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BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex

GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 05 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM
Mrs.Duck 05 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM
Jean(eanjay) 05 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM
Mrs.Duck 05 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Oct 08 - 03:31 PM
Ebbie 05 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM
sapper82 05 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM
Rabbi-Sol 05 Oct 08 - 04:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM
wysiwyg 05 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 05 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,lox 05 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM
Art Thieme 05 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM
Rapparee 05 Oct 08 - 06:17 PM
Mrrzy 05 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM
Murray MacLeod 05 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM
Rapparee 05 Oct 08 - 08:36 PM
Peace 05 Oct 08 - 10:22 PM
Rapparee 05 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM
s&r 06 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Oct 08 - 03:53 AM
The Villan 06 Oct 08 - 04:09 AM
Acorn4 06 Oct 08 - 04:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 08 - 05:01 AM
jonm 06 Oct 08 - 06:15 AM
The Villan 06 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM
Paul Burke 06 Oct 08 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 06 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM
Jean(eanjay) 06 Oct 08 - 07:59 AM
catspaw49 06 Oct 08 - 08:01 AM
Bee 06 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM
Georgiansilver 06 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM
Rapparee 06 Oct 08 - 09:23 AM
Grab 06 Oct 08 - 09:24 AM
Bee 06 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Oct 08 - 02:45 PM
John MacKenzie 06 Oct 08 - 03:01 PM

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Subject: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

I was reading in the newspaper today that a 22 year old British teacher has been given a suspended sentence - and been put on the sex-offenders' register - for having sex - which was consensual - with a 16 year old pupil at her school. Her union is up in arms about this, saying that the way things are worded at the moment, she could also be prosecuted for having sex with an 18 year old at the school where she works.( And, I would add, surely college professors are teachers ). Where does the general law stand at the moment in the UK - and the USA - with regards to the "age of consent" and sexual relations. I always understood that, in the UK, sixteen was the age of consent i.e. a person could not be prosecuted for having consensual sex with someone 16 and over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

I think it's different if you are in a position which gives you an unfair advantage, or a position of power, such as a teacher over a student.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

I think there is still a grey area when an adult who is deemed to have some position of authority over a minor persuades them to have sex. The teacher pupil relationship gives the adult a different status than say someone met at a club. The question of consent is put in doubt where it could be deemed that the adult had some sway over the minor and was in a position of trust. It is also a question of professionalism as with doctors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

OK, a 16 year old - in the UK - goes to work for a firm and has sex with the boss. Will the boss end up being prosecuted and have his name added to the sex offenders register?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

In a firm nobody employed there will be under the age of 16 but in a school there will be many pupils under that age and I suppose they may be seen as "at risk". It really is a matter of professionalism and is best avoided! The sex-offenders' register is going a bit far IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM

Similar things have been in the news with youth pastors and teen church-goers here in the U.S. It's still an uneven relationship, though the latest story I read the pastor wasn't prosecuted.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

I want to get this straight! In the UK, can a person - apart from a teacher, it seems - be prosecuted for having ( consensual ) sex with a 16 year old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

1. In the UK teachers are subject to a stricter rule of law than others.
2. Why couldn't I have had a teacher like that at school? I still think fondly of Miss Barfoot, who taught singing when I was about 12 and there was a junior matron who had a bit of a thing with a chap called Peter Bullas, much to the envy of the rest of us...


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM

Yes, anyone in a position of authority regarding the child, youth worker, Scout Leader, etc etc. The catch all phrase is 'Abuse of authority'
It's a hard line to draw. What does one do about older men/women, who have a taste/obsession for much younger partners.
I find it creepy, and it disgusts me, but it happens. I mean some young girls are very attractive to me as a normal heterosexual male, but I would no more dream of doing anything about it, than fly in the air.
As for the 'Sex Offenders Register' that is another catch all, which classes all sexual perversions and misdemeanours in the same category.
It needs to be better defined in my opinion.

