Folk Club Manners

Subject: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

We had a new person at our folk club last night, he had a couple of guitars and a dulcimer. He waas obviously looking for gigs andhad a list of folk clubs which he had visited. Very talented if you like folk rock.

BUT Oh dear, oh dear, he:

                     Looked bored when other people were performing

                     Played with his guitar strap instead of
                     looking at the performer

AND WORST OF ALL HE CRUNCHED CRISPS AND NIBBLED NUTS.

Set me thinkin about folk club manners. When my son first started in folk at the age of 16 I told him:

NEVER come in or go out when people are performing.

NEVER sing a song which you know someone does regularly.

What examples of bad folk club manners can you give?

What advice would you give?

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

Did he perform?

Why were you not looking at the performer yourself ?

Does the club not have signs to guide folk club virgins through the mine field?

One sign had words to the effect of 'eat crisps at your peril' and Fleggy did, ! what happened next was borrowed from Joe Stead gig 1969 ish

perhaps he was bored !!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: paula t
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

Kathryn and Sarah were playing at Banbury festival last weekend. A guy's 'phone rang and then he proceeded to have his conversation while sitting right in front of them. Luckily ther girls were not too upset and in fact thought it was quite funny.Sarah actually invited the guy on the other end of the 'phone to join in with the song too.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

Big signs up all round our folk club calling for silence while people are performing. Once I was in the middle of a number - a pretty difficult number, at that* - when someone's phone rang. And rang. And rang. It was the standard Nokia ringtone, as immortalised by Dom Joly. It turned out to be the MC's phone, which he'd left behind (switched on) while he went to the bar downstairs.

You've got to laugh, really.

*Round Midnight. This was before I got heavily into trad.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM

I think flicking through folders of words to decide what you're going to sing next when others are doing their bit can be a bit offputting.

I've occasionally resorted to it, I will admit, when arriving a bit late, and wanting to try something new out, but only ever briefly. Some folks seem to have the need to do it incessantly, made even worse when they're the organisers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:16 PM

The best approach with mobile phones is to point out that the club appreciates people may have emergencies requiring them to leave their phones switched on. However, there is a charge of five pounds for charity each time one rings...!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the hat
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

Hi I am Pete The Hat from the Tudor Barn home of Folkmob Eltham. Folkmob.com

Our code is you shut up when folk are performing.and if people are to noisey we ring a bell to shut them up before the performer/s start. You dont cut across performers line of vision on route to the loo or anywhere else, you wait till the performer is finished

All our Smokers sit by the main door to the barn so they can go puff outside when they wish without disturbing singers or players.

I sit with the smokey noisey naughty lot has we are known but we do have respect for fellow performers and we expect the same in return
Regards Pete the Hat

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM

"NEVER sing a song which you know someone does regularly."

I'm not so sure about that one. We don't have a problem with that at the clubs that I go to. In fact, on a number of occasions someone's sung a song which others have enjoyed so much that they've been stimulated to go away and learn it themselves. Nobody owns a song, and it actually becomes very interesting to hear how different people interpret and sing/play a particular song.

This does, of course, all have to be done with respect, and if I'm aware that someone gets a special pleasure out of singing a particular song, then I'd be considerate enough not to do it before them on every occasion.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM

Regarding singing 'Other Peoples Songs' - What about stealing arrangements ?? Happened regularly local to me after 'The Trio' split !
I just took it as a complimentt to how good we COULD have been !

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: bruceCMR
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:21 PM

"Once I was in the middle of a number - a pretty difficult number, at that* - when someone's phone rang."

You've got the mic... say "go on, answer it.... tell them you're on your way home..."

I stole this one - it's (c) the referee at a snooker tournament

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM

I was at a session recently which is mostly (Irish) instrumental but with room for occasional unaccompanied songs and even
a recitation, dance.... whatever. Anyway, I was asked to sing a song. Among the dozen or so musicians was a trio of teenage girls - a fiddler, accordion and concertina player, respectively. While I was singing, not only did they chat among themselves - but they were simultaneously busy texting their friends! I was torn between being annoyed and being lost in admiration of their multi-tasking skills!

All three are already good musicians but, Jeez, they still have a lot to learn!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM

If that's you wife, tell her I'll be round in a bit

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

The fact that the guy whose phone was ringing was out of the room narrowed the options for a witty putdown. The fact that it was the MC didn't help, either.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

Did the chap in question ask for a booking at the end of the night and when you refused did you tell him why?

A good way to shut an unaccompanied phone up is to drop it in the owner's beer - or answer it and give the caller an ansafone style message.

I put a notice on the door telling people to wait until the performer has finished before coming into the room. It's surprising how many people can't read!

We have someone who will play sudoku or whatever on their PDA all night. I need a suitable put down for that one.

If someone does your song better than you then learn from it. If you do it better then do it the next time they're in the club.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM

Sometimes we have "upset Little Legs" nights in which we ALL take it in turns to do one of John Matthews' songs before he can!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:36 PM

Indeed. And ain't it fun?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:38 PM

This all reminds me of why I left the folk scene.

It's full of precious performers who don't learn their songs and have to resort to crib sheets and bore the pants of the audience.

Many folk floor singers no longer have the ability to capture the audience with their music because they are not used to playing to 'live' audiences. They expect silence and attention when their performances seldom warrant it.

People usually talk, eat crisps etc because they are bored! It's the performer's job to engage them.

Try the open mic scene or a real pub with real people for crying out loud!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:38 PM

I sort of agree. I think we should all be courteous and nice to people, and careful of each others feelings.

On the other hand, I DO feel that somehow we sort of lose something when we insist on the rapt attention of the audience. After all much of this music sprang from noisy alehouses and the like.

There are some clubs and radio programmes that are very disrespectful of people that play folk clubs, but also are capable of doing pub gigs. It makes me wonder, if theres not an element of jealousy in the equation - because if you can't have at least a brave attempt at dominating a room - you will have a job making a living as an entertainer. That is if you're not one of the folk scene's elected- who all seem to do 'very nice - thankyou!'

Also its sad. because depending on a silent respectful audience is very limiting. I was amazed once when i was corresponded with Noel Murphy and he told me he could not bear to play noisy Irish theme bars. Similarly Jack Hudson would never touch the country and western clubs. Both artists could have made a fortune if they could have got their heads round gigging such places when they were thriving. Well not a fortune - but enough money to live comfortably.

I know what's coming. You people are such aficionados that a gross character like myself could never understand your fine feelings - but ordinary people have to make compromises. they go out to jobs they hate, they get their lives wasted. Why is it wrong to say to a musician - well theres supply and demand. And there ain't a demand for what you WANT to do, but there is a demand for someone with your sort of talents.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

I'm with the "make it noisy" crowd. For the sort of music we're talking about, performers have been expected to carry on through multiple simultaneous sex acts, opium smoking, ecstatic religious possession, gambling and gunshots.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM

Captain Swing has defined it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:38 PM

Well I'd better just go and join the Ladies choral Society!

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:03 PM

I certainly wouldn't criticize someone for playing with their guitar strap or silently texting somone or playing with a non-noisy game boy. How does it hurt anyone? Maybe they are along with someone else who likes the music and they are just providing company or whatever. mg

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:04 PM

There's RULES?!!!


So THAT's why they kicked me out!


.....

:-P

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:39 PM

"If that's your wife, tell her I'll be round in a bit"

Tell your wife I'm not finished here yet - what time do you lock up?

"We have someone who will play sudoku or whatever on their PDA all night. I need a suitable put down for that one."

We DO like to share here, mate! The nine in the top right corner! :-)


"I'm with the "make it noisy" crowd."

While it is good (from personal experience) to start out performing in front of a quiet appreciative audience, It's actually more fun to work a noisy room. If you can shut them up and get them involved, you don't need to ask anybody else how good you are... I actually find it MUCH harder to work a handful of people, than a large mass (The smell of the crowd and the roar of the greasepaint - Come feel the noise!) - a few hundred is probably the largest crowd. Telling a story that gets the audience involved so hard that they say afterwards that they were actually frightened and saw the beastie... wow!

While playing an instrument and/or singing - that takes far more internal focus and concentration than 'just talking' - for me at least.

I once watched a master at work. He started on banjo (normal volume) - the crowd was noisy. He gradually got quieter and quieter - then Boom! loud. All eyes in the room turned to him and all conversation stopped! :-)

"On the other hand, I DO feel that somehow we sort of lose something when we insist on the rapt attention of the audience. After all much of this music sprang from noisy alehouses and the like.""It's full of precious performers who don't learn their songs and have to resort to crib sheets and bore the pants of the audience. Many folk floor singers no longer have the ability to capture the audience with their music because they are not used to playing to 'live' audiences. They expect silence and attention when their performances seldom warrant it."

The top British performers (musos and comedians) in the 60s/70s (till they died) learned their trade in The Music Halls - only the trapeze and knife throwing acts got silence! There is an expression - 'dieing' - which I can assure you - you should experience ONCE, so you never want to feel that again and work harder!

"not used to playing to 'live' audiences"

And that IS the whole point of 'entertaining'... otherwise these days, just put it on a self published CD and make your own webpage which you always put in your signature at the end of every post on the web in which you tell everybody else how brilliant your ideas are, and they don't know what they are talking about because you once attended an Adult Education course on beadworking and take long walks in the country where your muse inspires you to make music by smashing trash can lids together while gargling Listerine... that way you don't have to deal with real people and their illogical ideas.

I can, at times, walk the walk - but it IS hard work - and I can understand the idea of showing respect, and especially ENCOURAGING beginners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:47 AM

Well, sorry, I don,t think texting or playing on a game boy, evenly silently, is acceptable, although it depends on how noticeable it is I suppose - if it is in a smallish room or with people sitting round in a circle, these type of activities do give give the impression of being bored and I may be old fashioned but I don't think that is polite or appreciative. The guy's body language and facial expression gave a definite message of, ' I'm bored amongst these amateurs. When is it going to be my turn again? They should listen to ME'. I have to add that he may have been bored I suppose, but he shouldn't have been as there were some excellent performers there that night, doing a wide range of interesting stuff.



Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM

In my view what is/isn't acceptable depends upon the setting. On one hand singing in bars/pubs where the public are free to come and go and at a lot of socials where the music is largely 'wallpaper' it is up to the performer to earn the attention of the audience.

In a club then it is nice to have mutual respect between performers who should know better; folk clubs do have two purposes - one to perform folk song/music and/or see it performed but also as a social gathering where one meets up with friends. However, it is good manners to to keep any conversations down to a reasonable level, at the back of the room - not just for the performer, but also for the audience members who rather listen to the performers than other peoples conversations/mobile phones, etc.

In a concert venue, then everyone should display the same manners as would a theatre or opera audience, especially if the tickets are expensive.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:32 AM

"Noisy crowd"
I think a lot depends on the noise.
I find it quite nice that once in a while the pool players wander through to have a listen or the drunken lad is singing along.
But sometimes the muso's are far to precious and sulky about how much attention is being payed to them.
Of course much of the noise can be coming from yer fellow performers,and if you just decided that you should play in a local pub on dominoes night, or seem to be trying to take over "their" local
you do get resistance.
Now if you have a room set aside for aconcert or just for a singaround tell em to shut the f*** up!
I find a simple honest aproach works.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:43 AM

Never mind being too noisy. What about people who actually go to sleep in folk clubs? I was once in a concert where Les Barker was performing when a guy was fast asleep and snoring on the front row! I don't know how he managed it but I think the 8 - 9 pints might have had something to do with it!   Les came right down, stood over him and sang right down his ear!

Charlotte

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM

It's the ones who go to sleep *while performing* you worry about more.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:59 AM

Yes, I've been in clubs where the performer stands noodling away, eyes closed gently swaying - you do wonder!

Ella

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:00 AM

Horses for courses, isn't it? If we're playing in an open acoustic session - in a pub bar - and the punters in the bar want to talk, that's up to them. If they want to listen, jolly good! One thing I do know: there's nothing like a girl singing a song in a quiet voice to get the background noise down to nothing. Good tip, isn't it? Drop the volume to get the attention.

However, in a folk club, say in a room set aside for the occasion, then audience quiet and respect is a sine qua non. As for those high and mighty performers who are up their own arses, I usually find there's someone around to show them up or make them look small. And if they behave like that and then want a booking, then it's always a pleasure to tell 'em to go and f--- themselves!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:08 AM

OK guys. What is the best way to tell a performer who just turns up to a regular session in a pub, that he is utter crap?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM

If it's an open mic, open stage or folk club setting - i.e. with performers taking their turn to do a spot - then I think you have to let them have their spot. Depends what kind of crap you're talking about. If they're full of themselves and obnoxious, then I would have a quiet word with them outside the set. If they're a pure beginner and not very good, then I think patience is essential - so many of us learnt what to do in a sympathetic folk club setting.

If it's an acoustic session with everyone joining in, then you can either (again) have a word to explain why they're not gelling, or - more likely - they'll probably just get drowned out anyway! Once again, people have to learn, and you can't get always the feel of a tune from music. Not easy though!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

Because I am a teacher I have a real job in stopping myself from saying to people who use their mobile while people are performing, 'I think you know the rules. I'll look after that until the end of the session!' That would go down well, wouldn't it?

Millie

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:09 AM

"OK guys. What is the best way to tell a performer who just turns up to a regular session in a pub, that he is utter crap?"

"If they're a pure beginner and not very good, then I think patience is essential"

Everybody has the right to get up and have a go - they may have been practicing for weeks at home and go to pieces in front of an audience. Why not have a quiet word with them and say something like "you seem to be having trouble with those chords - can I suggest a better way of playing them?" or you get the people who start too low because it sounded OK in their front room - again a word of advice like "It's not a problem if you want to stop and put the capo up a couple of frets - we've all been there"

I don't expect concert performances from people who come to my club - we're there to enjoy ourselves at the end of the day but it's good to see how people improve over time if you give them some encouragement and advice now and again.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM

The guy I am thinking of is not that much of a beginner, he is a refugee from another club that has closed down - his guitar playing is pretty poor and his voice is dire. He does, though, bring a few people with him who can sing and play well.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM

I know of one session that was thrown out of a pub because of a particularly dire singer (he was funny the first time but less so when he did it every week).

Maybe you could get the bar staff to ban him?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM

Manners maketh the man and woman. They cost nothing but can have major effects when not used...

I thought I was pretty well mannered until I read this thread and saw some of the things that annoy others. By far the biggest thing I am guilty of is sometimes choosing my next song while someone is singing. I do it quietly but I can see how it could be contrived as being uninterested in that performer's song. I will no longer do that and try to go better prepared in future.

My phone once went off in someone's performance break (a few seconds earlier or later it would have happened while they sang). I have corrected that since.

Yes, I have done some of the things above unintentionally but thanks to the thread will now do my utmost to correct it.

I try not to sing somone's song if they are there. I would hate to make a mess of their song. But if I go to another club I will gladly 'advertise' who I heard sing that song and why it got to me. I like to plug ability in others that I do not have. I can only aspire to get anywhere close to those I admire and listen to the most but it is also important to listen to the newcomers too because I am clsoer to that time than most. We all began somewhere and I have had a great deal of help and encouragement from so many in the few months I have been on the scene. I now frequent at least three clubs regularly and have to say that most members are never intentionally rude or bad mannered. Manners can also come from a mutual respect.

As there are so many Teachers in Folk in this part of England I think I should listen to the above report and do something about "Must try harder" in future. Both with songs and manners! I have certainly been guilty of bad manners and yet would have considered myself most polite before reading this thread.

Let her who is without song cast the first note! ;-)

Best wishes

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM

If you can't sing, don't sing - I can't sing and I don't sing

They also serve who only sit and listen

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Don't try and talk to me while I'm trying to listen!!!

We don't have "Folk Clubs" here. And, being a musician who gets gigs, I don't get to see others perform very often. But at every festival I do, I'll be stand in the back watching some, or trying to, and invariably someone will come up and start to tell me a story.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:29 AM

"Don't have folk clubs here"

Where?

Good opportunity to start one I'd say!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM

Mark Dowding:

"I don't expect concert performances from people who come to my club - we're there to enjoy ourselves at the end of the day but it's good to see how people improve over time if you give them some encouragement and advice now and again."

Amen to that, Mark. I can still recall my first performance at a club - back in 1965 - shaking life a leaf, but grateful for the chance, and overjoyed at the applause. We all have to start somewhere and folk clubs are/were traditionally quite forgiving environments. And I learned good manners in these clubs a well!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Dave Mc
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:37 AM

If I look bored through the residents' spots at my local folk club it is because they are boring me. Surely courtesy goes both ways? After sitting patiently through hundreds of renditions of the same badly sung, badly written, out-of-tune guitar schlock by the same culprits, week after week, aren't I now entitled to have a quiet read and a sigh while they are busy wanking in public? There are a couple of exceptions on the panel of residents who do a good job, but the rest really are only delaying the main act's appearance. They are an inconvenience not an asset. I find that discourteous to the billed artist and to me as paying customer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM

Excellent post Dave Mc - excellent

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

Dave Mc - I know what you're talking about. There's a club near me where many of the "regulars" I( can't call them "residents") are, on the whole, absolute tosh. In the end, I decided to not go there and take me interest elsewhere. However, there should be places where newbies can start - if they don't improve, then so be it - but let's not diminish the opportunity.

By "tosh", I mean things like: (a) bringing the music when they know they only have two songs to perform - not taking the trouble to learn them beforehand; (b) singing inappropriate material - Abba at a folk club anyone?; (c) thinking they're great when they're absolute crap - no self-critical sense...; (d) add your own. A penance, to be sure - but where do you draw the line.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM

We go to a range of clubs within a 30 mile radius of where we live.

The most successful ones are where the organisers actively encourage all the performers whatever the standard.

Those where the opposite happens remain "incestuous" and cliquy.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM

I remember one night i was watching Wizz Jones at the Mansfield club and there were these really noisy sods at the back chattering excitedly in the first half. And next to me was this guy who had come all the way from south of Leicester to see Wizz and I could see the chatterers were really spoiling several peoples enjoyment inclusding this bloke who had come miles.

thankfully - someone shut the buggers up somehow for the second half. there has to be some sort of tough guy (or tough gal!) who can face down the idiots.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:20 AM

Some years ago we had a super Folk Club in one of our village pubs run by a doctor. The pub was noted also for it`s cuisine, one speciality being Cumberland sausages with mashed potatoes, onions and gravy you would kill for. One evening a visitor brought his meal into the club and proceeded to enjoy his meal whilst the performers strutted their stuff. His table manners were impeccable, he appreciated the songs and music, was quiet and attentive and applauded sincerely. BUT, he offered nobody a taste of his dinner, even the guest would you believe. Now that is the acme of bad manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:46 AM

Mark,....' I don't expect concert performances......'

Nice one ! One of the good things about Folk clubs is the fact that you get a wide range of abilities. This can serve a useful purpose of perspective of your own perceived performance. Also you get a lot of encouragement and at the end of the day ' practice makes perfect'. I'm sure everyone has experienced that wonderful feeling when you realise that everyone is listening to you, after that the odd noise here and there doesn't really matter. Good job the gymnasts aren't put off by a little bit of noise!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

Bad manners come in all shapes and sizes. It used to piss me off no end when 'booking seekers' turned up, left their names at the desk, then went down to the bar, making no effort whatever to find out what the club was about. On numerous occasions when I did the door I was asked to page such people when it was 'their turn to go on'. Invariably they had nothing to offer the club and we had nothing to offer them, so they were not booked - arrogant prats.
"One of the good things about Folk clubs is the fact that you get a wide range of abilities"
In the light of a currently running thread thread 'Folk music ridiculed again', while it is true that abilities can vary, unless you set a reasonable standard, and if you allow your club to be used as a place to practice in public, it will never raise above being 'amateur night at the Frog and Ferret'.
It is unfair to those who have put in the work, an insult to the perception of the audience and a contempt for the music to encourage people to perform if they have not put in enough work to make an acceptable job of a song. Clubs should be places for 'the finished article' and not 'work in progress'.
When I was involved with The Singers Club we were regularly visited by a young woman who was totally incapable of producing two notes which related to each other. She invariably asked to sing and was allocated one song (not by me).
Over the year she attended she never improved; she was invited to attend our singing workshop but felt she didn't need it.
After a year the audience committee received a letter of protest from her and her friend complaining that she was only allowed one song.
If you are serious about encouraging new singers run a workshop.
Otherwise folk music will roundly deserve all the ridicule it receives.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

If you are serious about encouraging new singers run a workshop.[jim carroll].
yes,and perhaps instrument workshops too.
The sign of a good club [imo]is among other things good organisation,it is perfectly possible and can be acceptable if a weak singer,is followed by a good singer or a resident,so this is the reponsibilty of the organiser or mc.
in this way singers who may or may have potential[but need help] can be encouraged,and sandwiched between good performers,making it more acceptable for the paying public.
Bad Manners,does come in all shapes and sizes,it is the responsibility of the organiser,to have a decent mc,so that everyone gets a proper introduction,and gets the guests name correct[it happens more frequently than one thinks]
some while ago,I was guesting at a folk festival.and the MC[a professional performer himself,introduced me ;now we have Dick Miles,what sort of a bloody introduction is that.
this MC was paid to be at that festival,whether he likes the performer or not,he is paid to present and introduce people properly,this involves at the very least,stating what the performer does [plays concertina sings traditional songs is over here on tour from Ireland etc etc]and convincing the audience that the person is good.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

I totally agree with your post Jim. It be nice if an experienced singer acted as a sort of informal 'mentor' to give newbies advice in choosing songs etc.Some new singers choose such bloomin'complicated songs instead of something simple to begin with 3 -4 verses, a chorus and a strong rhythm.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM

Whats the problem with learners who bring there music up on stage with them and stumble through a song? with the help and encouragement from appluse they will get better and more confident. Trust me I have been there. And still there in other respects
A friendly amosphere helps. If someone sings your song so what?

There,s a diferrence between a Folk Club and The Dead Dog Saloon at the OK Carral?
Kind Regards Pete

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:02 PM

"Whats the problem with learners who bring there music up on stage with them and stumble through a song?"
If you don't know why it's unwise to encourage incompetent singing, I very much doubt if there's any point trying to explain it.
The problem is that your audience has to listen to it - but that will soon sort itself out as, if they have any sense they'll piss off and find another club where the singers can sing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

I think its inevitible that most new singers are going to want their words with them as a 'safety net' if nothing else. There's nothing like nerves for stealing the words from your head! It doesn't meam they havent practised. However, I do think that they should be encouraged to do without asap - most people will recognise thenmselves the difference it makes to their singing.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:28 PM

I would agree that before performing people should learn the words, but I think it's acceptable to have a 'cheat sheet' available to glance at in case of a senior moment or forgetfulness brought on by a case of the jitters. I have occasionally been surprised at people who pull out a piece of paper and haltingly stumble through a song they are 'just learning' rather than singing something they know well and saving the new piece until they've practiced.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

Jim has said it here - and on innumerable other threads over the past couple of years - and it's a message that needs heeding. If you still don't 'get it', then it's hardly surprising that folk aren't beating a path to your club's door.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM

Songs should be performed without any crutches.
if a performer forgets the words,they should keep cool, ad lib,and/or carry on to the next verse,that is what performing is all about,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

If a performance shows no merit or gives you no enjoyment, if it was in your opinion unworthy of putting before the audience, don't clap

If enough people agree with you the perpetrator will slink off to the sound of their own footsteps. It is actually true that in a folk club people WILL clap anything

As not clapping at all is in itself bad folk club manners there are a number of devices that can be used without necessarily having to go to the loo - make sure you have a drink in your hand when they finish and gently pat the table or your knee, drop something on the floor so you have to pick it up, or if you clap using the boney parts of your palms it makes precious little noise. You retain your standing with other club mambers and have made your point

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Just a thought.

I know two singers who have very good voices, more than reasonable musical skills, and lousy memories. Both sing from sheets on music stands, and both are VERY well worth listening to.

Neither would get a look in at Jim's club, and the club would be the poorer for it.

Any thoughts on how you avoid missing a worthwhile musical experience, while trying to keep standards high?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM

There is a world of difference between someone who has learnt a song and has a cheat sheet as a prop and someone who has made no attempt whatsoever to learn a song and then stumbles through the words from a sheet whilst trying to remember the tune which they haven't really learnt either. And then repeats the process next week - or even the same night - with another song. And the week after ....

Oh that we all would read and digest Jim Carroll's two posts of 3.26PM and 4.02PM today.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

Please Jim Enlighten me re incompetent singing. You dont have       to write a book.

With the help and encouragement of the folk at the club I attend I have managed to ditch the lyric sheet, ditch the music sheet and both sing and play with confidence. But it was helpful having both to begin with at the start. To avoid distraction and the odd Idiot I have also learned to do both with me eyes lightly shut. Inregards to aldiences buggering off else where well it dont happen at the club I attend indeed the numbers seem to get bigger and return each week with friends in tow.

The club I attend is not situated above a Pub. The Pubs gone and we thought it would have a inpact on the members but no it did not.ok some have gone not to return but we are allowed to bring our own beer with us damn sight cheeper.
A decent club with decent commitee and reasonable subs and above help and partisipation with learners is what makes the club I attend so good . Ok its not strictly folk folk folk Trad but whats wrong with that?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:26 PM

John from Kemsing if you're looking for a local folk club see the Fox and Hounds Folk Club thread. I run that, and Orpington Friday Folk. A few years ago, we were recording a live c.d at Orpington, and put up a notice on the door politely asking people not to go in and out whilst the guy was singing. Not only was this ignored, but someone slammed the door causing us to lose 3 songs which tied in together. Compared to that, leafing through your song book or using a crib sheet is a minor misdemeanor!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM

I used to find singarounds ideal for trying out new songs/tunes and would from time to time look at the words/dots. On the other hand I wouldn't use crib sheets for floor spots/performances.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:23 PM

I still prefere to steer clear of floor slots due to still not being that confident under lights and on mike I accasionally put me name down but if not I am aways asked if I want to. I love singarounds

Girl Friday you can put notices up and from my experience of working for 30 years with the General public people take not a blind bit of notice of them I see folk on CCTV every day ever walk past a notice. look at it directly and still proceed or rip it off the wall
completely. Notices from my experience with a small number of folk are like Red Rag to a Ball

I worked down Chislehurst caves for 20 years and 1 day we roped off and noticed a certain tunnel on the tour route and hid round the back watching people diliberately wandering off the tour route at that point of the tour so we jumped out at them and scared then shitless.
Served em right too.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

When people are laying down the law, saying that this or that should be the case and generally being dogmatic, they would do well to reflect on the different types of situation covered by the term "Folk Club".

If it is a singaround, then it is not about entertaining the public at large, but it is a sharing of songs and a social evening where people who share an interest can get together to enjoy that shared interest and for the most part, anyone who wants to can sing a song in their turn. It is also worth bearing in mind that not everyone who goes to singarounds regularly performs before an audience nor, in some cases, do they have ambitions to do so.

If, on the other hand, it is a concert where someone is being paid to entertain, then it is reasonable to expect a certain minimum standard and the kind of standards that Jim Carroll argues for are entirely appropriate.

Please just show a degree of tolerance and when making your statements about what should and should not be and bear in mind the, to my mind, fundamental difference between a singaround and a concert type evening.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM

Dave McC. So very, very well put.
I can say no more, except, maybeas follows:
Don't go to a folk club to do your practising. We can do without that.
Learn the bloody song by heart, at home, and then, when you are absolutely sure you are ready, do it really well in public.
That'll be great. You will have a great feeling of achievement, well-earned, too.
There is absolutely no shame in not knowing the song by heart.
The problem lies in reading the words off a crib-sheet and not knowing all the chords properly, people don't want to hear you practise on their time, they really, really don't.
I'm talking from 45 years of folk club experience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

So true, Tootler. Well expressed!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete theHat
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

Tootler
I agree with you and so now with Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:18 PM

I think te "standards" mob overdo it.

Karaoke seems in general to be more popular than folk nights - yet if you go to a karaoke night you will hear a lot of truly dreadful singing, but everyone seems to enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: fisheye
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM

We would all like to be perfectionist however surely the idea of a folk club is to entertain and encourage people to enjoy folk music. If one is buying a ticket to see an artist you should expect a level of professionalism. I believe I can handle a guitar with some degree of skill, as for remembering words 'I cannot'. Practice before performing, yes i agree, but then some of us have nerves that seem to throw all practice skills out of the window when you are on the stage. I know I have been suffering from them for over 40 years of playing music.

Fisheye

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:32 AM

would you pay to go to kareeokaycroakie I would not

If its a freebie folk session its free for all

if you pay then you expect something for your moneyif not you have the right to complain

so if you sing before a paying audience please be good enough and if you are amongst others as a memeber of a paying audeinece dont do anything to distract the listeners


or else

you have been warned

and if you attend one of my pub gigs , you talk at your own risk!!!

no prisoners

theres always the other bar

but if I'm engaged for 'ambience' purposes feel free to ignore me,

but

you have been warned

again

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Proogle
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM

Too much to read again...read some...making point :P

I stewarded the Ham at Sidmouth this year and there was this lady who was sooooooooooooooooo stroppy...the lights were too bright, her seat uncomfortable blah blah and then she would get pissed at the stewards and walk out in the middle of the efing concert especially when she was sat at the front in the middle of a row! argh!
I may be young but i do care about folk manners!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:29 AM

next time leave yer mum at the home

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Malcolm
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:32 AM

It seems to me that the idea of a folk CLUB is that you will have members at all levels. Tolerating the weak and helping them improve (where possible!) is part of being a club.

If you just want to listen to good performers (ignoring how they became good), you want a concert.

A local club has some singaround/open mic nights, some nights with a paid performer with local support, and some nights with no floor singers just paid acts. It seems to survive pretty well on this mix. (Admission price varies accordingly)

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:36 AM

So, I gather that (by some definitions) the person who gets up ands sings a song with poor phrasing, and off-key,with a badly tuned guitar, but has learnt all the words, is preferable to someone who sings beautifully but has to refer to a lyrics sheet.

Obviously I am taking this to extremes, but I think I make the point!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: OldFolkie
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM

Being somewhat one of the 'older generation', but also having been a beginner once, I do agree with a lot of the issues on this thread.

Yes, beginners need to be encouraged - otherwise the folk scene will die.

On the other hand those who are not beginners should have at least practised their songs beforehand. If nerves or forgetfulness do strike very occasionally (as they do)to those of us who are, and wish to remain, unpaid performers at singer's nights or singarounds then I believe most folk club audiences will accept very occasional failures. On the other hand, if the words or chords are forgotten every time by a so-called experienced performer, then, I for one do get fed up.

At one of the clubs that we go to, there is a guy who has been around for many years (so he tells us) comes in every time with a new song that he has written. Hasn't learned either the words or the chords; brings in a music stand and his reading glasses. Result is a song performed lifelessly, with no feeling, with little audience interest. This last time, as soon as it was his turn, there was a rushed exit to the bar by several of the people in the room. I wonder whether he'll get the message?

And there is definitley no place for mobiles being on in a folk club!

However, as others have noted, a few of the other contributions to this thread have made me think about things that I do that might others might find annoying..

Grumpy Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

running workshops is good but running workshops successfully requires skill and diplomacy and tact.
firstly singers should not be told they must sing in a certain way[stylistically],
workshops should concentrate upon improving technique,suggestions can be made,directing the singer to recordings of differing singers that the person might benefit from listening to.,and then let the person chhose their own direction,suggestions can be made that a singer might be more suited to singing shanties or whatever,but that is about as far as you should go.
the singer has to make their own decisions,telling people what to/ or how to sing will often be counter productive and is bad manners.
it is also bad manners,to say to a performer while they are on stage: we dont allow political songs here,or you must only sing songs from your own culture or in your own accent[ Ibelieve this is what happened to Lisa Turner,a fine blues singer at the ballad and blues club,or was it Maccoll/Seegers singers club].
A club may have rules,but the time to sort that out is not on stage,but during the break or afterwards.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:02 AM

Surely there needs to be give and take on both sides. It's worth looking at John Routledge's comment again:

"There is a world of difference between someone who has learnt a song and has a cheat sheet as a prop and someone who has made no attempt whatsoever to learn a song and then stumbles through the words from a sheet whilst trying to remember the tune which they haven't really learnt either. And then repeats the process next week - or even the same night - with another song. And the week after ....".

Absolutely!

I'm not particularly keen on singers reading the words while singing, for obvious reasons, and I don't do it myself. However, I know performers who do bother to learn songs and perform them well, but through poor memory, nervousness or other reasons, feel more comfortable when they have the words with them. I don't find that particularly offensive.

What I do find irritating is the kind of experience that I had about a year ago when visiting another folk club (which will remain nameless!) for the first time. This bloke got up behind the mike with his guitar and words and started to sing a song which I knew. He seemed to find it difficult to read while he was singing and misread words on a number of occasions, rendering the song, for the most part, meaningless. He seemed to be unaware that he'd been singing wrong words because he hadn't put any effort into learning them in the first place!

As I said, it's a matter of give and take. In the first example I gave, the singer's doing his best to give something to the audience, and he may need a bit of help to do it. In the second example the singer's not really bothered about the audience (or even the song):he just wants his five minutes of fame.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:00 AM

The trend for people to bring looseleaf binders with a hundred or more songs that they can't sing seems to be growing. If a song is worth singing, its worth learning, in my opinion. However, we do have a chap who is a very accomplished singer, one of the best we have actually. He cannot perform without his songbook in front of him - its a battered old A4 hardback with songs he has collected over the past 30 odd years in it. He never reads from it, or uses it for much more than deciding which song he is going to treat us to, but without it he would be lost.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

All choral works are usually sung from the score

what the heck anyway its only an English thing !!!

us celts learn to perform before we walk

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM

A few years ago, there was a performer who came to a club we went to who was really excellent at delivering comic poetry, timing , everything spot on!

He decided to become a singer, and went out and bought himself a top of the range Martin before he'd even learned a chord.

He got up to perform and announced that he was going to do the Mick Ryan song "The Man that I did Kill". Those of you who know the song will realise that it is quite long, but such a good song that you don't notice the length when done by a reasonable performer.

He accompanied himself with one chord per syllable, completely ignoring any time signature, having switched on his video camera to record himself performing.

About three quarters way through the song, he forgot the words and siad:-

"Oh, I'll have to start again!" He did this and began all over again.

At least it makes a good story to tell.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM

Acorn4.
       I am just reading your thread and it conjures up such a hilarious picture that I burst out laughing. Please tell us more tales from your club to brighten this dreary day.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:51 AM

I totally agree with your post Melodeonboy. There is a very big difference between someone who has not even attempted to learn the words and a new singer who wants a cheat sheet, 'just in case'. Dick, I don't think you can expect a newbie to easily be able to ad-lib or just carry on, when they are half paralysed with fright anyway, but ready to have ago. Have you never had the experience of singing a song perfectly a dozen times in your own home but messing it up when you are standing at the front? Also, some people may be very good singers, but find it very difficult indeed to learn songs by heart. It seems a shame to discourage new singers from performing by sending out negative vibes.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

,when I started as a floor singer 1971,the competition was tough,nobody ever sang songs with words in front of them.
I can remember going out to the toilet to run through words ,to make sure I had it right,if you werent any good you didnt get a chance to sing the next week,if a performer forgot a word they carried on,we had to learn how to perform,as we were doing it,and that[ imo] is the only way.
I experienced all those things as a newbie performer,but I got up and did it,I practised a lot before I went on,if i played a wrong chord aor sang a wrong word [I let it go ,and made sure I got the next verse right].
making a mistake can happen to anyone,the most important thing is to learn to feel at ease,whilst performing,[this is what the alexander technique is about],throw away your word sheets,if you make a mistake,make it up or make a joke.,carry on,nerves have to be conquered.
on the other hand Iwould never criticise anyone in a club if they were singing with words [if I was guesting,or whatever],Iam not that bad mannered,I am just stating my opinion.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:52 AM

Your experience, Cap'n B, sounds like mine - except it was 1965 when I started. I can't remember anyone ever bringing along music to a club on those days. We simply practised and practised until we got it as right as we could. (Monty Python:" If you told the young people of today, they wouldn't believe you...").

At a club I used to go down here in Sussex - until recently - almost every single performer plonked their music down on a music stand. Now, I don't mind a bit of that, and I do appreciate that people have to learn - and I also occasionally stumble over a word here and there - but it's as far removed from the folk clubs I remember as it's possible to be. I got so fed up with it, I just stopped going there. The whole evening just seemed so lifeless, only generating any interest when someone got up and performed from their heart.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: breezy
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:52 AM

Heres an idea

listen to the source over a period of weeks, nay months if needs be until you find yersel humming the odd phrase, then add on bit by bit, to see if you can sing one verse , hurry not the learning unless you are gifted with total recall and of supreme intelligence, but imerse yersel totally in the piece

then when still alone

ditch the words and try
one verse at a time maybe in front of the mirror



Know your stuff thoroughly before attemping to perform it please   

respect the song and its author

I wanted to perform particular song before an audiencea few years back but luckily, I couldnt even start it, its taken me 3 years and I performed it perfectly last week.

Even the source artiste refuses to perform it, and he is a very famous folker indeed,

So the answer is 'practice' a discipline learned from 8 years of purgatory on the piano when very young

Good luck to one and all

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: henryclem
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM

There seems to be such a variety of formats - clubs, sessions, singarounds, concerts; every time a thread of this nature crops up it seems as if there is a collision of worlds!

I go to a few weekly clubs (and they are clubs) where they have a "name" guest maybe once a month, with singers nights otherwise. In my experience there is never a question of the regulars getting preference, whether it's a guest or singers' night - the format (except for spotlight nights) is one song each, and new visitors always get a turn, or two, even if we don't get round the room once/twice in the course of the evening. Basic courtesy towards visitors, I'd say. And everyone pays on the door, every week, whether or not they perform.

We have had people come in for the first time and do their song/tune
then pack up as soon as the next person starts, leaving while that person is actually performing. They are in the room long enough to observe the general proprieties practised by the gathering, but choose to ignore them.

Too much is made of the occasional lack of expertise. I regularly make a 70 mile round trip to Swindon Folksingers Club (which will celebrate 50 years in January 2010) because I think it is a great club for the very reason that it has a community of members of all ages, experience, ability, levels of self-confidence etc. Above all it's a happy and welcoming club (as I'm sure you'll agree, Dick). I've never had a bad night there, and I don't see that my paying at the door gives me the right to be intolerant of anyone who chooses to perform.

Henry

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,keith ferret
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

If you don't know the words to the song then how can you give it any feeling and interpretation. It's a disrespect to both the audience and the composer......all songs were written at some point... not to know, and be comfortable with the words and the tune is inexcusable. Because the folk tradition is oral....and possibly aural too...then it's ok if you don't sing the words exactly as written or heard.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

There seems to be some elitism being suggested which occurs on a higher level with some rather than others. I have seen the same thing expressed over people who do not use a capo over others who do. If you cannot play a chord in a key then you are less than useless...

Surely Folk is about folk, of all levels of experience and expertise, and that is what makes it so diverse. Some Folk clubs allow Country songs others not. It is all singing.

I had encepahlitis many years ago which left me with a short term memory deficit. I never realised how bad it was until I picked up my guitar again in May after a 13 year break. New songs just do not go in like they used to and I remember songs from 2 decades ago easier. So it is I use cheat sheets all the time. I really find it hard to remember all the words to new songs and the more I find the harder it is.

This does not stop me from being able to pass across some of the emotion in a song. I have been know to make people cry and not just because I have a terrible voice! ;-) Many comment about the emotionality in my singing... sometimes. Other times I am useless and a song I sang 10 times in the afternoon perfectly falls apart in the evening at a club. The cheat sheet is a great help.

But what helps me most is the attitude of those around me at the clubs I attend. These are warm, caring people, who do not judge me. They give me my turn and allow me my expression. They encourage me and share their knowledge and songs, thier emotions and compassion. My life is richer for it. THAT is what folk is about surely?

Would I charge people to hear me? Certainly not. I am not, nor never will be, good enough. I can only aspire to try and sing well and play correctly. I often fail but am also forgiven. I confess at being almost alarmed at some of the comments I have read. We all started somewhere and we all make mistakes. Some, like me, more than most.

You have given me great food for thought and I will certainly try to 'clean up my act' but try not to condemn those who try their best and make mistakes. Because of them it makes the perfect ones look even better and more polished! ;-)

Sing and let sing... that's folk for you :-)

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM

Mauvepink: try not to condemn those who try their best and make mistakes

Ah - well that's the point. You obviously do try your best - and good on ya - however, many don't try their hardest and it's those wot gets up me nose sometimes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

From: mauvepink - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

"There seems to be some elitism being suggested which occurs on a higher level with some rather than others. I have seen the same thing expressed over people who do not use a capo over others who do. If you cannot play a chord in a key then you are less than useless..."

A capo is a very useful device. I don't use mine that often, but it's great for playing in the "flat" keys. A great deal of guitar music is in the sharp keys G, D, A, or E and it's quite nice to have some variety. I also sometimes have pain in my hands, and when it's bad, a capo can make things easier. The main disadvantage is the loss of some notes and/or possible fingerings, but that's not something that should concern the audience.

There are good reasons for wanting to play something using voicings with open strings. If I wanted that sound in, say F or Bb, I'd use a capo. One could use a different tuning, but I don't see any moral superiority in doing that. Who cares? What counts is the sound that comes out.

Not everybody wants to or can be a virtuoso on the guitar. Sneering at someone for using a capo is just silly, in my opinion, even if it really was just a crutch (which it isn't).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

Well said Mauvepink and Piers Plowman. Exactly. Most of us do the best we can but are not, and never will be, virtuosos. Also,many of us work full time and with the best will in the world get a limited amount of time to practice. We do have other lives. I go to two folk clubs a week and both of them are warm friendly places where people are encouraged to do their best but mistakes are forgiven. It is quite different when we have a paid guest. Of course we expect a certain standard then.


Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 01:57 PM

I was not disparaging capo use. I used that as another example of elitism that sometimes comes out. People who never need a capo looking down on those who do. (I always use a capo myself)

Sorry. I should have been clearer. My intention was to show attitudes often expressed with those of lesser skill though, as you point out, many with great skill use capo too.

Hope that clear up any misunderstanding

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM

Sorry, mauvepink, I understood what you meant. I didn't think you were disparaging the use of the capo. I was just adding my two cents.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

... and me my two penneth

We cannot even agree on monetary units! ;-)   Where will it all end?

hehe

I am glad I I did not offend

I will be out soon to one of my Clubs of choice and just always know it will be a relaxed, cordial affair with good songs and like minded folks

Have a great day/evening/night everyone

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM

John from Kensing.

Glad you found the little tale amusing - I'm not sure i know of any others relevant to this thread, but if I think of them I'll post them.

I do recall a story told by Jez Lowe at a songwriting workshop he ran.

He turned up to do a gig one night and was greeted by one of the organisers, who told him that he could do any of his songs except this one, that one, etc because the residents did those.

Fortunately Jez always sees the funny side of things.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

After singing his famous song 'The First of May' Dave Webber was, ever so gently, once reprimanded by an old lady at a concert in Cornwall, 'My dear, leave Cornish songs for the Cornish!'

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

After you I insist - have the 100th post

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM

"Please Jim Enlighten me re incompetent singing.
You might start with being able to hold a tune and remember the words - not enough, but I'd happily settle for it for a start. When you've got that mastered, then perhaps you might go on to understanding and liking the song you are singing. I'm not asking for virtuoso performances; they will come later.
Speaking personally, I got very tired of feeling embarrass on behalf of would-be singers who made idiots of themselves in front of audiences; patronising a poor singer is doing nobody any favours - help them to be good ones and then give them an audience.
If you are serious about attracting new blood you owe it to the music to present singing at a reasonable standard. A new punter who walks in from the street and hears naff singing takes that impression away with them - that for them is folk music - are you happy with that image?
I totally agree with whoever said that you can't have interpretation from crib-sheets.
Cap'n' suggestion of running through your text in the jacks is an excellent one - and you make some wonderful friends in there.....! but not on stage - please.
If you are going to turn your club into a Freemasons lodge and only give access to the initiated - fine; you are entitled to perform your songs naked while standing in a bowl of custard; if you are a public club - you owe it to the music to set a standard - and to yourself. Nobody but a sado-masochist likes bad singing, from themselves or their fellow performers.
Singing can be fun - even if it's belting out Yellow Submarine five minutes before closing time - but for lasting pleasure and satsfaction you can't beat making a song work, knowing you've made a song work, and knowing that your audience knows you've made a song work.
Not unlike The Virgin Queen who said she had Calais carved on her heart; I have something MacColl once said in an interview back in 1980.

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

I've just got the joke, Nick.

The thread is about manners!

A bit slow on the uptake, sorry!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

This is honestly a true story and I'm not making it up.

We went to a folk club, just after the "Herald of Free Enterprise" ferry disaster, which will give you an idea how long ago it was.

We were a bit late and when we came in there was a bloke at the front dressed in yellow oilskins, sou'wester and wellies. He was obviously determined to be the first to write a song on the subject, and had just finished his intro and then began the song:-

"Oh, the Herald of Free Enterprise, she sail-ed on the sea..."

It went on for a bit, but was OK.

In the half-time break, he collared us in the corridor and asked "did you like my song?". We made encouraging noises and he then went on to explain how there was an episode in the disaster, when a young girl was assumed to be drowned, but was later found to have been washed up safe and alive some way from the ship.

He explained to us that this had "ruined his song" and he'd had to re-write some of the verses.

He didn't actually go as far as to say "they should have thrown her back in!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM

The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
Jim Carroll.
EVERYONE, PLEASE TAKE NOTE.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM

Jim's last post has it all - in one sentence

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rumncoke
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM

When I found my memory going I wrote down as many of the songs in my repertoire as I could - I still find one or two to add from time to time even though I have over 300 now. I must admit that I now look for versions on line to jog my memory.

These days I can usually remember the chords, as long as I don't try to sing at the same time, but I usually forget either one whole verse or mix up the first and last halves of two or more, or what is worse, I think there is another verse and try to remember it, but there isn't one - so I use my book.

I have had to rewrite it recently - larger - but as long as I can get a glimpse of it from time to time I can cope fairly well.

It has knocked my confidence, as at one time I could steal anybody's song just hearing it once, so I don't go out of my way to sing in folk clubs - but I can't be the only person who needs to compensate for the effects of getting older.

If someone does produce a song book or sheet - perhaps waiting to see just how good they are would be the kindest thing, rather than instantly giving sighs and other signs of exasperation.

Anne

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:43 PM

"Don't try and talk to me while I'm trying to listen!!!"
Here here!
That realy is most annoying.

I got sneered at for my music stand(trying to play some very basic chords for someone who was realy desperate)By a realy good performer who had very copious amounts of "wall paper" stuck on his guitar.
I was a bit suprised but then I dont have the experience of thirty/fourty/fifty? years of experience like some of you.
I agree that it is better to know your song and the resultant performance does seem better.
But what if I bloody forget??????
Arrrrgh!
Just playing at home is probably best bet if you are not a "Pro " slummin or networkin for gigs.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:34 PM

What I like about singing unaccompanied is - well, the main thing I like about it is that it doesn't involve playing an instrument I can't play. But one of the other things I like about it is that you can't just get up and bash it out - without the guitar for safety-net, a poor performance sounds really poor. I've certainly heard far fewer ho-hum performances from unaccompanied singers than from guitarists - some are good, some are bad, but very few are mediocre.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:32 PM

Aaaaah SHOOT!

I probably should not start this, not now, because I am in seriously grumpy mode, been a hard day, got in from lecturing (now that's a form of performance skill) at past 11 pm and been at the VaT to relax.

I have not had the pleasure of hearing you Jim sing, and I don't claim to be better than you Cap'n - I leave it to those here who often hear me sing and play to pass inertial judgment (mostly without safety nets) but   (rant on) FARDLES how conceited can you get?

There is ALWAYS someone better than you and the point of folk is that they don't turn their nose up at you if you can only do something so long as you can and do do something. Before you start laying down the law about how good people have to be - go and get your worst enemy, not your best friend, to compare you with the standards. Go find yourself on Youtube and see if you wince.

Now Dick - can you sing as well as Martin Carthy? Or Peter Bellamy? Or Ian Bruce? Or the late Dave Bryant of these environs? Or the Barden of England?

Or play guitar like Martin Simpson (actually he's a murderous deliverer of a traditional song too) or Martin again, or Dave Reay the killer blind guitarist form Kent - or my old mate Andy/Geoff/who is he this week? Or Brian Rodgers of No Worries (who was here for a while until some politoco got at him for taking a hoilday in Cyprus, and he left, to our loss).

Can you squeeze like the God Kirkpatrick, or the bloke from up north, what was his name, was it Atterson or Anderson or was there one of each?

Can you work and command an audience like - to take a semipro - the late Pete Hicks of this peninsular?

No matter how good we are, there is always someone better and this time you have both delivered yourself like a braggart and succeeded in condemning a whole bunch of acceptable performers - the current bearers of most folkmusic - as being not good enough for you.

Great. Till you get to the big time - like our occasional guest elizaC - you are not good enough for me.

Rant off.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:07 PM

Hear, hear!!

Perhaps one day YOU'LL find yourself resorting to 'cheat sheets' too, Dick, in order to jog YOUR ageing memory - or will you then decide it's time to give up up? Others prefer to carry on giving good performances with or without 'safety nets' So until that time - please bear with others a little more graciously.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

well i can appreciate some people have real difficulty in learning songs. and if they need crib sheets fair enough - no one would want their voices to be stilled, I hope.

But breathes there a soul so dull, who doesn't give an inward sigh of grief when he hears the words - I wrote this, this afternoon and I might get it wrong; or I haven't sung this one for twenty years but I was thinking when I was driving here, I' d like to sing it tonite its just the words and tune I've forgotten: and that old chestnut - I just got my guitar out after twenty years this afternoon, so I AM sorry if its not in tune, but I don't pretend to be an expert; or I got these uillean pipes off e bay last week - look they're new in the box and they're dead easy.......

I mean seriously sometimes you can feel the whole room mentally reaching for the machine guns. The Americans are so brave letting everyone have access to firearms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:52 AM

From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

"I just got my guitar out after twenty years this afternoon, so I AM sorry if its not in tune [...]"

Oh, no! I say, "I can't understand it, I only tuned it last week!" You mean, it's not original?!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:40 AM

Richard,
It's not really about being as good as anybody- it's about making a reasonable attempt at a song and making it work. When I was singing, if that happened I went home happy (and hoped that at least one of the audience did likewise).
When I started to sing it was usually on CND marches or such like; some people who heard me were kind enough to encouraged me and it became my major interest. I worked at my songs and became a little better; I was invited to perform regularly, till eventually I was asked to join The Critics Group. I was never more than a competent singer but I came to value and respect the songs enough to realise that the harder you worked at them the better they got - and above all - THE SONGS WERE WORTH THE EFFORT.
In the seventies I found my interests expanding into other fields of folk music so I wasn't putting in the time - my singing deteriorated and I wasn't prepared to sing in public on automatic pilot, so I stopped (basically because I stopped enjoying it). Nowadays, if I am pressed to sing (it happens a lot over here) I will fall back on the two or three songs I constantly sing about the house because I know I won't make a complete hames of them; I seldom enjoy singing them because, as much as I still like them, I no longer connect with them - I don't see the pictures any more.
For me, it can never be about competing with other singers, nor can it be about having an audience - it has to be about that beautiful moment when the song takes over - when it becomes part of you, and when you become part of it, that has to be the objective of a singer or they become little more than clever parrots reciting words they don't understand.
I have said a hundred times before - ANYBODY (unless they have a physical problem) IS CAPABLE OF BEING A GOOD SINGER. In forty plus years of involvement, at least twenty of those spent involved in singing workshops, I have never met anybody who is genuinely 'tone deaf'. True, some have to work harder than others, BUT ALMOST ANYBODY CAN SING if they work at it.
If in the end someone finds they are 'tone-deaf', isn't it a little bizarre to try to sing publicly - rather like that wonderfully tasteless Monty Python sketch about the one-legged actor auditioning for the role of Tarzan.
I believe the secret (no secret really) lies in the work, putting in the time, whether you do it on your own or with others.
Sticking non-singing singers in front of an audience like so many 'Florence Foster Jenkins' is not the way to do it - that's cruel - to the singer, to the listener, to the song and to the tradition.
MacColl used to talk about the feeling of 'having the right to be there because you knew that you had something to say' - that's when you are ready and that's when you start to sing well.
Crib sheets
There are ways of dealing with a flagging memory, but again I believe that has to be offstage, not in public. The minute I see somebody using one I automatically think "they're not feeling the song; they're reading it" and I ceased to be convinced - even if it's word and note perfect.
One of the simplest ways of dealing with a song you think you might forget is to rehearse it at double speed (and not to sing it until you get it word perfect that way).
Another is to 'tell' the song as a story using your own words so that you become totally immersed in it as a plot rather than a text.
I watched MacColl as he got old and began forgetting the words, but he was so steeped in the language of the songs he was singing that he always managed an on-the-spot repair repair so only those who knew his singing intimately noticed.
Surely it has to be about singing the song and not the words (I think the Cap'n already said that).
It may well be that we become too old to do what we want to do, Joe Heaney once told us rather plaintively that "It now takes me all night to do what I used to do all night". Some of the source singers we met were in their eighties, and even nineties and, while they might not remember what they had for breakfast that day, they could give us songs that they hadn't sung for half a century (sometimes they had to work on them, sometimes, like MacColl, they patched them up as they went along - but they eventually got there).
For me, isn't it about being a singer (an interpreter of songs) rather than a 'performer' or rememberer of songs?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:06 AM

Personally I love thst line about... I don't believe in electronic tuners!

As though they're an abstract concept like god and require a belief system to sustain them.

Or, I got this from a book ....(yeh go on! blame it on the book!)

Or the Newcastle oyster catchers/South Wales steel workers/miners of South Devon - they all used a wodger at work. So when I sing, 'Haul away on me Wodger lads.....!'

Or, I've had a cold all this week and lost me voice something shocking, so I can't 'really' sing...... (ah yes! one thinks, but its 'reality' we are involved in tonight!)

Or this is my son Edgar who has been for guitar lessons and he's going to sing and play for us, 'Cocaine Blues'.

Its that sort of mismatch of material that really grabs you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:22 AM

Capos? A crutch for poor players? Are there really people around who think that? Lorks! Things are even worse than I thought.

In classical music, yes - blues, rock and jazz, perhaps - but there's an entire style of guitar playing (which intersects intimately with 'modern roots music') in which the use of a capo is as essential as the use of a bow to a fiddle player. (You can play the violin without, but you're not going to make the most of the instrument). Capos have been around since the invention of the guitar (Some old ones were secured through holes drilled through the neck)!

It's frequently not physically possible to make the noises you want, with the sound you want, in the key you want without a capo. You might as well suggest that a keyboard player is cheating if he uses the black keys!

Staggered of Leeds.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LJW - at work
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:32 AM

Nice one Tom - the acoustic guitar is an amazing instrument made even more versatile with use of a capo. A friend of mine is a fantastic guitarist who NEVER uses one because he can play anything in any key anywhere up the fretboard to the last fret - but he can't touch those beautiful sounds and colours you can reach when using one. There are many examples, but the playing of Alan Taylor comes to mind - no way could my friend get his sound.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:50 AM

"he can play anything in any key anywhere up the fretboard to the last fret" - only, as you correctly say, actually he can't - unless he has six fingers on his left hand. I guess you could manage some open tuning shapes over a permanent barre, for example, but the drone strings would never ring the way they are intended to do without a fixed capo.

I trained in classical guitar and frequently use the teenage frets - but I only do a handful of songs without a capo - and that's solo where I have the freedom to choose. If you play with another instrument that has it's own range issues - specially any tune-leading sonophone like fiddle or banjo, or most squeezeboxes - where cross fingering is crucial to the sound feel, you'd be a fool not to embrace the capo.

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Simon G
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:18 AM

We went to the Room at the Top folk club last night for a fantastic evening, which welcomed all comers. As Mark Dowding said earlier in the thread we did have a couple of people, who couldn't read, come in during a song despite his very legible sign on the door.

A very well behaved audience, without the need for Mark do resort to his whip to bring them to order. It was a treat to hear people in such silence.

There was all sorts of performances, but all were enjoyable (mine might not have been, but I wasn't listening). I got the impression from everyone that they hadn't put their all into the performance.

One guy with a lovely tenor voice and a sweet guitar picking style performed two songs, he has only been singing regularly since March, so much potential you just know he is going to get better and better. It took him at least a couple of years to work up the courage to sing, because of attitudes like those exhibited by some on this thread.

Many people need lots of encouragement, not only to start singing but to continue working at it. People like Mark Dowding and Joan Blackburn to name but two locally are great at this, but we all need to take some responsibility for encouraging our fellow performers.

Artificial rules about paper, capos etc simply end up being hurdles for someone - everytime you get on you high horse someone takes a step back, someone with potential take it no further and we all loose.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

Well Simon, if you saw and heard some of the absolout dross that we sometimes get at our club, you may think it worth the risk of losing a potential good performer. I am all for encouraging people with even the slightest amount of potential, but some folk are clearly not cut out for it and need to be jumped on from a very great hight.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM

Well said Simon G. I totally agree.

In the short time I have been on the folk scene I have seen many people grow in confidence and ability because the clubs they attend have open attitudes and respect for all. I am thankful not to have seen more than a couple of Prima Donna's (or should that be Prima Dona's as they were male?) in that time. These men could sing, sure, without a crib sheet, but there was nothing in their voice that suggested feeling or emotion. They were 'delivering' a set of words, parrot fashion, as they had obviously done hundreds of times before. I was not touching at all though the subject matter should have been.

Converse to that I have heard many a good song delivered by somone reading off a crib sheet who have captured the emotion of the words. I cannot subscribe to the idea that singing off a crib sheet kills the message, or dulls the sense, as I have witnessed great songs sung by great singers... but with crib sheet.

Of course it is wonderful when you get someone who knows the words, their instrument, and can sing flawlessly. But I refuse to consider anyone as doing less than that as being some kind of sub-species. I was once at an opera work-shop, with Sherrill Milnes (a great Verdian baritone), when he came out with a comment I have always tried to remember. "Sing the song like it is the first time you have given those words to the person you are saying them to" and I try to do that even now (even with a crib sheet, or cheat sheet as I call it). In other words, don't go parrot fashion with a song. Sing it always the first time and mean it. The emotion will be built in.

Surely, the person who is singing their song off a crib sheet is quite capable of still showing emotion. They may be concentrating on the words or the music, and that may detract on occasion, but such musical nudity - singing there in front of peers - deserves our respect as they are showing all they have to give at that moment.

It is easy to snigger and denigrate someone of lesser skill. But remember we are all lesser skilled than others in our midst. Should they then snigger at us? What has been an amazing thing for me to see is how many good singers - and pro artists - show full respect to their lesser admirers and how many are more than willing to give tips and join in with helping. Many should take a leaf from their book.

Another essay. I apologise. I am just grateful I obviously attend the right kind of clubs with the right kind of folks because, without their encouragement and support, I would be far lesser a whole person than I am. I owe a lot to Folk and folks in it.

I'll shush ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM

So who makes this distinction of who is cut out for it and who is not and 'need to be jumped on'? Who do you see as entitled do this 'jumping on', Silas? Most people who actually DO have potential, as already said, nearly everyone can improve. Many new singers who have experienced harsh, uncalled for criticism, whether it is direct or indirect, especially if the individually concerned is of an even remotely sensitive nature have been put off from ever singing again in public. IMHO a great pity.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM

I thought a capo was an essential part of the guitarists' armoury - I mean how else do you shut up melodeon players who want to join in with your sensitive songs. Capo on the first fret and play in Ab - sorted!

Simon - The guy you referred to said to me that he had been told not to play at one club! (he didn't say which one) Since he's been coming to our club he's had all sorts of encouragement from people who give him tips on the guitar or his performance style and he's really come on. OK ocassionally he trips up as do we all but you get back on the saddle and carry on. Actually last night I personally thought everybody raised their game a bit perhaps because we had a guest on (Bryony - excellent) which we don't normally do at our place so maybe it gave people incentive to put more into it.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

I've not been to a 'folk club' before and reading this thread they sound quite scary places....like x-factor for folk music.
And so many rules. :O very daunting.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM

Hi Mark,

What do you suggest we melodeon players can do to stop guitarists joining in with the wrong rhythm(Grin)?

