BBC TV Guitar Series

Subject: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM

Start of a three-part history with Alan Yentob tonight, BBC1.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:27 AM

This is the 3rd thread about this one programme. It surely won't be THAT good . . .

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:09 AM

I think its going to be stinker...typical BBC dross. Same old farty footage of the same old farts. finished off with a 'hopeful' finale. You can almost write it yourself:-

'And even bright young hopefuls of the new folk music scene Seth Lakeman and Kate Rusby still count the old six strings as their best and most trusted friend!

Here is Puff Diddy with his new work incorporating samples of guitars played by ......yawn!'

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

I believe it will be looking at the development of the instrument, historically, and I must say I have enjoyed other A Yentob programmes.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: fat B****rd
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

Let's wait and see, eh ?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

I `ad that Alan Yentob in my cab the other day.( Funny name, it`s Botney backwards)
I said, "`ere Alan, on that Mudcat, they`re all talking about your guitar programme on the old tv."
`e said, "Are they? Whadda they reckon then?"
I said, "Well, most of `em seem to be looking forward to it although that weelittledrummer gave you a slagging."
`e said, "Well, whadda you expect from drummers. If the thing don`t go crash, bang ,wallop they`re not bleedin` interested!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:11 AM

toldya!
wotta loada cobblers!

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM

WLD cobblers??..was the show about shoes??

he he

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

Dear old Bert Weedon was in the programme - and, yes, I also bought his (as we used to call it) "Play With Yourself In A Day" book in 1964. Bless him - even the cheesy bits of him on TV! Really loved the clip of Wayne Henderson - who is NOT an old fart who's trotted out regularly on these programmes, but a man of genius.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:22 AM

Bert Weedon was great.Also a lot of other priceless stuff However,I feel the ridiculous bits of "old film"(eg of Greek gods etc were a total waste of time. And, more crucially, a waste of money. Just think how much of the budget went on those films. That could have been spent on interviewing a few more great guitarists and showing us clips of them, (it was meant to be a documentary about the guitar wasn't it?).
Basically it was the usual "celebrity finding out stuff" format for documentaries, whereas I have always preferred the "somebody who knows stuff to start with" type of thing.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:39 AM

Unbelievable crap, or the first twenty minutes was. I turned it off in disgust after that. What was that shot of a bittern doing in there? Yes I get it. Gittern, cittern, bittern. How about Bannockburn, comintern, Lucerne, Saturn or maybe even discern. As in "the discerning viewer would not be seen dead watching it".

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM

Unbelievable.....I sodding believed it.

Mr Henderson does indeed appear to be accomplished, but what of Alan Marshall, Stefan Sobell, Rob Armstrong, Roger BucKnall, George Lowden.... they could have have saved one bus fare at least!

Is this a new_thing:-

I can barely hold a guitar, but I think we should publicly fund a film about me trotting out all the facts that make coffee table books about the guitar such a regularly remaindered item in Words Bookshop.

I don't think I know anything about sunbathing in The Maldives. Can I do a documentary about it?

We need volunteers - is there anyone who knows absolutely nothing about the Pussycat Club in Bangkok?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Zen
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps I am alone here... but I generally enjoyed it and thought it was quite well done and informative for the most part.

Zen

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

I thoroughly enjoyed it though agree with Greg about the "pseudo" old films clips. I look forward to the rest of the series.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM

"We need volunteers - is there anyone who knows absolutely nothing about the Pussycat Club in Bangkok?"

I know quite a few people who know nothing about folk music. Quite a few of them have appeared on tv talking about folk music.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM

Surely we can overlook some of the more "exotic" items when we had a wonderful clip of Django, and John Etheridge's contribution; also, the man from Virginia building guitars was a joy.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM

No, I can't overlook the exotic items. I would have liked more about guitars and guitar players, as that was what it was billed as. It reminds me of the series of stuff they put out aq while back about those incredible old film they had discovered in a barrel in Bolton, or somewhere. (Mitchell and somebody, can't remember the names of the people who took the films). Anyway, instead of letting you watch lots of the films, they showed you a tiny fragment, and then some fake "old films" purporting to represent how "hilarious" it must have been when they were filming.
   Presumably they have a special "hilarious old film department" at the BBC where they manufacture this stuff, whether it is wanted or not.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

wouldn't it have been be better if that "wonderful" clip of Django had been part of a programme which befitted it?

