BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 12:38 AM

Yeah. Boy, it's a damn shame that Chongo doesn't have dual citizenship, eh? ;-) I have a feeling he's going to be a free agent after the American election is over in November. He'd be way better than Dion, and he'd blow Harper right off the stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Bee
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 12:45 AM

As for the Liberals, there's a significant cadre that really likes Ignatieff, for whom I frankly don't care at all - in quite a few ways, he's more bush-lite than Harper, too hawkish by far, and was thirty years out of Canada.

Elizabeth, I think, never thought she had a chance, was surprised to win the fight to get into the debate. I think initially she thought running against MacKay would raise her profile nationally because of it being Peter.

I do admire Elizabeth to some extent, but I think she has the capacity to be ruthless about people. I also wish she'd quit name-dropping - she makes damn sure everybody knows that she personally knows Bill Clinton. Her family came here (to Margaree) from the states when she was quite young. Her parents were eccentric to say the least, nice enough people, but they riled people in Margaree regularly by promoting environmental issues that directly adversely affected their neighbours.

Margaree was what you might call 'insular'. I knew an old Acadian man in the area whose main source of pride was that he'd used a draft horse and a stone sledge to clear the entire side of a mountain on his farm over the years. That and the twenty-one children he and his wife had. (I love that family, actually - they were very kind to me).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:00 AM

"and he'd blow Harper right off the stage."

I wish someone would. It'd loosen him up a bit, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:15 AM

I enjoyed that.
Not the result I was hoping for but a healthy mandate just the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:27 AM

Healthy is 50% plus one. His governemnt will fall within a year and a half, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:55 AM

No way to know, Bruce.
The names and faces are about to change so fast,
you'll think you're in a time warp.
Ignatieff and Dusanj are already making noises about Dion.
Harper & Layton may be safe. Hard to say.
Ms. May is Probably toast.
Watch Duceppe though.
By this time tomorrow, Quebeccers will really be
asking themselves some tough questions.
Like "Why did we just vote for the only party
that doesn't participate?".
They vote for the Bloc but expect the elected government
to take care of them.
Time those guys crossed the floor to whichever party each of them wants and fold up the damn tent.
"If it's good for Quebec" is getting old and spoiling elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:01 AM

Canada voter turnout lowest on record:

Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:04am EDT (Reuters) - Canadians shunned the polls during Tuesday's general election with the lowest voter turnout on record, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation said.

Some 58 percent of eligible Canadian voters went to the polls on election day, based on preliminary results, breaking the previous record low turnout of just under 61 percent in 2004, the CBC said.

Election Canada officials were not immediately available to comment on Wednesday morning.

Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper, the first Western leader to face the electorate since the start of the global financial crisis, won reelection with a bolstered minority government.

(Reporting by Richard Valdmanis; Editing by Eric Walsh)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:00 AM

"there's a significant cadre that really likes Ignatieff, ... he's more bush-lite than Harper"

Bee, I'd fear he's more Bush-heavy than Harper. I started off liking his intelligence but, (((((shudder)))) oh boy, he ain't no PET reincarnate. (So Son of Pierre made it in, I see?)

And I really have to say (again) that Canada needs to get some sort of proporational representation voting system. NOT the one they tried to sell in Ontario of late - but SOME type. For the Bloc to get 10% of the popular vote and 50 seats, and NDP to get 18.2% and 37 seats is just stupid.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM

Coulda been worse. I figure it was Carbonehead.

58%... shameful!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Raptor
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM

I'd gladly pay a carbon tax.

No one else gives a shit about the environment.

Those who voted NDP or otherwise keep telling yourself that spitting votes against baby-bush didn't get us another dysfuntional government.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Bee
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

Sian, I never thought he was any more intelligent than average; he just sounds that way because he's an academic. I've never heard him say anything of much real substance, just a fair amount of gung-ho send-the-boys-to-war crap back when he was running for the Liberal leadership, which he may get now. I'd guess it's the only reason he's still in Canada, hoping for that chance to make a grab for power.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:03 AM

Although that elections over, folks here may be interested in reading this daily kos diary and its comments:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/14/83926/514/541/630017
Canada: an overview of where things stand
by heritage watch
Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 06:20:43 AM PDT

**

That diary begins with a listing and succient explanation of Canada's provinces and those provinces' politics going into last nights' election:

"Now for a quick tour of Canada.

