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Jon Boden's right foot

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G-Force 07 Oct 08 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Stephen W 07 Oct 08 - 09:14 AM
lady penelope 07 Oct 08 - 09:16 AM
The Borchester Echo 07 Oct 08 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,eliza c 07 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM
Joseph P 07 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM
Brian Peters 07 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM
Dave Higham 07 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM
Joseph P 07 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM
open mike 07 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM
greg stephens 07 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM
open mike 07 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,sarahinnewcastle 07 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM
Marilyn 07 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM
greg stephens 07 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM
Mo the caller 07 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Oct 08 - 05:42 PM
JohnB 07 Oct 08 - 08:19 PM
JohnB 07 Oct 08 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Graham Bradshaw 08 Oct 08 - 07:30 AM
Marilyn 08 Oct 08 - 07:38 AM
Mo the caller 08 Oct 08 - 09:48 AM
Richard Bridge 08 Oct 08 - 08:27 PM
The Borchester Echo 09 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Alex 09 Oct 08 - 08:19 AM
The Borchester Echo 09 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM
Liz the Squeak 10 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM
Will Fly 10 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM
Folknacious 10 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM
The Borchester Echo 10 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM
The Borchester Echo 10 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM
Liz the Squeak 10 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM
The Borchester Echo 10 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Alex 10 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM
Mo the caller 10 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,glueman 10 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Oct 08 - 06:10 AM
Will Fly 11 Oct 08 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Liam 11 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM
lady penelope 11 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM
rodentred 11 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM
Mr Happy 12 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM
Liz the Squeak 13 Oct 08 - 03:09 AM
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Subject: Jon Boden's right foot
From: G-Force
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:02 AM

A bit more fall-out from Bromyard festival ...

What do people think of the 'stomp board' as played by Spiers and Boden (and loaned to Saul Rose of Faustus)? Basically a device to provide a bass-drum sound with the foot which sound engineers, being what they are, seem to feel obliged to mix as loud as possible.

Opinion among the people we were with ranged from hating it (to the point of leaving early in some cases) to tolerating it.

Personally I can see the point of it more in a big outfit like the Ratcatchers or Bellowhead, but a smaller group is spoiled by it. I tend to think that if you ain't got rhythm without a stomp board, then you ain't got rhythm.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,Stephen W
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:14 AM

It's never bothered me at all and I've seen J&J many times but always in small halls. Perhaps you just had an overenthusiastic sound engineer? It's never spoiled any of the concerts I've been to.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: lady penelope
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:16 AM

Any instrument is only as good as the person playing it and percussion/rhthym instruments are no different.

I can imagine this 'stomp board' being useful when a basic rhthym is required but people have run out of limbs (as it were). But that doesn't mean it will suit every situation and the sound still needs to be balanced.

I have a theory that many people (sound engineers espcecially) simply cannot hear a bass drum beat shortly after hearing it start - maybe their brains automatically 'tune out' regular beats and file under 'background noise', I dunno - and to keep 'hearing' it, they keep turning up the volume to the point where you can't possibly ignore it. Mind you, other people just like it LOUD!


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:17 AM

Jon Boden has been using the stomp box for about five years now. He made it himself and once posted instruction on how to make on on the S&B website. I've heard it many times and it's always been unobtrusively mixed. Cannot speak for Saul's performance as I've never seen him let loose with it.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM

The stomp box is part of Jon's sound; he uses it as a percussion instrument and has spent a lot of time learning clog rhythms and different beats. They always use the same engineer, Mark Whyles, who they started using after his stint as the sixth member of my band and then the Ratcatchers proved fruitful. He likes the beat loud, it's true, but it is an integral part of their sound: a musical choice, not just useful. Not everyone will like it unfortunately, but that's art for you.
x e


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Joseph P
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM

I cant commetn about Bromyard, but agree with Stephen W, it doesnt seem to be used too often when I've seen them, and when used is used well, adding to the music. They certainly dont seem to have a problem with keeping rhythm without it!


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

I thought they were fantastic at Bromyard, stomp box and all. It's great to hear a band using that very English, morris-dancey rhythm instead of just playing fast like everyone used to when they wanted to get the audience going.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Dave Higham
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

I was there and for me it was much too loud. I don't like that nasty thudding sensation in my chest. But then, I'm a sensitive soul (or a grumpy old fart, take your pick).


