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The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)

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Jeri 12 Jun 99 - 12:41 PM
Ferrara 12 Jun 99 - 05:09 PM
Jeri 12 Jun 99 - 06:20 PM
emily rain 12 Jun 99 - 08:27 PM
Jeri 12 Jun 99 - 09:04 PM
Banjer 12 Jun 99 - 09:31 PM
Jeri 12 Jun 99 - 10:00 PM
PJ 12 Jun 99 - 10:16 PM
Mark Roffe 12 Jun 99 - 10:29 PM
reggie miles 12 Jun 99 - 11:19 PM
katlaughing 13 Jun 99 - 12:10 AM
Margo 13 Jun 99 - 01:30 AM
Ferrara 13 Jun 99 - 01:47 AM
Jeri 13 Jun 99 - 09:49 AM
Alice 13 Jun 99 - 10:26 AM
Indy Lass 13 Jun 99 - 11:17 AM
Jeri 13 Jun 99 - 11:43 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 13 Jun 99 - 04:01 PM
emily rain 13 Jun 99 - 05:03 PM
Ferrara 14 Jun 99 - 09:49 AM
Fadac 14 Jun 99 - 10:54 AM
CapriUni 25 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM
GUEST 25 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM
CapriUni 25 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM
Crowhugger 26 Apr 10 - 12:42 PM
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Subject: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 12:41 PM

Continued from here: What instruments do catters play?

PJ, it was like that for me, too. The day after I got the free lesson, I tried the things he told me about. I couldn't believe what came out! I got overtones, my nose vibrated, and the volume was almost uncomfortable. It seemed too easy to make such a dramatic improvement. It was a life-changing event, and I sat here with tears in my eyes for a little while.

Some people have known how to sing for their whole lives. I think I used to know, and then forgot it somewhere down the line. I wonder if this happens a lot, or whether I'm an anomaly. People learn how to sing quietly. We live in apartments, we walk around in crowded places, and many of us are just plain afraid of being heard.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Ferrara
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 05:09 PM

One of the vocal techniques threads that we had before was called "Improved Singing." It was great. I saved it in my word processor, printed it and spent a lot of time trying some of the stuff. Can't post a link to it because the tinkertoy we call a computer around here can't do a forum search since Max's last update.

I remember the first time I found my own full voice, Jeri. I had taken a one-day group class with Jerry Epstein in vocal techniques for folksingers. Next morning when I tried a couple of songs, I felt like my voice had changed over night from a scrub pine tree to a redwood. Wonderful!

Lisa Null also gave group classes (free!) at the 1998 FWGW Getaway. Even though I wasn't one of the students, I got an awful lot out of watching and listening as she taught other people. (She'll probably do that again this year, so come check it out!)

My own experience is that nothing frees up my voice like confidence and preparation. I was *really* nervous about singing a couple of Civil War songs at the recent Washington Folk Festival. But I was scared enough that I was determined not to make an ass of myself, or to shoot myself in the foot out of nervousness. I did everything I could to practice and prepare myself, including singing at the open mike at the Reston Folk Club a couple of times to get comfortable with the effects of singing into a mike.

I practiced those songs till I had explored every nuance I could of phrasing, timing, delivery and voice quality. I tried them in every key I might possibly start them in. Then I bought a pitch pipe and tried various keys until I knew exactly where I should start each song. (I was going to sing unaccompanied, so there wouldn't be any instrument to help with the pitch.) Mind you, I was doing all this because I have had plenty of experiences of choking up and ruining a song that I normally sing pretty well, just because a lot of people are watching.

The point is, once I got up on stage and had my key and started singing, everything went on automatic pilot. I was amazed. All I had to do was open my mouth and sing. All that rehearsing and preparation and disaster control had the best possible outcome: the songs pretty much sang themselves, and my voice was at its very best.

