BS: Joe the Plumber

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

Speaking of which, when I was counseling more actively, very rarely was financial issues, not an issue, within the family, and often a topic of marital discord. Here a couple would be facing a personal crisis in their home, and lives, so they go to a marriage and family counselor, who was going to stick them with a bill, that they could not afford, and string them out for months, with little or no positive results. At least this is the way it is, within the profession.

Myself, I got into it for other, personal reasons, and my 'problem' is that I really DID care about these people, and their families. Cared so much, that the last person who ever gave me payment, was in 1989. I would just help, because I knew how to identify the problem, and worked avidly to solve it, instead of captitali$ing on it. When I heard of a family I thought I could help, I did so for free.

To me, it is shameful, that within the medical community, which is supposed to be saving lives, that it has been reduced to 'saving lives, keeping them alive so you can keep getting their payments'. ABSOLUTELY A SHAMEFUL DISGRACE!!

Fortunately, I've been a musician/writer/author/composer/sound engineer most of my life, as well. ...Helps relieve the stress, of knowing families are out their, in painful situations, and perhaps something I put together can detour some from personal disaster.

BTW, We just participated in a charity benefit, to raise money, food, clothes and transportation for those in need, which was a huge, better than expected success. I'd much prefer this, than making it a mandatory 'spread the wealth' nonsense.

Another aside, According to statistics, Bush' tax rebates, to stimulate the economy.....more than half, went to porno!!! Unfucking believable!..Oh well, share the wealth!?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM

".....more than half, went to porno!!! Unfucking believable!"

Source, please. Some documentation to back up that claim?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Gladly..hold on

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:55 PM

well here's one..got more hold on


http://www.itnews.com.au/News/79785,us-rebate-cheques-spent-on-porn.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

Another...but I'm looking for 'the big one'..its there..it blew me away

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/02/bush-porn/

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

Remember...McCain's definition of "Middle Class" is someone making less than $5,000,000. J the P is obviously a typical middle class stiff. Typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:33 PM

Interestion, GfS. But I just did a little research of my own.

This seems to come from "an independent market-research firm, AIMRCo (Adult Internet Market Research Company)," that makes the claim that ". . . many websites focused on adult or erotic material have experienced an upswing in sales in the recent weeks since checks have appeared in millions of Americans' mailboxes across the country . . . Jillian Fox of LSGmodels.com (nsfw) said that in a survey to its members, 'thirty two percent of respondents referenced the recent stimulus package as part of their decision to either become a new member, or renew an existing membership.'"

The editor of a business journal that, among other things, does research into the economics of the "adult entertainment" industry, makes the following observation:   "The strangest part of all of this is that I do not know a single adult internet professional who has heard of the Adult Internet Market Research Company, nor do I know any adult webmasters who've experienced what this company claims."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:42 PM

And even if the research is dodgy, which it rather sounds as if it is, there's nothing in that story about "more than half".

An updated version of "if you give them a bathtub they use it to keep coal in"...?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:46 PM

And, of course, this makes the leap of logic that the two items are related.   Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (a fallacy without further evidence).   Q.E.D.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM

I first heard it on CNN, and Fox, I think..just dig around, it's there

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:12 PM

Well, Well, Well. So Mr. Richard Bridge found the chink in my armor by working with a "runny Nose and "
Twisting my Employees" arms to do so too." Glad you got it all figured out, buddy. First of all I NEVER ask my employees to work if they are sick. Never, got it? never. Do they come in when they are not feeling well? yes! they do. Regularly. Do I work likewise? YES!!! I DO! It is what drives the economic bus! I am in a SERVICE business and my patients relty on me to be there for them! End of story. Do I contaminate them with unnecessary exposure? NO! I practice barrier techniques. I Wash my hands, I wear gloves and a mask. Is it feasable that someone could acquire a virus or bacteria from exposure in my office? Probably! at the front desk when they are checking out. GIVE ME A BREAK!   w

