BS: Joe the Plumber

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:47 AM

CC: I thought it was OK for people to bring up things here and ask questions

Is Obama any better than McCain?

And if so how are you making this judgement?

Is it based on McCains honesty about being friends with Liddy or on Obama's denials of associating with Ayers?

Is it based on what Liddy's group blew up and who they killed or on what Ayers group blew up and who they killed?

whisch of these two statements is "better" than the other:

"Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests"
OR
"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Do you have your buzz on yet Bobert? You sound awful grumpy today.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:54 AM

I'm not assuming Liddy is the wrong kind of people. I'm saying that he's no better than Ayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM

Why, so you wouldn't hurt them?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

Wasn't it Al Franken who once advised folks to shoot ATF agents in the head???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

"I'm not the one who has brought up the issue of who is cozy with the wrong kind of people."


               No, but why would you assume Gee Gordon Liddy is the "wrong kind of people?" There's a real possibility that Al Franken will be elected to the Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:34 AM

Poor ol' Joe the Plumber has been kicked to the curb on his own thread and he ain't none to happy about it... Word on the street is that if ya'll don't get back to him that he's gonna pull his support for McCain and endorse Obama...

As fir the if-can't-beat-'um-join-'um theory, Sawz, no... You can't like, ahhhhh, "catch" nebtal illness from being around it... The stuff ain't contageous...

As for associations, however, I heard that John McCain hung atound commies night and day for 4 years... I recokon that makes him a commie???

(But, Bobert.... He was a POW...)

Hey, if I have it right, the argument seems to be that an association is an association is an association is....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:19 AM

I'm not the one who has brought up the issue of who is cozy with the wrong kind of people. The one asking me the questions is the one who has done that, and they have done it as though Obama is the only one who has such associations, and is therefore less acceptable than McCain for that reason.

What I have been doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of that approach, and pointing out that McCain is no better than Obama when it comes to questionable associations.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:10 AM

Do you need help understanding the question?

You seem to be trying to say that Mac gave money to Khalidi and that is more wrong than Obama's association with Khalidi and also giving him money because of the amount of money involved.

I am trying to understand the logic in your scoring system for your assesment of guilt.

So far it eludes me.

Seems you mostly base it on the amount of money that came from Mac's outfit when Mac Didn't know Khalidi or meet him or associate with him.

The Obamas are personal friends of the Khalidis, dine with them regularly have political discussions but that is not wrong because he gave less money to him than Mac did.

So a series of simple yes or no questions should reveal the logic here, if there is any logic and not just ideological biases. In that case there is no logic to be revealed, just emotional knee jerk reactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:34 PM

Tell me the point that is being made rather than expecting me to waste my time on rhetorical questions. Otherwise, the questioner is on their own out there in the kiddie end of the pool.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM

Toledo police records clerk charged with misconduct in "Joe The Plumber" info inquiry

TOLEDO BLADE STAFF

    A Toledo police records clerk has been charged with "gross misconduct" for allegedly making an improper inquiry for information regarding the man known as "Joe the Plumber," city officials said Tuesday afternoon.

    Julie McConnell, a police employee since April, 1995, requested information Oct. 16 on Samuel Wurzelbacher, who gained national attention when he asked presidential candidate Barack Obama a question. Authorities said this was done for non-law enforcement purposes and was a violation of department policy and state policy governing law regarding the use of the Law Enforcement Automated Data System database.

    A discipline hearing will be scheduled within the next 10 days to discuss the matter. Ms. McConnell is a member of AFSCME Local 7.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM

If it is Beyond your capabilities, So be it.

Maybe this one will pass your requirements:

Did McCain ever meet Khalidi or discuss anything with him?__________

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:56 PM

I can answer them. But doing so accomplishes nothing because the criteria have been narrowed down almost to Obama's street address. That is the tactic of someone who knows they haven't got a legitimate argument and they're now shooting from the hip.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM

When you can't answer questions, you are defeated.

You got exactly what you asked for but you do not reciprocate.

You can ask me the narrowest question in the world.

Hey Bobert. I heard that when you work with crazies long enough it drives you nuts. Is that true?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:27 PM

I see the person who is asking me all of those questions is admitting defeat. They are defining their criteria for the question of who associates with terrorists so narrowly, that nobody but Obama could possibly fit the definition. That's an admission of defeat if ever I saw one.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:37 PM

Paranoid?

With Boss Hogg after me all tha time I have to really watch out. I am tellin you he's real.

He stole my doors right out from under me one time.

Mr Obama, Please make him go away. ;-}

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:15 PM

Yo, Sawz...

16-17 years workin' with mental health clients and professionals and I reckon I learned a thing 'er two...

