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Not bad for an Irish woman (Enya)

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Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 08 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Betsy at Work 06 Oct 08 - 05:35 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM
Mr Red 06 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 06 Oct 08 - 07:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Oct 08 - 09:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM
Paul Burke 06 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM
VirginiaTam 06 Oct 08 - 01:46 PM
Beer 06 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Oct 08 - 05:33 PM
VirginiaTam 06 Oct 08 - 05:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 08 - 06:01 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,beachcomber 07 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 08 - 01:12 PM
VirginiaTam 07 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Oct 08 - 03:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 08 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 08 - 04:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 08 - 08:00 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 08 - 03:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 08 - 01:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 08 - 04:46 AM
mauvepink 10 Oct 08 - 06:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 08 - 06:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Oct 08 - 07:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 08 - 07:07 AM
Folk Form # 1 10 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM
mauvepink 10 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM
mauvepink 10 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM
melodeonboy 10 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM
mauvepink 10 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM
mauvepink 10 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM
mauvepink 10 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,mg 10 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 08 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 08 - 05:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 08 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 08 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM
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Subject: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:46 AM

Enya was just on the radio.

She's not a bad singer for an Irish woman.

Just thought I would let you know:-)

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:35 AM

Dave , you naughty boy !!!!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

Snork!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM

Yes but is it Folk?


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:59 AM

Daniel O'Donnell is not a bad singer for an Irishman.
Come on Danny, just one more chorus of
"Fields Of At Henry...Pretty please"


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:41 AM

I love Daniel!

So does my 85 year old neighbour, Iris. In fact she has called her cockatiel, Daniel. And she talks to Daniel all day. I bought her a Daniel O'Donnell cruet back from hloidays and I have to e-mail the Royal Centre in Nottingham for her every time tickets go on sale. You have to be quick though. He sells out very very fast. Lot faster than Christy Moore.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

Damn! There's no fooling you lot;-)

I have decided that I am going to learn both 'Donald where's yer troosers' and 'Paddy McGintys goat' so, when the inevitable call comes from the back of the room, "Give us something Scottish/Irish" I can say "OK - but don't say I didn't warn you".

Mind you, when someone says "give us something good", I am totaly stuffed!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM

I read this as "Irish washerwoman" for some reason... which led me to wondering what an Irish washer looks like- is it one with the hole on the outside?


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 01:46 PM

I have been following the "not bad for an Englishman" thread with interest. I am glad Dave, started this one.

UGGHH! IF Enya is considered folk, if New Age is considered folk, I am going to start learning blues and jazz and give up on folk altogether. Ucckkk yuckk!

Re: "Where's your troosers" reminds me of a hilarious song done by the bard Efenwealt Whystle from the Medieval Society for Creative Anacronists.

Celtic Jihad Rap which was copywrighted in 1999, so long before 9/11/01.

Lyrics and sound sample at http://camelot-treasures.com/music/efenwealt/Minstrel/celtic.htm

I must dig out that CD and have another listen.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Beer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM

VirginiaTam that is a riot. Thanks for the laugh.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM

Hi Dave,
We meet again!
If you are so convinced that the last thread was so racist - why have you started this one? - just curious.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:33 PM

AAARGH!

Copyright - so spelt. A right that arises, automatically on creation, in works of authorship. See the Berne Convention.

Copyrighted - so spelt. A non existent word, by reason of the explanation above.

Copywrighted - do what? Is it anything to do with an association footballer of colour who used to advertise potted sauces - "It feels like chicken tonight"...


AAARGH!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:40 PM

My figners neber cud speel gud. Sittin here in the dark, typing on a laptop with arthritic hands and the man has to point out my foibles.

You're a mean one Mister Bridge.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM

Hi Jim

I think you have just proved that you are missing my point, as I suggested on the other thread. We have already agreed that racism may not be the right way to describe what happened to Dick. Bigotry and national stereotyping is far more accurate.

I started this thread to show how ludicrous it is to say such things. Unfortunately too many people are aware of the original for it to prove anything but I will repeat what I said on the original. If this thread was started first I suspect it would not have gone this far without me being severely stamped upon.

I can have a laugh with the best of them - look back at any sample of my posts - but I am still at a loss as to why it is OK to poke fun at certain nations but not at others. THAT is the point. No one has yet given me a sensible explanation.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:01 AM

Oh - and FYI I have never said that the thread was racist. I said some racist comments were made on it. Do you actualy read what I write?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM

Do you actualy read what I write?