Hope this is some help to someone. - Rita F

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 06:20 PM

One weird thing about last night was I wasn't the slightest bit nervous. I didn't even know I was going to sing, so I didn't have time to get nervous. I used to do quite a bit of public speaking in the Air Force, so when I started, those techniques kicked in automatically - looking everyone in the eye, singing to the whole room, moving naturally. I don't remember thinking about anything during the song, other than "wow, this is great!" It's likely I was so freaked out (happily) about being able to sing that I forgot to worry about forgetting lyrics or missing a note.

I've been to a singing workshop with Anne Hills, I've read discussions on singing techniques on Usenet, and I believe I read the thread you (Rita) mentioned. I don't know why I didn't understand it until a friend said virtually the same thing I'd heard many times.

The thread Rita (Ferrara) mentioned is here

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: emily rain
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 08:27 PM

i _love_ this thread! so many people tell me that they enjoy listening to me sing, and wish they had a good voice so they could sing, too. i always quote that saying from zimbabwe: if you can walk you can dance, and if you can talk you can sing! but they insist that what they really want is to sing _well_... and i insist that this too can be theirs... and they sigh and assume i don't understand.


where does this musical elitism come from? i'm glad to see that you folks all know that singing is your birthright! never stop roaring, for your sake and ours...

love, emily

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 09:04 PM

Emily, one thing I've noticed is that we did stuff when we were kids that we stopped doing as adults. I don't know why - the stuff is still fun. The artsy things are ok for kids to do on an amature, just-for-fun, don't-have-to-be-the-best basis. Somehow, we got the message as we grew up that this was wrong.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Banjer
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 09:31 PM

I think that singing as kids was having fun. We weren't aware that anyone might think us strange or if we were aware of it we just didn't care! As we grew older, we became aware of the fact that just because the feller down the street went around singing to himself he was classed as "wierd" and to be avoided. BUT, I have now reached the age where I don't give a possums ass what people think. If I want to go through the grocery store singing or humming a tune to myself, that's my business. Them as don't like it can just go do whatever it is they do. I get a lot of snide remarks at work also, from the younger set. The older ones just shake their head and smile a lot. I couldn't carry a tume in four handled wash tub, but I can sing enough to make ME happy and that's all that counts.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 10:00 PM

When I lived in Korea, I had to get used to certain differences in culture, like bowing, taking and giving money with two hands, that sort of thing. I noticed people walking down the street (or one guy on a motorbike) singing quite loudly to themselves. If you asked a Korean how a song went, they'd sing it - none of this "Oh, I really can't sing" stuff. From then on, I had a ball walking to and from work, singing my head off.

When we're kids, we don't care what people think. We become adults, and that's all that matters. Then we spend the rest of our days trying to get back to the way we were when we were kids.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: PJ
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 10:16 PM

emily-- I love your quote from Zimbabwe! The trick is, until someone proves to you that you CAN make the sound, it's impossible to believe. Before yesterday I would have believed it was impossible too.

You'll appreciate this little parlour trick she pulled during my lesson to teach me what you said ("if you can talk you can sing"):

She told me to introduce myself and say I'm here for my lesson, in a regular speaking voice. I did.

Then she said, "Now say the same thing, but pretend you're a radio announcer and say it in the exaggerated way they would say it." I did.

"See," she says, "You can get that sound into your speaking voice, you just don't know how you did it. A trained announcer is imagining lots of spaces inside their body where vibrations can be produced. They've learned how to control those vibrations to make the sound they want. You don't know yet how to control the vibrations, but you know how to mimic the effect, and you just proved that you can make the sound. Now we'll teach you to control it so you can use it when you sing."

Boy, am I hooked.


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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 10:29 PM

I notice that when I speak Spanish my voice is deeper, slower, and more definite. I've experimented with trying to isolate this personna and apply it to speaking in English and to singing. It tends to remove nervousness from my speaking, and keeps my singing tempo more constant. I don't know why this happens when I speak Spanish, as it is not my native language -- in fact, I'm not quite fluent in it.


