Loyd, MacColl, Hugill, Def Shanty Wax

Subject: Loyd, MacColl, Hugill, Def Shanty Wax
From: GUEST,NickE
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:16 PM

I have a the Recording of Stan Hugill at Mystic Seaport and I have an LP of BLOW BOYS BLOW with A.L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl (SP?). Not exactly pretty voices, great engineering or lots of showy ornamentation. I like it.

Who else out there was/is as "salty" in their performance style? While avoiding really bad voices and truly rotten recordings.
I know I've butchered the spelling of the names but I hope you get the Idea.

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: GUEST,freebornman
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:22 PM

Louis Killen - maybe you'd like him

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

Topic Records among others released a LOT od excellent material NickE ! And some of it IS on CD now

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:29 PM

And Louis K lived in USA For A LONG Time too ! Made a damn fine album with Sally in 1975 !

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:36 PM

Go on out to the Smithsonian / Folkways web site. You'll find
plenty. The Sam Larner recordings are priceless. At ten bucks
a CD that stuff can't be beat. The San Francisco Sea Music
Festival stuff is great. And the X-Seaman's Institute music
(I'm not neutral here---- I've been in a band with a member
of the X-, Frank Woerner, and the late Bernie Klay was a friend
and mentor).

Tom Sullivan's "Salt Atlantic Chanteys" recorded on an Atlantic
crossing on the Brig Unicorn. The real stuff.

Go to the Mystic Seaport web site and order any of the Festival
recordings.

Or any of the "Forebitter" music.

Look for recordings by "The Morgans" or by Don Sineti. Stan said
Don was the closest to a "real" chanteyman he'd ever heard.

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:46 PM

And Greg knows what he is talking about .

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM

Nick-

BLOW BOYS BLOW was certainly an inspirational recording for me; I still sing some of those songs after forty years.

Another set of recordings I'd recommend is by the Boarding Party, available from Folk-Legacy Records.

Enjoy!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: JWB
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:10 PM

Nick,

Another recording of "real" voices is "Sea Songs & Shanties: Traditional English Sea Songs & Shanties from the last days of sail", on Saydisc Records. All tracks were recorded between 1950 and 1960 by Peter Kennedy, and feature Bob Roberts (the last of the sailing barge captains), Harry Cox, Bob and Ron Copper, and the Cadgwith Fisherman. Not pretty, but pretty authentic sounding.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:23 PM

Guest NickE- here are a couple of paths to some of Louis Killen's recordings.
http://www.answers.com/topic/louis-killen
http://www.waterbug.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=55
Carter B

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: cptsnapper
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:50 AM

There's also Sea Shanties And Sailor Songs by the Shanty Crew, led by Chris Roche, on Brewhouse Records

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:38 AM

Anything by ' The Keelers ' or ' Kimbers Men '

eric

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:28 AM

Shanties were work songs - the shantymen were aiming to get the work done, not make 'pretty' sounds.
When McColl, Lloyd et al introduced the shanties in the early days they attempted to strike a balance between the function of the songs and the aesthetics - personally I thought they did a good job of it - it's stayed with me for forty years.
For me, the best of the shanty singers don't let you forget what they are about. Lloyd once remarked about a group who were notorious for producing pretty and complex harmonies on shanties "They sound very nice but they wouldn't get a rowing boat across a park lake".
As far as authenticity, the recordings made in the 50s of A H Rasmussen stand out a mile. The BBC mucked up some great shanty singing from a shantyman named Stanley Slade by adding a BBC chorus, complete, I believe, with dinner suits and bow ties. Stan Hugill had a reputation as a good shantyman but I have never made up my mind about his singing.
The Library of Congress released 2 albums entitled 'American Sea Songs and Shanties' from recordings made in the 30s and 40s.
The most enjoyable set of shanties on record by revival singers are, IMO those on the two Argo albums by the Critics Group released in the late 6os.
A Dub friend once told me that the nearest he'd ever heard to genuine shanty singing was from a gang of men on a Dublin street pulling a large electrical cable through an underground pipe, with the ganger singing out the instructions and the labourers grunting the response in time to the work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM

Just turned up my Stanley Slade 78 while I was moving some records from one room to another the other night and it reminded me exactly how incongrous his natural vocals were against the formal cut glass tones of the chorus. Regarding the cable pulling episode I actually saw this happening in Newcastle early one Sunday morning c1967.

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: meself
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:50 AM

Not what the OP is looking for, but for the record, there is a two-CD set of field recordings from the Helen Creighton collection, entitled 'Songs of the Sea'. Some of these are shanties; others are ballads with nautical themes, sung mainly by old salts. Unfortunately, this is the only place I've found to purchase it on the net - little info. given.

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: meself
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:54 AM

Correction: you can't buy the CDs through that site; they suggest you make a little trip to Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, and stop in during business hours ...

(Maybe George Seto can help here, if he catches this thread).

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:42 AM

snip ---Bob Roberts (the last of the sailing barge captains),---

Just a little correction to that - Bob was the skipper of the 'Cambria' - the last Thames Sailing Barge barge trading under sail ALONE - there were quite a few more still in trade after Bob sold the Cambria, but they were auxilliary or motor barges. There are quite a few barges still sailng at present - mostly on charter work, a few in private ownership.