Nah....!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM

Dave old man, I think you have got your head up your ass ,in the second thread in one week, do you think help is required ? Take a leaf out of the Captain's book and forget it.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

Dave,
Do you think you have offended anybody? - can't see any sign of it here!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:12 PM

Ahhhh, If only I was that flexible, BC - I would love to be able to bend like that again but age is against me:-) No help needed but exactly what is it I need to forget? If you were wondering why Mr Miles has not been on recently btw I would guess it is because he is touring rather than due to any disinterest in the topic in hand. He hasn't posted anything since October 2nd.

Jim - No, I didn't expect to offend anyone. Like I said too many people saw the original to be taken in by my phoney piece of bigotry. Just pointing out that such remarks are indeed ludicrous. And hoping to find out why some rude comments are OK and others are not. No harm in asking. Again...

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

I picked up on the irony immediately Dave. And that is pretty amazing, considering I'm a Yank.

I think the group which it is generally deemed ok to slight and slur is expected to "just get over it" because we WASPs were the perpetrators of racism for so long and sadly still are. Oops! Label alert!

Doesn't make it right, but I won't hold my breath waiting for a reasonable explanation or much change. I'd turn blue and have to suffer the humiliation of derogatory Smurf jokes.

Anyway I thought I should explain why I find Enya's (I cannot call it music) unappealing. It has nothing to do with her being Irish. One should not drive or operate heavy machinery while under the Enyafluence.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:50 AM

Shit! Sinnaed O'Conner's new album, has some great stuff on it, as well!!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:00 AM

Hey Tam - I have come across lots of Yanks that understand irony - Lets not have that national stereotype bandied about:-) That Celtic Jihad song was great btw - just goes to show that some rap is worth listening to as well - Yet another stereotype blown!

Yes - I think you are right and, to be honest, I probably knew it all along. There is a certain group that is just expected to 'get over it' as you say. Doesn't make it right but at least it makes it understandable. Like I said in the other thread, as long as we don't confuse understandable with justifiable then I guess it is OK.

Anyway. The situation won't last long - I'm off to start a campaign for the rights of white middle-class fat blokes. We have been troden underfoot for far too long - We demand the right to wear socks with sandals! To go to the pub! To not 'be in touch with our inner self'! To wear brown shoes with black trousers! to...

Sorry? What's that dear? We need to go shopping? OK - coming...

Got to go.

:D


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:07 AM

"Like I said too many people saw the original to be taken in by my phoney piece of bigotry."
I wouldn't have thought many people would have been taken in by my phoney piece of chastising on this thread - but there you go!!!
I never had any problem with some over-sensitive soul taking an innocent remark as rudeness - just couldn't understand where the racism came in - or even "slight and slur" - still don't.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:00 AM

I din't even see a piece of chastisement to be taken in by, Jim. Where do you mean?

And yes, I realise you don't understand. It's not your fault - It's in your make-up. That is part of the issue. When people do not understand others they begin to see them as something different. For 'different' read 'not as good', maybe?

Can you not just accept that, while you see no 'slight or slur' some people may do? The ones that do see it as an issue are no better or worse than you. Why label them 'delicate, thin-skinned little flowers' because they do not share your opinions?

BTW - I would personaly take over-sensitive as a compliment. Sensitivity is, to my mind, a virtue. Why do some people see it as weakness?

Anyway. I know you will probably never agree that the remark on the original thread was an issue. Can you at least agree that some people may see it as such and then let them have their opinions in peace?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

'Sensitivity is, to my mind, a virtue. Why do some people see it as weakness?'

