BS: Joe the Plumber

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

He was making himself into a false hypothetical Very possibly so, but so what? He wasn't on a witness stand on oath, he wasn't a journalist with a duty to tell the truth, or a politician with a similar duty (not always observed in either case, and rightly denounced when this turns out to be the case).

Why he may have told a few porkies is his own business. Maybe he was genuinely confused - not everyone keeps accurate figures about their income in their head. I never have more than a vague notion of my financial status, I rely on my wife to know that stuff, and she does.

More likely perhaps he was dreaming about what he'd like to do, or hoped he might be able to do in a few years. Or maybe he was just trying to make himself sound a bit more successful than he actually was, sort of vanity. Doesn't everyone do that on occasion? Nothing criminal or shameful in that.

Or perhaps he was indeed "making himself into a false hypothetical in order to discomfit Obama" - but there's no reason why Obama should have been "discomfited", and he clearly wasn't.

There are no doubt people in the situation Joe described - what difference does it make whether he was one of them or not so far as asking Obama the question? It might even be easier for Obama to answer the question in the form it was given than it would have been if it had been asked as a open hypothetical. Clearly he had no difficulty with it, anyway.

Sniping at this bloke is just a distraction, and it plays into the hands of the one person in all this who does deserve to be criticised, McCain; and it serves to let him off the hook.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM

Obama never sneered at Joe, anyway. He was perfectly respectful of him, and said that even if Joe didn't vote for him, he would still be working on Joe's behalf. So that sneer comment is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM

He approached Obama. Obama did not approach him. In fact, it took some effort for him to get close enough to Obama to ask his question.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that if this guy had discussed the particulars of the business with his boss to the extent that he was making it look like he did (ie: an agreement that he was going to buy the business), the subject of gross and net would not have come up. Even if Joe himself hadn't brought it up, the owner of the business would have. And I also don't believe that Joe himself wouldn't have wanted to know how much the business made after expenses. Since Joe was saying that Obama's tax plan was going to hurt him after he bought that business, he knew that he was talking about profits after expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

like a typical elitist. As in Cindy McCain who wore an outfit worth $300,00 to the RNC...but her husband is for the "little folks"...the ones who are hurting because of the economy, right? Like they can relate to us! Not! Oh, and forget "hockey mom" Sarah. How many hockey moms do you know who spend $150,000 at Saks Fifth Avenue and Neiman Marcus? She even spent $92.00 on a baby outfit! Elitist enough for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM

"It's kind of difficult to believe that someone who doesn't know the difference between gross and net, is working on buying a business that either grosses or nets more than $250,000."


             If Joe was looking at getting into the publishing business or opening a law office, if would be hard to believe he wouldn't know the difference between "gross" and "net" profit. But I work with blue collar construction people on a daily basis, and it wouldn't surprise me.
            Further, it wouldn't take a lot of business for a plumbing contractor to gross $250,000. Plumbing parts and fictures are really expensive, and if he wanted to do commercial buildings, he could gross that much on one job. Coming up with a profit at the end of it all is the hard part--almost immpossible in the current business climate.

            He was in his front yard tossing a football back and forth with his son when Obama's entourage came by his house. There's no way to make the case that he was a McCain plant.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM

Joe the Plumber is a name that John McCain cooked up. They guy's name isn't "Joe the Plumber". Joe the Plumber is propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:15 PM

Riginslinger alleged:

'"Joe" misrepresented himself to Obama--and the country.'

                   No he didn't. The news media tried to make it sound like something it wasn't, but Joe was pretty straight forward.

                     I think he's confused about the difference between gross and net profit, but he was just asking questions of Obama.

Think again, Riginslinger. He first represented that he was "preparing to buy" a plumbing business making a certain amount of money. Forget "gross" or "net"; it's false either way.

Then he upped the ante: He said he was buying (currently, by his words), such a business.

That last is clearly false, and the first one can only be saved from clear falsity by an extreme stretch of the word "preparing".