See - http://www.cambriatrust.org.uk/

http://www.bargetrust.org/index.html

http://www.sailingbargeresearch.org.uk/

Dave [member of TSBT and SSBR]

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

Back in the late 60s I was on board the Halcian, a 98 ton ketch. We tied up in Falmouth harbour & the engineer decided to take the winch to bits. He'd just dismantled it when the Harbour Master told us to move 200 yards up the quay. Using 'Norwegian Steam' we pulled her along, with me acting as shantyman. When we tied up 2 waiters from the hotel opposite came out with pints of beer. "The old captain's bought the drinks, & asked us to tell you that that's the first shanty he's heard in over 50 years"! As anyone who's had the misfortune to hear me sing will verify I don't have the greatest of singing voices, but, that old captain's comment is still the greatest compliment I've ever had.

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Greg B
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM

I'm not so sure I hold with MacColl's pronouncement of
"They sound very nice but they wouldn't get a rowing boat across a park lake" as applies to any working singers.

His expertise was, after all, not inclusive of either rowing boats
or park lakes. He was a musician and actor.

As a counter-example, I offer up the Menhaden Chanteymen; both the
field recordings and their later performances suggest that they were
indeed fine singers who made a fine sound...while at work.

I would expect that in any places where chance brought talented
voices together to sing while at work, the things occurred which
most often occur when good singers get together.

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:11 PM

I really like Jim Carroll's story of shanteying by a gang of cable pullers. Wish I'd thought of that when pulling TV distribution cable through underground conduit (with a few 60 degree turns in most of them) in the early 70s in San Francisco. Most of my workmates would have been quick studies on it- most were sailors.   
Carter B

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: meself
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM

"When we tied up 2 waiters from the hotel opposite ... "

You sound like a scurvy lot of pirates to this landlubber!

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Effsee
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM

GregB, the remark was made by A.L.Lloyd, not MacColl...and Bert was a whalerman at one time IIRC>

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:18 PM

If anybody cares to dig around I seem to remember that there was an article on bawdy and obscene shanties published at at one time -if that's what turns you on. Incongruously enough I think it was in Dance and Song (but I may be way off the beam on this one).
Collector Tom Munnelly (the source of my information about cable pulling) always said that he was surprised that there were no shanties collected in Ireland (not to say that there weren't Irishmen at sea who sang them); but he once recorded a beautiful description from Irish language storyteller Henry Blake of sailing ships going down the Shannon and the sound of the shanties drifting across the water on the night air. Try and get hold of Tom's article, published in Béaloideas entitled Songs of The Sea - a classic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:01 PM

PS Thanks for putting therecord straight Effsee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Loyd, McColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

I have actualy sung shanties, for people to work to, on a floating vessel! The fact that it was a raft on the River Irwell and we were rowing it is irrelevent:-) Couple of funny things attached - the raft was built to a very exacting specification - It had to fit on the roof rack of a Lada estate. The four paddles were all imprinted with the legend 'Swinton Folk Club'. One young lad took one look and asked us why we needed to club folk in Swinton. We only finished somewhere in mid-field but we were one of the very few vessels to finish intact and with a dry crew:-)

Anyway - Back to shanties. Shame our 'Cranky Yankee' Jody, rest his soul, is no longer about. I was fascinated by his insights into the use of a song to work to. He often said anything at all would do provided it had a strong rhythm. I only found out, though him, that the holding of a note (Eg - Too-rye-ayyyyyyyyyyy-oooooooooooh Too-rye-ay, as in John Kanaka) was to give the rope time to shrink back. Pulling it in time for too long just resulted in a 'bungee' effect!

As to the original question - I think most of the 'salty dogs' have been covered. I would suggest though, Nick, that some of the 'prettier' voices are just as listenable - I won't give names, just let you find them:-) I think the songs in this case are the thing and anyone that can bring them to life deserves respect. Good Luck in your search.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Loyd, MacColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:35 PM

Tom Sullivan's "Salt Atlantic Shanties" was recorded between Boston, MA & Mystic,CT in '79.

Subject: RE: Loyd, MacColl, Hugil, Def Shanty Wax
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:52 PM

There are two Folktrax recordings of Bob Roberts.
Lou Killen has three: "A Seaman's Garland", "Sailors, Ships and Shanteys", and "Steady as She Goes".
The Boarding Party has three CDs.
There'a Coming of Age by Jim Mageean & Johnny Collins
There's Sam Larner's Now is the Time For Fishing
There are three fine ones by Danny Spooner
There are three CDs recorded at the Mystic Sea Music Festival

There are lots of other very good ones.
All available from CAMSCO Music, of course

Subject: RE: Loyd, MacColl, Hugill, Def Shanty Wax
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

If you'd like to hear one of those updated 'Dreadnought' voices (Neil Downey) that was recorded on Tom Sullivan's "Salt Atlantic Shanties" go to "Finn & Haddie's web site. He's Haddie in the duo of Finn & Haddie & you'll find clips & sound bites there of the CD "Fathom Tihs' with him on it.

I don't apologize for this blatant promotion of where you can find 'sole in your shanties'.

Barry

Subject: RE: Loyd, MacColl, Hugill, Def Shanty Wax
From: mark gregory
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 08:38 PM

regarding cable pulling I saw Indian workers pulling telephone cable by hand in Kolkata (Calcutta) in 2000 outside the Tolley Gunge old people's home and what they sang sounded close enough to a shanty!

BTW I have just finished reading Ted Gioia's book "work songs" and he has a whole chapter on shanties and in his Epilogue points to the importance of such songs to our lives" "the call and response is ... a rich metaphor to consider. But in the world of the work song ... this was more than a metaphor, but an actual way of navigating through the often brutal realities of a hostile environment. For this reason the work song is especially deserving of our attention."

Haul Away Ted!