NEWFOUNDLAND: The Tories (Conservatives) held the three St. John's seats, the Liberals the four rural ones, but they are the victim of Danny William's ABC campaign and may be shut out. It is all but guaranteed that St. John's East will go NDP, while the other two will probably go Liberal. NDP has a small chance still in St. John's South.

P.E.I.: Completely Liberal since 1988, the two westernmost seats are too close to call, given that Dion's Green Shift came down like a lead balloon here.

NOVA SCOTIA: The NDP has their best Maritime results here and have improved during the campaign. They have 2 very close targets and an outside chance in 3 others. The Tories need to hold Central Nova from the NDP and Green leader Elizabeth May, the South Shore from the NDP and possibly grab West Nova from the Grits (Liberals). The Liberals have nothing to look forward to; Independent Sean Casey will have no problems.

NEW BRUNSWICK: The best prospects for the Tories are here in the Western, Anglophone half of the province, with 3 potential gains. Whether the NDP vote can be squeezed will decide the outcome.

QUEBEC: The Bloc managed to beat back the Tories and is threatening them in the Saguenay and Quebec City. An NDP vote squeeze is key; advance voting in Quebec City is VERY HIGH. Elsewhere they're pretty much set to go.
Montreal is a bit different, where they must defend two very vulnerable seats from the Grits. Both MPs were in one of their ads, and face the former MP in one and Justin Trudeau in the other. The NDP needs to hold Outremont, which should'nt be too hard, and possibly snatch Westmount although this is unlikely.
In Gatineau one Liberal and one BQ MP must stave off the NDP; Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon should be reelected.

ONTARIO: It appears the Liberals have regained the lead. The NDP is quite strong in the province, possibly as high as 26%, and needs to protect one endangered incumbent in Hamilton, make a few gains in the South and romp in the North, mostly at the Liberals expense. It is unclear if and how much the Tories will extend into Toronto; the 416 area code is OK for the Liberals except downtown. Gerard Kennedy was trailing in a recent poll, another poll has the Grit lead there over the NDP cut by two-thirds which could precipitate a couple of losses.

MANITOBA: St. Boniface could fall to the Tories, Churchill in the North to the NDP.

SASKATCHEWAN: The NDP have a couple of too-close-to-cll targets but have improved recently. The Liberals will hold Wascana but not regain the seat they lost in the recent by-election.

ALBERTA: Safe, safe Tory. Well, one exception. Edmonton-Strathcona is too close and some Liberals plan to vote strategically.

B.C.: Whoa! polling is a bit all over the place. The Tories expect to pick up at least 4 seats on the basis of a low Liberal vote. The NDP might pick off a couple, but must defend the open Surrey North and ultra-maginal Vancouver Island North. The Liberals only have a chance in Saanich-Gulf Islands against Nat. Res. Min. Gary Lunn, where the NDP candidate withdrew. The Greens might be out of luck; their best results are here.

NORTH: Yukon: Liberal NWT: NDP win with fairly strong Tories. NUNAVUT: Too close, but the Tories may pick this open seat up from the Grits."

-snip-

Here's one comment from that diary:

this beginning sentence refers to comments written by other posters one who said that Harper is the Sarah Palin of Canadian politics and one who said, among other things, that Harper is a realist

"My view

Markmc03 is too cruel and Doctor Nick is too kind.

Harper is a LOONEY, no question, BUT unlike American LOONEY's he has PROMISED to keep his wingnut religious views OUT of his governing. And SO FAR has kept his word. In Canada the Conservatives are actually a coalition of the Reform Party (the wingnut party Harper comes from) and the Conservatives (what would be the civilized, small government, fiscal conservative end of the Republican Party).

On the other hand Nick is too unconcerned about Harper's Fundy connections. Many Conservative ridings are controlled by the Fundy wing of that party. I DO NOT trust Harper to keep the crazy-right at bay IF he has a Majority government.