For that matter, what do you guitarists do about the piano accordions? Or the man with the bag of whistles?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:55 AM

OK, we had an issue some months ago. A certain person who had been attending our club (Its a session club really - nothing too formal)decided he was going to learn to play the guitar and sing. He managed to learn a few chords and cribbed loads of lyrics from the internet and proceeded to regale us with his reditions of some of his favourite songs. He was trying to run before he could walk, which is OK, many people do this and eventually manage, with help, to get there. This guy had a really poor voice, his timing depended on how difficult the chord change was. People did try to help him, one guy offered to pop round his house and run through a couple of songs with him. He would not accept any help or take on board any crittisisms.
It was bad enough when he was doing one or two songs per night, but he started jumping in at every lul in the evening and was doing up to NINE songs in an evening. Despite the fact that when he started singing people went to the bar, bog or out for a fag and when he finished there was little or very scant aplause, it was like water off a ducks back - good performers stopped coming, people who poped in as a one off heard him and never came back. Eventually, the landlord of the pub banned him form singing. Sad, but there you are.

I play and I sing at home, I don't think my voice is too bad, but I would not like to inflict it on others - some people just can't do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM

Manitas - Wire cutters, a sharp knife and a welding torch are all useful tools when faced with those problems!

Seriously though how many people have arranged tunes or songs with "interesting" chord patterns only to have the effect ruined by the three chord trick strummers who insist on joining in anything that's being played.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:02 AM

Capos have two uses. One is for getting into either Ab or F#, the 6 black notes soon sort out all but the best squeezers and tootlers. But the other is for the sound palette. I doubt if anyone could do some of the songs I use a partial capo for, anything like the way I do them (you might not like it but that's a different issue) in the keys I do them, without a partial capo. It's not because I'm brilliant - I'm not, it's the capos.

Sneering at them is stupid.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: treewind
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

Look, lets get this "words on paper" thing straight...

There is a HUGE difference between:
(1) learning a song (really learning it) and taking a crib sheet in case you forget the words,
and
(2) not learning a song at all, and reading it all, - no question of forgetting the words because you've never learned them in the first place.

It's the same with all other technique whether playing an instrument or singing. We don't all have the same abilities or skills but we do owe it to our audience to spend some time at home practicing what we do to the best (or something approaching it) of OUR ability.

It's elitist to put down somebody who's basically not very talented but is making an effort, and IMO it's quite right to chastise someone who quite clearly can't be arsed to practice or learn anything and is wasting everyone's time.

Even the most musically illiterate audience member can tell the difference. It's not about how good you are, it's about how much effort you make.

(I think I posted something like this earlier, but it didn't seem to stick)
Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:42 AM

So do we/would we ban the Coppers (Young or Old...I'm being rhetorical here)for using the famous Book?...:-)

Baz

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM

Please don't let put you off Guest LTD. Most folk clubs are really warm, friendly and supportive.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

he started jumping in at every lul in the evening and was doing up to NINE songs in an evening

Perhaps if this starts happening the "jump in when ready" approach needs to be tempered by a bit of firm-but-fair MCing. JIWR is brilliant when it works - I love the flow of song from one voice to the next - but I don't think "have you got one for us, Silas?" disrupts the flow or harshes the buzz excessively. Or "have you got another one for us, Pip?" That works very well, I find.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mattkeen
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

Surely its about context

Be equal let everybody have a go IN A SINGAROUND OR SESSION

Good and capable performers in performances though


Discrete back up sheet is ok for a while providing the performance is good

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:51 AM

Hi
LDT shouldn't you be practicing concertina or are you using a time machine?

Whilst I personally prefer not to use a'crib' sheet I do have a problem playing concertina without having 'dots' -guitar -no problem, words-not too much of a problem tho' i have been known to 're-write' a song as the words 'disappear' from memory and 'new' ones 'appear'. I do wonder why it is acceptable for orchestras to use music, for choirs to use music, for opera (recital) singers to use music but not acceptable for 'amateur' performers in folk music to do the same. Are we saying that these professional performers can't be good enough because they use music? Is it just in folk music?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:52 AM

No problem withb people who site read music - different thing altogether.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

"LDT shouldn't you be practicing concertina or are you using a time machine?"
actually I should be working 'sussh' ;) (your from c.net I'm guessing)

I can't remember music off by heart...any tips for how to? I've tried the old trick of associating the thing you want to remember with a familiar object...but its not working for notes. I have a hard enough time playing the right thing with it written down in front of me, my fingers seem to have a different idea to my brain.

I don't think I could perform in public....I get nervous if I even think someone is listening.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM

Hi LDT yes
If I had any tips I wouldn't have the problem :-) but it really only applies to concertina. does anyone else have a 'selective' memory for just one aspect of music?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:26 AM

From: GUEST,LDT - PM
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

"I can't remember music off by heart...any tips for how to?"

Measure by measure. Repeat a measure until you can play it without looking at the music (assuming you're learning from music). Then learn the next one the same way. Then try to play both together, referring back to the music until you can do it without looking. Continue memorizing small segments and combining them into larger ones. It requires lots of repetition. It will probably take a couple of days and when you go back to it, you will find that you've forgotten a lot of what you could do, but it will be easier to learn it the second time.

Some people find visualization helpful. I don't particularly like this technique and never use it for memorizing music.

Really, what I find helps the most is the ability to play by ear and basic knowledge of harmony. That way, it's not really necessary to memorize something perfectly, since one eventually comes to "just know" what's coming next. It's taken me a long time and I'm far from perfect, but I have noticed a big improvement in my ability to do this recently. I find that it makes it much easier to figure out songs, too.

Many songs have simple harmonies, too. If you can "feel" when a tonic, sub-dominant or dominant is coming, you don't need to sit down and memorize the song. I find I'm sometimes able to do this when playing without too many mistakes, but I need to be playing; I can't do it without a guitar. Perhaps that will come.

Do you have trouble whistling a melody? Most people, even non-musicians, don't. The trick is to be able to do that on one's instrument. I wish someone had told me this when I was a child taking music lessons. If you've got the melody, the chords are usually (but not always) a piece of cake.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

"Do you have trouble whistling a melody?."
Yep. I even have trouble whistling! lol! (usually I get a long whistle so high only dogs can hear it.) And don't suggest humming or singing either...I can't hold a tune to save my life.
;)

I am unfortunately not naturally musical....and envy those who take to it naturally. For me its a lot of hard work and concentration.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

Thanks for the suggestions though. I think I may be a lost cause...and won't be inflicting my poor attempts on anyone except on youtube.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

Over the past couple of years I have had some of the most enjoyable times of my life playing music and singing and I owe a huge debt to the people who have encouraged and put up with my improving efforts over the last 6 years. I think that had I been faced with the attitudes of some of the people on this thread then I would probably not have had the resilience to have kept trying because I spent the best part of forty-eight years not playing in front of people. Earlier this year I sang at a beer festival in front of a few hundred people and there is no way in the world I would have - or could have - done that five years ago.

But from some of the comments of people on this thread I think I'd have been weedkillered out of existence before my shoots were much out of the ground so that a fully grown shrub could have been substituted - either for their instant gratification or for the sake of quality. Thank f*** I didn't meet them at the wrong time.

So on a positive note I thank the people who put up with my faltering efforts at starting to sing, my acute shyness and the times when I've died in the friendliest of surroundings much to my chagrin and no doubt the listeners' frustration and embarrassment.

So - because it's another side of good manners - let me give out some thanks to a few people who come to mind: my local friends and visitors to Flaxton (formerly the Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington); Ossonflags; Gedpipes; Linda Kelly and Hazel of Hissyfit; lots of folk in Beverley; Mark Kane; all the people I've sat in sessions with from Sidmouth to the Isle of Arran who hopefully have enjoyed some of the things I have played and that we've shared with each other. Just a few of the people who have been a real encouragement and opened a load of doors and avenues.

And to those of you who would discourage people from contributing - bollocks to you.

From my end I practice hard and learn more and reckon I get better as I play with better people. Hopefully in turn we encourage people in the weekly gathering we organise (?!) to get involved if they want to and go out of our way to make it easy for people to feel at home rather than exclusive and up our own arses. Personally I get a huge buzz out of having seen people I know go from non-participators to (in some cases) solo performers at folk festivals within a two year period. They work very hard at what they do I know but if the door had been slammed shut in their face before they had hardly begun then I don't think they would have done that. And for those who will never get to that level it is as satisfying to see that they have battled against all sorts of stuff and done as well as they could.

But I do share some of the frustrations voiced here (and, yes, there are people I race for the loo as their turn approaches) :- of people who never get any better (but I guess that's their choice) who feel they have reached their best even if others know they haven't; of people whose ego and self confidence far outweighs their talent (and there are a LOT of them out there); of people who impose their view of a song or a tune on others rather than use their ears and listen to the singer or soloist; people who can't play in time; people who spoil other people's music by imposing their own; narrow minded bigots and those who 'know what is right and what is the only way to do things' etc

When some friends and I played recently at a hall in a local village to a group of people they commented afterwards how they noticed how many times various of us would close their eyes as they sang and wondered why. What is perhaps curious about this is that a good half of the people that evening had the words written out 'just in case'. I suppose it comes down to that strange phenomenon of see through eyelids or perhaps some of us just like a safety net there in case we should fall.

I enjoy singing and playing in singarounds and sessions but doubt that I will ever get booked as a solo act in a folk club (so as people know where I'm coming from I sound roughly like this - it's recorded in my car during lunchtime at work as I wanted to sing it at our singaround so it's full of mistakes and only the third time I'd sung it and the guitar is very basic and and ... all the usual excuses :)!!) but I sing and play in a couple of groups and am happy in that environment and people seem to like us because they invite us back (we do have a mighty good lead singer though!). But I must be like hundreds or thousands of others who do the same and just enjoy doing it for the fun of it all; for the social bit of it all; for the joy of making music TOGETHER rather than apart; for the hope of improvement; for how happy it makes me. For me that is also something about what folk music should be about (though I totally realise it isn't a definition of it lest we bounce off at a tangent into oblivion)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:41 AM

You won't hear the applause just playing on Youtube.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

From: GUEST,LDT - PM

"'Do you have trouble whistling a melody?.'
Yep. I even have trouble whistling! lol! (usually I get a long whistle so high only dogs can hear it.) And don't suggest humming or singing either...I can't hold a tune to save my life.
;)

I am unfortunately not naturally musical....and envy those who take to it naturally. For me its a lot of hard work and concentration."

Okay, so that might not be the right approach. However, what I first wrote still applies. The way to memorize _anything_ is frequent repetition.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

Hi Nick, just listned to your link - very nice indeed, I could listen to singing like that all night - really.

If you have a novice who is prepared to put a bit of effort in and practice and have some idea of where he is trying to get, he would have my support and the support of most people I know. Its the lazy bastards who just about manage to string three chords together, have a looseleaf binder with 100 or more songs in that they don't know and have probably never played who set out to 'entertain' us. They never practice any song, they can't sing in tune, their timing is all over the place.

Life is too short to be bothering with shit like that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:17 AM

I've read the thread so far and am currently cogitating on my biggest frustration with a regular folk club I go to.

said club is quite small - 10 or so 'regulars', another 20 or so 'occasionals', and once in a blue moon everybody turns up at once. It's a far more fun evening when there are more people there - more voices to join in the choruses, a bigger variety of material... but when it's quiet it gets dominated by one of the regulars who seems to do most of the things listed above as pet hates - she reads off the words, stumbling and forgetting the tune as she goes, does songs that she happily announces she's only just found (or written) and then stops half way through... I'm sure you can imagine.

Now, we're a friendly club. Nobody has actually said anything bad to her (that I'm aware of) about her performances and we all listen carefully, try and join in the places she wants us to join in, and clap, politely if not enthusiastically. Various of the people who know her fairly well have, I think, made gentle supportive suggestions along the way, about type of material or delivery or whatever, and over the 5 years or so she's been coming a long she has improved a little tiny bit, and seems to really enjoy herself. She starts fewer songs, proportionally, than any of the other regulars, which is I think because she's self aware enough to realise that the applause for her stuff is sometimes a bit... polite shall I say.

Now, I don't have a problem with her coming and I want to be supportive... but I do worry that she puts other people off coming. The club is only just sustaining itself in terms of attendance, and we'd love there to be more regulars who are strong singers, so that every time it could be like the fun nights when all the regulars and occasionals turn up at once. But if someone new turns up and their first impression is that they'd have to sit and listen to bad songs done badly... they may well not come back. I do know quite a few local folkies who only turn up *very* occasionally and I know that in some cases it is precisely because of this woman. So the club suffers for the sake of being nice to one person.

so what do we do? unless she changes her attitude to the whole thing, I don't see her having got any better in the *next* five years either - maybe a tiny bit, but she's got a long way to go. The club might have folded by then for lack of numbers... or we bite the bullet and are a bit more bluntly honest with her, which might upset her and she might stop coming, which would probably be better for the club, although we'd all feel like horrible people – and I get the feeling half the people on this thread would condemn us for being cruel & unsupportive. Or am I wrong?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

"If you have a novice who is prepared to put a bit of effort in and practice and have some idea of where he is trying to get, he would have my support and the support of most people I know. Its the lazy bastards who just about manage to string three chords together, have a looseleaf binder with 100 or more songs in that they don't know and have probably never played who set out to 'entertain' us. They never practice any song, they can't sing in tune, their timing is all over the place."

Silas, those words should be pasted up on the walls of every folk club in the land!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:22 AM

Nick - you would have survived because you are prepared to put the effort in and you care.

The rest of this post would have been what Silas just said but longer :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

because I have a different opinion,I am subjected to a personal attack from Richard Bridge.
right Richard Bridge here are some facts,I have ben professional for 35 years, made 4 cds ,5 lps,one of which Martin Carthy played guitar,one of which A Concertina Compilation,featured John Kirkpatrick.
neither of these two would associate with me on a recording if they did not rate me.
Dave Bryant regularly booked me at clubs he ran.
Iwas gigging before Eliza[that doesnt mean I am any better,just different],but I have had long experience,so I am reasonably well qualified to talk about changes in folk clubs over 40 years.
both you and Amber have completely over reacted to my opinion,at what point have I been ungracious?
as Jim Carroll says its not about being better than someone,its about feeling at ease with songs so that youcan perform them well.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Drowning Fish
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:39 PM

Our local club is probably a bit different in it's attitude to audience noise. As long as it's kept to a decent level nobody minds. Many people come to the club who would not step over the threshold if it had a 'silence when the artist is performing' policy. This isn't to say that sometimes you can hear a pin drop in the place! I've been a regular for the last couple of years and prefer the relaxed atmosphere that exists, rather than the way clubs were in the late 70's and 80's where everyone sat so silently it was almost funerial. Harvey Andrews loved it! Anyone who so much as whispered to the person next to them was withered by the glare of 'The Organiser'. Give me real people, real ale and a vibrant folk club anyday. All performers of all abilities and musical skills are encouraged and enjoyed at our club and long may it continue!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM

What do you suggest we melodeon players can do to stop guitarists joining in with the wrong rhythm(Grin)?

For that matter, what do you guitarists do about the piano accordions? Or the man with the bag of whistles?

Mumblin' Len's advice. Use the singing cowboys's tequnique(Roy Rogers?) in Son of Paleface. Rifle inside the guitar.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

in one of my earlier posts,I stated clearly,that we all make mistakes.everbody [ myself included occassionally forgets words]ElvisPresley forgot are you lonesome tonight,but no one cared because Presley handled it right.
that is what performing is about.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

No, captain, you got attacked because you made some very conceited remarks.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

"I think flicking through folders of words to decide what you're going to sing next when others are doing their bit can be a bit offputting."

Guilty as charged. Panic makes me rifle through my little binder o'songs even though I typically put a number of planned songs in the front, just so I won't do this. And yes I need the words because brain will freeze in mid song.   I do get fearful through out the session that maybe I don't know a song well enough or feel the mood isn't right for what I previously selected. I try to do my searches for another song on the sly though not always successful.

As to noise and talking and crisp munching, though I typically pay attention to performers, I like it kind of boisterous when it comes to my turn (only in sing around sessions - no floor spots for me). The busier and noisier it is the less inclined I am to panic. I feel kind of hidden in the crowd and that lends me confidence. I tend to really belt out in that "safe" environment.

Quite daunting though, when the room shuts up and people start filtering in from other rooms and from outside the pub once I start singing. This is precisely when I find I need the words.   

Moral of the story? Please go easy on us toddler and/or doddering folkies. We are learning and/or fogetting how to behave in folk settings.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

The question remains unanswered as far as I'm concerned.
Should there be a standard beneath which a club does not drop? - it really doesn't get any more complicated than that.
I wonder how a local amateur dramatic or light opera society would react to somebody knocking on their door demanding a part in their latest production - it seems acceptable behaviour at folk clubs, judging by some of the responses here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

"Over the past couple of years I have had some of the most enjoyable times of my life playing music and singing and I owe a huge debt to the people who have encouraged and put up with my improving efforts over the last 6 years. I think that had I been faced with the attitudes of some of the people on this thread then I would probably not have had the resilience to have kept trying because I spent the best part of forty-eight years not playing in front of people. Earlier this year I sang at a beer festival in front of a few hundred people and there is no way in the world I would have - or could have - done that five years ago."
And having experienced that from others having the generousity to extend the same kindness and encouragemnet to others.
Thank the big capo in the sky there are more people around like Nick
than there are the others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:55 PM

I saw Les Barker reading from a book, He didn't half make it sound good!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

It seems very clear to me that there are different sorts of folk clubs - those who welcome performers of all standards and are ready to give encouragement, support and help when needed - then those which insist on a standard which many can never reach,although not through the want of trying.For heavens sake whats wrong with giving EVERYONE who is keen enough to attend a song or two if they want - with or without the words, which so many catters are saying they find helpful? I don't mean we don't want to encourage people to develop and improve as singers but we are not talking concerts here!

Yer pays yer money and yer makes yer choice!

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

RichardBridge,please show what these conceited remarks were.here are my posts.
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM

The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
Jim Carroll.
EVERYONE, PLEASE TAKE NOTE.
If you are serious about encouraging new singers run a workshop.[jim carroll].
yes,and perhaps instrument workshops too.
The sign of a good club [imo]is among other things good organisation,it is perfectly possible and can be acceptable if a weak singer,is followed by a good singer or a resident,so this is the reponsibilty of the organiser or mc.
in this way singers who may or may have potential[but need help] can be encouraged,and sandwiched between good performers,making it more acceptable for the paying public.
Bad Manners,does come in all shapes and sizes,it is the responsibility of the organiser,to have a decent mc,so that everyone gets a proper introduction,and gets the guests name correct[it happens more frequently than one thinks]
some while ago,I was guesting at a folk festival.and the MC[a professional performer himself,introduced me ;now we have Dick Miles,what sort of a bloody introduction is that.
this MC was paid to be at that festival,whether he likes the performer or not,he is paid to present and introduce people properly,this involves at the very least,stating what the performer does [plays concertina sings traditional songs is over here on tour from Ireland etc etc]and convincing the audience that the person is good.
3.From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM
4 .Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

running workshops is good but running workshops successfully requires skill and diplomacy and tact.
firstly singers should not be told they must sing in a certain way[stylistically],
workshops should concentrate upon improving technique,suggestions can be made,directing the singer to recordings of differing singers that the person might benefit from listening to.,and then let the person chhose their own direction,suggestions can be made that a singer might be more suited to singing shanties or whatever,but that is about as far as you should go.
the singer has to make their own decisions,telling people what to/ or how to sing will often be counter productive and is bad manners.
it is also bad manners,to say to a performer while they are on stage: we dont allow political songs here,or you must only sing songs from your own culture or in your own accent[ Ibelieve this is what happened to Lisa Turner,a fine blues singer at the ballad and blues club,or was it Maccoll/Seegers singers club].
A club may have rules,but the time to sort that out is not on stage,but during the break or afterward

Songs should be performed without any crutches.
if a performer forgets the words,they should keep cool, ad lib,and/or carry on to the next verse,that is what performing is all about,
5.Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

,when I started as a floor singer 1971,the competition was tough,nobody ever sang songs with words in front of them.
I can remember going out to the toilet to run through words ,to make sure I had it right,if you werent any good you didnt get a chance to sing the next week,if a performer forgot a word they carried on,we had to learn how to perform,as we were doing it,and that[ imo] is the only way.
I experienced all those things as a newbie performer,but I got up and did it,I practised a lot before I went on,if i played a wrong chord aor sang a wrong word [I let it go ,and made sure I got the next verse right].
making a mistake can happen to anyone,the most important thing is to learn to feel at ease,whilst performing,[this is what the alexander technique is about],throw away your word sheets,if you make a mistake,make it up or make a joke.,carry on,nerves have to be conquered.
on the other hand Iwould never criticise anyone in a club if they were singing with words [if I was guesting,or whatever],Iam not that bad mannered,I am just stating my opinion
those are my posts to date Richard Bridge,what the fuck are you on about,you may be having a bad day,but you want to get your facts right,what is conceited in those posts.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

>>I wonder how a local amateur dramatic or light opera society would react to somebody knocking on their door demanding a part in their latest production - it seems acceptable behaviour at folk clubs, judging by some of the responses here.

My experience of amateur dramatics is very much that people come along with a wide spectrum of talent and are usually found a spot somewhere within a production which echoes that talent. Much like folk clubs though they rarely DEMAND (your words) but ask.

Where things perhaps differ is that in some folk places the people who run things seem to have no mechanism for dealing with people who have a surfeit of confidence and/or a dearth of talent. Places that are clear about what the are trying to do (whatever that might be) rarely seem to stumble at that minor hurdle, and my experience seem to deal with it quite easily.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

I urge everyone to go back and read 'Treewind's wise words of 21st October, 7:31 am. To quote him:

"It's not about how good you are, it's about how much effort you make."

Exactly!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:10 PM

If you can't see the conceit, the only reply I could make would appear rude, and as yet you have not quite driven me to that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Marje
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM

In many of the posts above, there's an assumption that the inept and badly prepared singers are new, inexperienced performers who would appreciate an older singer's advice, or would be glad of a workshop to hone their skills. But in my experience it's often the other way about - the occasional new, younger singer will often be very good, or at least appear to be making an effort, whereas the worst offenders are older members who've been at it for years and are not getting any better, learning new songs, or even trying to improve. The club could put on a singers' workshop but they wouldn't be interested in attending.
As Shimrod has said above, it's laziness that's at the root of it, and I don't really know what clubs should be doing to address this.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:44 PM

NO I cant,I am stating my experiences,these include running several folk clubs,and having been professional for 30 plus years.,
these are facts,they have nothing to do with my ability as a performer,now I would appreciate it if you stopped attacking me personally.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:46 PM

my comments are adressed to Richard Bridge,you have been rude,already.now stop wasting everyones time.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Ok this seems to be getting a little heated,with or without reason.
Which is a shame.
So if I get the next round in can we be nice while we drink to each others differences?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Bruce M. Baillie
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

I'm with Captain swing and wee little drummer on this one, far too many precious people around these days who are fucking useless and demand people to be quiet while they perform something boring, crap, or just plain uninteresting. Why shouldn't you yawn if someone is boring? As long as you do it quietly it's OK by me. I've played in plenty of pubs and bars where I've not been listened to and frankly, not been expected to be listened to! you put up with it! If you are any good you transcend it!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:52 PM

"now we have Dick Miles,what sort of a bloody introduction is that.
this MC was paid to be at that festival,whether he likes the performer or not,he is paid to present and introduce people properly,this involves at the very least,stating what the performer does [plays concertina sings traditional songs is over here on tour from Ireland etc etc]and convincing the audience that the person is good."

Introduction not good enough for the captain.

"Songs should be performed without any crutches.
if a performer forgets the words,they should keep cool, ad lib,and/or carry on to the next verse,that is what performing is all about"

Other performers not good enough for the captain.

"running workshops is good but running workshops successfully requires skill and diplomacy and tact"

Workshops not good enough for the captain.

"workshops should concentrate upon improving technique"

Other people's singing not good enough for he captain.

"when I started as a floor singer 1971,the competition was tough,nobody ever sang songs with words in front of them.
I can remember going out to the toilet to run through words ,to make sure I had it right,if you werent any good you didnt get a chance to sing the next week,if a performer forgot a word they carried on,we had to learn how to perform,as we were doing it,and that[ imo] is the only way.
I experienced all those things as a newbie performer,but I got up and did it,I practised a lot before I went on,if i played a wrong chord aor sang a wrong word [I let it go ,and made sure I got the next verse right"

The rest of us are not as good as teh captain.

""The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that" EVERYONE, PLEASE TAKE NOTE. "

The rest ofour techniques (is that what folk song singing is about?) are not as good as teh captain.


"Here are some facts,I have ben professional for 35 years, made 4 cds ,5 lps,one of which Martin Carthy played guitar,one of which A Concertina Compilation,featured John Kirkpatrick. neither of these two would associate with me on a recording if they did not rate me.
Dave Bryant regularly booked me at clubs he ran. Iwas gigging before Eliza"

Yes, no-one has as much respect as the captain


"please show what these conceited remarks were"

I think so. Remember, the recordings of your performances are out there on youtube. Are you really sure you are as good as you seem to say you are? If not, how do you justify looking down on so many?

I can't say I've found Jim Carrol's performances electronically preserved on the tube for posterity (yet) - so he might be as good as he seems here to assert that he is.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM

Hey ! for a while I thought this thread was getting boring - now it's quite entertaining - a punch-up on a thread called Folk Club Manners what more could you want ? - I'm quite looking forward to the next installment !

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM

I think Mr Miles and Mr Bridge should each post one song on YouTube and we can vote for it. Winner gets to stick his tongue out at the loser.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM

Nice one Gervase, any takers?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:50 AM

Richard,
"I can't say I've found Jim Carrol's performances electronically preserved on the tube for posterity (yet) - so he might be as good as he seems here to assert that he is."
Please read what I wrote about my protracted but highly enjoyable career as a singer (21 Oct 08 - 03:40 AM ) - I am no longer a singer and I have never claimed any great merits for my singing when I was doing it regularly.
Nowadays my interest is confined to the survival of the music I have devoted over two thirds of my life to.
I have always argued that folk song will only survive if it is taken seriously as a performing art (please read my quote of MacColl on work and pleasure before howling about po-faced singing). If people think that the way ahead is to throw open the floor for wannabe singers to practice in public - sorry - beg to differ.
Nick has the right of it when he says about amateur dramatic societies - "people come along with a wide spectrum of talent and are usually found a spot somewhere within a production which echoes that talent" - rather a far cry from turning up with your crib sheet and automatically assuming that you will be given a spot. I would have to take both shoes off to count the number of sing-around clubs I have never re-visited where the wannabes outnumber the singers who remember the words and the tune and sound as if they know AND ENJOY what they are singing about.
I spent twenty years involved in workshops being helped with my singing and hopefully helping others to become better singers - I even started one in Manchester many years ago.
Surely the way forward is the same as the reply the lady received when she asked "How do I get to The Carnegie Hall" - "Practice lady, practice".
Jim Carroll
PS Have just re-read my posting - not very well put together I'm afraid, but it's very difficult to concentrate over the sound of clashing egos - and not just Richard and the Cap'n's

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:13 AM

I wold like to make clear that I make no claim to be better than the captain, nor even as good. What I object to is his claim to be able to tell everyone how to do it better. Not many people have earned that right.

It's rather ironic in that I do practice quite a lot, and do make a point of seeking to attain a standard in what I do (and I may or may not succeed) - but I don't think that those who simply "have a go" deserve the condescension, and I am certainly prepared to go to bat for them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

Quite often the situation occurs where you get a good singer/performer who brings along their partner/wife/husband who can struggle through a song with a bit of help.

I think that it is only fair to let these folk have a go, rather than have to sit around passively all night. Part of the attraction of a singaround for me is its interactivity - they may even get quite good in the end.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:34 AM

I do think that quoting performances on Utube is a bit unfair.These are put there free of charge for others to listen to.They are normally home made performances and not studio recordings.OK some use them for promotion of themselves,but mostly it is a bit of fun,with beginners attempting to perform in public for the first time.The same applies for Folk Clubs a scared person gets up on stage in front of an audience to start off a possible Folk career.All performances no matter how bad are accepted ,they get applause and from that beginning we get many of the big stage names we know today.If a great big hook yanks them off the stage a minute into the act or someone shouts out "It's Crap ,get off the stage" then that performer will never be seen again.
The latter will be the way to kill off all future talent.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: fisheye
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

If musicians in an orchestra can have their music in front of them, why the hell can't folk singers. Over a number of years playing I have a quite a collection of tunes, chords and rhythms buried in my memory.
As for words I cannot even remember the name of the place I am playing in half the time,
as my eyes are getting bad it looks like i will be printing my word sheets on A3 paper.
As my style of playing is finger picking i do tend to make songs a little more complicated than the plectrum basher. So until i need braille to read the words i for one will continue
with relying on the printed word.

fisheye

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:28 AM

RicharBridge
at no point have I said that I am good,I have stated an opinion,which is that I think it is better to perfotrm without a crib sheet.
I said I was gigging before Eliza,[ that doesnt make me better,just different]but it does give me experience.
if you are going to quote me, please have the good manners to quote,without editing.,and thus altering my meaning. here is that post.Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

because I have a different opinion,I am subjected to a personal attack from Richard Bridge.
right Richard Bridge here are some facts,I have ben professional for 35 years, made 4 cds ,5 lps,one of which Martin Carthy played guitar,one of which A Concertina Compilation,featured John Kirkpatrick.
neither of these two would associate with me on a recording if they did not rate me.
Dave Bryant regularly booked me at clubs he ran.
Iwas gigging before Eliza[that doesnt mean I am any better,just different],but I have had long experience,so I am reasonably well qualified to talk about changes in folk clubs over 40 years.
both you and Amber have completely over reacted to my opinion,at what point have I been ungracious?
as Jim Carroll says its not about being better than someone,its about feeling at ease with songs so that youcan perform them well.
now richard bridge,get off my back.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM

I'll risk answering fisheye's question, though I don't want to decry those who prefer to have words in front of them, because I personally don't mind people having crib sheets.

That said, those who do use them might find it easier to understand the criticism above if they take on board this fact: There is a big difference between musicians, who are communicating non-verbal sounds, reading from paper, and singers reading from lyrics.

The reason is simple. When you sing you are in fact also speaking. Songs are in reality only modulated speech, and when you are speaking to someone it's considered polite to look at them. This is why politicians go to great lengths to memorise their speeches, or use 'invisble' autocues.

And it's why so many people are - in purely animal behavioural terms - 'offended' by orators or singers reading their words. They can't help it - it's a subliminal reaction. It's also why people like me who sing with their eyes closed are occasionally pilloried. It's the same reason people are offended, and also the same reason I have to do it.

When you are speaking to an individual, he 'mirrors' your expression - again, instinctively. But audiences don't do that. Some hold the most unexpected expressions - because the normal dialogue is not, in fact, working properly, and they are in a different place, mentally. It can be very unsettling. (I used to be alarmed by people - quite a few, usually - who frowned crossly throughout the gig, so I assumed they were hating it - only to have them come up at the end to wring my hand, praise me effusively and buy three CDs)!

So If I can see the audience (as one can in most folk clubs) I close my eyes, and take the stick. If there is stage lighting and the audience is invisible I can leave them open - and people are much happier.

Reading words has the same effect - accepting, of course, the other points raised above by both sides of the debate.

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

Tom, Dick, (where's Harry?)

I really wouldn't expect professional musicians such as yourselves to be using crib sheets or music.

However, there is a world of difference between expectations of top professional entertainers and those in a singaround. Let people use whatever they need to use to make their music (except pianos obviously!!)....we should all applaud their efforts.

....But only let the competent appear in front of a paying audience...... especially when this includes non-folkies.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

Iwould like to make my opinions clear.
Ihave been character assasinated by Richard Bridge,firstly he has mis quoted my posts by careful editing,then he has claimed that I have said that Iam good[which I havent]
I prefer to see performers, amateurs or otherwise not using crib sheets.
however recently I was at Robin Hoods Bay,folk club and a woman sang Wahitby Whaler,from a crib sheet[i think]and sang it well,but she was in my opinion an exception,most people I have seen using crib sheets have not performed very well[and in my opinion would perform better without, even if they forgot the occasional word].
I am entitled to an opinion [just as Richard Bridge is]without being called conceited.
I if I was guesting in a folk club or a punter ,I would never PASS ANY PUBLIC COMMENT ON A PERFORMER,that is bad manners,IF they asked me for my opinion,I would try and explain my viewpoint,and encourage them not to use printed words,that is how Ifeel and Iam entitled to state my opinion on this forum,without my words being twisted and edited to have adifferent meaning,
my comments are not SUBSTANTIALY different from some others here like Will fly and Breezy[another long time gigging performer].
So why has Bridge singled me out for this unpleasantness,are we no longer allowed to have different opinions.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:57 AM

"If musicians in an orchestra can have their music in front of them, why the hell can't folk singers?" Yes, but the soloist standing in front of them doesn't normally. They practise, practise, practise in preparation for a public performance.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM

Tom Bliss,
Thanks for that insight - never thought of it that way. Even when a singer closes his/her eyes to sing, they tend to turn the head towards the listener, giving the impression of eye-contact.
Richard
"What I object to is his claim to be able to tell everyone how to do it better. Not many people have earned that right"
My old mum used to say "Stick your bum out of the window and somebody is sure to come along and paint a face on it".
Perform publicly and you invite comment. On the whole folk criticism and self-criticism is gentle enough to be anodyne almost to the point of non-existence, and therefore useless. Have only ever come across two critics in the folk world who can be described as 'vindictive', both being 'career reviewers' attempting to make up for their own shortcomings by tearing down the work of others, but they are rare enough to be ignored (as they largely are). Don't really think any of us is above criticism and advice, do you? You don't have to agree with it and surely it's better made in the open than behind the back. Having said that, as the Cap'n inferred earlier, criticism needs to be delivered with a modicum of sensitivity (Cap'n?).
Re standards.
How is this for an idea? Why can't clubs organise the occasional unpublicised casual singarounds apart from the set club evenings in order to get new singers used to singing in front of audiences. Should they feel that the new singers are up to it, they might extend it to include advice sessions.
As I see it, the future of folk song depends on drawing new people on to the scene, and that is almost certainly going to have to happen through the clubs (certainly not concerts).
If the standard of singing is so low (or even so varied) as to merit the description 'professional amateurism' (Alex Campbell used to call it 'Near enough for folk music) it will deserve all the derision it attracts and will remain the poor relative of the performing arts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

They are exact quotes, without editing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Northerner
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

Well, I may as well enter the fray.

I had a long time out of singing at folk club because of health problems. I still am a bit nervous so do use a crib sheet when singing a song that I am working on or that I haven't sung in a while. It's more about being nervous, really, than lack of rehearsal. Once I am comfortable with the song the crib sheet goes. I never, ever use a crib sheet on a guest night, only on a singaround night. I am perfectly happy to see performers using crib sheets or dots on singaround nights - that's the place where we are trying out material or improving it. But crib sheets from anyone on a guest night, definitely not. If I don't have material at a suitable standard on a guest night then I sit quietly and listen. Of course, I would like a guest to hear me, and hopefully enjoy it, so that is a good incentive to bring material up to a certain standard of performance.

What really annoys me is people who are not good listeners to my stories and getting comments that they are children's stories. None of my stories are children's stories. All of them are of suitable length and well-rehearsed. I put in a lot of time looking for stories that I hope people will enjoy. I am no longer a novice but am now doing some professional work, including work with some top performers during the summer. I believe there is a lot of ignorance in folk clubs about storytelling but other performers should at least try to be reasonably professional in their comments - particularly if they are also trying to do some professional performing work.   I have recently started a storytelling circle but don't know yet if this is a viable long-term venture - we are a fairly small group. I am always professional in my conduct towards other performers - I just wish I got the same treatment from others. It is only a few people - why do a few people have to spoil things? Most people are very supportive.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:29 AM

I was a member of Jim Carroll's "Mutual Improvement Society" (The Manchester Critics), and I considered it a privilege.

I don't want to name names, at this stage at least, but it seems to me that if "you" (or 'one', if preferred) need your ego balmed before you get your instrument out of its case ; or if you have to present a CV in the hope of being taken seriously ; then in my (admittedly) limited experience as a singer of folk songs before the booze got to me -
IMABHO, as a denizen of the folk demi-monde, you're in the wrong box.

It was my experience that a thin skin, or an over-inflated ego, was a recipe for a good piss-taking.

Played for and got, I think - if the cap fits, wear the fucking thing.

(Seven to two I get accused of trolling. Any takers ?)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM

Well Captain Birdseye is famous for his fish fingers anyway - or was it frozen peas?

As the eye of a fish says, an orchestra has sheet music in front of them as well as a conductor.

Mind you I don't think the argument was about sheet music. and come on the orchestra are probably playing something with more that 3 chords and there are dozens of 'em playing together.

It was about having the words in front of you whilst performing. I don't see anything wrong with it, if the performance is good. Mind you when you see a bloke perform the same song 3 or 4 times a week for 10 years still with a crib sheet you begin to wonder ... and it's only got 2 verses!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:03 PM

"I have been busy this week and only managed to learn the tune. So I have brought along with me the lyrics on paper. I am going to give you all one and whilst I play, would you mind singing it."

As ours is concert style, we now tell poeple to turn their mobiles off and refrain from talking whilst a song or tune is being performed.

Our MC has now got to talking about crisps before we start. She says "If you must eat crisps whilst the performance is on, can you please suck them in order to keep the noise down" or something like that.

It can be a bit awekward telling somebody to shut up in the middle of a concert. I did it once to a guy who was constantly talking and his voice was quite loud. I was across the other side of the room and waited for the song to finish and then shouted to the guy to please be quite during songs. He just looked at me. So I shouted it again. Again no response. He just looked at me. Suddenly his daughter said "Do you mean my dad". I assumed the bloke was her dad and said yes and was just about to say something more, and she said "Oh sorry, he's deaf, so he can't hear you".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM

We've got books full of songs. It's just not practical to learn every one of them, but we don't use them on guest nights unless a particular song is requested and we don't know all the words.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM

LOL Les - if his hearing was that bad why come to a concert?

I use a crib sheet when I'm not quite sure of the words but do try to only glance down when really neccesary and, for the main part, do try to sing out to the audience. For me, it spoils the whole mood of a song to have someone stop part way through because they can't remember the next line, particularly when they labour the point and keep going over and over until they remember it, or go back and start the song again.

Woodsie - you ain't far wrong - I've been at a couple of clubs where they have someone like that and that really is taking the biscuit IMHO.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

Sorry folks - don't understand this 'only on guest nights' bit.
As far as I'm concerned a club should stand and fall by its regular singers - they are the constants who shape the club and set the standards (or not, as the case may be) and it is in their hands that the club/revival/music will stand or fall.
Wouldn't dream of asking a guest not to use a crib sheet - on the other hand he/she wouldn't get a booking in any club I had anything to do with if they did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: rodentred
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

I do wonder if someone gives a folk club a try how they might be expected to assimilate all these opinions on manners before putting a foot wrong. I think each club essentially defines its own code of conduct by majority opinion and what is right for one (eg a back room singaround) won't be right for another (eg concert based). But here's a couple of things that I think are important that I tell newbies:

1 If you are listening show common courtesy, don't talk during performance, fiddle with noisy things, switch phone off and only enter the room if you can do so invisibly.
2 If performing - learn the song or how to play the instrument in your own time (use words as a prop only), sing and play loud enough for people to hear and ensure you speak clearly enough that anyone trying can actually hear what the song is about.

Bugbears: 'drummers' who join in with rhythm when not invited; people who say I just learned this today (my heart sinks and is rarely disappointed); guests who don't stay in the room to hear the performances of others

I believe Folk Clubs are fantastic to give a stage to people who are just starting out and generally newbies are given a warm welcome. We all have to start somewhere. What they don't seem to be good at is telling people they're never going to be any good and in continually providing a stage to people who should be kept off it. However, speaking personally it was one of those 'well I can do better than him' moments that got me performing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:23 PM

So what motivates people to stand up a sing in a folk club? Is it because they want to sing? It will sound better in the bath. Do they want to feel more "involved" with the club? There are less stressful ways. Or do they want to put on a performance which they hope will be appreciated by their audience?

Of course everyone has to start somewhere. But there's more to it than just being able to hold a note and remember the words - you have to learn the techniques of performing. These include tricks for remembering elusive lyrics, or facing that familiar situation where the next verse is approaching fast and you've no idea how it starts ... moving smoothly into an instrumental break if the words don't come asif it was always intended, or making up the words convincingly on the spot. If you always have the words in front of you, you'll rely on that crutch and you won't develop skills to help you cope in these situations.

Nerves - everyone has them, the trick is to learn to use the energy positively. Again, practice brings confidence, but if you're always relying on props you won't gain that confidence.

Mistakes - everyone makes them. The best performers learn ways to disguise them so that most of the audience don't even notice, or they may have the confidence simply to laugh them off.

Not everyone can be a great performer. However many can attain a satisfactory level of competence, but to do so they need to learn the techniques of performing, which they won't do if they continually rely on props.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM

I agree completely with Rodentred's particular bugbear: "guests who don't stay in the room to hear the performances of others". I've occasionally seen this happen, and sometimes their entourage goes out with them !

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:52 AM

Howard Jones just said everything that needs to be said.
Why do people want to sing in a folk club? - because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are.
You have to like the songs enough to want others to like them with you, to value them enough to have done the work so you won't make a hames of them, to respect your fellow-performers enough not to put them in a position of having to pick up the pieces after you've made a balls of them, and above all, to look forward to that buzz when your songs work, for you and your listeners- that is what singing (and the enjoyment of singing) should be about - nothing less.
A high level of technical skill - even virtuosity, might or might not come later, depending on how much time you are prepared to devote to it, but I believe that the above will put enough petrol in your tank to make a good start to the journey, and hopefully you'll never have to look back and say "Jeeze, I wish I hadn't done that!!!"
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

When we first got back into the folk scene, a few years back we went to a club which was run by a couple who did about half of the evening, but had a "bit in the middle" where others could do one song. This may not sound like the ideal format for many singers , but it had the advantage that you really learned the song that you were doing well.

Unfortunately the club folded some time ago, and we got into bad habits of not learning the songs properly and using words. This can be OK for an initial exploration of if a song is likely to work or not, or finding if you're doing it in the right key (you can't always do this just by practising at home), but it doesn't really get you performing the songs as opposed to just singing them.

I write songs as well and have a huge backlog of ones that I haven't memorised the words of.

Hence a resolution for a moratorium on writing until I've learned the words of the ones written already. I do this by using that time when you're laying in bed waiting to fall asleep, and in the morning when you've just woken up to go through words in my head. You can use advancing age either as an excuse, or as exercise to try to keep the brain active. Having said this, I do find that it takes a few performences to get a song right -it has to "mature in the cask " a bit.

I don't object if other people use words though. It's up to them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:11 AM

Driving the car. Don't play the radio or CD, sing aloud - 20 times through. It not only teaches you the words, but it sorts out the breathing, the muddly bits of melody and/or words that need a bit of editing - and if it's one of your own songs it teaches you where the weak points in the tune are - where you're relying too much on a chord change, or whatever, so you can add ornamentation or variation to imply the chord change. If you usually sing to an instrument it'll improve your melodies massively. Oh, and drink lots of water. The air blower and heater will dry out your throat much more than normal singing will (actually that goes for just talking too - if you're driving somewhere to sing, don't talk a lot, and do sip water). Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mattkeen
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:26 AM

Quote
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll



So good they named him twice

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:17 AM

Tom Bliss,
          I would rather you concentrate 100% on driving and learn to sing the songs in a much more appropriate place such as at home or diddling about in the garden.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

I used to know some members of a society with secrets who practised their lines while driving - using a cassette player as a prompt. It did not work for me because too much of my mind was on my driving (I am a rather obsessive driver) and so I failed to learn the words well that way.

The best place I have found to practise songs for words (not useful for guitar or mandolin parts, but then neither is driving the car!) is walking dog in empty field - but again it is easy to blow your throat out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:25 AM

Yeah, those paid guests that sit in the other bar 'til it's their turn get up my nose too.

On some occasions certain the floor spots have been better than the said "guests"

Another thing is the "resident" who struts around with the airs an graces of a superstar and has little time to talk to the young struggling musician/newcomer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

Yes, I should have said only on nice long empty-motorway journeys - like the one to Kings Lynn I'll be doing shortly :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gedi
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:39 AM

When I got back into the folk scene a few years back after a long absence, I went to a folk club I heard about to do a song or two. What threw me was when everyone joined in the song, but singing it their way, not the way I sang it. I quickly got lost in the song and my frayed nerves got even worse. I went a couple of times but then stopped.

It's ok to join in verses, or even the song, providing that you can be sure your singing the same tune/words as the singer. Otherwise, better to wait til you know how the song is going to be sung before joining in.

Happily I have now found a club where there is a good atmosphere and a sensitive audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM

"We've got books full of songs. It's just not practical to learn every one of them, ..."

Why not? It is said, 'Girl Friday', that Henry Burstow knew 400 songs and could sing them, one after the other, over several days (without notes).

I probably know about 50 (I'm no Henry Burstow!), including a few 20 verse ballads. I know them all by heart and never use a crib sheet. I don't find learning songs particularly easy - but who said singing should be easy? If you care enough about the songs and your audience you'll put the effort in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM

Going back to folk club manners - Being noisy during someone elses performance has to be one of the most rude things to do. There are many ways to do it - talk, eat crisps, go in or out, mobile phones etc. The other one that annoys me, as doorman, is people who just walk in without paying! They are often regulars who know very well that they should pay and seem to get annoyed when I have to ask them for the money! What is that all about?

Poor performance is of course as discourteous as anything the audience does and, at the risk of getting shot down in flames as I have been before, I find some peoples performances can be downright embarasing. I always explain to anyone new to the club on a singers night what the singers night is all about. I am more than happy to explain that we can get anything from Martin Carthys guitar to Les Dawsons piano! I was ridiculed for this by another mudcat member who now seems to believe that Swinton Folk Club is the worst in the world but we have just celebrated our 25th anniversary at the same venue so I guess we must be doing something right!

On a guest night there are soem floor singers I would not dream of putting on and, bearing in mind that on a guest night we cannot get more than two or three support singers on, it has never been a problem. Jim is quite right - poor performers can destroy a club. I think we may have got round it by making sure they do not appear on high profile evenings and, where they are encouraged to perform on a singers night, peoples expectations are always set correctly.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM

Sorry, just re-read and don't think I quite got my point over. On a singers night at our club anyone there will expect there just MAY be the occasional poor performance. We accept this and because there is no way we would ever 'ban' anyone on a singers night we accept that, very occasionaly, we do have to live with some poor performances. I think, just as in life, shit happens! We just try to avoid getting covered in it:-)

D.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM

I find that there are a couple of songs that I do differently from the way people expect, and it sometimes helps to warn people in advance

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM

Hi Dave

I think you've got to the nub of it (as others have above).

It helps enormously if someone sets out the club's stall at the start of the evening if there are new faces in, or maybe has a little chat at the door with any new people as they arrive.

Even a very informal singaround will benefit from a little 'hosting.'

People have radically different ideas about what is and isn't acceptable in a 'folk' 'club.' The problem being, as we've discussed here before, that those terms can legitimately be attached to some massively different standards, values and philosophies.

Much of the rancour above is, of course, caused by the application of a personal value set (by assumption) to an activity which is actually about something else entirely.

Many very different events and philosophies are lumped together under the terms 'folk' and 'club' (plus a few other non-specific terms) so you can't do much to differentiate in your promotion (assuming there even is any) between a community-based come-all-ye and a concert with a house band or paid support, for example - or the many other permutations in between.

But you can explain the group's approach. Then people will be more likely to buy into it themselves, or if they don't, at least they might leave feeling it's not for them, but without feeling short-changed.

A lot of the problems arrive purely because no-one has taken the trouble to explain what's going on and why.

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

I'll endorse that, Richard. Not that I sing in public very often these days, but my version of 'Yellow Handkerchief', learned from a Romani singer, is slightly different from the versions most often sung.

I, too, make a point of saying this prior to singing it. I think of it as common courtesy.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM

I should perhaps have added that because I run a fairly aggressive mailing list policy I quite often have people from village hall gigs turning up at clubs for the first time. But it's quite rare to hear an MC explain what floor spots are. (I usually have to explain myself at half time when they come and ask me what the heck's going on - and I sometimes forget to warn them it's all going to happen again in a minute)! Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM

I've found the car to be a good place to learn because I am terrible at remembering words - goodness knows why as my memory is generally good. I have a little Zoom recorder and recently have been playing and singing the songs into it and then record to cd and then learn as I go (rather than just having a backing track and singing to it). It seems to be working as I've added three songs that I now can do without stabilisers in the last ten days.

However, with safety in mind, before I set off in the morning and put a CD on I carefully check where Tom Bliss is performing so that we don't drive into each other. If he is playing in North Yorkshire I listen to the news.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:06 AM

If I were to be killed by a person driving a car and not paying attention I would not find it comforting if I knew that it was because he was memorizing a song. This is no better than talking on a mobile phone, in my opinion. I believe strongly in the importance of music, but it's not more important than road safety. I live in a university town where the students ride their bicycles talking on their mobiles. Yet another reason why I've rather gone off bicycles.

There's no trick to memorizing. As I said before, it's just breaking up whatever needs to be learned into manageable chunks and frequent repetition. I probably know a couple of hundred songs _mostly_ by heart, but singing one all the way through with no errors, or being able to recover quickly, is another matter and requires practice. I don't know what would happen if performing in front of other people again after not having done so in a long time. I never found it that easy.

It's no good knowing 200 songs if they all sound the same.

Better five songs really well. Just my opinion.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

No, you dont wanna be singin when yer drivin, takes too much concentration - Balls. You will listen and sing along to the radio, you will have conversations with your passengers - get real!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Mind you, I do remember meeting a (very) well known traditional singer just before the opening of a singing festival in the West of Ireland some years ago. He was looking rather "shook", as we say, - and announced that he'd nearly had a head-on collision with another car on his way down. He'd been learning a new song at the time - with the words propped up on the steering wheel... Not to be recommended!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

It depends how much one concentrates on the different activities. How much are the 20-and-under-year-olds concentrating on driving, with music so loud the bass rattles my apartment with all of the car windows closed? How aware are they of what's going on outside their car?

Seeing or being in a car accident can make one much more aware of how fragile our lives are and what the consequences of irresponsible driving are. In the town where I grew up, a woman died because someone drove up on the sidewalk because he was trying to swat an insect in his car. He got his license the day before.

I might have a little conversation with someone, but I'm sure not going to treat driving like a singing practice session, working out where to breath, and so on. That goes too far for me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

Piers, you have shamed me.

I won't sing in the car any more, because, yes, you're right. It's not safe to drive and sing at the same time. If a tricky corner came up, I might be trying to remember some line and fail to go round it, because I'd be concentrating so hard on the lyrics that I wouldn't be able to tear myself away and release a part of my brain to rotate the starring wheel ;-)

More seriously, I wasn't suggesting learning new songs in the car (with the lyrics taped to the windscreen?) I was talking about honing them for performance - something you can interrupt instantaneously if something dangerous like a mobile-phone-wielding-student should hove across the bows.

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

For what it's worth, I can drive safely and sing simultaneously!

Thank God the health and safety people weren't about when sailors used to sing while working, or we wouldn't have any shanties!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

Piers the whole point is that you DON'T think about the breathing. You just sing. That's why the car is a good place, precisely because you're doing something more important, and you're NOT concentrating on the singing. That's what combs out all the tangles and fixes the song in you brain. That's why it's better than sitting in a room with the words in front of you. You're accessing the automatic areas. Works for tunes too. Just hum them and next time you go to play - bingo.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

My singing teacher had a head-on collision with someone. I can't imagine that she was doing anything stupid or irresponsible. There have been lots of musicians who've died in traffic or travel-related accidents; presumably not because they practiced in the car, but because musicians have to travel. I wonder whether the punishing schedule of a touring musician might have something to do with it; driving when tired, driving too long, etc.

I haven't driven since 2001, not having a car. I never drove very often in Germany and I've never gotten used to the aggressive way people drive here and the carelessness of drivers toward pedestrians.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

Well Piers, why am I not surprised that you don't drive.

You think here is bad, try Italy!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

Tom, I really wasn't trying to get at you.

Let me tell you one of my favorite stories: The animator Richard Williams wrote a very good book called _The Animator's Survival Handbook_ (or something similar). He had hired some old-time animators, excellent artists and craftsmen who had been thrown out like old typewriters when the Hollywood studios closed their animation departments. One of them was named Milt Kahl. Willams once asked Kahl in all innocence, "Milt, do you ever listen to classical music when you're drawing?" Kahl replied, "What? Are you crazy? How dare you ask me such a damn fool question? _I'm not smart enough to concentrate on two things at one time_."

It's up to you how you drive. I don't want to sound preachy (something I criticize folk-style singers for), but if you took what I said seriously, it might save your life or someone else's. End of sermon and thanks for not having a go at me for what I already said before. I know what one risks on messageboards when one criticizes something someone says.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:45 AM

From: Silas - PM
"Well Piers, why am I not surprised that you don't drive."

I have an (expired) US driver's license and an unlimited German one. I got my driver's license when I was 17 and drove as long as I lived in the US.

I can't afford a car and wouldn't want the hassle of caring for one, anyway, and can get by without one.

"You think here is bad, try Italy!"

If I had to, I would.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

Piers,

nice little story that. But I think though the point Tom was making is at that stage of practicing the song, you're *not* concentrating on it at all - you're concentrating on driving. It's that 'singing while not actually thinking about it' which helps (some people) cement the song, *after* they've done the heavy concentrating on getting the words in their head... Running through the song at that satge shouldn't take any more concentration than listening to a cd or the radio, and may take less, depending on what's on!

Kahl may have not been able to listen to music 'in the background' without giving it his full attention - fair enough. But some people can.

Different strokes, different folks.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

I think Milt Kahl's point was that if one is going to do something, it's worth devoting one's full attention to it. It does not just apply to drawing, but to any activity.

When I read that, with a couple of exceptions, I stopped listening to music when I drew and I noticed a big improvement in my drawing. I do sometimes listen to music when I draw when I'm making drawings that are meant to go with that particular music, or occasionally when just doodling when listening to the radio as a way of just doing _anything_ when things have been difficult. These are just exceptions, though.

On another board, I read something about things guitarists can do when a guitar isn't at hand; visualization and things with your fingers. People can do whatever they want, but my personal opinion is that that sort of a thing is a waste of time. When I draw I draw, and when I practice the guitar, I practice the guitar, and when I makes tea, I makes tea, and when I makes water, I makes water (just not in the same pot!).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

Silas,
      There is a school of thought in the land that considers, yes, even the radio is an un-acceptable distraction and should be discouraged or even dis-abled while the vehicle is in motion. Also, and I daresay a number of correspondents here would agree, engaging the driver in conversation can be a hazardous practise. As for not concentrating on the signing whilst driving, surely that is the perfect recipe for getting it wrong or not getting the best out of yourself. No, go to a safer place, record what you wish then and adjust accordingly.
    I apologise that my words above have absolutely nothing to do with Folk Club Manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM

A story about Seung Sahn, a Zen teacher:

"Do not eat and read the newspaper at the same time," he said. "When you eat, just eat. When you read the newspaper, just read the newspaper."

The next morning, a student saw the teacher eating breakfast while reading the newspaper.

"I thought you said not to eat and read the newspaper at the same time," the student said.

To which Sahn said, "When you eat and read the newspaper, just eat and read the newspaper."

So Tom, when you drive and sing, just drive and sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

David,
      Do the people who would not be considered good enough to sing on guest nights know their status and do they come back to the club?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete Mariner
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:19 AM

There is a line missing from Working Radish`s story.
"A look of pain spread across Sahn`s face as he spoke those words. He had bitten his tongue!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM

From: GUEST,Working Radish - PM
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM

"To which Sahn said, 'When you eat and read the newspaper, just eat and read the newspaper.'"

Interesting that you brought up Zen. The idea of concentrating on what one is doing at a given moment is an idea from Zen. I don't care what any teacher says, if you're doing two things at once, you're doing two things at once, and if you're concentrating on one thing at a time, you're concentrating on one thing at a time and nothing in the world can change that. Most people don't practice Zen 24 hours a day and sometimes one feels like doing two or more things at once. If one wants to do one's best work, one concentrates on a single thing. And if one wants to get better on the guitar, one goes home and practices, and that's what I'm going to do know.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

Err --- I mean "now".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM

So, Piers, one should never instrumentally accompany oneself singing? Curiously, my daughter ascribes to that view, and so gave up the guitar, but many do not.

What about walking and chewing gum?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:39 AM

for me playing an instrument involves doing more than one thing at a time....that takes a lot of concentration. I have to remember what each hand should do as well and the right speed...I think that;s why I don't do well if I think someone is listening...its just another thing to concentrate on not thinking about..

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

Piers,

well done you for having such a single minded approach. If that is what works for you, go for it.

Doesn't mean that's what works for everybody though, surely?

Plus, if I'm singing a song I've practiced at a folk club, however much I am concentrating on singing the song, I'm doing other stuff too - blocking out the noise from the bar, coping with the irritating tickly cough I've just developed out of nowhere, blatantly ignoring the rude b*****r who came in and slammed the door in the middle of my second verse and then sat uin the front row flicking through his floder of songs with one hand and checking his text messages with the other... so one of the things I need to practice, after I've done my initial learning of the song, is how to sing it while other stuff is demanding my attention. And so while my delivery whilst concentrating on driving is probably not live-performance-worthy and in itself probably doesn't do the song justice, it does do what Tom described in getting it into the automatic bit of my brain. (and when performing, even without irritating distractions of any kind, I still want to be concentrating on my communication with the audience, primarily, not a navel-gazing focus on getting the words & breathing right... so that still means I'm concentrating on several things at once)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Marje
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM

I sing in the car sometimes. It's totally different from using a mobile phone - for one thing, no one is listening, nor am I listening to anyone else. This means I can and do stop singing instantly if there's a need for particular concentration on the traffic etc (or if I 'm listening to the radio, I switch it off at such times). I think one of the main problems with a mobile is that a driver is trying to communicate with someone who's not present, and that requires a different sort of concentration and continuity.

There are times, like driving on quiet roads at night, when I find it actually helps my alertness to sing. Driving can be monotonous, and I find my concentration can lapse because of mental under-stimulation as well as over-stimulation. Singing or listening to the radio keeps me from getting dozy while driving.

Anyway, maybe it's a male/female thing - we women are simply better at multi-tasking, aren't we?

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Where I work people are on the telephone most of the time. Some when talking can only concentrate on that call and are completely oblivious to everything else around - if the fire alarm went off there is no guarantee they would notice it they are that uni-focussed. At the other extreme are people who happily listen on the phone, browse the internet, doodle, pass messages to others, write emails and get involved in other conversations - it's just different ways peoples brains work. My wife wonders why my son and I play guitar while we are watching the TV (the answer is because the two things don't conflict for me or him) or read and watch things. Just how we are. It's not a male:female thing as usually depicted though as my wife and I are back to front on this.

There was an interesting comment that (I think) Barry Finn made on a thread about accompaniment some while back that being a good accompanist perhaps is easier for people in the second category. If you can simultaneously listen and react to what others are playing and doing whilst still concentrating on your own playing then it's perhaps easier than having to focus on one activity at a time. It's an interesting idea that I've often pondered about.

I play with one person who I don't think can do it - I don't think it is because he is a poor player just that he finds it hard to listen to what others are doing because it competely throws his own playing. It makes it hard to have much freedom when playing with him - which is ok as long as one is aware of it.

I play with other people though who spark off each other and ideas lead elsewhere because they listen and react and constantly pick up ideas, riffs, rhythms etc from each other - for me that's more fun and why I like playing in sessions as well.

