Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: GUEST,Steve - Canada
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM

Folk Festival?

Mosh Pit?

Stop ruining 'FOLK MUSIC' bigger, louder not at all 'BETTER'   

Give us a break!

S.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

Could I echo muppitz's v sensible comments. If you have a criticism of some aspect of a festival, sending a polite email or other communication to the organisers is likely to have a much better outcome than some full-on whinge on a public forum which needlessly raises hackles. Surely we are all in this together, trying to have a good time at a festival, enjoy a bit of music.
And, on one specific point. It will be a sad day when nobody wants to jump about to well-played rhythmic dance music; and not everybody likes being told to do-si-do by a caller. Some do, some don't. It'd be very boring if we all liked the same thing.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: GUEST,Charts
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM

Regarding the sound in the main marquee, I understand completely Grahams dilema! I have been following most of the comments regarding this years SFF and with many people making comments on 'bad sound' in marquee one, I felt I had to say something to defend someone I know does a lot of good work!

Being a sound engineer myself, the problems associated with very large venues are often extremely daunting, and sometimes great sound is unachievable without spending 100s of thousands of pounds on the best pa rig on the planet, and even then I doubt it would be perfect!

As for the bass feedback comment, I suspect the person nearly got it right by commenting on 'air resonance'. All stuctures have a resonant frequency, the larger the venue the lower the note, and when this note is played the structure naturally amplifies it to the point of it sounding like feedback. Without extensive testing to discover the exact frequency, this effect cant be eradicated. Only a reduction can be achieved using equalising techiniques. The only suggestion I could give to possibly reduce a)volume levels and b)bass resonance, is to create more dispersion by putting delay stacks half way down the arena. This can often alleviate the problems of trying to drive the sound all the way from the front, and reduce the reflections experienced at the rear, ending up with less overall volume required to fill the venue.

Any how, Im probably getting a bit too techie, and boring the pants off anyone who is reading this. The point Im trying to make is that Grahams task is a very daunting one and I dont envy you your job of trying to sort this one out! What I do know though is that Graham has years of experience in the PA world and Im sure he has got plenty of ideas of how to build on and create more improvemants for next year.

PS The band I mix for is Elbow Jane, and although I was unable to attend SFF this year I do know the lads were very happy with Alistairs work in marquee two and also Grahams work in Marquee one! I was also very happy to know that my guys were in safe hands!

Keep up the good work Graham and dont let the whingers get you down!

Charts

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Aeola
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM

Raising the stage is more feasible than the seating, and yes, the sound in the main marquee was not good all the time. Strikes me that if it can be good some of the time and not at other times maybe there is some problem with set up etc, whoever is doing it. However I have noticed this 'phenomena' at other Fests where artists insist on their own sound men.Maybe there could be some sort of liaison between the 'on-site sound man' and the 'visiting sound man'.After all it's the punter who is paying!! I also noticed that the sound from the Main Marquee ssounded infinitely better as you walked towards the food area!! Generally I really enjoyed the Festival!& will be there next year!

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Dave Higham
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM

Constructive criticism? Raise the height of the stage. I actually worked out, while there, that if the stage was raised by 1 metre there would be no problem. You'd even see what the step dancers' feet were doing. As to raising the seating. How many seats were there? 3000? 4000? Doesn't sound realistic to me.

I apologise to Graham Bradshaw if I seemed to be saying it was all the sound crew's fault. I realise that that tent is probably a sound engineer's nightmare. I also knew that a lot of the 'stars' bring their own man. I've noticed on more than one occasion that that's when it all starts going downhill. Richard Thompson's sound was excellent (I don't know who did it)and although it was just one voice and acoustic guitar I'm sure Graham will tell us that that's not as easy as you'd think.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

Leeneia - I don't know about Science - it sounded like plain old common sense to me .Well said.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM

Perhaps part of the bill for sound could be spent on the toilets. I thought the sound OK.

L in C

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:53 AM

'different people have different perceptions, and expectations, and you'll never please everybody.'

Nice platitudes. Now how about some science?

If there is feedback, then equipment is either set up wrong or too loud. Figure it out - before the concert.

If people are feeling pain from the sound, then it's too loud. What is the decibel level? Figure it out.

If 3/4 of the audience have left, something is wrong. Figure it out.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:52 AM

Well, Mr Happy * the Gloom Band had a fantastic time in Shrewsb'ry!

There's some links posted on the other thread here thread.cfm?threadid=106684#2425237 where you can watch lots've this years concerts on YTube - your view unobscured!