It's come out since, from the business's owner, that when he was hired there was some discussion that he might at some point be able to buy the business. Given his $40,000 income and his tax debt, "preparing" sounds to me like prevarication, and since good ole Joe has subsequently admitted that there is no current ability or likelihood or arrangement to buy the business, and since the owner denies such an arrangement, the second statement is an outright lie.

Now those misrepresentations are so blatant that they cannot even be glossed as slips of the tongue or inadvertent misstatements. He was making himself into a false hypothetical in order to discomfit Obama.

He deserves what he gets in public obloquy.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:59 AM

To say Joe the Plumber is fictional is propaganda.

Obama's tax policy is like jello. He changes it at will while arrogantly sneering at Joe like a typical elitist.

"A plumber.. is the guy he's fighting for" Evidently Obama thinks he is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:38 AM

It's kind of difficult to believe that someone who doesn't know the difference between gross and net, is working on buying a business that either grosses or nets more than $250,000. Sorry, that one doesn't pass the smell test. Hell, I suck at business, but even I know the difference.

I was listening to this disscussion about propaganda last night, and McCain's use of the fictional character he invented and named, "Joe the Plumber", is a classic form of propaganda. If McCain's agenda wasn't counter to the best interests of the majority of people whose votes he is trying to get, he wouldn't need to invent fictional characters like Joe the Plumber, and "Sarah the Reformer" (and John the Maverick). If his agenda wasn't contrary to the best interests of the majority of voters, he would be able to just run on his platform without the propaganda.

It's pretty amusing to see anyone compare Obama's positions to nailing jello on the wall, seeing as how McCain's positions change almost daily. That's another reason McCain has to use propaganda. He can't run on his platform, because it's constantly changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

'"Joe" misrepresented himself to Obama--and the country.'



                   No he didn't. The news media tried to make it sound like something it wasn't, but Joe was pretty straight forward.


                     I think he's confused about the difference between gross and net profit, but he was just asking questions of Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

The Republicans are jumping on Obama's mortgage-credit proposal because they're worried that the MORTGAGEES slated to get a benefit MIGHT NOT BE WORKING!?!?!

Gimme a freakin' break. The chronically unemployed underclass that taxpayers are understandably reluctant to support does NOT include homeowners!

It's true, of course, that some home-owning citizens, in these hard times, might very well be currently and (hopefullly) temporarily unemployed, but they would never have been extended a mortgage loan ~ not even by the most predatory sub-prime lender ~ if they were not working and and earning some kind of income at the time.

People with mortgages, even those in danger of forclosure in the current crisis, are, by definition, WORKING AMERICANS!

(...which is why it should be no surprise that the GOP wants to denigrate them and deny them financial relief...)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM

Whatever it takes:

Obama Tweaks Tax Plan to Rebut McCain

ABC News

Facing criticism from John McCain that his tax plan constitutes "welfare," Barack Obama recently added a work requirement to one of his proposals.

"They started saying this was welfare," said Obama adviser Austan Goolsbee. "So, just so they would absolutely not be able to say that, we decided that for the last two percent we'll simply add a work requirement."

Goolsbee discussed the change to Obama's universal mortgage credit while debating McCain adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin at the Council on Foreign Relations on Tuesday.

The purpose of Obama's 10 percent universal mortgage credit is to aid taxpayers who do not itemize when filing taxes. The Obama campaign estimates that it would provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.

Goolsbee referred to the number of non-working Americans who would benefit from the original understanding of Obama's plan as an insignificant "sliver" when compared to the much larger number of working Americans who would benefit from Obama's plan.

Although the number of non-working beneficiaries would have been just a "sliver" under the original understanding of Obama's plan, Goolsbee said the Democratic nominee's economic team decided to add a work requirement to it in order to block McCain from being able to characterize any aspect of his plan as "welfare."

"When did this change? I'm just curious," an incredulous Holtz-Eakin asked Goolsbee.

"About two weeks ago," replied Goolsbee, adding that when the proposal was announced in September 2007, 98 percent of its benefits went to workers.