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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: reggie miles
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 11:19 PM

In the words of a friend, your voice is a muscle, excersize it, use your power, make it stronger.

You can use it today, Reggie.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 12:10 AM

Reading this makes me feel really lucky that we had fun as kids, singing with our parents and friends. I guess because our parents played for dances and we all sang together most saturday nights, that we forgot to grow up and get embarrassed:-) We all been singing ever since i cna remember.

We sang to records when we cleaned house, in the car on trips, etc.

It has stood us in good stead. My sister bet and I had our first "gig" as "Folkfyre", today. She lives four hours away, so we were only able to get together one weekend about 3 weeks ago and last night to rehearse and we added 2 songs yesterday that we didn't know very well.

We used a tape of our first rehearsal to practise to. I had sung a concert with our brother, a classical composer & pianist, before, but never miked and never at a venue where people were walking around, eating, etc. It was at the Wyoming Culture Fest.

Anyway, we were both nervous, but we managed to get up there, both of us miked, as well as bet's baritone uke and gave them about a 45 minute show, which they seemed to've enjoyed, judging by the comments. The best part was when a little girl, who looked about 4 yrs old came up with her grandma later to tell us she really liked the songs we sang!

I am so very grateful to have always felt I had a voice. I haven't sung with my sisters in years, on a consistent basis; now it feels as though we've found "our voice" that we had when singing together as a family.

Keep it us all of you and don't worry about what others think!


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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Margo
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 01:30 AM

Bark Woof: It is no surprise to me that you find yourself speaking with a different timbre in a different langusge. Different languages are spoken in different resonating places in the head. I have noticed the same phenomenon when I speak French, German, or Italian as opposed to English.


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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Ferrara
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 01:47 AM

When I was a kid, I always sang on my way to and from school, unless I was walking with someone. It took a while to realize that sometimes people would turn and stare (as if it weren't a perfectly natural and common thing to do!) In my mind it should not have been worth a second look, because it was such a natural impulse to sing whenever one had the chance.

When I visited Italy, it felt so comfortable to be in a culture where people sang wherever they were. I fit right in. You would hear fine, strong women's voices floating out of windows as they sang while they did their housework. I took part in a procession for a local saint, San Gerardo, and the voices of some of those grey-haired Italian women were quite unbelieveable. No shyness there -- their voices were pure and strong.

Once in Naples, I was staying in a room with a balcony, overlooking a square. A street vendor was playing an Italian version of "Please Release Me, Let Me Go" or some other pop hit of the time. I walked out on the balcony, and sang along at full volume. No one even looked around! Very satisfying.

I have to admit, though, even though I'd sing on a desert island, I've always had the wish that people would actually want to hear me sing. Anybody else have that feeling? I probably underestimated my singing, but a few lessons have made a big difference, as has the effort I've put into learning to sing better. Also, we're lucky enough to be surrounded by fantastic singers here in the Washington area and you can learn so much by listening to someone like LaMarca or Judy Cook. It is definitely satisfying to realize that I like my voice now and so do quite a few other people. A gestalt completed, as what's- his-name said.... - Rita F

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 09:49 AM

There's a feeling of power you get from leading or performing a song. For a short while, everyone follows and supports you until you give up that power to the next singer. It's like one huge pat on the back.

I don't think some microcosms of US culture have the same aversion to public amateur (finally spelled it right) singing as middle class white folks. I worked at a shelter in DC one Thanksgiving, and an African-American woman sat down at the piano and started playing "Stand by Me," and everyone sang along. During military exercises in Korea we were cooped up in the hosital for long periods with nothing to do. I walked down the hall and heard a bunch of people (mixed ethnically, but instigated by an African-American man) singing '60s soul songs.