Just different stuff.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM

And I'll be driving and singing on my way home from work in about 10 minutes so just watch out if you are in North Yorkshire...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:55 PM

Going back to the deaf man. It does seem a little odd for him to be at the folk club, I suppose, but pehaps he was just enjoying the friendly (I hope!) atmosphere and a drink with his daughter.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM

"What about walking and chewing gum? "
And where better is there to park your chewing gum while you're singing than on the back of your Martin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:37 PM

I knew the Gerry Ford school of multi-tasking would crop up eventually.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

He wasn't completely deaf (she said that) - he was very hard of hearing, and yes he was enjoying it with his family.
I apologised after the concert, as I hadn't realised. As it was they never came back again.
So maybe we have to learn a lesson sometimes and maybe a bit of tolerance is needed at times.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM

I have hesitated to join this thread because it is a very complex subject and I have mixed feelings about some aspects. I do have reservations about reading from the words or playing from the music but I'm unwilling to condemn those who do. I know a few, mostly elderly, and I know that it is not because they can't be bothered to learn but because they genuinely have trouble doing so. Never the less, they have a genuine love for the music and want to make their contribution. If they need a safety net to do it, so be it.

Really, I think Nick in his post at 21 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM said it all. That describes the folk scene as I know it where friends get together to make music and offer each other mutual support in doing so. It is not about being a "performing art" or getting to Carnegie Hall. It's about wanting to do it better as an end in itself.

Jim Carroll says -

When I started to sing it was usually on CND marches or such like; some people who heard me were kind enough to encouraged me and it became my major interest. I worked at my songs and became a little better; I was invited to perform regularly, till eventually I was asked to join The Critics Group.

Would he have achieved that without the encouragement from his friends?

A consequence of this is the need to show good manners to performers, be they stars or enthusiasts, who, with the best will in the world, will never make Carnegie Hall.

Something like -

"And now here's Bert who needs no introduction for our regular audience. For newcomers, this is the bloke I warned you about when you came in so now might be a good time to go for a piss."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

Couldn't agree with you more Snail. Its about the doing. Some comments have implied that people who don't learn the lines are lazy and in some way inferior. Some of us just CAN't learn lines or ad lib or make a joke of it when we are out there. It may be what being a performer is all about, but we are not all made of such strong stuff as some of the admirable??? characters who have posted.

Don't worry Villan, it was probably a one-off for them anyway. We have all done that sort of thing and does make you feel awful. As you say, it is a reminder to be tolerant.

Regards to you both

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

Hello Shimrod. We( TDL) are song writers who need to sing our songs. One of us, (me) mostly doesn't sing. The other one who plays guitar and sings has little short-term memory due to nearly dying in a road accident, so any songs he does manage to learn is an acheivement.He does know at least 50 songs, and I probably know 15. We have around 200 songs all told.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM

Can't believe how many posts got on page five before mine. My comments refer to Shimrod's post at the very end of page four.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM

In a long singaround you do need to go to the toilet.

As a matter of courtesy I always make sure that I don't go out for the same person's turn in the second half as I did in the first, should I need to go twice.

Thought I'd just share that!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

Thank god I go to a friendly club. where applase is appreciated. We are strict on noise has I stated we ring a bell if someone is trying to start and noise is still going on .Its better then loads of folk hollering out QUIET and Shut up which only adds to the Par-larva.

I tried a new Woodie guthrie song at the last meet and I sung with head bowled down and it was ok but I forgot the last verse which I had written down but forgot to remove from under the four pack before I started. But I got a round of applause which I was happy with.

It was a singaround so I was confident but to hastey in regards to preparation before I started. Funny I played it perfectly scores of times in front of the Cat before I left home that evening. At the singaounds I flatly refuse to partisipate first time stick comes round and thats common for me both at the club and at Knockholt. But that my choosing and no one minds.

Then the stick comes around again 2nd time I try a new song which is not always perfect. Then IF the stick comes around again I do a Dylan number which I have to perfection has far has perfection goes with me and I sing with my head up high and bellow out has tuneful has I can.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: rodentred
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM

It just goes to show the problem of having any manners in a folk club. Most of the people who have replied in the last few days can't even stay on topic and only talk about how they should or shouldn't learn songs. WTF has singing in a car got to do with how you bahave in public? Just learn the song before you sing it to me for Christ's sake

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: paula t
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM

I love the type of singers night where everyone takes their fair turn and no-one is judgemental. I've always thought the folk scene was special because everyone's contribution was valued . I find it a bit disheartening when people do not show respect to someone making a contribution to the music.I feel that this this disrespect can take many forms and the ones I see most are those people who talk over performers who do not "do" the type of material they feel is to their taste,or who place negative value judgements openly on others performances.The mobile 'phone issue is a difficult one. When Sarah and Kathryn were performing and the guy's 'phone went off I would not have been annoyed if he had answered it there and then and gone outside as quickly as possible to have his conversation. After all, it could have been an emergency.As it turned out it wasn't but we were all subjected to his loud conversation(perhaps he was speaking to someone a long way away?)He was on the front row in a small room.Ho hum.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:24 PM

Ok re Mobiles.
People take there mobile phones out with them. understandable. I put mine on vibrate and place it in a place where i will feel it go off like down me pants.
Seriously though place it in a brest pocket of a shirt where you feel it go off common sense. people need to have mobiles with them for emergencies.. ?

There is one issue that has no excuse and that is continuous bloody texting.which is happening with frightening regularaty at present at the club I attend by the younger folk and some who should know better to. Its rude and off putting to see folk doing this while you are in the auldiance it bad manners and it worse when you are playing.

I wouldnt mind but the folk who text continueously at the club I attend are all players themselves
so it very selfish,.Take mobiles with you put them on vibrate and save you texting for when you get home.


Place a small LAMANATED note on the tables at singerounds and p.a. nights
PLEASE PUT YOUR MOBILES ON VIBRATE NO TEXTING. It works.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:29 PM

Tom - interesting what you said re closing your eyes while singing. I do that now and then, but mostly I find I need to look at/around the audience to stay feeling connected and communicating, plus sometimes it really helps my performance if I catch the right person's eye, however briefly. And yet... last night while playing a challenging gig supporting a fairly wellknown folk band, I suddenly got rather unsettled by becoming aware of a few young people sitting right at the front who suppressed uncontrollable giggles throughout most of our set. I discovered later that one of them was the virtuoso fiddle-player who we'd got in for free on our guest list as he'd recently expressed interest in joining our band. Like you, I might've completely wrongly interpreted what was going on in their minds. Maybe one can harden oneself to this kind of thing! I think closing my eyes would be a last resort - but I understand why you do it!

Ah, Jim... that "beautiful moment when the song takes over" - indeed, what a feeling! and how hard to deliberately recreate!

Sue

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Pete the Hat
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:54 PM

I shut my eyes lightly so I get a blurred effect and I try to sing across a mic rather then directly into it.Only P.A. I think it sounds better.

It the same with the radios we use at work we are trained to talk across them rather then talk stright into them.across from 4inches away.

I sing from the right because I am right handed but that optional. Examiners tell me to talk across a mic /radio It stops spittle spray HITTING THE MIC which is unavoidable and causes blips   .

Has for singing across a open mike again the old school may scoff but I find it works. so what.but I have only used it twice because I rarely play on P.A.Nights but I tried it at a friends bithday party held at our club ON THE p.A and from the response I got FROM CLUB MEMBERS it was the best I had EVER sounded so there you go.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:16 AM

Snail,
"Would he have achieved that without the encouragement from his friends?"
No I wouldn't - I was never asked to sing in clubs from the word 'go' and I never assumed it to being a god-given right - thankfully, neither did anybody else. I was asked to sing in public when people thought I'd done enough work, and not before - but that was in the days when clubs had standards. Are you suggesting that the only way to encourage people is to get them to practice in public (which is what we are talking about here)?   
So far, none of the "I took my harp to a party' school of thought have addressed the question of standards, of responsibility to the audience/fellow performers/music, but have consistently fallen back on "This is what it did for me-me-me", how about what it does for the rest of us?. The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!
Audiences are, by and large, very supportive; they want you to succeed. On the other hand they can be very fickle; they tend to remember the bad performances just as clearly as the good ones; even more clearly if the bad ones are reeaaaaly bad - so that is the impression which is taken away, and more fuel is added to the "near enough for folk song" image.
Paula t wrote:
"I love the type of singers night where everyone takes their fair turn and no-one is judgmental."
Don't you believe it - everybody is judgmental - they may not express an opinion to your face, but this doesn't mean that they don't have one and are not happy to give it elsewhere.
I ask again (and direct my question to the anything goes crowd); do you believe that there should be a minimum standard for performing in public?
(Un)fortunately, I won't be around to receive an answer (in the unlikely event of one being given) as I'm off to the South Roscommon Singing Weekend at Knockcroghery (tr. The Hill of the Hangman - lovely name).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM

Should there be a minimum standard for performing in public? - Bloody right there should!

You don't have to play the guitar like Martin Simpson or Sing like Bob Fox, but you should, as a minimum, know the words to your song, know how to accompany yourself without having to stop the music to change chord (I am quite serious here)and the song should be appropriate for the venue - 'Hungry Heart' in a folk club - i mean....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Lil
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:45 AM

I am glad my cat doesn't attend my folk club. He is very rude and makes for the door whenever I pick up my autoharp!

Lil

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:11 AM

so who is going to decide what is an acceptable standard- what I think is good may be crap to you. This sounds like a request for the setting up of 'The Folk Police' - how well will that go down!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

I suggest that whether a performer is good enough should be decided by an audition by a panel of four people, two men ,one of whom is capable of reducing potential performers to a quivering wreck by vicious put-downs, the other slightly more gentle , but still capable of being cutting where necessary.

There should be two females on the panel, one of whom should preferably be married to a famous footballer, and one who should be capable of being reduced to blubbering on behalf of the rejected performers.

Spice to the proceedings would be added by the judges continually arguing among themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:04 AM

"I suggest that whether a performer is good enough should be decided by an audition by a panel of four people, two men ,one of whom is capable of reducing potential performers to a quivering wreck by vicious put-downs, the other slightly more gentle , but still capable of being cutting where necessary.

There should be two females on the panel, one of whom should preferably be married to a famous footballer, and one who should be capable of being reduced to blubbering on behalf of the rejected performers.

Spice to the proceedings would be added by the judges continually arguing among themselves. "
brilliant idea ;) Then it could be filmed and make loads of money.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM

Silas's suggestions will do for me - remembering the words, singing the tune accurately, liking the song and being proficient on your instrument will do fine - no need for inquisition.
But that appears to be far beyond some people's capabilities - and lets face it, the songs are crap and not worth the effort anyway!
Isn't it amazing how far round the houses some people will go to avoid answering a question?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM

Jim Carroll

I ask again (and direct my question to the anything goes crowd); do you believe that there should be a minimum standard for performing in public?

Yes, the desire to perform. We wouldn't pressure anyone to perform if they didn't want to although, usually, everyone is asked if they'd like to do a spot as they come through the door.

I never assumed it to being a god-given right

Never met anyone who did.

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

That would, inded, be disgraceful. We don't do it. What actually tends to happen on busy guest nights when we can't get everybody on is that residents and regulars hold back and priority goes to visitors some of whom we may never have heard before.

Are you suggesting that the only way to encourage people is to get
them to practice in public (which is what we are talking about here)?

You can practice your words or your notes in private for ever. (I know, I've done it.) The only way to practice performing in public which is a whole other skill is to perform in public.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Marje
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:33 AM

Rodentred, you were talking a lot of good sense in your first post up there, but why get so irritated about discussion of singing in the car?

We identified in this thread that it was important to make an effort to learn songs. Most of us agreed on this, but as some people still seem to be saying "But I can't learn songs", it's perfectly salient to go on to share some tips about how we do this learning.

Marje

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM

I am surprised that 'should there be a minimum standard' is even a matter for discussion.

At MSG - Manchester Sports Guild, of late and happy memory there was, on a Monday evening "Singers' Club", where I and many other
denizens of the Manchester scene served our apprenticeships, and,

having become reasonably competent and established, could rehearse newly-learned, or freshly-learned, songs and/or tunes. The audience, largely composed of singers and/or wannabees, was reckoned as
one of the most critical in the North West.

Oh, nothing was stated expressly, but by christ you were left in no doubt as to a substandard preformance. There was an unwritten rule that if you were going to fuck it up, fuck it up at Singers' Club and
not on a gig you were being paid for.

Anyone could have a spot, under the gentle hosting of the late Frank Duffy (RIP) and later the ineffable Drony (John Dronsfield).

Guest nights were Saturday and Sunday, and no floor spots were permitted then. There was the MC

(of which squad I was a member, with Paul Reed, 'Spider' John Graham, Pete Smith, Eamonn Clinch (of the Buggermen)[there may well have been others, but their names have gone from my memory - it's an age thingio])

the support, and the principal guest.

One evening, tho', David Whatsisface (Folk Club Secretary, under that grisly old bastard Jenks, who ran the gaff) made an exception to the 'no floor spots' on Guest night rule, and some woman was

introduced. I can't remember her name, and I am just grateful that I wasn't MCing on this night.

She banged a tuning fork on her head - to get the note, and it seemed to me that she must have had a wonderful time before keys were invented. Sotto voce I said to David words to the effect of

WTF is going on. He said you don't know the best of it - she's on audition.

This occasion was the first, last and only time I have heard disapproval vocalised in a Folk Club. She was murdering 'The Ship Carpenter', and someone at the serving hatch started giving it

"Shit ! Shit ! Shit!", which didn't take long to spread round the room.

You know those occasions where you yourself could die with embarrassment for another person ? Guess what ?

Minimum standards - why is it being discussed ?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:42 AM

Snail,
Haven't got time to cover all you points, but re your "hidden away in the cupboard" point - suggest you read the postings of those who adopt such practices.
"Folk Police"
Meant to say, while I may not agree with all the points raised, but so far I have been impressed with the mostly of the thoughtful, well argued replies.
"Folk Police" is a somewhat nasty knee-jerk piece of juvenalia which is usually resorted to by those devoid of argument - but sadly for them, can equally applied to those who would want to impose their shitty non-standards on the rest of us.
Maybe we should leave such unpleasantness to the schoolyard where it belongs - what do you think?
Off to The Hill of the Hangman - 'bye all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,The referee
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM

You lot have lost the plot. This is FOLK music we are talking about. FOLK sing/play folk music there are no standards, that's the fun of it. You bunch of prats that think otherwise should try classical, Jazz, Rock or indeed anything else where standards do apply.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:38 AM

Jim Carroll

Snail,
Haven't got time to cover all you points

So you pick on the one where I agree with you?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

Sniff sniff, anyone smell troll at all?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:17 AM

singing along whilst driving is ok with me so long as you don't have to think about it! And if it is something you may wish to learn the more you play it and singalong ( subliminally ) you will probably learn it. As for using a wordsheet whilst performing, it is much better not to, but, in the early stages is again ok with me. The main problem as I see it , is that no matter how well rehearsed you are the nerves can set in when you stand up in front of an audience.Nerves of course affect people in differing degrees. And you all know the story of the guy who stammers when speaking but sings beautifully!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:53 AM

I don't know that I can smell 'troll', Silas, but there's a nasty niff from a a referee . . .

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM

If we had started at some of clubs which seem to apply such draconian standards about who or who is not 'permitted to sing' a lot of us would never actually have GOT started. Me, I would prefer a supportive, friendly club where people are encouraged to have a go and people appreciate it, rather than a club with such high standards, yes perhaps with very superior singing and playing, but filled with a load of rude, arrogant individuals (no names mentioned).

You can keep them

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Amber
If you ever get the chance, get to Gainsborough Folk Club. They are one of the best inclusive singarounds that i know of.
Les

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: paula t
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

Jim Carroll,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not naive enough to think that people don't make a judgement of a performance to themselves. We all do - otherwise we wouldn't listen to or perform music. What I meant was I didn't feel that anyone should undermine a person or undervalue their contribution to the social aspect of the evening just because we didn't happen to enjoy that performance.I feel that the attraction of a folk club is the sheer cameraderie of meeting together for the "odd pint" and a sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

I certainly will go to Gainsborough Folk Club if I get the chance. Thanks Les.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

Residents and regulars hold back and priority goes to the visitors some of whom we have never heard before.(The Snail)

What a refreshing change to attend your Folk Club and discover your policy.I have visited a number of clubs where the reverse is the case.One where the resident and presenter made sure he got in twenty five minutes, ten of which was trying to make jokes that did not work,one song that he learnt that day and gave up half way through as he forgot the words,a poorly sung song with a guitar out of tune and the rest of the time tuning it up.One song by their star regulars the rest by the booked group.An offer of tunes during the interval was rudely turned down,this is by a club who's rules policy was that there were no rules and no apologies to any visiting musicians offering to do just five minutes. Suddenly a Club has no visiting musicians and they wonder why.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:25 PM

Yes, it's the difference between organisers who care about the music and about people and those who are "up their own a***s!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

Gainsborough go round in a circle, and everybody is asked if they would like to contribute something, whether it be a joke, verse, song, tune. However if you say no, they respect that, but will still ask you second time round.
Some of the regulars, will miss a turn, in order to allow a visitor a chance.
Its a lovely family environment and a lot of laughs are had over the night.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

I can attest to Gainsborough being well worth a visit. It has become my 'local' when I'm visiting the UK and I'll always make time to get to at least one session while I'm there.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:46 PM

We're actually going to try to get to the "Eight Jolly Brewers" some time tomorrow, because, of course, it's the festival.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

The eight jolly brewers is not normally where the singaround is. Its in a much quiter location. 8 jolly can get very noisy, but it should be good fun.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM

We'll play it by ear!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM

Endorse entirely what V says re Gainsbro and If you are near Flaxton Nth Yorks on a wednesday ther is awonderful club there too.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:04 PM

Gainsborough go round in a circle, and everybody is asked if they would like to contribute something, whether it be a joke, verse, song, tune. However if you say no, they respect that, but will still ask you second time round.

That's how it works at the Beech, too. I haven't got much experience of the jump-in-when-you're-ready style of singaround & have to say I find them a bit intimidating - being an unaccompanist, I haven't got any equivalent for the prefatory strumming that tells people there's something coming, so I just have to leap in with both feet or else keep shtum.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

The other disadvatage with the "leap in" system is that melodeon players ony need a nanosecond to "leap in".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

Our club meets twice a month, one a singaround-style evening with a collection, the other a concert with a guest where everyone has to pay admission. Everyone is encouraged to perform in some way at the singaround, and if someone needs words in front of them, that is accepted. There are four 15 min. support spots on the concert nights, and if someone is unable to perform without a crib sheet, they are not invited to perform on these nights; likewise if they are not of a 'reasonable' standard, i.e. they can stay in tune, rhythm, or whatever is appropriate. There is a somewhat different audience for the concerts, and we feel that a paying audience is entitled to a certain standard. When the concerts were started, it was also a way of encouraging inexperienced performers to put a set together, rather than just doing one item at a time, and to work towards that requisite 'standard'.

We do occasionally run workshops, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those who need them most will attend...

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 04:48 AM

Acorn4
Mudcatters who support Gainsborough folk club will be at the concerts
i.e. Mr & Mrs Sooz, BBP, Pwitz, Travelling Audience, Georgiansilver etc

So if you get a chance to drop into the concerts!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 04:53 AM

"We do occasionally run workshops, but that doesn't necessarily mean that those who need them most will attend...

Barbara "

And Barbera has hit the nail on the head!

Some of may have come over as being unwelcoming to new talent - this is far from the case, most of us welcome newcomers and are happy to encourage and help beginners. However, it is not unreasonable for us to expect them to have done a little homework before attempting to play and sing in public, and nearly all of them do and good for them.

Some, however, will, after two years or more, still be at the abysmal standard they were when they started - making no effort to improve, learn the words, sing in tune, practice the music and are arrogant enough to think we actually enjoy listening to this shite week after week. We don't, and despite efforts to diplomatically offer advice and assistance, it ends up with a bad feeling in the room (to which the 'artist' is quite oblivious in most cases) and people thinking that if this is what we can expect from this club, there is not much point in coming - we have lost many a good performer because of this.

Another thing that gets on my tits is treating it as an acoustic club when it is a folk club. Do we want to hear sixties pop songs all night? Not me, I can live with the occasional one or two, it can be a bit of a laugh playing 'Honky Tonk Woman' towards the end of a good evening, but I don't want to be hearing Beatles songs all bloody night.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:17 AM

'I am all for encouraging people with even the slightest amount of potential, but some folk are clearly not cut out for it and need to be jumped on from a very great hight.' writes Silas.

This could be a new feature to bring a bit of excitement back into folkmusic.

Each folkclub could employ a jumper - on a sort of diving board. And if the singing gets really bad the crowd could start chanting - jump! jump! kersplattt! If the jumper missed. We could let him finish the song. We could raffle chances to jump on your favourite folksinger.

Beatles songs all night! Yum! Yum! sounds like my sort of night!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: evansakes
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:21 AM

"I don't want to be hearing Beatles songs all bloody night"

There's nothing you can sing that can't be sung (with a little help from your friends).

It's easy!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:58 AM

"Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H - PM

Piers,

well done you for having such a single minded approach. If that is what works for you, go for it.

Doesn't mean that's what works for everybody though, surely?"

(And in response to other postings)

Yes, people do more than one thing at the same time. The point of the story about Milt Kahl and Richard Williams is that one does one's best work when one concentrates on one thing at a time. I have found this to be confirmed in my own work. It's just a piece of advice, one can take it or leave it.

Richard Bridge, I play the guitar and sing at the same time, and I also play the guitar and the harmonica at the same time. If I could figure out how, I would do all three at once. It is a compromise. Life is full of compromises. I can play more complicated things if I'm not singing, and I can certainly sing better if I didn't play the guitar, because I play a classical guitar seated and one doesn't really sing well seated. I don't really practice singing anymore because of physical problems with my voice, but I love songs.

The consequences of eating and reading the newspaper at the same time are usually not serious (though the printer's ink may not taste very good). The consequences of not paying enough attention while driving can be fatal. One can twist and turn and justify and relativize all one wants, but there are traffic fatalities every day. One is free to do with this information what one will; I've said all I can think of on this subject.

I was rather annoyed about the quote from Seung Sahn, which I looked up and found in the internet. I could imagine that it was meant facetiously, as a rueful admissions that he had been caught out not practicing what he preached. However it was meant, I think it's likely to confuse people and not promote their practice of Zen. Yes, I sometimes do two things at once, without paying proper attention to either. Yes, I live in the real world and not a Zen monastery. However, if anyone is interested in my opinion on this subject, I don't think it's a good idea to do two things at once and call it "practicing mindfulness". One would only be fooling oneself.

As far as the (in my opinion, annoyingly trendy) expression "multitasking" (a.k.a. "multishirking") is concerned, I am a computer programmer and what multitasking means on a system with a single processor is that the multiple tasks are performed successively, but only one at a time. True multitasking can only take place on a system with more than one processor. There, multiple tasks can really be performed simultaneously. There is a significant overhead involved in a multitasking application. Lecture on POSIX threads and UNIX system calls available upon request. For a person, I think "multitasking" comes with a considerable cost, too. In life, one often has to concentrate on more than one thing at a time. It's not really conducive to doing one's very best work, though.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:21 AM

Do the people who would not be considered good enough to sing on guest nights know their status and do they come back to the club?

Simple answer - yes to both.

Complex answer. On a guest night we want to give the paying audience value for money, so we put the guest on for as long as possile - Usualy at least 2 x 45 minute slots. This means we are limited to letting 2 singers on in the first half and two in the second. As we have a wealth of excelent singers and residents plus regular visitors including such notories as Stanley Accrington. Geoff Higginbottom and Gary and Vera Aspey there is never any question of someone with a poor performance record even wanting to do a floor spot.

I really cannot understand why anyone but the most insensitive and dense people would feel that their poor performance warrant priority over paid artists. Particularly when people have parted with their hard earned cash to see someone good. There has never been anyone at our club, as far as I know, who has not understood that there may be people better suited to the circumstance than them and has not had the good grace to stand down when the need arises.

Does that answer your question John of Kemsing?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing.
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM

David el Gnomo,
               Referring to your second paragraph, I don`t remember you saying that floor singers were claiming priority over paid guests. I recall you saying that on guest nights only those who you considered competent enough were invited to perform; do you feel their presence would upset your guests?.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Calm Voice
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

What puzzles me is that surely most of these clubs will have some kind of committee? Here is where issues should be discussed like whether or not people should have mobile phones switched to a silent mode and whether people are allowed to talk while a performer is performing. The club organisers and in particular the MC for the evening, will then know what club policy to try and enforce.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:39 AM

Hopefuly when we visit any of your clubs
all this apparent snobbery and sillyness would not be obvious to us.
It seem to me that the atmosphere must be awfully uncomfortable with all this unpleasentnes going on behind the scenes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Well Tim you would be most welcome at our club. Just have a little consideration for the poor bloody fools that have to listen, and do your best.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM

From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:21 AM

"As we have a wealth of excelent singers and residents plus regular visitors including such notories as Stanley Accrington. Geoff Higginbottom and Gary and Vera Aspey [...]"

That must be handy, if anyone needs something notorized.

"There has never been anyone at our club, as far as I know, who has not understood that there may be people better suited to the circumstance than them and has not had the good grace to stand down when the need arises."

Stand down? Does this mean someone who had been told or led to believe he or she could perform a song or two might get "asked" to stand aside? If I saw a musician being treated with such discourtesy, I'd be out the door before you could say "Jack Robinson".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

"Well Tim you would be most welcome at our club. Just have a little consideration for the poor bloody fools that have to listen, and do your best."
LOL CHeers mate.
I guess you heard me before.
I never had the misfortune to be made to feel uncomfortable at any of clubs we have managed to get too,but reading the thread could give the wrong impression(or maybe the Right one?)to anyone thinking of being brave and having a go.
Honestly any would be performers out there,give your local club or group a try and I bet you will never look back.
We all have to start somewhere and at some level.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM

You've said it Tim. Good for you!

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:18 PM

Al - (23rd Psalm for those who don't know it)

As I was walking down the street one day
I saw a club on fire
There was a singer standing on a table
And he was sore afraid
Jump, you fucker jump
Jump into this tankard wot we are holding
And you will be all right.

He jumped,
Hit the stage
Broke his guitar's neck
For we had drunk the tankard

Laugh? We nearly shat!
We had not laughed so much since Lonnie died
Or Martin Carthy tuned his guitar in a trice
We are judgmental folkies
Aran jumpers
Ah -ah -ah -ah -ah soles.

WIth apologies to Derek and Clive live!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

Just for the record, Knockcroghery does not mean 'hill of the hangman'! The 'hanging' element of the name refers to a ring-fort perched on a hill.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:53 PM

Piers, I presume you did realise thet notorieties was the word and that you will forgive my sticky keyboard and poor typing skills. I can laugh at myself and my mistakes but really do consider it poor form to mock those less than proficient. In social skills as well as technical:-)

And no, it doesn't mean that someone who has been told they can perform is then asked not to. It means that our club residents and regulars all have enough common sense to understand that they cannot all get on on a guest night so they don't ask. Anyone who is ever invited to perform always gets to do so.

John of Kemsing - where do I say only those considered competent are invited to perform or that it may upset the artists? All I am saying is that when a very limited mumber of support spots are available we owe it to the majority of he audience to put on the best available. How else would we have been able to run the club sucessfuly for over 25 years?

I heard a good phrase yesterday. It's a shame that common sense isn't...

Hope this answers your questions but if anyone is ever in Swinton on a Monday just make sure that it is on a singers night if you want to make sure you perform:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

well Tim, I think you just have to face facts. Its not just folk clubs where people say nasty things behind your back - its life itself.

Take that David Cameron - nice chap, but some people think he's a bit of a tosser.
Gordon Brown - not content with a career as a number one song title for the Stranglers, he keeps popping up on telly. What a twat! he never makes me laugh.

If either of them came round our folk club and asked for a floorspot - well I suppose it would depend on whether the usual gang was on holiday. But really I'd say no! You're not in the tradition, and I don't like the cut of your jib.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust either of them with the raffle ticket money.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:48 AM

On the question of being well practised.

One or two postings on this thread have refeered to malking sure that you're well rehearsed before a singaround.

What I find is that, more often than not, I don't decide what I'm going to do before going to one.
Singarounds often have their own momentum and you can practice up a couple of songs to perfection only to find that they just don't suit the particular mood at the time, or perhaps you want to link to a subject someone else has done in a song.

I think, once you've got a reasonably broad repertoire, it's better to choose one that suits the mood of the moment, as long as you can make a reasonable job of it, rather than "I'm going to do this one and this one whatever..."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM

Oh yea - Tim says We all have to start somewhere and at some level.

I agree entirely. Some could start by practising a bit more but, be that as it may, that is exactly why we have singers nights on 28 Mondays a year. What amazes me is that even though there is ample opportunity to 'practice in public' on these singers nights there are people here complaining that we should put everyone on on the other 24 Mondays as well!

Walks of shaking his head disconsolately...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM

There you are,I knew you all couldnt be as grumpy,or as elistist as some of the posts read earlier.
Seems reasonable to try and please a paying audience dont it?
And all those other nights for the rest of us.
I think those that organise our music and venues for us deserve a bit more support and gratitude than we often give them to be honest.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 06:45 AM

I agree with the last post. When I go into a club I always aassume that it's the organisers' prerogative to run things how he/she/they want. If you don't like it there are plenty of other clubs.

Those that show respect and support for all do tend to get the bigger attendance though.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM

Thanks Tim, spot on acorn and...


300!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM

I `ad that Dave el Gnomo in my cab the other day and `e was looking well disturbed.
`e said, " take me to `arley Street please, I gotta` get some counselling"
I said, "What, working stress or something?"
`e said "Nah, it`s all them on that Mudcat. They want me to put tossers on the nights we got paid guests. They`re doin` my `ead in. What would you do with `em, eh?"
I said ,"What, the tossers? Charge `em twice the ante. You might get a few punters and guests rattled for a while but at least you`d be quids in!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:33 AM

Talking about manners, last night a woman who had won a 'free entry' in the raffle at the last concert, duly arrived with two teenagers for whom she happily paid admission, plus a toddler of two or so. They stayed at the back of the room and the toddler played on the floor, so there was obviously some thought being taken. Unfortunately, it's not possible for a child of that age to stay quiet, or understand why it should do so, for the best part of three hours, nor can you tell them to just whisper, so frequently a serious or quiet song was totally destroyed by said child's voice.

My own feeling is that children of that age should never be taken into this sort of situation where inevitably other people's enjoyment will be spoilt. What do the panel think?

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

when I began learning fiddle, I was encouraged, quite early on, to play at our folk club. I was desperatley nervous, scraped through my number and received rapturous applause. The members were and still are extremely kind and supportive. Other 'not perfect by any means' folks take their turns along with some very accomlished performers.

I've practised and improved (loads of room for more improvement) and now do a regular turn. Recently one of the 'accomplished' performers told me he remembered my first 'scrape' and said how well I was coming along. Can't describe how good thast felt.

I now play with a number of other folks in various settings - and I wouldn't be at the stage I'm at had it not been for those first awkward attempts and the kindness and encouragement with which they were received.

There are often people who sing or play at our club who you think really ought not, but they deserve their chance, and are greatly outnumbered by great performances and 'join-in-alongs'

If things get too excruciating, then the organisers should have a quiet, supporive, diplomatic word, but on the whole, let's give people chance to express themselves and do our bit by being considerate while others are performing, and prepare ourselves by practising and learning our 'spots'.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:56 AM

I was the MC last night when John Kirkpatrick was the guest. It took a bit of organising but I managed to get everybody on for a floorspot that wanted one.

Nobody walked out demanding their money back. John didn't complain. A good time was had by all.

One new face said he'd like to sing next time. We didn't thrust an application form into his hand demanding three references and a demo DVD, we said "Great. See you next week." He may be awful; he may be brilliant. From past experience of such things, he'll probably be OK.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

B%$*&^! Somebody eat my cookie. Last Guest was me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

We had kerfuffle on last week and I had 2 families bring along a 6 year old and a 10 year old.
I talked to them about keeping quite whilst the acts were on. I said that if they made too much noise, they would have to leave. The parents accepted that and I let the children in for nowt.
They werte well behaved and consequently no problems.
So it is possible Barbara, but the parents need to be made responsible and understand the terms that their children are allowed in.
Les

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:34 AM

One problem with children is that with evening sessions some folk humour can become rather ribald. Should watershed rules apply?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:53 PM

"Piers, I presume you did realise thet notorieties was the word and that you will forgive my sticky keyboard and poor typing skills. I can laugh at myself and my mistakes but really do consider it poor form to mock those less than proficient. In social skills as well as technical:-)"

I finished what I wrote below and I've been sitting here wondering how to apologize for my "poor form" and for mocking at what you wrote, and perhaps it's not nice of me, but I don't feel very apologetic. The truth is, I think you have some rather harsh words for poor performers   , or ones you consider poor and I think someone who's ready to dish it out should be prepared to take it. On the other hand, you didn't name any names and some people are sensitive about mistakes in spelling, grammar, etc., so I can see that you might have found my comment below the belt. So, I do apologize, though I still have some objections to what you've written, as I say below. I'm sorry that this isn't more gracious, but it's honest.

******

No, I didn't. I thought it might be a cross between "notables" and "luminaries" with perhaps an element of "notorious" or "notoriousness" thrown in. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I don't think "notorieties" is a word, either, nor do I believe that "notoriety" is a word that can refer to a person and "notoriety" isn't really something positive.

On the subject of hurting peoples' feelings, your postings rather left me with the impression that you might be a bit thicker-skinned, considering a couple of things you wrote, such as these quotes, which I have just cut and pasted, not edited:

"Poor performance is of course as discourteous as anything the audience does and, at the risk of getting shot down in flames as I have been before, I find some peoples performances can be downright embarasing."

"I really cannot understand why anyone but the most insensitive and dense people would feel that their poor performance warrant priority over paid artists. Particularly when people have parted with their hard earned cash to see someone good. There has never been anyone at our club, as far as I know, who has not understood that there may be people better suited to the circumstance than them and has not had the good grace to stand down when the need arises."

I do understand that a person running a club has to make sure he or she makes money and I can see the sense in some of what you write. However, to call it "discourteous" to get up on stage and try to perform or to use terms like "insensitive" and "dense" doesn't encourage me to seek out a folk club to perform. Nor does the idea of "being jumped on from a great height", for which, of course, you're not responsible.

"And no, it doesn't mean that someone who has been told they can perform is then asked not to. It means that our club residents and regulars all have enough common sense to understand that they cannot all get on on a guest night so they don't ask. Anyone who is ever invited to perform always gets to do so."

People who are invited. Perhaps I wasn't following the discussion, but I got the impression that it could be open-mike or a singaround (something I wasn't familiar with before), so that I wasn't referring to people who had been _invited_ to perform, but rather people who had shown up in the expectation that they could and perhaps had put their names down on the list. I imagined some "big-name" folk musician walking in the door and people being put to the end of the list. Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.

"I heard a good phrase yesterday. It's a shame that common sense isn't..."

I think most people show plenty of "common sense" when it comes to their own interest. I wish that kindness and tolerance were more common. I don't think anyone goes into the business of running a club with the idea of making a fortune and I do understand your point of view --- up to a point.

For various reasons, I haven't gotten out much in recent years and don't have friends to play music with. I love to play and have practiced a lot and would quite like to perform at an open-mike night or something similar. I do suffer from stage-fright and have some other problems so that this goal is not my top priority. Some of the postings in this thread have made me feel a lot less like doing it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

From: David el Gnomo - PM
"As we have a wealth of excelent singers and residents plus regular visitors including such notories as Stanley Accrington. Geoff Higginbottom and Gary and Vera Aspey there is never any question of someone with a poor performance record even wanting to do a floor spot."

Sorry to keep on, but I wanted to explain what really got my back up about this comment. It's the idea that someone wouldn't _want_ to do a floor spot because "excellent" performers, including several people of whom I've never heard, but may be fine people and wonderful performers. Nor do I know what a floor spot is, but I assume it involves performing and I'm sure I could find out without too much trouble. But why on earth should anyone expect that a person wouldn't want to sing his "Jimmy Crack-corn" or his "Big Rock Candy Mountain" just because someone "better" was in the room? That's not what music's about, for me, and certainly not folk music; at least, I'm clinging to the hope that it isn't.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:57 AM

You are quite right, Piers. I am indeed thick skinned and was in no way offended by your comment. I must disagree with your assetion that noterieties is not a word though -

no⋅to⋅ri⋅e⋅ty
   /ˌnoʊtəˈraɪɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [noh-tuh-rahy-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1.         the state, quality, or character of being notorious or widely known: a craze for notoriety.
2.         Chiefly British. a notorious or celebrated person.

The acts I mention would be quite pleased to see themselves refered to as notorious I assure you:-)

Perhaps I wasn't following the discussion, but I got the impression that it could be open-mike or a singaround Yes, you are quite right again. You was not following the discussion, but I am happy to shoulder the blame for that - I did not make it clear enough. Absolutley anyone who asks will get a performance spot on singers night. Whether they play guitar like Martin Carthy, sing like an angel or recite Vogan poetry while farting the theme from Eastenders. On a guest night however we cannot get any more than 4 support singers on. If five people ask to perform then we have a decision to make. Is it so wrong to decide to put on the ones who will provide the best entertainment?

Sorry, your last post doesn't make sense to me. It has nothing to do with people not wanting to sing big rock candy mountain because there is someone better in the room. Anyone and everyone can do what they want in front of whoever they want on a singers night. On a guest night however I am one of the organisers and have to occasinaly say no. Oh - and I have said no to notorieties as well as poor performers;-) How does that make me the villain of the piece?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

Ah, caught out by "chiefly British" again. Never heard of a person being a notoriety. And so, I suppose two would be a pair of "notorieties". It's a fair cop, guv.

"If five people ask to perform then we have a decision to make. Is it so wrong to decide to put on the ones who will provide the best entertainment?"

I don't know; I'm sure it's a tough call. It's your club, you can do as you see fit.

"How does that make me the villain of the piece?"

I don't think you're "the villain of the piece". My point wasn't the songs; someone "better" there wouldn't make me not want to perform, if that's what I went for and I would be disappointed if I couldn't. And I have been on the receiving end of snobbery in various kinds of situations. This phenomenon isn't limited to music.

You have your way of doing things and you're perfectly entitled to run them the way you like. You've got your audience and your patrons and if they're happy with it, that's what counts. I don't even live in the same country, so I couldn't visit your club even if I wanted to.
I get the impression that the "folk scene" is very strong and widespread in Great Britain and people there have a good chance of finding something to their taste.

It's somewhat different here (a medium-sized university town in Germany).

What you describe doesn't really sound like my sort of thing and I think it's quite possible that I'd be one of the ones who was asked not to perform or "jumped on from a great height". Why should I expose myself to that?

Sorry for having a go at you. I wish you continued success at your club.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:22 AM

Not wishing to start a new argument, or revive this one (laid to rest, I hope), but I recently heard a program on the radio about Jacques Brel. Apparently, an early review after he came to Paris read:

"Would someone please tell M. Brel that there are excellent train connections back to Brussels?"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

I love Jaques Brel stuff - There was a bloke called Cockney Eric at the Hare and Hounds who used to sing them in French. He was neither Cockney, French, or called Eric but there you go!

D,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:23 PM

With regard to kids at folk stuff.
They can be a pain in the butt at times due to being....KIDs.
We took our grand daughter to a few of V's happenings at Faldingworth LIve. SHe loved it, he was great with her, and because he made her feel welcome I think she settled down better even than she usualy does.
I do find it annoying when you get those parents who make the kids behavior everyone elses problem though.
(Tarquin, Jolian,Brittany take note.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

David - yes, I used to love Nigel (CE)'s Brel songs, although I remember him doing them in English. Haven't seen him in ages - don't know if he's still doing them.

Incidentally, I documented Jacques Brel's connections to the netherworld of George Formby impressionists here. "Where Heswall led, the Left Bank could only follow."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

Wher do I send the ten quid Tim :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

Tim,

I think I've met Tarquin as well!

He was the one whose favourite amusement at Priddy Festival a few years back was shouting abuse at people through the doors while they were in the portaloos.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

He he keep the £10 towards your charity for battered and misunderstood club organisers V.
Acorn4
We are so proud of you for not shouting back at him.
LOL
The little darlings!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:18 PM

Kids at Folk Clubs? I'd sooner they stayed at home with a baby-sitter. I have been approached nicely by families wishing to come along, and always ask their age and if they are well behaved. It used to happen when I ran ticketed events. I asked for the full ticket price for the child. If the parents were prepared to pay, then you could bet that they would sit quietly and listen. Well behaved toddlers and babies usually went to sleep under the table when we had a reesident with a young family. They grew up with an appreciation of folk music. Parents who allow their kids to run free ... I think they just want a cheap night out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM

I'm sure glad the old folks thought it was ok for me to be around when I was very small..otherwise, I doubt I would have grown up interested in being musical.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM

Kids, eh?

We used to take our duaghter Rachel to our "home" club, the Rainham Oast, and I suppose she sarted coming with us when she was 6 or 7. In due course she told us she wanted to do song (on a singers' night). We made her practice it at home. She was then 8.

I'll never forget Keith Pearson's face (for it was his PA rig at the club). Up went young ginger, looking a little on edge. Ah, he thought, sweet little girl, and edged the mic gain up a bit - and Jacqui started the guitar line and people could see it was going to be "Whip Jamboree".

"WHIP!" started Rachel - and Keith dived for the controls as the speaker cones bade fair to hit the opposite wall!

After that, she always got a slot, and he always said that she was the only singer in the club who it up ALL the overload lights on his little desk.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:15 AM

Completely barking mad you are, Pip. Now did I ever tell you of my great uncle, Blind Willie Higginthorpe, the only Lancashire coal mining blues man. Used to play the blues on spoons and paper and comb because he thought he was black? No? Ah well, another time maybe...

Yes, anyway, I think you are quite right. CE had a French wife or partner who used to translate for him so I do believe a lot of his Brel stuff was done in English. I do remember though him taking the Mount in Fleetwood by storm. I am not so sure if it was because he did 'The port of Amsterdam', in French, with choreography, or because the singaround had actualy finished two hours earlier. I suppose we will never know.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:18 AM

"With regard to kids at folk stuff.
They can be a pain in the butt at times due to being....KIDs."

We take our kids to a lot of stuff, especially during School Hols and at Weekends. They are aged 7 and (just) 9. Alot of you have met them, you can decide how well behaved they are.

If we couldn't sometimes take them to the folk club we run, it wouldn't be viable as it would cost us £20 for a babysitter each time. We let anyone under 16 in free to any events we run, we reckon it is important to look after the future. This has not caused us any problems yet...... this is supposed to be community music....when did kids stop being part of the community?

We quite often take them to other clubs/ festivals etc where we are performing....they both have a little part in the act if they feel like joining in.... the reaction to this seems overwhelmingly positive. But again, you judge.

They usually enjoy coming along and look forward to seeing other "folky kids".

I've just asked the kids if they have a message to the old grumps who think kids should not be allowed at folky happenings.......they said they should be allowed and they'll be good! They said they'll join in if you're any good or sit quietly and read their books or play on their DS's if they're not so impressed.

Paul (using Wendy's cookies)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

This is now me and not Banjiman using my name!

Re kids...would also point out that for some parents if they are single it is nigh on impossible for them to attend occasionally if they don't bring their kids with them. I am thinking in particular of a friend in our village who has only come along a couple of times to our Folk Club events for exactly this reason. She loves folk music but is sensitive to the audience (and to her children).

As a performer one just needs to learn to sing/play without being distracted, and as an audience member one needs to remember that we have all been children! If kids don't hear folk music when young then they are unlikely to suddenly get into it as adults...think of the number of folk performers who come from a heritage of folk performance in their parents, grandparents, etc..!

It is like all things - be reasonable, sensible and tolerant.

Wendy

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM

I went to a folk event last year where there were a lot of children ranging from infants to teens. I thought that they were all very well behaved. Many of them also joined in and some of them were remarkably good singers, dancers and musicians.

I think that, in general, we all have a responsibilty to ensure that children grow up to be happy and well-balanced adults. Most of this responsibility falls on the shoulders of parents and teachers of course. As a fully licensed (childless)'old git' my reponsibility only extends as far as trying to be a bit tolerant and not seeking to exclude kids from things unnecessarily.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gedi
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Pip Radish, I came across Cockney Eric in Chorlton Folk Club in Manchester fairly recently. What a perfomer - brilliant. I think he does his own translations though from what he was saying.

The first thing I saw him do was 'The Port of Amsterdam', in English. It was the first time I had heard anything by Brel and It was really good.

Ged

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

Kids at folk clubs

I'm all for encouraging children to take an interest in the music, but the onus is on the parent(s) to ensure that the children do not cause a distraction, not only for the performer but also for the rest of the audience, who may have paid to come a listen to the performer and ten find their enjoyment lessened by a noisy child.

We were at a house concert at the weekend and one family came with three children. They were fairly well behaved, but one particular child was clearly not interested in the performance and spent a good part of the evening chattering away at the back of the L shaped room in which the performance was taking place. Kendall finds it difficult to concentrate on the music if there are outside distractions and I know that this child did irritate him somewhat. I don't know if others felt the same way and the child's mother did tell him to be quieter as he could be heard throughout the room. He did quieten down but continued to chatter for the remainder of the evening.

Now, maybe at a song circle that might be tolerable, although I do believe that, whenever someone is performing, they should be given the respect of being listened to or, if you really don't like the performance, go outside and chat. However, in a concert setting, I do feel that children should not be brought in unless they are capable of sitting quietly and listening to the performer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

.......or maybe the onus should be on the performer to be capable of coping with a chattering child? It's really not that hard!

It doesn't sound like the chld was screamng or running about......

Paul (still using Wendy's cookies)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

Who was it in Hollywood who said never work with children and animals?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

The height of good manners, I was always taught, is to model them--without expecting them back in return. Therefore I urge people concerned about "folk club manners" to differentiate in their thinking between what they expect of themselves and what they hope/expect/want from others. One can only control the former; the latter you must negotiate or, I think, be showing very bad manners oneself.

Also-- the more we welcome diversity, as a society, the more we open ourselves up to different formulae for what may constitute "good" "manners."

~Susan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM

Paul - while I do welcome older children at my gigs there's no doubt that a small child - or anyone of any age who's not willing or able to give their full attention to the show - can be a problem if you aim to spellbind an audience at any point. Even a small noise at the wrong moment can completely break the mood you've worked so hard to create. I prefer to have kids at the front where I can engage them, and hopefully keep their attention, than at the back where they may not be listening and so might do something distracting at an unfortunate moment. At one village hall gig last year a small toddler made it impossible for anyone to concentrate on anything, picking the exact worst moments to cry out (just as I was trying to deliver the 'wings' line in God Speed, for example) and the gig had no tension or magic at all as a result. If the rest of the audience had asked for their money back I'd have sympathised. I had a grim night. Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM

Hey - Jim K! How yer doin'? I dropped something in your cab - did you find it? Now, I reckon you ae realy onto something there. We cound go a step further and charge massive ammounts for people who are realy crap and just want to song pop songs! I'm sure it would go down well in Japan. They probably already have a name for it...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

.......or maybe the onus should be on the performer to be capable of coping with a chattering child? It's really not that hard!

But why should other members of the audience have to be distracted by a chattering child, when they have paid to listen to the performer? If this was to happen in a theatre or cinema you can be sure that someone would want it stopped. Why should a concert be any different? A few years ago I got tickets for an open air concert by Jose Carreras and had to ask a group of people sitting near us to stop talking as I was more interested in the music than in what they were talking about. Where's the difference? If children don't understand from an early age the respect for a performer they are unlikely to change as they get older and will just take it for granted that they can spoil the enjoyment of those around them in this way.

There have been a number of times when I have wanted to listen to the music and someone has wanted to chat to me. I make it clear that I'm there for the music, but it is annoying and frustrating to be disturbed in that way.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Colin Randall
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

Never mind fractious children. When I ran clubs in basic North-eastern England pubs - Darlington, Bishop Auckland and Shildon - my problems were with adults

Darlington (The Spinning Wheel club) was pretty well behaved. Shildon was probably too small a town (though my town) to support a club at all, though we had our moments. But Bishop!

At our first venue, the Castle Hotel, the landlord complained about the state of the Ladies after our club nights. I cannot shed light on that! And guests/floor singers moaned about the noisy crowd. Tom Gilfellon called it the worst club he'd ever encountered. The bar was in the folk club room which didn't help, even though the room was big, and the landlord saw no benefit in closing it during performance.

When I saw the conditions imposed by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger for respect and order (and no bar) during their sets,   I realised I couldn't possibly have them at the club.

If only I had waited. Soon, we had a lad on the committee who was, well, a lad. V bright, v engaging but hard as nails. One night, someone started blowing at a mouth organ in the Gents - directly behind the makeshift stage - during a guest spot. Big Pete went in,
and suggested the youth be quiet. Youth gave one last, defiant blast. Pete responded quite forcefully. It is close on 40 years ago and I no longer remember whether it was a butt, and punch or a slap. But it ended with Pete telling him: "You're a good turn, but you were on too long."

I disapprove of violence, naturally. I approve of the fact that it seemed that night to work.

Colin

Salut! Live



,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

Snail
"So you pick on the one where I agree with you? "
More than a little snide I thought - have come to expect more of you; ah well! I answered what I was able to of your points minutes before we left - that's all I had time for. Will comment on the crass idea that all you need is the will to perform when we've unpacked and had a nights sleep.

And to our resident career critic who spends most of his time correcting spelling and replacing missing punctuation (of others, of course) -
"Knockcroghery does not mean 'hill of the hangman'!"
'Irish Names of Places P W Joyce' 1902
Knockcroghery, the hangman's hill, is a village in Roscommon, where there is a station on the Midland Railway; and there are places of the same name in Cork and Mayo.
'The Anglicisised Words of Irish Placenames Tom Burnell' 2006.
Knock - Hill, Croghery - The hangman
Of course, they could both be wrong, as could the residents of the area we have spent an extremely enjoyable three days visiting - what do the Irish know about Ireland anyway!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

Re children in clubs, concerts, etc. Please note that I was talking about a toddler who was too young to understand about being quiet and why.

I brought up two children through the folk scene, but did not take them into situations where they might disturb others' enjoyment unless I was in a position to remove them pronto if they did. The one who now has children of her own does exactly the same thing in her turn. *Of course* we should encourage children to get involved, but in a way and at a time when it is appropriate to their age. That was not so in this particular case.

As to the 'watershed', my attitude was always: if they don't understand it, it doesn't matter, and if they do, it's too late anyway!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:26 PM

There's a coincidence! I'm sitting reading Ben Harker's book 'Class Act' and there's Jim Carroll on page 185 and here on the internet. If I go downstairs will he be on the TV I wonder?

Even more curiously the passage I was reading at is relevant to this thread - it's in a section about the Critics Group from the mid 60's and I quote:

"From the outset, public relations weren't the groups strongest suit. There was confusion about how one joined, and some who expected to be included felt put out when they weren't asked. The entrance criteria were also unclear. Creating better singers was always central to the group's stated remit, and yet some who passed through the group could barely carry a tune - a contradiction that inevitably raised the eyebrows of MacColl's many adversaries."

Still you can't always believe what you read in books.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

Hey I wasnt saying keep the kids out just advocating the parents are made to take their responsibilities on re keepin em in order.
Re Mr and Mrs Banjiman (The Von Trapps) case in point the children compensate for the Banjo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM

Well, I will say keep the kids out, Tim. I've had dogs who are better behaved than some of the children I've seen inflicted on what is basically an adult evening; all too aften the parents (or PARENT -because they nearly always come with a single parent) don't give a stuff what anybody else thinks.

Simon (sorry - my cookies won't let me sign in)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM

Nick:
"If I go downstairs will he be on the TV I wonder?"
Do you mean to say you missed the three Traveller programmes - tsk - tsk.
Re the Critics Group;
I'm afraid that - with the best will in the world, Ben made numerous wrong assumptions in 'Class Act' - I filled three pages of notes of them while reading it.
"There was confusion about how one joined,"
No there wasn't; people were invited to join if it was thought that the Group's work would benefit them - and vise versa. There were numerous people who felt that they should have been invited and weren't, just as a number of people who were asked declined.
It was Ewan's group and he had the final say in who should be invited. He kept the numbers down to what he believed was manageable for the method of work he was using; the fact that we met in their living room was also a consideration.
If Ben had asked any of us he interviewed we could have cleared up this 'confusion' for him.
"yet some who passed through the group could barely carry a tune"
While the group's main role was work on singing, there were a small number who didn't sing, but who took on other work, research, organisation etc. Everybody was given a chance to sing, but some non singers were valued for their abilities and enthusiasms in other directions.
The group was a private workshop not a public club so the question of reaching a standard for performing wasn't a consideration.
An honest na accurate assessment of the work of the Critics Group has yet to be carried out.
I will happily send you a transcript of the presentation on the group's work I gave at Ewan's 70th birthday symposium.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

An honest na accurate assessment of the work of the Critics Group has yet to be carried out
Why dont you post one Jim?
As a 'dabbler' in folk music I keep hearing of the Critics Group - some good, some bad.
Everyone NOT involved seem to have conflicting theories which they usually put forward to 'back up' some claim they are making at the time.
As with the songs, the 'source' needs to be tapped & recorded before its too late.
I believe Diane was involved (& possibly others on this forum) & so a true picture should emerge.
Those of us too young, too far away etc. to be actively involved need the truth.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM

Guest Simon
Thats a load of bollocks.
I have only had Mom & Dad with child at my place.
You must be unlucky.
The majority of kids are well behaved, but once again, the minority ruin it for the rest.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:04 AM

I only learned about the work of the Critics Group many years later (doing other things). I recall getting drunk with Alex Campbell at a northern folk club in the mid-60s, and he made some very disparaging remarks about McColl and the Group, which I didn't understand (he was much drunker than me). However, this article seems as good a description of the Group's work as anyone could want. I can't say the ethos appeals to me, but I can see that the intention of preserving what was perceived as tradition was a worthy one to those participating in it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Guest Samuel Wild
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:43 AM

Richard Bridge,has mis quoted Dick Miles.Dicks post read .Iwas gigging before Eliza[that doesnt mean I am better just different]Richard   omitted the words in brackets.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:23 AM

Black Hawk - Will,
The Critics Group was in existence for around 8 to 10 years.
It got through a great deal of work, mainly singing, but also including songwriting, instrumentation, acting, research.... and related subjects.
It was NEVER the intention of the group to "preserve what was perceived as tradition"; the main aim was to help singers develop their abilities and understanding of folksong and to create new songs using the old forms.
I have something like 250 tapes covering the work the group did and numerous others relating to Ewan's ideas. It would be extremely difficult, nigh impossible to sum up the work on this forum, though there are murmurings of putting something together in the not-to-distant future by some of us involved.
I include everybody interested in my offer of the symposium notes - they're by no means comprehensive or anything like perfect, but they're as accurate and honest an assessment as I could manage.
Ewan's feelings on the Group were summed up well in Peggy's introduction to the Ewan MacColl Song Book.
Incidentally, Alex Campbell was one of the leading members of the "near enough for folksong" school of thought; don't think he was ever asked to join the group - doubt it somehow!.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:55 AM

Jim - I'd be interested in seeing the symposium notes - if they're available online at some stage, it might be easier for you to let us know where they are than email them out.

No - Alex was definitely a "near enough" man! He was a rough diamond, as I recall. He was very much a hail-fellow-well-met chap in many ways but - and this was one of his less pleasant traits - he hated being upstaged by people he thought were better than him or more likely to steal his limelight. Particularly guitarists.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:15 AM

We probably go to about a dozen clubs around our local area. We returned to the folk scene about ten years ago having been uninvolved for a number of years due to family/work.

A lot of the people in these clubs have become personal friends, and the social aspect of going to clubs is very important to us - virtually the whole of our social life centered around music.

The level of skill of these people varies enormously, but as they are friends we do not criticise if the performance is a bit on the weak side - I think many people who go to clubs subscribe to what we used to refer to in teaching as the "hidden curriculum" , and a lot will be lost if level of skill is overemphasized.

I you are listening to a paid guest that is different of course.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

I'd be interested Jim - it's always interesting to get a view of something from more than one perspective. The Harker book is quite interesting as at least a view on those times whatever his given perspective is. I must admit to have dipped in and out of it quite a bit.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Jim Carroll

More than a little snide I thought - have come to expect more of you; ah well!

Sorry, Jim. I don't really know the correct response when apparently being called on to defend someone else's point of view that I don't share.

Will comment on the crass idea that all you need is the will to perform...

Concerned that by voicing my own opinions here I might be bringing The Lewes Arms Folk Club into disrepute, I mentioned my suggestion that the minimum standard for performing in public was the desire to do so at our committee meeting last night. The general response was "Of course. That's what it's about. That's why we do it." followed by reminiscences from everybody about how they would not have got where they were without being encouraged to stand up and give it a try.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

Wild Guest, I see you type like The Captain. But my quote ended entirely before the words you say were omitted. That's what quotes do. They begin where they begin, and they end where they end.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Colin Randall
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM

Richard! That's the argument people like me - journalists - use. Are you not an academic? Don't academics jump down the throats of journalists for doing what you just describe (as I often describe, case by case) as perfectly legitimate?

Colin

Salut! Live

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

SO what is the veiw on Belching in folk clubs?
Is it mandatory in some societies?
Is it just bad manners?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:12 PM

Belching! Disgusting, Yeuch! Give me a good honest fart any day. Provied it is in the appropriate key of course...

:DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

This thread has covered quite a range of topics.

To pick up on the point about using crib sheets: I suppose that the line is drawn in different places in different circumstances. A classical orchestra would not be expected to play its entire repertoire from memory, but a soloist in a concerto probably would be. Jazz musicians often read from scores, even if they go off into improvisations. A singer who read from a score might look a bit naff- abit like those pub singers who go out with their backing tracks and all their songs and chord charts stuck on a music stand infront of them, but if you have a singer who's accompanied by a brass section or a string quartet, I think that it's acceptable for the musicians to read. I saw Bellowhead a while ago and, if I remember correctly, some of them were reading from scores- not surprising as they have some quite intricate arrangements.

Regarding performance standards; I have enjoyed many a singers' night and singaround, though I've also been to some that have been pretty dire.

I've only walked out once- this guy sand a self-written song that consisted of seven minutes of rambling lyrics over disjointed guitar chords. He then launched into a second song, stopped after thirty seconds, said "sorry, I f*cked that up" then started again. By this time I couldn't take any more, so I went out of the room until he'd finished.

A friend of mine only goes to clubs when they have a guest that he likes. If a bad floor singer comes on he walks out. His view is that he hasn't paid his hard-earned,over-taxed money to have his time wasted.

So it's a question of where you set your tolerance level.

Some clubs have a policy of running singers' nights that are open to all, and only having invited floor singers on the guest nights. This seems to work- certainly in my experience, these are the clubs that can more easily afford to pay guests, as they attract the largest audiences when they have one.

On a slightly frivolous note, there is a fine line between "bad" and "so bad it's good". In the latter genre, I've thoroughly enjoyed the guy who sat at the piano in the corner of the roomand bashed out "Off to California" in the style of Les Dawson, then followed that with "Deck of Cards". (Yes, he was serious!) Then there was the bloke who performed "Another Brick in the Wall", accompanying himself on a mandolin. (By "accompanying" I mean playing more-or-less in unison with his singing.) I'd have paid to listen to these two all night.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:33 AM

No, Colin, One is taking a quote out of context, the other is misquoting. I was accused of misquoting. Not guilty.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:08 AM

Snail,
I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.
We have heard a great deal about what being allowed to perform in public has done for the individual, no matter what stage has been reached, and precious little on what it has done for the audience/fellow performers/music - "me, me, me".
I'm sure that in some cases it is true that "if I hadn't been allowed to sing I wouldn't be where I am today.....etc". If it hadn't been for the army of 'practitioners in public' performing indefinable material they appeared not to think important enough to have worked it to an acceptable stage of performance, I might have continued going to folk clubs -as it was, I slung my hook and went off and did something else.
In my first posting on this thread I described a situation we were faced with at our club where somebody totally unable to sing in tune or remember the words of songs came back week after week and asked to sing. Over the year she did so she never improved; she ignored all offers of private tuition or assistance from our workshop.
She certainly wanted to sing - enough to write a letter complaining that we didn't give her enough floor-space. I'm sure if we'd offered her a six-song floor spot she would have leaped at the chance.
She met your criterion- she wanted to sing, the fact that she was incapable of doing so appeared to be beside the point - from her, and from your point of view.
Should we have allowed her to continue - should we have given her more spots - how about a six (or more) song spot - if not, why not? The desire was certainly there.
As far as I'm concerned, your 'wanting to sing' criterion is no different to Guest Referee's point:
"This is FOLK music we are talking about. FOLK sing/play folk music there are no standards, that's the fun of it."
For folk music, or any performance activity to survive there have to be basic standards. Is it being a Blue Meany to suggest that performers should be able to hold a tune and remember and make sense of the words BEFORE they take to the floor. If they use an instrument they should be able to tune it and play it competently. I am not asking for virtuosity, and I am not, as some people have suggested, talking about different levels of ability - I am talking of a minimum standard. Surely our music is worth that much effort?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM

Imagine being able to call on the talents of someone like Alex Campbell, and then not doing for some silly ass idea you've got about what is the doctrinaire approach to folk music.   Alex was extaordinary. He had charm by the bucketload and he lit up nearly every stage I saw him on. Towards the end, maybe not quite so much - but he could have taken Ewan's projects to a whole new level of public acceptance. In retrospect - what a dumb decision for anybody to make!