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Joseph P
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM

....maybe it was louder than usual then!


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: open mike
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

don't know about this stomper,
but several musicians have
percussive foot rhythm as an
integral part of their performance..

John Hartford, http://www.johnhartford.com/

Sandy Silva--http://www.sandysilvadance.com/
(first seen and heard with Mark Graham, Seattle,
in a duo named Hoof and Mouth! then with Open House then with:
Le Bottine Souriante, http://www.bottinesouriante.com/

Chris Smither, http://www.smither.com/

Natalie McMaster http://www.nataliemacmaster.com/


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM

Rory McLeod is a great man on the stomping foot to.I've sen him play for three and a half hours solid(not even a break for a pee), on his own with a stomp board, and a crowded venue all dancing. Great. I'm all for them (though I wasn't at the particular S&B gig being discussed)


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: open mike
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM

i happened to be watching this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO8TUMitTDU
while listening to John hartford's run little rabbit run..
and they were in perfect sync!!


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,sarahinnewcastle
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM

I really like it, I think it adds to the sound, I would love to have one, I 'stomp' my feet when playing in some songs that I get excitable in and a heavy round stomp sound would sound great in somethings.
is it like marmite? Love it or hate it?!


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Marilyn
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM

"is it like marmite? Love it or hate it?!"

Probably!
I'm one of the 'hate it' crowd. I left a S&B concert very early at Chester Festival this year because I couldn't cope with the thumping in my chest caused by the stomp board. It disturbs my heart rhythm and induces an angina attack - not a good thing to do!
I love S&B and really wanted to hear them live but could only last the first song and then had to leave.

I also had to leave a concert in the Ham at Sidmouth this year because the sound was too loud for me to cope with. Missed Last Night's Fun, I did!!

Common sense dictates that, as I find concerts in Marquees too loud and actually physically painful, I should go only to the smaller venues and preferably ones without PA at all.

Makes it a tricky decision as to whether to buy a season ticket. I really don't like going to a festival and not buying a season ticket but ...


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM

Marilyn: most festivals, I should imagine, have a variety of venues, from the big and noisy to the small and acoustic. That has mostly been my experience.And at a festival, there is normally plenty going on. You expect to check out an act you've read about in fRoots, or Mudcat. You toddle along, and give them a try. If they are boring, or too loud, or too out of tune, or too political,or too young, or too old, or too fat, or too short, or stamping too much on the the stomp board....well, you can go along to the other venues and see what's what, or stroll in the bar and see if there's a session going on. That's festivals.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM

I also found it too loud. We were feeling it rather than hearing it.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:42 PM

Feeling is good - but the sound is a matter of taste.

Kris Dollimore does it very well, but although he is English he is basically playing delta or chicago, and there it works well.

I don't like stompbox on English folk, although I have no problems with a full kit drummer (except Mattocks who dragged rather than swang)


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: JohnB
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:19 PM

We saw S&B a couple of years ago at Bromyard, we were sat in the Gimps and dogs row about 3/4 of the way back. My wife doesn't walk too great due to RA and mant joint replacements but at least she walks. Anyhow some friend were about 1/4 of the way from the stage and HATED the stomp box, whereas we thought it was fine. The sound guy is even further away than we were (it was Bromyard's usual guy although I forget his name). Bass response dies off pretty quickly and he is a sound guy who has been doing this for many years with the usual drop off in sensitivity which they all have but don't admit to.
If you think live sound is easy, try it yourself sometime and then you will be entitled to complain (that's if you can do it any better.
I know I can't, JohnB.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: JohnB
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:45 PM

Tha main Bromyard sound guy is Graham Bradshaw, he posted on the Shrewsbury FF thread. Maybe someone could get him to post here too.
JohnB


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:30 AM

Well JohnB, here I am. What do you want me to say?

Try this. I did the sound for S&B at Bromyard a few years back (which was the time you are referring to, I suspect). This year, they had their own sound engineer - Mark Whyles - who is also the engineer for Bellowhead (and also their manager), and is highly respected by folk musicians far and wide.