With me, I think it was the time I tried to rub aftershave on my bollocks. I thought, oh yes! theres a connection there alright!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM

Dave,
I still don't understand - if you read 'slight or slur' into the subject why start this thread - do we really oppose offensiveness with offensiveness? On the other hand, were you making a joke as I believe the Cap'n's lady was?
Perhaps I should explain why I take all this seriously enough to pursue it.
Some years ago a number of feminists (a cause which has my wholehearted support) decided that they would attempt to prevent songs which they believed to be offensive to women from being sung at clubs. They went along to clubs and expressed their disapproval at such songs; I know several singers, men and women, who were actually booed off stage. As a result we lost a great number of excellent songs and I believe from conversations I have had with people effected, the feminist movement lost a number of supporters, male and female. Strangely enough, the protesters' disapproval did not extend towards anti-men songs, or songs about being 'past it', so presumably anti-maleism and ageism were acceptable.
Nonsense like this, far from helping human relationships, leads to disquiet and mistrust.
Really, why leave it here - let's get rid of Taming of the Shrew, The Merchant of Venice and Oliver Twist while we're at it.
WLD
Meant to say on the other thread 'Pity the Downtrodden Folksinger' - now there's a great subject for a song.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

Pfffft - The aftershave on bollocks sting is nothing! Try tabasco sauce on your ar...

Errrmmm. Hang on. I never tried it, whatever the records at Hope Hospital say:-)

D.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM

Jim. Just the point - The disapproval did not extend towards anti-men songs etc. So, why was it deemed OK to protest about anti-woman songs? That is just the question I keep asking. Wht is it OK to demean one set of society but not the other. It is completely and utterly irrelevent whether I find either comment offensive. The issue is that there is an imbalance in what is deemed proper. As far as I am concerned it should be all or nothing. If it is acceptable for any nation to poke fun at the English then the reverse should also apply. If anti-whatever comments are deemed unacceptable they they should be unacceptable regardless of who they are made about. To have one set of rules for 'us' and one for 'them' is plainly wrong.

As to let's get rid of Taming of the Shrew, The Merchant of Venice and Oliver Twist

Good idea. They should be the first to go. Crap literature written by imperialist lackeys. Replace them with Das Kapital, Mein Kampf and Confessions of a Window Cleaner :D

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:07 AM

We appear to have moved a considerable distance on these threads; from racist to bigoted to "slight and slur" to "ludicrous".
Perhaps if we continue in this direction we will eventually end up with harmless fun (though we have taken a slight shuffle back to 'demeaning one set of society'.
Which is the case and whatever it turns out to be (in your mind) have you become part of it by starting this thread - I won't hold my breath for an answer.
Couldn't begin to understand your last sentence.
Jim Carroll
PS I think the Cap'n might be in Sicily performing at a festival.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM

Ah well, Jim. If you believe that bigoted is better than racist; that slight and slur and ludicrous are traits like the former two; and it makes you happy to do so, then let us leave it at that. I may start to have some 'harmless fun' myself seeing as I seem to have your approval to do so.

I didn't expect you to understand the last sentence. You have been living in Ireland for to long:-)

Cheers

Dave

PS - Yes he is - With Richard Grainger.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:16 PM

"I didn't expect you to understand the last sentence. You have been living in Ireland for to long:"
Don't understand this either - is it racist?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM

unquestionably... the bastard!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:46 AM

Sigh...


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:15 AM

Unfortunately I cannot find the thread on the Englishman thread and so have only this thread to get some idea of what is going on. I am a great believer in not judging a conversation by the last senteance you heard... yet here am I doing just that!

In case this is not relevent then I ask your forgiveness and indulgence! ;-)

I have a couple or three reasons to worry about things bigoted, sexist and judgementalist (yes, I don't think that's a proper word either). Yet I have a great time on the folk scene as I find 'folksters' mostly chilled out and open-minded. I have many friends, of both genders, of most genres, and all good folks. I have actually found that Folk has educated me in many ways by raising issues of various things in song. A song could be very sexist without the singer therefore being sexist themselves. Likewise with race, sex and gender. I have found a couople of songs quite offensive in my time but was not offended at the singer.

I have learned more about Lancashire life, slavery, the mines, Canadians, men's 'bad habits', etc from folks songs than I have in any classroom. I think sometimes that some songs do offend folk for all various reasons but if they are thought provoking they serve a purpose. As long as no direct attack is being made by the singer I see no issue.

I was actually drawn to this thread by what could be thought as a sexist title. I wanted to find out more what it was about. I am not sure I have yet but think I have the gist.

The problem with irony and humour is that some people can hide behind it and use it as a way of shielding their more direct bigotry. That makes it hard for the ones who are being genuine and trying to make things lighter while getting a point across. I think the internet, with international access to threads, can be frought with differences of culture in the use of irony and humour.