XG


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM

Quiet possibly if it was felt that there was some level of coercion on the part of the boss. A 16 year old is still a minor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:31 PM

16 year olds are coerced into sex all the time; Take the classic line " if you really love me, then you wouldn't say no".


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

" if you really love me, then you wouldn't say no". Tuenesmith

That line would typically be used by a peer, not by a person 15 or more years older.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM

Ebbie, are we saying it's wrong for older people to have sex with younger people? Would you say, for example, that it is wrong for a 40 year old to have non-pressured, consensual sex with a 16 year old? Or, is " if you really love, then you wouldn't say no" pressurised sex involving 16 and 17 year olds more acceptable in your view?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM

She didn't say that either. This is a serious subject, and deserves to be treated as such, and not made into a clash of personalities. The subject is Teacher/Pupil Sex.
We can all quote scenarios, and ask whether someone agrees or disagrees,
You read, and you saw when you were in school, pupils with a crush on a teacher. It is an abuse of power if a teacher takes advantage of this immature happening, which is almost a rite of passage for a school kid.

XG


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: sapper82
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

So what about the situation where you have a 24yo (or thereabouts) teacher with a 17 or 18yo pupil who find they are getting close together?

In the past, that situation has led to several quite happy marriages, yet by today's standards is illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

So what about the situation where you have a 24yo (or thereabouts) teacher with a 17 or 18yo pupil who find they are getting close together?

You wait. As simple as that. If the 24-year-old is too immature to see the school child as a peer instead of a student, too bad.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

A teacher is 'In loco parentis'
I'm sure if it was a parent you would be outraged.

XG


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:44 PM

Here in the USA it is considered statutory rape if the minor is under 18.

Here in Rockland County, NY we recently had the case of Beth Modica, an assistant attorney for the Town Of Ramapo, a former assistant DA, and the wife of the Chief of Police for the Village of Spring Valley.
She had sex on numerous ocassions with the male friends of her teenage children who were ages 16 and 17.

She is now serving a sentence of 3 years in state prison. She has also lost her license to practice law as well as custody of her 3 teenage children. Her husband has also filed for divorce.

SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

In England and Wales, the law is quite simple. The age of consent is 16 (Sexual Offenses Act 2003). However, it is illegal for a person to engage in sexual activity with an individual under the age of 18 if they are in a position of trust in relation to that individual. This includes teachers, care givers, guardians, etc. (paragraph 44 (3), (4).
From Wikipedia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

I don't think that the law can have it both ways. If it isn't against the law for a person - of any age - to have consensual sex with a 16 year old - then teachers shouldn't be treated as a prosecutable, special case. If 16 is the age of consent - then that should be that; of course, whether or not a teacher's position in a school would be tenable if such a relationship were to become common knowledge is another thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM

Law and school policy and professional standards may not all be the same.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

Thanks Q, but that information puts things into a very, very grey area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM

Oh, all you blokes - thin back to when you were say from 12 to 17. You'd have given your right arm to have a pretty female schoolteacher jump your bones. Too many po-faced gits have formulated our laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM

Richard,

As with all things - the reality and the idea may well have turned out to be very different things.

Though I will admit to having had at least one teacher I would have been interested in discovering the truth of that quandary with ...

In your case it sounds like te laws were there to protect your teachers from you ... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

I suggest that all of you read THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF BOXCAR BERTHA as told to Dr. Ben Reitman. It is still available. A great read.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:17 PM

Any time a person in authority (e.g., a supervisor, a military superior) has sex with someone under that authority the relationship is suspect. As the business saying has it, "Don't get your meat where you get your bread." The military calls it "command rape" even if it is "consensual"; in the business world the superior might lose their job or worse. The assumption is that the superior is guilty until proven otherwise, and sometimes even then. It's bad judgment on the part of the superior, and having worked in a situation where a supervisor was married (after a long affair) to the boss it is not good for the organization; morale problems are the least of it.

