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Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk

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MAG 05 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM
MAG 06 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM
Gedpipes 06 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM
quokka 06 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM
Mark Ross 06 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM
MAG 06 Oct 08 - 09:18 PM
Acme 06 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM
katlaughing 06 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM
Mark Ross 06 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM
katlaughing 07 Oct 08 - 12:02 AM
johnross 07 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM
Bryn Pugh 07 Oct 08 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,echoesinthecopse 07 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM
M.Ted 07 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM
M.Ted 07 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM
Ernest 07 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Neil D 07 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Jim 08 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,mg 08 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM
MAG 11 Oct 08 - 09:14 PM
M.Ted 11 Oct 08 - 09:42 PM
johnross 12 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM
M.Ted 12 Oct 08 - 11:52 PM
Peace 13 Oct 08 - 12:03 AM
M.Ted 13 Oct 08 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 13 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM
oldhippie 13 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM
M.Ted 13 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 13 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM
MAG 14 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Old Righty 14 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM
M.Ted 14 Oct 08 - 11:16 PM
MAG 15 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM
The Sandman 15 Oct 08 - 02:32 PM
M.Ted 15 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM
The Sandman 15 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM
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Subject: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: MAG
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

Did anybody else catch this this in NPR? The topic hooked me into listening: they took some no-talent hacks who were sort of right-wing house acts, interviewed them ,and seemed to be saying this is equally valid folk music with what we know and love.

It was terrible hack music, which only a die-hard could love.

Why would they bother putting this out? Sign of the times?


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: MAG
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM

Nobody else heard this? Thought it was NPR bending over backward to be politically even?


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: Gedpipes
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM

Give us a little bit more of a clue.
what is NPR
what is hack music
what is a right- wing house act
etc


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: quokka
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM

NPR ( I think) is National Public Radio in the US - they generally are a little different to the mainstream commercial media - we get to listen to it here in Australia a few times a week for an hour or so (not that many people know about it) and it generally has a bit more depth to its interviews and subjects than you would hear or read in the main press or broadcast media. Having said that, obviously sometimes it has some weird stuff. Hey, maybe they're trying to get more of an audience by being a bit controversial!


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: Mark Ross
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM

Do you know when it aired, who was on, something that will enable those of us who missed it to find it on their website?

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: MAG
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:18 PM

Yes, all, I meant National Public Radio, the show is "Studio 360," it aired where I am Sunday 10/5 at 2:00. If you get NPR, it should be the most recent show. The website should be something like: studio360@npr.org


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: Acme
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM

I heard it. The program highlighted the fact that not all folkies were left leaning, and I think they made the point fairly well. But these singers weren't very well known.

Here is a link to the program, aired October 3, 2008. The program is from WNYC.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM

And, anyone, anywhere with an internet connection can listen to NPR, anytime. It's worth it...public radio, non-profit, a bit better than listening to the for-profit pundits.:-)


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: Mark Ross
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM

Thanks for posting that link, if it wasn't true I could laugh a little louder.


Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:02 AM

For heavens sake! Just had a chance to listen. I am glad they were NOT well-known!


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: johnross
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM

I heard the piece. I thought it was an amusing description of a mostly-forgotten footnote to the folk music revival. Those conservative "folksingers" were essentially preaching to the choir--their entire audience was groups like Young Americans for Freedom and Young Republicans, unlike other singers and songs that made it to mainstream attention, such as "The Ballad of the Green Berets." And taken on those terms, they were entirely legitimate as "entertainment" for their intended audience.

And it must be said that they didn't have a monopoly on heavy-handed, beat-the-audience-over-the-head topical songs. The ones we remember are the good ones, written and performed by singer-songwriters like Phil Ochs and Len Chandler who had talent and skill. Plenty of others by people on the left were just as bad as the conservative songs included in the radio piece. And like the right-wing groups, the people who sang bad left-wing songs never had significant record contracts.

At the end of the produced item, the host asked listeners to tell the program about other "political art" that was "under the radar." That's why they broadcast the story -- not because they were advocating the political message.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:46 AM

Right wing folk (music, presumably) is a contradiction in terms. IMABHO.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: GUEST,echoesinthecopse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM

Depends what is meant by 'rightwing'. Does being 'not leftwing' still define you as an unethical bigot? It's clear nowadays that the left-of-centre can be said to have been guilty of hypocrisy and signally lacking integrity: v-a-v much of the Left's (in Europe anyway) broad betrayal of free unions, equality and gay rights in the ME. We can but weep for the sons of Tolpuddle - it's all for the greater good no doubt :~/ At least during Thatcherism -it might be said- we knew where the house of the enemies of egalitarianism was.