It's a difficult line to tread. I consider myself feministic is so many ways yet I do not wholeheartedly support all things feminist. I think the minute we start looking to ban certain subject in folk then we lose the diversity of which folk is all about. That richness of life and experience, all things, good and bad, about how we have and and will live. We have more things in common together than we have things that seperate us :-)

I think as long as respect is always there for the other singer, the alternative songwriter, the person who is a little different (because we are ALL a 'little different'), etc., then the status quo will be maintained. Many of the things that offend us are hard to define individually and yet most know when a certain line has been crossed.

Hope this makes some sort of sense as oil on troubled waters?

Best wishes everyone

mp


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM

The problem with irony and humour is that some people can hide behind it and use it as a way of shielding their more direct bigotry. That makes it hard for the ones who are being genuine and trying to make things lighter while getting a point across.

Very perceptive, mp, and not a view I had considered before. The original question releated to an Irish lady telling and English man that he was 'Not a bad singer for an Englishman.' The issue has been clouded by all sorts but basicaly the question is - Was it OK for her to say that?

Most paople say yes - Just treat it as a back-handed compliment. A bit of fun. My point was that if it is OK to imply that the English cannot sing, even as a 'bit of fun', then it is equaly correct to imply that the Irish are thick; that Jews are mean with money; and that Immigrants are criminals. If you had not gathered I don't believe it is OK to say any of the former, as stereotyping is a very dangerous thing to do. Even in fun.

Hope that helps.

DeG


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:42 AM

Oh - and, ask as I may, no-one can give me an acceptable answer to the question as to why it is OK to say one and not the other. I have been told that because English people are inherently racist they deserve it. I do not subscribe to that view and believe it to be yet another dangerous stereotype.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:04 AM

well lets face it. the English can't sing. let's stop skirting round the issue and call a spade a black person.

the English are all crap singers. none of them could hold a song in paper bag. its cos they're screwed up and emotionally stunted, that unfortunately their contribution to the cultural life of the planet has been negligible.

on top of that - very few of them will spontaneously buy you a drink. their standards of cleanliness leave much to be desired and they drive on the wrong side of the road. and vote for idiots.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:07 AM

:-D


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM

"very few of them will spontaneously buy you a drink"

Maybe, but we are not so rude to turn one down when offered.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

Thanks for the explanation. I can now have a better grasp.

I think your premise is that "that if it is OK to imply that the English cannot sing, even as a 'bit of fun', then it is equaly correct to imply that the Irish are thick; that Jews are mean with money; and that Immigrants are criminals. If you had not gathered I don't believe it is OK to say any of the former, as stereotyping is a very dangerous thing to do. Even in fun." is quite a simple yet very deep statement. I would of course, in essence, agree with you. But somehow there is a subtle difference. It is knowing where to stop that is more important I think.

I am blonde so blonde jokes, while I can appreciate as funny sometimes, are basically 'hairist'. If those jokes applied to my skin colour then they would not be jokes but almost certainly racist. In the least, while not perhaps intended to be racist, they undoubtedly are. What I think really matters is the INTENT behind the comment. All jokes should be funny and not making a deeper statement that attacks anyone/anything.

Some white people cannot sing! Some can. I can't ;-)

I am minded of a comment in another subject... "White boys cannot dance", which sounds deeply racist, but has some truth. It is not meant as an insult but a true statement generally. Many white men would actually agree the above statement and not see it as racist.

In principle the torch you are carrying is very bright... and correct... but very literal and serious. I do think most people can tell the difference between an actual slur and good-hearted intent/fun/comment. I guess the actual term "Englishman" is racist as it labels and limits you to what you are but says nothing about you as a person. The stereotypes and labels - which we are all guilty of using, if only occasionally - can be dangerous if written in stone.

Your unanswered question "as to why it is OK to say one and not the other?" is very hard to give a single answer to. I do not believe we are inherently anything. Some can be but all can learn/unlearn things and different ways. Maybe it is 'our turn' to take some of the jesting and comments we are getting and learn we are no different from anyone else on the planet. I often use a comment I heard in an Ally McBeal episode once when men ask why do women have different rules than men.... "Hey! We are women... we have double standards to uphold!". Some things are just true... just because, yet inexplicable. What matters is that we care and know those differences and respect them. In general I think Folksters (my term [label???]for all people who sing Folk) are pretty aware. if we lose diversity then it ceases being Folk just as general life would not be so interesting without all the different diversity and culture.