The work requirement on Obama's universal mortgage credit was never announced publicly, prompting Holtz-Eakin to suggest that it was just made up for purposes of the CFR debate.

"I think they just made it up," Holtz-Eakin told ABC News. "They will say anything in the moment. This is like trying to pin Jello to the wall."

During a Tuesday conference call with reporters, Holtz-Eakin mocked Goolsbee's claim that Obama could have changed his plan two weeks ago in response to McCain attacks that did not start until after Obama met with Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher nine days ago.

"What we saw today was just another example of the Obama campaign being willing to say potentially anything in order to avoid the tough questions of the moment," said Holtz-Eakin............

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

JtP, Dougie, is nothing more than an opportunist... He couldn't care less about the election... He's just out there to get as much outta his 15 minutes of fame as he can...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:29 AM

I>listen to Limbaugh regularly, do you

No - that's why I said "I suspect", on the basis of what I have read about him, and from clips on YouTube.

Why should anything be done about Joe the Plumber?

He asked a reasonable question about an aspect of Obama's plans, and received a reasonable and respectful answer. He was a bit inaccurate in his account of his own circumstances, implying that the hypothetical case he was talking about was one that actually applied to himself, but that's not a big deal. He's not a politician or a journalist.

Unfortunately McCain picked up on it and rather shot his mouth off about it, evidently without having anyone check the facts - as a result of that Joe has found himself in the middle of a media feeding frenzy, which might injure him (or might conceivably benefit him)

If maybe Joe is now in trouble for unpaid tax or for doing work for which he wasn't qualified, that's a consequence of his only massaging of the facts, but more especially of McCain's directing attention to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:18 PM

Spreading the 'wealth' is not a hard concept to understand actually, a no brainer.. You do it by trade(business and exchange) the word 'economy' is the RATE of the exchange of money. To hurt the 'economy', is to slow the rate of exchange. When money is changing hands quickly is called a good economy. To create money out of thin air, and increase the money supply, may step up the exchange of money..but the value of what that money is worth less than it was..therefore, more money is needed to cover the cost of labor or services exchanged for.....Just so we get our terms right

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:02 PM

Who knows, Doug, if you took your nose out of the Arizona Republic--and read something worthwhile--like the WSJ reporting--even you might start to make sense.

Perhaps not, but it might be worth a try.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:58 PM

No need. He's hanged himself, with a series of blatantly false statements--starting with: "I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes $250, 000 to 280,000 a year".

Let's have just one iota of evidence that idea has any plausibility--from somebody who in 2004 made about $40,000/yr.--and still owes about $1,200 to Ohio.


And as I noted, from the WSJ earlier in the thread, the plumbing business in question would have to clear about $5 million/ yr. to be negatively affected by Obama's tax plan. And how much did it make last year--about $100,000?   Whatever it was, it wasn't exactly $5 million.

"I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year". Obama took the most charitable interpretation--that Joe meant $250,000 clear profit per year.
But the business only had revenue of $250,000 to $280,000--if that.
And therefore, as Obama said, would be helped, not hurt, by his tax plans.

"Joe" misrepresented himself to Obama--and the country.

And now he's been made an icon---to those who can't or won't think or do any research.

i.e. the usual suspects---amazingly enough, yet again supporters of GWB--and McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:30 PM

McGrath: listen to Limbaugh regularly, do you?

What would you peace loving folks recommend be done to Joe the Plumber?
Hang him?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:59 PM

So far as the economy is concerned the important thing is to ensure that the money is spent in a way that helps ensure that that the economy revives.

That could be achieved in a number of ways - one is that the government could take it, and pay it out directly, or it could achieve the same result through adjusting taxes. Or it could be done by people with money acting in ways that had the effect of distributing the money, maybe through philanthropy, maybe be by conducting their business in a different way.

And there could be other ways of achieving a similar result.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't important differences between all those methods. There are, and some are preferable to others. But in all cases the outcome would be that the money was be spread out, with the consequence that it would be more usefully applied.