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:41 AM

One answer is to replace the "mosh pit" with the "mush pit" experienced at Bromyard - knee deep mud isn't conducive to dancing - it was a dredit to Tarras (with a bit of help from Keith Donnelly!), who, in spite of obviously not being to everyone's taste managed to get people dancing, where even S and B had not done so.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: muppitz
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:12 AM

Being a mate of the sound crew I would like to point out that all of the major/finishing acts at Shrewsbury had their own sound engineer so please don't be so quick to attack the people who are there days before any of us setting up and days afterwards taking it all back down again as they are the same crew also do the sound for the stages at other festivals, *including* Bromyard and they do a damn good job!

I will often stand with them at the back when I go in to see concerts and I've never observed feedback being unattended, nor do they try to mask it with volume, wherever I sit in a marquee that Graham and his team are working the sound is neither painful or inappropriate.
You can and you should expect good sound.

In terms of the 'mosh pit', I have my reservations on this idea, it's great that the people who want to dance have a space to do it where they're not going to inadvertantly fall into the lap of the people who don't, however, maybe a better idea would be to raise the height of the seating rather than the stage then the people who queue for hours on end to get to the front row won't have such an anti-climactical experience.

And no, people who dance at concerts do not feel stupid dancing in front of people who can actually dance, it's an expression of rhythm, also known as 'enjoying yourself' and having the freedom to move witout feeling like you have to conform to a set of steps and potentially feeling like an idiot if you don't know said steps.

People who danced in the mosh pit are NOT SELFISH, the service was provided to protect those who sit in the front row and are at risk of people falling over onto you and your pint, if there was no mosh pit, people would just get up and dance at the front of the stage a mere few centimetres away from your legs, no one would use a mosh pit that was at the other end of the marquee, we would be back to people complaining about the dancers being too close and crowding the front of the marquee.
So what's the next step? By the tone of your message I would guess that you would want to ban dancing in the main marquee? Also not going to happen, maybe your time would be better spent thinking up some constructive solutions rather than just moaning about everything that wasn't to your personal taste.

Here's a constructive suggestion, send an e-mail to the organisers of Shrewsbury Folk Festival, let them know about your concerns and use my suggestion that they raise the height of the seating to enable a better view for those who don't want to be exhibitionists that come and make complete idiots of themselves and I won't even tell them the idea wasn't yours.

That is, if you can be bothered to be constructive towards a festival you're never going to go to again.

My few pennies worth!

muppitz
x

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:46 AM

Of course you can expect good sound.

"Perfect" sound is a little more difficult to achieve in these big structures, but that is what we are continually striving for.

For your information, it is the same sound company (mine!) that does Warwick, Bromyard and Shrewsbury - using the same high quality equipment. There is just more of it at Shrewsbury, in order to cover the much larger area.

I am not going to get into an argument about which was better, and whether it was too loud, or too quiet (both opinions have been expressed). All it proves is that different people have different perceptions, and expectations, and you'll never please everybody.

Suffice it to say that we take all sensible criticism seriously, and you'll find that myself, along with Alan & Sandra Surtees, are actually our own harshest critics, and are usually well aware of what works and what doesn't.

G

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Dave Higham
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

Every time I hear a band encourage people to come down to the front and dance, my heart sinks. OK, if the conditions are appropriate (but they seldom are) however I still think it's more about an ego trip for the band than anything else. Who was it who said 'This tune's got a great beat, so if you feel like clapping along to it, please DON'T'! Whoever it was, had the right idea.

It's true that in the smaller marquee the sound was much better. Partly, I think, because it was smaller and partly because Alistair Russell was in charge of it. It still sometimes got very loud though. I suppose I'm too old to appreciate fiddles so loud they hurt my ears and drums that give me an unpleasant thudding in my chest.

As to not expecting perfect sound. I think if I've paid £174 (a lot of money on a pension) to hear world-class artists I have every right to expect world-class sound.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

If you can't expect good sound then what is the point?

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: .spiderman
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:11 AM

How strange - I had such a wonderful time at Shrewsbury (it was my first visit)! I thought they had the set-up just right - there's no way you can please everyone, but I'm sure the majority had as good a time as I did. I was in the 'mosh-pit' for some things, near the front of the seating area for others (bobbing heads didn't annoy me at all - people were just enjoying themselves!) - it certainly worked a lot better than the other folk feativals I regularly go to (Cambridge, Leigh-on-Sea, Cropredy). I really do think that the organisers got it spot on at Shrewsbury - well done them! If you go to a large festival expecting perfect sound you are just setting yourself up for disappoinment, but on the whole it was great. I think the thing to do is to just enter into the spirit of things and you're guaranteed to have a good time (beer helps!). Roll on Shrewsbury 2009!