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:16 PM

As I started to say, every human can pass bacteria and virus to anyone during normal daily interaction in the marketplace. I am sorry your wife acquired an infexction from a healthcare facility but it cvould have just as easily been a store, resturant or bakery. If that is the best anyone can do to criticise me for how I go through life in my work, I think you are reaching pretty low for criticism. Does the patient have any obligation to not pass disease to me? SOrry, pretty lame premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:16 PM

Any relation to Joe the Grinder?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM

Ok, all those people who think those of us who don't have medical insurance can get our medical needs met through the generosity of the medical profession - tell me how I'm going to get a doctor and hospital to provide for me the medical procedure that I need to get a large lipoma removed from behind one of my knees, that is affecting my mobility and making it painful to either sit or stand, and is continuing to grow. Just answer me that.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:44 PM

Our tax rebate when to pay taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:44 PM

*went to pay taxes

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:00 AM

"going to offer Joe the UnPlumber a cabinet position"

What, a plumb job?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:48 AM

CarolC, Explain your problem, and situation, and ask. Then ask if he knows anyone who can help you..talk to the doctor himself. Ask if he knows ANYONE who can help you...and be sincere! Many times, if he can't help you directly, he can refer you. Sometimes , depending what state you live in, there are places to get help....I can help you though it, if I'm familiar with that state's laws. Sometimes friends can direct you.
Good luck with it.
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

Sorry, but that doesn't work at the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:45 AM

It also doesn't address all of the many other health issues I need medical attention for, and can't afford.

Charity is not a realistic way of addressing the matter of getting adequate health care to those who need it.

I find it ironic that people tell us on the one hand, we shouldn't expect a hand out, and then in the next breath they tell us that we should rely on charity for our health care needs.

I don't want a handout, and I don't want charity. I want my tax dollars to be put into a pool that will be used to buy group insurance that everyone can afford.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:27 AM

A lipoma probably wouldn't require hospitalization. It could probably be removed with some local anesthesia and can probably be performed in a doctor's office unless it is something much different than most lipomas. Does your health department not have a medical access clinic where doctors perform procedures for no or reduced fees? WOrth a check.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM

"I find it ironic that people tell us on the one hand, we shouldn't expect a hand out, and then in the next breath they tell us that we should rely on charity for our health care needs."


               Yes, that's always bothered me, too. McCain makes a good point when he says the cost of healthcare is too high, but Obama is right, I think, when he says it should be universal.
               I wonder if there's any way in the world to get something through the US Congress that would work for real people.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:27 AM

I used the lipoma as one example. But as I said before, even if I could get that one thing fixed, it doesn't address the fairly large number of things that go wrong with a middle age body. There's the hip (different leg) that constantly feels like it's being dislocated and is in almost constant pain. And the inflammation in most of my other joints that causes me to suspect that I am developing rheumatoid arthritis, and the two little lumps, one on my shoulder, and one on my leg, just under the skin, that don't feel like lipomas. And the chest pains that show up from time to time. And then there's the annual checkups I should be getting that I'm not - pap smears, mammograms, heart health, bone density, etc.

It's not such a simple thing to tell people to go begging for their health care. And it's penny wise and pound foolish to have such a policy.

All of the other developed nations have found that when everyone has access to health care, everyone pays less for their health care, and everyone is healthier.

Our system (more accurately, a lack of a system) costs us more than the systems in all of the other developed countries, and it is much less effective in delivering care. That's just stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:06 AM

Our system simply attracts the best and brightest to become our physicians, and if healthcare becomes socialised, the lack of incentive and general dilution of the applicant pool to medical schools will create a mediocrity in healthcare much like I have personally witnessed in Canada and the UK. I don't deny that we should have a plan to help the hard working folks that do not qualify for medicaid, but a universal plan is simply not realistic in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM

Obama's plan doesn't socialize medicine. It socializes insurance. There's a big difference. The doctors won't even notice the difference, except that they won't have to fight with the insurance companies any more to get approval for the procedures their patients need. And, they'll have a lot more patients, because there will be more people who have access to health care (almost fifty million of them).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Someone (I forget who) asked:

And second, it's not as if he's going to send you a check for $5,000. You just get a $5,000 credit on your income tax. In short, if you buy health insurance, you can deduct up to $5,000.