In a way this is analogous to the assumption that society is best served by having power distributed rather than concentrated. That was considered to be a totally unacceptable idea until reletively recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: curmudgeon
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:07 PM

From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:29 PM

Mc Grath,. the mechanism for spreading it is absolutely the issue!   There is no other issue! I normally don't disagree with you but this time, I have to say that there is no other issue in the picture than HOW the wealth is to be distributed!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

DougR doesn't think. Let him listen to Limbaugh, Hannity, and some Fox tomorrow, and he'll get back to you. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM

So which bit of that does Doug think Obama would wish to retract?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

Just so we are really clear on exactly what was said by Obama and JtP (this comes from a Militray Forum, not exactly a "liberal" media outlet):

Outside Toledo, Ohio, on Sunday, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was approached by plumber Joe Wurzelbacher, a big, bald man with a goatee who asked Obama if he believes in the American dream.

"I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes 250 to 280 thousand dollars a year," Wurzelbacher said. "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?"

Obama said, "First off, you would get a 50% tax credit so you'd get a tax cut for your healthcare costs….. if your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you'd go from 36 to 39%, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. And the reason why we're doing that is because 95% of small businesses make less than 250. So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut. And so what we're doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than 250 that that marginal amount above 250 – they're gonna be taxed at a 39 instead of a 36% rate."

Responded Wurzelbacher, "the reason I ask you about the American dream, I mean I've worked hard. I'm a plumber. I work 10-12 hours a day and I'm buying this company and I'm going to continue working that way. I'm getting taxed more and more while fulfilling the American dream."

"Well," said Obama, "here's a way of thinking about it. How long have been a plumber?"

Wurzelbacher said 15 years.

Obama says, "Over the last 15 years, when you weren't making 250, you would have been given a tax cut from me, so you'd actually have more money, which means you would have saved more, which means you would have gotten to the point where you could build your small business quicker than under the current tax code. So there are two ways of looking at it – I mean one way of looking at it is, now that you've become more successful through hard work – you don't want to be taxed as much."

"Exactly," Wurzelbacher said.

Obama continued, "But another way of looking at it is 95% of folks who are making less than 250, they may be working hard too, but they're being taxed at a higher rate than they would be under mine. So what I'm doing is, put yourself back 10 years ago when you were only making whatever, 60 or 70. Under my tax plan you would be keeping more of your paycheck, you'd be paying lower taxes, which means you would have saved…Now look, nobody likes high taxes."

"No," said Wurzelbacher.

"Of course not," said Obama. "But what's happened is that we end up – we've cut taxes a lot for folks like me who make a lot more than 250. We haven't given a break to folks who make less, and as a consequence, the average wage and income for ordinary folks, the vast majority of Americans, has actually gone down over the last eight years. So all I want to do is – I've got a tax cut. The only thing that changes, is I'm gonna cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in need and for the 5% of the folks who are doing very well - even though they've been working hard and I appreciate that – I just want to make sure they're paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other tax cuts. Now, I respect the disagreement. I just want you to be clear – it's not that I want to punish your success – I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you – that they've got a chance at success too."

Wurzelbacher said it seemed as though Obama might support a flat tax.

Obama says, "you know, I would be open to it except here's the problem with a flat tax is that if you actually put a flat tax together, in order for it to work and replace all the revenue that we've got, you'd probably end up having to make it like about a 40% sales tax. I mean that's the value added, making it up. Now some people say 23 or 25, but in truth when you add up all the revenue that would need to be raised, you'd have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on. And I do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also been lucky, I don't mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress that I just met over there who's things are slow and she can barely make the rent."

Obama said, "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody. If you've got a plumbing business, you're gonna be better off if you're gonna be better off if you've got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody's so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

"But listen," Obama said, shaking Wurzelbacher's hand, "I respect what you do and I respect your question, and even if I don't get your vote, I'm still gonna be working hard on your behalf, because small businesses are what creates jobs in this country and I want to encourage it."