In other words: yer nuts...lol...

Okay, maybe not nuts but you could use a little tweakin' with some meds and counselin' 'cause you are paranoid and angry...

But, hey, lotta that goin' 'round...lol...even if it ain't all that funny...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:18 PM

McCain lives in Washington and sometime Arizona, an awfully longway from Chicago. Which makes those pretty silly questions, Sawzaw.

Incidentally, are you going to stick around once the election is over, seeing as you don't seem to have any interest in folk music?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:06 PM

What either of them did with or to Ayers has no reflection of them or their characters at all, give it a rest.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

Barry, thanks for the Joe email. It is excellent!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:35 PM

CC: Did you forget the questions?

Did Mac associate (the Obamas had dinner with the Khalidis on a regular basis and had private discussions) with Khalidi and Ayers?___________

Did Ayers hold a party for him to launch his political career?___________

Did Mac sit on boards with either of them?___________

Did Mac's kids go to school with Ayers Kids?___________

Then there is the logic that if it is OK for Obama to do something, it is therefor OK for Mac to do whatever it was that Obama did.

And vice versa, whatever Mac does that was wrong was also wrong if Obama does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:55 PM

Bobert is passin' out free mental evaluashins today. Didn't say what his medical degree was but I flunked.

Guess the THC content in my blood was too low.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

What's goin' on, Rigs???

Seems the closer to the elction we get the less and less informed you appear to be about who is who and what is going on... That's kinda scarey when you think that JtP is better "informed" about things than is Obama... I mean, that is not only wrong but insulting...

I expect more out of you, buddy... Yer standards have been seriously compromised (dumbed down)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

It makes sense that it would make sense to you, Rig.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM

It makes sense to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:42 PM

I held a party for MaCain but no one would come not even MaCain.
MaCain's a real asshole for not coming to his own party, ungrateful & UnAmerican, if I were a former Weatherman the news might latch onto this & maybe smear Obama for because I'm voting for hm even after hosting a MaCain party.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:37 PM

McCain funded someone he accuses of being a radical extremist, and he consorted with terrorists (G. Gordon Liddy and Oliver North).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:21 PM

"pointing fingers at Obama for something he has done himself "

I don't recall McCain criticizing Obama for giving money to Khalidi.

He is criticizing Obama for associating with Khalidi and Ayers.

Did Mac associate with Khalidi and Ayers? Did Ayers hold a party for him to launch his political career? Did Mac sit on boards with either of them? Did Mac's kids go to school with Ayers Kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:18 PM

Explain why you would think so Rig?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

And all the while, they both seemed to be better informed than Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:35 PM

Joe the P is clearly an economic ignoramus. He invents history. He has baseless opinions on foreign policy. He's obviously as well-qualified for a Cabinet position as Palin is to be Veep, If he only knew how to gut a moose....

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM

I just recieved this from a friend, it's about all those Joe's

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water for coffee. The
water is clean because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum
water-quality standards. With his first swallow, he takes his daily
pills, which are safe because some stupid commie liberal fought to
ensure that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical
plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid
medical insurance - now Joe gets it too, although he is not in the union.

He cooks breakfast- bacon and eggs - safe to eat because some girly-man
liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry and the
Democratic Congress - led by a woman - prevented the FDA from caving in
to the meat industry.

After his shower - with properly labeled soap and shampoo, thanks to the
FDA - Joe walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air is clean
because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop
industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to a subway station for his
government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in
parking and transportation fees because some Prius-loving liberal fought
for affordable public transportation.

Joe has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement,
paid holidays and vacation because socialist, lazy, liberal union
members fought and died for these working standards and the right to
unionize.

At noon, Joe makes a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's
deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless liberal
wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the
banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has a below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal
decided that Joe and the nation would be better off if he was educated
and earned more money over his lifetime...helped by his degree at a
state funded university.

Joe visits his dad at his boyhood home - driving there on a state-funded
highway. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by
Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural
loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal
stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

Joe's father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some
wine-drinking, brie-eating, French-speaking elitist made sure he could
take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

On his ride home he listens to Rush complaining that liberals are
ruining the country and only conservatives are moral and know what they
are doing. Rush doesn't mention that the Republicans have fought against
every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. And Joe
doesn't think about it - he is too busy being a proud dittohead who
agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives!
After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of
themselves, just like I have."


Have a good day Joe

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:26 PM

Intellegence??? One guy was at the top of his class at Harvard, the other almost at the very bottom at the Naval Acadmey...