Maybe if we turned the electronic noises off long enough, we'd have to sing.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Alice
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 10:26 AM

Jeri, see the Favorite Instruments thread I refreshed.
Here is what I added to the thread on 'what do catters play', which applies to the voice.
Bravo to those learning to use the voice to its potential. Singing in English is a disadvantage because the language has so many consonant stops (s, t, sh, m, ng, etc). It is a more difficult language to get the greatest potential developed in your voice. For that reason, a good teacher of vocal technique will have you learn songs in Italian just for practice, and for technical muscle and placement development. You may never sing them in public, but using the Italian to practice opens the voice up when you use the techniques that a good teacher can show you. Learning something in French can help you develop the 'lift' of the soft palate as well as singing from the 'mask' of the face. We have had several threads on the topic of singing technique and development. This one has links to warming up and vocal health, etc. singing voice

Here is a thread from 1997 about catter's favorite instruments (my favorite is my voice).Favorite Instruments

I should have added that the open vowel sounds of Italian, French, Spanish, etc is one of the reasons those languages are easier to sing with power, clarity, ... so when singing English, you can 're-phonate' the words to consciously sing more on the vowels of the words. For example, give attention to the vowel sounds in "weather", not singing on the 'r's at the ends of words. weeaaaatheeer, not wwwweathththerrrrrrr. It's hard to describe this in writing instead of demonstrating by having you hear it sung.

alice in montana

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Indy Lass
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 11:17 AM

When I sing I feel I need an amplifier. I have a quiet voice and have been talking in a low register all my life. In highschool choir I was put in the alto section. A year later they put me in second soprano (maybe because I was singing louder?) Now I feel I have to sing higher to get the sound I want, but this is still different from my talking voice. And this seems fakey and wrong, so I'm still pretty insecure about how I'm coming across when singing although people tell me I have a very pretty voice (I'm always thinking "They're just trying not to hurt my feelings and tolerating it.") I took a few voice lessons. I just never know if I'm doing it "well enough." So this thread is very interesting to me. Thanks all for the info.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 11:43 AM

Wow - your history sounds just like mine. This is what I needed to do. It might work for you, it might not. I've already mentioned I'm not exactly an expert, so if I'm saying something wrong, I hope someone corrects me.

Sit up straight, don't lean forward, don't raise your head. Say "Hmmm," as in "My, that's interesting."
Sing the note as a vowel (I like "A") Concentrate on relaxing your throat - the only thing you should be using it for is to keep your vocal chords vibrating and staying on pitch.
Let the air and sound come out of your nose. The feel of this lower note should be the same as with higher notes. People (well, me) have a tendency to "clamp down" on lower notes when trying to sing them louder, and sing with a shouting voice.
Now, as you sing the vowel, push more air out as if you were blowing up a balloon. It's the air that makes you louder - nothing else.

I don't know if this will work for you. Like I said, I had to hear it several times in different ways to finally understand it. Don't give up - that monster voice is in there somewhere!

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 04:01 PM

It's so great to hear these stories about finding your voice! Our culture has such inhibitions about singing - I blame it on the recording industry, over-producing everything so much that we don't think we sound good because we lack a reverb button! The most important advice to date is just sing, and keep singing! It would be great to have people want to pay to hear us, but it doesn't matter- singing is so good for you, as well as being a wonderful community act. Just sing!

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: emily rain
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 05:03 PM

my voice coach taught me to sing scales and single notes on a "zzzzzz" or a "vvvvvvv" to build muscle tone. it takes a lot more strength of diaphragm to push the sound through, and if you then sing the same notes on an open vowel, your volume will have doubled!

if you do this, however, be careful not to _over_ do it. it's like any other kind of athletics; jumping in too quickly can lead to injury (hoarseness). you'll need to build over time.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Ferrara
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 09:49 AM

The electronic age has changed the making of music so much. Making (not just listening to) music used to be a major source of pleasure and entertainment for a much bigger proportion of the population.