"Guys I gotta get out of here and go prepare for the debate," Obama said, "but that was pretty good practice right there."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:16 PM

You can spread some of yours over to me any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:23 PM

The important thing is to spread it. The mechanism for doing that is secondary.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

I suspect Sir Francis' idea of spreading the wealth referred to commerce more than taxation. I think spreading the wealth through the means of commerce is a wonderful idea and it is a real stimulis to the economy. Spreading the wealth by increasing taxes to distrubute to others is counterproductive to the economy in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:36 PM

As for the hoohah about Obama's comment in that converstiin with Joe about how "spreading the wealth" is good for business, that's hardly a new notion, or a particularly left-wing one. It's the kind of thing that many people across the whole political spectrum have said, because in economic terms it's pretty self-evident.

For example, Sir Francis Bacon, English author, courtier, & philosopher (1561 - 1626): "Money is like muck, not good except it be spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

The Washington Times or the Evening Standard would be perfectly reasonable sources for evidence. Rush Limbaugh I suspect rather less so.

When it comes to evidence, I often prefer to use versions of news stories from the Daily Telegraph rather than the Guardian, to avoid the assumption that there might be a "liberal" bias. (Though I am aware that in American terms the Daily Telegraph, supporting the UK Conservative Party as it does, might count as a bit left-wing at times in USA politics.)

Opinion pieces are not evidence. People tend to link to them, or post extracts from them, because they think they more clearly represent the point of view of the poster than anything they might write. They are very often wrong in this - first-person comments are often more persuasive.

................

I agree with Ebbie there - Obama seemed to deal with that question very well. If McCain or his scriptwriters had not decided to use it, I doubt if it would have been blown up into anything. I've often seen politicians, left and right, floored by unexpected questions, but this wasn't an example of that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Obama is not in trouble, Doug. It is McCain who shot from the lip without a clue as to where it was going to land. Obama answered Joe, the "Plumber" sanely and thoughtfully. McCain picked up a dirty stick. If I may mix metaphors.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM

All the guy did is ask a question. I'm confident Obama would love to retract his answer. The answer is what got Obama in trouble. Of course he didn't have a teleprompter so one must take that into consideration I guess.

So what do the liberals do? Why attack the plumber of course!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

I never will cease to be amazed that Mudcatters, when addressing a controversy, invariably present as evidence to support his or her pov information gathered from a liberal publication, television or radio network as proof. (See kat's post of "factual" information gleaned from The washington Post and MSNBC).

That makes as much sense as me offering information heard on the Rush Limbaugh radio program, or a quote from the Wall Street Journal or Evening Standard as evidence to support my point of view.

Ridiculous.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

How many bombs has Obama planed???

Fact: None

How many times has Obama said "God Damn America"???

Fact: None

I agree 100% Bobert, nor did I imply he did.

Is this your version of a serious sane argument?

My point was that Obama's relationship with Ayres and Wright has been sanitized while anybody that dares voice an opinion against Obama is attacked.

Are you a member of Obama's truth squads?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM

Joe the Plumber, if that's who he really was/is will be just fine... Word here in the holler is that McCain and his wife are in discussion with Joe's people about adopting him...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

Sorry about that mg, and I hope very much you change your mind.

I appreciate the way in you have reacted angrily about what you have seen as unfair treatment of this bloke. And I suspect that part of that may have been provoked by genuinely slanderous and snobbish stuff that you have come across elsewhere.

But I don't think that the comments on the Mudcat have in fact amounted to that. Some criticism, coloured by the current high octane emotions which seem to be running so freely in the Sates around this whole election, but targetted on Joe's evidently inaccurate statement of his own situation in framing that question to Obama.

But I can't see how that amounts to "slander". (I don't myself see any reason why a member of the public should have to stick to the strict personal facts in such a case - there was nothing impossible about the scenario he outlined of scene who might stand to lose in a change of taxation, it was just that he wasn't actually such a person. If it's a fault it's a pretty trivial one.)