Incidentally - its history who decides whether you've got a 'silly ass idea about about what is a doctrinaire approach to folk muic'.

I have noticed that actual combatants in this war are stuck with the rectal thermometer view of the situation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:58 AM

"We have heard a great deal about what being allowed to perform in public has done for the individual, no matter what stage has been reached, and precious little on what it has done for the audience/fellow performers/music - "me, me, me"."

More wise words from Jim Carroll - I totally agree. Of course everyone has a 'right' to perform in public, if they are so moved, but with that right comes a RESPONSIBILITY not to alienate the audience. If a particular performer is a bit rough round the edges in the early days that's OK, and completely understandable, and even, more or less, acceptable. BUT if that performer is still ragged and unlistenable to a year (or two or three!) on, and it is obvious that he/she is not even attempting to develop his/her art then, I insist, that is NOT acceptable. It is also inevitable that more discernible audience members will be alienated - especially if the performer attempts to hog the stage (as far too many do).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:39 AM

I started playing in folk/folk & blues clubs in the mid-60s, played in them in the north and in London, on and off, for about 15 years, and then did different musical things for over 20 years. So I've come back to that scene in the last 2-3 years, I suppose. What struck, me when I ventured back in, was the huge difference in range of style of clubs, and range and style of performers. To generalise a little:

Then: unamplified; no music stands; material ranging from US/UK traditional unaccompanied to acoustic accompanied; blues; the odd jazz bits; some jug band-type stuff; "folk baroque" (remember that?)

Now: PA systems here and there; music stands here and there; wide range of material from traditional unaccompanied to Abba; anything goes policy in many clubs; much more general "open mic/open stage" events in pubs

In short, the whole scene now is really quite different in many respects from what it was 40 years ago and, as a listener and performer, it's up to me to find the environment I find the most congenial. There's one club, not a million miles from me, which has the atmosphere of a social club, rather than a folk club. Almost everyone brings their music from which to perform their two songs. The songs range from popular folk (fill in your own blanks here) to Abba songs and are, on the whole, undemanding and cosy. The standard or performance ranges from reasonable to incompetent. I find the whole thing insufferable BUT - for those people who go and meet each other, week after week, at this club, it's a warm and supportive environment. I just prefer a different ambience and luckily, in my area, there's enough variety for me to find it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:05 AM

WLD
Why is applying standards to what you do and like equal 'doctrinaire'?
Please explain.
Jim Carroll
PS Alex Campell - I remember him vomiting over the piano at MSG - now there's applying standards
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM

Well, I'm gutted.

We had a guy who had been banned by the landlord of our pub from singing as it was driving his customers away (and our members). He is actually a pretty nice guy, but he can't sing and he can't play.

He has been turning up regularly as a member of the audience and it has been nice to have him there in that capacity.

Last night he turned up with his guitar again, and proceeded to murder 5 perfectly good songs. As soon as he starts the room empties, people go to the bar, the toilet or outside for a fag - its is so obvious yet he seems not to notice at all.

What would you do in this situation. I think I am going to have to tell him bluntly that he cannot be allowed to sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM

"PS Alex Campell - I remember him vomiting over the piano at MSG - now there's applying standards"
Come to think of it - it was applying carrots and turnips.
I'm with Silas (again)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

I think in some ways, its to do with how much music is available these days. You can get most kinds of music on Youtube nowadays and - there ia lot of music available on podcasts, budget cd's etc....

But in the folk clubs of those days - if you met someone who had mastered or who was attempting to master a Bert Jansch song, or a Martin Carthy melody - it would be of genuine interest to meet someone else from another region of planet folk - the rest of the world was anaesthetised at home listening to the Val Doonican show.

Automatically you were brothers under the skin - because of your presence in a folk club - it was like a meeting of subversives and extra terrestials. The traddies broke all that up with their theories of having an exclusive vision of what is folk music. But I still feel the same way a lot of the time - we are still the last best hope of the world..

Nowadays - you can get any amount of recherche stuff sitting in front of your computer. The main thing about the people in folk clubs is - have they had the decency to at least try and not to bore you fumbling about with some unrehearsed crap - which they expect you to applaud and appreciate, because they once had an Abba or a Fred Jordan album. Really if they know most of the words and some of the tune - its about as much as you're allowed to expect.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

My previous post on minimum standards refers. I am largely impressed by the arguments advanced in this thread, and would endorse Jim C's post of 05.08, supra.

Wanting to sing is not enough. The basic ability to play your instrument in tune ; to have a reasonable command of the words, from memory ; to empathise with and 'read' your audience

    (e.g., in a folk club which might specialise in contemporary
    song

    [dreadful term - don't misunderstand me - I am
    not condemning this style of song, just that descriptive term]

    there's not a great deal of point in singing from the
    Tradition ; and if a club be principally a club which
    specialises in song from the Tradition, it might not be a good
    idea to sing that song wot I wrote on a piece of shit paper
    during the first interval)

without it seems like you've the poker up your arse; are the minimum standards, for me. I add another criterion which you may read later in this post.

I have never understood this 'good enough/near enough for folk', even from Alex Campbell in his heyday. The music which we all, on the 'Cat, love, deserves a leetle more reverence than this approach ; and, no, I ain't saying that you have to be a fucking Segovia before you play guitar in a Folk Club.

I can cringe, now, thinking back to when I first started. As the result of having had a "Sam Larner" moment (infra) I packed in playing bass guitar in a beat group (that ages me, don't it ?). Having had my "Sam Larner" moment - seeing Martin Carthy at The Navigation, Lancashire Hill, Stockport, October 9th 1966, I borrowed a guitar, but hadn't a clue what to do with the two extra
strings :-).

It might be, it almost certainly is, that perhaps audiences weren't as critical then as they seem to be now. Note that I speak only for myself, here. Perhaps it is as well ; I can remember times I got down off the stage thinking "I made a right balls of that and I don't half feel a big tit because of it".

I think, though, that by dint of hard graft and much practice, and a burgeoning love for songs from the Tradition which endures to this day, I did attain the minimum standard (above, and Jim's post of 0508).

Another part of the minimum standard, again, only for me : If you have an ego, the folk scene ain't a good place for it. I have heard Ewan McColl described as having an ego. I never saw this - respect and love of, and for, OUR music, yes ; and the expectation that those who had come to share it, when he and Peggy were in concert, would by their sheer presence, share that love and respect.

At the risk of thread drift, I have noticed that kids, dogs and farts have one thing in common : everyone thinks that their own are wonderful.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

Hell's Bells if the standard of "instrument in tune" is applied then virtually all banjo players, about the same proportion of 12-string-guitar-players, and nearly as many other guitar and mandolin players are going to have to be excluded. God help trombones.

Or maybe you mean "close enough".

And bingo, we're back. What is "close enough for folk"?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

Jim

we all have ideas. and we have to back them. But equally I think we must be aware that our ideas may be wrong, that new information may come up, or something....?

Be suspicious of anybody who's certain about everything. didn't Adolf Hitler and Margaret Thatcher's reigns teach us anything?

What was it Cromwell said, consider in the bowels of Christ, perhaps you are wrong....something like that. He had a point. Not a lot of self knowledge, but a point!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

at risk of being attacked personally,yet again,and having my posts edited to mean something different.
I agree 100 per cent with Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:05 AM

I agree with Jim, standards are important. However the level of that standard must vary according to context.

A club which runs as a singaround for all-comers, and which exists to provide a aupportive environment for novices to gain confidence and experience must inevitably expect some poor performances, and these will be accepted by the audience as part of what the club is about. On the other hand, on a guest night when a floor-singer is called upon to support a top-flight professional, it is not unreasonable for the paying audience to expect better-than-average-amateur standards. On those occasions the inexperienced and incompetent should not be expect to be given a slot - unfortunately, far too many on the folk-scene seem to believe they have a God-given right to perform in all circumstances.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM

Well, I don't see any club, wether its a singers club or whatever should be used as a platform for bad singers, why should it, and why should people have to put up with it?. Its fair enough to give new talent a chance and support and nurture it, but people who are bleedin hopeless should just accept that they can't do it and go and do somthing they can do.

I would love to be ably to draw and paint, but I accepted a long time ago that I would never be able to, so what is the problem?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

Slight thread drift here but I once heard of a singaround session in which one of the participants claimed to be so shy and nervous that she played a tape of herself singing! This could be apocryphal - but considering some of the weird and self-indulgent crap that I have heard recently ... perhaps not?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

Maybe manners are better here in S.Wales. Nobody has yet told me not to sing, or that I'm crap.
I sing unaccompanied, sometimes with a sheet of the words, sometimes without. Sometimes I sing with my eyes closed (reviewing the coming lines!).
If I have to leave the room to get a pint or two (it has been known to happen) I don't walk out on some newby, or during a song, I wait until a singer I know is being introduced, and who I know will not think it's a comment on his singing/playing ability.

Different strokes for different folks!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:47 AM

well everybody's got better manners than us English. Actually I think it goes with the territory - peoples feelings getting hurt. others being being disabused of the idea that everything that they emmit isn't pure gold.

Sometimes I've been hurt, sometimes I've been the hurter. As you get older and fight more campaigns - you get less vulnerable. No matter how one walks on eggshells though, theres always some bugger taking offence more times than the Horse of the Year Show. Sometimes they nurture a grudge for decades cos you went for a wee at the climax of their act.

On the other hand, you can sing Abba, Abba dabba Honeymoon, unaccompanied songs in Gaelic, Woody Guthrie - anything you want, most places. and I rather like that aspect.

I think its nice when you can tell they are singing the song because they can relate to it and they like it. Rather than they are doing their duty to the great tradition of boring everyone shitless.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM

Last night he turned up with his guitar again, and proceeded to murder 5 perfectly good songs.

Five? Five???

Did everyone there who wanted to sing get five songs? Did everyone there who wanted to sing even get one song?

I think the answer to this one is to be a bit more assertive with the MCing. Call on people one by one & see that everyone gets the same amount of exposure. At least that way the poorer performers don't get more exposure than the good ones.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

yeh five songs! it does seem a lot. On singers nights we have time for a couple each. One guest nights just the one. To actually hold the stage for five songs requires minstrelsy skills of a fairly high order.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM

Well, Pip, it was a quieter than normal night and the bugger kept jumping in everytime there was even the slightest lull. WE don't have an MC - but the bastard will be jumped n the moment he arrives next week! I am auditioning jumpers this week, if anyone is intertested, we supply the step - ladder...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:10 AM

Oh for the simple joys of a rock concert... pay your money, listen to the band, get drunk, go home. Folk music is so goddamned complicated...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM

Oh, for the simple joys of a folk concert . . . pay your money, listen to the act(s), get stoned, go home.

What's complicated about this ?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:29 PM

Bryn, agreed. That's concerts, though. The other stuff is the people who are tying themselves in knots on this thread... what I mean is that when you pay your money to watch a rock band, there's no-one worrying about raffles and residents and floor singers and when to go for a piss and how to eat your crisps and who'll be insulted about when you go to the bar and what the organiser thinks and who's on the committee and the age of the audience and whether Bert's sung a song Bill likes to sing and ... need I go on?

It's just a bunch of people listening to some music. It's ok!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

Everyone should be given a chance but it soon becomes evident whether there should be a welcome return, and that's the point of 'no return'. If you are paying for a performer then you expect certain standards. I have paid to see some performers (never having heard them before) and having heard them decided not to hear them again. As previously mentioned ,different strokes for different folks.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

I'm not sure there is very much disagreement on the point of standards underneath it all.

Outside of a paid concert performance or paid guest night I reckon pretty much anyone who has contributed here would accept that people, while they may not have a right, would at least be allowed one or two goes at singing in public - otherwise how would anyone start? And a percentage of them/us move from that small beginning to become performers at some level or another. And if it's good - or if people recognise a smidgeon of something there - they will no doubt be encouraged.

The problem seems to lie in dealing with the people who reckon that that the quality of that first (usually pretty shakey) performance is something to try and aim for in the future (and not really be too concerned if they drop short).

What's really hard is telling people. We are pretty accepting where we are - but I think it true to say that the standard is reasonable, or rather has become reasonable over time - but have drawn the line on occasions. Most notably 'the mandolin player'. I won't bore you with details but loud mandolin playing out of key and out of time across everyone's singing and playing was so out of line that it needed to be said. He didn't come back.

Most people do and know what the unwritten rules are where we play and hence choose if they return or don't. Most do. The people who want to be the centre of attention and be the only one playing all night probably don't. But we've had evenings with a full room of people who have joined in ensemble when appropriate, made a lot of noise singing choruses, romped through some session tunes but still have the good grace for the most part to shut up when someone sings an unaccompanied song.

It's just manners. And manners and the ethos of places are set by who runs them, what they care about and what they choose to enforce.

If someone comes to us and decides to sing out of turn or whatever then it will be met (by everyone not one person) with "whoa, hold on it's not your go. This is how it works here..." And we go from there.

The first time I ever sang outside of my local environment was at the White Hart in Mickleby. I doubt I have ever been more nervous in my life and it was 'just' a singaround. At the stage I had probably played the guitar for something like 35 years and had played in a band in the past. Nerves (and too much to drink caused by those nerves) led to me forgetting all the words; the guitar part; and in the end I folded into an embrrassed heap and gave up (it was Ewan MacColl's 'Fathers Song' which I thnk I'll sing tonight). But I didn't get banned or prevented from playing and I'm glad of that, and people were very nice and understanding.

I have to agree that it's strange where people stay at the same level of competence year in year out. And it's hard to know what to do with them. I think we are quite lucky in that of the group of people who come to Flaxton most are reasonable and the very odd one who has been grim have tended not to return (the guy who did Rikki Don't Lose that Number on a very out of tune guitar and matching voice hasn't been for a long time - he at least had the gift of allowing us to play the 'guess what he's singing' game with quite amusing results; the look on people's faces when the penny dropped that it was a Steely Dan song was precious).

I am not a wonderful singer, player and performer and there are oodles better out there so it's hard to sit in judgement (though I did have the balls to stick a link in this thread to me singing!). There are people I hear who are no doubt good but who I really don't enjoy because of choice of material, or delivery, or tone of voice or whatever - I put up with them because they put up with me and as a group we do what we can for standards by trying to demonstrate a reasonable level. Most of the people who have stayed with us have got better so it seems to work. The feedback I have from people outside is that it's decent place to come and that the singing and playing is at least competent pretty much across the board.

I do think that there is a bizarre thing that goes on though which is to overpraise people who are frankly grim. From my own experiences I know that it is hard for some of us to get up and do things even if we feel reasonably competent and practiced, but occasionally someone will play a faltering simple tune on something like a mandolin badly and be met with that curiously exaggerated roar of approval that is normally reserved for four year olds or virtuosos. Always found that one weird. If they thn come back for the next five years and play the same old bollocks I do think you only have yourself to blame.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

Fish Fingers with chips!! A favourite.

Captain Birdseye I'm sure noone is looking to attack you but I think you've made your best effort with that post to almost guarantee it.

Mea culpa. Take this as a lighthearted bit of amusement at your expense and an opportunity for a terrible thing that I just couldn't resist - especially as I 42.5% agree with your post.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

"I am not a wonderful singer, player and performer".... actually Nick, I think your pretty good!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:38 PM

Jim Carroll

I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.

Really? We find it fundamental to what we do. If you weren't so out of touch with what's happening in the UK, you might realise that we are a well respected club that does a lot to promote traditional music. We love folk music (and I think you would find our definition not far from yours) but we also love people. I get the impression that some of the negative views on this thread come from people who don't like people very much.

I'm sorry Jim but the woman who plagued you at The Singers Club forty years ago doesn't come to the Arms so we can't use her as a basis for our policy. We can't suppress the many who may have much to contribute for fear of the occasional bad egg.

Neither do we have Silas's song murderer. I think that that experience vindicates our attitude; if you make it clear that everyone is going to get their turn then you keep the pushy types under control.

We have heard a great deal about what being allowed to perform in public has done for the individual, no matter what stage has been reached, and precious little on what it has done for the audience/fellow performers/music - "me, me, me".

No, Jim. "Us, us, us". Every floor singer is a member of the audience. Every member of the audience is a potential floor singer. Every booked guest was once a floor singer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM

One other thing which can happen sometimes is that when a performer is on the weak side, but is , nontheless , making a gallant effort, they often get a bigger round of applause than an experienced performer to take account of the struggle that is going on and the bravery, perhaps, of performing for the first time.

I have known some peeople to misinterpret this and think that they are a "superstar born"!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM

We can't suppress the many who may have much to contribute for fear of the occasional bad egg.

Absolutely agreed, Bryan, even though we have disagreed many times on similar points. There is no suggestion or even any justification in Jims argument, or my earlier ones for that matter, for excluding anyone based on not having seen them or fear that they would be a 'bad egg'. What we are saying is that there are certain performers who, for the sake of the 'wider picture' should be restricted to singers nights etc. until such a time as they get to this very easily achieved minimum standard. There is nothing difficult at all about holding a tune, remebering words or playing an instrument acceptably well. It is just down to practice.

You are very lucky at your club in that, somehow, you manage to get everyone on all the time, even on guest nights. We, for instance, do not want to do this for various reasons. Neither of us are right or wrong. Just different. Because we have more singers nights than guest nights then our philosophy is to allow singers nights to be 'come all ye' but insist on this minimum standard on a guest night when we only ever get 4 support performers on at most. No-one minds. If we get to the situation where a newcomer comes on a guest night we have to play it by ear. More often than not, provided we have not already 'booked up', they will get a spot. Often they are invited back as guests.

As I said earlier - You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time. Not all of as are that lucky but, after over 25 years experience of running the Swinton club, I can honestly say that we must be getting it right most of the time. I cannot speak for Jim but I suspect that with his experience he must be getting it right as well. Remember that there are different ways of getting it right and yours may not be the only one.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Bryan Creer,at the risk of being called a nodding dog,YOUmake avalid point,we all had to start some where.this is where good organisation and good mcing comes to work,a weak singer should be followed by a strong singer or resident,there is as you undoubtedly know a skill to running a night.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

Sorry Dave but you don't seem to have read either what I have said or what Jim has said and I really can't be bothered to go through your post correcting all the misrepresentations. I'm sure your club is excellent and I have never suggested otherwise.

You - Remember that there are different ways of getting it right and yours may not be the only one.

Just so, which is why I object to Jim telling me that our way is "crass".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

I didn't say your way was crass- I said the criterion for anybody singing in public was that 'they wanted to' was crass.
Nor did I suggest that singers should be excluded "based on not having seen them"
Please don't put words in my mouth - talk to the hand boys, talk to the hand!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Jim Carroll

I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.

and for Dave's benefit -

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

I must say, Bryan, I did read both Jims post and yours thoroughly and I did interpret Jims comments pretty much as he describes them himself.

I really can't be bothered to go through your post correcting all the misrepresentations

Oh, please do. It is very unfair of you to say I am misrepresenting something and then not say what! I am not sure what I did in my post to warrant such a negative reaction as I was I was trying to be possitive and non-confrontational. If the post did offend you in some way I need to know how to put things right. I am very much a people person after all:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

I find it difficult to believe that in Snail's club nothing is done to discourage a singer who was quite rightly allowed to sing for the first time simply because he/she wanted to but sings very badly and then proceeds to do nothing whatsoever by way of practice (outside the club)over the subsequent weeks/months to improve their performance

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Joe Steel
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM

We have run a successful club in Trosley, first at "The Two Kings" and then " The Full House" for over 30 odd years and we haven`t lost our capacity audience at all. We overcame the "dodgy" singer business by learning from the ice skating competitions when they were first on t.v. Three committee members have white numbered cards, from 1 to 10. After each artist sings or plays they display their card that they feel gives a score out of 10 for performance. An average is calculated and anyone not reaching the aggregate of 7.5 is invited ted speak with our professional music master( £22.5 per hour). As I said we have grand audiences, but there again, it could be that the best bitter £1.33 a pint!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:15 PM

£1.33 a pint!!

Wow! Sounds like my sort of club. Where was it again?

Off to the Royal Oak FC soon. You never know I might get a floor spot so I'd better do some practice.

I'll get back to you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

Bryan (there are enough insults flying around without silly names)
Thank you for providing such an excellent example of "me, me, me" – or - if you insist "us, us, us".
"the woman who plagued you at The Singers Club forty years ago doesn't come to the Arms"
Well, aren't you the lucky ones – she came to our club for over a year, met your non - criterion more than perfectly by wanting to sing to the extent of complaining that she wasn't allowed enough songs. I know she went to other clubs (though I couldn't help but notice she wasn't offered a spot any of them - it seems they adopted the standards that you seem to find objectionable, or at least unnecessary).
You seem to have overlooked the fact that this is a general debate on the application of standards, not a discussion on the Lewes, or any other Club.
You skated neatly around the question under discussion, so I'll ask it – what would you do if she turned up at your club? What if she turned up with a handful of mates equally unable to sing but desirous of doing so? Would you turn over a substantial slice of your club evening to a group of non-singers?
Sorry, a rhetorical question – of course you would." That's what it's about" (isn't that what your committee said?)
Anyway; how do you know she never visited your club – I never named her or described her. Do you never get bad singers turning up and asking to sing?
Incidentally, I had no intention of criticising your club or its policy; I've never been there, and have always heard good things of it. I repeat – the idea that 'all it needs is the will to sing' is crass, whoever says it – that's as far as it goes.
"Every floor singer is a member of the audience. Every member of the audience is a potential floor singer. Every booked guest was once a floor singer."
No argument with this whatever as long as 'potential' is the operative word. Realising that potential by putting enough work in beforehand is the deciding factor for me, not practicing in public until you it right.
"I get the impression that some of the negative views on this thread come from people who don't like people very much."
I can't speak for those who wish to see standards established at the clubs, but personally I find this (once again – from you on this thread) deeply insulting. Can you please tell us what has led you to this extraordinary conclusion?
In fact, the opposite is the case; as far as I'm concerned, it is those who don't see the need of some level of 'quality control' who show contempt for the audience, the singers, and the music.
I believe that it is out of respect for the people who make the effort to turn up, for the singers who put the work in beforehand, and even for the wannabe singers who seem prepared to throw themselves to the wolves before they have got their singing together, that it is essential that club evenings are not allowed to fall below a certain level.
It is also out of respect for the music that I would suggest that it is brought up to a reasonable level of performance before it is presented publicly (and not laid open to ridicule, be it by the media or just by any stray passer by who might drift in (and who knows, who might just become a regular – and a 'potential floor-singer) – for me, the music is at least worth that.
Walter Pardon spent about forty years loving putting his family repertoire together, memorising and writing down the songs and recalling the tunes with the help of a melodeon.   When asked to do so, it took him about four months of fairly consistent work to fill a tape of songs to be presented to Bill Leader. On numerous occasions when he appeared at clubs in the south of England he stayed with us. He carefully prepared his list of songs and sang them through again and again till he was satisfied with them. If he gave what he considered a bad performance (I never saw him do so) it upset him – in other words, he applied standards right up to the point of his stopping singing in public. He stopped singing in public when he felt ho coul;d no longer maintain that standard.
One of the hardest parts of collecting was not getting the singers to part with their songs, but invariably it was persuading them that they had something worthwhile to offer and that by singing into the microphone they weren't going to humiliate themselves. They constantly apologised for "not being able to sing"; "you should have been here forty years ago when I had a voice", "You should have heard my brother, he was the singer of the family".
All of the people we met who passed down the songs to us valued them enough to do their best to 'get them right'.
If they thought it worth making an effort for, why can't we?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM

I have been involved with music and singing for over forty years.
I cant think of a day[apart from when I was ill],that I havent played or sang,today I must have spent three hours playing and practising,I consider myself privileged to still be able to do so.
not everyone is as fortunate as myself.
it is great to see people making their own music,but it is important for all performers to set themselves standards.
if someone occassionally forgets a word[it happens to everyone],it is acceptable,we are not machines ,but I feel it is much better not to have a set of printed words.
lets cast our minds back to the heyday of folk clubs,you had to get to the club early to get a floor spot,you had to be good to get a floorspot the next week.
furthermore no one had crib sheets,or performed with printed words.
standards were high,clubs were full.
clubs were well organised,a weak performer would be followed by a strong resident,it was a system that worked.
I would like to repeat that as a guest at someones club,I would consider it ill mannered to say anything to any performer,who used printed words.,IF they asked my opinion,I would try and explain my viewpoint.
admittedly the scene has changed,there are a lot more singaround clubs than there used to be,but even in this more amateuer environment, isnt it better to strive towards a higher standard.
To make the effort to perform without a script.,and fail, is better[In my book] than not trying at all.
I would rather hear a performer with a limited repertoire perform the same songs if he/she did them well,than see someone give new songs a lifeless rendition from a script.
I am not saying that it is impossible,to perform well with a script,it is in my experience rare.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

And I don't know how they can disagree with you both (Dick and Jim) but sadly they still keep going with their ringbinders and music stands making a complete mockery of a once vibrant medium.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Some of the posts on this thread are beginning to sound like the dreaded OFSTED!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:56 PM

it looks like the thread has gone off on a tangent, then gone on/off and on/off ........

it was originally about how people in the venue behave while 'artists' are performing. Should standards of performance be a separate thread?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

Oh that OFSTED could sum up a problem in one sentence like Captain Swing :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM

How you doing, John? Not seen you at Swinton for some time. Mind you, with all then undecypherable Geordie sings I'm not quite sure if you are good enough...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM

I claim 400 AND page 9:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:11 PM

???? 401 = 400 some ground-breaking maths here

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM

Ahhhhh - I got the 400th and 401st post so the end of page 8 ad the start of page 9 are both mine. Today Mudcat, tomorrow the world...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:43 AM

Surely there is a difference between believing that people should care enough about the music they sing or play to practise and to seek to improve (on the one hand) and on the other hand believing that one is sufficiently superior to sit in judgment on others and exclude them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

Richard,
It's been asked numerous times, here and elsewhere, and has yet to be answered - would you apply the same criterion to painting, acting, sculpting, opera, jazz (or even being an electrician)....... if not, why not? Is the singing of folk songs an inferior pursuit to all of these?
I believe that it lies within the abilities of most people to sing - as long as they are prepared to put in the time and effort.
'Superior', 'judgement' and 'exclude' are all loaded words that only
serve to avoid the main issue. Nobody, as far as I can see, is attempting to "sit in judgment on" or be "superior to" or "exclude" anybody - we are simply asking that a performer reaches a certain (not particularly high) standard before they sing in public - what is wrong with that?
For me this whole question revolves around a piece of contempt that has plagued the revival from the word go - "it takes no effort, thought or talent to sing folk songs". Do you believe this? If the answer is 'no', why is it unreasonable to expect that a new singer first puts in the effort, thought and time in order to develop their talents to the level where we can all sit back and enjoy their singing?
Again I ask, don't we owe at least that much to to the people who made and passed down the songs.
Folk song has yet to find its place in the sun in Britain, it will never get that place without the work being put in.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

A poet who comes to a local club never practices a reading because it removes the spontaneity (so he says).
He misreads words, cannot scan correctly & cannot perform even a limerick without a book.
He asked my partner how many songs I know from memory.
She said she didnt know but it was at least 200.
He said,'Is that all, I have about four hundred'.

I did feel I was wasting my time learning the words & practising guitar before performing if I could satisfy the audience just reading from a songbook.
Individuals have their own personal standards & its up to the organiser to decide if the audiences tolerance level matches the performers.

To get back on thread - manners in folk clubs should be based on 'Do unto others ....'
If I was at a rock concert I still would try not to disturb others with my activities.
Manners really!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:30 AM

Jim - ask what you owe - that is your decision.
I ask what I owe - that may be a different decision.
Who gave you the right or power to decide what someone else owes?

Take our own Tone Deaf Leopard for example: the bel canto brigade recoil in horror, but that is not the point of what they do. At their best they can be side-splittingly funny, at least one of their tunes to a well-known song adds well to the darkness of the events in the song, and others do perform their words to well-known songs.

If you apply "standards" as you seem to wish to do, you do indeed exclude them - as Sue has explained above.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:30 AM

Richerd - There is indeed a huge difference between the two. I don't believe anyone on here is suggesting they are that good that they can exclude anyone. There is also a huge difference between excluding someone altogether an restricting where they perform, which is all I am saying. Let us say for instance we have someone at our club who cannot hold a tune, cannot remember words and cannot keep time. Let's call her Mureil to protect the innocent (My Mothers name).

Now, Muriel is more than welcome to strut her stuff at any one of our singers nights, of which there are 28 a year. She can also go to a host of other clubs, including Lewes, and get on anytime she wants. What I will not do is put her on main stage to support Bellowhead in front of an audience of 300 people who have paid £15 a ticket. Now if that is being exclusive or superior to anyone then I'm afraid I am guilty as charged. So are most of the music promotors in the country.

There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club. OK, we only charge £3 and only get 40 in but the quality should be just the same. On a singers night with free admission and the where the auience understand that anything goes it is a different kettle of fish.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Musket
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM

Perennial subject...

I always used to say that a folk club is somewhere you can get up and enjoy yourself and always get an appreciative audience who actually listen rather than treat you as background entertainment. It is great for that, but when you do branch out to other types of performance, you get a bit of a shock...

Many years ago at a folk club I was involved in, a locally well known performer who shall remain nameless did his bit and then, sat at the front, got his book out to read whilst others were performing! Didn't even get the message when he was asked, from the stage, if he had ever been chucked out of a library for singing?

Folk club audiences are a broad church to say the least, but just like any other artistic endeavour, you get people who are too focussed on themselves to notice the bigger picture.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM

Richard, you are asking; 'Who are we to sit in judgement'. You may as well ask, "Martin Carthy, who does he think he is, giving master classes, what does he know". Some of us do KNOW a bad performance when we hear it.

Well, we, or at least I, am someone who has been involved in folk music for many years and this does help, but it does not take a genius to recognise a poor singer. However, poor singers can improve if they are prepared to practice, practice, practice, but some, sadly, don't. Some will not accept and constuctive critisism or advise and some, no matter how hard they try just cannot sing.

You seem to think that the Folk Club is just for singers, it isn't. Most of the audience is made up of listners, not performers and it is not fair on them to allow rubbish turns who can't be bothered to do any preperation to inflict their personal egos on them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: trevek
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM

I don't really have a problem with people using word sheets as long as they know the song already and it isn't just th first time they've sung it. After all, would you go and listen to the London Philharmonic and complain that all the string section have the dots in front of them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM

Good Grief! I can't keep up. Thanks for the breath of fresh air, Richard and thanks Captain Birdseye for the comments about MCing. I'm not sure that I'm very good at it but the only way to learn is by getting up and doing it. It's not something you can practice alone at home.

I don't think I have the energy to go through every point but since Jim seems to think I've insulted him, I'd better reply to that -

I can't speak for those who wish to see standards established at the clubs, but personally I find this (once again – from you on this thread) deeply insulting. Can you please tell us what has led you to this extraordinary conclusion?

All the talk about "jumping" on people, all the loathing poored out by some people for those not seen to come up to the standard. Your own attitude is, to say the least, unsympathetic. The woman you described sounds as if she had mental health problems. If she has ever been to Lewes, she must have radically changed her behaviour because I've never encountered anyone like that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

The great debate rages on and on, as it has for years. Folk club manners is at the heart of it. Being very adult, polite, friendly and supportive, we duly applaud everyone who has the bottle to stand up and sing in front of an audience. Anyone who has done it will testify to the buzz - that's what gets you up there in the first place, and that's what ensures you return for more.

Being able to distinguish between polite and enthusiastic applause is (for some) the difficult bit. If folks displayed their true feelings and refused to acknowledge something they know to be truly awful by not applauding, or by reacting in a similar way to that of football fans in response to a lousy offside call, then the poor performer would soon get the message.

Is that what we want for our community? Maybe we should reach out for perfection - root out the weakest performers and show them the door; we should raise the minimum standard level and apply some points system for determining position in folk league tables?

Way to go .... Hmmm

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:40 AM

You are fortunate Snail, and I think we help run similar clubs, usually the lesser the talent the greater the aggression if this particular person is refused a spot.
I may have mentioned this elsewhere but at a club I help run some thirty odd years ago we had a lady, who was a good friend of us all, who turned up one week with her guitar. Naturally we gave her a spot and it was quite obvious to all, except her, that she had nowhere near mastered her instrument. She came a few months later with her guitar and the results were the same; this became more frequent until members of the audience began complaining to us. So on one occasion she was deliberately passed over for a turn; rather than sending out the message she was waiting for me to open up the next week so that she would be sure of a spot, I explained that we had a guest but I'd see what I could do thinking that I was on pretty safe ground. The guest didn't turn up but I still missed her out and at the end of the night she demanded to know why and I had to explain as gently and politely as I could that she was nowhere near the standard to play in public where an audience is paying good money and expects something good in return. She really wwent off on one at me saying how far ahead of unaccompnied singers she was and much better guitarist than some of the bluesmen (we had two of the best in the North as regulars) who "just strum" she was. Plus the last time that she played at our club the room was dark and she couldn't see the notes.
After that, plus a letter to my home from her husband saying pretty well the same thing only in a more temperate manner, she never came back to the club and certainly never spoke to me again prior to me leaving the area.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:46 AM

its when they wipe their bum on the raffle tickets before throwing them at you, then you have to worry.......

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:30 AM

Sorry to go on about this Bryan but in a couple of posts now (yesterday - 1255 and 1330) you allude to me misrepresenting you and then post something completely beyond my unerstanding 'for my benefit'. Would you please do me the courtesy of explaining exactly how I have misquoted you and why the quote you gave at 1330 is for my benefit.

I realy am trying to be positive here but it is getting very difficult in the face of hints and allegations. Us Gnomes are not known for subtlety or getting hints. Tell is at it is so we can all understand :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:32 AM

DaveS

You are fortunate Snail,

Then I'll just have to accept that I'm fortunate. In my experience, the vast majority of people who want to sing or play can; many are good; a few are excellent and one or two get bookings on the strength of a floorspot. The duds are rare. I note that you have to go back 30 years for your example and Jim 40. They are not the basis for our poliy on who can or cannot sing.

If someone I don't know turns up and expresses a desire to sing I can't say "No. I have no way of knowing if you are any good and I can't take the risk of putting you on in front of a paying audience." I and the audience would have missed many excellent performances if I had done so. Perhaps we would have missed a few poor ones as well but the alternative is to stick to the same safe and known performers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

I'm sorry David el Gnomo but you mangling of what I said was so transparent that I assumed it was deliberate and needed no explanation so, if you insist -

There is no suggestion or even any justification in Jim's argument, or my earlier ones for that matter, for excluding anyone based on not having seen them or fear that they would be a 'bad egg'.

If we haven't seen someone before, all we know about them is that they want to perform. According to Jim, to give them a floorspot on that basis would be crass. We have to be sure that they have put in the necessary practice and achieved the right standard. How we are supposed to know that remains unclear.

What we are saying is that there are certain performers who, for the sake of the 'wider picture' should be restricted to singers nights etc. until such a time as they get to this very easily achieved minimum standard.

Are you including Jim in that "we"? It is not what he is saying. What he actually said was -

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

I don't think he approves of your policy. I think he's telling you that you are ******* patronising.

Back to you -
You are very lucky at your club in that, somehow, you manage to get everyone on all the time, even on guest nights.

Never said anything of the sort. Here is an example of what I have said -

What actually tends to happen on busy guest nights when we can't get everybody on is that residents and regulars hold back and priority goes to visitors some of whom we may never have heard before.

I have said similar things on previous threads.

You again -

As I said earlier - You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time.

If I have to explain what is obnoxious about that remark, I don't think I'll ever get through to you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bru
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM

I'd like to pick up on something Captain Birdseye said at the end of one his last posts.

I can't sing to save my life - I know that - and nothing (other than a massive bribe) would induce me to get up in front of a paying audience and sing, because I'm a long way from good enough. But that doesn't stop me having a go in the anything-goes-pub-singaround environment, and I'm rarely the worse singer there.

It's the issue of reading from a sheet/score/whatever that I find interesting. Due to a combination of a fairly good memory and sheer bloody-mindedness I tend to learn everything I play or sing; this isn't snobbishness, because I honestly don't go puce green with rage everytime I see the same singers reading off lyrics/chords sheets. But I've found that - for me,anyway - reading/glancing/staring at any sort of sheet music or lyrics while I'm trying to sing, usually has an inhibiting effect that's harder to break than actually learning the song in the first place.

The one terrifying point about doing it this way, though, is that when your mind does go blank, and the words have disappeared like frost in strong sunlight - there's no escape route, other than singing another verse, or even another song. But - of course - just try remembering one.

Glad I'm a rank amateur.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM

Tell you what Mr Snail, let me know where your club is and I'll send all the shite your way and see how you feel then...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

Jim, for evidence to support my comment that "I get the impression that some of the negative views on this thread come from people who don't like people very much." please see Silas's last post.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM

Sorry???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM

Referring to your fellow human beings as "shite" suggests you don't like them very much.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

Hello Snail.

My my, how easy it is to jump to silly conclusions. You have adequetly demonstated that to have a reasoned argument with yourself is fairly pointless.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM

Some performances ARE shite, you cannot get away from that, and that is what I was referring to. Mind you, some human beings are shite too, I can name names if you want....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: stormalong
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:17 AM

This thread seems to have drifted from manners to who should or shouldn't be asked to perform...

I've very rarely encountered bad manners in a folk club. In one instance a guest appeared only for his own slot and spent the rest of the time outside, but he was essentially a pub entertainer rather than a folkie, so that may be down to culture rather than intentional rudeness. The same may be true of those who chat too much while others are singing, but I do agree with an earlier post which suggested that it's the responsibility of the singer to dominate the room, although that's easier to do with a loud voice or a big squeeze box.

As regards who should or shouldn't be called on to sing, it's good to have singaround nights where everyone gets an equal chance, but on guest nights a good MC will exercise some discretion after, ideally, giving everyone at least one opportunity to sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

Can I address each of your points by number please, Bryan. Saves time all round. I am refering to your post directly adressed to me and timed at 10:08 today.

1. That is indeed what I wrote. How does it mangle anything you had previously said?

2. No, I am not including Jim. 'We' refers to Swinton Folk Club.

3. Pointless considering point 2 above.

4. Quite true. I accept that you did not say that you get everyone all the time. What you actualy said on 26 October at 8:56AM, as an unnamed guest, was I was the MC last night when John Kirkpatrick was the guest. It took a bit of organising but I managed to get everybody on for a floorspot that wanted one. Apologies for assuming that you can do the same thing every night. It does raise a question if you cannot, though. How do you get round not being able to fit everyone on those occasions when there are too many?

5. If 'you seem particularly well blessed at your club' is an obnoxious insult then I welcome such insults with open arms. When people behave obnoxiously towards me I usualy expect things like 'Fuck off you short arsed git' or 'Stick that fucking squeeze box up your arse'. Maybe in Lewes people are more gentile and behave obnoxiously in a way I don't understand. Please enlighten me:-)

Now, back to my original point. Can you tell me where I have misquoted you, other than the slight misunderstanding I have apologised for in point 4. What I should have said, although to me this sounds more insulting than the first, is "You are very lucky at your club in that you sometimes manage to get everyone on, even on guest nights. I have never achieved that." Can you also tell me why, as a people person, your posts to me are seemingly confrontational while all I have done is said good things about your organisational skills?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Calm Voice
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

I went to a concert at a festival. Two performers on stage. One of them read his newspaper while the other performed. The one who was reading immediately went down in my estimation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM

I personally think that Folk Club manners should really be called Folk Club aims & rules.

Each venue decides what they expect from an evening and should make that very clear at the start of the evening and certainly to newcomers. Better still, if you have a website, put it on there also (that way people who are coming along for the first time, know what to expect). Put posters up on the walls of the venue stating the rules & aims.

We state what our requirements are on our website and on the front of the diary which is handed out at each event. The MC also mentions it at the start of the evening.

Above all enforce it.

I had a young couple come along one night, who as the night wore on, started to get louder and louder, to the point where they were distracting people in the room. I walked quitely over to them and explained the situation. They decided in a nice way, that they didn't like having to be quite, so they discretely left, shook hands with me and have never been back. That's life. It would have been nice if they had come back, but I would rather have the 98% of the audience happy, than bowing down to the minority.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM

In support of the esteemed Senor El Gnomo, can I add my tuppence in that when Pip Radish and I visited his folk club on the night that Captain Birdseye was strutting his enjoyable stuff, both Pip and I (at least one of whom was sporting a most unseemly tank top), despite being untried, untested outsiders on a guest night, were offered the opportunity to cough our way through a tune. Pip rose to the challenge admirably, whilst I declined, recognising that whilst I might get away with my harmonically-challenged qwarbling for one short song at a singaround, I wouldn't wish to abuse my hosts' generosity by inflicting my shortcomings on their paying public.

As a result of many factors, but not least my timely self-censorship, a grand night was had by all. As a member of the listening public and an avid self-censor, I welcome such reciprocal self-restraint in others of my bruisingly limited ability. I don't particularly think it's the job of the club to impose a musical omerta on the impoverished of tunefulness but I do believe a little bit of insight into one's own strengths and deficits goes a long way.

In essense, had I sung in response to Dave's kind invitiation, I would have been the one with the bad manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM

Thanks, SC. Can I give you the tenner later. I'm a bit skint at the mo...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:25 PM

Mr Gnome, if I have to explain what I actually said rather than what you think I said every time, we'll never get anywhere. Please go back and read all my posts.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Nice post Mr Cringe. It's interesting to find that the policy at Swinton is actually very much the same as ours despite el Gnomo's insistence otherwise.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

I have read and re-read them Bryan. I still don't undertand why you are accusing me of misrepresenting you. If you cannot explain it to me can someone else please?

At least give me a clue as to what is obnoxious about You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time and tell me how If I have to explain what is obnoxious about that remark, I don't think I'll ever get through to you. fits in with your record on tollerance.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

Oh - BTW - I have never insisted that our policy is to exclude newcomers. Where on earth did you get that idea? Can you show me where I said it or is this, heaven forbid, some sort of misrepresentation? :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

Or maybe. to make matters perfectly clear I should re-state our policy.

1. On a singers night everyone who wants to perform gets on.

2. On a guest night we have decided that we will only put 4 support spots on. 2 in the first half and 2 in the second. This is to ensure that the guest gets a fair crack and that the audience who have paid to see them gets good value.

3. In the event that the 4 spots are taken and someone asks if they can perform we have to decline them purely on the grounds that there is no time.

5. When anyone new arrives in the club on a guest night they are asked if they perform and if so would they like to do a support spot.

6. If more than four new people arrive it is on a first come first served basis except when someone has phoned in advance - as has happened.

Hope this makes it clear. I have never said we do anything different.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:57 PM

I keep forgetting things - Like Columbo on the TV:-)

If, at the start of the night, we have four well practiced performers and my earlier theoretical Muriel, I have no qualms about asking the for well practiced ones. Muriel, in one or two different guises, has never complained and is quite happy to carry on performing on a singers night. Everyone is happy. No problem.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:00 PM

OK Dave, one last pull.

It is the "and seem to be able to get it right all the time" part that is particularly annoying. Since you only know what happens at our club from what I have said the implication is that I am claiming that we "get it right all the time". I make no such claim. We have a policy and a philosophy which we try to implement as best we can. I think we do quite well but nobody is perfect. Your tone comes over as sarcastic and paints me as arrogant.

That is what I found obnoxious.

At least I am not alone. I wonder who it was you were getting at in your post of 23 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM when you said "another mudcat member who now seems to believe that Swinton Folk Club is the worst in the world".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

>>You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time <<

That sounds very complimentary to me Dave.

I think Bryan has got the wrong end of the stick and in all honesty, you should both stop posting about each other as that is getting very close to flaming which is not really acceptable.

Unless Bryan thought you were saying he had big breasts or that the audience were well blessed. <

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM

You either have good manners....or you don't....

Folk music has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:29 PM

What about good folking manners, Pete:-D

Ahhhhh - OK. I understand. You think I was being sarcastic? Well, honestly, I wasn't. I was complimenting you on your efficiency and ability to achieve what I have been unable to do. I don't know how my tone can come over as sarcastic in written word but, hey, who am I to judge. I am very rarely sarcastic but should I ever lapse I will always use emoticons to indicate I may be saying something other than what is written.

The Villan seems pretty much to have got the gist. I still don't know where I misrepresented you.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Girl Friday as a Catfish
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

It seems that Amber has opened a huge can of worms on which shoals of mudcatfish have bitten. The length of this thread rivals that of TDL's,and in only a month or so!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Dave eG,
I'm curious - there seems to be a fundamental problem with two of your statements above:

"On a guest night we have decided that we will only put 4 support spots on. This is to ensure that the guest gets a fair crack and that the audience who have paid to see them gets good value...

When anyone new arrives in the club on a guest night they are asked if they perform and if so would they like to do a support spot."

How can you be sure that the audience gets good value if you've never heard the person you put on? And surely, if you put four complete unknowns on, there is a danger of getting four completely crap spots. Unlikely, I would hope, but it is there.

I am not trying to be confrontational here - I run a club, but on guest nights, the support spots (four, like yours) are pre-arranged, and I would only change that if the person arriving unexpectedly was known to me or others in the club to be of a sufficient standard to be good value to the paying audience. I am not saying that all our support spots are brilliant, but they are known to be capable to the point of not embarassing themselves, the club or the audience. And I do believe that poor performers are embarassing to the audience as well, and that may be part of what drives them away.

Our open nights are just that - open to anyone to perform, even if they are of a poor standard. In my opinion, it is up to the MC to make the atmosphere such that everyone enjoys themselves whatever the performances are, although that would probably not be possible long-term with a majority of poor performers.

By the way, I thought you were being sarcastic to The Snail as well. I now take your word for it that you weren't intending to be. :-)

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

How can you be sure that the audience gets good value if you've never heard the person you put on? And surely, if you put four complete unknowns on, there is a danger of getting four completely crap spots. Unlikely, I would hope, but it is there.

We can't, Barbara. That is what makes running our folk club so exciting:-) If I knew what was going to happen every week I probably would not turn up!

More seriously - we generaly know who is going to provide support - Just like at your place. And like your club we always assume that anyone asking for a support spot is going to be good. On the open nights we do, as you suggest, leave it open to anyone to perform. It sounds like our clubs are run on a very similar basis - Where abouts are you so I can all in when passing? :-)

As to me sounding sarcastic - how can anyone deduce that from the written word? I realy need to know!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:23 PM

And I just posted 444 - two thirds of the way to 666. How good is that for Haloween:-) I am at a party where I am a pirate, Mrs el Gnome is a mad woman (nothing new there...) and we have various moths, scary dolls, wizards, witches and even a snake charmer!

Just off to sup some more green goblin.

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

Well, call me old fashioned but i think its a lapse of etiquette when someone lets out a loud smelly fart, says 'better out than in!', sniggers, and then slaps you on the back in an over familiar manner.

How will we ever attract fragrant people like mary Archer into folk clubs, with behaviour like that. We have mudcatters who meet people like that, and her very talented husband. What a first it would be if Jefrey would write us a folksong!

I think this is where tradtional folk music could learn something from Leonard Cohen, who never does anything coarse or unpleasant in public - in fact he always looks very nicely turned out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:57 PM

The Villan

Unless Bryan thought you were saying he had big breasts or that the audience were well blessed.

Didn't realise you'd been to our club, Villan.

Come on Dave. Tell us who you were getting at in your post of 23 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM. I need an ally.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:38 PM

Bring back Avril Betts

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:37 AM

I hung on to see if there were any answers to the questions I asked Bryan and Richard in my last few postings - there weren't of course, and I should have known better than to expect any.
I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening over to non-singers, after all isn't that "what it's all about".
Similarly, I'll have to take it as read that Richard believes folk song to be inferior to all the other preforming arts I mentioned (or maybe that should be 'activities' - for the benefit of those who "reach for their gun at the mention of the word 'art'"). In the absence of information to the contrary, I'll also have to assume that he feels he owes nothing to the people who have taken the trouble to keep our folk songs alive and pass them on to us.
Incidentally Richard, whether we care to admit it or not, we all exercise judgement on other singers "That was a nice piece of singing", "She could have done this/that to it to make it work better", "That accompaniment was too loud", "Jesus, where did he get that crappy/superb text?.....". It's called having taste, and we'd stop thinking and feeling without it. Whether and how we give voice to that taste is a debatable point, but lets not pretend we don't have good/bad opinions on others' performances.
So if we apply standards we lose people - tough - if it means we improve our clubs maybe that's not altogether a bad thing. Do we really need people who are going to 'take their ball home' if somebody comments critically on their singing, or suggests that it might be necessary to hold a tune or learn the words before they stand up in front of an audience?
It's threads like this that make me realise how much we have lost over the last few decades. For all the shite thrown at MacColl and Seeger and their 'influencees', they really did 'bake exceedingly good cakes'. I never failed to come away from one of their evenings without my head and my ears buzzing with well researched (or thoughtfully written), excellently sung songs - all worked on in advance and brought up to a (at the very least) presentable standard. Admittedly, they didn't turn their clubs over to non-singers - they were selfish bastards like that, but, in order to make up for their selfishness, they did establish, help set up or or encourage the setting up of workshops to bring on new singers. I can't recall being involved with a club since the the late sixties which hasn't either organised a singers workshop or had one on hand if required.
The alternative here seems to be that we throw the clubs open to any 'Florence Foster Jenkins' who turns up "wanting to sing". After all, what does it matter if the resident evenings are made abysmal with poor singing; there'll be a guest along in a couple of weeks to pick up the pieces.
All this convinces me that it is not so much a case of 'dropping the baton', but more a competition to see how far into the ditch you can throw it.
It seems to me that unless standards are applied to improve the performances and the image of folk song at the clubs, where it matters the most, it will (deservedly) continue to have the piss taken out of it, will remain as a fifth-rate activity, and will die as a performing art (sorry - activity). Sure, it will survive in archives such as the V.W.M.L. and The National Sound Archive; it might gather a bit of dust there, but hopefully in a few decades time somebody might come along with a duster, clean it up and realise what a diamond we've thrown away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

good points Jim.
workshops are an excellent idea.
I notice Lewes Folk Club,are one of the few clubs that do this.
recording oneself,is a way that singers can learn to improve.
in my opinion workshops are useful for singers/ musicians to improve their technique,a good starting point.
it is debatable whether singing with interpretation/ feeling can be taught,[imo]it can to some extent.
of course all singers performances will vary every time.
Pat Mckenzie made a very valid point[some months ago]about a singers interpretation of Lord Randall,how the traveller singer was putting all her feelings about being settled into the song she was singing.
singing is about expressing[whats happened to you] and I am not sure that can be taught.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Spot on Jim - is there anything else to say - I doubt it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

I can't remember, Bryan, sorry:-( It was on one such discussion when I mentioned that I told people to expect anything on a singers that someone told me I was not doing a good job of selling the club! If I could remember I would tell you but it is too far back to look up now.

You have not said where and how I misrepresented you yet. I suppose paying a compliment that went a little far is misrepresentation to a certain extent but surely that is not what you are refering to is it?

Jim - You are right. To perform properly you do need to achieve a minimum standard and if all performances at folk clubs fell below that then I would be 100% behind you in saying that poor performance will kill off folk clubs. However (there's always one of them isn't there:-) ) There is only a very small proportion of people at our club who fall below it. I can honestly say that amongst the dozens and dozens of people who have sung at our club only two have fallen well under. There are a number who will also sing self penned angst driven dirges and other stuff that is far from my cup of Earl Grey but they do, at least, perform them well.

Funny thing is that, of late, we have been getting more people at singers nights than on some of the guest nights! And I would say that over half the audience changes between the two. I would suspect that we get far more Critics Group on guest nights and far more Muriels on singers but I have not yet confirmed that theory!

Anyway, point is, I find myself in the position of agreeing with you entirely about the minimum standard but running a club that does offer a bit of flexibility for the untrained. Maybe our singers nights are more like workshops? They are certainly very informal and people can either 'Take the stage' (Well, empty bit of carpet) or perform from where they sit. We chat a lot and have offered help and advice to a number of people. Some ignore it. Some improve. None have, as yet, taken offense. Well, maybe the guy with the electric guitar turned up too loud took the huff when told to turn it down. But even he returned a couple of weeks later:-)

At the end of the day some clubs run for years. New ones open. Old ones close. All for different reasons. The standard of performance may have a lot to do with it but the style of the club, it's organisers and guests play a part. More importantly, it's audience decide it's fate in the end.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:16 AM

well i don't agree.

Its the human dimension and the absence of 'standards' (sounds like a bloody OFSTED report!) that make it edgy and worthwhile and something dufferent from all those other middle class pools of iniquity and mediocrity that get all the arts council grants.

When someone's shite, they look for the escape clause in reality and sure enough they wash on the shores of the folk club. Then true enough you get the nightmare scenarios where you have ask them to piss off and torment someone else - eventually.

the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it.

And yes, I DO think that 'wanting to' is important. In fact I think if you don't wake up every morning wanting to do folkmusic (even if life has other activities mapped out for you) how the hell do you hope to hit the ground running when you do stand up there to sing.

And I love that bit:-

if we lose people ...tough!

We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round.

Folk music without the folk is nonsense. And live with it - a lot of 'em can't sing for toffee! But its still worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round.[quote Wld]
so why havent the whole population of Ireland, pissed off?why is it that in Ireland, traditional music is appreciated.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

But surely wanting to on it's own isn't enough is it WLD? It should be accepted that those who want to sing should be allowed to but somewhere along the line they will want to be good as well won't they? They should want to please other people shouln't they? OK - they may do it just to please themeselves but there is a word for someone who uses self-satisfaction extensively isn't there? :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:10 AM

Sorry, I didn't think that there was anything I needed to answer.

"would you apply the same criterion to painting, acting, sculpting, opera, jazz (or even being an electrician)....... if not, why not?"

The case of an electrician is an obviosity (or so would a driving licence be). Some activities require things to be done in particular ways for safety reasons.


Painting - (I assume you mean picture painting not house-painting) - I'd let anybody do it any time for anyone - I am wholly uninterested in it. Indeed every so often one does see exhibitions and I think "Why is this here?", but if someone wants to put thier piece up, whynot? Indeed if one applied "standards" there would be large swathes of artists whose visions were it seems wholly unaccompanied by any standards of draftsmanship or depictive ability, and whose work was rejected and condemned by the established of their days, but are now hailed as genius.

Acting - again I don't give a damn, but what I have seen of amateur dramatics again shows that if someone wants to participate they are permitted and encouraged. My late wife used to run the youth section of an Amdram thing and I recall two young wannabee actors (actually they were there becase the girl/boy ratio was such that it was like shooting fish in a barrel) who were dyslexic. Ordinary standards of "read this and recite it" would wholly have excluded them. One turned out to be a gifted comic who stopped one musical he appeared in so that the audience could laugh themseles nearly sick, adn the other won a best actor award at a Duncan Rand festival for a sinister and subtle portrayal of a yong hoodlum (adjudicator's words, pretty closely).

Sculpting - again I don't give a damn, but the whole modern sculpture movement depends on rejecting the "greek statue" approach and does not I think depend on technical ability but upon some vision (that I wholly fail to see).

Opera - its function is the bel canto. In that it differs from folk music. But if one applied standards of appearance or acting ability to opera singers many would fail.

Jazz - in general today technique seems to be much admired, but do you remember the experimental jazz of teh 60s? It was impossible to discern melody or rhythm, and I certainly would - if asked "is this music" have answered "No" - but in retrospect it is (in parts) hailed as of excellence. Was it not said of Charlie Bird Parker that if one deconstructs his work much of it is out of time and out of key?

The fact of the matter is that folk song is different. It is not just history (although I am keen to know if the historical element - whereas many others are not). It is not just performance. It is the outlet of the community, and in fact you geld it if you do not take it (like Cromwell's portrait) "warts and all". Or, to put it another way, "Let the people sing".


"Is the singing of folk songs an inferior pursuit to all of these?"
No. But it is different and it does not depend on "standards". If it did, and one had to smile like a beauty queen, dress from Brooks Brothers, intone like Pavarotti (who, incidentally, I think was often sharp), enunciate like John Gielgud, emote like Nirvana, it would not be folk song.


"I believe that it lies within the abilities of most people to sing - as long as they are prepared to put in the time and effort."

Some can sing better than others. I would kill for John Barden's golden tonsils or Ian Bruce's driving ring to the voice. But I do what I can with what I ahve got and mostly I think I have found ways. But I know one snooty bitch whowhen running a song session will call at least two morons before me because they have been members for longer - and she alleges I sing through my nose. Not her call My singing. I'll do it how I want (and I am shedloads bette than she is anyway, much as I disapprove of self aggrandisement). But it's not my call or yours or hers to say that someone may not sing. It intrinsically involves placing the decider in a position of power over the singer, which power may be wrongly used.




"'Superior', 'judgement' and 'exclude' are all loaded words that only serve to avoid the main issue."

THe are words of disapproval in this context - but they are the right ones. You, like that bitch, are putting yourself forward as the arbiter - and that can only be on the basis that you know better (which you may, but that's for someone else to say, not you). What you exercise is undoubtedly judgment. And the consequence is that you plan to and do exclude those who do not do it your way. You in particular have paid your dues, and I value what I know of your work, but it is so long since you have walked in the shoes of someone with less history that I think you have forgotten the trepidation involved when one starts. Your judgment, and it is the only word I can think of for it, does shut others out, and thereby wounds their feelings.

"Nobody, as far as I can see, is attempting to "sit in judgment on" or be "superior to" or "exclude" anybody - we are simply asking that a performer reaches a certain (not particularly high) standard before they sing in public - what is wrong with that?"

It is internally self-contradictory. You will bar those of whom you do not approve.


"For me this whole question revolves around a piece of contempt that has plagued the revival from the word go - "it takes no effort, thought or talent to sing folk songs". Do you believe this?"

What an aunt Sally! The better you are, the better you are - although the polish should not replace the content.

"If the answer is 'no', why is it unreasonable to expect that a new singer first puts in the effort, thought and time in order to develop their talents to the level where we can all sit back and enjoy their singing?"   

I would accept "wish". The word "expect" is wrong. In the light of what you say about the standards of young singers these days (yes, that is me putting up an aunt Sally too, but you see how it looks) plainly you do not in fact expect any such thing. You expect that many will NOT do the things you wish they would. Me too, but I don't say that I have any right to stop them doing as they do. You in fact go further than expecting. You seek to impose your view.

"Again I ask, don't we owe at least that much to to the people who made and passed down the songs."- asked and answered.


"Folk song has yet to find its place in the sun in Britain, it will never get that place without the work being put in."

Actually I think it did, probably in about the early or mid 60s (when I was not interested, far too keen on rock then) one it had sloughed off the fascination with Americana and we ahd got the Young Tradition and Martin Carthy etc getting into English folk song. Now Martin Carthy's work was always technically excellent, but if you listen critically to the first Young Tradition album, it would not be cmmercially released today without a lot of technical cleaning up - ragged beats, wobbly pitch, Peter Bellamy missing falling closing notes time and again, verses omitted from well known songs.

It wasn't the work that made it great then, and it isn't "standards" that make it marginal today. As I said, listen to karaoke nights, plenty of dross there and words on a TV screen, but thronged.

It would be so nice if we were all bettter than we are. But it does no good to dump on people because it was better in your day.

Sorry, Jim. I admire you and what you have done. But there are other judges or wannabee judges who do not merit the same respect, and if you take the power to judge so will they.






And as for you Al - as a good socialist I utterly condemn your view that the working class cannot achieve academic excellence, or that it ought not to interest them. Folk song is set in and springs from the foundation of what made teh working class. Remove it and they are one step closer to rootlessness, altough we all need our roots and to knwo them. I wish I could sing and play like you, but I wish you thought like me!


