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Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &

peregrina 12 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
Jack Blandiver 12 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM
peregrina 12 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Oct 08 - 06:06 PM
Jack Campin 12 Oct 08 - 07:12 PM
M.Ted 12 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM
peregrina 13 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM
Les in Chorlton 13 Oct 08 - 03:33 AM
peregrina 13 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM
Janie 13 Oct 08 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Jim 14 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM
Jayto 15 Oct 08 - 11:26 AM
peregrina 15 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM
GUEST 29 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM
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Subject: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: peregrina
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

Is the Tyne to the music of Northumbria as the Mississsippi--Alan Lomax's 'Great River of Song' is to the music of the American South?

--Each a great river, a hive of activity and industries and their communities, a corridor for transport and cultural interaction, with a huge place in the imagination; and both regions, areas where distinct local styles have absorbed influences from incomers to transform and enrich themselves?

To go South from the Tyne, now into county Durham, for an example of musical mixing across both sides of the Atlantic: Mark Knopfler's 'Hill Farmer's Blue' from his CD Ragpickers Daughter. The musical idiom is indebted to an American rootsy, bluesy sound. But town where the farmer goes for the razor wire and weed killer is Tow Law.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM

Legend has it that Alan Lomax first met Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd when they were doing a concert of traditional folk songs for the locals at a WMC in Tow Law. I wish I'd been there to witness this historical moment of cultural & political patronisation.

I love Tow Law; until a year ago we lived nearby and enjoyed frequent nocturnal visits to the Chinese Takeaways, Dans Castle especially; I especially love the majestic (though entirely useless) windfarm; never made it to the butterfly farm, but we bought our coal from Bevingtons of Inkerman, who also fuelled the Tow Law carcass burning during the Foot & Mouth crisis - I can still smell the fall out! Looking for that perfect winter break? Make it Tow Law - the jewel of the A68.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: peregrina
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

Thanks Insane Beard. That's fascinating. Lomax, MacColl and Lloyd in Tow Law...

I have just been to Tow Law, listening to Northumbrian music en route, then Knopfler on my return. Hence the thread.

But back Northwards: the Tyne and Missippi--are they analogues? I know you are immersed in Northeastern things, so what do you think?

Or is there an equivalent in another country of the symbolic and cultural distinctness of the Appalachians and Rockies? Mountains no less than rivers sustain musical cultures and at the same time have mythic qualities in the inagination. Rocky Mountain High, Clinch Mountain Home, The Mountains of Mourne...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 06:06 PM

"Or is there an equivalent in another country of the symbolic and cultural distinctness of the Appalachians and Rockies? Mountains no less than rivers sustain musical cultures and at the same time have mythic qualities in the inagination. Rocky Mountain High, Clinch Mountain Home, The Mountains of Mourne..."

There sort of is in Ukraine. The Carpathians, in the West have their own traditions, dialect and music, which are rather different to the plains in the East, where Russian influence has been stronger. There is a tradition of wasailing, which has died out elsewhere. Life in the Carpathians was also more isolated, kind of like the Apalachians. There are also a lot more Polish and German influences than in the east. Fiddles, flutes, whistles and cimbaloms are common, whereas in the east instruments are sparse, often only an accordeon. How could I forget alpine horns! The choreography in this one is fairly modern and stilted, but you get the idea. ww w.youtube. com/watch?v=ucuD01CR9bM&feature=related
This is a bit more like it. www .youtube. com/watch?v=9uwBy75BOTE&feature=related
http:// www. youtube. com/watch?v=OU8w8UN77E0&feature=related

A pop treatment. www .youtube .com/watch?v=7S4-kZJMo_4&feature=related

This is the real deal.
www .youtube .com/watch?v=QejogvxnZc0&feature=related
This is fun. www. youtube. com/watch?v=Z4OIJWY0cX8&feature=related


Here are some examples of Eastern Ukranian music, performed by a Cossack Choir from the Kuban, which is in Russia! That musical tradition has mostly died out in Eastern Ukraine, but was kept going by the Kuban Cossacks, who are descended from Ukrainian Cossacks.
www. youtube .com/watch?v=qmKa4PXW2zI
www. youtube. com/watch?v=TDiuz-qC1rI&feature=related
www. youtube .com/watch?v=jx7_x2ehpIg&feature=related

For those interested, here is a bit of modern folklore from central Ukraine, which is a mix of both. www. youtube .com/watch?v=bKT9_fu7M_Q&feature=related


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 07:12 PM

Rivers: the Danube has to have been the greatest geographical tradition-mixer in Europe, linking Turkic, Slavic, Magyar, Greek, Germanic, Gypsy and Romanian peoples.

In Turkey the great isolated mountain area is the Kackar range paralleling the Black Sea. It's fissured into deep valleys entirely cut off from each other except along the coastal strip; so each valley has its own relict culture, still largely autonomous - Turkic groups separated from all others since the Middle Ages, Islamicized Armenians, Laz, Georgians. And formerly Greeks maintaining their own culture and language completely independent of Greece as we know it today. One of these cultures probably invented the bagpipe, and one of them (the Avshar) produced Dadaloglu, the poet who wrote the most forceful of all statements of mountain people's independence: "the order is the Sultan's - the mountains are ours".


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM

Mountains tend to preserve culture, rivers tend to spread culture. Though mountains still shield pockets of tradition, I think that rivers no longer hold the sway that the once had.

Beyond that, I think that that "Great American River of Song" concept is problematic--the great movement of culture in the US has been from East to West. The fact that cities along the Mississippi have had active music cultures at various times likely has as much or more to do with the fact that the river divided East and West, and music spread laterally from them, rather than that the river itself was a conduit for music.

A small example is that the medicine show circuits didn't follow the river--


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: peregrina
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM

Thanks all, fascinating.


So the Mississippi is less a conduit for music than a subject for song?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:33 AM

Liverpool, the Mersey, Sea shanties, the world?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: peregrina
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

Thanks all! Maybe time for a River thread someday...


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: Janie
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:26 PM

I mostly agree with what you say, M. Ted, especially that rivers, at least in North America, no longer hold sway.

However, I think if one were to look at the dispersal of music and cultural influences to the east and west of the Mississippi, it is likely one would discover that the early inroads were still along the rivers. However, in the East, the march of settlement by Europeans travelled upriver for the most part, except for the Ohio and Mississippi. I'm guessing that for some distance West of the Mississippi, the main routes and paths of settlement (and dispersement of culture and musical influences) also tended, early on anyway, to follow the rivers and streams flowing into the Mississippi on it's western shore. In the central Appalachians, the only way into the mountains was to follow the rivers upstream.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM

cc


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: Jayto
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:26 AM

I agree with both of you (M.Ted and Janie). It still boggles my mind how abruptly the predominant musical style changes though as you travel from the Appalachians to the Mississippi river. It is not subtle at all. You can hear some traces of a musical change if you hit the right crowd of musicians but for the most part it is a very dynamic change. Here in Kentucky I guess that is to be expected if you view the overall behavior, beliefs, and speech patterns of the people. It is very diverse so I guess the music would reflect that. You 2 have spurred thought with me thanks.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: peregrina
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM

Fascinating, makes me want to travel around there and hear the music and observe these musical borders myself...

This thread might need a new title--any suggestions (rivers and musical boundaries, traditions' territories? but I wanted a melting pot in there too...)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: musical melting pots, comparisons &
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM


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