Judgement??? One guy not only thought that the Iraq War was a good idea but even after every excuse for starting it was debunked still thought iot was a good idea... The other guy said it was a dumb idea right from the very beginning... Oh, incidently, the guy who thought it was just peachy to invade Iraq now talks of "victory", something that even General Petraous has said ain't gonna happen...

So the choice is simple...

(Well, Bobertz... There are alot of folks who think just the way that McCain thinks...)

So??? Does that make them intellegent or wise???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:51 PM

Just keep that bag over that head... everything will become clear in time...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:06 PM

"People that lacking in intelligence and good judgement are dangerous in the office of the presidency."


                      Knowing this, it's amazing to me that anyone would support Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

Yeah, Carol, and it is insulting... He must think the American people are absolute morons...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:32 AM

I'm not criticizing McCain for contributing a half million dollars to Khalidi.

I'm criticizing McCain for being a phony hypocritical liar for pointing fingers at Obama for something he has done himself (to a much larger extent).

I personally don't care whether or not McCain gave money to Khalidi. But I think he's showing us all what a lousy candidate he is for the presidency when he does things like this, because he ends up looking like a guy with no clothes on, wearing a bag over his head. He seems to think that if he can't see us, we can't see that he hasn't got any clothes on. We can see that he is pointing fingers at others for things he's done even more of himself, but because he doesn't know we can see these things, he thinks that means we can't very clearly see what a lying hypocrite he is. People that lacking in intelligence and good judgement are dangerous in the office of the presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:12 AM

What is this preoccupation Republicans have with plumbers? As I recall, they didn't do Nixon much good.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM

Well Well Well.

According to CC, Mac is a prejudged to be a bum because he gave $500,000 of other people's money to Khalidi and Jones-Kelly may be innocent of illegally investigating Joe for personal political reasons even though she gave $2,500 of her own personal hard earned money to Obama's campaign.

Logically that would equate to Mac being automatically found guilty of illegally investigating someone who voiced dissent to Khalidi's policies in order to defend Khalidi.

The only foil to this would be Obama is a good guy by default and Khalidi is a bad guy by default.

In that case, Obama would have had a close personal relationship with a bad guy and gave him money to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:19 AM

...or not, depending on what the Inspector General finds.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:05 AM

"Jones-Kelly also has denied any connections between the computer checks on Wurzelbacher and her support for Obama. She donated $2,500 this year to the Obama campaign.

Ohio Inspector General Thomas P. Charles is investigating whether the child-support check on Wurzelbacher was legal."

That explains it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

Ha! LOL. I got that one. Excellent, subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM

Well nobody can argue that he's not a real plumber now!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

No Show Joe? You betcha!


http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/30/1616435.aspx

Poor John McCain can't catch a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:17 PM

From HERE:

Although it might seem like Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher is everywhere these days, he wasn't at John MCain's rally this morning in the small town of Defiance, Ohio.

Except that nobody told the Republican presidential nominee that.

And so, in the midst of his speech, McCain called out to Wurzelbacher, as he often does on the campaign trail.

"Joe's with us today," McCain told an audience of about 6,000 people. "Joe where are you? Where is Joe? Is Joe with us today?" he asked.

When Joe failed to appear, an awkward silence settled over the crowd.

Then McCain, politician that he is, made lemonade out of lemons. "All right," he told the crowd. "Well, you're all Joe the Plumbers, so all of you stand up!"

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:34 PM

Oh, he was only kidding, anyway!..For Pete's sake, people, these are POLITICIANS..what did you expect?..a clear answer, and the truth???????

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM

Soros and MoveOn's contributions to Obama's campaign are miniscule compared to the financial support and the advertising that Obama has been able to generate on his own without their help.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM

"Documentation for the charge that Obama got more money from Soros?"



                   MoveOn.org

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:43 AM

The candidates and their campaigns could exert a lot of control over what those organizations did on their behalf. And if the organizations didn't cooperate, the candidates could denounce them and their efforts.

People seem to forget that the PACs and 527s arose in the first place as a way to get around the campaign finance laws. So what point is there in agreeing to take public money to finance their campaigns if they're going to be circumventing the law by relying on the PACs and 527s to do their dirty work for them? There is no point to it - it would be all just for show.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

Obama can't control what PACs do on his behalf. McCain can't control what PAC's do on his behalf.

So the deal breaker from "yes" was, "No, you can't control what the PAC's do on your behalf."

So what kind of offer was that in the first place?

An illusory offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM

The help from PACs and 527s I'm talking about is not money given to the candidates' campaigns, but money that the organizations are using themselves to promote a particular candidate. A lot of PACs and all 527s operate independently of the candidate and their campaign. Obama didn't like the idea of either candidate doing an end run around an agreement to take public money by relying on these outside organizations doing their dirty work for them.