Any time a person has sex, consensual or not, with someone under the age of consent, that person is guilty of statutory rape. Period. We knew this when I was growing up and we knew what the penalties were. As they say, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

There have recently been cases in the US where a teacher has sex with a student, mostly recently one who ran off to Mexico with the boy (13, I think he was, but she "considered him a man"). It's still statutory rape with "command rape" as icing on the cake -- not to mention unprofessional. Being on the sexual offender list is the least of the woman's worries....


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM

Abuse of power isn't always abuse of the person over whom you have power, but it is still abuse of power...

And it could be the 15-year-old twitchbiscuit who has the power!


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

Richard Bridge talking sense there imo.

so a 16 year old male has sex with a 22 year old teacher.

Christ Almighty , he could be damaged for life, couldn't he ?

NOT !

When I was 16 there was a 22 year old French language assistant at my school, and I would have given my eye teeth to have had sex with her.

Unfortunately my French chat-up lines weren't quite as effective in these days as they became later ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:36 PM

True, but if the other person had an ounce of sense she would have responded with something like, "Ah, mon petit enfant, tu est trop, trop jeune pour une femme vrai comme moi. Fait-tu le jeu avec toi-même."   (Mind you, my French isn't what it once was.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:22 PM

Teachers are deemed by law to be acting 'in loco parentis'--that is 'in place of the parents'. It is wrong. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

Exactly, Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM

I believe that the law should impose responsibilities over and above the norm for people in charge of young people. Up to sixteen there is an opportunity for predatory adults to groom children,, then on the sixteenth birthday reap the harvest.


Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:53 AM

I'm not getting at Richard here, just using his example!

It seems there may be double standards at work within the male perception.

Oh, all you blokes - think back to when you were say from 12 to 17. You'd have given your right arm to have a pretty female schoolteacher jump your bones. Too many po-faced gits have formulated our laws.

If a boy has sex with a (female) teacher he's a 'lucky sod', and the teacher was generous with her affections.
If a girl has sex with a (male) teacher then she is automatically assumed to have been corrupted & the teacher is a 'dirty old man'

Recently Jeremy Vine (Radio 2) did his lunchtime discussion/phone in on the subject of why there are so few men employed as nursery teachers, or even as primary school teachers. The general mood seemed to be that women who cared for children had the maternal instinct, while men who cared for children had questionable motives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: The Villan
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:09 AM

>>while men who cared for children had questionable motives<<

What an insult to the majority of men. The majority of men are not like that. Its the few once again, who get everybody branded the same.

I wonder how many teachers in the UK, know that it is illegal to have sex with anybody under 18?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:49 AM

There are two issues here, one the question of age of consent, then other of being in a professional relationship.

The doctor/patient scenario is another that can cause problems and this doesn't necessarily relate to age - a patient would normally , I would think,change practice if a relationship develops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:01 AM

Did anyone see that prog the Ester Ranzen (sp?) did on TV the other day? It concentrated on the issues of teachers and adults in general being overly worried by child protection laws.

It used examples such as the young girl who suffered dreadful sunburn because the teachers could not apply sun cream to her. Worst of all it showed two young actors (7 and 9 year olds) in a shopping mall, acting lost. Something like 1000 people ignored them with a tiny minority going to their aid.

Everyone accepts that the most vunerable in our society do need protecting from sexual predators, but we do need to temper this with some sense. Draconian laws, meant to protect children, are not putting them in more harm in many other ways. Sad.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: jonm
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:15 AM

Villan, it is not illegal for a teacher in the UK to have sex with ANY person between the ages of 16 and 18, only with those for whom they are in a responsible position (i.e. at their educational institution) and that is also stipulated in their contract of employment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: The Villan
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM

But does that state that they go on the sex offenders list?


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:25 AM

Here's where a pupil tried to give the teachers a treat, but made a hash of it.