Some time ago BBC4 did a programme on the harp. Yes it was bit 'I don't know much about the harp so I'm off to find someone who does'. And yes, it covered a bit of ground that personally didn't interest me. (Alan Stivell if you must know). But it was a serious well conceived look at an instrument which doesn't get too much coverage, and it was packed with an amazing amount of information about history and construction and playing techniques. So why do people like Alan Yentob insist on presenting us with unalloyed drivel in the guise of serious entertainment?

Something to do with ratings perhaps?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:11 PM

I guess you either like that sort of thing or you don't. And we obviously split into two camps.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Perhaps the programme wasnt made with the guitar cognescenti solely in mind.
I bet that theres quite a few would happily watch a whole series with John Etheridge analysing Djangos technique or having a peek inside various luthiers shops around the globe and exploring the process of tap tuning, but I would hardly be fair on the rest of the licence payers(but it would give a little respite from all the reality bollocks!!!!!)
As far as I'm concerned it wasn't perfect but for the first time in ages I'm going to make sure that I stop what I'm doing to watch a tv prog next week

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:23 AM

I used to work for the Beeb many, many years ago (1960s), and I think there is a huge difference between their position in broadcasting then and now. BBC Television and Independent Television had a monopoly in TV output - and could afford to make specialist programmes which appealed to a comparatively small section of the watching population. Think of the "Monitor" series and some of the arts programming of Huw Wheldon.

The position today is totally different, with a multiplicity of broadcasting and media production companies in competition, and the license fee constantly under threat. The dilemma for the Beeb now is whether to constantly go for ratings and reach the highest number of viewers, or whether to take the risk of making specialised programms which apeal to a minority but don't hit the ratings spot. There was an interesting debate on BBC4 recently which looked back at art history programmes over the years - ranging from "Civilisation" to "Rolf On Art" - which highlighted just that dilemma.

The BBC4 programme on the harp was just such an example of the older style, and an excellent production it was. I think they could have done a similar programme on the guitar, but it probably (in their ratings-tinted view) wouldn't have cut it. It was, after all, on BBC1. So, for me, the guitar programme was a bit of a curate's egg - good in parts.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:49 AM

"I used to work for the Beeb many, many years ago (1960s), and I think there is a huge difference between their position in broadcasting then and now."

You could certainly sing that if you had an air to it. Remember all those wonderful documentaries from the '70s and '80s? Civilisation, America, Life on Earth. Class productions presented by people who knew what they were talking about. Now, to stand a chance of getting on air, documentaries have to be fronted by a "celebrity". Never mind whether the celebrity knows or cares anything about the subject matter, as Griff Rhys Jones clearly did when he presented that excellent documentary on Thomas Hardy recently. Or as Alan Yentob clearly didn't when he presented that frightful mishmash last Sunday.

And it's not just documentaries. Remember I Claudius? Remember The Six Wives of Henry V111 and many more of similar ilk? Big Brother, I spit on you.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM

How the BBC did guitar programmes back in 1957 ...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM

I wonder what Jimmy Page's "biological research" actually turned out to be...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,JohnMc
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:58 AM

To take one part of the programme, it was the first time I had ever seen what book-matched timber in a guitar workshop looked like (though I had often read about it); the extinguishing of the lighted match was a revelation, the fact that the maker's name was burned on the wood, the actual scalloping of the bracing- all on film for the first time, for me at any rate.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:01 AM

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly - PM
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM

I wonder what Jimmy Page's "biological research" actually turned out to be...

of a gynaecological nature, by all accounts ...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:07 AM

"How the BBC did guitar programmes back in 1957 ..."

Ok., a lot of early tv was frightful. The early programme makers lacked experience and expertise, as that clip demonstrated. But what do we say now that tv makers have vast arrays of experience and expertise, and still make programmes which insult the intelligence of their audience?