One reason I like Civil War songs is that community singing was a really big activity back then. I try to imagine where and in what circumstances the song would have been sung. "Tenting tonight" sounds a lot different when you imagine it sung by groups of young soldiers -- Union or Confederate, both sides loved it -- sitting outside their tents at night. It was so popular that at least one officer supposedly forbade his men to sing it, because they sang so enthusiastically they were in danger of giving away their position.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Fadac
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 10:54 AM

Quick comment on some of "our" inhabitons about singing.

Do you know the definiation of a Yankee Prodistant?

That is someone who rolls, and tosses, unable to sleep, because he knows that somebody, somewhere is having. FUN! (ohmygod)

Ok, just kidding a bit. But singing is fun, so some folks had to forbid singing. (execpt in church, maybe.) And Dancing. (Somewhere a little ditty, "I don't prance and I don't dance...)

I'm glad those days are long gone, but I think that some of the old taboo's are still alive.

Frankly, life is way to short to have to put up with that sort of nonsense.

Fadac - the looking for a voice coach man.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: CapriUni
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM

Refreshing this thread, 'cause it (the singing inhibition thing) is something I've often wondered about.

I have an untrained voice, mostly (Took classes on public speaking and oral interpretation in college, and was given vocal exercises to do there, but I've never been to a voice coach). But I sing almost all the time. It's like my brain is playing background music to my life, and it "leaks" ;-).

People have occasionally commented, but it's usually along the lines of: "You're always so *cheerful*!" (If they're thinking "You're crazy!", they're too polite to say.)

I'm active in the local Neo-Pagan community, and there is lots of chanting, and drumming, and even wild, strong whooping and cheering during ritual, so it's not like folks there are afraid of making noise, exactly, but there is very little actual *singing* -- hardly any melody.

I think there's a fear of hitting a wrong note. Maybe next time I go to a gathering, I'll bring some kazzoos -- the overtones and buzzes are so rich in those things that not hitting a pitch exactly doesn't seem so harsh.

If I can get folks humming, maybe I can get them singing next....

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM


I'm active in the local Neo-Pagan community

So what sort of beliefs does that involve? Do tell, I'm in need of a laugh.

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: CapriUni
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM


"'I'm active in the local Neo-Pagan community.' So what sort of beliefs does that involve?"

Neo-Paganism is a loosely defined group of religions that have several things in common:

1) A theology that is based on ideas found in pre-Christian myths (mostly, but not necessarily, European) but re-envisioned for life in the modern world (i.e., the closest thing we would get to a blood sacrifice is going down to the Red Cross blood drive. :-))

2) A reverence for Nature, and seeing Divine revelation in the patterns of the natural world, rather than in a scripture.

3) Seeing the Divine as embodied in both Gods *and* Goddesses -- either in a truly polytheistic way (many Gods), or in the Unitariaran way of seeing the "forms and names" of the many as simply masks of the Unknowable One.

4) An aversion to proselytizing.

I hope this helps!

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Subject: RE: The Mouse that Roared (Finding Your Voice)
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 12:42 PM

Refreshing this thread...I just love reading and re-reading these accounts of "mice that roared."

I've been singing 10:1 barbershop:folk for the last 3 years and learned that a primary function of the 1 men's and 2 women's organizations here in North America is educating members toward that "wow" experience when you find your voice, usually in the context of making a chord ring (means creating overtones so that 4 voices create a 5- or even 6-note chord).

My feeling is that all singing is a good thing, if not always for the listeners certainly for the singers. For listeners it's about the ear of the beholder.

As a younger adult I recall being amazed to find I had a lower range; before that moment I'd always sung in the high, pretty range.

Some 25 years later I felt real thrill when in a workshop last year I found some real power in my voice even though I've been singing literally since I had teeth, people saying 'nice voice' and me being somewhat comfortable with an audience.

Last year I joined a vocal quartet and lately we're having some great moments in sound. Now I can't wait to find more such moments in my own voice or with others as I sing through life.


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