The Hon. William Bragg 50, Earl of West Dorset, has made it known that he wishes to put clear, blue water between himself and the SWP.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM

Studio 360 is one of my favorite things on NPR--their focus, for those hopelessly dense among you(and you know who you are!), is the interesting and peculiar. The story after this one is about a man who believes that he bought the Urim & Thummin at Goodwill for 69 cents.

And yes, I remember the YAF and their songbook, which is still amusing as it ever was. And I remember "The Goldwaters", and johnross is about right, we are flip sides of the same coin. And say what you will about the songs, Katlaughing, the sad and sorry truth is that, their numbers were much smaller, their songs were ridiculous, but they were the heralds for Reagan, Bush, Gingrich, McCain, et al.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM

And sorry, if you expect us to know about the freaking Tolpuddle Martyrs, you all can at least Google NPR--it don't cost nuthin'--


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: Ernest
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

"Folk" refers to the population, not any specific part of it. Therefore it can`t be claimed by any special group/party but includes also those of different political persuasions.

So right-wing folk music is not a contradiction in terms. Just that it isn`t popular doesn`t mean it doesn`t exist. Think of songs from the era of the american civil war/reconstruction period: there are a lot that are considered racist, still they are folksongs.

Bascon Lamar Lunsford is considered right-wing, still he was known as a folksong-collector and folk-singer etc.

It is the folk-revival that gave the impression that folk has to tend to the left, because most of its representative people are/were left-wing.

Even if statistics would show that most folk-musicians are leaning to the left that is not a mandatory precondition.

In a less political and more musical context: Would you exclude someone from singing shanties if he never sailed to sea?

Best wishes
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

I remember a mockumentary from several years ago called "Bob Roberts". It starred Tim Robbins as a conservative folksinger running for Senate. He was a sort of anti-Dylan and I remember one of his songs was "The Times They Are A-changin Back". Excellent satire.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

John Ross said,"And it must be said that they didn't have a monopoly on heavy-handed, beat-the-audience-over-the-head topical songs. The ones we remember are the good ones, written and performed by singer-songwriters like Phil Ochs and Len Chandler who had talent and skill. Plenty of others by people on the left were just as bad as the conservative songs included in the radio piece. And like the right-wing groups, the people who sang bad left-wing songs never had significant record contracts."

Could he have been thinking of Barry McGuire's Eve Of Destruction?


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

Why should liking a particular kind of music tie in with politics? It is like saying liking a particular flower is reserved for those with certain persuasians. Or a particular perfume. Or certain natural scenic beauties. Way too much is linked together that should be unlinked and reassembled person by person, according to his/her lights, not what the controlling class or culture has designated to be so. mg


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: MAG
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:14 PM

Thanks for checking it out, all.

I agree it is a show for the odd and peculiar. Not always worth catching.

The show did not say anything about leftwingers whose political music sucked. I have certainly heard enough of those. It was solely about cashing in on the popularity of folk music to push a point of view.

hence, better left on the cutting room floor of history.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:42 PM

I disagree--I would say that Studio 360 is always worth catching--there's always something interesting, something you've never thought about, something you've never heard about, or a perspective that hadn't occurred to you.

The idea that the piece was better left on the cutting room floor of history is disturbing to me, because I liked the piece, and even enjoyed the music. You seem to be saying that I should have been allowed to hear it because you didn't like it.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: johnross
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM

It' probably futile to hope that this doesn't open a "what is folk music" thrash, but there's a category of enteertainers who used acoustical instruments and polished but relatively plain arrangements who were/are someplace on the edge between "folk" and "pop." The right-wing groups in the Studio 360 piece were mostly in that category, just as groups like the Brothers Four and New Christy Minstrels, who were considered "folk" to the general public.

It's a perfectly legitimate genre, but it's a different genre from traditional folk musicians or revival performers who use traditional material and forms.

In this platform, where we are all presumably more knowledgeable about the shades of difference, it's fair to argue that those righties were not "folk musicians." But neither were many other, more visible and more popular performers who were called "folk musicians" during the same period.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 11:52 PM

I don't think you can argue that they weren't folk musicians. And I don't think you can argue that the popular performers weren't folk musicians. That's what everybody called them, and that's what a lot of people think of now when you say "folk music".

To be honest, I don't know what point there is in saying that something that everyone calls something is something else. As far as "legitimate genres"--I'd be hard pressed to figure out what an illegitimate genre was.