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:17 AM

There was a huge change in the BBC in 1960 when Hugh Carleton-Greene became Director-General. He really did pull the organisation out its pre-war, classbound attitudes and a lot of the classy programming that went on from then on was down to his personality, energy and vision. He was, of course, detested by Mary Whitehouse - so he couldn't have been all bad.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Dazbo
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

Not watched it yet but what I think you are missing is the Alan Botney does "Art" tv not documentary. Personally, I'd rather watch this than Tracey Emin's bed :-)

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Silver Slug
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

I like Alan Yentob as a presenter and don't see what his lack of in depth knowledge has to do with his ability to get others to impart their expertise. I found the programme both entertaining and informative and I enjoyed particularly the clips of Segovia, Django Reinhardt and the US guitar workshop.

The BBC still commission excellent documentary series (David Attenborough's programmes, for example) and I think that some of the criticsm on here is unfounded.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM

A complete and utter load of shite.

I didn't last as long as Mr McCormick - I had had my guts full after about 10 minutes.

Guitar series my arse.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:50 AM

Good grief man its only a television programme after all is said and done

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM

hard to explain to civilians.

but basically the main objection is this:-

for untold thousands of us throughout England, and millions worldwide, the guitar is like the true cross used to be.

Its just about all we have left to believe in. It puts a glint in the eye and a tilt in the kilt. It is redemption and salvation.

It makes shit lives tolerable, shit jobs survivable.

It provides us with heroes and saints, for lots of us its a way of making a living, for others its something to live for.

Coleridge called church bells 'the poor man's only music.' and Joni Mitchel called the strings of her guitar 'the hexagram of heaven'- and I suppose that is what I'm driving at.

In a gross and materialistic world - the guitar is a voice of spirituality and passion that many of us hear.

I'm not sure that Alan Yentob has even the noticed the fire this instrument lights within people.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

You can complain that the rose bush has thorns......

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Silver Slug
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

"In a gross and materialistic world - the guitar is a voice of spirituality and passion that many of us hear. I'm not sure that Alan Yentob has even the noticed the fire this instrument lights within people."

Well, I have wanted to light a fire under any number of performers I've had the misfortune to hear, and it would have been an added bonus to use their instruments as fuel! And believe me, I would do it with passion!

So, is it Mr. Yentob to whom you object or is it the content of the programme? Don't get me wrong, it wan't perfect; it could have done without the actors and the stupid little sketches, for instance. But I enjoyed the hour and I did actually learn a little about the origins of the guitar.

I do wonder sometimes at some of the carping that goes on about the BBC. I've seen what I consider to be irrational criticsm of Mike Harding's programme, coverage of Cambridge Festival, Jools Holland's show and so on. I consider it irrational because there doesn't appear to be anything from any other source to which the BBC can be compared.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM

Silver Slug: because the BBC is very good does not mean it couldn't get better. I expect artists to spend their lives trying to get better at what they do(which is what 99% of them try to). I expect the BBC to do the same.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:44 PM

we had a wonderful clip of Django, and John Etheridge's contribution; also, the man from Virginia building guitars

I missed all of that. I very nearly switched off after the first section - ooh guitars, remember guitars, old footage of guitars, Bert Weedon playing guitar, first guitar I ever had was a ukulele, well the first guitar I ever had was a Fender Stratocaster, yeah well I've never even picked up a guitar and I'm presenting the programme, ooh look that one's got knobs on, wonder what they do... It was a 90-second introductory montage stretched to a quarter of an hour (or maybe it just felt that long). Then there was some history, which was good - but somehow even that managed to be simultaneously rushed and boring. Then Mrs Radish fell asleep and I thought, am I enjoying this enough to watch it on my own? And I decided I wasn't.

Django, though. Sorry to miss that bit.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:51 PM

You missed a treat. The Django was great. That's why I resent the rubbish...we could have had more time(and money) for Django....Eddie Lang...Robert Johnson....Julian Bream....Bert Jansch....Jeff Beck...Les Paul...Dave Laibmann..fill in whoever you like(we'll doubtless get some of these in times to come, but I would just like as much guitar as possible).

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:01 AM

What I'm NOT looking forward to in the next programme - because I've seen them over and over again - are the usual supects: Pete Townsend bashing his Strat on the club floor, Jimi Hendrix setting fire to his Strat, blah, blah. We had a quick preview of these cliches in programme 1 (and yes, I know they're "classic" bits). Like the first programme, I shall video the next one and fast forward through the boring bits. The Django clip was great, for example - but it's been on YouTube, in full, for years.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:51 AM

In a gross and materialistic world - the guitar is a voice of spirituality and passion that many of us hear.