If this Joe has lost his job, or potentially has lost his job, that is nothing to do with anything anybody here has written, and is entirely down to McCain's casual use of him as a political weapon, which focussed media and bureaucratic attention on him.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM

I am done with Mudcat for at least several months. Maybe permanently. I have lost too much respect for too many people who think it is OK to slander someone and potentially cause him/her to lose his job. It is too serious. Goodbye. Some of you know how to find me. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:44 AM

forgot to post my name, again..sorry Joe....

From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

'When people say they want the government to use their tax money in ways that benefit them,......
.....If we give the government money to use in ways that will help us accomplish things that each person cannot accomplish on their own, that is when the government is doing what it's supposed to be doing....'

Furthermore:
When that same government squanders, misuses and 'porks-up' some money embezzling bill, or piece of legislation, those assholes should be brought to trial and, if found guilty, should be thrown in the poky, for a long, needed vacation! When that same government, uses OUR money, to make policies, for corrupt political means, to unlawfully subvert our government, (us) to fund their activities, to destroy our form of government, a charge of treason seems appropriate!....This includes ALL elected 'officials' who violate their oath to uphold the constitution, the law, of OUR nation. If they want to take away OUR freedom, then taking away theirs seems fitting!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:21 AM

Well Well Well. Joe the plumber is not a candidate Bobert. Anyway, how many of Joe's associates have planned bombings and said God Damn America?

"abosolutely no regard for the truth"

Who said "America is getting more like Haiti where 1% hold all the wealth."

I hear the arrogant Mr Obama condescendingly saying "A plumber is the guy he's fighting for".

Putting down a working man because he dares to call his plan of redistrubution of wealth socialist. Call out the truth squads, call the brown shirts. Don't let that man exercise his freedom of speech. It might hurt Obama's campaign.

Vote for him Bobert. Don't let me stop you. Vote several times through those minimum wage dope smokers from Acorn. You are going to get what you deserve. We will be like Haiti except 1% will really own all the wealth. The elitist 1% that knows what is best for all of us and is going to decide who gets what.

Who owns all the wealth in Cuba? Who owns all the wealth in North Korea? How does the voting work there?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: fumblefingers
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM

I guess if one will be the recipient of the wealth that Obama says he wants to spread around, then belittling Joe the Plumber seems reasonable. If one is part of the so-called mainstream media, then digging up dirt on the man asking the question in an attempt to destroy him is more important than the clearly socialist message that came from the annointed one.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:48 PM

I am told by 4 cable news networks that Obama attacked this Joe the Plumber. They don't say allegedly, they say attacked but no mention of weapons or injuries.

If so I hope Joe is OK. Is there an address for us to send flowers?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

When people say they want the government to use their tax money in ways that benefit them, they're not asking for a handout. It's our money, and we have a right to say how we want our money used.

I notice the very same kinds of people who say that it's our money and the government should give it back to us are the ones who say that people don't have a right to tell the government how to use the money we give them.

If we give the government money to use in ways that will help us accomplish things that each person cannot accomplish on their own, that is when the government is doing what it's supposed to be doing. That's the whole point of government. If we give the government money and then we tell them what to do with it, we are doing exactly what we have a right to do as taxpayers. It's our money - it's our government - we own it, and we are its boss. We give the government money specifically for this purpose. We don't pay the government so that it can set up a private standing army, as it'd doing now, we don't pay the government to build an empire as it's been doing, we don't pay the government to crush other peoples' democracies, as it's been doing for decades. We pay the government to do for us what individually, people cannot do on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM

No problem. i will start another thread called Cathy the Coder and we can deliberate there. I am an omniest, as I said before. I am for everyone and all sides of every question. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

"Oh tell me we are not going after Cathy the Coder now."

Jeez, mg, do you really feel that everyone is out to get working people? Is is so hard for you to realize that a person whose entire life has been lived in strained economic circumstances might be able to have an objective thought about the instrinsic value of a particular line of work?