Personally, I hope that a Liberal (centerist Democrat) / NDP (Social Democrats - leftist Kucinich type Democrats) coalition government would win.

The results ARE NOW IN and show a Conservative Minority. Any MINORITY is better than a Conservative Majority.

The governing party in Canada for MOST of the last 100 years has been the middle of the road Liberals (by US standards they are left center) this election they had a leader (Dion) who was very poor in English and couldn't win Ontario (think California + NY as far as impact is concerned). Dion will step down and his replacement will bring the Liberals up enough so that next time the Liberals will at least trade places with the Conservatives.

Canada is basically a small "L" liberal country. Moderate - sober - universal health - law abiding.

Very much what the US should bebut has never been able to achieve".

by Mylegacy on Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 09:22:17 PM PDT

**

Also, this comment and lyrics were included in another comment from that diary:

"I suppose while waiting for the news to come "riding" in :-)...you could try humming this to a certain tune.

O Canada
our home and native land....
We vote today
clos-ing a 6 week campaign
From the Maritimes
to Saskatchewan we'll cast our votes in thee.
Our Mounties vo-ting in Yellow Knife
A Palin menace they can see!
God keep our land
Cheney-Bush free
O Canada we stand on guard for thee
O Canada our bacon is tas-tee!"

by WineRev on Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 06:43:53 AM PDT

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: bankley
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

Duceppe bloqs Harper, the puck stops here... leave it to a Que. 'Nationalist' to give the whole country a reprieve from a full throttle Bubble Boy Bilderberg agenda....
now the PM will have to get even more sneaky...

$300,000,000 later...



congrats to Justin Trudeau...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:23 AM

In regards to the Peace post "Canada voter turnout lowest on record"

In regards to my first post in this thread ... "Is there an election in Canada today ??"

... that's the problem ... all summed up it = apathy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:44 AM

Yeh, Bee, you're probably right. At one point (some years ago) Ignatieff was probably better 'known' to British BBC Radio 4 listeners than he was (is?) to Canadians. He seemed to be cropping up a lot, commentating on various things. He was, quite often, interesting. Then he pops up in Canada, running for party leader, and I had a chance to form a whoooooole different opinion of him.

Good luck Canada - you're gonna need it.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Bee
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM

Well, I'm not as scared of Harper as some - that's a man who loves power, loves being PM, and will do anything to hold onto it, even when that means caving to socialist concerns. In his first election, he muzzled the more right-wing fundies in his own party, and has not let them off-leash since gaining power. I doubt he will through this government, either. I also think, contrary to some, that the man actually does love his country and means well: I just don't often agree with what he thinks is good for the country. I also think he hasn't been very fiscally responsible - the Liberals, astoundingly, seem much better at economics.

I do not want to see an Ignatieff led Liberal party, although it's an outside possibility that making him leader would marginalize the Liberal left so much that it would give the NDP an actual shot at forming government.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:20 AM

Well Harper stays at the helm with less than 38% of the vote. He calls that a mandate! 62% of voters didn't want the bastard!      Democracy this ain't!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Bee
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM

Take comfort, Sandy: Canadians destroyed the Conservatives before, we can do it again if they get too uppity.

ABC worked for Nfld and Lab., the rest of us can see that it's an option.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM

In Alberta, conservatives are solid; people I talked to would prefer a more forceful leader, but voted Harper if they voted at all. Usually support signs are fairly common on lawns, but in my area, they were rare, and only joking talk at the local cafes.

The Greens came in second in a couple of Calgary ridings (although a small percentage), explained by some as "I don't like Harper, but the Liberals are dead, so what the hell!"

I am not disparaging the Greens, its aims are laudable, but much of their vote in Calgary seems to be just a protest against the two major parties here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 12:54 PM

There's a guy who comes to our song circle and the particular bee in his bonnet is that he hates ALL politicians so much that he wants everyone to STOP voting. His wish is that all people in Canada should stop voting so as to bring the system grinding to a halt.

This is a wish somewhat akin to Don Quixote's quest in its utter futility, but he goes on and on about it.