Sorry to go on so long.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:47 AM

I'm confused. Why is the above from Richard Bridge signed Jim Carrol? :-S

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

Could they, perchance, be one and the same person??????!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

Agggghhhhhh
(The real) Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:37 AM

Jim Carroll

I hung on to see if there were any answers to the questions I asked Bryan and Richard in my last few postings - there weren't of course, and I should have known better than to expect any.

And a while ago YOU accused ME of being snide.

I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening over to non-singers, after all isn't that "what it's all about".

I give about as much thought to this question as I do to how I will spend the money when I win the lottery. It is so unlikely that there is no point worrying about it.

But... just for the sake of argument, let's look at this scenario in detail. A group of people we have never seen before turn up one evening and express a desire to do a floor spot each. There are quite a few regular floor singers but we might manage to get everybody on for one each, especially if the residents hold back. What would you have me do? Demand references? Subtly question them to try and find out there background? Take them out to the loo for a quick audition? Refuse to put them on in case they weren't any good? Or say "Welcome. Glad to see you. (That'll be £3 each.)"?

I can't recall being involved with a club since the the late sixties which hasn't either organised a singers workshop or had one on hand if required.

Workshops

Ooops! That page needs updating.

I agree with Richard when he says "Sorry, Jim. I admire you and what you have done." but a lot of us have been answering you questions for a long time and are beginning to realise the complete futility of trying to persuade you of anything.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM

WMD
"We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round."
No - they/we (I was one of those soldiers) pissed off when we were offered a diet of badly performed material at 'folk clubs' which could range from The Beatles to Borodin - not because of the imposition of standards.
"the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it."
Must tell that to Tommy Peoples the next time he turns up at our local session.
Thanks for that; it sums up perfectly all I was trying to say about the contempt folk music is held in (even by some of its so-called advocates)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

Can I presume that the accusations of misrepresentation and sarcasm are over now? Thank you. No apology required.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

David el Gnomo

Can I presume that the accusations of misrepresentation and sarcasm are over now? Thank you. No apology required.

Whatever.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:07 AM

What does 'whatever' mean in this context? I am never sure. I have noticed that kids say it a lot but with me being an old fogie it seems to loose something in the translation:-( I suppose I am out of touch with teen culture. Maybe you can help me out, Bryan. Are you dismissing me? As in go and do whatever you want? Or are you agreeing with me? Whatever you say is correct for instance. It is important to me to ensure that I don't misrepresent you but if I don't understand what you mean it does make things rather difficult!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:05 PM

"the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it."

Wld, where on earth did that idea come from? Who are these 'people'?

Dave, I'm involved in running Shammick Acoustic in Combe Martin, N. Devon - you'd be welcome any time. Where are you? n (I'm sure you mentioned it somewhere in the last 450 postings, but life's too short... :-) )

Jim, I know you and The Snail rub each other up the wrong way, but I have to say that there are so many good singers at the Lewes club that The Snail is involved with that the odd poor singer would not destroy the night. In addition, the club puts on workshops on just about every subject within folk music that you can think of, and I'm sure that any not-so-good singers would be strongly encouraged to attend any suitable ones. And they are certainly not dependent on guest nights to keep people coming to the club!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:22 PM

I'm in Salford, Manchester, Barbara. I will keep details of your place for future reference and if you are ever up our neck of the woods be sure to visit Swinton Folk Club

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:27 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Barbara.

Barbara was too modest to say that she and Tom will be running a ballad forum for us in November next year.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

Phew is it getting warm in here?
My personal experience of "folk clubs" is limited.
I have been to about 40 music venues of the kind where loud PA is not used.
I have once been made to feel less than welcome when I overheard the organiser say,in what I thought might be a derogatory way" oh its not traditional then?"
But even there at the end of the evening a very elderly gent who told me he was a club member of long standing said he had enjoyed my songs and that his wife particularily liked one of them and thanked us for turning up,would we please come agin if we got the chance.
All the others are brilliant and welcoming and accomodating and supportive.
They vary a lot in the way they organise the time available.
And I am not one who would sulk a the chance of listening to music instead of playing.
Some are more based on traditional old songs and tunes,some have a more mixed set of regular performers.
I have even been allowed to play at the Villans excellent club Faldingworth live.
The point I have so long windedly been trying to put is that manners in a folk club should be the same as they are in the rest of life.
seeing each other as equaly important and treating your fellow music lover with the respect you would wish them to show to your mum ,wife,daughter or yourself.
Its a shame, but although you can make the club the bastion of the music you prefer,the manners are going to be largely the same as those outside.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Barbara
Sorry to have given the wrong impression.
I may not/don't agree with Bryan, but I certainly don't wish to offend him, or take our points of disagreement personally. I've always enjoyed our arguments and have come always away with knowing more that I knew when I started out.
Vigorous discussion is not animosity - not as far as I'm concerned anyway.
I know there are two clubs in Lewes; in my Singers Club days we always co-operated with the one Vic Smith was involved in, but based on what I've heard I have the greatest respect for both of them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:23 PM

Bryan,
Quickly - in middle of something.
"Take them out to the loo for a quick audition? Refuse to put them on in case they weren't any good? "
Sorry, crossed wires - the case I cited was of somebody who came back week-after-week for a year - I (mis?)understood that your policy was to allow people to sing whether they could hold a tune or not as a point of policy.
For me there has to be a point where you say - "go off and do some work".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

So, instead of a question left unanswered I now have two! Will someone let this poor little stupid gnome know whether I have mirepresented anyone and whether 'whatever' is a put down, an agreement or just a random phrase?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM

"the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it."

Wld, where on earth did that idea come from? Who are these 'people'?"

Martin Carthy and Robert Johnson are the first two that spring to mind.

its not four beats to a bar music. Its better than that. Take as many sodding beats as you need!

why hasn't the population of Ireland pissed off. perhaps they didn't know about the cheap Ryanair flights....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:33 PM

Funny, a post of mine has disappeared. Jim's name in my post was bad editing on my part. I needed to quote what he had said to respond sensibly to it, and I quoted a bit too much.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:38 PM

You are all going round in circles. Louis Armstrong said "All music is Folk Music. I ain't never heard a horse sing" I think the aim of this thread is just self perpetuation. Mr Bridge, do you agree? Tone Deaf Leopard were slammed for doing just that! I'm getting my coat, how about you?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

How wuld he know? He was not a folk musician.

I ahve been quite sparing in my comments - look at how few times I ahve posted.

But if you want to start on the horse definition I WILL TURN UP THE VOLUME and query your rationality.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM

Wld, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying, but there is a profound difference between not *choosing* to keep a strict beat, i.e. rhythm, and not being *able* to do so. I am quite certain that Messrs. Carthy and Johnson, along with many other able performers, *choose* not to do so.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:00 PM

Well, I did think I'd finished with this thread and yes- you were quite sparing - and I thought I was being THE voice of rationality here.
That's why I used that quote. Forgot that even that's contentious so, goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

I've seen seriously good artists rejected by audiences who simply couldn't understand where they were coming from.

I just think we need to be as accepting and appreciative as possible. What was it Oscar Wilde said, the truth is rarely pure and never simple - and I think that goes double with this music.

To be honest there is a lot of recorded folk, and I simply cannot understand wherein the greatness lies. Only this week I saw an artist I had been looking forward to seeing for months and hated what he did.

He wasn't bad at what he did, got a standing ovation - but I didn't get it, and I couldn't wait for him to shut up.

we can all be wrong.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:42 PM

But do we all have to be wrong together in the same time?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:11 AM

I think the thing is Tim, we're all wrong about a variety of different things.

Take BB's point about trad musicians not 'choosing' to play in strict rhythm.

if you want to see a man suffer, take a look at Alistair Russell's excellent dvd on how to play Celtic guitar. he plays all thse jigs and reels really slowly so beginners can see what he's doing - and you can just tell that every little muscle and ligament in his hands is straining to do 'do it properly'.

Of course, when he goes up to speed. the whole nature of the thing changes - there are all sorts of uneven sustains, and mutes, and sudden brilliant slashes with a plectrum. the guys brilliant.

is he choosing? I don't think so - the music is choosing. the melody drives it. He can do no other.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:34 AM

This point is so fundamental to what we/I do that I'm happy to pursue it until it rides off into the sunset.
I read through Bryan's posting of the Lewes programme of workshops with enormous admiration. Why the hell is he even suggesting giving floor space to non-singers when his club obviously has the wherewithal to make them in to good ones. It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me.
Some time ago on another thread somebody took this argument to its logical conclusion (I think I remember who it was and I'll look it up if necessary). They suggested that not only should bad singers be given a platform, but good singing was detrimental to folk song because it put off the not-so-good ones (where's me cyanide pill!).
Bryan
".....but a lot of us have been answering your questions for a long time and are beginning to realise the complete futility of trying to persuade you of anything."
Ten years or so ago I would not have dreamed of taking part in any of these arguments - I would have sat on my hands and said nothing. I walked away from the revival rather than staying and arguing for what I believed to be right.
Shortly after Pat and I started to collect we realised that we knew very little about our singing traditions (there is virtually no information available from the traditional singers point of view). So we switched our emphasis from head-hunting songs to gathering information which we believed was rapidly disappearing. Our recordings are as much a body of information as they a collection of songs.
As far as I am concerned arguments such as this one are part of my learning curve. I am certainly open to persuasion, but it has to fit in with what else I have learned elsewhere over the last (jeeze - has it really been 47 years). No - I'm not going to roll over on command and have my belly scratched (well - maybe if you ask me nicely!), but please don't suggest I'm not open to new ideas; I most certainly am if they are logical and well made.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:32 AM

Don't be sily Al - that's the way he hears it. It is his interpretation of the music that drives, not the music itself. If it was the music itself then everyone would hear it the same and the way we play or sing the songs would never alter, whereas we know that excellent musicians can interpret songs differently.

Take (not a folk song) the Freddie and the Dreamers interpretation of "If you gotta make a fool of somebody" with the wrenching Bonnie Raitt version

Or take the established practice of doing "Ride On" slower than a snail and compare it to John Barden's driving version.

Or in folk music, consider the previous versions of pretty well everything (folkish) that Fairport or Steeleye recorded with those later recorded versions.

It's the musician who chooses. Do you really think all those songs were in 5/4 before Martin Carthy decided he liked that time signature?

But to go back to manners - it is of course bad manners for someone to stand up and screw up. It is equally bad manners or worse to tell him/her so.

And so to standards. I screwed up "The Derby Ram" badly yesterday(in public). The guitar riff (yes, I mean riff) is not wholly easy, and just as I was having to divide my concentration between that and remembering the start of the next verse, I was tapped (with the best of intentions) on the shoulder to warn me that Ken's ferrets were about to fall onto the floor with their cage behind me (seriously). I lost it big style. I fell off the guitar riff in "Knight William" too (although I got that one back), but I still had non-folkies coming in from the bar next door to listen. I made NO mistakes with "Come Away Melinda" (see, I'm not completely anal about doing only "folk" songs) at the end of the afternoon, and I think it went down pretty well. But if you tell me that I'm going to have to audition, or to have others sit and tell me whether I am good enough or not - include me out of your place. You may think that a good thing, or a bad thing, but I am clear that it is a bad thing and that it inhibits the recollection, assimilation, and continuation of folk song in circles outside the hard core.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

Richard - please tell us who (apart from those of you championing crap standards) has mentioned 'audition'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Well Jim, I was about to pose just that question...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:02 AM

I believe that the the organisers of Westhoughton Fok Club did audition support spots - or at least ask for samples of their work. My apologies to them if that was not the case. Westhoughton was however a purely 'concert club'. All the top names were booked and they sold out of tickets (yes it was ticket only at times) for almost every night. They went on to win the Radio 2 Folk Club of the year award some time back but have now closed because the organisers could find no-one to take over from them:-(

Not sure what the point is but I am sure half the contributers here will interpret it one way and the other half chose the polar opposite:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:05 AM

Incidentaly - going back to folk club manners - Westhoughton had a 'season ticket' policy as well and a certain number of seats were reserved for season ticket holders - Just like at a football stadium. It was very frustrating when you could see empty seats and still not get in because they were 'sold out'. Wouldn't you think that the holders of season tickets would have the manners to show up or, at least, allow their season ticket to be used by someone else!

D.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:10 AM

Richard Bridge,you have imagined,that anyone here has talked about auditions,in the same way you imagined that I said I was good,you have accused me of being conceited, because I have a different opinion to you.
your problem is that you are interpreting other peoples posts,to mean something,that they dont mean.
I have said at least twice,that if I was guesting at a folk club,I wouldnt mention my opinions[on word sheets]unless someone specifically asked,I would then try to be diplomatic in my explanation.
   Isnt the most important thing ,that people [as well as/other than the perfomer] enjoy music that they pay to go and see.
the club organisers have to make some sort of decision ,about what music is provided[they dont need to audition people],if someone does a floor spot and is bad and shows no sign of improvement,the organiser hopefully can suggest ways of improving[hopefully in a tactful way]then in a couple of weeks give the performer another song,and sandwiching them between stronger performers.
to use the words of Mr Punch[thats the way to do it]

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM

After Barbara's calming intervention and Jim's assurance that he didn't wish to offend me, I spent some time this morning looking back through this thread and analysing what has been said so that I could prepare a reasoned presentation of our clubs policy, philosophy and motivation. It would have started with a description of the fantastic evening we had last night with the first booking of The Twagger Band.

Twenty people out of an audience of thirty performed (including fellow 'catter Will Fly) and not a dud amongst them.

Then I refreshed the thread to find -

Richard - please tell us who (apart from those of you championing crap standards) has mentioned 'audition'.
Jim Carroll

Do you mean me, Jim? If so, sorry, but I'm not prepared to engage with you on that level.

This thread is supposed to be about manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:52 AM

What was that about context?

Here is the quote

"audition, or to have others sit and tell me whether I am good enough or not"

That's exactly what you want to do - to tell other people whether they are good enough or not.

When I was in Chester in the 70s the "Mucky DUck" had all wannabe floorsingers come early to audition.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:07 AM

This is what amazes me, Bryan. 20 people performing. An average of 5 minutes each to do justice to a song and intro = 1 hour and 40 minutes just for the floor spots, assuming they did only one each. A break of about 15 minutes? Most clubs do the same, to sell raffle tickets, let people go to the bar, to the toilets etc. 10 minutes or so for doing the raffle, general introdcutions, parish notices etc. We are now up to 2 hours and five minutes in which the artists, who people have paid to see, have not had a sniff! If you start at 8:30pm and finish at 11:30pm that is hours, less the two hours and five minutes we have accounted for, give the artists 55 minutes in which to perform.

Don't get me wrong - I am not doubting you in the slightest. I just want to know how it can be done!

To counterpoint I will give you a (very rough) running order at Swinton. Firstly, we don't start until 9pm usualy - Our fault, we have pandered to the audience who don't seem to arrive till then! Hello and welcome from the MC, introductions, two floor spots - Say 15 mins in all. Artist is put on at 9:15 for, say, 45 mintes. It is now 10:00. 15 minute break (usualy extends to 20 minutes - again our fault) now at 10:20 Two support slots in the second half - 15 minutes again. Raffle and 'parish notices' - 5 minutes. It is now 10:40. Artist goes on for second half - 45 minutes takes us to 11:25. Goodnight, clear your glasses, encore - 5 minutes - 11:30 and the bar staff want to go home!

OK - we have had 90+ minutes of the artist but surely that is what people have paid their money for isn't it?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:09 AM

To be fair, I used the word audition in a somewhat rhetorical question when I was asking how I was supposed to know whether a floor singer was any good or not before I put them on.

That's why I assume that Jim's "those of you championing crap standards" was aimed at me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Tell people if they are good enough or not?

Well why not for gods sake, sometimes judgements have to be made.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:16 AM

Good point, Silas - Maybe it is good manners not to comment on a poor performance but is it good manners to subject people to poor performances on a regular bases by not advising the perpetrator what they are doing wrong? I don't know which is the greater evil but personaly I would tell them. In the nicest possible way of course:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

Richard ,but that is not what I am saying is it?
I am saying that club organisers,have a right to decide who sings in their club,they have an audience, they know their audience,they are the ones who have to pay the guest at the end of the evening,if they think a performer is going to have a negative effect over a period of time,thus making their club less successful,they have a right if they are financing the club themselves,to not let someone sing.
I have run folk clubs,in the past,and I can honestly say,I have never refused a singer a spot,but maybe I was lucky,or maybe in those days standards were higher.I can remember some very good floor singers who went on to higher things.,or who were established at that time but still did spots.
Pete Castle,Dave Walters,Julia Clifford,Steve Turner,DaveBryant spring to mind.
I do not wish to tell people whether they are good enough or not[which is why I dont run a club anymore]neither do I find it pleasant that other people have to do so.
but a club organiser has a right to decide who sings at his/ her club and that also includes their right to decide what guests they book,and other matters of club policy,including singing from scripts,that is up to club organisers not me,which is why I never say anything about songreaders when I am guesting at a club,it is not my business to comment on a club,providing they pay me at the end of the night.
my job as a guest is to provide a professional performance.
I am entitled to have an opinion here on Mudcat,without being called conceited etc.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:23 AM

Well, it really is the right thing to do, for their sakes as much as anything. Apart from the poor buggers who have to listen to the caterwauling, is it fair to allow them to carry on making arses of themselves week after week?

No, a polite but firm appraisal of their abilities is sometimes the only way to go.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

David el Gnomo

Don't get me wrong - I am not doubting you in the slightest. I just want to know how it can be done!

Well I wasn't the MC and I wasn't counting so I have to take Sandra's word for it but that's twenty performers not twenty spots. There were several duo's who, all except one, only got one song/tune. Although all the members of the band are very experienced, they haven't been working together long so they haven't built up their repertoire yet and only wanted two half hour slots. We offered them a booking after their first floor spot at the Royal Oak.

When I arrived only just before 8.00 the atmosphere was already buzzing. Sandra got things started promptly by starting to sing. Everybody sat down, shut up and listened. The interval was so short I almost blinked and missed it. Sandra is a very good MC and would never, in a million years, tell anybody they weren't good enough to sing.

We over ran 11.00 a bit but the pub doesn't close till midnight on a Saturday so that was OK.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM

Cool, that all makes sense - Thanks. We tend to give inividual artists one song and duo's two. Heaven help us if a seven piece band turn up on a guest night:-D I guess it goes a long way to explaining why your club can get more on than ours. I don't think that either way is perfect and no other will be all things to all people.

I don't think the comment about Sandra never telling anyone they are not good enough to sing is necessary - If you can get everyone on then do it! We have chosen a different way, no better or worse than yours, of running our club and yet we never tell anyone they are not good enough either. It may seem a little harsh to you that we do not get everyone on but I can assure you that the performers who do not get a spot on a guest night are well mannered enough to take it in good grace:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM

BTW - I have decided I know what to do when I visit Lewes. I just happen to have this Chinese song in 11:6 time, key of almost f, that runs for about 23 and a half minutes...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:15 AM

David el Gnomo

I just happen to have this Chinese song in 11:6 time, key of almost f, that runs for about 23 and a half minutes...

Looking forward to it as long as it fits the Sao Paolo 1954 definition of folk music although it would mean you were singing a song from outside your own tradition, you being a Spanish Gnome and all.

Last night was exceptional but it was a cracker.

I don't think the comment about Sandra never telling anyone they are not good enough to sing is necessary

It wasn't aimed at you.

Right! Session to go to. Trevor Arms, Glynde. 3.30 - 5.30 first Sunday of the month. Run by Valmai's husband Meic. "No bloody singing".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:42 AM

Jim Carroll said
I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening over to non-singers,
and elsewhere
on the Lewes, or any other Club.
and elsewhere
I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening

David El Gnomo said
She can also go to a host of other clubs, including Lewes

Dick Miles said
I notice Lewes Folk Club,are one of the few clubs that do this.

BB said
I have to say that there are so many good singers at the Lewes club

Please note that there are TWO folk clubs in Lewes that operate on a very friendly and mutually supportive basis. These are:-

1] THE LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB - Saturdays -
Website http://www.lewesarmsfolkclub.org/
Contact Valmai Goodyear at [e-mail]

2] FOLK AT THE ROYAL OAK - Thursdays -
Websites
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tinvic
and
http://www.myspace.com/royaloakfolklewes
Contact Vic Smith at [e-mail]

Otherwise, I have nothing to contribute to this turgid discussion.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

No, a polite but firm appraisal of their abilities is sometimes the only way to go
Would that more people were more forthright and less bloody happy-clappy and welcoming to the care-in-the-community brigade!
I'm with Silas - some people are utterly dire and need to be told that they're really not ready for public performing.
Sometimes, in very small doses, it provides a little light relief in a folk club, but it's rude to snigger too much, and it's probably not what the organiser actually had in mind. At other times I just feel a sense of frustration and emptiness - thinking to myself as the will to live ebbs away, "Why the f*ck did I waste one of my all-too-rare evenings out to listen to this drivel?"
If only every club was as perfect as the one in Lewes. Never been there myself, but we keep being told that it's a paragon, so I'll have to make the 300-mile trek one day to find out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Gervase said
the one in Lewes

AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:56 AM

Sorry, I meant the one in Lewes with a mollusc as ambassador. The other one doesn't seem to need so much hyperbole.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

I haven't much more to add to this discussion either - except to say that I was in the audience at last night's session at the Lewes Arms and it was an excellent evening. There was a guest band - "The Twagger Band" - and, if memory serves, 21 floor singers. With a couple of exceptions, every floor singer performed one song/tune and the standard of performance was extremely high. The club room was packed to the rafters and the whole atmosphere was great. I don't believe the club organisers would claim it as a "paragon", but it was certainly what I expected of a good, well-run, committed folk club. I can't speak for other areas of the country, but Sussex in general - and Lewes in particular - has a wide variety of clubs to go to. There's something for everyone, which is as it should be.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Enjoy the session, Bryan. Nowt on for me today (Apart from the new 'Sharpe' episode on the box which I am, (sad git that I am) realy looking forward to. Jon Harvison at Swinton tomorrow should be a cracker though:-)

My song fits in with no known definition of music whatsoever. I hope you are not going to tell me it is not good enough for your club just because of that are you:-P

Even if the remark was not aimed at me it was still redundant. Sandra managed to get everyone on, so there was no question of cutting anyone for any reason. Hence it was unnecessary to remark that she would not tell anyone etc. That's all I was saying.   

Sorry Vic - When I refer to the 'Lewes club' I think(!) I am refering to the Lewes Arms, I presume that is the one that Bryan refers to as well. Apologies for not making it clear.

Son #2 just rang - I have got an appointment tonight after all. Anyone fancy singing a lifting a 73kg cast iron stove out of a car and carry it to the house shanty? :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Bryan,
My 'crap standards ' comment was not aimed at you or anybody specifically (though it was prompted by a comment by Richard) - it was an opinion that if you don't apply standards you throw the floor open to singers who can't sing - that is my opinion based on my experience.
If you are allowed to use 'audition' rhetorically aren't the rest of us afforded the same privilege?
I have no doubt now that the Lewes club is a good one - how could I - but suggesting that this is the case throughout Britain flies in the face of the evidence to the contrary, again based on my own experience and, I suspect by the number of hits on this thread, by many others.
Saying that all's well as long as my club is ok is more than a little like - as we used to say in Liverpool - "Ding-ding; I'm on the bus".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:33 AM

'some people are utterly dire and need to be told'

tip 'em the black spot matey! Deposed! by the powers!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:40 AM

I have no doubt now that the Lewes club is a good one

Hello? Is anybody there?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:17 PM

yes Vic,there are two folk clubs in lewes,one partly organised by a belogerent Snail,and the other one organised by Vic and Christine Smith,my apologies.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

I was looking for a good example of the type of thing I was trying to explain. I think I have found it. Listen to this bloke. He can carry a tune if you can bear to listen carefuly but it is a prime example of someone who has not done his homework and falls short of the 'minimum standard'. Now, I am by no means saying that we have this bloke on at our folk club regularly but I have seen plenty of similar standard here and there. Unfortunately these people realy do think they are good and, unfortunately, at folk clubs we have no Simon Cowell to put them straight!

Those who have never come across them should count their blessings!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

Sorry Vic,
Didn't see your posting - this thread is becoming a little unnavigable.
I've already acknowledged that there are two clubs in Lewes and that when Pat was doing the Singers Club bookings it was yours she occasionally swapped guests with.
Have never been to either of them (think we only visited Lewes twice and both times came away with some wonderful books from your bookshops there (Songs of the Rump(Parliament not backside)).
Would be interested to know which of the clubs was 'visitated' by a gang of blokes (including collector extraordinaire the late Tom Munnelly) from our local here in Miltown Malbay just after the smoking ban was introduced in Ireland.
The story goes that one of our lads was found smoking outside the pub and was told "It's alright to smoke over here".
"Ah, doesn't seem right any more", was the reply.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:00 PM

"Sorry, I meant the one in Lewes with a mollusc as ambassador. The other one doesn't seem to need so much hyperbole."


I think it is a gastropod.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

PS to all,
Can I say what a pleasure it is to be on the same side as the Cap'n in an argument for a change - told you we should have gone ahead with the wedding Dick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

Well, I've never been called "belogerent" before. If I've achieved nothing else, at least I've brought The Captain and Jim together. (Let's see how long it lasts.)

There's obviously little point in continuing so I'll just post a couple of quotes from earlier in the thread that sum up our philosophy pretty well -

In forty plus years of involvement, at least twenty of those spent involved in singing workshops, I have never met anybody who is genuinely 'tone deaf'. True, some have to work harder than others, BUT ALMOST ANYBODY CAN SING if they work at it.

Why do people want to sing in a folk club? - because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are.

YES! That's why, if somebody says they want to sing we are quite happy to give them the opportunity (because they're worth it).

Both quotes are from Jim Carroll.

Bryan Creer (Lewes Arms Folk Club, Lewes, Sussex, UK)

(And, yes, we did get a floorspot at the Royal Oak, Lewes, Sussex, UK on Thursday. We were OK weren't we, Vic?)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM

Dave, you say you get a LOT of people like that! Wow!

I really can't imagine what you must be doing to attract them. That's astonishing. we only had one really bonkers type like that.

the audience communicated their feelings and we never saw her again. You do get some eccentric people - with strange ideas - but nothing as extreme as that. I think in a way - that makes it harder - if they are within screeching distance of normality.

However sooner or later something really cruel gets said, and lets face it - it must take a certain indifference to the generality of music making to get really weird - and as such they are vulnerable - because of their isolation. they take offence, and they're off! thankfully.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

A little hit-and-run Bryan.
Yes (almost) anybody can sing - if they work at it. If you have the facilities to help them why suggest putting them on before they've reached the stage when they can handle a tune and remember and make sense of the words? That, as far as I can see, is all that is being suggested here.
This is not about insisting on virtuosity, holding auditions, excluding people, prima donna(or don)ism, elitism, disliking humanity... or any of the other things suggested or implied on this thread; it is simply about trying to ensure that we all enjoy the singing and music presented at the clubs and about ensuring that we pass it on to the next generation in at least as good condition as we were lucky to have received it.
If we can't do that, perhaps it should stay on the shelf out of harms way.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:30 PM

Oh dear, it's hard to let go.

Jim Carroll

A little hit-and-run Bryan.

What? You said what you said and I agree. What's the problem?

But there is a point I have to settle before we can go any further. Do you believe that anybody is "championing crap standards"? If not me,then who?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM

Noooooo - WLD - We don't get a lot him but I have seen a few nearly as bonkers! Mind you, if we did get him I think it would work wonders. Imagine the publicity value of having a man that Simon Cowell hated:-D

I can easily attract nutters though. All I have to do is sit on bus minding my own business. And just look at the corespondants on this thread:-P

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:33 PM

David el Gnomo

I was looking for a good example of the type of thing I was trying to explain. I think I have found it. Listen to this bloke.

Absolutely brilliant. The bloke rips the guts out of the whole X-Factor concept.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

If you want to find teh word "audition" go to your google toolbar, hover or click on the down button to the right of the magnifying glass, opt for "find (on this page)" and insert "audition".

You'll find the first use is by one Jim Carroll, comparing some singers to one legged tarzans.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:51 AM

He did indeed, Bryan, and must be admired for that! The point is though that it is an extreme example of the type of thing we are on about under the 'bad manners for a performer'. I suspect that this guy either did prepare very carefuly to make the type of cock ups he did or, more likely, just thought he could go up there with no preparation at all and wow the judges.

If the latter is true it was very bad manners indeed and wasted a lot of peoples time. If you have never seen anyone start the wrong song, in the wrong key, then forget the words, then mumble some poor excuse, then start another song, in the wrong key, then you are lucky. If you have never seen anyone do the same month in and month out then you are very lucky indeed. This is what we are saying about some performers being bad and giving folk a bad name.

I hope no-one has ever given the impression that they feel the world of folk is all like that bloke. It is far from it and the vast majority of performers are excelent But remember all it takes is someone like that appearing to the general public (Ie non-folk club goers) and bang goes the reputation of folk. The media start to portray folk music a joke and a myth is perpetuated.

All I ask, can't speak for the others, is that there is an agreement that poor performers should not be representative of the music we all love so much. The general public will see one or two of them and tar us all with the same brush, so it is up to us to make sure the public do not see too much of it; whether by education or selection is another matter. Remember the old adage - If you like something you will tell one person; if you dislike it you will tell ten!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:53 AM

David el Gnomo

If you have never seen anyone start the wrong song, in the wrong key, then forget the words, then mumble some poor excuse, then start another song, in the wrong key, then you are lucky.

Of course, although not all of those at once as far as I recall. Even the best have the occasional false start.

If you have never seen anyone do the same month in and month out then you are very lucky indeed.

Sorry, but no. I don't know if it's luck or a consequence of our positive, supportive, "Yes you can." attitude that helps people gain confidence and improve.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

"You'll find the first use is by one Jim Carroll, comparing some singers to one legged tarzans"
More than a little disingenuous Richard - I used what I believed to be an amusing example to illustrate somebody aspiring to something they either were not yet ready for or (highly unlikely, in the case of singing) are incapable of.
I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED THAT ASPIRING FLOOR SINGERS SHOULD BE AUDITIONED, NOR HAS ANYBODY ELSE ON THIS THREAD, (not shouting - don't know how to underline) to suggest otherwise is misinterpreting what is being said, deliberately or mistakenly.
Bryan
"Do you believe that anybody is "championing crap standards""
Yes - of course I do - I've been listening to the 'near enough for folk-song' argument for forty-odd years; it still hasn't gone away and I believe there is much evidence of it on this thread.
Do I believe that you champion crap standards?
Quite honestly I find your own position utterly confusing. You obviously put in a great deal of hard work in making your club a success. You are obviously dedicated to the music. Yet you insist that the only criterion for giving singers floor-space is the desire to sing - that, for me is a guaranteed recipe for bad singing.
You haven't said (or maybe I've missed it) what you would do if faced with the situation we were faced with at The Singers Club. I don't know how many bad/non singers turn up at you club looking for a spot - if none, you are extremely lucky, but you are advocating something for the rest of us that is only an academic question for you.
If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.
The problem with bad singing is that they are like number 9 buses, if you miss one there's be another one along in a minute.
Much of Dave's above posting says exactly what I would like to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:18 AM

David el Gnomo,

I've been thinking about my postings on this thread and I apologize for making fun of your typo and also for the accusation of snobbishness, and anything else that may have given offense.

I try to be civil when discussing or arguing and I didn't live up to that toward you and on this thread.

I hope you will accept my apology.

Laurence Finston (my real name)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:34 AM

NOW THERE'S A POSTING WE CAN ALL LEARN FROM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:47 AM

But you do seek to insist, Jim, that people should not sing unless they are good enough.

I don't think that that's anybody's call but theirs, in general, although there will be times when any consumer can pick and choose.

We have enough masters, without adding more. Let the people sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM

I suggest (not my place to insist anything) that people be asked to reach a standard (tune/words/interpretation) before they sing publicly - for the sake of the audience, music, and for their own self-respect.
I believe that anybody can reach a basic standard with some work - surely it is not unreasonable to ask that that work is done before they become ambassadors for our music.
You're doing it again Richard - who mentioned 'masters' apart from yourself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:26 AM

Jim - If someone rang you up enquiring about your club and said something along the lines of "I've never sung in public before but I've got a couple of songs I'd like to do because my mate said I should get down to a folk club as that's the sort of place where people listen to this stuff..." what would your response be bearing in mind the comments you've been posting regarding standards?

If it were me I would certainly give him an idea of how the club runs ie singaround or get up to the front to do your bit or even sorry we have guests with invited floor spots every week but please try the xxxxxxxx folk club down the road which would be better suited to you - here's the organiser's number. If he did decide that my club was the place for him I'd be mindful of the fact that he might be nervous and make allowances for that but I wouldn't ask him if he thought he was up to a certain standard. After he'd (or she) performed I might have a quiet word with him later to either give him some encouragement or give him a few pointers to improve on what he'd done that night. Hopefully advice would be taken in the manner it was given and we'd see an improvement over the coming weeks once he'd got some confidence.

Your comments would be welcome Jim.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

Jim Carroll

If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

There is nothing that explicit, I think it is probably just taken as read. There is certainly nothing that says that floor singers must come up to some specified standard before being allowed to perform. The interpretation of this as championing or promoting bad singing is yours and yours alone based on a complete failure to understand how we operate. It is grossly offensive.

I could also do without lines like "It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me."

If you can demonstrate that you are capable of being civil and are prepared to make an effort to understand points of view that differ from your own, then I am prepared to engage in debate with you. If not,I have better things to do.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM

Laurence, your post and apology is a welcome ray of sunshine in this age of never admitting wrong but I can assure you it is absolutely unecessary. I already said I am thick skinned and did not take any offence. My chiding of you for 'mocking the afflicted' was as tongue in cheek as I am sure your comment was.

Thank you anyway and rest assured that if we ever meet the first round will be on me:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bru
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:54 AM

I'd be interested to hear the answer to that myself, Mark.

As a relative newcomer to folk clubs and singarounds, I don't consider myself a performer, and certainly not a good singer. I haven't read every single post, but the general feeling I get, is that newcomers with little or limited talent are not especially welcome at many of the clubs organised or run by several posters on the Mudcat forum.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

I am happy to say Bru that there are many where you wiil rightly be welcomed and encouraged

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM

Bru

I haven't read every single post, but the general feeling I get, is that newcomers with little or limited talent are not especially welcome at many of the clubs organised or run by several posters on the Mudcat forum.

That is very unfair and misleaing. If you have not read every post why say newcomers are not welcome at 'many of the clubs'. There has been one instance of someone saying that REPEATED bad performances would result in the offender not being invited back. As far as I can see even this club will give newcomers a chance and then, if required, offer help and support. All the other postings I believe are saying that there is room at their club for newcomers who wish to improve.

You would certainly be welcome at Swinton on any singers night or, providing you are there early, on a guest night. Hope that clears things up but if I am wrong with my analysis please feel free to correct me.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:49 AM

I have read pretty much all of the posts on this thread (not in one sitting I hasten to add!) and there is nothing here that changes my mind that context is all.

I go to a lot of clubs and they are all pretty different. The 2 I attend most often are Buneston Folk Club and Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club (which I run). These clubs are 5 miles apart and couldn't be more different.

Burneston is a weekly club completely about participation. Anyone can pretty much sing or play whatever they want as well or badly as they are capable of..... no guests are ever booked and no money ever changes hands and everyone gets a warm round of applause. Long may it continue, it is a great place to learn and to have some fun.

Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club is a monthly concert club (with 2 full weekend events each year). The club is aimed at providing entertainment to a largely passive audience (though we do have a singaround after the "gig"). Excellence is what is expected from the main (paid) guest and a high standard is expected from the 1 or 2 support acts each evening...... I have had complaints from the audience on the one occasion when a support act failed to meet this standard. I would be unlikely (though it does happen on occasion) to book anyone for either a main guest or support slot who I had not seen live. On the few occaisions where I have booked without having "auditioned" the acts I will insist on hearing good quality demos of the line-up that is actually playing..... I reject full production CDs with multiple backing musicians where I am being asked for a gig by a solo performer or duo. I think this approach is correct.... I am asking the audience to part with (usually) £5 of their hard earned cash..... I will try hard not to put anyone on who fails to meet a high standard. So though everyone else seems to be avoiding the "audition" word I think it is a good thing........in the context of a professionally presented evening of quality folky "entertainment".

I'll get me banjo.........

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM

" ... but the general feeling I get, is that newcomers with little or limited talent are not especially welcome at many of the clubs organised or run by several posters on the Mudcat forum."

I would like to express my outrage at this monstrous misrepresentation of what has been said on this thread so far!! Very few, if any posts, have advocated the discouragement of 'newcomers'!
I very much doubt if anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the majority of posts here could have come to that conclusion.

For the record here's what I wrote way back in the mists of time (29th October):

"Of course everyone has a 'right' to perform in public, if they are so moved, but with that right comes a RESPONSIBILITY not to alienate the audience. If a particular performer is a bit rough round the edges in the early days that's OK, and completely understandable, and even, more or less, acceptable. BUT if that performer is still ragged and unlistenable to a year (or two or three!) on, and it is obvious that he/she is not even attempting to develop his/her art then, I insist, that is NOT acceptable."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

Well it seems to me that there are "Concert" folk clubs, Singarounds and places that are perhaps a fusion of the two ideas.

I think that if everyone just remembered that certain behavior is impolite to say the least fewer of us would be upset.

Someone said "Manners maketh man" and my (Edwardian) grandfather was very strict to his children on such matters and in turn to his grandchildren,

That's as far as I wish to go with this except to say that The Lewes Arms is my club (like The Snail and some other Mudcat people) and what we get up to there on a Saturday night invariably results in a successful evening for everybody attending.

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

I am off to do some playing and singing and a bit of practising,have fun, everyone.
remember life is short,and old age is just round the corner,do what you can do while you can do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Without wishing to state the bleeding obvious - you are, I hope , charging for people to come in on a singers night - so that they are 'buying in' to the ethos - albeit a small token amount.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

Warwick Festival a couple of years ago held an open mike for which you had to send in a demo for a slot. It was held in a pub bar during peak booze time, so I suppose this made sense from the point of view of the survival factor.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:14 PM

If you're still there, Vic, my apologies for not stating *which* Lewes club I was referring to. I'm pretty sure that earlier in the thread, it had been made clear that The Snail (Bryan) was involved in the club at the Lewes Arms, and the conversation then continued with that assumption, but I may be wrong and I haven't time to look through the whole thread. Bryan is a frequent contributor to Mudcat, and I suppose it's becomes a bit like knowing people, and things are taken for granted.

Anyway, sorry if we've upset you.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Mark
"what would your response be bearing in mind the comments you've been posting regarding standards?"
I can't recall anyone ever ringing me up in advance requesting a singing spot - In the unlikely case of it happening I would invite them along to the club and they would be given a chance to sing, as they would if they just turned up - there's never been any question of that as far as I'm concerned.
If they could hold a tune and make sense of the song they would be included fully in the proceedings - if they couldn't, they weren't, simple as that.
If the latter was the case one of us would approach whoever it was, sound them out and, if they showed any interest, they would be offered assistance, either on an individual basis or through the numerous workshops I have been involved in.
If they turned down the offer of help and continued to turn up, my own inclination would be not to invite them to sing again right away, but wait a few weeks and let them try again (and so ad infinitum, until they either showed progress or stopped asking).
What would you do in the circumstances I outlined originally (which was not a hypothetical case but an actual occurrence) and which has been distorted beyond all recognition in the ensuing discussion? - so I'll repeat it:
"When I was involved with The Singers Club we were regularly visited by a young woman who was totally incapable of producing two notes which related to each other. She invariably asked to sing and was allocated one song (not by me).
Over the year she attended she never improved; she was invited to attend our singing workshop but felt she didn't need it.
After a year the audience committee received a letter of protest from her and her friend complaining that she was only allowed one song."
Bryan
"If you can demonstrate that you are capable of being civil........"
It was never my intention to deliberately insult you or anybody on this thread, any more than I am sure it was never your intention to deliberately distort my argument by suggesting that I was proposing 'auditions' at clubs.
These subjects tend to become rather heated (on all sides) and, while I am not happy with some of the slagging-off that takes place, I take heart from the fact that people feel strongly enough about the music to be passionate about it.
"and are prepared to make an effort to understand points of view that differ from your own,"
Isn't it a little presumptuous to assume that, because I have not come around to your point of view, I don't understand it - I assure you, I do - I just don't accept it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:35 PM

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Without wishing to state the bleeding obvious - you are, I hope , charging for people to come in on a singers night - so that they are 'buying in' to the ethos - albeit a small token amount.
exactly WLD,once people pay,there must be a minimium standard,if you[the club] are in a public house,bums on seats,and liquor consumed comes into the equation,the publican has to make a living,if only six people turn up instead of 25[unless the six are heavy drinkers]because the standard is low,the publican will find something else and show the folk club the door.
people will go where the music is good,no problem if the organiser wants to hold the club in a private house,an audience of three men and a dog,no longer matters.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM

Goose, gander.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM

Jim Carroll

,It was never my intention to deliberately insult you or anybody on this thread,

Really? Telling me that I am "championing or promoting bad singing" is offensive.

"It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me." is offensive.

Implying that The Lewes Arm Folk Club is overwhelmed by non-singers is smearing the reputation of a well respected folk club. That is offensive.

I am sure it was never your intention to deliberately distort my argument by suggesting that I was proposing 'auditions' at clubs.

I did not do so. As I understood it, you were saying that merely expressing the desire to sing was insufficient reason to give someone a floorspot before they had achieved the required standard. I was demonstrating the impossibility of finding that out by offering a list of patently impractical ways of doing it. Apparently I was mistaken and you actually believe that floor singers should be allowed to perform and only told afterwards that they aren't good enough and not to come back until they've improved. I think all of our residents would baulk at such ill-mannered behaviour.

You may believe that you understand my point of view, Jim, but you do not. All your responses are incompatible with any level of understanding.

As for your strange lady of forty years ago, it seems The Singers Club were following the same policy that you describe as crass and letting here sing just because she wanted to regardless of her abilities.

Goodbye Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:41 AM

Bryan
Bye!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:47 AM

Bryan,
Sorry - I wrote that last posting in a moment of disappointment - I was enjoying our discussion.
None of your points accurately represent my position and are all debatable - but as you've decided to take your ball home there is little point in continuing.
If not being persuaded by the other person's argument is a crime, it is one that we are both guilty of; neither of us have shifted from our original positions.
Insults come in all forms - misrepresentation is just as insulting as harsh words - and far more dishonest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:18 AM

One thing that seems to be overlooked in this thread (although I'll admit that I've not read every post) is that most clubs are run by individuals or small committees who are investing their own money in hiring a room, booking guests, advertising etc. It seems to me that this entitles them to decide on the ethos of that club and to make the decision whether certain singers reach a good enough standard to be allowed to perform.

Whilst the number of clubs has sadly declined in recent years, there are surely enough of all types, ranging from the anything-goes singaround to full concert performance, to satisfy everyone.

There are plenty of opportunities for the novice to learn how to sing and perform, and I value that the folk world is more than willing to allow them this opportunity. I am less convinced by the argument that anyone, no matter how incompetent, has a "right" to sing. If some venues are willing to accommodate them, that is of course up to them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:44 AM

Another question is: What does a would-be performer sensibly do before going to a club and asking to perform? A simple guide might be:

(a) visit the club first to gauge the style and standard of the floor singers

(b) have a word with the organiser(s) to see if a floor spot on a future date is OK - and check whether that might entail learning 1, 2, 3 songs, etc.

(c) go away and practice the material they intend to perform at their 'debut' and make sure they have it ready to the best of their ability

(d) go and do the spot - and learn from any reaction, comment, advice, etc. that follows it

Sounds obvious, doesn't it? I've been playing for a long time but I would still visit, do an email or make a phone call, if possible, to a club before performing there for the first time - just to check on the protocol.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:54 AM

I think you are being very unfair, Brtan. Let's take one of Jim's comments that you find offensive -

It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me.

Then let us look at the comment in it's full context -

I read through Bryan's posting of the Lewes programme of workshops with enormous admiration. Why the hell is he even suggesting giving floor space to non-singers when his club obviously has the wherewithal to make them in to good ones. It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me.

What it looks like to me, and what I belive Jim means, is that he has enourmous admiration for the work being done by the workshops being run. The 'lemming like bloody minedness' may be a more colourful way of putting it that I would have used but I do not see any offence there. Just another way of saying 'Seeing as you have such excelent workshops, why would you want to put on poor performers?' Far from being an insult I find it quite complimentary and a very intelligent question.

I am sure Jim does understand your point of view, just as I do, and I am not sure who is misrepresentaing who here. A question I have not yet had cleared up btw:-) I think you will find that we all want the best for folk music. I also feel that, even though we all have different approaches, we all believe there is a standard that performers should be able to achieve. If not, why run the workshops?

I think you are taking offence where none is intended and continuing the argument unnecessarily.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:00 AM

Well, maybe Dave. What do you reckon to "championing crap standards"?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

Thank you Dave - put far more concisely (and certainly far more diplomatically) than I could.
Because I disagree with one aspect of a club's policy certainly does not mean I was 'smearing the reputation of a well-respected folk club'.
I have consistently asked of people on this thread what they would do about persistently bad singers - to date I have had no satisfactory reply, from Lewes nor from anywhere else.
Regarding our 'strange' (was she so strange?) lady of forty years ago (thirty actually), it is true that other residents took a different attitude to her than I did - that's why I distanced myself from the decision to continue putting her on in my first post "She invariably asked to sing and was allocated one song (not by me)."
It is quite possible - even usual - to be part of something you don't 100% agree with.
Suggesting that I have implied that "The Lewes Arms Folk Club is overwhelmed by non-singers" is as much of a distortion as was suggesting, as Bryan did once (Nov 8th, 8-35) (though he later excused himself by describing it as rhetoric - something he is not prepared to extend to the rest of us), and several others have done persistently, on this thread.
As far as I am concerned, in spite of our often conflicting opinions and the heated way in which we ALL occasionally deliver, them we all have something to say to and learn from each other - and long may that continue to be that case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:45 AM

Context again, Bryan.

Richard - please tell us who (apart from those of you championing crap standards) has mentioned 'audition'.

Is the first time the phrase was used (2nd Nov. 5:42AM) In my opinion it was a poor choice of words but definitely vague enough to be not directed at anyone in particular. I took 'those championing etc.' to be the any clubs who consitantly put out poor shows. I guess you took it to mean you, but we know that you are not 'championing crap standards'. Just the opposite in fact, by promoting the workshops you are working to improve standards.

I know that Jim can speak for himself so it is probably redundant of me to say that this whole argument seems based firmly upon wrong assumptions about what is and is not inteded! And I think you have achieved another first btw - I find myself in agreement with both You and Jim:-) We are all working towards improved standards!

Anyroads - took the car to the club last night and left it there so going to pick it up now. Out of interest we had only two support acts last night - Me and Dereck! Dereck did 4 excelent unaccompanied songs. I managed to cock up a simple waltz in the first half but redeemed myself in the second:-) Jon Harvison was brilliant as ever and we got well over 90 minutes of him. Even though the audience was small, it was a high quality one:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:17 AM

Hasn't this thread strayed somewhat off topic?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:43 AM

Actually Jim I thought that I had submitted an answer to dealing with persistently bad performers. At every club with which I have been connected (4 in 42 years)the MC has always had licence to put on who he/she deems suitable and in which order and if it goes tits up then they have some explaining to do; believe me I have been on the wrong end a time or two! However if a persistently bad performer finds themselves not being asked to participate on a regular basis then their own sensitivity should tell them that something is amiss. Unfortunatley as I said earlier the lesser the talent the greater the ego and if the club organiser/mc is approached by the wounded would be performer then it is their duty to inform them as gently and diplomatically as possible that they are not of the standard that the club aims to present. More than often this will result in a torrent of abuse aimed at both the club and it's residents but at least the would be performer has got the message.
The above action was applied to my mate and I many years ago at Birtley club (read Pete Wood's just published"The Elliotts of Birtley" for a full description) and it worked for both of us.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,KevBoyd
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

Suegorgeous wrote:
"Hasn't this thread strayed somewhat off topic?"

Err, no I don't think it has. But if the question had been "Has it strayed into tedium and monotony", then the answer would have to be yes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:10 AM

Maybe the situation is slightly affected by the number of alternatives on offer. We're a bit spoiled in the East Midlands by the fact that there is usually a large choice of folk/acoustic venues within quite a close range and singers can pick and choose a bit to find one suited to their focus/ level of ability.

I used to live in the south-east (in Crowborough, not far from Lewes) and no for a fact that the situation is a bit different in that clubs ar a bit thinner on the ground -we've sometimes struggled to find anywhere on a partivular night when we visit that part of the world.

It's hard for singers to go somewhere else when there is only a limited range, so perhaps you need a bit of an all-encompassing philosophy.

We've never actually been around there at the right time to go to the Lewes club, but I've met people from there at festivals and all the reports I've heard seem to be very favourable.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:14 AM

David el Gnomo

Dave, I'm sure your intervention is well meant but please read the posts.

Context again, Bryan

Correct. From Jim Carroll's post of 03 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM -

If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

Pretty straight and to the point. Nothing rhetorical there as far as I can see.

If we can get past that, I might find the time to address the other points although it would be nice to know that I wasn't going to attract further abuse from Jim.

Just for the record, I have never said, rhetorically or otherwise, that Jim was proposing auditions.

Read the thread.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:23 AM

Richard Bridge.
Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM

Goose, gander,what do you mean?are you trying to bring this to a personal level.
I have explained that while I ran clubs I never had to refuse a floor singer,but an organiser has that right.
if it happened to me I would accept it.,then stay the night if it was someone I wanted to see,or leave quietly if it wasnt.
however I dont need to do floor spots,and with respect,it is a little far to come from Ireland on the off chance.
I am next in England in april 2009 for a week,and am working every night.
if I had anight free I would probably pop in to a local club and do a floor spot,I did this at Stockton last year when Debra Cowan was the guest.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM

Acorn4

clubs ar a bit thinner on the ground -we've sometimes struggled to find anywhere on a partivular night when we visit that part of the world.

Really? Where are you comparing with? There are two here in Lewes alone about 200yds apart. Have a look at the
Folk Diary.

Lewes club

Tut,tut. Do you mean the Lewes Arms Folk Club in Lewes on a Saturday or the Royal Oak Folk Club in Lewes on a Thursday?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

Oh dear, the struggle to get the point across without being unnecessarily insulting.

If one has generically the right to object to an inferior performer then those who wish to object to one have a similar right.

If one believes that one will never be subject to such an objection then one has a view about one's own standard, and that it is not inferior.

When I was at university I played a bit of squash. I was chatting to another student in the coffee queue one day and it turned out he played. He said "I'm not bad actually" to decline the game. I thought what a conceited fellow he must be (since I was in fact playing number 3 or 4 most weeks on the university team that year). It turned out he was rated number 2 or 3 in the country UAU rankings. So in fact he was being properly self-effacing by saying that he was not bad.

Does that put it in context without being short?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:43 AM

Thanks, Bryan. At least you now realise my posts are well intentioned. Far better than misrepresentative and sarcastic:-) I am still of the opinion that both you and Jim want the same thing, as indeed do I, but who am I to interfere if either of you choose to argue about the wording of how you put it. I'll leave you to it.

Richard. Accepted. If I choose to not put on a particular floor singer on a guest night then I accept that other club organisers have the right to do the same with me. It is not a question of being superior or inferior it is just a question of who can I get on and who will provide the best entertainmnet under a very specific and ever changing set of circumstances.

If, on a guest night at a 'foreign' club, I was not asked to do a floor spot I would not even think twice about it. If however on a singers or open night I was not invited I would probably ask the organiser why.

Why does everone seem to argue in extemes? Clubs are neither full of bad peformers nor poor performers. There is good and bad in every club I have ever visited. The very bad, who fall below 'the standard' are a tiny minority, just as are the exceptionaly good acts. The vast majority are somewhere in between.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

I was aware of the two clubs in Lewes, and also know the organisers of the Seaford club well. We have been down to the "Folk and Ale" at Upper Dicker for the last three years, and have also visited the Maidstone club.

I wouldn't want to disparage the south-east at all being born and brought up there, and first sang in public at a club called "The Compasses" in Tunbridge Wells; I helped to organise a short lived effort in Crowborough about 30 years ago, and have particularly fond memories of one run at the Junction in Groombridge.

It's just that, within a 30 mile radius of Leicester, I worked out that there are 64 venues running folk/acoustic sessions, so in a sense, we are a bit spoilt.

The comment was supposed to be by way of possible explanation for one or two other comments made.

It would also be interesting to know if anyone else remembers the compasses!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:46 AM

Whoops - should read "Clubs are neither full of bad peformers nor perfect performers."

Sorry.

BTW - The car was still there and in one piece. Things must be looking up in Salford...:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

Acorn4

I was aware of the two clubs in Lewes

Ah, put perhaps you missed Vic's post earlier. Hence the "tut, tut." This does sometimes give us problems, especially if booked guests just put "Lewes Folk Club" on their gig lists.

From here amongst the Downs, Crowborough is a bit outlandish and Tunbridge Wells nought but a travellers tale. Someone I met at Tenterden did say that Kent was a bit thin for folk clubs and all that miles-and-miles of Weald between here and there is "Here be Dragons" country. I don't think we are doing that bad in Sussex but nice to hear things are so good around Leicester.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

Acorn4 - as I recall, there was a pretty vibrant music scene in Leicester over 40 years ago! I worked for a short spell as a barman (which is what we were called in those days) in the upstairs "music" bar of a pub at the end of London Road (next door to the YMCA) called The Victoria. As I recall, there was blues/R&B on Thursdays, folk on Fridays and jazz on Saturdays and sometimes Sundays. And that was just one pub! Good to hear it's still all happening there.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM

I have yet to see a club with a sign up outside, or a note on its website, that states "Only decent singers who know all the words and can play their instrument well, without a mistake, need enter". I suspect if one did then, whilst their elitism may stand tall, their number would drop exponentially. Can you imagine this thread if only all the good player/singers were allowed? For even among them there would be better and worse. I certainly prefer a rich and varied club attendence where all are given and equal chance and an equal applause.

Attending such clubs I have seen so many improve weekly - as I would like to think I have done some weeks - and I have had chance to hear new songs, new stories, learn much history and find great companionships as the time passes.

It seems 'weak' singers/musicians would not/should not be allowed through the musical glass ceiling being erected by some in their ivory towers and I think Folk will be the poorer for it.

Having watched this thread for a couple of weeks I have taken a great deal on board tried to 'clean up my act' and be more well mannered in those areas I was slipping (my phone is always on silent now and I tend to sort music before the night). I'm afraid my singing/playing will never be on the level of so many of those around me. I have even considered stopping playing publically. What keeps me at it is the level of support I get from those around me in the clubs I go to. I am so lucky to be attending the clubs that do not appear to have this invisible, but very obvious, musical glass ceiling that exists in those attended by others.

It saddens me that, had this been my first experience of the Folk scene (reading this thread) I would never have dared venture out to a club at all. We really ought to all be singing off the same crib sheet ;-)

Best wishes

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:42 AM

Well it seems to me mauvepink that you have read the thread but learned nothing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Who shall guard the guards


It seems I may have learned something I do not myself like Silas. I was just surprised to find so many judges when I was naïve to think all Folk people stood for the same thing but had diverse tastes within the subject.

I may have learned nothing other than to be surprised because what I have seen here I have thankfully not experienced on the local folk scene. I have seen enough of the tread to know my own mind though and I am sincere in saying I may well have stayed away for fear of all the judges had I know so many existed.

We all judge. We all have our likes and dislikes. But what happened to warm welcomes and live and let live? My comments are not meant as a personal attack on anyone. I have just found myself very surprised is all

Best wishes

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

Acorn4,
       Whoever suggested Kent was thin on the ground for music and dance venues missed the quite a bit.


Chatham Theatre
Orpington (Friday)
Orpington (Thursday)
Walmer
Ashford Theatre
Tun. Wells
Rainham
Otford
Gillingham
Tenterden
Stone Street
Dartford
Whitstable
Isle of Sheppey
Stansted
Broadstairs
Cowden Pound
The above are just the ones advertised. There are other sessions, events and dance nights to be found.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

It seems 'weak' singers/musicians would not/should not be allowed through the musical glass ceiling being erected by some in their ivory towers

How on earth did you draw that conclusion from reading this thread, mp? Nowhere does it say that anyone should be stopped from performing. Far from it. We go out of our way to encourage everyone to get involved and many clubs offer the opportunity for people to improve themselves as well.

If by 'the glass ceiling erected by those in ivory towers' you are objecting to my reluctance to let some people loose on the paying public then, yes, guilty as charged. Maybe you should ask why you have not been invited to perform at the next Bellowhead concert? After all wanting to put on a professional show for the paying public is such an elitist thing to do.

I have said it until I am blue in the face. We have 28 singers nights a year at which ANYONE can do ANYTHING (public decency permitting:-) ) On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music. Is that so wrong?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:15 AM

I obviously must have misread a great deal then and, if so, I apologise. But I am not on about elitism at the paying public end. There has to be some sort of standard (though I guess the paying public themselves set it at some point by who they are willing to watch). If I pay good money for a ticket I want the singer(s)/performer)s) to be of a standard. Of course. It is not always guaranteed though obviously.

I also do not seek bookings. I am no-where near good enough to be paid for singing. It could be argued if I was good enough at all to sing at a club.

What I refer to is what seems to be looking down noses at people of a lesser ability or experience. Calling people with little ability names. I am sure I have seen it in this thread but if I imagined it then again I am sorry.

Let us forget the payed for tickets angle. In essence I am saying we all need each other. We should all support each other if we can. Many do (I know because I have had much help and much of it from pro-singers) but name calling does not seem fair, especially on beginners and people learning an instrument. This, of course is only my opinion and belief. I have merely stated it as others have theirs.

Maybe that is wrong too?

I just wish we could all be pulling together morw and I got the impression in this thread we are not as kind as forgiving as maybe some of us could be. If I am wrong to say so then I am indeed sorry. I'll stay off the thread, but keep attending the clubs ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:19 AM

hi Dave,and have to say how much I enjoyed guesting at your club.
Swinton folk club,is a friendly club,with a good core of singers,and could not by any stroke of the imagination be descibed elitist,or exclusive .
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:30 AM

OK, mauvepink. I think you are right when you say 'I got the impression in this thread we are not as kind as forgiving as maybe some of us could be'. That is a far cry from suggesting that this thread would put people off folk music. Remember saying It saddens me that, had this been my first experience of the Folk scene (reading this thread) I would never have dared venture out to a club at all. Only a few posts ago?

Sorry if some of us are not as diplomatic as others. If I see someone struggling with words or a tune or whatever I tend to say 'I think it may work better if...' or some such. Some people may ignore it completely. Some people, whom I have a certain amount of admiration for, will call a spade a spade and just say 'Sorry, but that is crap. You need to improve.' That is just a fact of life. It happens everywhere. Why should folk clubs be different?

If we were to expect only kind words and praise for what we did none of us would ever improve because we would believe there is nothing wrong with what we are doing!

Hope this explains my attitude at least and goes a long way to explaining why your synopsis of the thread may be flawed. Maybe it would be better if you just didn't read the posts that offend your sensibilities;-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:42 AM

mp - the only way that a club organiser can discover that a performer does not meet their club's standards is by giving them a chance in the first place!I have defended the position of the floor singer/performer all the years that I have been on the folk scene and at our club we are proud of the number of floor performers that we can attract and present on a given night (even when a guest is booked, which is most months)
Unfortunately I do not have the powers posessed by a fellow committee member some years ago who, after I had put on a performer who was totally unaware of his own shortcomings, informed me "he even looked like a crap singer!!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:54 AM

Once again people have retreated behind straw man of their own construction - ie glass ceilings, elitism, etc.
The question from the point this thread veered from club manners to club standards was this;

SHOULD PEOPLE WHO ARE UNABLE TO HOLD A TUNE, MEMORISE A TEXT WITHOUT THE AID OF A CRIB SHEET OR INTERPRET A SONG TO THE EXTENT OF COMMUNICATING IT TO THE LISTENER BE ENCOURAGED TO SING IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE?