The proof is always in the pudding. Someone says Englishmen (or women) cannot sing then we know this to be untrue because there are many good examples. I am just sorry I cannot give you an answer because it is a very important question.

But what do I know of life other than what the Folksters sing to me? ;-)

Best wishes

mp


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

weelittledrummer... You know us so well. But you kindly left so much out ;-)

hehe

mp


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

'Copywrighted - do what? Is it anything to do with an association footballer of colour who used to advertise potted sauces - "It feels like chicken tonight"...'

Copywrighted refers to anything that's had an action performed on it by a copywright (cf. wheelwright, cartwright, Pricerite).

As in the example:

"Can you get some more paper clips from the store, please, Elsie?"

"Sorry, I'm a bit busy, love. I'll get the copywright to do it when she gets back from the photocopier."

(Taken from the abridged version of the Modern Dictionary of Bullshit, compiled by K. Henty (aka Melodeonboy). (Published by Chatup and Windbag 2008)


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM

Mauvepink,
Welcome to Molehill Mountain!!
I suggest you open the relevant 'Not bad for an Englishman' thread thread before you make up your mind (7 days back should do it).
Dave
You really did get the answer you sought.
The insignificant comment would only have been insulting had it been part of a larger picture of stereotyping (as, for instance, your examples of Blacks, Chinese and Irish). I am unaware of the English being subject to persistent racist abuse.
Stereotyping - as my dictionary has it, is when a widespread false impression is given and held.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM

Thank you Jim C

I do not have time to read through it just now but will when I get a chance. I have now found it so am grateful for the pointer. I have it on trace so will get it easy enough when I need it.

I have no ideas of the answers or if I got one. I should have said it was all merely my opinion and hope that nothing racist or bigoted is/was meant. I still think Folksters are pretty sorted folks :-)

Have a great weekend everyone!

mp


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

Now read most of the thread mentioned and can see how it started to get a little edgy in places and off thread. I am happy to stay where I am with what I said above even so.

The person who is most able to comment if it was insulting or not is the person who was there. They could be offended and have a legitimate right to be so even if it was jesting. Someone's joke always has the potential to offend/hurt someone else.

I get comments about some of my songs. Some are too 'soppy' for some and they are entitled to that opinion. Some look down on others because they use a capo!

So many folks: so many differences. It is surprising that even more misuderstandings happen when you think about it.

I'll shut up ;-)

kind regards

mp


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM

Which dictionary do you use, Jim. I have three definitions here directly from:

1.Dictionary.reference.com - stereotyping - a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group: The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes.

2.Cambridge dictionary online - stereotype - a fixed idea that people have about what someone or something is like, especially an idea that is wrong:

3. Meriam-Webster - stereotype - to repeat without variation : make hackneyed b: to develop a mental stereotype about

So, all this fuss is because you could not be bothered looking up the actual meaning of the word and have relied on your own definition? Blimey. I hope you don't do anything important for a living!

"Oh, hang on, my definition of flying a plane is to drive it at 100mph into the side of the airport. Or maybe, my dictionary says you save someones life by sticking a red hot poker up their bum?"

Don't take offense, Jim. Just having a 'bit of fun' :-P

MP, Well said.

The person who is most able to comment if it was insulting or not is the person who was there

They have already said it was done maliciously. I have no reason at all to doubt their integrity.

Jim, on the other hand, I have not met and can only go off his comments and reasoning here. To date the jury is still out.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM

"So many folks: so many differences. It is surprising that even more misuderstandings happen when you think about it"

Apologies. I meant "So many folks: so many differences. It is surprising that even more misuderstandings DON'T happen when you think about it"

Sorry. I have no idea how to italicise quotes and such. I'll get there I'm sure.