I sure hope I'm never in the same room if he happens to run into one of you who is so passionate about the importance of everyone getting out and voting.... ;-) Man, what a shitstorm that would turn into.

Me, I don't care either way. If a person wants to vote, fine and good. If they don't want to...(shrug)...that's up to them.

Just don't tell me I have to do it your way, that's all...whatever way your way is. I don't have to do it any particular way. I might choose to vote. I might not. Life will go on in Canada regardless of what I do, and it's no one else's concern as to what my choice might be...nor is it my concern as to what theirs might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

The man is an excellent manager.
Not sure where your coming from, Sandy but name calling does nothing to strengthen any argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Bee
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

Given that challenge, I will now devote my life to making Little Hawk do things my way.

I'll sing GRITS if you don't, LH, I swear I will. <cue ominous twang of poorly tuned guitar...>

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

Ha! ;-) Good luck. My dad tried to make me do things his way for almost 60 years. He died 2 years ago without having ever succeeded in that objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM

If Harper does last 4 years, Justin will be almost 42... I'd like to see Frank get in for about 8 to 10 years and train Justin and then... look out... he could build upon what Frank would build. Wow man!

Hey, I wished for a minority and it came true... why not wish big?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

I wished for a minority government too. By gosh, the election turned out as I had hoped it would!

This could be a first.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM

My vote for the Green Party didn't give Harper this election. I live in Yellowhead riding, and last election Merrifield--a good man, btw--won with over 20,000 votes. His nearest competitor had something in the area of 7,000 votes.I think I recall that had the three other big parties (Lib, ND and Cristian Heritage Party (don't ask)) put their votes together, Merrifield would still have won. I try my best to vote for the folks who will fuck us up slowest. As for the Bloc, back in the early late 1970s, the rest of Canada turned its back on us when we were stripped of our English language rights with Bill 101, often referred to as Bill 401, the 401 being the multi-lane highway that goes from Montreal to Toronto. The problem this election was neither the Bloc nor the Conservatives! It was the NDs and the Liberals. They are so damned worried about THEIR philosophies running the country and THEIR seats that they could not negotiate common ground to combine and win a minority election. My first words to anyone in Alberta other than the friend I drove out with in 1976/7 occurred in a Calgary bar when some loud-mouthed son of a bitch talked in a loud voice about how bad the French were. I told him to go fuck himself, and that if westerners had half the balls they thought they did, English speakers in Quebec wouldn't be hiding in classrooms teaching English to new immigrants. Yes, they hid because it was illegal to teach people from other countries English, and the 'language police' were always looking for people who were doing so. Not ONE province in this country supported us in Quebac. NOT ONE! I was in Quebec when the FLQ was active. I despise them and all they stand for, but where were MY fellow Canadians when we got fucked by Bill 101? Where?

As a btw, half my family is French. And I was one of those who returned to Quebec for the VERY close vote regarding Quebec's separation. That time my vote really counted. This time? Fuck the Liberals and NDs for being such wimp-asses that they put themselves before this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:43 PM

Right on Peace! Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

You're quite correct, Bruce. The Liberals and the NDP should merge into a single party at this point, but they'd both have to put aside their innate self-centeredness to do that...and they won't. They both want to be the only number one. Too bad for Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Bee
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

Oh sure, Little Hawk, but your dad probably never sang Ghost Riders in the Sky at you. (I like that song, dang it; too bad it's so often ridiculed by the masses).

On party leaders: we ain't got none. I'm beginning to think like my father in law: "He ain't no Diefenbaker.", and that goes for all of them. Hell, none of them are even a Jean Chretien, or a Trudeau, let alone a Pearson. I've been an NDP supporter for many years, but Layton is embarassing. Can we elect Rick Mercer next time around?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

77 + 37 = 114 ???

And, the Ls are struggling with infighting as it is. What would a merger do?