Simple as that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:06 PM

Oh dear, I hope I haven't lit the blue touch paper in that old rivalry between Sussex and Kent. I know how fierce that one can get.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

Ahhhh - Were that it was that simple, Jim! I think your key phrase there is 'should they be encouraged to'. To which the answer should be a resounding maybe:-) If you mean should they be encouraged to continue as they are - absolutley not. If they are that bad and incapable of improving then I see no reason why they should be denied the joy of singing altogether. But it should be on the very strict understanding that they limit their performances to where they can do no harm to the reputation of either the club they attend or folk music in general. If you mean should they be encouraged to get better, then yes, of course they should.

There is of course an alternative readily available for the naturaly untalented. Karaoke:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM

I'm not sure whether my informant that things were a bit thin in Kent was a Kentish Man or a Man of Kent. I can't tell them apart, meself.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:50 PM

No, I fear that mauvepink reads it aright. There seem to be those on this thread who will set barriers for others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Sigh...

There are barriers and barriers, Richard. Would you put the winner of the worst singer in worseville during the year of the worse on with your prestigious showcase celebration of Lucianno Pavarotti sings Mrs Mills greatest hits?

Yes??!?! Damn. I need to think of a different barrier then...

Seriously though. Do you believe there should be NO barriers at all? Would you, as a club organiser (are you btw?) risk putting on a completely unprofessional act during a concert for which you have just charrged 50 people £5 each? I wouldn't. And if that is a barrier then include me as the one of the people who sets barriers.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM

GUEST,Spleen Cringe

In support of the esteemed Senor El Gnomo, can I add my tuppence in that when Pip Radish and I visited his folk club on the night that Captain Birdseye was strutting his enjoyable stuff, both Pip and I (at least one of whom was sporting a most unseemly tank top), despite being untried, untested outsiders on a guest night, were offered the opportunity to cough our way through a tune.

David el Gnomo

Would you, as a club organiser (are you btw?) risk putting on a completely unprofessional act during a concert for which you have just charrged 50 people £5 each?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM

Well
So far Dave e G has given an answer - any more takers?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:29 PM

I wouldn't.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:33 PM

As a matter of interest, how many times over what period have the folk club organisers here present actually found it necessary to tell anybody they were not good enough to have a floor spot?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

Imagine the scenario:

A high profile guest has been booked who is expected to draw in a capacity audience.

A five piece folk band, who you know to be very proficient but who you haven't seen at the club since at least a year ago, turn up wanting one of the three or four floor slots you have available. You know that they have probably come because they know there will be a large audience courtesy of the main guest's reputation, and they might sell a few CDs, get bookings, but you also know you probably won't see them again until you get another popular guest night.

One of the regulars who comes to the singaround every week also asks about a slot. They probably come into the "took years of practice to get this crap" bracket, but they are a loyal follower of the club, who perhaps helps with raffle, organisation ,etc.

I know guests often appreciate good warm up acts, but it's not easy, is it?

Sounds a bit like one of those scenarios they give you on training days doesn't it?

One of our local festivals has a final singaround when the preference for slots is given to the Stewards who have worked at the festival. I can't really see any problem in this.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

I don't understand the point of your last two quotes, Bryan. I didn't risk putting on a completely unprofessional act - I did take a chance that Phil and Nigel would be good and the chance paid off. I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt hence my earlier comments about always asking newcomers if they want a support slot. To try and suggest that I am contradicting myself is rather disingenuous and completely off the mark. Is that what you were trying to achieve? If so it didn't work!

The big difference between risking putting on a known bad act and a trying out a completely unknown act should be pretty obvious. I don't think even you could misinterpret that one. Although I could be wrong:-) Besides, the tank top was worn with such style and panache that I knew I was onto a winner.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

Oh, and sorry, to the other question. I have never had to tell anyone in 30 years of running the Swinton club. I just don't put them on as often as good performers. Seems a good compromise between letting the minority do their own thing and keeping the majority happy. We did recently, as I said earlier, tell one of our performers his electric guitar was too loud. He has not brought it since.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

The club I'm a resident singer at on a Sunday have a policy on guest nights where only one of the four residents (ranging from me as a solo singer, two duos - one male/female and the other male/male, and a four pice harmony quartet) do the support. Four songs in the first half and either three or four in the second half depending on time left. The guest then gets at least 40 minutes per half. The resident for each night is chosen to contrast the guest where possible so I wouldn't do the support for Harvey Andrews say. It doesn't matter who comes through the door asking for a spot they won't get one. On the other three/four nights of the month which are run as a singaround anybody can have their turn if they want to do something. It's worked for as long as the club's been running and only once have I seen someone come in expecting to sing and left because it was a guest. Maybe he didn't have enough cash to get in but I wasn't running after him to find out.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM

My memory's not what it was, but I'm pretty sure Nigel was wearing the tank top. You're right about the style and panache, though.

To be fair to Bryan, I misread that line similarly. It's the difference between "putting on someone you haven't heard and taking the risk that they'll turn out to be below-par" and "putting on someone who was below-par the last time you heard them, and taking the risk that they'll do it again". The latter, when there are paying customers, would be daft. The former - well, I couldn't possibly comment, but thanks!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:23 PM

David el Gnomo

The big difference between risking putting on a known bad act and a trying out a completely unknown act should be pretty obvious.

Yes, with the known act you know how bad they are going to be; with the unknown act, they could be absolutely horrendous.

What if Mr Cringe had said yes?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

They could indeed, Bryan, they could indeed. But they were not. And he didn't. So the point is what exactly?

I think we exhausted the issue of pointless rhetoric earlier.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:41 PM

I just find it a little curious that you insist that "There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club." but you are prepared to put on total unknowns on the dubious grounds that they want to sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:02 PM

Thankfully Snail only three times in forty two years that I can remember. Some of the others who turned in wretched performances either learned from the less than enthusiastic response from the audience or gathered from the fact that they were not asked to perform again that they might not be as good as they thought they were.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

Bryan, of course I am prepared try something I do not know. How else do we get more experience? I am a natural optimist and, as yet, not been proved wrong. I have never once suggested I would not try someone new. Are you suggesting I should? Or maybe you are suggesting that my trust is misplaced because I am more likely to get someone bad than someone good? Surely not? You have argued all along that the quality of performers at folk clubs is generaly high. I have always agreed. Therefore the laws of probablility are in my favour. Where are you getting with this arguement?

All I have said all along is that I would restrict KNOWN poor performers who do not make any effort to improve. You seem to be trying to find faults with the points we agree on!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

Oh - and to set the record straight. Even though I had not heard Phil personaly he is not a 'total unknown' as you put it. I know him by reputation around local clubs as a good singer and from the Mudcat as an excellent source of knowledge and witty raconteur.

You can send me the cheque later, Pip. :-D

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM

I just wish Swinton wasn't the best part of 15 miles away with no direct bus route home...

Bryan, my earlier comments were a plea for singers like me to do everyone the favour of knowing their own limitations. Surely it was clear I wasn't having a pop at Dave de Dverg or inviting others to do so on the basis of my comments? Surely as a club organiser you can appreciate the wisdom of my stance, even if you may privately suspect I'm being a bit of a wuss? When I'm next in your neck of the woods I'm going to try to get to the Lewes wossername and I'm going to extent you the same courtesy - my silence (except on the odd chorus). You'll thank me, I swear! Pip, who sings rather nicely, as I'm sure Dave de Kabouter was aware, needs no such straitjacket.

Or tank top. Ok, it was mine...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

Before I go out may I try to summarise what the argument is about?

It appears that we agree on all points bar one. What to do about performers who CONSISTANTLY put in a poor show. There are many areas in between but it seems to me that there are three major contenders -

1. They are stopped from performing regularly at the club until they improve. (Jim Carroll)

2. They are allowed to perform but only in restricted circimstances (el Gnomo) and

3. They can continue performing as long as they want. (Snail)

If this is the case, and I accept I may have summarised incorrectly, then surely all three methodologies work in different circusmstances as we can all prove with our own evidence.

Does anyone here believe that their way is the best? I think not. Does anyone think it is the only way? Nope.

What on earth are we arguing about then?

I would like answers to both Jims and Bryans questions though - It is important as club organisers that we use each others experiences and knowledge to help run our own clubs better!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

David el Gnomo

Where are you getting with this arguement?

Dunno Dave. Maybe I'm just a bit bored.

But actually -

You seem to be trying to find faults with the points we agree on!

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that we DO agree on much more than you have been prepared to admit and that what you do in practice is inconsistent with some of the things you have said.

Quoting you again -

There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club.

and you said to mauvepink -

Maybe you should ask why you have not been invited to perform at the next Bellowhead concert?

You go on to say -

We have 28 singers nights a year at which ANYONE can do ANYTHING (public decency permitting:-) ) On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music.

How can someone you've never heard who just turns up on the night be "in our opinion, [the] best in folk music"? What is the basis of your opinion?

I actually think you are (with some reservations) doing the right thing. I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing.

I don't think I've said "that the quality of performers at folk clubs is generaly high.". I just think that it is very rarely bad and, so far, my mini survey seems to bear that out. Generally the standard is OKish up to brilliant. How does that compare with your core singers night crowd? Why is a total stranger more likely to be the "best in folk music"?

Alternatively, I could just be marking time while I wait for Jim Carroll to admit that I did not misrepresent him about the auditions business and to apologise for saying that I champion crap singing.

Could be a while.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:25 PM

Mr Cringe (may I call you Spleen), my point was not about your (entirely honourable) action in declining the offer to perform but about Mr Gnome's making of the offer in the first place which seems to imply that the magnificence of your tank top showed you to be one of the best in folk music.

We will be glad to see you at the Lewes Arms Folk Club (I cannot speak for the Royal Oak) but be prepared for the fact that you will probably be asked, the moment you walk in the door, if you would like to do a floor spot.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM

David el Gnomo

It appears that we agree on all points bar one. What to do about performers who CONSISTANTLY put in a poor show.

My point on this is that such people are so rare as to not constitute a real problem. Having a policy to deal with them is about as worthwhile as having a policy to deal with the occasion when the Glyndebourne chorus turn up. Not impossible; we have had individual members occasionally. Do you give them one song or thirty? We cannot decide our policy on ALL floor singers on the basis of something that rarely, if ever, happens.

Does anyone here believe that their way is the best?

Yes. Jim does.

Does anyone think it is the only way?

Yes. Jim does.

Of your way, he says -

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

Of my way, he says -

I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.

and -

If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:44 PM

I do like spoiling the game.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

Kad Sraigė Be prepared for the fact that you will probably be asked, the moment you walk in the door, if you would like to do a floor spot.

Oooh 'eck! I might have to sack the tank top for a self-retracting turtle neck...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

Kad Sraigë?

What a cunning linguist you are.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM

I try my best...

Blužnis šliaužioti

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tangledwood
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

"I have consistently asked of people on this thread what they would do about persistently bad singers - to date I have had no satisfactory reply

Jim Carroll "

Don't know if this would work Jim - record a session/concert, or excerpts therefrom, including the dodgy performer. If copies are given to a few regulars as well as the performer - "thought you might like a souvenir" - the bad one may make their own discovery without getting a sense of being under attack. If they don't you at least have "evidence" there which you can critique with them later.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST, Pete the hat
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:42 PM

Hi Jim
whats
yourpoint re persistantly poor singers
    Bar them?
    surgically remove there vocal cords.
    This thread was Folk club manners and its not good manners to be selective and Judgemental over others less vocal then yourself.
Kind regards Pete

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM

Is it true that Obama sings a good tune?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:44 PM

I'm back:-)

You don't spoil the fun at all, Bryan. A minor irritaion, nothing more.

1) We don't have a 'policy' to deal with poor performers. I am only saying that is how I handle things myself. Our club is not run by committee, just two organisers. If we did though why are you critisising the 'policy' of another club when a) You believe it doesn't matter, b) It 'rarely happens' and c) It does not affect you at all.

2) About 80% of your post answering my question is about what Jim says or does. Jim is perfectly capable of arguing with me for himself and has done so on numerous occasons. Can you not answer for yourself?

3) You said earlier I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. That is accusing me of lying. I do not lie and insist that you retract that statement immediately. I am not arguing 'because I am bored', as you say you are. I have never misrepresented anything I have done in real life and I resent the implication that I have.

4) You say - Alternatively, I could just be marking time while I wait for Jim Carroll to admit that I did not misrepresent him Maybe I am waiting for you to admit that I did not misrepresent you, as you suggested earlier on in the thread? When I took you to task on this you did nothing to deny it but just dismissed it with nothing but a churlish 'whatever'.

Now, will you accept that people can have a different viewpoint to you AND tell the truth or will you continue to perpetuate this lible against me?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM

OK but if Obama turns up will you give him a floor spot?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:25 PM

I tell you what, if he wanted to do Redemption Song... he'd probably make a right hash of it. But I'd listen.

Night all. Mixed feelings about getting up tomorrow ("some mornings are moving, but hard" (Debord)).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:27 PM

Morning has been canceled, we arise to celebrate but a bit later

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

"If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing."
If your policy is as stated in the first part of this sentence - by being prepared to put on a singer who cannot hold a tune, cannot remember the words and are incapable of communicating the song to an audience, yes, you are promoting bad singing - explain how you are not.   As far as I'm concerned, no apology needed.
Regarding your 'audition' point - I'll read through the thread when I've woken up fully (late night) and, if I have misread it, will be happy to withdraw my statement and apologise unreservedly.
No, I don't think 'my way' (whatever that is - expecting singers in public to be able to sing maybe?) is the only way. I expect those involved in running the clubs to have the answers. From what I've seen and read and heard - they haven't found them so far, and judging by the long threads on 'what's wrong with our clubs' I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Pete the Hat
How about offering help to improve their singing before they have to face an audience -0 and an audience has to face them - as we always did with our workshops when we were helping run clubs.
Re being 'judgmental' - can't really be bothered repeating what I said earlier on this thread, especially if you can't be bothered reading it before you comment on my opinions.
By the way, I don't sing any more and I made no great claim on my singing when I did - I'm not a bad listener though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:48 AM

David, you have made some quiet extraordinary attacks on me in the past quite often based on misreading what I have said or possibly misreading what somebody else has said and attributing it to me. Even getting an acknowledgement that you had made a mistake was uphill work.

Excuse me if I don't take your injured pride very seriously.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM

Ahhhhh. So now we have the root of the problem. Sometime in the past I attributed someone elses comments to you. Quite easy to do seeing as most of your postings consist of quoting other people. I then acknowledged my mistake and apologised if I remember rightly. I seem to have incorrectly assumed that would be the end of the matter. Once more I apologise. I did not realise that I needed to repeat the acknowledgement in this thread as well. Ok, fair enough then. Here it is again -

I acknowledge that I incorrectly attributed someone elses quote to Bryan some time ago. I apologise for that mistake. It has not happened since and will not happen again

Will that do?

Now can we get on? Will you also now acknowledge that I have not misrepresented you in this thread, as I have asked on numerous occasions. Now, onto your accusation that I have lied. What are going to do about that?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:20 AM

It's a matter of pots and kettles Dave. If you can't take it, don't give it out.

Will you also now acknowledge that I have not misrepresented you in this thread,

No, because you did in ways I have already described. Read the thread.

Now, onto your accusation that I have lied.

A lie is a deliberate untruth. I don't believe for a moment that you have been deliberately untruthful. You have, however, been inconsistent in your description of your policy and how you put it into practice. I am not the only person to have said so. I hoped that, by drawing attention to the fact, I could persuade you to clarify the situation.

I have nothing but admiration and respect for the excellent work you do at Swinton. I am just a little surprised that when the folk club scene comes under attack and I rise to its defence you seem to turn on me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:50 AM

What you actualy said, Bryan, was I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. . If I do one thing and then say I did something else that is a delibeate untruth and something I have not done. If your statement above is your way of retracting that accusation then it is a very poor one.

I do not believe the 'folk club scene', whatver that may mean to you, has come under attack in this thread and do not understand why you chose to defend something that needs no defense anyway. I suppose that is your prerogative, particularly as you may be bored and just enjoy the argument. I find it time now, however, to move on from fighting a loosing battle.

Much as you admire our work at Swinton I respect the work done at the Lewes Arms and am extremely surprised that you continue your career there. If in real life you act in the confrontational and aggresive manner that you use online it is very surprising that someone has not taken you task for it.

I will, eventualy, visit the Lewes Arms Folk Club and look forward to the time when I find out if you have the affrontary to call me a liar to my face. In the interim feel free to continue 'whatever':-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Ouch.

I'm afraid I can't apologise for your interpretation of what I say.

Please do visit the Lewes Arms Folk Club, Dave. Come and meet my friends on the committee. You will be made very welcome. Bring Muriel with you. You will both be offered floor spots.

Best wishes

Bryan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:36 AM

I will have just one more try, Bryan, at a single question, before dropping out of your vendetta altogether.

How can I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. be interpretted as anything other than you believe that I tell lies about what I do?

Put another way and even simpler, do you believe what I have said about how I run my folk club?

And of course if you are ever in the Swinton area be sure to come and see that I do act exactly as I have described. Don't expect a floor spot on a singers night if we already have 4 spots booked:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

Dave, the paragraph in your previous post starting "Much as you admire our work at Swinton I respect the work done at the Lewes Arms.." was such a deeply nasty personal attack that I am reluctant to continue any communication with you at all. It goes far beyond even the insults you imagine I have given you let alone anything I have actually said.

However, in the spirit of your last post, I will try.

A while ago you said "It is important as club organisers that we use each others experiences and knowledge to help run our own clubs better!"

I couldn't agree more. I am keen to learn how you do things at Swinton but I am a little confused by some of the things you have said. How can I get the confusion cleared up if any attempt on my part to point out what I see as inconsistencies are taken as accusations of lying? Of course I don't believe you are a liar. What possible reason could you have for lying?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

"How can I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. be interpretted as anything other than you believe that I tell lies about what I do?"

Actually, David, I didn't interpret it that way at all. I thought Bryan was saying that there's a difference between what you say if you're asked to describe Club Policy and what you say when you get talking about what you do in practice. Which doesn't make you dishonest, just inconsistent - and inconsistency is human (or gnomean).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

All getting a bit 'bigendian / littlendian' now, don't you think?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cretzon
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

A rambling thread, now deteriorating into egos. A shame, considering the wealth of knowledge on this site.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:19 PM

count me in on that - it's going nowhere and upsetting everyone - time to pull the plug

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM

Agreed, Silas and Cretzon. I am more than happy to take the discussion offline. First though, I would like to ask Pip, as a visitor to our club, what he views as the inconsistancies in what I have said. I thought I had explained the 'policy' (or lack of it!) of giving newcomers a spot on trust that they are OK and only restricting known bad performers. Not asking you to 'take sides' or anything daft like that, Pip, and no harm will come to our friendship, I assure you. It is just that I would realy like to know what these inconsistencies are so I can put them right before we quit the thread. I would value any other such advice as I thought I had already reconciled Bryan's perceived 'inconsistancies' but I was, apparantly, wrong!

Bryan, really looking forward to our meeting now that I know what you think is a particularly nasty personal attack. I will devise a few more on the journey down. I am sure you will give as good as you get though so I will be sure to bring my ear plugs:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: trevek
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

You know, reading this thread, largely written by people who should know better... I think the manners of the guy munching his nuts are more preferrable to some of you guys crunching each others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:39 AM

as someone new to the forum, I've followed this thread, initially with interest in the pertinent comments, but subsequently with the kind of painful doggedness one reserves for scratching a mosquito bite - you wished you hadn't but you just had to. I can almost understand why people waste their lives watching reality tv.

The ego-jousting has been incredible; read the thread back, you guys and blush! You have added not one jot to the discussion, but have shown yourselves up embarrassingly.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:42 AM

Bryan,
I have just re-read your posting and find that I was wrong to include you in the list of people who seriously suggested (and continue to suggest) that those of us proposing standards for singing in clubs seriously want auditions - your reference to such was one of a number of (somewhat facetious IMO) alternatives for choosing floor singers - I apologise.
The slanging match that is in full spate is getting us no nearer a conclusion as to what standards, if any, should be applied to choosing singers for the clubs.
Bryan dismissed my original example as a "strange lady of forty years ago" - (think I have got that right) implying (I think) that persistent bad singing isn't a problem - not in my (admittedly now somewhat limited) experience I'm afraid - as I have said in the past, it was one of the two major reasons for my quitting the scene altogether.
The last visit I made to a folk club was to a bleak, cold, unadorned (not even a poster) room with the thud of a juke-box bleeding up from the bar and an audience of around twenty people listening to a nationally known guest singing rather indifferent versions of songs - well indifferently, telling stories (not too badly) and playing tunes (competently-ish). The lowlight of the evening was a lady, obviously a regular stepping out to the front of the room and tunelessly stumbling her way through 'Danny Boy' from a crib-sheet. That was in a club I know to have been in existence for at least twenty years and it wasn't several decades ago - it was last year.
Here in Ireland the general technical ability of singers and musicians performing traditional material is streets ahead of most of the performances I encountered in the UK, - not to say that there aren't problems; there are, but they certainly aren't ones of low or non-existent standards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:59 AM

Here in Ireland the general technical ability of singers and musicians performing traditional material is streets ahead of most of the performances I encountered in the UK, - not to say that there aren't problems; there are, but they certainly aren't ones of low or non-existent standards.
Hence the comment by one 'lady' Not bad for an englishman

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:33 AM

Jim - with respect to your years and experience - I think it's difficult to generalise about quality of standards in clubs - whether in England or Ireland or anywhere else from one or two personal experiences here and there. There are certainly widely varying standards in clubs around the country - as has been discussed to death in this thread - but I didn't find anything spectacular in Waterford (for one example) when I was there last week. But why should I draw any conclusions about Irish music from one experience in Waterford?

As it happens, my last experience in a folk club over here was last week in a club where 20 floor performers, mainly regulars, did one song each on either side of the main band. The standard and commitment was very high from the floor performers, and the band - playing traditional stuff on smallpipes, whistles, accordion, guitar, hammered dulcimer - was superb.

Was either experience enough to generalise on? - I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:43 AM

Thank you for opening my eyes, jimslass. I have re-read and blushed. I apologise unreservedly to all for flexing my ego in public and I promise not to do it again. Lets get back to a sensible and constructive discussion.

There were two questions asked that were very pertinent to the discussion on standards

Jim Asked -

SHOULD PEOPLE WHO ARE UNABLE TO HOLD A TUNE, MEMORISE A TEXT WITHOUT THE AID OF A CRIB SHEET OR INTERPRET A SONG TO THE EXTENT OF COMMUNICATING IT TO THE LISTENER BE ENCOURAGED TO SING IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE?

and Bryan asked

As a matter of interest, how many times over what period have the folk club organisers here present actually found it necessary to tell anybody they were not good enough to have a floor spot?

I think there has only been one answer to the former and two to the latter to date. I think the answers to both would be of interest and use to most folk club organisers. To keep the thread on topic I also ask how many times and over what period have you had to bring a member of the audience or an act to task for 'bad manners'?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

First though, I would like to ask Pip, as a visitor to our club, what he views as the inconsistancies in what I have said.

I think to get the point of Bryan's argument you need to think like a lawyer (no offence to Bryan, or to lawyers). Here are the quotes Bryan took exception to:

There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club.

and

We have 28 singers nights a year at which ANYONE can do ANYTHING (public decency permitting:-) ) On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music.

OK, lawyer's hat (or wig) on. You're saying that what you do on guest nights, as opposed to singers' nights, is showcase the best in folk music. That implies that the people doing floor spots on a guest night are as good as TBIFM, or Bellowhead at least. But you can't know that they're that good unless you book all your floor spots on guest nights beforehand - which you don't. The night Nigel and I came to Swinton, I might have been awful for all you knew; Nigel might have been awful (if he'd sung (which he didn't (although he wouldn't have been if he had))).

What makes this argument especially pointless is that Bryan's not saying you should book all your floor spots on guest nights beforehand. If you'd said

On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music, with floor spots from a few performers who we trust to keep up the standard of the night

then I don't think there would have been any disagreement to start with.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Trevek
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:47 AM

I think Jim may have hit on a point I've been considering.

In some situations it is ok for anyone to sing, however in other situations the higher quality of singers/players usually serves its own purpose of alerting lesser talents that they'd be out of their depth and they proceed to censor themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:01 AM

Thanks , Pip. I herewith change my statement to your wording and appoint you lawyer to Swinton Folk Club. With no pay of course:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:31 AM

Spot on, Will Fly. We should not generalise on one experience. This is why discussions such as these are important and should get across views from a whole range of people who attend diferent clubs. That way we can learn from the experience of others.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:46 AM

http://www.dickmiles.com,completely irrelevant,I know,but I like to get this up somewhere once a day.thanks, Iwill go back to sleep.good night

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: HappyHag
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:05 AM

Hi,

I have just joined this forum - what an initiation, I spent two hours reading the posts on this thread before I had to admit defeat and go straight to the end, and now here I am adding to it - oh well.

I have an emergency technique which works with the occasional unpractised, tuneless and above all painfully SLOW rendition.

I maintain an appearance of perfect attentive politeness, and inside I am alternating between 'See, you aren't that bad after all, are you Julia? If they can do it, you certainly can!' and 'Restez zen!' (as they say at FranceTelecom). It is possible to get into an altered state of consciousness by focusing on the qualities of the sound without judgement.

On the other hand I wonder if it is possible to be too constrained by politeness when you get the same person time after time. If I haven't practised I don't want to perform and they should be the same - isn't there some way I can politely impose my view on them? The answer is 'no'.

Julia, Eastbourne

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM

I drop out for less than a day and calm and reason break out! If was paranoid, I might assume cause and effect but I think the real cause lies in the sensible balanced posts from Jim Carroll and Pip Radish. Thank you both.

I'll take up the discussions in separate posts.

In case anyone is curious about my absence, last night I (and several 1000 other people) were wandering the streets of Lewes which looked like this.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

Is that Julia who used to sing the spider song at the old Gravesend club?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

Jim Carroll

I have just re-read your posting and find that I was wrong to include you in the list of people who seriously suggested (and continue to suggest) that those of us proposing standards for singing in clubs seriously want auditions - your reference to such was one of a number of (somewhat facetious IMO) alternatives for choosing floor singers - I apologise.

Thank you, Jim. Perhaps my questions were a little facetious. The intention was to demonstrate the impossibility of knowing in advance whether someone was of sufficient standard to be given a floorspot. The only way we can judge their quality is by hearing them perform. All we can possibly know beforehand is that they want to sing or play.

Bryan dismissed my original example as a "strange lady of forty years ago" - (think I have got that right) implying (I think) that persistent bad singing isn't a problem

Yes, that is what I was implying. The reason I can't give an answer to your question is that it is one I have never had to deal with and feel that it is unlikely that I ever will. Yes, we have singers who are, perhaps, somewhat short of concert standard but I don't think I've ever met one who doesn't improve over time.

A while ago I quoted you as saying -

Why do people want to sing in a folk club? - because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are.

I have no idea what you meant when you said that was a bit hit-and-run. It could stand as a mission statement. We like to help people believe they are worth it.

By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards. Not by selecting the few who are good enough but by helping everybody to get better and, in my experience, they do.

We try and create the environment in which people can grow.

not in my (admittedly now somewhat limited) experience I'm afraid

That is, I think, the nub of the problem. I'm sorry that the club you went to last year was a dissappointment. I generally go to two a week and occasionally others. I hear about what's happening elsewhere. I go to several UK festivals. I don't recognise the world you describe. I'm sure those clubs must exist, but shop around a bit I think you would be pleasntly surprised. In particular, if you came to the Lewes Arms, I think you would find much to your liking.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:07 AM

well, I've been trying to keep pace with this thread and would like to applaud all for bringing it back from the brink of a slanging match to a sensible and good natured discussion once more.

Bryan, your club sounds great. Am sad I live too far away to visit.

I do visit a number of clubs on a not very regular basis, plus one on a very regular basis, and far back in the mists of time in this thread (or possibly a parallel one) I talked about a lady, at the club I regularly go to, who is causing exactly the kind of difficulty that others have also descirbed. She's enthusiastic, friendly, keen, comes along every time.... has a very small repertoire of songs that don't really fit in with what everybody else is there for and doesn't sing them very well, and has shown only a very small amount of awareness and improvement over the past 5 years or so but really not much - if she continues at this rate it'll be another 20 before she's actually enjoyable to listen to. Nobody at the club says anything bad to her, a few suggestions have been made which have I think led to the small improvements we have seen, but we're worried that she is putting other people off from becoming regulars, because they don't want to have to sit and listen to her every time.... and given that the club only just has enough regulars and semi-regulars to keep going, we might not be going in a couple of years, let alone 20. What do we do???

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM

James H: Nobody at the club says anything bad to her, a few suggestions have been made which have I think led to the small improvements we have seen, but we're worried that she is putting other people off from becoming regulars, because they don't want to have to sit and listen to her every time.... and given that the club only just has enough regulars and semi-regulars to keep going, we might not be going in a couple of years, let alone 20. What do we do???

James - I think you just have to bite the bullet and put it to her, quietly and privately, that she doesn't cut the mustard. It's really difficult, I know, and chances are that she will be very upset and feel put upon. But if the effect of her performance on the club is what you say it is, then it has to be done. It's very like telling a band member that he/she has to go because they're not suitable for the band - or telling a colleague at work that they have bad body odour (I've had to do that one in my time - and bloody awkward it was).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

Yes, everyone can imrpove over time... but how much? There's a guy who props up the bill at a club I sometimes go to - week in week out, he's always there and the MC always puts him on first. Must be a couple of years since I first saw him. He's improved, he really has. He's still got a repertoire of about six songs... all of which he reads from a book... and he's still off key a lot of the time. But when I first saw him he was off key almost all the time, and his voice was even harsher than it is now. So he's imrpoved, and if he can improve anyone can.

Maybe the MC should have taken him on one side some time ago... asked him to go away and put some work in before he came back. On the other hand, it's only one bloke... everyone else I've seen at the same club has been competent and a lot of them have been really good. I guess I don't quite share TheSnail's optimsim... maybe nobody's unimprovable, but some people are hard to bring up to a decent stnadard. But I don't really agree with Jim Carroll either... I don't think incompetence or toleration of incompetence is a great menace to folk clubs. New thread idea for anyone who wants it - What Is The Great Meance To Folk Clubs?

I mean the Great Menace obviously...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:46 AM

I am a great menace at folk clubs but I dunno about TO folk clubs:-)

Just a thought - and has occasionaly worked at ours. One of the resident musicians could accompany someone to improve their performance. At least they could try to practice a couple of times and, provided that they could keep in tune and time with the guitar/melodeon/paper and comb or whatever it may improve them.

Mind you, I was asked to accompnay someone once. Any idea how difficult it is to keep up with an out of time and out of tune rendition of a well known song? Nightmare:-(

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM

Sorry - should have added that I am not good enough to lead and my concertina could not drown out the guitar!

D.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:36 AM

OK - I've watched this thread for several days. Initially I was interested to see whether things I consider to be bad manners (eg: crunching crisps, walking in/out during songs in small venues, humming/singing absently along to ballads etc etc) were universally considered to be so. Then later I was just watching in horror to see whether the 'combatants' advocating different approaches to required standards would ever agree to disagree (my feeling being that there are 2 basic types of club: concert clubs who expect their audience to listen rather than participate and who thus feel it is their duty to provide high standard entertainment, and singers club who exist as a forum for people to have broadly similar musical tastes to share their songs and friendship for the evening). Now the thread seems to be about how you tell someone that their contributions are not suitable in some way, which reminds me of a thread entitled 'how to handle criticism' that was under discussion last year, and which perhaps gives an indication 9from the other side of the fence) of the potential pitfalls of trying to offer helpful criticism.

My personal feelings are that there is not necessarily an exact correlation between ability and likeability. I go to 2 clubs regularly and in each there are singers who are never going to be 'guest' standard, yet these people often contribute a great deal to the evening, because they have an affinity with the music and with the other people there. Both clubs welcome visitors, both provide forums for those who need to use words, or whose handling of a tune can be less than perfect, both book guests and still offer their 'less talented' regulars a song on a guest night, and both are considered to be among the best clubs in the region. These are venues I would choose every time over a concert club because the friendship is more valuable to me than the entertainment. I would far rather listen to a person who can waver out of tune, but understands the story of their song, or a nervous singer who keeps the words handy as a prop for emergencies but feels such an affinity with the song that they want to share it, than to a person who is more technically able, but who has only attended the club because they love to hear themselves, and is uninterested in either anyone else's contribution or the history of their own choice of song.

But these observations are purely personal. I suspect we all have a slightly different perception of what is 'good', what is 'acceptable' and 'what a folk club is for'. Maybe that is the joy of the folk scene. And maybe it is not always about maximising audiences, but rather about making sure that sufficient different outlets exist that we can all find our own place of comfort, whether that is a 100+ concert club or a dozen people in a singaround.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:47 AM

Will,
"and put it to her, quietly and privately, that she doesn't cut the mustard."
Just a quick note - we're still bringing our stuff back into the house from the fallout shelter - put there in case McCaine had won the election (so nobody takes that last comment seriously - feeble as it was - it was a joke).
I have to say that throughout all the workshops we helped to run we NEVER had to give up on anybody - though we did have to work harder on some than on others and we can never claim to have produced virtuoso singers.
One bloke came to us totally unable to hold a tune; really desperate.
He had a wonderful sense of humour; he announced that the first song he ever sang for us was entitled Chevy Chase (one of the longest in the repertoire) and then watched the relief in our faces as he sang Bobby Shaftoe.
At one stage his brother told us "You're wasting your time - you'll never get our Gordon to sing in tune".
We worked with him for months and eventually had a break-through and got him singing in perfect tune.
His brother presented us with a book in gratitude "Don't have to listen to the bugger torturing and murdering songs any more".
He never became a 'great' singer, but it would be nice to think he was still singing.
Will respond in full later later - work calls.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: matt milton
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:27 PM

Regarding "crib sheets", it was only recently that a fellow guitarist showed me three discrete sheets of paper sellotaped to the top of his guitar, letting me in on the secret that thousands of guitar players use. When he played, you didn't even notice – whenever he looked down you just assumed he was looking at his hands as he played.

He mentioned it was something John Lennon used to do. When I mentioned this to other guitarist friends they looked at me like I was a bit slow for never having heard of this; it was something they all did.

Now I do it with new songs I don't know well yet. It's like having a prompter at the side of the stage. I'm willing to bet that people who've disparaged use of lyrics, "cheat sheets" and "crutches" on this thread have seen hundreds of guitarists using this trick and never realized.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM

Mmmm, poor old unaccompanied singers can't stick their crib sheets anywhere - except where they're told to by people who don't 'allow' their use!

To change the subject slightly, or rather to get back to the original thread of bad manners in a club, one that didn't get mentioned or taken up earlier, until Guest AW did so, is joining in with other people's songs, or as he/she says "humming/singing absently along to ballads", and, it has to be said, not always humming or singing ABSENTLY! There are some songs and versions that are so well known that they are almost communally held within the scene, and somehow it works with them, but when it's something that is rarely sung or to which the singer brings their own individual style, it is just so off-putting, especially with ballad-style songs where the singer would normally completely lose themselves in the song, and can't do so because there's this other voice in their ears. Horrible, and SO rude! In my opinion, of course.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

I completely disagree Barbara. IMHO it is participative music and if someone really wants others not to participate then it is up to them to make that wholly clear and even then to consider if they are being self aggrandising in that request.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

You're entitled to disagree, Richard, but would you do it to an artist that's booked as a guest at a club? And personally, I don't believe ALL songs are/were participative, certainly not within the tradition.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

On the question of the better standard of performance in Ireland, could that partly be due to the seriousness with which music is taken in schools there compared to England? Suppose that ought to be a separate thread really.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:26 PM

I've been to many clubs and Festivals and there is one thing which is certain, if the artist/performer sings a well known song with a chorus then everyone will join in, but isn't that what the chorus is for? I agree however that some songs are not 'joiny in' ones.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Effsee
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM

Singer/guitarists having a "cheat sheet" taped to the top of their guitars have been around for decades!
It's an "Aide Memoire", more likely a "song list", than a set of words to everything they are going to sing!
For Gawd's sake, there's only so much room on the top of of a guitar.
I've always been of the opinion that you can't do a song justice if you have to read it as you sing it.
If you can't commit it to memory...it's not the song for you!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:14 AM

For Gawd's sake, there's only so much room on the top of of a guitar.

I'm getting visions of a strip of paper covered in tiny letters, getting tinier towards the bottom...

"And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and what does that say?
And reflect it from the something so that all men can something else
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I PLEASE TURN OVER... Buggeration..."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:06 AM

Acorn4
"On the question of the better standard of performance in Ireland, could that partly be due to the seriousness with which music is taken in schools there compared to England?"
No-it's because of the fact that the music is taken seriously - period.
Over the last few years the music here has made enormous strides because it has become recognised as a serious performing art. Youngsters are flocking to it, guaranteeing that it will survive for at least another two generations. One of the basic differences has been that there has been a move towards traditional music by the musicians and singers rather than away from it, as seems to be the case in the UK - in other words, you know what you are going to find when you open the tin.
Sorry - I'm really having to take part in this discussion on the move; the West Clare Traditional Singing Festival starts here tonight where I guarantee there won't be a crib-sheet in sight, where the general standard of singing will knock your eye out and where nobody will say "We have enough masters, without adding more." It's called 'having pride in what you do'
I'll be back sucker.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:40 AM

Richard Bridge - sorry I didn't mean to imply that joining in the chorus, or even the last lines of songs where it has become a tradition to do so, is a problem. Quite the opposite - there can be a real pleasure in being part of that experience.

I was thinking more of those times where a singer has put a lot of thought into how they wish to express a song ( where each word and phrase is important and subtle differences in timings can be crucial) and other people hum or sing along without that appreciation of the care that has been taken.   We are lucky enough to have some very accomplished singers of traditional ballads in our area and I find, as an audience member, I can be thoroughly absorbed by their interpretations ... but not when I am hearing the tune hummed slightly out of sync from somewhere else in the room.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: matt milton
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM

More often than not, folk audiences are a fairly sensitive bunch to when to sing and when not to. If someone is doing a free-floating, atmospheric, taking-liberties-with-the-meter rendition of a song that lends itself to that sort of thing (eg She moves through the fair) then it's unlikely anyone's going to try to join in.

Whereas with catchy chorus songs, you'd have to be a performer with a Van Morrisonean ego to think it was spoiling anything. (And it would also rather beg the question why any such performer would be choosing to play such rousing, inviting music in the first place...)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:39 AM

Joining in on a non-chorus song when not invited to ought to be declared a capital offense - and as for popping the cheek with the finger..........
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

Then the ring from out of a small muslin bag which she had in the pocket of her apron she instantly drew...

That ought to do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM

"I completely disagree Barbara. IMHO it is participative music and if someone really wants others not to participate then it is up to them to make that wholly clear and even then to consider if they are being self aggrandising in that request."
How can singing Lord Gregory possibly be described as participatory?
And what do you do about the eejits who invariably 'know a better version and are going to join in with that one come what may.
Walter Pardon was forced to abandon two of his favourite songs because of clowns like this.
How about LET THE PEOPLE SING - their own song, without interference.
A bit like borrowing Turner's paintbrush to fill in the bit he missed, don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

There was a lady, and I use the term loosly, used to visit Swinton club on a regular bais. Known locally as 'Black Margaret', I would guess for her hair colour but it could have been her character for all I know:-) She used to insist on joining in with everything - even if she didn't know it! Funniest was when Stanley Accrigton was singing one of his very recent songs - probably penned in the last 4 hours - and she happily joined in all the words, about one beat behind him. It was very un-nerving. Stan coped remarkably well but always asks if she still comes to the club:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

If you would care to read what I said, you will see that those who do not want anyone else to spoil their rendition can explicitly say "Please do NOT join in or hum along".

All they need then to consider is whether that is conceited or whether there is a different explanation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

Richard,
They shouldn't have to; some people may not welcome humming, stamping feet or clapping hands but are far to polite to mention it (like Walter Pardon was).
I was always taught to wait until I was asked.
Must take my tin whistle along to to the next Dolores Keane concert - she sings participatory folksongs doesn't she (sort of)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

I would agree, Jim. (Is that twice in one week? What's the world coming to:-) )

Richard - surely the very people who sing quiet and introspective songs are generaly quiet and intropective by nature. It may be OK to tell a loud and uncouth bugger like me to ask people to keep quite but surely you wouldn't expect someone who just wants to sing gentle songs, who already may be a little nervous, to lay down the law before they sing would you?

I think it sometimes rude to join in uninvited. Even more so when you get people drowning out the singer of the song.

The other side is established people who want to do their own arrangement of a popular song - My mate Phil Atkinson is normaly a loud plank basher, in the nicest possible way of course, but his version of 'The Holy Ground' defies anyone to yell 'Fine Girl You Are'. I have a copy if anyone would like it btw:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: HappyHag
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

Richard Bridge - no, I have never sung a spider song, unless you mean 'I know an old lady who swallowed a fly' which I used to sing to my children. Sorry, ot.
Julia, Eastbourne

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Richard Bridge.
I did a gig at a folk club in london,I did a version of a traditional song,somebody in the audience decided to join in,but they were using different chords to me.
no it wasnt ok,its good manners to ask[IAM NOT TALKING ABOUT JOINING IN CHORUSES]but deciding to accompany someone who doesnt need any accompaniment,or already has their own perfectly good accompaniment.
I dont know if it is a full moon,but you dont seem to take it in to your cranium ,that I have never[as an organiser] not allowed a floor singer to sing,but I repeat, an organiser has that right if they wish to do so,they are organising/financing the club.,whether I wish to exercise that right is a different matter[I never did ].

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

You just had to get 666 didn't ya!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

Would 11 o' clock on the 11th of this month be a good time to wrap up this thread?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:04 PM

11/11/1918 would have been a good time to wrap up this thread ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

And a good time to stop un-named guests from making supercilious comments? (sorry - couldn't reist!)

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:32 AM

Isn't it bad manners for somebody to try to stop discussions which they might have lost interest in but obviously others haven't (often referred to as the "mummy, I'm bored" syndrome)?
I'm delighted that this thread has continued (in spite of minor hiccups) as long as it has - it shows people care about their clubs.
Having a wonderful time - wish you were all here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM

We're still here Jim, to some of us you are pushing an already open door, to the others you may as well be talking to the door!

Go for it....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

I think there is plenty more to be discussed here. I am particularly interested to here Jim Carroll's response to my post of 06 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:40 AM

I agree with both Jim and Bryan - we do care and there is plenty more to be discussed if people wish. But Bryan, perhaps if you word it differently you might get a response - there were only statements in that post! :-)

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM

My post was in response to Jim's in which he said -

If your policy is as stated in the first part of this sentence - by being prepared to put on a singer who cannot hold a tune, cannot remember the words and are incapable of communicating the song to an audience, yes, you are promoting bad singing - explain how you are not.

and his follow up at 06 Nov 08 - 03:42 AM .

I was answering his question and I wonder what his resposne is.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

If I may be so bold, Bryan, as to address one of your points. Not on Jims behalf but on my own -

I'm sure those clubs must exist, but shop around a bit I think you would be pleasntly surprised.

The statement above started with 'that is the nub of the problem' and I agree entirely. We are possibly trying to compare apples and oranges. You are a very lucky person indeed not to have come across a, how shall we put it, 'non-improver'. Neither me nor Jim have said, I don't think, that the quality is generaly bad. All we are saying is that we have come across these 'non-improvers' (Decided I like the term:-) ) and the whole point is what shall we do with them.

The feeling is that if we continue to put them on during popular guest nights then there is a chance that they could put some people off. And have indeed done so in Jims example! So, the choices are, in my view -

1. Do nothing. Accept that they may never get better. Limit the 'damage', as I try to do.
2. Do something more positive, as you do, and offer them a chance to improve at workshops. Not sure what will happen if you ever come across someone that doesn't improve but that's hypothetical anyway!
3. Ignore it altogther.

I am sure there must be more and I would consider other alternatives openly if people can point me in the right direction.

Boils down to the questions you and Jim keep asking again. From you - How many bad performers have you come across and in what time frame? I would add and what did you do about it? And from Jim - Is it right to put someone who is realy bad in the spotlight week after week?

I think that's what it comes down to anyway and those are the questions I believe we should be getting answers for so we can make an informed decision about how we (the royal we - club organisers) go about the issue at our clubs.

I welcome any response and advice.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

I think I'll just wait for Jim's reply if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

Not at all, Bryan. Does anyone else want to add to the options or answer the questions?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:43 AM

BTW - Forgot to ask. I have in my possesion a CD of '25 years at the White Lion'. Gives a good indication of the quality of some of our regulars. If anyone wants a sample PM me and I will happy to send an MP3 version. If you like it and want to send a couple of quid the producers of the CD would be very grateful.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

One of my pet hates is uninvited 'joiners-in'. Fairly recently I embarked on a ballad at a singaround and soon realised that the bloke next to me was singing along with me quite loudly! I had to stop and remind this person that my performance was not a duet! On another occasion, whilst I was singing from a stage, someone in the audience joined in in a completely different key ...

In my opinion ballad interpretation is a very personal thing and joining in is very bad manners.

People who insist on dictating the rhythm and pace of a singer's performance during refrains and choruses are also, imo, displaying crass rudeness.

Personally, I blame all those 'folk choirs' of the 60s and 70s who made people believe that 'dirgey' bellowing and harmonising are 'de rigeur' and must be indulged in at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:07 PM

I take your point, Shimrod, especially about sitting next to the human echo box, but am forced to disclose that dirgey bellowing (a brilliant album title, if I ever heard one) is one of my favourite things about folk music...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

DeG - I would add a further "solution"

4. Apply psychological pressure. This is worth a thread on its own :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

I'll try it on you on Monday, John. When you see all those people in the 'front row' hanging on your every word I'm sure you won't get nervous:-D

Hehehehe.

David el evil Gnomo

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:38 AM

Bryan,
Sorry for the delay for responding in full - we gave our Traveller talk yesterday and the singing week-end finishes today so I'll try to do so in this evening - alchohol intake permitting.
One of the topics under discussion here was raised at last night's excellent concert - that of joining in uninvited. The perp was a very fine Scots singer who really has been on the scene long enough to know better, and was - eventually - glowered into desisting by her immediate neighbours. It is extremely bad manners - and, in my opinion - extremely arrogant.
One of the most heartening aspects of the week-end was the age spread, particularly the handful of excellent younger singers who turned up.
Part of the procedure was a singing class - these are becoming a regular feature over here - I have to say I have mixed feelings about the form these take - maybe a thread on teaching sometime? (this is beginning to sound like Alasdair Cook's 'Letter From Munster').
Now - "SONG - MUSIC - DRINK; as Father Jack has been heard to remark.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

I might have differed on the very fine singer in those circs, and have found the joining in acceptable (although man or woman should "know their limitations") - but in a singaround or song-session or session I thinnk it is for those who do not want others to join in to make that very clear, and to consider whether they are the ones being conceited or arrogant. If doing a song or tune in an unusual way in a singaround or session I think it is also good manners for the "leader" to make it clear in advance that would-be participants need to listen and follow.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM

Richard, I agree that folk music is participatory. That does not mean that it is right, or acceptable, to join in with everything, no matter how good a singer you may be. It is about showing respect for the singer, and the song.

Even in a singaround or session, each singer takes his turn and in my opinion it is up to them to say whether the others should join in, not the other way around. Even then, in most cases when someone says "here's one you can join in with" it should usually be taken as an invitation to join in the chorus, not the whole bloody song.

There may be exceptions in some clubs and singarounds, where it may be the custom, but even then one should show some sensitivity towards songs, or singers, for whom it is clearly inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:09 PM

Our singing tradition is, with very few exceptions, a solo one (wassails, sea shanties and such like excluded).
Time and again I have seen peoples' efforts naused up by insensitive egotists who want to show that they know the songs as well as the singer.
Why should singers have to ask that people should not join in - it should go without saying and it is arrogant to assume otherwise.
Please tell me what Walter Pardon should have done when people joined in with his singing (he was part of a sing-around in his market town of North Walsham for years); should the onus have been on him stop people making a free-for-all of his songs?
The best example of an audience on an ego-trip was one night at a London club - not that long ago, when the singer embarked on Scarborough Fair. He had chosen (in his stupidity I suppose) to use the beautiful minorised Kidson tune - the audience couldn't make up their mind - half of them joined in (verse and chorus) with the well-known MacColl/Littlewood version collected from Mark Anderson while the other half launched into the Simon and Garfunkel adaptation - result, an absolute cacophony   
It is not even a question of joining in on the songs, a certain amount of sensitivity is required on choruses.
Walter got extremely upset when some audiences decided to both harmonise and slow down choruses making them clever-clever dirges.
Unless you wish to reduce folk-singing to community singing before kick-off the individual singer - not the audience, must call the shots - he/she has to be the interpreter - the audience is there to listen and to help out if invited.
I think I'm beginning to see why the club scene is in such a mess if this is representative of current thinking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

Jim.the same goes for musicians ,something that you have practised hard on, can be completely ruined by other musicians joining in.Wrong Chords,instrument out of tune with yours etc.It is equally more difficult if the artist is well known, an asset to any club,never puts a foot wrong when performing,but is absolutely hopeless when trying to play along.Even a tune that I may have just written,with no idea of any key changes etc he will play along.This is a very relaxed sing around
(after writing on here I need to relax)I have no wish to stir up any trouble, but it certainly puts me off performing unless I play for everyone to join in.Sometimes however it is nice to try something new on an audience.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:13 AM

Thanks Alan - that's exactly the display of bad manners I was referring to.
Has anybody come across another menace we have witnessed on a number of occasions (not in clubs, but in music sessions - though, taking Richard's argument to its logical conclusion, there's no reason why it shouldn't happen anywhere)?
In many of our local music sessions the musicians will often have a 'song break' where they invite singers up. On at least half a dozen occasions we have come across musicians who will attempt to accompany singers, uninvited of course, (time to do what was done to Paul Newman in the Hustler maybe!!!).
Uninvited joiners-in, harmonisers, would-be-accompanists, etc, as far as I'm concerned, should be made as welcome at a folk club as mobile phones or display flatulists.
I won't even start about wandering bodhran, banjo, piano-accordeon, twelve-string kalashnikov, spoons, bottle-and-coin, or anything that comes to hand players who invite themselves into sessions in order to drown the other musicians out.
Back later, now the visitors have gone home.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:46 AM

We had one singer singing a song about a bird singing in a tree.At this point a person in the sing around started playing a bird warbler.Although the singer was clearly getting upset he persisted with it.With two verses still to go the singer picked up his drink and through it over the Warbler.He missed and drenched the poor chap by his side.That singer has not been seen again or his wife who is a joy to listen to.Thinking about it the poor chap that got soaked has not been seen since.
The other thing Jim ,similar to what your saying, is that singers will sing the chorus of the version they know which may not be your version. Another problem is that during your song some anticipate your ending and do a long closing note. This is very off putting particularly if you have a number of verses to go.Instead of shutting up they continue to try and close the song.I love people singing along with me, but I wish they would just listen to what I am doing.
Alan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:20 AM

Jim - Maybe the singers are being allowed into the session to provide practice for the musicians in song accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:36 AM

I tend to agree with you, Jim,However there have been a few occassions when someone spontaneously sings a harmony that is really good.
on the occassion,when I was guesting at a london folk club,and another concertina player, joined in playing a different chord progression,I was flabbergasted.
on the other hand I have no problem,with the club where the organiser makes bird /sheep calls,I am prepared for it,and try either not to include songs that feature birds/ sheep,or to turn it to my advantage as a performer by making a joke out of it,sometimes it pays to be easy going,and not lose the head.
organisers choose which guests to book,but guests are under no obligation to play any club ,that they dont fancy.
I can understand the guy pouring beer over someones head,but in the cool light of day it wasnt the best solution.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM

"it wasnt the best solution. "
Probably not - perhaps he should have poured liquid manure.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

(back at work now) (no computer at home). I'm relieved to see people agreeing with me that persistant and innappropriate joining in counts as bad manners ( wasn't sure if it was just me!). Most contributors agreeing with this (BB, Jim Carroll etc) are feeling the annoyance from the performer's point of view, which I can see must be tremendously off-putting - I guess people sometimes feel it has been a pointless excercise to work hard at interpreting and presenting a song (or tune) if other people are just going to ignore their efforts and sing their own version anyway.

But can I also emphasise that it is really annoying when you are a (mere) member of the audience. I can sometimes be trying to follow a song and find myself clamping my teeth with restrained anger if all I'm getting is a tune hummed, or words whispered with no reference to the singer's choice of timing, sense of story etc. Trouble is - what can you say? If I complain I have no way of knowing whether I am in a minority of one, with everyone else present enjoying the layers of sound. I risk making enemies of friends and turning a personal irritation into a bad atmosphere for all.

Just to be clear - I'm not talking about choruses, or even occasions where the club convention is to contribute to certain places in certain songs, but only what, for want of a better covering term, one may call ballads - songs that are much better listened to than sung along with.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM

Firstly, hello group - I'm a new member. I possibly should have introduced myself previously, but hey ho.

As a newbie to folk, this thread has been quite intriguing. Myself and friend shall be attending an evening singaround in the next few days. It shall in fact be my first, though I hope not my last!

Over the last few weeks I have set to heart a small handfull of songs to sing solo and unacompannied. I hope to sing one or two of these on the night, courage prevailing.

I can remember them perfectly well while singing alone or indeed whilst among friends, but I do fully intend to take along a few discreet well-eared, coffee-stained and bath-crinkled sheets of paper, 'justincase'.

As a beginner, of course I wish to do my best and as such, I have made an effort to fully memorise the songs I have learned thus far.

But I think if I were expected to attempt to sing without even being able to have any kind of security blanket to hand, the anxiety of knowing I didn't have the notes with me to glance at, would probably be enought to ensure I hit a blank, feel consequently very horrid, and quite possibly never want to try again!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

May I make a suggestion Rosie?

How about putting just one main word from each line, nice and large, on a piece of paper, then dropping it discretely to the floor or onto a nearby table?

you'll probably only need one key word if you do dry up, and knowing that the prompt is there if you need it will probably mean you won't need it!

And if you do, a quick glance is unlikely to spoil your flow. But you wont have a paper screen between you and the audience.

Just a thought.

Tom

...who is relieved to be given permission not to join in! I always feel everyone assumes I'll know every song ever written, and as guest am expected to help to lead the throng-thringing. Luckily I learned the Patent Garbutt Chorus Gargle at the great man's own knee, so can carry off a silent, note perfect rendition upon first hearing - complete with simultaneous counter-tenor and basso profundo 'hummonies.'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

Throwing beer, you're better off without him. Sounds like a prat.

If you're going to be that thin skinned and volatile - you're not really safe out on your own.

Its sounds to sense you get the odd song buggered up in some way by the audience. The guy sounds like total moron. Mostly its someone who just gets it wrong - thinks he knows the song better than you, thinks he's god's gift to humour, thinks he knows a brilliant accompaniment.

Nick Fenwick - the Geordie used to have a battery of amusing insults for hecklers and act violators. When you're pro - you learn to deal with these situations as well as you can - without unpleasantness. if you're visiting somewhere strange you have to be careful - you might be traumatising the local care in the community basketcase.

either way, throwers of beer are the villains of the piece.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

Dear Sleepy Rosie,

I hope that your debut goes well (or should I have said "break a leg"?).

I'm sure you'll do fine and that if you do make the odd mistake everyone will be extremely tolerant. You're obviously putting a lot of work into your singing - keep it up - singing in public really does get easier with practice (practice, practice, practice).

Why not set yourself a target of dispensing with the notes after a few sessions? And then go on to slightly more difficult songs and/or tunes etc. Also try and record and listen to yourself.

Finally, learn how to take criticism (the constructive kind, of course). Workshops, providing that they're well run, are an excellent way of improving your singing, but you need to approach them in the right frame of mind - open and receptive to new ideas but not 'thin-skinned' and defensive.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:46 AM

Arrghhhh! PLEEEEAAAASE no more using this 'myself' when you mean 'me' or 'I'

This is not a dig at genetically poor spellers or mangled grammar, but this 'creep' of usage - it's getting everywhere. I had a memo from my manager last month asking 'send your answers back to myself ASAP' how ludicrous is that?

I am going with a friend, or a friend and I, not, for the love of God, Myself and a friend are going. My eyes are watering ! Resist this gruesome expression!Please!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:02 PM

Is yourself you getting yourself's undergarments in a kerfuffle over thisself, Jimslass? Eh but?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

Jimslass - please could you perhaps try to avoid being so very impolite and unwelcoming to a new arrival making her first post? Language changes over time, whether one likes it or not, and there are many regional variations which may be incorrect to some eyes, but perfectly acceptable to others. If you are offended by other people's use of grammar perhaps I may humbly suggest that you might be advised not to visit web fora such as this one at all - purely for your own comfort and safety of course? Thank you so very kindly none-the-less for your contribution. Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

Hi Sleepy.....

Good luck and have lots of fun singing in clubs. The advice I would offer is at first focus on a handful of songs, and get used to singing them well before expanding your repertoire. I used to give the same advice to new members of a group I used to belong to - and the music hall company I rejoined this year.

In my opinion you will get much more pleasure from singing a few songs really well than a lot of songs 'half-known', and to know a song is not just learning the words and tune but also interpreting the stories and nuances and really making the songs your own. That comes from practice and repetition, then build up your repertoire. But most of all, enjoy what you are doing and let your enjoyment come across to the audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

Sleepy Rosie - don't worry, that was just a friendly welcome from JimLass, proves you are welcome as part of the pack and safe to snarl at.


(but, grammatically, he she or it is right! Snork!)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Bryan,
"All we can possibly know beforehand is that they want to sing or play."
There was never any question (certainly not as far as I'm concerned) that any singer who wished to was given one bite of the cherry; as you say, how else would we know whether they could sing or not. The argument is about whether people who wished to sing were consistently given spots before they had conquered the rudiments. SHOULD PEOPLE BE ENCOURAGED TO PRACTICE IN PUBLIC?

"persistent bad singing isn't a problem...... "
As I said before "ding-ding; I'm on the bus" Not to you maybe, but others suggest that it is to them. But the question has to be; is the best place for singers to overcome the rudiments of singing, in front of an audience? Apart from the effect that a non-singer has on the other residents, what image of the club – and folk song in general – does a visitor take away from a club which persistently presents singers who can't sing? Is it unreasonable to expect a 'singer' to be able (at the very least) to hold a tune and not to have to rely on a text to get through the song before they sing it in public?

"..... because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are".
I have persistently argued that virtually anybody can sing, but I have always qualified this by saying "if they put the work in first".

"Yes, we have singers who are, perhaps, somewhat short of concert standard"
Again you are dodging behind phrases like 'glass ceilings' 'virtuosos' and 'exclusion'. The argument has never been about singers reaching "concert standards" before they perform in public; it has always been about mastering the rudiments.

"hit-and-run".
Sorry – a knee-jerk on my part, made when this thread was generating more heat than light – I apologise.

"By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards".
Not if you are consistently putting on (or urging others to put on) singers who can't master the basics you're not.

" Not by selecting the few who are good enough but by helping everybody to get better and, in my experience, they do."
Again, loaded phraseology – nobody has suggested that only 'the few' are good enough to sing; we are saying that in order to present our music in a good light, basic standards should first be achieved.

""not in my (admittedly now somewhat limited) experience I'm afraid" That is, I think, the nub of the problem......"
I left the club scene principally because I believed that the 'near enough for folk-song' crowd had finally taken over the asylum. Arguments like this only serve to convince me that I was right.
I have no doubt whatever that there are clubs where the standards are high enough not to give the impression that folk singing is artless and inept; nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones, but that doesn't change the fact that clubs I have visited confirm my experience and that of others I know far more familiar with the UK club scene.
I have heard it argued on this forum that not only are standards unnecessary, but they are undesirable, the inference being that the music is really not worth the effort – not for me I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

Surely, the fact of Bryan's agreeing with 'persistent bad singing isn't a problem' simply means that it's a problem that he hasn't come across, rather than it not being a problem to anyone if and when it does happen, as I'm sure it is/would be.

I am relieved that others feel that it is up to the singer to say that other people are welcome to join in with a whole song, rather than saying they don't want people to join in. I have a strong aversion to 'everyone in on everything' sessions, so I don't go to them. A singaround is just that, with each person having the opportunity to sing in turn.