I liked that music. It was funny. Maybe it wasn't intended to be funny, but the funniest things aren't--


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:03 AM

Bird don't fly on one wing.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:57 AM

A rather Manichean point, Peace.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

Isn't "right-wing folk" an oxymoron?? I confess being, more or less, apolitical where music is concerned. I try not to be rude or insensitive in my choice of material and tend to play what I like. I'm not naive about the role folk music, and other forms, have had in social progress and politics, but I haven't chosen to go there on a regular basis. As they said in the sixties, "different strokes for different folks."


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM

"Isn't "right-wing folk" an oxymoron?? "

Actually, it is far from being an oxymoron. The early roots of the folk revival were very conservative and attempted to preserve a history that might not have ever really existed. Look at Cecil Sharp and his vision of an idylic country life or even Henry Ford and his preservation efforts. John Lomax was very conservative as well.   It really wasn't until the 1940's when the "left" recognized that the folk movement could be co-opted to get the message out. The influence of the left, at least in this country, really had a major impact and the conservative side seemed to diminish - unless you get to a bluegrass festival!!!


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: oldhippie
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

Reminds me of the old Marshall Dodge written/produced LP, "Folk Songs For Conservatives".


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM

You're forgetting Joe Hill, Ron--did you lose your Little Red Songbook?


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM

Ron:

I'm certainly old enough to recognize the truth in what you say about the earlier days of folk music. Thanks for reminding some of us that it didn't all begin in the 1960's.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: MAG
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM

My point originally was that the show was about what they called "right-wing folk," but was actually about a very small number of performers whose sole intent was to be a counterweight to the progressive folk singers of the 60's.

Nothing about Burl Ives, or Theo Bikel, or any of the folks a lrady mentioned.

Not really about "right-wing folk." So why??


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: GUEST,Old Righty
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

Well, I'm an old right-leaning folkie, so I suppose I should comment on this thread. The artists mentioned in the piece deserve their anonymity. On the other hand, there are plenty of leftist folk artists whose songs are equivalently political - and just as bad. I've had my share of uncomfortable times with the "normal" run-of-the-mill lefties who can't imagine that there's any possible alternative political point of view to their own. And there's plenty of cringe-worthy left-wing stuff out there. Good God, have you never been forced to endure a Fred Small album?

(Aside: the most political I've ever been tempted to get was to write a reply to "Cranes Over Hiroshima" about how the tragedy of the bomb headed off the far greater tragedy that would have been the conventional invasion of the Japanese home islands -- but I've never performed it. I felt better after writing it, so its purpose was met.)

Of course, I don't make that big of a deal over politics; what's the point? Sing your songs, enjoy what you can & clap politely for those who foist their politics on an audience in songs you don't yourself agree with. There are just as many insufferable folks who agree with you politically as there are on the other side.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 11:16 PM

if you really need an explanation of "Why?", MAG, here it is:

This music was profiled not out of any interest in politics, or out of any intent to present a "balanced" view of folk music, but because it is "outsider" music-also called " fringe music," "strange music", "weird music" and a number of other things. It's music that features one or more extreme elements that take it outside of the realms of what is generally acceptable, or even listenable.

Beyond that, I think that you're being really tedious about this all, and ought to just try to get over it.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: MAG
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

And you could just not read the thread, Ted.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:32 PM

Cecil Sharp was a socialist.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

Aw, gee, MAG, I liked the 360 segment, and I would have missed it if it hadn't been for reading the thread. Thanks for posting it.

And thanks, Captain Birdseye, for mentioning that--it's very important thing to know, for a lot of reasons.


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Subject: RE: Studio 360 segment: right-wing folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM

Cecil James Sharp was born on the 22nd of November in 1859, in Denmark Hill, South London, the eldest boy in a family of nine. His father was a slate merchant in Tooley Street, near London Bridge, who had a taste for archaeology and was referred to lovingly by Sharp as 'The General'. His mother was of Welsh and Italian extraction. He was a nervous boy who was 'highly sensitive to noises'. Fortunately his parents were fond of Handel and Mozart. "An early and vivid recollection was the sound of a brass band in the street when he was in bed; in his ecstasy he wept" (Karpeles, 1933, p.4). When he was eight he was sent to a private boarding school in Brighton. At ten he went to Uppingham, the only British public school where music was taken seriously. He entered Cambridge in 1879 at the age of 20 to read mathematics, but mostly he played piano. At Cambridge he was much shaken by Charles Kingsley's Aalton Locke, which featured the Chartist rally of 10th April 1848, and was influenced by the Christian Socialists. It was here that he first met Charles Marson and George Bernard Shaw. He was later to become a member of the Fabians.
The Fabian Society is a British intellectual socialist movement, whose purpose is to advance the principles of Social democracy via gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary means.


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