Better that they stay as is? Or am I missing sommat?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM

It's like fighting, Gnu. YOU set the timing and tempo. A united party would gain momentum and give some of the 42% who didn't vote an option other than "The Cons are getting in anyway, so why waste my time." That's how I see it, anyway. Hell, I've been wrong before.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM

Your math is in error, gnu. Had the Liberal and NDP votes not in effect cancelled each other out in various ridings which the Conservatives won, the Conservatives would not have won those ridings...and they would not have gained nearly as many ridings.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:55 PM

It's all Politiks guys ..... I just vote for the least mainstream and most radical candidate who is distanced farthest from the machine and who would deliver the most positive radical social humanaity minded changes .... in most cases these inidividuals never get voted in ... but my vote is a number somewhere along with others inidcating that there are those of us out their demanding a much needed change from the status quo.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

That's what I usually do too. I laugh when I think of how this is all going to look from a much more distant vantage point...such as beyond this life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM

It's hilarious when you really think about LH.

somewhat sad, yes ... but damned hilarious in a keystone cop (politican style) sort of way.

iLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

Jeez!
As mathematicians, you make great musicians.
Uniting the left would make it into a two horse race and would certainly give folks a clear choice.
However, that's not to say that the Conservatives wouldn't get a lot of those votes too.
The real problem goes back to what I said, way up there, about Paul Martin moving too far to the left.
He gave up the centre.
The Conservatives took over and since then, there has been no party on the right.
The real solution would probably present itself in the collapse of the Liberal party.
The Liberals can't get the centre back and the NDP, which has always been the protest party, is too well established to be pushed aside.
Keep in mind too that despite what the pundits say, this is as close to a majority as any party can reasonably expect to be as long as one self interest group clings to 50 out of 75 seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

LH... well, if yer gonna say that they should do, how can you predict what they will do, if they haven't done? I am dealing with the math as it stands.

If we are allowed to conjecture... Frank for PM and he gives Justin a bunch of portfolios so that he can continue where Frank leaves off in 12 to 16 years.... if we get through the next 4 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:10 PM

Hey gnu, tell us why you think Frankie would make a good PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:12 PM

Well...why don't you and JimLad see if you can sort it out, gnu. You both seem to have very definite ideas about the math. ;-)

I'm simply suggesting that the Liberals and the NDP swallow their pride...the way the PC's and Reform did some years back...and amalgamate into a single party.

Or...we get proportional representation.

Or...I buy a new set of guitar strings.

Whatever. ;-)

I am not going to lose much sleep over the matter, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM

If the Libs and NDP had gotten more seats than Harper they could and perhaps would have formed a coalition and demanded that the GovGen. hand power to them. Now however, the Libs are so weak that they will cower before Harper's imtimidation as they have done for the past couple of years. Parliament, not the PM's office should rule the country but the system of brown nosing MP's with more loyalty to their leader than their electorate corrupts any concept of democracy.
It is long past time to change the system but those in power never have any desire to do so. That is why I call them bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM

Is the guy at the song circle who doesn't like politicians John Ashe?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:18 PM

"I'm simply suggesting that the Liberals and the NDP swallow their pride...the way the PC's and Reform did some years back...and amalgamate into a single party."

Exactly what I said before.
This from the Canada Debates thread, Oct 4th

"Paul Martin did a good job of leaning to far to the left into NDP territory. That and his unending campaign of going after his retired boss has driven a lot of people away from the Liberal fold.
The real dilemma for the Liberal party is that they have to reclaim parts of their identity while asking the electorate to forget the corruption and divisions within.
Tough job.
You either have to unite with a party of "New ideas" and change your brand a couple of times (which the Conservatives did) or completely fold and start again. (which seems to be their destiny."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

Well as finance minister Paul Martin was way to the right. He cut millions in health care transfers to the provinces and the ripples are still being felt. He also robbed the U.I. funds to build his budget surplusses. I don't think that he was PM long enough to do much damage but I never regarded him as being left of centre. I always thought it a paradox that anyone wanting to be Prime Minister would re-flag his fleet of ships with foreign colours. He was neither a patriot or a leader of vision but his weak leadership opened the door for Harper. I think that the biggest problem that the left wing unification has is the number of seats held by the Bloc. That is a merger that can never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

No, Carol. Reasonable guess, though. John does hate all politicians, all right, but he also votes...because he hates the right wing reactionary ones a bit less than he hates the ones on the Left. ;-) So I'm guessing he voted Conservative. He figures the Conservatives are WAY too liberal, of course...but they're the only game in town for John as it stands at the moment. Heh!