:-)

mp


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM

I disagree..I think the English have been the victims of much abuse..perhaps not racist...most of them probably lived lives of great drudgery and/or hardship and didn't have the means to oppress people or probably the desire. Of course, some of the ruling class did, but they oppressed the English serfs, millworkers, navies, miners, at the same time they oppressed the Irish, Scots, Africans, Indians etc. mg


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:59 AM

Guest,
You are right - the 'The English' have been victims of much abuse - by 'The English' - establishment, that is.
From the beginning of this topic (set to run longer than 'The Mousetrap as things stand at present), the implication has been that the remark was a racist one (the terminology has altered along the way, but the analysis remains the same, 'one of our own was deliberately insulted by one of them').
As a Brit living in Ireland, this appears to me to be utter nonsense - and the original poster really should know better, being in a similar position to me.
The remark is of the type I hear regularly in my local bar; "not bad for an Englishman, Kerryman, Dub, Langer (now there's a term that could give offense if taken seriously), or even in my case a Mullagh Roader (my address)".
As a Northern Englander living in London I heard similar comments about 'provincials', 'Scousers', 'Northerners ("often described as anybody living north of Watford")'... or people like me who lived 'South of the Thames' on a daily basis. Had I taken any of these remarks as anything other than a bit of repartee I would have lived in a permanent state of paranoia - as it was, I considered it as an acknowledgment that I had been accepted enough by the people I lived among for them to feel confident of my reaction. That is pretty much how I feel now.
The original remark was made one-to-one to the Cap'n's face; if it was made behind his back, or even as a public announcement from the stage (and even then there would have been doubt as to its malicious nature), there might have been grounds for complaint, but, if we are to take the Cap'ns description as a guide - it was a harmless remark addressed to him with no wider implication whatever. He is, of course, entitled to take the remark seriously if he so wishes, but, unless he can show otherwise, that offense must be directed at the speaker, not her countrymen (unless he or anybody can provide examples of any widespread anti-Brit activity here).
As I have said before, we have been living here for ten years and visiting for over thirty. In that time we have NEVER encountered an example of hostility because of our origins. To my knowledge, neither has the Cap'n, who is in a similar position to us.
The nearest thing to abuse we have ever received is to be referred to as 'blow-ins', a term applied to any outsider, be they from London, Kuala Lumpur, Washington, or a few miles outside of the town. It is a term we are comfortable with, and so is the Cap'n as he uses it himself; it describes our position perfectly and is always delivered in the same, good natured manner.
Attitudes such as have been displayed on this thread (thankfully by a minority), stand to do a thousand times more damage to our relationship with our hosts in this country than any flippant remark possibly could - it makes us appear hostile, over-sensitive outsiders. They are, in my opinion, extreme displays of 'Little Englanderism' part of the bequest left to us from our 'glorious Empire on which the sun never set' days - if anything, it is they which are racist, or can generate racism.
If 'not bad for an Englishman' is part of a wider concept that the English can't sing - I've never come across it before - has anybody?
At the present time racism is very much on the increase in Ireland - directed almost exclusively towards asylum seekers and economic immigrants (and Travellers). Garbage such as this serves only to fuel it rather than confront it; thank god it's confined to a handful of cranks.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:28 AM

To put things into context, after my sending my (overlong as usual) posting this morning I went into town to get my newspaper.
Just thought you might like to know what you are, at best, seeking to compare the Cap'n's incident with and, at worst, helping to fuel.
Incidents such as the one described are in the increase here and are ably assisted by those who would trivialise real racism and bigotry.
Jim Carroll