I suppose having a virtuoso guitarist as an older brother would hardly endear me to guitars, much less their ubiquitousness with respect to instrumental diversity as a whole, but I'm still moved by WLD's words.

I wonder if they'll feature the playing of the late & legendary Derek Bailey? Once of the few guitarists whose playing has ever made any real sense to me, especially with regard to spirituality & passion...

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:23 AM

"I wonder if they'll feature the playing of the late & legendary Derek Bailey? Once of the few guitarists whose playing has ever made any real sense to me, especially with regard to spirituality & passion..."

Probably not. They equate spirituality and passion to the antics of drug- or alcohol- (or both-) fuelled 'superstars' bashing the guitar on the floor, or setting fire to it.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM

I havn't read all the thread yet but some comments show the old saying It's always best to criticise a programme if you haven't seen it!!!!
I, on the other hand, was apprehensive at the start but, by God, I'm glad I watched it all.
It was the first of a series and as such had to get the majority audience interested; which the bald facts of the history of the guitar would not have done, no matter how learned the presenter.
I got sidetracked by the link earlier to Jimmy Page and then by the normal process of time well spent ended up here.
Now this is guitar playing!!!

Have a shufty and get goose bumps like I did.

Andy

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

Did Derek Bailey ever play any music? I couldn't find any in any of the Youtube clips.
maybe I wasn't listening hard enough....
Ray

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:34 AM

Did Derek Bailey ever play any music? I couldn't find any in any of the Youtube clips.
maybe I wasn't listening hard enough....

Doubtless you weren't, Ray. Try this, and if you still can't find it I suggest a hearing aid.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:47 AM

"I wonder if they'll feature the playing of the late & legendary Derek Bailey? One of the few guitarists whose playing has ever made any real sense to me"

God, that is just SO cool ....

I wish I was cool too.

Not being cool, however, I have always reckoned Derek Bailey to be a bit of a wanker, and the guitarists who make sense to me are Leo Kottke, Martin Simpson, Doyle Dykes, Tony McManus, Blind Blake and Roy Buchanan.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM

Why the puerile hostility, Murray? Open your ears to the beauty of the man and his music. Nothing to do with being cool; like Roy Buchanan, Bailey was an unassuming master of his instrument...

Will they feature Roy Buchanan too I wonder? If not - The Messiah Will Come Again

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:21 AM

IB, tbh, I don't and never will get Bailey's "music" , but for you to say that Bailey was one of the "few guitarists whose playing ever made any real sense to you " is SUCH an elitist statement, implying a moral superiority over plebs like me who just like a good tune.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM

I've dipped into Derek Bailey's music, on and off, for many years and - try as I may - I can't say it moves me with any spirituality and passion. Perhaps he unconsciously - and ironically, considering he was trying so hard to break the conventional mould - moved himself into a musical dead end. I don't say that he isn't spiritualised and passionate when he's making his "non-idiomatic" (his phrase) music, just that it doesn't do it for me. If I want spirituality and passion, then just a few simple notes from Richard Thompson will do that for me.

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:12 AM

I make a simple statement of personal taste and I'm accused of elitism? Much of my early musical education came care of my older brother who was passionate about the guitar - I got everything from Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, Micky Jones, Derek Bailey, Sonny Sharrock, Hans Reichel, Fred Frith, Daevid Allen, Robert Frip, Frank Zappa, Roy Buchanan, etc. all of whom I dearly love to this day but I still find the essence of the thing in Bailey's playing. As a young teenager I used to sit enchanted by Derek Bailey during Company Week at The Roundhouse; no sense of any elitism or pretension, just the pure beauty of sound and the craft of musicianship. Moral superiority? Wind in your neck, man!

Never did get Richard Thomson though - as musical dead-ends go they don't any deader than that, but that's just me. I like my rock out there, my jazz free and my folk trad, but each to their own, and the guitar is everyman's!

Subject: RE: BBC TV Guitar Series
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

Each to his own, IB - each to his own. As you saw Bailey as a teenager, I've seen Thompson many times - and each time was as different, in its way, from the previous time. Sorry you don't get him but I'll think of you the next time I play "The Dimming Of The Day" - which will be on Friday night. :-)