It's another person I was referring to, but I shouldn't really say his name here. I don't think you've ever met him.


Jim Lad - Yeah. We seem to agree on that, eh? ;-)


Look, I know how this works. People acquire a natural and instinctive loyalty to one or another brand of politics, generally pretty early on in life. Chances are about 19 or 20 to 1 that they will simply see things from that angle on for the rest of their lives...and they'll think they're being totally logical and objective all the while as they do so...but they're not. They're replaying old repetitious emotional tapes, rehashing old loyalties and grudges, and they're filling in the "logic" and the "facts" afterwards to suit the emotion.

I acquired a natural loyalty to the Left early on. I have friends who think exactly the other way around...anything on the Left rings danger bells in their psyche, regardless of the circumstances, and they don't really know why. But they can come up with a million logical-sounding reasons why. Just ask them. I feel that way about anything on the Right...it rings danger bells in my psyche. I instinctively despise the Right.

The really sad part, though, is this: when it comes to all the other stuff in life, outside of politics...and I mean the day-to-day stuff that actually matters.....these friends and I find ourselves in agreement, although we can't agree on politics.

That's why I call politics the Great Divider. It's a curse upon our lives, in my opinion...because the way it's been set up with competing parties and idealogies it is based on conflict. You cannot often secure a healthy result in a society from a system that is based on conflict. A political campaign is a war without firearms, and wars are an attempt to destroy someone. Not good. Not good at all. It's a waste of our better nature.

That's why I'd like to see all political parties abolished...a seated parliament of independents with no party affiliation...and then parliament would be an assembly of equals rather than a division into the empowered and the opposition.

An assembly of equals can discuss things as equals and arrive at a sensible decision (with 2/3 assent necessary) together...NOT spend their time committing cynical character assassination upon one another, which is what our present system has devolved into.

The party system is a travesty, a lunacy, an obscenity, and I believe it will be recognized as such in some distant future era when people have adopted a far better and wiser system.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

You hit a good point with this L.H. ... "brand of politics"

Politiks has become a marketing box store for the party brands ... like everything else, the brand becomes more important the the contents.

interesting theory about all parties becoming abolished ... I like it ... along with no religions, no borders.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:25 PM

I've always been on the centre left but for the reasons I have previously stated, (regarding the Liberals) have made the switch.
I'm guessing that the day when your social status/religion dictates your party affiliation is gradually dissipating.
There are some values however that cannot be compromised.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:40 PM

A lotteried jury-system with an opt-out provision would be a good alternative to the party system. Television/polling has essentially ruined a leader-driven party process: it is all horse race all the time.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: black walnut
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:47 PM

I'm coming in late to this discussion. I'm from inner Toronto - and the big city cores cried out "Liberal!". Why? Because Harper ignores cities. Did you know that Toronto carries the TTC load on its own back? Countries around the world know that public transit has to be supported by all levels of government.

I voted Green by the way, being quite sure that my Liberal candidate would get in and beat the Tories.....so I thought I'd give Liz a pat on the back for a mighty fine showing this time around. What spunk!

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:28 PM

Oh, I can well understand why you would have abandoned the Liberals, Jim Lad. ;-) I have essentially fairly much abandoned the Liberals, the Conservatives, and even my old favorites the NDP. I don't believe in any of them anymore. I tend to vote more strategically now, since there's no one out there that I have any real confidence in (as a party, I mean). If I really like an individual I'll vote for him fairly much regardless of party...depending on the general situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Stephen Harper's Rule Ending ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:09 AM

Hey! Just found out from Bee that I know Elizabeth May's brother, sister in law and father.
Extremely resourceful family.
LH: I'd follow Martha Hall Findlay or Brian Tobin.
Other than that; I am pleased with Stephen Harper's performance and don't give much stock to the media characterisation of the man.
As for the hidden agenda.... I firmly believe that the first time he manages to get a majority government, he will see to it that poverty and corruption on Canada's Native Reserves will become no more than a footnote in this country's history pages.