And others echoed the thought.

You're confusing "credit" and "deduct", which are not the same. A credit is worth a lot more than a deduction. A deduction merely reduces the amount on which the tax is figured, at whatever rate applies. A credit is essentially giving you money to pay the resulting tax bill.

In effect, assuming your top tax bracket is 10%, a dollar of tax credit is worth as much as $10 of deductions.

While I'm not for McCain or his health proposal, it's only fair to be sure to understand what it really is.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:21 AM

Carol,
Prices will be regulated far more than they are now and doctors' incomes as well as hospitals' will drop. In the UK, if you have the money you can use a private doctor and the hospital of your choice. If you don't you take what you get.
It is nice to think that all doctors are dedicated. The truth is that not all are competent.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:33 AM

I haven't seen anything in Obama's plan that calls for price controls on health care. I've seen a lot of discussion of ways of reducing costs through increased efficiency, though.

By the way, I'm married to a Canadian, and anyone would be hard pressed to persuade either him or his family that the quality of care people get in Canada is any less good than the care they get here. And he's had the best insurance money can buy in this country, so he knows what is considered good here.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM

And by the way, under Obama's plan, anyone who has insurance now that they want to keep will be able to do so. The only thing that will be different is that there will be some insurance plans available to people like me who aren't a part of an employer based insurance pool. The insurance pool in our case will be a government based insurance pool. It's essentially the same thing as employer based insurance but the pool will be those of us who will be opting into the government based plan.

Under McCain's plan, a huge number of people who currently have insurance through their employer will lose it. And those who don't lose it will be paying taxes on any money their employers pay for their insurance coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:45 AM

Another by the way...

McCain's plan does call for actually reducing the fees that doctors and dentists charge. But he is saying that those price reductions will be the result of competition in the market. So any medical or dental health professionals who think they'll be better off under McCain's plan (assuming it does what he says it will), could be in for a surprise.

Personally, I don't think McCain's plan will accomplish anything except cause a lot of people to lose their insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM

Why on earth must universal health care tend to produce "lack of incentive and general dilution of the applicant pool to medical schools"?

The National Health Service isn't perfect, and there are some doctors who aren't up to scratch and so forth, but I have absolutely no doubt that that is true under the American system. And there is no evidence I have ever seen which demonstrates that the quality of applicants to medical schools here is any lower than in America.

After all, we don't have a universal "socialised" legal system, and that doesn't mean there aren't some pretty incompetent lawyers about. As is being demonstrated daily, there some criminally incompetent bankers.

"Going private" doesn't in any way ensure that standards are high. The assumption that somehow "the free market" ensures high standards just does not stand up in practice. If we want to ensure high standards across the board we have to find other ways to achieve that, whatever system we adopt for paying for doctors, lawyers, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:05 AM

Ain't that the truth. I've had plenty of horrendously bad doctors (and dentists) here in the US, and a small few good ones, and also plenty of mediocre ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

ANd anyone who feels that the present crop of doctors represent "the best and brightest" isn't seeing the crowd of doctors I'm seeing. Most perseverant,most motivated, greediest---maybe. Better than what's out in England or Canada--I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM

The US spends more of a percentage of its GNP on health care than any developed nation yet ranks:

17th in life expectancy
28th in infant mortality

Somethin' seriously wrong with our system...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM

Well, an insanely large percentage of the US healthcare dollar goes to non-medical expenses. The profit of the insurance company is part of the problem, but only a relatively small part.

The ridiculous amount of paperwork required when every different provider has a different set of rules, and requires a different set of forms to be filled out, has created an entire sub-industry, and a nationwide collection of associate-degree-level educational programs: "medical coding."