And Sleepy Rosie, there's lots of good advice here - and if you respect the songs, chances are you'll do fine. Lots of luck, and enjoy yourself (is that as bad as 'myself'? :-) ).

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:53 PM

Oh dear.

There are two threads of argument running here now, and I have tried to bite my tongue but I have to come back on both.

First there is the "You're not good enough" view. Second there is the "Don't join in unless I tell you" view which for me implies something of the first.

Now let me say that I don't believe that things are "good enough for folk". We should all (and I do) try to do as well as possible. That, surely, is in the nature of singing or playing in public. I think it is obvious that the arrival of the expression was a nice piece of British self-deprecation, a deflection, what lawyers in the 1970s would have called a "confession and avoidance".   People who think that people who say it are expressing the view that incompetence is good enough in folk music or song misread what is said - in my view. However, I do take exception to "artless" as a term of criticism. It is the essence of farouche arts and performance that they are without the artifice of high art.

I also believe that people who do not bother to try let both themselves and the genre down. This applies (amongst others) to a nearly semi-pro I know (no names no packdrill) who seems to ascribe to the school of thought that the top 4 strings of a 12 string are Bb, Bnatural, Eb and E natural, and another true semipro who has a guitar worth about 2 grand but uses strings that cost about 2 dollars a set and changes them about every 2 months - oh and a nearly semipro fiddler who "plays" when unable to stand. And people who can read dots but couldn't swing with a rope around their neck. None of that justifies telling them that they are not good enough to play or sing (although it might lead to me running away to avoid the latter). It doesn't justify shutting out singers who can't sing, or who can't memorise words, either. It is not a competition. It is not a hierarchy.

Is it bad manners to impose when you may cause discomfort by your performance - well, yes, but so is farting in public. It's not a hanging offence. Is it bad manners to tell another that they are not good enough? In my view, yes, and clearly so and worse. That (IMHO) is what stops people starting to play or sing. The former only dissuades the audience.


Now I come to the "don't join in" view. I have agonised about posting what I am about to post. I have sent it to "sensitive" friends to review for me in advance (they approve). I am desperate not (likely falsely) to say or imply that I am better than anyone else. That is something that I find offensive in others. I do what I do as well as I can - although my views as to what is better or worse may not be the same as others.

It seems to me that resticting joining in - unless there is a very gocent reason - runs the risk of excluding the most magical of moments: the tingle (or as it has been called elsewhere, "the Miskin tingle").

Now I'm not one to blow my own trumpet, in fact I'm full of insecurities and self doubt, but it seems I finally have to.

One Sweeps I hoiked my mandolin out in a singaround and a bloke said to me afterwards "How did you do that, they were original songs and you've never heard them and you knew exactly what I was about to do before I did it?"

A while before that while Jacqui was alive, we were at a sort of acoustic club, and there was a plank player there. He listened to us do our couple of songs in the first half, and then in the second he said "Can I come up with you?" We said "Well we're going to do X and Y, do you know them?" He said "I know the format". He was right (if a bit loud).

Then there was a Tenterden, and I was flying that year. One bloke (a professional) did a song in the 8 Bells in C sharp and I did quietly and tentatively look for the accompaniemnt, and damn me next time he did it he said "I did this in the 8 Bells and Richard found all the right notes" (I comment, the capo helped a lot). That time of course I screwed it up!

Same year, a different professional (an international pro) said to me as we went off on the Sunday "You're playing has been one of the highlights of the festival for me. You've never met any of these people but it sounds like you've rehearsed the songs together".

Now this is not because I am good or have any special talent. It's because if a musician listens really hard he can tell a fraction ahead of time (usually) where someone is going next in a song. Anyone can do it so long as they do not tense up (so I could not do it if put "on the spot" and stressed).

Some years before Royston and I were giving "Haul Away for Rosie" a shellacking in the Dog and Bunny in Maidstone when the Barden had a session there, and some bloke was cooking up a storm on the guitar behind us (we were in "B"). Sounded super-great, a sort of blues riff against the repeating lines in the shanty.

This serendipity is one of the greatest things about our music. Don't shut it out with egos and formalism. Please.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:08 PM

Thanks for that, Richard B. I grew up with the understanding that when people join together (whether they know the song or not) like that, THAT is where the Music is. The combination is what makes the conversation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

You have no idea how relieved I am Melissa to see even one person say that!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

It is the essence of farouche arts and performance that they are without the artifice of high art.

I have no clue whatsover what 'the essence of farouche arts' and 'the artifice of high art' means. If, by bringing out these expresions, you intend to exclude people from your arguements, Richard, then you have suceeed. Well done, you have shown me up to be the uneducacted Gnome I obviously am!

I will say however that if you are saying that anyone should be able to join in with anything then why on earth are you using phrases that one needs need an Oxford degree to understand?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM

Oh, sorry, and you still have not responded to my point about someone who is not confident enough to tell people not to join in.

D.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say, Richard , but I'd also guess that you'd also have a pretty good idea of when NOT to play as well. And you mention LISTENING in your post which never seems to get as many mentions as it perhaps should do.

I love playing with people and though I like folk music it's only one of a number of forms of music I enjoy. The interaction of people playing together and sparking ideas off each other - or harmonising - or improvising - have always been at the root of the music that I really adore. As an example, I went and watched John Etheridge and Christian Garrick play last night and the sheer joy and electricity between the players (against wonderful rhythm playing) was just breathtaking and brings a tear of pure pleasure to my eye at the best bits. It's not folk but I make very little distinction between good music of whatever form (don't get me started on Mahler's 10th or the joys of William Byrd)

But there's little worse than people doing it really badly. If you want to guarantee a really grim experience 8 times out of 10 just say the words 'how about we play a 12-bar blues together'... and cringe as people run up and down endlessly boring pentatonic scales.

I often feel that I probably shouldn't really be contributing to a folk forum as so much of what I like seems so at odds with what people try and uphold. I still enjoy a lot of traditional music, play an increasing amount of Irish and Scottish session music but would hate there to be no opportunity to join with people as those together musical moments are some of the highlights for me.

And if I play inappropriately in a singaround or session just say - hopefully I will have noticed myself but if I haven't I take little offence.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:55 PM

wow..by implication, I have been clumped with Oxford grads?!

This is truly my lucky day!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:14 PM

Richard - If the gathering is described as a sing-a-long then your "joining in" argument has some merit Otherwise......

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:15 AM

Farouche appears in my dictionaries as 'sullen' - 'wild', and is from the Latin for out-of-doors. I have no idea how this is intended to apply to the topic on hand; I assume it equates to Bob Davenport's 'Art with a big A and art with a small a' somewhere along the line (aka academic double-speak).
"You're not good enough" view. Second there is the "Don't join in unless I tell you" view which for me implies something of the first".
Not only have you put the onus on the performer to ask the audience not to join in, but you have implied that should he/she do so they are suggesting that the audience is somehow inferior - utter balls!!!.
The suggestion as far as I'm concerned is reactionary twaddle which reduces our most beautiful, sensitive, and often very complex songs and ballads to the level of 'Knees Up Mother Brown'.
Our song tradition is, by its very nature a solo one (with obvious exceptions) - here we have it turned into community sing-song.
The Irish, who are, by-and-large are a fairly tolerant race, have a phrase which they use on the very occasional event of an ego-tripper insisting on joining in on everybody's song (is this just a UK thing?) - "One singer, one song" - says it all.
Should Richard wish an audience to join in on everything he does, he is perfectly entitled to ask them to do so, but please don't assume that this is what the rest of us want, be we performer or listener.
I'm afraid that Melissa's chilling suggestion that people be permitted to join in "whether they know the song or not" sums up Richard's nightmare world perfectly for me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:17 AM

farouche - by analogy think of "wild flower"

artless: meanings 2b and 3

I think that singers and players should be wary of telling others to not to join in. It fills me at least with the desire to say "EEwww, get you!" unless there is a good reason.

I think, John, that the default position lies somewhere else. If the event is a paid for seated concert then I can see (even if I am hesitant about accepting) the "Don't join in" argument. It gets steadily more self important as one moves from that environment, unless there is a good and apparent reason.

But of course, manners should dictate "listen" as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:19 AM

Jim C:
"I'm afraid that Melissa's chilling suggestion that people be permitted to join in "whether they know the song or not" sums up Richard's nightmare world perfectly for me."

Chilling?
Downright diabolical, probably...but I have no damn idea what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM

PS
Maybe we should have a screen with the words of all the songs projected on to it and the little ball dancing from word-to-word just like the childrens' Saurday matinee - ee; it takes you back lads and lasses.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:09 AM

Did I tell you about the time I was doing a sensitive accompaniment -playing pentatonic scales in the phyrgian mode on a bird warbler and someone threw their beer at me.....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM

Our song tradition is, by its very nature a solo one (with obvious exceptions) - here we have it turned into community sing-song.

Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

Jim Carroll

There was never any question (certainly not as far as I'm concerned) that any singer who wished to was given one bite of the cherry; as you say, how else would we know whether they could sing or not. The argument is about whether people who wished to sing were consistently given spots before they had conquered the rudiments.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. In an early posting you say -

Is it being a Blue Meany to suggest that performers should be able to hold a tune and remember and make sense of the words BEFORE they take to the floor. (Your emphasis.)

Searching on "before they" brings up half a dozen similar examples so perhaps you will excuse my confusion.

Are you now saying just "one bite of the cherry" or would you give people more time? It only moves the question along one step. To find out if they've improved, we have to put them on again. In our experience, people do improve. Some more slowly than others but nobody carries on apparently blissfully unaware of how bad they are.

"By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards".
Not if you are consistently putting on (or urging others to put on) singers who can't master the basics you're not.

We are not "consistently putting on singers who can't master the basics". We are not "a club which persistently presents singers
who can't sing". We simply don't have the resources. We do not have an adequate supply of singers who can't sing to do so. In our experience, the vast majority of people who want to sing (or play) can.

nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones

Kind of you but you still seem to be blaming our policy for the poor standards you see elsewhere. Dare I suggest that, if we are among the better ones, it is precisely because of our "Yes you can" policy?

As I said before "ding-ding; I'm on the bus"

That's rather the point, Jim. On your own admission you got off the bus ten years ago but still seem to feel that you are qualified to pontificate about the current state of public transport.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:39 AM

But Richard, have you never experienced that spine chilling moment when listening to someone singing a ballad so beautifully/powerfully/poignantly that you hardly dare breathe yourself for spoiling the magic, and bringing everyone back from that 'other world' to our mundane one?

I love the glory of a rousing chorus, or the power of a roomful of musicians all playing in telepathic sympathy, but some songs (or tunes) just can't, or shouldn't be treated this way. I suspect almost everyone here can tell when joining in (with gusto or with careful harmony etc) is appropriate, and when they themselves would prefer to listen. I also suspect that as Mudcat is a very mixed community that some of us will gravitate towards joining in sessions, and some toward ballad workshops, or any of the myriad of venues in between and consequently feel that their take on this issue is best answered by the practice of their own favoured setting.

My only intention in contributing to the discussion was to observe that there are times (at least at the clubs I go to) where all but one or two individuals have the sensiitvity and the desire to enjoy a solo song for just that, and that maybe it could be considered bad manners if a tiny minority of the assembly were oblivious to those occasions and continued to hum/sing/play along. I have been to evenings where the contrasts between a tremendous chorus followed by the beauty of a ballad has left me in tears. But if one person chooses not to join in a chorus that won't spoil the chorus song half as much as one person insisting in joining in with the ballad.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

I was reading through the tread again and Jim said something I had not noticed. Words to the effect of 'I am bad listener'. Excuse me if I got the quote wrong or incorrectly accredited the wrong person. Anyway...

So am I! I cope with it by trying to avoid the situation where I am listening to poor performance of songs. MOST have at least some redeeming featues - either the song is interesting in itself or the performer can, at least, give me something to stay for. May be very selfish, I know, but where the performer offers me nothing to stay for I would rather do something else. It may be bad mannered of me but I have, on occasions, been found unavoiably delayed at the bar;-)

Now, the point of my confession. There was one such occasion when I was unavoidaby delayed and I found myself in the company of 75% of the folk club audience. So I know it was not just me. this particular act had all but emptied the room. Now, fortunately, it was on a singers night where the auience do knpw the score and do know that people are allowed to 'practice in public'. I dread to think what the effect on a non aware audience would have been but I can imagine the image of folk music that they would have taken away.

Remember that people rarely give praise but often complain:-(

I have said before, and will say again, anyone who has not come across the 'serial song strangler' is a very lucky person indeed. I am not saying they should not have the right to sing like anyone else. But they must accept that other people have a right not to listen, should they chooe, and I have a right, as a club organiser, to restrct when they perform at my club.

Cheers

DeG
(Having a break from fixing shelves - something else I should avoid:-) )

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:14 AM

BTW - I would class our singers nights as a bit of a 'workshop' as well, as I think I have mentioned. Everyone seems to get inolved and there is a lot of chat and avice going on. Everyone shoul get the chance to peform and everyone should be allowed to make mistakes. But to repeatedly do it and not take advice on board is bad manners. Bringing us back to the thread:-)

D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

"Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?"
Yes - as a matter of fact - I did say notable exceptions.
Davis,
I think you'll find I said NOT a bad listener.
"Last GUEST was me."
I think we all guest that Bryan
More later
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:34 AM

Just didn't want to get deleted as an anonymous GUEST by an enthusiastic mud elf.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

On joining in - to some extent it depends whether the joining in enhances or destroys the original performance. I was once asked to sing quite a sensitive song by the organiser of a singaround and ANOther person joined in with her (different but otherwise acceptable) tune and put me off completely.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

Yep, my working class seventies schooling was utterly dire jimslass, especially in maths and grammar. In fact all I recall were a bunch of bored spiteful premenstrual mums (aka: teachers) and I've never gone back to the nuts and bolts in order to rectify it.

Be thankfull that you were (presumably) in a generation or area, in which you could gain a decent education, before 'progressive' thinkers took a hatchet to our schooling and started worrying more about 'targets' than children receiving a good basic education! I wish I'd have recieved the education of my grandfather, or even my mother for that matter.

I'm saying all of this while wearing a smile by the way, no offence taken, though if someone said that to my face, I suspect I might just blow a raspberry at 'em...

Now as you appear to be the man in the know of such things, please advise, how exactly should I spell 'tthhhhrrruppp' ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

Well WLD I suppose even being drenched by a glass of beer is a feed back of some description.At least when you leave you know how good you've been.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

Well theres no use getting bitter.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

Apologies Jim - I was just skimming and it wasn't so much what was said as what gave me the idea:-) Fact still remains that I am not a good listener when it comes to poor performances. I am quite tollereant for the first few times but then, if I find I cannot help in anyway, I give up. Maybe too easily!

WLD - I think you need to get bitter, else you may find yourself described as to mild. Or maybe if you absorbe to much you would get stout. Or la(r)ger...

:D(eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

"Did you ever get the chance to discuss this with Bob Copper?"
Yes - as a matter of fact - I did say notable exceptions.

Obviously(?) that wasn't entirely a serious question, so thanks for giving it a serious answer!

I think the sound of the Copper family singing Thousands or More is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. I like singing ballads, but I also like being in the middle of a performance of Thousands or More, Fathom the Bowl, Glorious Ale, Pleasant and Delightful, Jones's Ale and several other songs with big choruses. I do agree with aw - "if one person chooses not to join in a chorus that won't spoil the chorus song half as much as one person insisting in joining in with the ballad". But you seem to be ruling the chorus songs themselves out of the traditional canon, which seems a bit excessive to me.

Anonymous Guest Brian -

We are not "a club which persistently presents singers who can't sing". We simply don't have the resources. We do not have an adequate supply of singers who can't sing to do so.

Extreme pedantry and sound common sense, united in one comment. Sir, I salute you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM

And if you keep it up I might even get your name right. Sorry, Bryan.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

Guest aw - Exactly!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:00 PM

Pip Radish

Extreme pedantry and sound common sense

Aw, come on! I'm not a patch on Richard Bridge.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

Dear Sleepy Rosie, forgive the Arrgghhhh! on your first posting, it was actually, Tom, said with a bit of tongue in cheek, but certainly not meant to upset you Rosie. I DID say, mind you that it wasn't a go at bad spellers (I can't count) nor poor grammarians, this 'myself' business is just a sloppy usage that has crept in VERY recently, and I'm very very sorry to presume, on Mudcat, to air a pet peeve - realise it goes against the grain here (ahem!)

Will promise to be all sweetness and light in future....That's if you'll have me back.

Have I grovelled enough?

But seriously, sorry, Rosie.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:37 PM

Don't be daft, no grovelling, I'm not offended jimslass!!

It's always a little hard to tell someones 'tone of voice' on t'internet, I wasn't griping at you. My grammar and spelling has always been crumby though, and I do attribute that to the fact that my early schooling was a sad shambles! Though I 'spose if I really cared, I could get some books off the shelf...!

I agree with you believe it or not. And in fact one of my own pet hates is the pronunciation of words (especially on the Beeb) becoming increasingly Americanised, for no other reason than we're all watching Desperate Housewives now. Since when did ten years mean something rotten? Dee-kayd?

I'll duck out of this aside now, and allow the thread to return to topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:47 PM

Since when did ten years mean something rotten? Dee-kayd?

Love you forever, Sleepy Rosie. That one has been annoying me for dec-ades.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

It does not say much for the beer if it is being thrown around!! Generally the people I have come across say whether they expect an audience to join in, although, sometimes the singing is that good that to join in, even when invited, would be a travesty.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

I'm afraid I've found much of this thread a combination of misunderstanding, misrepresentation and distortion, in order - apparently, to justify presenting bad singing to the public.
An appeal for basic standards has been met with responses like 'elitism', 'prima donna', 'exclusion', 'auditioning' 'glass ceilings', demanding 'concert standards' and only selecting the 'few who are good enough to sing' - none of which have been suggested by those of us who prefer our songs well enough rehearsed to be enjoyed.
A number of the attitudes on display here have shown, in my opinion, at best a basic misunderstanding of our music and at worst, an open contempt for it.
Richard's 'wild flowers' are, if I have waded through his treacle-field of academic verbiage correctly, a giant step for mankind - backward to the 19th century when our folk singers were regarded as unthinking peasants whose art was as unconsidered as bird-song - and if that were not enough, he would turn our clubs into venues for mixed-voice choirs.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to drop out of this, for a while at least. We're off to Dublin for a couple of days, where I hope we will be be entertained by two plays whose participants will have undergone sufficient periods of rehearsal for us sit back and appreciate the works of two great playwrights. Hopefully the actors will not have to read their lines from a script or stumble through their interpretations, or fail to articulate or project and will send us home entertained and emotionally and aesthetically satisfied.
Would that folk song be granted the same respect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:52 AM

Grand summary Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:53 AM

Jim, I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:38 AM

NOBODY is trying to "justify presenting bad singing to the public".
NOBODY is showing "an open contempt for [our music]".

Jim seems unable to grasp the concept that people who want to sing generally want to sing well and that, as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:10 AM

people who want to sing generally want to sing well

Bryan, that is your experience, not mine or Jims. Would that not be better changed to

"MOST people who want to sing generally want to sing well, but not all are capable of doing so"

As to

as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work.

Are all adults responsible? Can they all be trusted? I would like to think so but in my experience it is not always the case:-(

Rather than suggest that we are incapable of grasping the concept would it not be better just to acknowledge that our experience is not the same as yours?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:22 AM

I must ask, as a newbie myself, for those who have experience of these terrible performances, who are the guilty parties?

Are they generally newbs who in a flush of misapplied enthusiasm, are simply inexperienced and unfamiliar with reasonable standards? And perhaps X Factor stylee, have had doting tone deaf family and friends applaud their cattawalling...? I'm sure that those willing to confess to watching the show, will all have witnessed classic jaw-drop moments of that ilk.

Or are these people experienced regulars who've become complacent and lazy?

As a listener, I'd be happy to hear drunken strumming and clumsily garbled singing at a party or around a campfire. But if I were going out for the evening, I think I'd be a bit fed-up if the general ability of *enthusiasts* were no more competent than a couple of my three chord wonder mates, after a bottle or two of Merrydown!

As a wannabee singer/enthusiast, I'd in no way want to inflict a rubbish noise on someone elses eardrums. Though my neighbours, may disagree of course... ;-) It'd be way too embarassing to stand up in front of a bunch of experienced strangers and make a rotten noise. I find it amazing that there are peeps happy and willing to humiliate themselves that way!

If someone's not on form for whatever reason, they should presumably be able to hear it themselves and at least say "sorry folks, I'm a bit rubbish tonight... nerves, tiredness, a cold" etc.

So who are the guilty parties and why do they do it?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:32 AM

Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards. What a sad world that would be!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:45 AM

Hiya Sleepy Rosie. I am not going to name the 'guilty parties' but in answer to you other questions, they are a mix of all you mention.

The 'newbies' are fine by me. Everyone has to start somewhere. Provided they have made an effort to learn the song, and that is not just memorising words and a tune btw. They will almost always improve.

Experienced regulars who have become complacent and lazy. Hmmm, tough one. There are one or two I have come across but rarer than the next ones. generaly it is a phase and, again, they will get back 'on track'.

The ones that I take exception to most are the ones who, week in and week out, return a less than satisfactory performance. The ones who should know better but insist on telling a long rambling tale of no interest to anyone but their mothers. Those who cannot, or will not, keep the same time signature, or key, through the song. Those who obviously have no idea what the song is about.

Your example of a drunken three chord wonder at a party or campfire is an excellent one indeed. Both you and I are quite happy to listen, even join in, in those circumstances, but at a night where people are paying to see a professional artist I would not let them within 50 feet of the stage - and I suspect that most of them would not want to. But some have the X-factor syndrome that you mention. I suspect that some of these people think they are good because no one has ever told them othewise.

Hope this helps:-)

theleveller - I am sure Jim will answer himself. As he has already said that he will not be around for a few days and cannot defend himself I think it is very poor form to suggest he has said such things when he has already said otherwise.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:40 AM

"theleveller - I am sure Jim will answer himself. As he has already said that he will not be around for a few days and cannot defend himself I think it is very poor form to suggest he has said such things when he has already said otherwise."

Has he - can't see where? Sorry, I didn't realise that I was supposed to wait for his presence before being allowed to express my opinion. Is this thread now closed for the next few days, then?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

1. Yes

2. 12 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

3. You don't

4. No

As I said, I just think it is poor form (or bad manners to keep on topic) to put words in someones mouth when they are not there to dispute it. But it is your prerogative to do so just as it is mine to state an opinion.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: romany man
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

i have refrained from putting a comment on for so long now, and those that know me know i dont suffer in silence for long, sadly it has come to the point that perhaps an outside view is due, from what ive read, this thread is getting to become the usual "oh im a folkie of long standing and i am right" well sorry, folk music is for all people not just a certain clique of people, ive read about manners , the mentally ill going to you hallowed clubs, and the views there of, please people, get real, you aint special, folk music aint the be all and end all, how long before you cant come to our club unless you got a beard or arrun sweater, or can sit motionless and silently for hours whilst some demegod performs,
why is it that folkie think they are so special, sorry none of us are, in the great scheme of things, there are more important things going on than worrying about who says what, plays what, or how they play or sing, you are supposed to be enjoying your hobby not forcing a general missguided rule on others, if things were as special as you all think it is, then hey everyone would be enjoying folk music, but tastes differ, me personally i cant stand some of the dirge ridden singaround perfomances, however some people do like it , fine thats great, but ive been to concerts and major venues where people walk about , sing along, clap hands , dance, smile , oh and of course drink, but hey folk clubs seem to be the total opposite, with "come in sit down dont move dont smile dont do nothing", sorry thats not for me and many many others i know, now thats my personal view, if it is not to your taste , sorry, but as has been said before everyone has a view.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

Don't know if the leveller is being deliberately obtuse here or if he really is just not reading the posts properly, either way, he is in great danger of making himself look a bit of a tit.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:19 PM

It seems to me that the key to this is being sensitive to the context and to what is appropriate behaviour for that particular event and occasion. There is a huge range of types of events and environments in which our music is performed. What is OK in a singaround or session may not be appropriate in a concert. At a concert in a festival tent one might expect people to move around, whereas in a concert-hall it might be reasonable to expect them to be more attentive - or they might be dancing in the aisles. Also, some clubs and singarounds have their own culture of what is and is not acceptable.

Some events offer opportunities for novice singers to learn and develop their skills, or even for those who are clearly never going to improve. At other events, it may be appropriate to overlook them in favour of better performers.

It can be wonderful to be in a singaround or a session and hear fantastic things developing as people spark ideas off each other. But it is also wonderful to be spellbound by a great singer as they deliver a ballad solo.

In some circumstances it might be egotistical, as Richard suggests, to insist that everyone else shuts up while you sing. In other circumstances it will be egotistical to join in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

Well said romanyman,
I quite agree, there does seem to be a great emphasis on who said what ( or even who said what I think they said). So long as you find a folk club where you can enjoy the atmosphere etc and listen to up & coming singers.Let's not get too serious, after all there are many types of music and song, there's room for all.A paid performer should be able to entertain,but there are many levels of expertise and lots of room for improvement at most levels.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

I could not agree more Howard and Aeola. Thanks for that.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:31 PM

>>Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards. What a sad world that would be!

I'm with Silas. That's a really silly post.

There has been no hint of banning anywhere. Re-read the bits somewhere up the thread about amateur dramatics.

Jim has never defined his benchmark of acceptability - perhaps he could point one day to two borderline performances on youtube or somewhere and at which point we might go - goodness me Jim you're right - or goodness me Jim you set the level too high.

I don't think he is setting it as high as you think.

A friend of mine leant me a tape of the Critics Group singing and it's good competent stuff. Ewan MacColl I think is an excellent singer when he doesn't sing boring anti Margaret Thatcher songs (they were probably of their time as Antiquities but sure are pretty naff as a listening experience now). But it wasn't fantastically wonderful - there is a young man who comes and sings to us sometimes when he's in the area who sings as well as any of the singers on that tape to my ears singing many of the same songs.

I'm not sure if my view has shifted or not over the course of this thread. I'm more aware of some things and probably more of a tart than I was. People should listen and follow the singer or player not do their own version. Spot on. Second week running people wanted to sing their version of a song rather than fit in with the singer. Last week I had fun doing a rewind rap version of "If wishes were fishes" to cater for the early ones and the late ones who were happily singing away in a different time and this week I couldn't be bothered to keep singing a song which noone wanted to listen to (they were happy singing their own version)

People should have better manners. And should listen to each other.

And in my defence I only moved my friend Mike up a tone because he was singing the song too low and he didn't mind and everyone thought the key change was pretty seamless and next time he ought really to do it in Bb rather than G which he has written down on his sheet (if he had one). :) Sometimes we do it to help rather than for our egos

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:02 AM

"That's a really silly post."

No it isn't; just because you can't understand or don't agree with an opinion, don't belittle it; explain why you think it's silly. It's harking back to the 'folk police' arguments we've had in the past, often from people who have been part of the Critics Group thing that I found then(and still find) goes against what I believe folk music to be about. I've made my opinions on that very clear in previous threads.

I apologise if I missed previous comments - I don't spend my days reading through hundreds of posts, I simply express my opinions on comments as I see them. I think it's very bad form (or bad manners) to try to dominate a thread like David el Gnomo and criticise people for having the temerity to disagree with them. What was I saying about the folk police.......?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:06 AM

don't belittle it; explain why you think it's silly

I don't think it's silly, I think it's dishonest and provocative. You trailed the 'professional standards' hook earlier on -

Jim, I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

- but nobody bit. If Jim had agreed with you then you would have had a case for saying that he'd said professional performances were more reliable, which might just about make it possible to extrapolate to the idea that amateur performances should be shut down. Just about.

If he'd agreed with you. He didn't. In fact, he specifically denied that he was calling for professionalism:

An appeal for basic standards has been met with responses like 'elitism', 'prima donna', 'exclusion', 'auditioning' 'glass ceilings', demanding 'concert standards' and only selecting the 'few who are good enough to sing' - none of which have been suggested by those of us who prefer our songs well enough rehearsed to be enjoyed.

I'm not saying you haven't got disagreements with Jim - I'm sure you have. I look forward to finding out what they are.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:23 AM

I don't spend my days reading through hundreds of posts

Jim's mention that he was going away was 8 posts before yours.

criticise people for having the temerity to disagree with them

You did not disagree with anyone in the post we are refering to. Simply made some claims that were untrue against someone who is not around to defend themselves.

I think it's very bad form (or bad manners) to try to dominate a thread

Fair enough. I personaly believe that if you feel strongly enough about a point you should press it but if you disagree then you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM

"he is in great danger of making himself look a bit of a tit."

"That's a really silly post."

"I don't think it's silly, I think it's dishonest and provocative."

"Simply made some claims that were untrue against someone who is not around to defend"

Reminds me of a phrase from my rugby-playing days: "Sod the ball, let's get on with the game".

Think I'll wait until Jim returns then, as in previous threads, we might get some intelligent debate on the issues instead of feigned indignation from people making spurious accusations about my motives and actions.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:15 AM

Good plan, theleveller. If you would have waited for Jim in the first place he could have replied to your 'intelligent debate' himself and none of this would have happened. While we are waiting though can you point us to any 'feigned indignation'. Or how about 'spurious accusations', apart from yours of course.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:42 AM

Seems a bit spiky DeG.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:45 AM

Aye - probably, Richard. Apologies if I have gone over the top - I didn't think I had but I know I am probably a bit less than diplomatic at times;-)

Cheers

DeG

(Which bit ws spiky btw?)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Water off a duck's back, Richard - no more scars that I have already (and I was never very pretty)!

One thing I'd just like to get straight, though: I have the greatest respect for Jim Carroll, especially for his knowledge and love of folk music and for many of his political views. Where we appear to disagree is on the application of standards to amateur performances. We can, and have in the past, had robust and heated debates on this, which, I believe, have been conducted without personal animosity or abuse (and very little physical violence). My style of argument may be confrontational (but that's my personality) but I deeply resent being called dishonest, as my opinions on this subject have not changed all the time I have been a mudcat member. 'Provocative' I accept – that's what robust argument is about – but not 'dishonest'.

For those of you who can't handle my approach, I just say "tough s**t," you're entitled to your opinion, as am I, but, unless you're the moderator, do not try dictate how and where I can express it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:46 AM

Your second comment reads as if Jim had endorsed your comment about professionalism. You knew he hadn't, the comment you were responding to didn't suggest he would do, and you knew he wasn't around to contradict you. That's why I called it dishonest.

As for people not being able to handle your approach, it's more that your approach tends to disqualify your argument. More precisely, it tends to *obscure* your argument. I know that what you disagree with Jim Carroll about isn't the compulsory professionalisation of folk music, because I know he doesn't advocate that. So why pretend it is?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:25 AM

What a complete load of bollocks! Just stop making things up will you and get a grip on reality.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

That was spiky too!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:38 AM

Calm down now lads, calm down.

This thread should have finished 10 pages ago, you are just going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round and round and and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round an and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round and round and roundd round and round round

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

I `ad that leveller in my cab and `e looked well distaught and a little bit "Tom and Dick".
I said, " Whats up, the leveller? You look quite pale and wan"
(Being in the old folk music I knew `ed cotton to that)
`e said, " Jim, take me in a straight line anywhwere. I just read that Silas bit on that Mucat and it`s made me blooming dizzy!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: romany man
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

this thread will go on for ever with the im right so shut up brigade, or you are wrong so shut up brigade, why not every one shut up, agree to disagree and all go home.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:05 AM

It's always the same - just when you're starting to enjoy yourself, someone says it time to go home!

TAXI!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM

Thank gawd f'that.

I thought for a moment that I would have to bring Nazis into the discussion.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:13 AM

well personally I like talking to other folksingers even if I profoundly disagree with them. We have more in common with each other than with anyone else, romany man.

we've all been the same sort of places - we may have thought different thoughts; sung different songs; may not have always respected different kinds of music - but at least we we all had pretty much the same basis for our ideas, and we all enjoyed hearing what the other guy had to say - even if we didn't agree with him. It was fun disagreeing with someone who cares for the same artform that you - and that's pretty much the basis of mudcat.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:58 AM

What a strange man. I wonder what all that was about.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:09 PM

"That was spiky too! "

It's only theleveller's little claws, he's a pussycat really! Not that I've ever tickled his belly you understand........

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

I always find it refreshing to be in agreement with Wee Little Drummer (about somthing other than how good John Kelly is)!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:17 PM

Initial comment by theleveller which prompted this sideline -

Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards.

Later on, by same leveller -

but I deeply resent being called dishonest

Maybe, just maybe, theleveller if the initial comment was true then you may not have been called dishonest? But it was not and if you would care to check it out I think you will find that no-one has ever suggested banning anything.

As to whether this thread should end - I think there may be some interest still being generated. No one is forcing anyone to read it or contribute:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:50 PM

What are you talking about DeG? Why is it dishonest to say that if you took Jim's argument to it's logical conclusion it would mean that all amateur productions should be banned? That's my opinion. If you don't like it that's your problem. What is totally dishonest is people like you trying to make out that I have said something I haven't. You may not agree with my opions but to deliberately pervert them is grotesque. If you can't conduct an argument without distorting the other person's you are beneath contempt.

"It's only theleveller's little claws, he's a pussycat really!"

Careful, Paul. You don't know what I'm capable of. When I come to KFFC BBB I may just throw folk club manners to the wind and shout 'Bottoms' when you're singing Whiskey in the Jar.

Musha ringa ma durum da (Bottoms)
Whak fol da dady oh.....

That'll show you!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:17 PM

Why is it dishonest to say that if you took Jim's argument to it's logical conclusion it would mean that all amateur productions should be banned?

Because Jim never said anything which suggested that he had anything against amateur performances. He said he was going to see a couple of plays and hoped that the actors would have rehearsed and would know all their lines (with the implication that they probably would); he then said, "Would that folk song be granted the same respect."

And, er, that's it. Nothing about amateurs not rehearsing - Jim didn't even say that the plays he was going to see were professional productions. Somebody a few comments later did make a connection between actors taking the trouble to rehearse and actors getting paid -

I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

- but that was, er, you.

I'll repeat my earlier question: what is it you disagree with Jim Carroll about? It's obviously not the imposition of professional standards on folk music, because he's against that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

PS If you can't conduct an argument without distorting the other person's you are beneath contempt.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I do think it's a bit... well...

...on second thoughts, never mind.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

"That's a really silly post."

No it isn't; just because you can't understand or don't agree with an opinion, don't belittle it; explain why you think it's silly.

It's a really sill post because it ignores what people are saying. It's like playing music with people and not listening to what they are playing. It's very relevant to the thread if you think about it.

If you make a statement which quotes others then your statement links to that comment - to say that you have commented about something without reading the context is odd to me. Your choice.

>>It's harking back to the 'folk police' arguments we've had in the past, often from people who have been part of the Critics Group thing that I found then(and still find) goes against what I believe folk music to be about. I've made my opinions on that very clear in previous threads.

I don't understand that bit. Be both mutually know Paul - you more than me - I wouldn't have thought I'm way up in the folk police league........?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

"I don't understand that bit. Be both mutually know Paul - you more than me - I wouldn't have thought I'm way up in the folk police league........?"

Definitely not!

It's so easy to fall out in print though. This argument (discussion?) would be taking place with smiles all round if it was face to face. You might even tickle each others bellies!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:48 PM

Why is it dishonest to say that if you took Jim's argument to it's logical conclusion

It isn't at all, theleveller. But that is NOT what you said. You actualy said, and read it if you don't believe me,

Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions

If you are now saying you actualy meant to include the 'logical conclusion' bit but somehow forgot, I am quite happy with that. We all make mistakes.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:19 PM

"It isn't at all, theleveller. But that is NOT what you said."

Yes, that's exactly what I meant, as you well know. It was you who chose to interpret it differently, despite my admitting that I had not read the previous posts that Jim had made.

I joined the discussion quite a long way down the line and, as I've said, did not have the time to read all the previous posts. Thst happens all the time on a long thread.

You can choose to take whatever interpretation you like - your refusal to accept my explanation is churlish and totally bad-mannered. Anyone who knows me or has read any of my previous posts will know that I would never stoop so low as to put words into other people's mouths. It's not my way. It never has been and it never will be. I value my integrity far more than that - that's why I am upset about being called dishonest. Persoanl abuse does not usually upset me but this is beyond the pale.

Please do me the courtesy of accepting that, if I sinned, it was the sin of ommission.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:27 PM

I will indeed do you that coutesy in all good faith, theleveller. I have not refused to accept your explanation at all. If you would care to look at my last post it was me that suggested that you ommited the key phrase. You did however put words in someones mouth, albeit by 'sin of ommision'.

I do not know at all, let alone know well, what you meant and I can only go off what you said. Excuse me if the ESP module of my browser is malfunctioning. At the moment I am unable to read peoples minds. I am more than happy however to accept that you made a mistake but am a little puzzled as to why I appear to be the cause of that mistake and the recipient of such vitriol.

I will leave it up to Jim, as I said initialy, to answer your initial allegation and I will quiet happily let it go as a 'sin of ommission' on your part. Bearing in mind what I have said on this thread about people repeating the same mistakes over and over again I do hope that you have learned by yours:-)

All the best.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:34 PM

Richard - I am trusting you to be my concience in this btw - Let me know again if I have stepped out of line. Honest, I need to know!

And going to another thread I would like to join you in performing - I am not that good either so we may make a good pair between us:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:53 PM

Leveller: the fact is, Jim never said anything which suggested that he had a problem with amateur performances.

If you're prepared to admit that you misread his comment, I'm prepared to withdraw the accusation of dishonesty.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM

It's a very ethereal conversation as most things are on the web. Standards are a trangeky intangible thing without examples.

So let me give you some concrete examples. For a music site it has very little music on it and lots of words! There is a thread that Max started recently and M Ted or someone, I think, suggested that it would be nice to have sidebars where one could illustrate things musically that might help the words.

I play in singarounds and see good and bad stuff. I'm lucky to have met people who are good and play with me and I slide along on their coattails and pick up a few quid here and there.

So if I'm going to pay for a gig then I think it should be better than people can get for free. So here are two examples from playing recently in Leeds - Mark Kane is a fine fiddler (and singer and guitarist etc) who makes my playing and singing sound better.

I reckon that if I'm going to pay then it has to be better than this because you can go to a pub and get this for free.

So there's my benchmark between singaround and paid gig. Yours may be very different but at least you know where mine sits.

Tune
Song

And yes we should have practiced before we played.

It's a benchmark.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM

trangeky...

Never eat treacle when you're typing. I thought I typed 'strangely'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:18 AM

Nick,but you dont get music for free in a pub,the price of the drinks are increased ,to pay for the performer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:57 AM

Can anyone else hear the stomping of jackboots?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:24 AM

No, I can't Silas. Are you too near an army camp or something? :-)

Dick - the price of drinks is not always increased to pay for the performer. The performers don't always get paid! I think that is what Nick is on about. I know, for instance, he was at our festival where through the day we had only one paid performer in the singaround - and the folk club paid him! The singaround went on all day in the bar and even spread to the back room at one point. The landlord did not increase the price of drinks. Mind you - he could have paid something from the extra profits he made. It's not often he sells a weeks worth of beer in a day!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:24 AM

I'm not clear what you are suggesting Nick, as to standards. Neither of the bits you linked to are within my main preferences, but both are clearly of a standard that would have "stopped the show" by reason of (relative) excellence at pretty well any singaround I have been to - barring only the better massed brawls in the beer tents at paid for festivals where you can suddenly find that the storm playing from behind you is Last Nights's Fun (you get my drift). Likewise better than most of the dross at the few open mics I have been to. For the purposes of this post I'm not going to say "but it wasn't folk" - but this is not to debar me from raising that hare on any other aoccasion.

Equally both would (barring a spot of trouble with feedback on the song) have been plenty good enough to be beyond substantial criticism for a paid support slot at club night or I think concert.

As a headlining act - well at the start of the song the fiddler was a fraction off the pitch for a second or so at the beginning of the song, and I was a little uneasy about the female vocal on that song too in places, and the whole thing was not Nic Jones (but then it wasn't his style). The Irish tune seemed bang on to me all the way through, but Irish is not my bag so maybe others can hear subtelties there that I can't. Maybe I would not have put them on the main stage at Ely (if I ran Ely, which I don't), but I've heard worse on the second stage there.

All quite good enough to make me start wondering whether my thoughts of a recording project are me getting way above my station.

But how does it relate to the people who Jim and the Captain would say should not sing or play?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

>>But how does it relate to the people who Jim and the Captain would say should not sing or play?

One of the difficulties that I have - and so others also may have - is to know what people mean. If your local singaround happened to regularly have (say) Martin Carthy, Stefan Grossman, John Etheridge, Martin Simpson and John Renbourn playing they would probably have a very different set of expectations of a general standard than many other places. The reason I put an example up is that it is representative of a standard that I am used to hearing around where I live in places I go to. It happened to be at a gig in a pub but I'd do the same sort of stuff on a Wednesday down the pub. The fiddle playing is higher than most but there are some decent fiddlers I bump into around the area.

I'm not sure where other people are putting their benchmark for people who should or should not play. If it was set as high as the fiddle playing then that is one thing - if it's set at the level I sing at and play guitar that's another. The thing is that I don't know what people are saying is an acceptable standard - I think the two things I put up are acceptable but others may disagree.

I play and sing at a number of pubs/sessions/singarounds where there are many better singers than me; I come across a lot of people in pubs and singarounds and sessions who are of a similar or higher standard to me on a guitar. I'd just be interested to know what people mean by 'an acceptable standard' - we might all be assuming that others are talking about a lower standard than we think.

Now it's possible that someone may come and listen to what I put up and say "well I wouldn't accept that in my club/singaround or whatever" and we'd know where they set the standard where they are. It's just to try and make it something tangible.

I could as easily put up some unaccompanied singing or different things to get an idea of what sort of common norm we are talking about.

I went to a thing this week and there was a truly terrible singer. He's funny to hear once (I'm unsure whether unintentionally or becuase he likes being the centre of attention - and no it wasn't WAV) but good grief I'd be off to the bar (probably at a different pub) if I had to put up with him again.

As Dave said I was at Swinton recently and I've pm'd him about someone who was there who had a negative reaction from the others in the pub but luckily it wasn't a regular! But the standard there was decent generally.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:56 AM

WE ACCEPT YOU NICK!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:57 AM

Thanks, Nick. The one you mention is another perfect example of the type of act I am trying to describe. Hopefuly next year the improvement will be noticeable but if not I think some of our regulars, and a few of the non-folky pub goers may get a bit disgruntled! Nothing at all wrong with 'having a go' provided that whoever it is knows when to stop:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

I think the situation is this.

No one has to have a perfect voice or have to be able to play well.

Anyone can 'have a go' as it were. However, if a song is worth singing, why not do it justice and actually learn it, and learn it as well as you can before 'going public'?

Some people will have to accept that they just can't sing or play, its tough, but it is a fact. Some people will make significant improvements to their performances with practice and experience,some people will not bother to practice.

If someone is incapable, sadly, of playing or singing, then they should not inflict their shortcomings on the rest of us, similarly, if someone is too lazy to practice, then they should also be discoraged from performing.

Thats it really.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:30 AM

Hmm, nearly 800 posts on, and I think you've nailed it. Not that it'll be the end of the thread; I fear this one will run and run until it disappears up its own fundament.
Ah, why don't we ask WalkaboutsVerse what he thinks? ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

Very good points, Silas (where did the jackboots fit in before btw?)

I think I may go one step further and say that even the people who are incapable of playing or singing should be allowed to vent their artistic tendancies, if they have them. Just occasionaly though - and in the right circumstances.

If they abuse that offer often though you may find me in the bar:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

Generally I get more irritated by bland, sweetly-pretty renditions of familiar material than I do by outright incompetence; incompetent performances are often funny (cruel, I know) and they don't usually go on very long. As Bryan said, there aren't that many really incompetent singers who want to sing.

What I do find a bit trying is when a fairly high level of incompetence (say, for example, singing off-pitch, forgetting the tune, playing the wrong chords...) is combined with a blissful conviction of outstanding talent and a puppyish eagerness to share it with the room as often as possible. Someone like that can be a menace in a "jump-in-when-you're-ready" session - they're *always* ready. I think if I ever ran into someone like that, I'd be very tempted to retire to the back room and sing some songs in there with all the other refugees from the main room. Or something along those lines.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:05 AM

"(where did the jackboots fit in before btw?)"


Its a Godwinism, don't really know if it applies to Mudcat, its more a usenet thing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:23 AM

A man I would not ban

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:37 AM

God that was painful!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM

Actually I think I may have found something I might request be taken elsewhere.

An interesting but flawed experiment...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

Sorry Richard, we are on our way to diable your flash player on your PC. You know it makwes sense.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:59 AM

I `ad that Walkabouts Verse in my cab the other day. `e sat in there, quite nonchallant, with `is little book engrossed in something or the other, no doubt dreaming up some poem or whatever.
I said, "`ere Walkabouts, I aint seen you on that Mudcat recently, `specially that one about bad manners, although its gorn adrift and its more like bad attitudes, but I reckon its right up your street."
`e said, " Nah, Jim. If you notice its now up in the eight `undreds. I`ll put my oar in just after nine `undred and ninety nine and collect the Jackpot!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

Didn't you love the way the unaccompanied singer had words on the palm of his hand?

Come on, he was not that bad if you gave him a chance to get going, and his pitch was fairly consistent in places.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:16 PM

If you are not too brilliant at singing, and with the best will in the world, he wasn't, it is probably better to stick to slightly shorter songs.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM

I thought he was OK, Richard. Bit ambitious in his choice of material maybe but at least he is practicing:-) I would take some convincing to give him two songs of that length during at the Royal Albet Hall though.

He would be welcome at one singers nights. Of course the big advantage of YouTube is that one can fast forward or stop part way. Not that I did of course...

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:33 PM

He's pitched the tune so it goes off the *bottom* of his range, which is an unusual error to make - having a couple of words of every verse in a toneless gravelly mumble is a bit trying. Apart from that I don't think his pitching is that bad - I've heard much worse.

When he started consulting his hand I was wondering how small his writing could possibly be, but it only seemed to be the "To Norrowa!" verse that he had trouble remembering.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bru
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM

Actually, Silas, I've found that - being one of the less than brilliant singers - it's shorter notes I need to stick to.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

You peeps are err *joking* about the singer having words on the palm of his hand! It's just a bit of theatre.

I must say, I like this singers collection of 'Child Ballad' postings. In fact I think they're a very handy resource for interested but uneducated parties such as myself.

The discussion posted by 'Medicine Socks' as a video response to this You-Tubey, is a pretty interesting ramble and worth a watch.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

>>If someone is incapable, sadly, of playing or singing, then they should not inflict their shortcomings on the rest of us<<

Thats me and like you say, I don't inflict it on others. There are enough out there already.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

I said I would not exclude the unaccompanied singer (and Sir Patrick Spens does cover quite a range and it is a difficult song to deliver).

What about the electric experimentalist in the other link I posted? I cracked and confessed I would include him out!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM

Very, errrrmmm, interesting. We would let him on. Once. Provided he kept his guitar turned down to a reasonable level. Or maybe turned it up enough so we couldn't hear... No, that's cruel.

You set me on a quest though and I found this version of the same song. The lady has a lovely voice, even if the accent is not quite what we are used to, but I am not at all sure about that square fiddle! She could come along but maybe leave her friend at home:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

As far as I'm concerned he was off the list as soon as he plugged in. I'm a bit of an acoustic bigot - I'm a singer, and I reckon any decent singer can hit the back wall of a fair-sized room with no amplification at all. (The Patrick Spens geezer certainly could.)

I wouldn't mind listening to that guy's stuff, but he's not bringing that amp int' club.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

sorry,
Just got back and have to go out again - in the meantime
Leveller
Would you mind explaining what you believe my "exacting standards" are?
I could have sworn that all I was asking for was that a singer should be able to hold a tune and remember the words - exacting - have we really slipped that far behind???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:27 PM

Musically, I'm always interested in the new (or indeed old), the eclectic and the innovative, but to my ears the 'experimentalist' as you describe him, simply didn't sound interesting enough to capture my imagination or my ears. Worth a listen, but not something that I'd be intrigued enough about to want to experience more of. I think if someone is trying to do something experimental, they really need to be both very good, creatively plugged in to the mains (with or without electrickey) and distinctive in order to engage the listener.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Bill Hudson
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

Good subject...
There are just a few, just a few. When a performers playing do not talk      or try to go out the room, turn your phone off, and respect others.
That being said after about 30 years plying in bars,well anything is possible and if it sounds strange it probably is true.
One gig I remember when at a small club and everyone was having a good night. It was then two airborne guys walked in the door with a girl. After a very short time they started to get very loud. In the middle of a song I stopped dead and said it a very soft quite voice, "Behave your self". The airborne guys looked like a dear in the headlights and cooled down. After while they would get loud and I repeated the same thing above. So I guess you could say they were apart of the act that night.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM

Different people have different ways, Bill. My mate John had ever such a soft voice and when asked, repeatedly, to sing something Irish by drunken man at the bar. He walked over and, ever so gently, whispered...

"F*** off or I will kick the s*** out of you.'

In an off-stage aside type manner.

The pub was filled with a rugby team and supporters who, entrhalled by Johns songs, proceded to give a huge cheer and carry said drunken man out at shoulder height:-D

Eeeeeeh. the kids nowaays are nowt but hooligans...

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:34 PM

Yes I do understand,I am glad I don't remember all the dives over the years...... some funny stories......now.
I had Jack Hardy come down to Va. and that was a long night because this one guy came and in keep saying to Jack,"Can I play your guitar?" He was big and drunk> I had to deal with that guy all night long. The bar did not have a bouncer. I do remember Jack's face when that guy asked him the 1st time.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

>>An interesting but flawed experiment...

As in terrible food beautifully cooked or beautiful food terribly cooked?

>>A man I would not ban

Nor would I but I got a bit bored. I thought the guitarist was good - if sparse

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:24 AM

This thread is turning very weird.

We have moved from the initial poster who was outraged because an inncomer found the residents less than fascinating, and had the temerity to nibble nuts and wonder what he had to do for a booking; to vivisectionists onstage, ballad singers who seem to know a ballad but seem to think delivering it in a dull prosaic manner is forgivable - (not when its Sir Patrick Spens and needs a bit of nerve and sinew behind it!). No I wouldn't chuck him out Richard, but I shouldn't bet on having many of your audience next week if you gave him a three spot.

- and then we have Nick, who is perhaps the most interesting of the lot. Nick deserves a whole thread to himself

His approach is just so on the money as to what is happening in folkmusic these days.

If you ever doubted that folkmusic for the last for two hundred years (and probably before then) has been a smorgasboard rather than a set menu - with artists and song creators dipping in and taking the stories and themes and techniques THEY wanted - consider Nick. Or if that's too much of a jump - think of Steve Tilston who plays a sort of bastard Piedmont picking style straight from the Carolinas and sings Streams of Lovely Nancy - Jim would know where from, the Hammonds or the Copper family or whatever

Nick, the first tune is too short - presumably from a seession that went on much longer. But his second song is all about his fascination with jazz and its role call of anti heroes, dead legends, and the like - and his accompaniments are what....wannabe jazz, shall we say.

Earlier this year I was at Fylde festival and in one of the bar sessions I met the young guitar player from Tim Van Eyken's band. After a while I said to him - the progressions you are playing they are what a jazz player would play. And indeed they were the kind of thing you would normally associate with backing a player like ben Webster, or Stan getz - and here was this young turk of the folk scene blowing everyone away with accompaniments to jigs, reels, hornpipes etc with these really jazzy chords. this guy could really swing!

When my generation of folk guitarplayers (McTell, Carthy, Tilston etc) kicked off, our heroes were guys were people like Big Bill Broonzy and Davy Graham. people who used open strings. the whole open tuning thing is to preserve open strings, the way they ring, the sound envelope, the way the notes decay and die.

Jazz playing is different. Its all about blocking the strings off, power triads, and the way the chord sustains. Its not really music for acoustic guitar.

I think with Nick we are seeing the start of the post folk club era. Its to do with sessions, open mikes, with playing for ceildh bands. Its the end of our era.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:34 AM

wld.
The Streams of Lovely Nancy ,is in The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs.
Jazz sounds very good on an acoustic guitar[imo],there is no earthly reason why Jazz cant be played in open tunings,using open strings.a lead jazz guitarist can still play all his solos in open tuning,a rhythym Jazz guitarist,can play Jazz in DADGAD or any other open tuning,he may be limited keywise,and some progressions may be more difficult, depends on the tuning,after all blues guitarists use open tunings,and there is a strong association between blues and Jazz.
Willie Johnson[shetland guitarist]played Jazz chords behind shetland traditional music using an acoustic guitar,way back in the 1950s.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:30 AM

Yes Django was an acoustic guitarist really. I never really warmed to the electric stuff he did. And blues of course.

What we rae talking about is something quite new though. Young folk music players eschewing the celtic DADGAD /bluegrass boomy bass string sound for the kind of jazz chord progressions that you hear in George Gershwin.

Its a new generation looking at the music very differently from how we did.

Thinking further. I can see I have been unfair to the Patrick Spens singer. However I think he could have done with some of the black arts of showbiz to present his song.

Its a ghost story. A story for winter evenings. Perhaps if he had been sitting somewhere dark and atmospheric with a blazing fire in the background. Perhaps if he had sang it like he was confiding a tale which fascinated him and his family. It helps in my view.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

I think with Nick we are seeing the start of the post folk club era.

It all depends what you mean by 'folk club', doesn't it? I've got two in walking distance. One (the Beech singaround) is attended by 20-30 people, mostly 50+, who take turns to sing (mostly) traditional songs, mostly unaccompanied, & join in on choruses. It's a welcoming group, but the general standard of singing and knowledge is high.

The other (Chorlton FC) pulls in 50-60 people, a lot of whom are under 30, and puts on anything up to 20 acts in an average evening (one song each); there's a rough three-way split between traditional material, new songs and covers; standards of performance cover a very wide range, and there's quite a lot of referring to songsheets and "haven't tried this one in public before".

So people who think 'folk' means anyone can get up and have a bash have got somewhere to go (I go there myself sometimes - it's a good night out). And people who think it means Lord Bateman and Jones's Ale and a bit of Cyril Tawney or Keith Marsden have got somewhere to go (I go *there* every time, unless I'm ill or something). So as far as my local area's concerned, the folk club scene seems to be alive and well. (Pete Ryder, who wrote the Nat Shapiro song, did a set at Chorlton a while back, incidentally; went down a storm. He does a terrific Miss Otis Regrets.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM

I think you may enjoy this YouTube clip of Pete Ryder, WLD - A Salford lad now resident in Bolton and regular at our club. This one is a Cole Porter number but he is a brilliant songwriter too.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:10 AM

Oh - and forgot to add, never an open tuning or capo in sight with Pete. When I went to see Martin Carthy a couple of years back I gave him one of our festival leaflets. He saw Pete's name and said he remembered Pete from many years back, commenting what a good guitarist he was:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

Great minds eh?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM

"Would you mind explaining what you believe my "exacting standards" are?"


Jim, it’s a fair question and I don’t think that there’s actually a short answer. As someone who has devoted a huge amount of time and effort to folk music, you want it to be performed to the highest possible standard. Nothing wrong with that but I think, for me, the key word is ‘possible’.

If one (I hesitate to say ‘you’ as it could well get misconstrued) accepts, as I do, that the policy adopted in schools of total inclusivity is the correct one, then, surely, this should also apply to other areas in life, of which music is one. Because folk music is, in essence, a popular performance medium, it applies here especially. I think the phrase â€쳌from each according to his(/her) abilityâ€쳌 is one that I would use.

I believe that there has to be a big distinction here between professional (by which I mean anyone who accepts money for performing) and amateur. The professional is undertaking a contract and has an obligation to provide the service to a standard that is acceptable to those who are paying.

Amateurs, on the other hand are doing it for fun (isn’t fun what it’s all about?) so the application of standards of any sort must be done with great care. So, in short, I would say ‘no’ even the most basic standards of remembering the words and singing in tune cannot be applied universally.

Let me give you just one example of what I mean that I hope will illustrate my point. I go to a folk club which is there mainly for the benefit of people (friends) who like to hear each other perform. We don’t have a charge or book guests. The standard varies from excellent to that which, shall I say, probably falls below what some of the posters here would find acceptable. Nonetheless, everyone gets the same encouragement and applause and, on average, we have 15 to 20 performers every month. The oldest member is a chap called Colin. Colin is 80 and he comes almost every month. To be honest, he can’t sing in tune now, has lost his sense of rhythm and usually forgets his words even when they are written down in front of him. Nevertheless, his enthusiasm is boundless, he has a wonderful sense of humour and we love him â€" the club just wouldn’t be the same without him. Are we to apply a performance standard to Colin? To stop him performing would not only break his heart but would, I think almost all of us would agree, be a sad loss to the club. I think Colin also performs a valuable function: new people who join us and may be a little uncertain of their ability, are encouraged when they see Colin getting a great reception. Our club has been running for years and, usually, there are so many singers we have to restrict it to two songs per person.

Not only is our club a great place to keep traditional material alive, it’s also a great place to hear some new and original material that will probably never reach a wider audience â€" often songs that come directly from the local area. Sure, some performers who aspire to a higher standard have come to the club and never returned and I’ve heard some comments that they don’t think the standard is high enough for them. That’s fine, but I think it’s sad that they feel that way.

I hope I’ve answered your question. Sorry if it’s been rather longwinded but I think it warranted a full explanation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

All this is very strange; the battlefield appeared to be littered with dead windmills carefully erected by those who would persuade us (apparently) that neither skill nor practice is needed to sing folk-songs (or am I guilty of erecting a windmill of my own? – it's a little hard to tell who is saying what among so many people not really saying anything).
I didn't get a reply from the leveller regarding my exacting standards - that's ok; I didn't really expect one.
Perhaps we might do better with this one:

Leveller:
"Jim, I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies."
Are you suggesting that the only things that are worth making an effort for are those for which you are paid?
Or how about:
"Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards. What a sad world that would be!"
How do you work that extraordinary piece of logic out – sorry, you can't really respond to that until you define what my 'exacting standards' are – so maybe we should give that one a bit more time.
For the record; virtually all the activities mentioned require a fair amount of developed skill and preparation – amateur or not – I know – I've attempted to tread the boards myself on several occasion, without much success .   
"It's harking back to the 'folk police' arguments we've had in the past,"
Sorry, don't quite follow this – we're not reverting to back-of-the-bike-sheds name calling are we?
"Where we appear to disagree is on the application of standards to amateur performances."
Are you suggesting that because an activity is 'amateur', no skill or effort is required.

Richard
"But how does it relate to the people who Jim and the Captain would say should not sing or play?"
Who has suggested that anybody "should not sing or play"? I haven't, nor has anybody else as far as I can see. We have merely suggested that before they appear in public they should have done the work necessary to become singers.
"A man I would not ban"
As you are the only one to mention banning anybody – who WOULD you ban?

Snail;
".......as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work."
Fine – and when they have put in that work and mastered the basics, then they should be recognised as singers and given places as a performers.

Sleepy Rosie
So who are the guilty parties and why do they do it?
Good question – as far as I'm concerned the club organisers should be responsible for what goes on in their clubs and be shape their policies accordingly so the music stands more of a chnace of surviving than it has been given so far.
Why do they behave the way they do?
The logic of their argument appears to be based on an extremely patronising belief that newcomers asked to put in the groundwork in order to become singers are quite likely to hoist up their skirts and head for the hills – can't think of another reason; can you?

Nick
"Jim has never defined his benchmark of acceptability"
Well; I have; but in case you missed it tenth time round, here it is again:
A singer should be able to sing – hold a tune, memorise the words, and understand the song enough to communicate that understanding to the listener.
"borderline examples"
Not really into micro-measuring singing abilities – even if I saw the necessity of doing so.
I suggest that anybody involved in singing who can't tell where a would-be singer is consistently singing out of tune or making a hames of the text really should have gone to Specsaver.
Yours in anticipation,
Jim Carroll
PS
Leveller:
Sorry; have just seen your posting - have not got time or energy to read fully and respond - (music calls in town) - but will do son when I get back.
I have to say that your description of a folk club (at a somewhat superficial glance) sounds less like the clubs I know and more like a Freemasons Lodge where the public does not venture, but as I said, a superficial glance.
We all 'want' it to be performed at the highest possible standard - surely; but that is not what is under discusssion; rather, the question here is what is the 'lowest' standard we are prepared to accept from performers at the clubs.
Our music is held to ridicule by those outside our immediate circles (in the UK, that is - not in Ireland any more) - I believe that this is to a great extent due to the fact that it is not held in enough exteem by many of those participating - if we don't take our music seriously, how can we expect anybody else to?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Why don't we do what they do in Golf !?