Now then, Mark mixes the stompbox much louder and bassier than I did or would. I cannot say whether this is right or wrong. It's a matter of musical taste. Mark, and S&B by assumption, obviously want it like this. Some like it, some don't. But I really don't think that any of us have any right to dictate how any artists presents themselves. It's a bit like telling Status Quo to turn the volume down.

At the final reckoning, audiences will vote with their feet (not stompboxes!!) and either come because they like it, or don't come because they don't. If nobody comes, then presumably the audience will have been vindicated, and the artist will change the way they do things.

Re volume levels in big tents. It is fairly obvious that it will be louder at the front than at the back. You can't fight the Laws of Physics - sound levels diminish over distance. Although high frequencies diminish quicker than bass frequencies. This is why you can only hear the bass at the other side of the field.

The PA system that I use is designed to minimise that difference, so that the volume at the back is very nearly the same as it is at the front. I won't go into the technicalities of this - far too long-winded and boring.

Interestingly, a few people at Shrewsbury this year complained because it wasn't LOUD ENOUGH at the front!!

Yes, I have been doing this for a long time, and have been continually striving to improve the quality of sound. I do a lot of festivals of all shapes and sizes - Bromyard, Shrewsbury and Warwick being 3 that have been mentioned. Every year, we seem to add more to the list. I assume that the organisers book us because they like what they hear elsewhere.

And yes, hearing does diminish both with age and with exposure to continued loud sounds. This is why I take my hearing very seriously, and no longer do gigs with heavy metal bands, and restict myself to folk. I also have my hearing checked regularly with a private Consultant who is one of the World's leading specialists in the field of noise damage from loud music. He says that my hearing is far better than most people of my age!!

So there you are - I've said a lot. I'll leave the rest of the discussion to you lot.

G


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Marilyn
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:38 AM

Greg: I'm new(ish) to folk music and last year was the first time I had ever been to a folk festival, so I'm on a learning curve.
I've learned now to look at the artist line-up very carefully and avoid big venues if there are any 'noisy' bands.

I'm a big fan of Spiers and Boden and have bought every one of their CDs. I really didn't expect to be overpowered by the sound in their act and was dreadfully disappointed to have to leave but realise that it was just bad luck and apportion no blame to them whatsoever. Actually, it was the act on before them that caused the problem for me; by the time S&B came on stage I was already feeling very ill but trying to hold on because I wanted to see them so much.

I know I can move on to another venue if the one I've gone to see doesn't suit but sometimes that doesn't work out. For example, at Sidmouth this year the concerts in the smaller venues had house full notices a lot of the time and you would need to queue early to get in. Even season ticket holders were turned away from some of them after queueing for ages! Turning up part-way through and expecting to get in just wouldn't work.

At smaller festivals there might not be much else going on apart from sessions and it does seem very extravagant to buy a season ticket and attend mainly fringe events.

I really enjoyed Sidmouth this year (my first time) in spite of not going to any Ham marquee concerts apart from the one I had to leave early. There was such a lot of other stuff going on that missing all the Ham concerts wasn't a problem. Will be back next year but will not buy a full season ticket. We have decided to buy a workshop only ticket and then pay for individual concerts in the smaller venues. Seems the sensible thing for us to do.

For Chester festival we will almost certainly still buy a full season ticket and, if we go to Whitby as hoped, will buy the full ticket there too. I just think we need to consider carefully whether or not a full season ticket represents good value for us before forking out any money.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:48 AM

It's worth looking at. I never buy a season ticket at Middlewich, all the fringe events are free and the concerts in the big marquee look as if they'd be loud. And the discount for buying a season ticket only applies if you go to most of them.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:27 PM

Shit I still do metal bands if I can get the gig and if it's too loud you're too old. I'm 60.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM

This thread reminds me of Martin Carthy joining Steeleye Span in 1971, getting a blue Telecaster and plugging it in.
"Too loud", they whinged.

Which in turn reminded me of Bob Dylan a few years earlier at Newport, plugging in and Pete Seeger going for the cable with bolt cutters.

Yes, if it's "too loud", you're too old.
In spirit, anyway, though I suspect you always have been.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:19 AM

It's a lovely story about Pete Seeger trying to cut the cable when Dylan went electric at Newport (the usual story is he attacked it with an axe) but unfortunately it's not true. Not according to Pete anyway.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM

According to the horse's mouth, he was at Newport with his father who was disturbed by the racket. Pete threatened to go and cut the cable, but didn't.
Don't suppose anyone would dare go for the stomp box, not with the lofty Mr Boden on top of it.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

Never heard it knowingly, but wouldn't this thread title make a great album name?