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:17 AM

I don't know about the big marquee at Shrewsbury, I didn't play there. But in the smaller marquee(where I did play, with the Boat Band) everything seemed quite civilised. Those who wanted to listen sat down, and thopse that wanted to dance went to the side aisles. Whether they were officially allowed to I dont know, but the stewards let them and a good time was had by all.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

It's not so bad if A) the band ASK people to come to front of stage and fling themselves about, as per The Oyster Band at both FAREHAM and LEICESTER this year, assuming B) that the venue/seating/stage-height are all suitable (they were !), but when a seething mass of uncontrolled drunken humanity make total prats of themselves by wildly cavorting in the area between front-row seats and stage where this is both unfeasible and undesirable,as at WARWICK this year,it can totally ruin EVERYTHING ---and I was NOT HAPPY !! ( Warwick ,and other,organisers, TAKE NOTE !!) And---under the circumstances, I shall DEFINITELY NOT now be attending SHREWSBURY !! ( It was on my list as a possible for next year).

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM

Dave I second your thoughs entirely,having watched on the screen outside that marquee, not worth going in then!
Pritty from outside but a disaster for any sound man.
Brill festival though but too big now.
Apologies to Allan and Sandra

Subject: Shrewsbury Festival - How disappointing
From: Dave Higham
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

Yes, I know this is a bit late in the day, but I've only just got back from a 2-month Mudfest in the UK. We were towed ONTO and OFF 2 campsites! 'Why', I hear you ask, 'would anyone who lives in SW France want to spend 2 months on holiday in the UK?' Well, because my French wife loves England and prefers English rain to French sunshine. No, I don't understand either.

So, this is what the blurb on the Shrewsbury web-site said:

'We will be using the wonderful "Scola" tensile marquee we used last year as our main venue. To prevent the seated audience having their view interrupted when people at the front stand up, (in the moshing pit) we have decided to increase the height of the stage and use crowd control barriers behind the standing area. This will create a line of demarcation and the first seated rows will be positioned three metres behind the barriers. This means if anyone stands up the seated audience will see straight over their heads.'

So we forked out £174 for 2 tickets and off we went.

Own up organisers, you got it 100% WRONG. After queuing 2 hours (including the obligatory 45 minutes or more after the scheduled start of each concert) we got seats on the front row. Then the people came and stood in front of us in the 'mosh pit' and we could not see anyone on stage. A steward actually came and asked us if we could see, so I let her sit in my seat. She got the message. I don't know if the organisers did.

I found later on that by sitting about 20 or 30 rows from the front and craning your neck you could see the artists on stage from the waist up. Great for clog dancers or Irish dancers! The Ukulele Orchestra perform sitting down. We could just about see their heads! Of course, if you went right to the back of the marquee you could almost see the feet of the people on stage (with a telescope).

So whose lame-brained idea was it to allow a couple of hundred selfish people to stand at the front and effectively spoil the concert for a couple of thousand people sitting behind them? In theory this area is for exhibitionists to come and make complete idiots of themselves by jigging about in a way that ranges from the ridiculous to the frankly embarrassing. (Why don't they do it at ceilidhs? Is it because they'd feel stupid doing it in front of people who can dance?). But in fact, what happens is that people just go and stand there and block the view of those behind. Some even had children sitting on their shoulders! Why not reserve a space for the gesticulators at the back of the marquee, or better still, invite them to go and do it outside?

Second complaint (no, I haven't finished). The sound in the wonderful 'Scola' marquee was, for the most part, atrocious. Not all the sound crew's fault I think. It must have a natural air resonance which meant that certain bass notes caused feed-back. With only a couple of instruments they could try to control it, although with little success. With 4 or more on stage the answer seemed to be to ignore it and crank up the decibels. The worst case was the Duhks' concert. The compare (poor man) enthusiastically told us that there wouldn't be an empty seat in the house! Before the end of it three quarters of the audience had left. We left when the sound level became physically painful.

So much for the wonderful Scola marquee. If it's the same next year we won't be back. But then, who gives a monkey's?

On the other hand, later on we went to Bromyard. I asked one of the organisers if there'd be a 'mosh pit' in the main concert marquee. He said "Over my dead body"! We'll go back to Bromyard. Even if there's mud a foot deep again.