Council seeks court order to stop Travellers' house blockade

NORTH TIPPERARY County Council will apply for a High Court order on Monday to stop some local residents maintaining a blockade near a house allocated to a family who are members of the Travelling community and which includes children with special needs. The family whom the council are seeking to house are currently living in a mobile home on the side of the road without toilet facilities and electricity and have been on the housing list for eight years.
The council has initiated court proceedings because of a continuing blockade which began early last month when local residents discovered a house at Cullenagh, Ballina, Co Tipperary, had been acquired by the council to house the 10-member O'Reilly family.
David Kennedy SC, for the council, yesterday secured permission from Mr Justice Roderick Murphy to serve notice, on those individuals involved in the blockade, that the council would apply for an injunction on Monday to restrain the protesters interfering with and trespassing upon the property.
Mr Kennedy said the situation had become "very inflamed" and the council was in a position where it had to act. Access had been gained to the house in Cullenagh and glue had been placed in the locks. The electricity had been cut off and it was unclear whether the water supply was working, Mr Kennedy said. Council employees attending the house were also in fear of being intimidated by those maintaining the blockade.
In an affidavit, Sharon Kennedy, senior executive officer of the council's housing capital schemes section, said the O'Reilly family -two parents and their eight children, some of whom have special needs - were residing in a mobile home on the roadside without toilet facilities or electricity.
The family were from the locality and had been on the housing list since 2000 and the council intended to house them at Cullenagh as soon as possible, she said. However, early last month, after the council's plan became public knowledge, a number of residents from the Ballina area expressed their disapproval at the move, Ms Kennedy said.
Some residents had entered a private part of the council's offices in Nenagh and were verbally abusive. Eventually, gardai were called.
The residents have been outside the house at Cullenagh since September 5th last, she said. They were initially on the footpath outside the house and consistently blocked it. They also erected tents and placed a picket by holding up placards.
Early this month, they were moved on by gardai.
Since September 26th, the residents had occupied a portion of privately owned land to the side of the house, Ms Kennedy said. The council had a right of way over that land, but the right of way had been blocked by parked cars and a camper van.
Ms Kennedy said she was concerned the O'Reilly family would be subject to intimidation when they eventually occupied the premises.
Last month more than 60 local residents applied for leave to bring a High Court judicial review challenge aimed at overturning the council's decision to enter into a tenancy agreement with the O'Reilly family.
The leave application was rejected by Mr Justice Peter Charleton who found they had established no arguable case.


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 07:14 AM

So, standing against bigotry will do 'a thousand times more damage'. Yet in a country where you have just said bigotry and intollerance of incomers is on the increase you advise us to treat derogatory remarks against one such incomer as a bit of fun? Maybe you should tell the O'Reily family that their neighbours don't realy mean anything by it?

thank god it's confined to a handful of cranks.

Amen to that, Jim...

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM

Dave,
There were two examples of blatantly outspoken racism on the last thread - you and the tiny handful of your supporters chose to let them pass without comment yet persistently flap your arms about and squeal about the Cap'n's 'unfortunate experience - hypocrisy or what?
How dare you compare the two.
I'm off to where the air is cleaner.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:32 AM

Jim,

1. What examples of 'blatently outspoken racism' do you refer to? The term 'examples' usualy comes with, well, examples.

2. I have never flaped my arms about or sqealed in my life. That is a knee jerk statement meant to show me in a bad light. Don't worry, I don't expect an apolgy or retraction, even if it is a personal attack. The people who matter know it isn't true:-)

3. The man who says it is OK to abuse an Englishman and then tells us how bad racisn is in Ireland accuses me of being a hypocrite. I think that speaks for itself.

4. How dare I compare what two? What two things has anyone introduced recently that can bear direct comparison? One half-cocked statement and another maybe?

5. Off to 'where the air is cleaner'. Would that be the Ireland where you admit that 'racism is very much on the increase' or the world of Jim Carrol where stereotyping appears to mean something different to everywhere else? Either way I suppose it is good place to go if you cannot come up with sensible arguments. Good luck to you.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM

Try John from Kemsing's last piece of wisdom and Terribus's excusing thuggish behavior by British Troops on the streets of Ireland
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

Jim, I responded to John Kemsings 'piece of wisdom' and thanked you for pointing it out. Teribus did not, as far as I am aware, offer any excuses. He pointed out that both sides did bad things and that the PIRA were actualy responsible for more violence than the British Army. How is that racist? Would you consider the statement that the British Empire were responsible for lots of attrocities, as racist? I wouldn't. Pure hostorical fact. I would however say that your statement about most English people being racist was a racist viewpoint. One is fact, the other is not.

Nice to se you back, btw. Was the air not as clean as you thought? :-D

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

I can remember a Randy Newman interview a few years ago.

the interviewer - typical BBC type - in a plum job and congratulating himself for his perspicacity and je ne sais quoi, says Mr Newman, in your songs - you seem to be commenting on the way that people from the southern states in the USA, with a deep south accent will be adjuged racist, and unintelligent.

Randy Newman says, well predjudice happens all over the world. It certainly happens here in England. Today I heard someone say ...oh he's from Yorkshire - as though that explains his personality....

BBC man says, that's not the same sort of thing at all!

Randy Newman smiled grimly.

And you could hear all northerners through the ether going - oh yes it is mate!


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Subject: RE: Not bad for an Irish woman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM

Bloody drummers. You can tell when one is at the door. The knocking keeps getting faster and faster...

:D


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