I've had to earn my living, at times, by grinding away at tasks whose ultimate purpose was either against my pronicples, or simply pointless or impossible to discern. I understand only too well that this kind of situation can't be helped, but I don't think that sympathy for the working individual has to translate into blind acceptance of the job required of him/her by the corporation supplying the paycheck.

Recognizing that the huge amount of money and human energy going into efforts to create and manage redundant medical paperwork is NOT "going after" the individuals who find themselves in that line of work. Hell, I know that, when it comes to the job market, most people are only able to take whatever they can get.

Instead of getting all defensive on behalf of your friend Cathy, for whom I have every bit as much sympathy as you do, might it possible for you to give a moment's thought to how tragic it is that some of us have no choice but to spend our waking hours serving the needs of a system that may give us a paycheck with one hand, but picks our pocket and steals our dignity with the other hand?

I made a serious omission in that prior post about the horrendous waste and counterproductiveness of the current insurance-company-based health-payment system. Besides the unneccesary corporate profits, and besides the basic wastefulness of multiplying paperwork, there is the undeniable fact that insurance companies invest way too much of their income and of their human capital in the denial of claims filed by people who have been paying their premiums! Those are the folks we need to be crying for!

Now, if you come back boo-hooing to me about Al the Adjuster, who only denies medical care to dying children because The Boss gives him no chociue and he has to feed his family, well then, I just give up...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

Not sure; had he not been shot down, he certainly would have dropped more bombs than he did. That was his everyday job back then, on a carrier off the coast of Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

How many bombs has McCain dropped?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

Okay, Sawz...

How many bombs has Obama planed???

Fact: None

How many times has Obama said "God Damn America"???

Fact: None

Who here in Mudville says they admire with what Ayers did of what Rev. Wright said???

Fact: None, although I do understand the context of what Rev. Wright said...

You are so confused that you no longer, if you ever, capable of mounting one serious.sane argument... You should be ashamed of the slime you thorw with abosolutely no regard for the truth... I hope that Obam wins and that you are so pissed off that you leave the country... America has enough problems and losing yer delussional drybaby butt wouldn't hurt the country one bit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

And you guys accuse Republicans of character assassination.

How many bombings did Joe proudly plan?

Did he say "The sky was blue. The birds were singing. And the bastards were finally going to get what was coming to them."?

Did he say "God Damn America"?

Nope, You guys admire elite rich bombers and God Damners while condemning a hard working turd chaser trying to get ahead instead of pursuing government handouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:41 AM

Yer right, GfS...

Apparently the McCain camp has all but surrendered on talking about the "important stuff" and now it's this bogus "Joe the Plumber" that McCain has elevated to being the centerpiece of his campaign...

Fact is stranger than fiction...

BTW, the Dems don't seem too interested in Troopergate or Sarah Plain's mannerisms or you'd be seeing commercials about them...

Maybe that's why JtP got a promotion... The3 Repubs tried their level best to get the Dems to bite on Troopergate so they could do their "righteous indignation" thing but the Dems didn't bite... Maybe that is why McCain is so pissed off these days... He keeps thinking that he can trap Obama into saying something, you know, mean about him or his VP... Ain't worked...

I find it intweresting that Srah Palin is completely off limits... I mean, I understand that the Dems wouldn't want a male (ncluding Hillary..lol...) to put a butt whup on her but isn't there some lady Dem out there who could point out the fact that Ms. Sarah is nothin' but a loud mouthed moron??? Purdy??? Yeah... But fumber than a box of creek rocks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:33 AM

Bob the Builder!
Can we fix it?
Bob the Builder!
Yes we can!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:53 AM

There seem to be some weird fantasies inthe Sates about universal health services hurting doctors. It just doesn't work that way. It would probably be as hard to find doctors in Britain who'd want the American system as it would be to find patients who felt that way.
..............................
Perhaps it's time Bob the Builder started getting some of the same attention as Joe the Plumber.