LTS


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

The loudest unaccompanied foot I ever heard was Spider John Koerner - God knows what he'd be like with a stomp box.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

Points various:

Surely the stomp box is just a modern electric variant on an old traditional practice - there are plenty enough stories of old blues players, fiddlers and squeezebox players in the 20s banging their feet on packing cases or whatever as part of their live act. Later, Lightning Hopkins (I think it was) apparently nailed bottletops on the bottom of his shoes. It was all a way of a solo musician making much more rhythmic noise when playing for dancing. I.e. excitement.

Spider John's feet. Yes! Enormous army boots banging away on incredibly long legs while he drove the guitar (7-string, ref another thread) like a rhythmic demon. A real experience.

Pete Seeger at Newprot/ the axe. Read Joe Boyd's book "White Bicycles" for the story of what actually happened rather tham myths and legends. He was there looking after the sound.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

The story as I received it was indeed from Mr Boyd as well as from some other artists who were in the vicinity. That's why I referred to the horse's mouth. I was not there myself, being stuck in a jam in upstate New York, probably several cars behind Joni Mitchell.

I was there at the first outing of the stomp box though.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

wouldn't this thread title make a great album name?

I think Daniel Day-Lewis already cornered the idea with the film title about the other foot.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM

My Left Foot, the story of Christy Moore, nothing to do with D D-Lewis except he was in the film...

Nah... not so catchy as Boden's Right Foot.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

OK, I realise it's not good form to mention anything BROWN at the mo . . .


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM

Newport Folk Festival organiser George Wein was with Pete Seeger when Dylan went electric in 1965 and gives a detailed account of Pete's reaction in his autobiography Myself Among Others. He says Pete was indeed incandescent with rage but simply stomped off to sit in the car park. "Several accounts of this fateful night have suggested that Pete threatened to cut the power cables. This wasn't the case. What he did - what all of us did - was wait, helplessly, while Dylan's entourage played." Pete himself has also denied on various occasions that he ever threatened to cut the cable with an axe or anything else.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM

I don't see that it's anything to do with age.
I know what I like, and if you like something different good luck to you.
I'll give things a try, but I don't see any reason why I shouldn't state my preference.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM

Folkies don't like big percussive bass sounds, full stop. It's what separates them from everyone else in popular music. It makes hem think a souped up Clio is driving past.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:10 AM

Thank deity of choice I'm not a "f*lkie" then.
I wouldn't limit myself to such a restrictive and narrow mentality.

[Off to sharpen metaphorical axes and bolt cutters]


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:33 AM

Who says folkies don't like big percussive bass bands? Some of the folk bands/groups I've seen over the years thrived on it.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM

Seth Lakeman uses one of these stomp boxes too and most effective it is; I seem to remember his saying he had the nickname of "Thumper" because he used one.

The Hurlers

Seth is a lot smaller than Jon, so it might be easier to grab his, but you might have to run the gauntlet of lots of crazed Sethettes to escape with it.


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: lady penelope
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

LOL!!!

Sound mix is always going to be a question of personal taste. But one thing I noticed at Towersey this year was sitting in my tent on camp site 2, I could hear the bass beat more clearly than when I was stood in the festival dance tent (also on camp site 2). How the heck does that work???


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: rodentred
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

well I saw S&B at Towersey and Chester this year an on both occasions the stomp box started to get on my nerves and detracted from the performance IMO. I have seen them several times before and am sure it was used more discriminately and sensitively (quieter?) and I enjoyed it. I guess you can have too much of a good thing.....


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

Since the advent of YTube, one needn't go to any concerts at FF's, since there's often too much good stuff in the way of sesshes, sinarounds, wkshops, dance displays etc all happening simultaneously - & what's more, you can control the volume/balance/loudness from the comfort of your own armchair!!


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Subject: RE: Jon Boden's right foot
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:09 AM

I've been going to Towersey every year bar one since 1986, where are these 'sinarounds' held? I've obviously been in the wrong Barn!

LTS


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