An abrupt changeover to a truly fair and efficient delivery system for healthcare ~ which no one in real-life politics is proposing ~ would eliminate thousands upon thousands of these "make-work" jobs and create widespread unemployment.

Which would be OK. even more than OK, if opportunities were available to put those same pople to work at more productive pursuits, like alternative energy technologies. But none of this can happen overnight, not after decades and decades of concerted effort to prop up the status quo, so that our esteemed insurance giants, oil companies, etc., etc., etc., can stay dumb and get fat rather than scramble to find new ways of doing business.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM

After all, we don't have a universal "socialised" legal system, and that doesn't mean there aren't some pretty incompetent lawyers about. As is being demonstrated daily, there some criminally incompetent bankers.

McGrath, You just described Washington!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM

Oh tell me we are not going after Cathy the Coder now. How is it a makework job? Right now, in the present "system" of chaos, it is very necessary work..trust me..it will put a hospital in very serious trouble if they can't keep up with the coding and billing. Revenues and therefore jobs will be lost. Don't ask me how I know. I am sure there are more efficient ways of doing things...Ross Perot could maybe tell us since that is how he made some of his money.

There needs to be great reform of medical care. I would start by assuming there is going to be a dual private and public system de facto for a while and start right now getting new trainees in the system, with free scholarships etc. if they work in the public or call it "new" system. Start right now funding public health clinics and nurses stationed in churches and community centers. Try to make the paperwork more efficient. Try to get the public to behave in healthy ways, especially when it comes to antisocial behavior such as drugs. Lots of things can be done, hopefully soon. But it is not Cathy's fault...no one said it was I know..just wanted to head this one off. I hope she is respected because one works in my office. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM

Joe the Plumber, Troopergate, Ayres, Palin's mannerisms...isn't their anything more important going on in this elections, than these distractions?

I know the are all subjects that came up(I've even commented on some of them), but don't you all think there are more critical issues that need far more scrutiny than these??

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:46 AM

Here's one to consider...

The number one cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical bills, even among those who have health insurance. But because of the new bankruptcy laws, it's now much harder for people to file for bankruptcy. Most people now end up in chapter 13, which doesn't help them get out from under their debt. So people like that end up defaulting on their debt, including their mortgages.

What this means is that our "system" for delivering health care is so inefficient that it and our counterproductive bankruptcy laws have helped to fuel our economic meltdown because people who can't pay their medical bills (or the credit cards they used to pay their medical bills), and who are not able to keep their homes through bankruptcy proceedings, end up walking away from their mortgages, or their homes are foreclosed on. And that doesn't just effect them. It effects the whole economy, as we can now see.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:56 AM

Alright, good point. The one really scary prospect is, putting the Government in control of virtually anything else. Their track record of 'managing anything is a sham!!..Too much corruption!
Carol, Have you had any success in trying to locate a doctor, to help you?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM

It is possible for us to hold our government to a higher standard instead of trashing it like we're doing now. We will get much better results if we do it that way than with the way we're doing things now.

I haven't even bothered to look for a doctor. My experience of doctors is that they like to get paid. I've never met one who was inclined to give away his or her services for free. Our second to last doctor, when we still had insurance, dropped all of his patients who had insurance, even, because the insurance companies weren't even paying him enough. Now he just does things people with a lot of disposable income are willing to pay cash for, like botox treatments and things like that.

Seems to me if doctors are so greedy that they aren't willing to accept a universal health care system (like what Kucinich supports) and get paid only a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year, they're not the sort of people who would be willing to take care of everyone in the country who hasn't got any insurance (almost fifty million) for free.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:53 AM

There seem to be some weird fantasies inthe Sates about universal health services hurting doctors. It just doesn't work that way. It would probably be as hard to find doctors in Britain who'd want the American system as it would be to find patients who felt that way.
..............................
Perhaps it's time Bob the Builder started getting some of the same attention as Joe the Plumber.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:33 AM

Bob the Builder!
Can we fix it?
Bob the Builder!
Yes we can!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:41 AM

Yer right, GfS...