Should the girl have been prosecuted? Someone could have driven and crashed as a result.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM

There's a programme on ITV1, in the UK, tonight at 8pm called "To Sir with Love" which will look into this subject. BTW, the lad involved in the case that started this discussion is claiming that he has been taked advantage of. I bet there's a civil lawsuit pending!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM

Hell, those hash cakes must have been strong. Back in the 60s and 70s we used to do a bit of puff because the breathalysers then could not detect it. No-one pranged it as a result.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:59 AM

If a doctor who is in charge of vulnerable patients, eg a psychiatrist, has sex with a patient (even if that patient is older than 18) then the doctor can be charged with rape.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:01 AM

Nice to know there is a junior auxillary in The International Cougar Club.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Bee
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

Nigel Parsons, while I understand there is some kneejerk idiocy about men caring for young children, here the main reason there's a long tradition of few men in childcare has always been payscale. The very large daycare where I worked for almost 25 years made continued efforts to hire male caregivers, since a lot of the children had no dad and we felt more male role models would be a good thing. We never managed to get men that we hired (with two exceptions) to stay very long. The work was too intense and the pay was too low. If a man was smart enough to work with kids, there was always a job with much better pay that he could take, in construction or elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

I worked in Childcare for 30yrs... ten of which were with a group of teenage girls.. which could number up to 42 in total. I was the youngest and the most attractive of the males in the establishment (sorry, not bragging but it was a fact) and many of the girls had a crush on me at one time or another. Although there were girls who I found attractive physically, I would never have abused my position, as a parent substitute, (In Loco Parentis) to indulge any desires I might have... simply because it was against the law and not 'the done thing' morally in any case. However, as I said, I found some of the girls attractive and therein lies the problem... for SOME men. There are some men who are sexual opportunists and will take chances just to gratify their lusts with any woman who is the least bit willing and including for some... women or girls of any age.... Each person who works with underage children in the UK has to undergo Police and background checks... but sadly these checks don't prove a persons character or reveal their inner desires so the problem of 'Adult, child' relationships will rear its head occasionally.
On a personal level, I see no problem with an 18 yr old and a 24 yr old having a relationship but if there are legal reasons why they should not... THEN THEY SHOULD NOT!!!!!
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:23 AM

We run police background checks on every new hire and every potential volunteer, regardless of where they will work in the Library.

We've had some folks back out of volunteering when they find this out....


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Grab
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:24 AM

Nigel, I suspect there are a lot of girls who'd have crushes on a 22-year-old male teacher (or older, for that matter). It's not a one-way street.

I don't actually see that there's anything wrong with this if both sides are consensual, but there's *so* much scope for coercion that it's massively unprofessional. If you really need to have a relationship with someone you're teaching, then you stop teaching them. In many larger schools it'd be perfectly possible to move the kid to a different class, or for the teacher to swap with another teacher.

Nigel, your point is a completely different one, which is whether men are encouraged (or "allowed" by society) to do particular jobs. Or even if they know those jobs exist - a couple of years ago I went for physio at Addenbrookes (one of the larger hospitals in Britain), and you wouldn't need both hands to count the male physio graduates over the last 30 years against over a thousand female graduates. Nor has there ever, in Britain, been any effort to attract men to childcare. The other way round, my engineering course had 5 women against 75 men, and there is *major* funding going into improving this ratio. I completely agree that this is unjust, and it makes me very angry.

But in this case, there actually *is* sexual equality going on - an older woman doing this is held responsible under the same laws that you'd more usually expect to be guarding against predatory older men.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Bee
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

Sixteen to eighteen year olds often appear to be more sophistcated and emotionally together than they actually are, IMO. Sure, a sixteen year old can have a serious crush on a teacher or employer, combined with raging hormones, but the 'crush' may be seriously complicated by the 'authority' part of the equation.

Had a friend in highschool, she got pregnant at sixteen by her teacher from her previous school, listened to all the BS he filled her with, moved in with him, things went downhill fast from there. Wrecked her life, really; she never got back on her feet.

I could be wrong, but I don't think she'd have just trusted and followed a boy her own age, a peer. She'd have seen him as clearly an equal, equally likely to be wrong. The addition of authority to such relationships is what sinks the boat on the participants being equally able to make informed choices. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:45 PM

Mind you, I have reservations about a bloke who would shag a vegetable on legs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:01 PM

That is an abysmal remark Richard, whoever you refer to.


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