Apparently the McCain camp has all but surrendered on talking about the "important stuff" and now it's this bogus "Joe the Plumber" that McCain has elevated to being the centerpiece of his campaign...

Fact is stranger than fiction...

BTW, the Dems don't seem too interested in Troopergate or Sarah Plain's mannerisms or you'd be seeing commercials about them...

Maybe that's why JtP got a promotion... The3 Repubs tried their level best to get the Dems to bite on Troopergate so they could do their "righteous indignation" thing but the Dems didn't bite... Maybe that is why McCain is so pissed off these days... He keeps thinking that he can trap Obama into saying something, you know, mean about him or his VP... Ain't worked...

I find it intweresting that Srah Palin is completely off limits... I mean, I understand that the Dems wouldn't want a male (ncluding Hillary..lol...) to put a butt whup on her but isn't there some lady Dem out there who could point out the fact that Ms. Sarah is nothin' but a loud mouthed moron??? Purdy??? Yeah... But fumber than a box of creek rocks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

And you guys accuse Republicans of character assassination.

How many bombings did Joe proudly plan?

Did he say "The sky was blue. The birds were singing. And the bastards were finally going to get what was coming to them."?

Did he say "God Damn America"?

Nope, You guys admire elite rich bombers and God Damners while condemning a hard working turd chaser trying to get ahead instead of pursuing government handouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

Okay, Sawz...

How many bombs has Obama planed???

Fact: None

How many times has Obama said "God Damn America"???

Fact: None

Who here in Mudville says they admire with what Ayers did of what Rev. Wright said???

Fact: None, although I do understand the context of what Rev. Wright said...

You are so confused that you no longer, if you ever, capable of mounting one serious.sane argument... You should be ashamed of the slime you thorw with abosolutely no regard for the truth... I hope that Obam wins and that you are so pissed off that you leave the country... America has enough problems and losing yer delussional drybaby butt wouldn't hurt the country one bit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

How many bombs has McCain dropped?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

Not sure; had he not been shot down, he certainly would have dropped more bombs than he did. That was his everyday job back then, on a carrier off the coast of Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

"Oh tell me we are not going after Cathy the Coder now."

Jeez, mg, do you really feel that everyone is out to get working people? Is is so hard for you to realize that a person whose entire life has been lived in strained economic circumstances might be able to have an objective thought about the instrinsic value of a particular line of work?

I've had to earn my living, at times, by grinding away at tasks whose ultimate purpose was either against my pronicples, or simply pointless or impossible to discern. I understand only too well that this kind of situation can't be helped, but I don't think that sympathy for the working individual has to translate into blind acceptance of the job required of him/her by the corporation supplying the paycheck.

Recognizing that the huge amount of money and human energy going into efforts to create and manage redundant medical paperwork is NOT "going after" the individuals who find themselves in that line of work. Hell, I know that, when it comes to the job market, most people are only able to take whatever they can get.

Instead of getting all defensive on behalf of your friend Cathy, for whom I have every bit as much sympathy as you do, might it possible for you to give a moment's thought to how tragic it is that some of us have no choice but to spend our waking hours serving the needs of a system that may give us a paycheck with one hand, but picks our pocket and steals our dignity with the other hand?

I made a serious omission in that prior post about the horrendous waste and counterproductiveness of the current insurance-company-based health-payment system. Besides the unneccesary corporate profits, and besides the basic wastefulness of multiplying paperwork, there is the undeniable fact that insurance companies invest way too much of their income and of their human capital in the denial of claims filed by people who have been paying their premiums! Those are the folks we need to be crying for!

Now, if you come back boo-hooing to me about Al the Adjuster, who only denies medical care to dying children because The Boss gives him no chociue and he has to feed his family, well then, I just give up...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM

No problem. i will start another thread called Cathy the Coder and we can deliberate there. I am an omniest, as I said before. I am for everyone and all sides of every question. mg