Every time someone performs at a folk club they are assessed for being able to remember the words without a prompt sheet, for being able to sing in tune, for being able to play without a capo, whether they write their own songs etc and then mark their card and issue them with a 'handicap' - a numerical value that is a universal measure of their ability

The folk clubs can then say - we are a ten and below club or we have a minimum standard of eighteen. They can use this in their advertising so that you know what you are going to get before you go and if your handicap is 25 you don't take your guitar with you if you are going to a club that is 20 or less !?

The existing method of going along to a folk club, deciding whether or not you like it and either going back or not seems very hit or miss in comparison

oh b*gger - I've just refreshed this thread

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:54 PM

Leveller: sorry, didn't want this to spoil my evening.
Are you seriously suggesting that it is now unnecessary and 'too exacting' to expect a singer to be able to sing?
Dictionary definition (unless it's another of those words that has undergone Wikipeadia treatment).
"Amateur - a person who engages in any art, science, study or sporting activity as a pastime rather than a profession". No mention of 'fun' or taking things seriously - sorry.
Rafflesbear:
I'm assuming that your posting wasn't facetious so - here goes.
Thank you for your additions to the growing list of things that people haven't said - I suppose if we get enough of them we might just get round to taking them seriously, as it is, sorry, no cigar. Singing in tune and remembering words seem to me to be a fairly essential ingredient to being a singer - might be expecting too much - but that's me!!!
A lot of people tried your method and didn't go back - hence the steep decline in attendances - the discussion is towards helping to halt that decline and getting our music some respect (and who knows, maybe even a little self-respect), so if you have any suggestions to this end - please make them.
Now, off to see if our local musicians (all amateurs) can actually play - fingers crossed!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM

I am not going to get drawn into this thread. I initially found it interesting and made a couple of posts myself but have grown to despair of it as the same old arguments get churned over endlessly and the analysis has now reached the dictionary

I have added nothing to the list of things that people haven't said - I have had my own say in my own terms and quoted nobody

I do not fear for the future of the music that has been round longer than any other. On one website alone there are already over 70 significant festivals in the coming year. As regards folk clubs, unless I am mistaken they are independently run by individuals or groups of hardworking enthusiastic intelligent and knowledgable people who put their own time and energies into creating the type of club they want with the performing policies that they who put the work in decide - and bless every one of them

My suggestion for getting 'our' music (you may or may not like what I like) some respect is for each of the protagonists in this sad thread to wipe the slate clean, ignore what has been written to date, and each one to set down independently without reference to others what they would like to see in Folk Clubs

The one obvious thing in this thread is that you are not going to agree and you are not going to persuade each other - it would have happened by now. A list of each of your own personal preferences would be far more useful to a Folk Club organiser trying to get ideas than ploughing through everything that has been written here

Looking at the list of posters to this thread, it started off quite varied but it is now down to the hardcore so far from influencing people you are now down to the number of people you could get round a table. Pardon me if I now leave that table - I'm off to the bar

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM

A lot of people tried your method and didn't go back - hence the steep decline in attendances

I don't know about that. I think what's good for the clubs may not be the same as what's good for the music. Earlier on today I wrote about a club that's packing them in, has a huge roster of regular performers, and where it's considered perfectly normal to sing from a cribsheet or a songbook. If anything, I think this is one of the things people like about the club - they like to feel that anyone can have a go. It's certainly doing something right.

The trouble is, letting everyone have a go has become the main business of the club - it's certainly more important than providing a space for good performances of traditional music.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:45 PM

each one to set down independently without reference to others what they would like to see in Folk Clubs

First, I think all folk club rules should take the form of STRONG PREFERENCES. These STRONG PREFERENCES should be expressed informally by club regulars and failing that by the MC or organiser. The MC has the final say. STRONG PREFERENCES are not absolute; the MC has the right to make exceptions to his/her own STRONG PREFERENCES, and to overrule those of the regulars, for any reason that seems good enough at the time.

There should be a STRONG PREFERENCE for

- acoustic music with no amplification
- unaccompanied song as well as accompanied; accompaniment should not be the norm
- traditional repertoires
- singers to use something like their own accent
- joining in on choruses and repeats, but not otherwise
- frequent guests but a majority of singers' nights
- crib sheets not to be used obtrusively
- everyone who wants to sing to get a go (on singers' nights)
- nobody to get much more time than anyone else; this may mean that some performers get more *songs* than anyone else, depending on the song (I can dream - I remember one week I was on and off in the time it took the next guy to tune up...)

There you go - my dream folk club. What about anyone else?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:39 PM

Wow congrats on keeping the thread going and not to much blood in the sawdust.
I was sort of wondering about one of the earlier posts where some one said that it isnt unreasonable to expect a person who gets up to sing may have practiced the songs,got the ability to sing in tune,rythm etc and be able to convey the meaning of the lyric.
Just wanted to ask how you would know they had done all that without hearing them first?
I mean do you risk listening to someone who might not conform tot eh standard?
or wait until someone else tells you that they are acceptable.
I can see your point in the context of keeping your standards generaly decent over the whole evening,then just wondered how you would know.

I also read that folk is ridiculed and to be honest I never realy came across that personaly.
I have heard disparaging remarks and humourous ones too but I think as in all things if we keep a sense of humour and the potential sillyness of what we are doing in public we can get by with a smile.
I dont claim to be a folky performer as such but I do love to hear those of you that are.
Dont you sometimes struggle to keep a straight face when other types of music are in progress,young middle class lads with anguished souls singing the blues or us whinging snog biters banging on about stuff?
Even older gents still livin the rock and rolator lifestyle in their heads.
Sorry I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM

Hi Tim - Long night working on my new NAS drive (1TB Raid 1 - Super geek or what:-) ) So I am off to bed, but checked in before I do.

I think everyone, bar none, has said that they would give someone new a chance. So, unfortunately your question, sensible as it is, does not really arise. We all have to listen to someone and then make up our own minds whether they 'measure up'. Then keep reviewing it to see if they have changed!

Hope this helps.

Suprised you have not seen the general media piss-take of folk music - Where abouts are you based?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:49 PM

>>All this is very strange; the battlefield appeared to be littered with dead windmills carefully erected by those who would persuade us (apparently) that neither skill nor practice is needed to sing folk-songs (or am I guilty of erecting a windmill of my own? – it's a little hard to tell who is saying what among so many people not really saying anything).

Don't think that has been any part of my personal view on this thread but what the hell - it's a thread of huge sweeping statements which was why I tried to give some examples.

>>A singer should be able to sing – hold a tune, memorise the words, and understand the song enough to communicate that understanding to the listener.

I know someone who can definitely sing in tune. He knows the words. He understands the songs he sings. He is a terrible singer. (I can send you an example if you want)

I know you keep repeating it (10 times or whatever) but you're not really being clear. Most of the people I come across can do most of those things most of the time but not all are necessarily good singers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM

Tim,
Pip just said most of what I would have replied - have a look back at the thread made up largely of people throwing their toys out of the pram because of the BBCs taking the piss - 4 weeks ago I think.
I would only add as somebody involved in research and collecting, try getting The Arts Council interested enough to stump up a grant for publishing something sometime. Here in Ireland Pat and I have recently been awarded a substantial grant in order to index, annotate, archive and prepare for publication our collection of Travellers recordings. Up to the present economic downturn, anybody applying for such a grant was pushing on an open door. We have two world-class traditional music archives here and a growing number of regional ones.
I sat in a session last night and listened to, among others, a flute player and her two teenage children (concertina and flute). I first met the mother about 20 years ago when she was learning the flute - she now has a class of around 30 youngsters and her children are taking classes of around 10 pupils each.
I can turn the television or radio on 7 nights a week and listen to good traditional music and song and hear it discussed seriously, sensibly and with respect. The music here will survive as a respected art for at least another two generations (barring George Bush becoming president again and invading Stoke Poges for the oil).
Ten-fifteen years ago Irish music was being sneered at as diddly-di music - it was largely the domain of the glossy professionals such as Riverdance and The Chieftains. The situation was turned round mainly by some of those involved taking it seriously, expecting our singers to be able to sing and our musicians to be able to play (while having 'fun' at the same time).
Far from indulging in pointless and endless discussion, as an ex-pat (no pun intended) who cut his teeth on British Traditional music, I would like to see the same thing happen in the UK - not beyond the realms of possibility.
Nick;
Singing in tune and rhythm and remembering the words are the first teetering steps and, as far as I'm concerned, the very least we can ask of our singers before they become public ambassadors for our traditional songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:57 AM

'Ten-fifteen years ago Irish music was being sneered at as diddly-di music - it was largely the domain of the glossy professionals such as Riverdance and The Chieftains.'

The Chieftains have been getting serious respectful reviews for the best part of thirty five years I can remember.

We're both getting old Jim - I suspect that fifteen years is something that has jumped out of the timeslip - like fifteen years ago when JFK was president.....or fifteen years ago, around the time of the Suez crisis!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:18 AM

No, I think Jim is right. I vist Kerry quite a lot and around this time a lot of the pubs were playing American Country and Western music in preference to their own, it seems to have gone back to traditional Irish now. (Though Sligo/Mayo/Roscommon seem better served)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:41 AM

Re Pips preferences
I would go along with the majority of that myself.
I also would go along with whatever ground rules were in place at any venue I visited (as long as made aware of them politly!)
I know I have been lucky while trying to learn how to sing a song to an audience that listens(well maybe they sleep,but the snoring is politely controlled),Nick and his friends are just one shining example of experienced folkies who give a chump a fair break.
I know there are many others who,whatever they say on here sometimes,
do exactly the same.
SO whatever you post I will love and respect you anyway 'cos you are all lovely.
Dunno what that techy thing was you mentioned Mr Gnomo,but I was an expert for ten mins yesterday when I finaly realised I could just reset explorer to get rid of all the crap I have collected while browsing.
Shame 'cos managed to borrow a truly huge computer hammer for when we return from Hols.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:59 AM

You do not achieve a critical mass of players by telling people to keep on doing it till they get it right - before they can play out. How many people were put off music almost for ever by the school choirmaster (I know I was) or by interminable piano lessons (I escaped that one)? For the same reasons I never and will never read Shakespeare or Dickens or Bronte.

I thought the turnaround for Irish traditional music was rather longer ago - I forget which government - but Comhaltas got things moving with government money. It has been extensively discussed on the Comhaltas threads, the examination threads, the competition threads. But it has come at a cost - look at the narrow-minded prescriptiveness that the Captain recently exposed in that fRoots review he posted. It is also linked to a consiousness of being Irish (and of linkage to the goory days of Ireland as one of the principal centres of learning and art, not to mention tribal warfare) that is there lauded but here in England derided as racist.

It also I think may not be as successful as some would wish. Only last year my then lodger became friendly with a seaman whose family linked to the West Coast of Ireland and he (the seaman) went to a family celebration (I forget, wedding, wake, birthday, whatever) and came back with an edited video saying "This is proper Irish music". This was from somewhere way out on the West coast. Much of it was country and western, much of it was badly done, and the relieving touch came from two sisters singing what sounded to me like traditional Irish songs in Gaelic. They were 10 to 15 minutes relief from an hour and a half of dreck.

It's not all good in Ireland. It's not all bad here when youngsters like Ben Little (that should cheer Trevor up, Sue) are as good as they are, even if they have not really found their roots yet.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Keep that 'puter hammer, Tim! I may want to borrow it:-)

BTW - Noticed how an outbreak of common sense seems to have occured? What on earth is wrong with this place?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Critical mass???

They going to explode then?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:38 AM

WMD
The point I was making was that 15 years ago - as far as the media was concerned, Riverdance and The Chieftains (whatever we might think of them) was the only dish on the menu - that is no longer the case.
Richard,
Don't know where your friend was but he wasn't around last night - nor on any of the other three nights we are served good traditional music in this rural backwater.
Things are not perfect by any means, but they are infinitely better now, and improving every day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM

You let things drift for a couple of days and find there's so much to respond to.

Pip Radish

As Bryan said, there aren't that many really incompetent singers who want to sing.

Indeed (in my experience) there aren't. Jim's question - "Would you turn over a substantial slice of your club evening to a group of non-singers?" seems such an improbable scenario as to be meaningless. I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about it. More to the point, we are not going to decide our policy towards ALL floor singers on the remote possibility that a significant number of them are going to be incapable of remembering their words or holding a tune. It doesn't happen.

Snail;
".......as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work."
Fine – and when they have put in that work and mastered the basics, then they should be recognised as singers and given places as a performers.

Jim, how am I supposed to know? You got quite annoyed when you thought I had accused you of demanding auditions but yet again, you are saying that people have to have achieved a certain standard before being allowed to perform in public.

The talk seems to be of organisers putting performers in front of audiences as if they are three separate groups of people. They aren't; they are all the same people. Floor singers are audience members who get up and perform. Last night that could have been just about everybody in the room but, alas, we didn't have time.

Organisers are audience members who get to take the cash on the door, put out the chairs, send out the advertising, do the accounts, arrange the venue, book the guests... We create the environment in which the music can thrive. We are not in a position of authority over the other participants; we are their equal. They have just as much right to decide whether they are ready to perform in public as we do.

Pip, I think you would enjoy the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

In response to Richard Bridge there, about people being put off by the choirmaster and so-on. Yep, I was most definitely turned off of folk music in a big way back as a kiddie in 'music club', with dull flat singing and grotty recorders and bland little dirges...

Still gladly managed to forge an interest in music nevertheless, and (like many of us) have travelled round the houses, from my teens to my thirties through Indie to Rock, Punk, African, Fusion, Classical, Modern Classical, Early English, Arabic and so-on, until eventually I've stumbled back to Folk somehow as an adult.

At least now I'm finally discovering that Folk doesn't have to be anywhere near as dull and flat and deathly as it was condemed to sound all those years ago in 'music club'.

And in fact I'm discovering there's some genuinely progressive and stimulating material out there, just waiting for me to sit up and pay it heed. Which is fantastic. But I imagine there are a lot of my generation that were lost to folk because of their equivalent experiences in 'music clubs' around the country, who will probably forever be scarred, much like those who learned to hate Shakespear or even 'poetry' in school.

Fortunately for me, I had the opposite experience with literature, from my Mother who knew how to infuse fascination and joy into a story. And unlike many of my peers, I learned to love Classics from a relatively early age. Pity about 'music club' though... Because of all kinds of music, in many ways Folk is perhaps in principle the most embracing to the less well formally educated.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Ian Fyvie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 09:44 AM

Saw JOHNNY COLLINS at Lewes Arms FC (Lewes) last night - one of the best unaccompanied singers around.

Unlike Amber's egotistical booking seeker who was bored by everyone bar himself, Johnny last night was joining in with all the floor singers' chorus songs - well known or not. Excellent!

Amber's booking seeker should learn the ethics enjoyed by all at last night's excellent folk night forthwith!

Ian Fyvie

And I've seen all the rude behaviour highlighted by Amber at a bar singaround (since abandoned) a few years ago. What gets me is that some folk singers are actually ruder and more disruptive once they've done their supermarverelous party piece than a drunken punter just straying in!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:41 AM

Bryan:
I wrote some time ago on this thread:
"If they could hold a tune and make sense of the song they would be included fully in the proceedings - if they couldn't, they weren't, simple as that.
If the latter was the case one of us would approach whoever it was, sound them out and, if they showed any interest, they would be offered assistance, either on an individual basis or through the numerous workshops I have been involved in.
If they turned down the offer of help and continued to turn up, my own inclination would be not to invite them to sing again right away, but wait a few weeks and let them try again (and so ad infinitum, until they either showed progress or stopped asking)."
Now mystery about how you find how to find out whether a newcomer can sing - unless you choose to make it one for the sake of avoiding the issue.
I'm afraid your attitude exudes a smugness - "doesn't effect our club so it doesn't exist"; not my nor other people's experience I'm afraid.
It is perfectly feasible that a number of poor singers descend on a club - seen it happen. I ask again - what would you do if it happened to yours? What would you do if a single singer who couldn't sing persistently turned up expecting to sing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Ian Fyvie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM

Jim and Brian

On singers who might be frowned upon by some:

At our singarounds we have the criterion of "Good intent". If a poor singer (and that's 'subjective' with some of those who fancy themselves in our area) then they will probably want to improve. In some cases someone who holds poor tune can nevertheless be a spirited performer or sing exceptional songs.

If someone will always be a 'perpetual beginner' then any decent folk club will allow them to continue if they are genuine, and don't cross that bottom line into being a total pain to listen to. It depends if you attract that awful bottom rung middle class type of audience for whom no-one is any good unless they're a teacher! In which case - change your audience.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:20 AM

I can't add much more than I have already said. We run pretty much along the lines of Pip's preferences. Little bit too much Jazz and Blues for my tastes occasionaly but I can live with that and still enjoy most of it.

We cope with poor performers by restricting their exposure to singers nights. 95% of our regulars, or more, I would put on anywhere and anytime. I think it may be a bit of a compromise to let the poor singers continue but, provided we 'limit the damage' I don't think it will do either our club or the general world of traditional music much harm.

I think Jim is right in saying that poor performances can do some harm and the point we seem to be going round in circles on is what should be done about them. I am sure I have said this before but the choices seem to be -

1. Let them continue performing whenever they like and help as much as possible until they inevitably improve.

2. Restict their performances until they have shown some improvement.

3. Let them carry on in a restrcted manner ad-infinitum and make sure they do not come across as representative of the whole 'folk scene' (Whatever that is!)

I think they all have their place in different circumstances.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:02 PM

Jim wrote:
"I have to say that your description of a folk club (at a somewhat superficial glance) sounds less like the clubs I know and more like a Freemasons Lodge where the public does not venture, but as I said, a superficial glance."

It's a club, Jim, but not as you know it.

"the question here is what is the 'lowest' standard we are prepared to accept from performers at the clubs."

That's up to the club members.

"Our music is held to ridicule by those outside our immediate circles"

I find the opposite - I'm surprised, when you mantion it, how many people say that they enjoy folk music - often people who you would not expect to. Folk is becoming the new cool.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM

Folk may be the the new cool but that could start of the whole discussion on what is folk. Again! I for one do not want to get into that, although I do have views on it. Maybe 'Folk' is far too wie a description that covers the genre from Seth Lakeman to Bob Copper, June Tabor to Kate Rusby and Bellowhead to the Spinners!

I suspect that is where a lot of this disagreement lies. Maybe I see a folk club as something completely different from anyone else? Maybe we all do? In which case we will never agree on what an acceptable standard actualy are because we are never comparing like with like!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM

Jim Carroll

"If they could hold a tune and make sense of the song they would be included fully in the proceedings - if they couldn't, they weren't, simple as that.
If the latter was the case one of us would approach whoever it was, sound them out and, if they showed any interest, they would be offered assistance, either on an individual basis or through the numerous workshops I have been involved in.

So can I get this clear? You have frequently said that performers should do the necessary practice BEFORE they are allowed to perform in public. For instance, most recently -

and when they have put in that work and mastered the basics, then they should be recognised as singers and given places as a performers. (My emphasis this time.)

Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club and says they would like to do a floorspot should be allowed to do so? Excellent! As for offering assistance to the needy, we already have a lot to do without setting up special arrangements for a need that we do not perceive. Our workshops are generally run for twenty people. We do not have twenty people who can't sing in tune. We do not have twenty people who can't tune their instruments. We do not have twenty people who can't remember their words without a crib sheet.

I'm afraid your attitude exudes a smugness - "doesn't effect our club so it doesn't exist"; not my nor other people's experience I'm afraid.

Now who's putting words in other people's mouths? You have explicitly stated that the policy we operate, that if someone wants to sing or play they should be given the opportunity to do so, constitutes "if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.". I am simply reporting that that is not our experience. I cannot be held responsible for what happens at other clubs.

It is perfectly feasible that a number of poor singers descend on a club - seen it happen. I ask again - what would you do if it happened to yours?

This is a meaningless question. Nobody has "poor singer" branded on their forehead. What you are actually asking is "What would you do if a number of people we didn't know turned up to the club asking for floor spots?". We would give them floor spots of course. What would you do? Refuse to put them on in case they were all poor singers? That would be a pity because it is equally likely that they would all be brilliant. What is most likely is that one would be so-so, one would be excellent and the rest would be adequate.

What would you do if a single singer who couldn't sing persistently turned up expecting to sing?

Give them their spot, confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent, they would improve. I've seen it happen.

We do what we do and we find that it works. Come and see if you don't believe me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM

confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent, they would improve.

What if they didn't? It is not a rhetorical question, I've see that happen! To coin a phrase I just saw somewhere... Come and see if you don't believe me. :-)

Maybe it just boils down to that then. No-one believes anything unless they have seen (and heard) it for themselves. I know that most people will improve. I am also absolutely certain that a very few will not.

DeG

PS - I'm transfering data onto my new NAS drive that I set up yesterday if anyone was wondering why I am so long at my computer. I need to do it but it is SO boring. I'm playing nethack as well:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:17 PM

"That's up to the club members."
Only if the club is the centre of your universe; some of us feel that the music and our responsibility for it extends far beyond that.
"Folk is becoming the new cool."
As I said, read the other threads, count your membership, compare the number of clubs with those of fifteen years ago, try getting a grant for a folk event or some research, take a peep at the EFDSS accounts, see how often folk music is presented fairly on television and radio - to quote the man "a person should try everything once, except incest and folk-music" or "the only thing you can do with a folk tune once you have played it is to play it again louder", or more recently "my idea of hell is to be locked in a folk club in Leeds (or somewhere" - can't lay my hands on the exact wording for any of these so I have paraphrased them).
Bryan
Throughout this thread I have referred to persistently bad singers; my first posting described this to be the case and the quote you just used was sent way up this column - otherwise I would have been advocating auditions, which I have most decidedly not been - if you missed my postings please give me the benefit of the doubt for a little intelligence (I think the phrase I used was 'one bite of the cherry').
If, as you claim, non-singers turning up for spots, mob-handedly or singly, is not something your club experiences, fine, couldn't be more delighted, but this means your advocating 'all you need is the will to sing' is academic as far as you are concerned and you are proposing that those of us who have experiences to the contrary should 'lie back and think of... wherever' is more than a little... what's the word I'm looking for.... smug maybe?
Personally, even if it had not happened in my presence on numerous occasions I would be a little disturbed to hear that it was a frequent occurrence elsewhere; persistent bad singing has contributed a great deal to the decline in the clubs and was being debated under the heading 'Crap begets crap' decades ago in the pages of Folk Review.
Sorry, putting singers on before they are ready to face an audience (or even advocating such a practice) is "if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing" as far as I'm concerned.
As for your claim that "We do what we do and we find that it works" doesn't really apply to this argument as you haven't experienced the phenomenon that I, DeG and others have.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:19 PM

PS
What's nethack?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:58 PM

Jim, you contradict yourself so much that there is no point in spelling it out. It is sad because, if you would only drop your prejudices, you would find that there is much going on in UK folk clubs that you would enjoy and even admire. It's your loss.

On your own admission, you walked out on the UK folk revival ten years ago. Some of us stayed and are doing our best for the music we love. If you have nothing positive to contribute, go away and leave us alone.

I know nothing will persuade you, but thank you for allowing me to use you as a sound board to express my views about "what it's all about".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

Nethack

Very geeky, I'm afraid. I should practice the concertina more, really. Which is why I will only ever be 'adequate':-(

Now, Bryan, what about my question. What would you do if you came across someone who was bad to start with never got any better? I seriously hope you never do but, trust me, there are such things.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:33 PM

FFS! We are in danger here of disappearing up our own rear ends. No wonder the septics get pissed off with the navel-staring, OCD Brits!
For myself, I'd be happy to visit any of the paragons of perfection detailed on this thread, but I've not been lucky enough so far to have found them when the wind's in the right direction and the driver for the Variety Club Sunshine Coach for the Special Needs Singers hasn't left his GPS at home.
Ah well, one day...
Until then, I think I'll join Jim Carroll and Silas in the intolerant sad bastard corner, where we can take it in turns to smash shaky eggs to bits with toffee hammers and bemoan the fact that, for all the good intent on this thread, there are still people who should be fucking muzzled!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM

Come on Gervase - Tell us what you really think:-D

...and I don't remember you watching my last performance!

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

In my opinion,this thread is becoming ill mannered.
we all care about the music we like,perhaps it would be wise,just to agree to disagree,rather than engaging in point scoring.
to get back to the original point,here are my views.
it is good manners for a guest to stay and watch all the other singers,it is good manners for other singers to listen to other performers,it is good manners to applaud performers,it is good manners not to throw beer over people,it is good manners not walk out in the middle of someones song.
it really is quite simple ,treat other folkclub members in the way youiwould like to be treated yourself.yours sincerely, God.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:27 AM

Bryan:
"if you would only drop your prejudices,"
You mean roll over and agree with your somewhat dodgy contention that folk singing requires no standard (apart from the desire to perform) before being rolled out before an audience, paying or otherwise?
Cap'n,
Sorry to disagree; I think this thread, apart from a few lapses on all our parts, has been remarkably bloodshed free, particularly considering its length. We tend to argue passionately about the things we feel passionate about - and that can only be a good thing - surely.
As for those braindead prats who disagree with me.....!!!!!
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:38 AM

I thought it had become remarkably well mannered over the last few days!

But, I agree with the message from God, above. Manners come down to treating other people in the way you wish to be treated.

Don't distract others
Join in when required
Shut up otherwise
Don't subject people to unrehearsed twadle:-) (Except me...)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:41 AM

"there are still people who should be fucking muzzled!" LOL! And players who should be forced to wear boxing gloves.


Anyway, perhaps the analogy used about restaurants applies to folk clubs - "people get the clubs they deserve".

Just to go back to the original subject of manners, there are a couple of things that IMO apply.

The first is turning up on time. OK I've got a bit of phobia about punctuality, myself, but if singers drift in throughout the evening, an MC who is anxious to accomodate everyone instead of telling them to F-off has to constantly rearrange the running order and this can be irriating for other singers.

The second is people joining in with their instruments. It's fine in singarounds but, no matter how accomplished the musician, it can sometimes be quite disconcerting for a singer who has developed and practiced a particular arrangement of their own.

The third is people who tune up whilst someone else is performing. Sometimes it's hard to resist saying, "shut the fuck up or you'll end up with that guitar/banjo/whatever as a enema".

Let's face it tolerance only stretches so far.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM

Jim Carroll

You mean roll over and agree with your somewhat dodgy contention that folk singing requires no standard (apart from the desire to perform) before being rolled out before an audience, paying or otherwise?

What am I supposed to do, Jim, when you don't seem to have taken on a word I've said?

We don't roll singers out before an audience, we give members of the audience opportunities to perform. We don't say folk singing requires no standard, we say that we trust our floor singers to share our love of the music and set the standards for themselves. We try to lead by example; our own to the best of our abilities and that of the guests we book so that people will practice because they want to not because of some threat of withdrawal of privileges.

As I have said, "We do what we do and we find that it works." You seem to concede this when you say -

"I have no doubt whatever that there are clubs where the standards are high enough not to give the impression that folk singing is artless and inept; nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones,"

Rather bizarrely, you then seem to try and blame our policy at The Lewes Arms for poor standards elsewhere.

If we are to try and raise the public perception of folk music, the first step is to start believing in it ourselves. A while ago, people got up in arms about some stupid remarks by Matthew Parish. Who cares? It's those who rubbish our music from within that are the greater danger.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

Snail - I have no doubt that what you do works in your club and as far as you are concerned that is the beginning, middle and end of the matter.

In the world outside your excellent club however in some instances applying your strategy would not/does not work.

This is why several people have asked what exactly would you do in the scenarios described regarding improvement of singing standards.

Are they likely to get a response.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

John Routledge

Are they likely to get a response.

I thought I had given one. See my posting of 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM starting from where I quote Jim Carroll as saying - It is perfectly feasible that a number of poor singers descend on a club

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:58 AM

I `ad that Jim Carroll in my cab the other day and `e looked well beside `imself.
I said , "Whereto Jim?"
`e said, " The nearest chemist you know. I need some Paracetemol."
I said, " What, you got a `eadache or something?"
`e said, "Nah, I did a floor spot in a club last night and the bloke who runs it came up to me and asked if I wanted to go to their singing workshop. I said `What, to show `em `ow its done?` `e said, `Nah, to join the class!!`"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:00 AM

"GUEST,Jim Knowledge"
I take it from your accent that you are a London cabbie - in which case - couldn't have been me - I couldn't afford the fares they charge there - nor the time it takes to drive all rahnd the bleedin' ahses before they get you to were you wanna go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Went up to a London cabbie the other day and said "How do you get to the Albert Hall?"

He says, "Mate, you've gotta practice!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

In response to John R's comments, I'll repeat one unanswered one, Bryan.


The Snail 16 Nov. 2:03PM
confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent, they would improve.


Me (David el Gnomo) 16 Nov 2:18PM
What if they didn't? It is not a rhetorical question, I've see that happen! To coin a phrase I just saw somewhere... Come and see if you don't believe me. :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Snail,why does your Lewes folk club run workshops?
is it not to help improve standards?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Captain Birdseye

Snail,why does your Lewes folk club run workshops?
is it not to help improve standards?

Of course. We want to do all we can to help people improve.

Again let me refer you to my post of 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM, paragraph starting "Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club..."

They are aimed at anyone who wants to improve from whatever starting point. One of our fiddle workshops had seven violin teachers amongst the attendees.

They are not compulsory and attendance is not a pre-condition for getting a floorspot.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

Ever feel like you are being ignored? :-D

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

Brain dead prats who disagree with me........ oooo controversial or what !! Just when the thread was recovering from a surfeit of mis understanding??!!
Re Richard Bridge's experience ( choirmaster ) I was given an induction tour of the local Grammar school ( 11+ and all that) and because I couldn't span an octave? was told I would be taking Science and not Music.
My take on folk clubs now is to just enjoy a live performance, some are better than others but if the artist is being paid to perform then Jim's expectations apply.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

They are not compulsory and attendance is not a pre-condition for getting a floorspot.
this is a completely irrelevant comment,no one suggested that attending your workshops were a pre condition for doing a floor spot.
however you have a set up that many other clubs might be jealous of,the opportunity for folk club members to improve.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Captain Birdseye

this is a completely irrelevant comment,no one suggested that attending your workshops were a pre condition for doing a floor spot.

You appeared to be linking our workshop series to the "problem" of persistently bad singers. Jim most certainly has suggested that such performers be required to accept tuition or attend workshops before being allowed to sing again.

however you have a set up that many other clubs might be jealous of,the opportunity for folk club members to improve.

Thank you. Perhaps you understand why I am a little peeved to be told that our policy is crass and that we are championing crap singing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

Bryan,
"What am I supposed to do, Jim, when you don't seem to have taken on a word I've said?"
There appears to be a built-in arrogant assumption here that because you've said something we all have to agree with it, otherwise we either can't have been listening or are prejudiced. Sorry Bryan, you simply haven't made your case, simple as that.

"We don't say folk singing requires no standard,"
By saying that all it takes is the desire to sing, you ARE saying that singing requires no standard – what about holding a tune or remembering, understanding and communicating the words, are they not essential basics to singing?

"withdrawal of privileges"
Evocative and misleading language again. Nobody is advocating the "withdrawal of privileges"; we are suggesting that the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage – well within the reach of virtually everybody, or don't you think so?

"We do what we do and we find that it works."
As I said earlier – it all seems to be academic as far as your club is concerned; you have consistently told us that you don't get non-singers turning up asking to sing, so what you are advocating is that the rest of us tolerate what you don't have to.

"....and blame our policy at The Lewes Arms for poor standards elsewhere."
Once a gain, total misrepresentation of what we are saying. My/our opposition is to the idea that a singer doesn't have to reach a basic standard before they are asked to sing (once, of course, it has been established that they are unable to sing – "one bite of the cherry"). It may appear so to you but Lewes isn't the centre of the universe and NOBODY has suggested that your club is responsible for poor standards elsewhere – as you have assured us, your club doesn't have the problem of sub-standard singers turning up and asking to sing, so your argument is an academic one. This is not a discussion of the Lewes policy, but a general one of basic principles and standards.

".......stupid remarks by Matthew Parish. Who cares?"
I do. I have no idea of who Mathew Parrish is so I don't know with what authority he speaks, but I do know that public statements such as his are an indication of how our music is regarded outside of our own folkie world and have done much to create a disregard, and even a contempt for our music and have played a major part in keeping it off the media – or am I mistaken; does folk music get a regular and fair airing on television and radio and is it respected in the 'real' world? The disturbing thing about Parrish and his fellow knockers is that in many cases their criticisms have some foundation. If we do not respect our music enough to expect singers to be able to sing in tune before they appear in public, how the hell can we ask others to?

Throughout this thread, the arguments of those of us who suggest that standards are necessary have consistently been misrepresented, distorted and exaggerated, often deliberately I believe. I can't speak for anybody else, but, for what it's worth, this is a summing up of my argument, which hasn't altered because nobody has put forward a half decent one to counter it – on the contrary, the somersaults and distortions that have been used to undermine our case have strengthened my opinion that there is no argument for putting on singers who cannot yet sing.

From the point of view of the audience:
Nobody should have to listen to (or pay for) bad singing when, with a little effort on the part of the would-be singer, and with the help of the residents, their singing can be brought up to a reasonable (basic) standard. What is the hurry to sing in public; surely it is to the advantage of all concerned for a singer to get the basics under The position should never arise in a club that, when certain singers begin to sing, people slope off – to pee – to fill their pints – or simply to get out of range.
It is a sad fact that audience members, particularly new ones, will remember bad singing as much as they remember good singing; if not more so. Put on inept singing and your club stands a fair chance to be branded as a place for bad singing, no matter how good the other singers are – seen it happen and have on occasion been guilty of making such judgements myself in the distant past.

From the point of view of the other residents.
Anybody who has appeared with a singer/singers with basic problems must have experienced that legs-crossing embarrassment, both on behalf of the singer and of the club you are trying to promote. I've known it totally spoil an evening and have heard residents apologise when it happens. With a little preparation it simply isn't necessary, so why put anybody through it, the new singer included?
How are the residents and regulars expected to react to bad singing? Do they applaud riotously, thereby persuading the aspiring singer that what they have just done was the best thing since the invention of the wheel - so keep on truckin' – no need for any work – see you next week?
Do they clap politely, giving the impression that the singing was 'well – ok, leaving them in limbo and not knowing where they stand?
Or do they go down for a pee and a pint and pretend nothing happened?
Or what?

From the point of view of a new singer.        
What on earth difference can it make whether a singer appears tonight or in three of four weeks time when they have managed to put in the work and taken advantage of the assistance that any self-respecting folk club has to offer, which should include confidence building and relaxation to overcome nerves?
It has always seemed to me that putting a new singer before they are ready is like throwing somebody into a swimming pool in order to teach them to swim – sure, some might make it back to the side, but what about those who don't – let the buggers drown??? I'm sure that I'm not alone in having experienced the feeling jeeze – why did I do that and why didn't some bugger stop me?

Answer these questions Bryan and you might go some way to persuading me that you have something to say.

More to be said, but this is far too long as it is.
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan,
"Jim most certainly has suggested that such performers be required to accept tuition or attend workshops before being allowed to sing again."
I suggested no such thing - I did say that any singer with basic problems should overcome them before they became regular singers at the club no matter how they did it - workshops are an alternative, certainly not a condition, as were one-to-one work with other residents, or simply sitting at home with a recorder until they got it passably right - please don't distort what I have said.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:18 PM

this is the problem,if clubs allow large numbers of extremely bad singers,[tone deaf,unable to hold a key],without offering workshops,the singers will not improve,the club will suffer,and the music will suffer,in as much as it will not be an enticement to listeners because the standard is awful.
if I was running a club,I would allow singers providing their instruments were in tune,they could hold a key for the length of a song,that is a pretty low standard,I do not expect amateurs to be as good as professionals.
I prefer if they didnt use word sheets,particularly on guest nights,a goal for new singers to aim towards,to try and work hard to memorise one song for a guest night,its not asking much is it?
if they dont want to do this then they dont sing on a guest night,people pay more money on guest nights,so its not unreasonable to expect a better standard.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM

A quickie here in response to Captain Birdseye. I don't wish to be rude, but how long ago were you a 'beginner'? For me, though I do set the songs I'm learning to heart - simply because I genuinely want to do it for myself as much as anything, there is the whole 'first night nerves' thing. Even the best actors freeze up on stage. Pethaps a little flexiblility could be allowed for the genuinely enthused newbie, who may be anxious the first few times they attempt to sing in public. In the last couple of months I've set around a dozen or so songs to heart. I've sung those to small audiences with very brief glances to word sheets at anxious moments. An experienced performer may forget what it's like to be a newbie? A thorticle.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Quoth Jim

"We don't say folk singing requires no standard,"
By saying that all it takes is the desire to sing, you ARE saying that singing requires no standard"

Funny, when I said on the "folk voices" thread that that was what you were saying, you gainsaid it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:13 PM

Quoth Jim   "the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage"

Sorry Jim, but that is "If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you". It's all there is to it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:32 PM

Jim, my outburst of frustration was not because you have disagreed with what I have said but because you have totally ignored it. Please respond to the points I made in my posts of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM and 16 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM. Then I will answer your questions.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:36 PM

Captain Birdseye

large numbers of extremely bad singers

Where are these people? They certainly aren't at the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

Sleepy Rosie, come to the Lewes Arms where you will find an appreciative and supportive audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

I did not say they were,but it can be arranged.,how many do you want and how much do you pay
Rosie I have not forgotten,
when I was a newbie,nobody sang with words they would have been laughed off the stage,we practised and rehearsed hard,the competition was stiff to get a floor spot,standards were high,there were floorsingers like Paul Simon etc.,in fact he was turned away tat the rising sun in Catford,the organiser DaveCooper said I have seen you before, I dont like what you do,on your bike[or words to that effect]

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

Sorry Bryan, help me out here; what points in the posting you mentioned have I not responded to; I may have missed something but as far as I can see I have covered them all a number of times.
"Where are these people? They certainly aren't at the Lewes Arms."
Do you not believe those of us who have said we =have encountered bad singers frequently?
Richard;
Are you assuming that those expected to put in the necessary work are going to refuse?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:30 PM

Hmm, well seeing as Paul Simon, has done rather well for himself, it'd seem that kicking him out of the club, was something of a faux pas? Kinda like the local pie and mash shop rejecting a michelin starred chef? Not for the first or last time of course... Anyways, I think that the inability to allow a new singer a bit of a confidence boost with a discreet word sheet, is a little stiff. But fortunately of course, not everyone thinks alike. There is gladly a middle ground, as is indeed being vibrantly opinioned in threads such as this.. ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:51 PM

Jim Carroll

Sorry Bryan, help me out here; what points in the posting you mentioned have I not responded to

Um, all of them? Help me out here. Point me to where you have responded to any of them. In particular, what is your response to my assertion that organisers, performers and audience are not separate groups but overlapping categories within the same people and what you would do if a group of unknown people turned up at your club (if you ran one) asking if they could do floor spots? (Assuming they didn't have "Poor singer" branded on their foreheads.)

Do you not believe those of us who have said we =have encountered bad singers frequently?

Please explain why the policy we operate at The Lewes Arms is responsible for the "large numbers of extremely bad singers" which apparently infest the clubs you attend. Strange, I go to other clubs but I haven't met them there either.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

well Rosie,
Paul Simon may have done well for himself,so has Daniel O Donnell,popularity does not necessarily equate with quality.
I wouldnt bother to see Paul Simon,but that a matter of taste, he is certainly competent,and his songs are popular but so is D.O.D..
you asked me a Question, I gave you the truth,no one sang from crib sheets,so why is it necessary now?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM

I'm just back from Mike Canavan at Swinton with support singers, Me (one very quick song), Double Trouble (2), Gary and Vera Aspey (3) and Carol Jones (2). It was an excellent night but there were some people there who I just could not not get on. Even so we did not finish until 2350! Apologies to those who did not make it.

I am still waiting for the answer to my question. Bryan, what would you do with a singer who failed to improve? Do you not believe that they exist? Why not? There is enough evience. Or are you not answering my question for some other reason?

Cherrs

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:50 AM

In all this discussion about 'music' it's easy to forget an equally important part – the 'folk'. In my book, folk music exists for the maximum number of people possible to enjoy, whether listening or singing. The folk club is a relatively new institution so, in a way, it isn't at the heart of the music. Some of my most enjoyable experiences have been impromptu sing-songs in people's house, pubs, at parties and in caravan awnings at festivals. Nobody worrying about who could sing well and who couldn't – just everyone enjoying themselves. It's a revival of this sort of communal singing that people like Jon Boden are trying to encourage. Yes, it's easy to mock when I say that folk music should be 'fun' – but what is the point otherwise?

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand the objection to song sheets. When I go to a classical concert, the orchestra and conductor have music in front of them. Maybe they should just practice more and memorise it. And when I once went to church (oh, alright, twice) we were given books with the words of the hymns in them. Nobody said we weren't allowed in until we'd memorised all the words. With the best will in the world, we all forget the words from time to time – I've stood up in front of an audience to sing I song I wrote myself and have performed dozens of times and, for some reason, couldn't remember past the first line. Surely it's better to have the words on hand than dry up? Talking of which.....better get some work done.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:57 AM

Bryan, 16 Nov 08 - 02:03
This is the posting you want answering - here goes
"Are you actually saying that anyone new who turns up to a club and says they would like to do a floorspot should be allowed to do so?
Yes - though I would prefer the term 'encouraged' rather than "allowed" - one bite of the cherry as I have already stated several times.
"we already have a lot to do without setting up special arrangements for a need that we do not perceive....."
You have made clear that do don't have the problem of non-singers turning up, though you do seem to be having difficulty in believing that the rest of of have encountered it - in some cases often. What do you suggest that clubs do about it - so far, your idea seems to be, let them go ahead and practice in public.
Your attitude still seems to be - "doesn't effect our club so it doesn't exist"; not my nor other people's experience I'm afraid.
"I cannot be held responsible for what happens at other clubs."
I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy but a general discussion on what happens in folk clubs; if you want a discussion on your club policy, start a separate thread.
"Nobody has "poor singer" branded on their forehead..... We would give them floor spots of course. What would you do?"
Again, I have answered this "one bite of the cherry and ask them to put in the work", plus offer of help. From the beginning the question has been about non-singers who persistently turn up.
"What would you do if a single singer who couldn't sing persistently turned up expecting to sing?" "Give them their spot, confident in the knowledge that, by sharing a venue with all the other floor singers that they heard over the evening, varying from adequate to excellent."
In my experience it is extremely debatable whether the best place for singers to learn to sing in tune is in front of an audience - from the point of view of both the singer and the audience. You use the term "adequate to excellent" - do you consider singers who can't sing in tune and are unable to communicate the words 'adequate'?
"We do what we do and we find that it works......"
But you don't have the problem of non-singers turning up - what's to work?
It is the responsibility of club organisers, to the audience (paying or otherwise), the residents and the music to see that what goes on at clubs it to a standard that can be appreciated and enjoyed; sorry, can't understand how people can enjoy consistently poor singing, which is totally unnecessary if recognised as such and worked on.
There, been right through your posting - now you are free to respond to mine - or not, as the case may be.
I assume from your last posting that you believe that I and others on this thread are inventing our experiences regarding poor singing in clubs - is it still a case of 'if it doesn't happen at Lewes it can't exist?'
Richard;
"If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you"
I have never said this, nor would I - it is not within my power to 'ban' anybody', even if I wished to - which I don't. I have explained throughout this thread how I would deal - and have dealt in the past with singers who were having problems; 'banning' has never come in to the equation.
I find your accusation as offensive as I am sure you would would find mine if I were to suggest that you would take every second good singer out into the yard and execute them because "there are too many masters".
The value of this discussion lies in the fact that it is and exchange of ideas between people who care enough about the music to want to do something about it - snide remarks really don't help.
While I'm at it - wouldn't it be a little considerate to confine our arguments to this thread and not let them spread to others on a totally different topic?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

Surely it's better to have the words on hand than dry up? Talking of which.....better get some work done.
No [imo] it isnt.
classical musicans,use music for different reasons.
1. The pieces are much longer.
2.there are instriuctions on the music regarding interpretation.
3.they are not all playing at the same time and need to have instructions[like 33bars rest ETC].

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:17 AM

Why don't we do what they do in Golf !?

As Derek Brimstone pointed out, in golf the worst you are, the more goes you get....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

Quoth Jim   "the act of singing publicly should carry the responsibility of putting in the work beforehand in order to reach a fairly basic stage"

Sorry Jim, but that IS   "If you aren't good enough, I'm banning you".

It's all there is to it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:50 AM

Jim Carroll said:-
I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy

Which Lewes club might that be, Jim?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

Richard - if we get banned, its God's way of telling us we should never have bothered with the miserable sods in the first place.

In some cases, I just wish God had told us sooner and more forcefully - and without leaving room for ambiguity.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:52 AM

I don't believe it says anything of the sort, Richard, and Jim has stated quite categoricaly that he would not ban anyone. I also believe that the act of singing publicly carries the responsibility to do it well and I don't think people should be banned from singing altogether. I do believe that it is not in the best interests of the audience to have bad singers on during a concert they have paid for. If that is a ban then who can I get to represent me in the case I have against the Albert Hall, who heve banned me from performing with Martin Carthy?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM

Well, Jim, you continue to ignore my post of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM but while I'm waiting for you to respond to that I'll have a go at what I've got.

I have repeatedly said that this is not a discussion on the Lewes Club policy but a general discussion on what happens in folk clubs;

You also said -
If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

and repeated the accusation a number of times saying - "explain how you are not" so it appears we ARE discussing the Lewes Arms Folk Club policy (not Lewes Club please).

I don't doubt for a moment that there are poor singers at other clubs, some people seem to take a perverse pride in saying how many they have got, I'm just baffled as to why you seem to be using it to justify your criticism of the LAFC.

You use the term "adequate to excellent" - do you consider singers who can't sing in tune and are unable to communicate the words 'adequate'?

No, I meant people who, at the very least meet your minimum requirements but are, perhaps, a little uninspired.

But you don't have the problem of non-singers turning up - what's to work?

Have you paused to consider why we don't get non-singers turning up? Could it be BECAUSE of our policy as part of our philosophy and attitude? Could it be that our way DOES work?

is it still a case of 'if it doesn't happen at Lewes it can't exist?'

Now, now, Jim., don't put words in other peoples mouths. Not saying anything of the sort but I can't solve other clubs problems for them. All I can do is describe what we do and the results we get in the hope that others might find it useful.

Now, if you'd just like to comment on my post of 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM, perhaps we can make some progress.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:54 AM

If you haven't made any 'progress' after 900+ posts I think its a lost cause.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:12 AM

ah yes, which cause would that be?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM

its a 'B' cause.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM

To read, or not to read: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the club to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous memory,
Or to take arms against a sea of muffed lines,
And, using crib sheets sing them? [Umlaut]

There is a weekly folk club in deepest Sussex - not a million miles from me - where, on alternate weeks, the evening is "open stage". Roughly 99% of the audience - say around 80 people - are regulars and around 20 of them will probably do a spot (2 songs) on these nights.

The majority - not all - but around 50% of those performers bring their music, place it on the stand, and then perform. Mainly not very well. Sometimes the percentage is higher. I can actually put up with inadequate singing, poor instrumental playing, lacklustre performance, etc. But when that is coupled with having the chords/words/dots in front of you - that's when I put down me pint and say "Enough is enough". Surely to God, if you know the club, if you know the people, if you know the form and that you will get 2 songs and no more, then does it not make sense to take the trouble to learn your two songs for the night?

When I first went to this same club - around 25 years ago, there wasn't a music stand in sight. When I started performing in clubs - over 40 years ago - there was never a music stand in sight. But - 25 years later on, this club audience seem not to care. Everyone's "fantastic" - everyone's "super". Supine is the word I'd use, but there you go.

Have I ever used music? Yes - when playing for around 6 years in the late 1970s with a mainstream jazz band, where I compiled a "real book" of around 400 or so jazz standards. The band was regularly visited by players who wanted to sit in - and who would choose what they wanted to play (players like Humphrey Littleton and George Chisholm), and I just wasn't able to recall every one of those standards without a quick peek at the book.

But I have never used crib sheets in folk clubs - not ever, not never, not nohow. Not as a floor singer or as a guest. I simply believe that, if you know you've got the opportunity to sing one or two songs at the most - then learn the buggers! Have I ever forgotten words or chords? Of course - because I'm relatively human. But you learn to get round it - you can stop and make a joke about it - busk the lines and think "sod it" - and so on.

So my performance yardstick for beginner floor singers would be: Learn at least 1 song so that you can perform it on the night, to the best of your ability, from memory. Record it, if you can, and see what it sounds like played back. Perform it to a friend or friends - or to your Mum (!) - get some feedback. In short - just do some necessary and preliminary work first, which will help your performance and give more pleasure to your listeners. I can still remember my shaky guitar playing and equally shaky voice from 1965, when I performed for the first time at a student club in Leeds. I was absolutely nervous, had lost sleep the night before thinking about it - but it never occurred to me to use a crib sheet.

Just my 10 penn'orth.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Will, that is spot on.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:23 AM

Well, Bryan, you continue to ignore my posts of 16 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM, 16 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM, 17 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM, 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM and 17 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM but while I'm waiting for you to respond to that I'll have a go at what I've got. :-D

You happily accept that there is the occasional poor performer at other clubs. You, quite rightly, say you cannot solve other clubs problems. But surely that is what this is all about isn't it? Helping each other. The Lewes Arms Folk Club is obviously very well run and advice from an organiser of such an excellent establishment would be more than welcome.

So, I'll try again, Just what would you do with a poor performer who failed to improve?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:39 AM

BTW - I think bad singers or poor performers may be misleading here. I suggest we stick to 'non-improvers', 'serial song stranglers' or 'complete no-hopers'. So as to distinguish those who make the odd mistake, as we all do, from those who have no musical skills to start with and then never get better.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

Dave, presumably the Snail has workshops at his club,to give performers the opportunity to improve.
I cant think of any other reason why someone would put workshops on,so a poor singer might have an opportunity to improve if he turned up at Snails workshops.
the problem as I perceive things here[on this thread],is that The Snail is too concerned about his abilty as a member of some imagined debating society,and scared he will lose debating points.
I know, I have in the past been pursued mercilessly by The Snail.[see Dick Miles Jazzsinger thread]on and on and on,being pursued by the snail is rather like being bombarded by a boomerang.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:56 AM

This goes round and round in circles and you are not basically disagreeing with each other but still desperately trying to. So I'll throw something new into the discussion on another post.

Bryan, I would guess, doesn't have a problem with the quality of singers and performers even though he puts up no barriers to people becoming involved and I would guess that is for a really simple reason - THE STANDARD IS GOOD.

Most people I'd argue (not all people, most people) gauge their comfort in playing somewhere by the general standard they encounter. I would guess that people either go first and listen at Bryan's club at the Lewes Arms and then decide whether they would fit in and match their own standard to the norm. Or they turn up the first time and have a go and either fit in or don't. If they don't (whether they are too good or too bad) they'd probably not feel comfortable and probably don't return. A friend of mine who I play gigs with sometimes is incredibly relaxed when he plays at most things but was still pretty nervous when he supported Frankie Gavin the other week and similarly was more nervous than usual playing guitar in front of Martin Carthy - it applies at most levels for all people.

So the standard stays roughly at a level as it broadly is self-regulating without lots of intervention. I'm guessing on this but it has tended to be my experience.

I've played in a reasonable number of sessions and singarounds in various parts of the country (and Scotland) and approach it that way - I usually go in, have a little look, work out what the level is like and whether I feel I'd fit in before joining in or asking if I can. So I've left places without playing if I feel it is in neither of our interests that I get involved. I'm guessing most people are similarly sensitive.

If I look at our local gathering (which actually ticks all but one of Pip Radish's dream folk club - and that is only on the unobtrusive songsheet question) most of the people who play or come regularly first came along and watched a few times before being involved.

I'll post my next question soon.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:58 AM

"I know, I have in the past been pursued mercilessly by The Snail.[see Dick Miles Jazzsinger thread]on and on and on,being pursued by the snail is rather like being bombarded by a boomerang."

ditto

That's why I'm staying out of this one.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

Will makes an important point - part of learning to be a singer is learning to cope with disasters - those dreadful moments when the next verse is looming and you haven't a clue how it starts, when your fingers get tangled in the accompaniment, when you start in the wrong key...

I was once complimented that I seemed never to forget the words. I thought, "If only you knew!" I have learned how to make up convincing words as I go along, strategically mumble where necessary, to throw in an instrumental break and make it look as if it was part of the arrangement. You don't learn how to do this if you have a crib sheet.

When I started out I used to do floorspots at one of the Cap'n's clubs, and I can confirm that crib sheets were hardly ever used and were generally frowned upon. There were no rules as such, simply our own self-respect as would-be performers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

Dave, presumably the Snail has workshops at his club,to give performers the opportunity to improve.

I would have thought so, Dick. That is why I keep asking the question - What would be his couse of action if there was no improvement? But as I have had no response I do not know and will not make any assumptions about what action he would take.

I'm not sure about the 'scared of losing debating points bit'. Surely no-one would think that an internet discussion forum was that important would they? Particularly if their life was as full of real interest as Bryan's obviously is.

But let's not turn this into any sort of discussion on individual members and try to get it on track to be a guide as to how to get the audience, the artists and the floor singers to behave well at folk clubs:-)

Very good points, Nick. Maybe the Lewes Arms does not attract non-improvers because of the high standard. Maybe ours attracts one or two because, like you saw at the festival, we make sure they join in regardless! Maybe others attract more than their fair share because in that particular area there is more than a fair share of people who are not as sensitive to what is going on? I realy don't know but would be interested to find out. Looking forward to your next question.

Cheers

DeG

BTW - Did you ever imagine this thread would be knocking on the door of a 1000 posts!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:39 AM

Will - I can actually put up with inadequate singing, poor instrumental playing, lacklustre performance, etc. But when that is coupled with having the chords/words/dots in front of you - that's when I put down me pint and say "Enough is enough".

I do agree. I'm blessed with a retentive memory, and I can count the times I've used words to perform with on one finger (and that was a poem rather than a song - the notes seem to help things along). So I do have to remind myself to have a bit of patience with people who find it harder to learn long and fiddly songs. But when it's three chords and three verses (and one of them's a repeat), and you're taking it at a nice steady pace so that you'd have plenty of time to remember the next line if you did dry up, I really do start to wonder what that music stand is for.

People still clap though, that's the thing. I think Nick's put his finger on it - different clubs find their own level.

I agree with Howard too - drying up happens. I used to do an unaccompanied version of Nick Drake's song Which Will - nice simple tune, only two verses, and if you nail the first verse and get people's attention you can finish off by getting quieter and quieter, which is always a good effect. Anyway, one night I got a song in the second half when I wasn't expecting it, got up & launched into Which Will. It went fine until the end of the first verse, and then... nothing. All I knew was that it was Which something... When I realised it wasn't going to come, I just went and sat down again. Then I went back next week & did something else.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Thanks Nick. I think that says it very well. It's interesting to compare the club Will Fly describes where it has simply become the norm to use crib sheets and music stands. It is self perpetuating - "Fred does it so it's all right for me to do it". I don't know what can be done about it except leading by example which Will appears to be trying to do. (and he's bloody good.)

I think Pip had it right too when he spoke about Strong Preferences. It is the job of the residents to set the style and (to the best of their ability) set the standard.

As a committee, we do a lot of work to try and promote the music we love, some far more than me. I think I am entitled to speak up in our defence when I am told that what we are doing is "crass" and that we are "promoting crap standards".

On a broader scale, I get pissed off with people who complain about the poor public image of folk music and then proceed to rubbish it from within. If you don't believe in it yourself, how can you expect to persuade anyone else?

I've been steadfastly ignoring The Gnome for some time now but I don't seem to be able to shake him off.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM

And nobody has noticed you still haven't answered his valid question :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

There were no rules as such, simply our own self-respect as would-be performers.

Nice one, Howard Jones! A key point neatly put.

What happens with people who have no self respect or no insight into their own limitations though? Like me?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

I've been steadfastly ignoring The Gnome for some time now

Why is that Bryan?

but I don't seem to be able to shake him off.

We are a tenacious lot:-)

So, come on then. I am asking your advice as an organiser of a club with a very high standard of floosingers. What would you do with someone who was really quite bad and could not or would not improve? We have a couple and I really want to know what to do with them.

Thank you in anticipation

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM

People very swiftly notice whatever the underlying thing that's going on - folk clubs are no different than anything else in life.

I went to a place recently that used to have a particularly well run (and well behaved) session/singaround and it was complete and utter chaos! It was noisy and undisciplined. People played half a tune - did something else. It didn't start on time. Someone started somewhere else - three people started at the same time. Standards were way down and noone cared - and I would guess that some of the better people who used to come probably don't now and the numbers will drift down and down. I got a lot of goes and played along to the one other person who seemed interested because noone seemed to want to play or do anything. Probably won't race back.

There is another place that I occasionally go to that I don't particularly enjoy. It is one where a small group of organising folk seem to be the only people who are important in the place so it's not much fun to be at - some of the manners there by people who should know much better are poor.

But you always have a choice.

You either have someone who runs it and make things clear as to what goes on. Or you have a generally accepted 'club ethic' which is less overtly stated but abundantly clear as to what is expected by act and deed which is probably why our little gathering has kept going for quite a few years now too - especially as it manages to juggle a traditional unaccompanied group, a small session group and a more general broader group all playing reasonably happily together without one action managing to get rid of the others. Whether that is bad or good I don't know but it is an interesting tension.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

They even put up with the jazzzzz.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Nice.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:26 PM

What happens with people who have no self respect or no insight into their own limitations though? Like me?

To my certain knowledge you're keenly, perhaps excessively, aware of your own limitations.

On another thread someone mentioned a performer who's a fixture at Chorlton FC. His singing voice is far from mellifluous, his pitching is very approximate and his repertoire numbers about a dozen songs, almost all of which he reads out of a book. Perhaps Bryan could consider what they'd do at the Lewes Arms if someone like that started turning up week after week. (What they do at Chorlton is put him on first.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

Blimey, 19 pages of 'manners'...and all because someone ate some crisps. ;0)

Is this why Folk Clubs in the UK aren't doing very well, I wonder?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM

Perhaps Bryan could consider what they'd do at the Lewes Arms if someone like that started turning up week after week.

I have absolutely no idea. I expect we'd find a way to cope. If it ever happens, I'll let you know.

I can't really see the point of having contingency plans for every hypothetical situation that might arise. We have more urgent worries like what to do when you've got a room full of people you'd love to give a spot to but there just isn't time. That one happens quite often but never gets easier. Or you've just about worked out that you can fit everybody in but someone really good turns up late. Do you ask someone who's been there since the start to stand down to make room for the latecomer?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

Bryan,
Think I might have responded to the wrong posting:
The only thing I can see that I haven't covered from the one you mention is:
re organisers:
"They have just as much right to decide whether they are ready to perform in public as we do."
The responsibility of those running a folk club has to be to the music and to the audience - if it is the decision of a club to present bad singing, it is insulting to the people who take the trouble to turn up and pay their pennies and it is damaging to the point of destruction to the music.
This does not just apply to folk clubs, but to any group involved in the performing arts. What should an amateur dramatic society do with an aspiring actor who can't move on stage, can't project and can't remember and interpret lines - give them apart because they want to act? - now that would be stupid.
"No, I meant people who, at the very least meet your minimum requirements but are, perhaps, a little uninspired."
No problem with that - it is not these who are under discussion.
"Have you paused to consider why we don't get non-singers turning up?"
Yes I have - I was hoping you might enlighten us on this one - is it because there are no bad aspiring singers in your area? - have you been lucky in them not visiting your club and asking them to sing? - is there something about the aura of your club that puts them off? you tell us - perhaps some of the clubs that have the problem might be able to use the information.
"Dave (he who you have chosen to ignore - I wonder why?) asked the 64,000 dollar question "So, I'll try again, Just what would you do with a poor performer who failed to improve?"
I have suggested, and nobody has challenged the idea, that virtually anybody can sing - if they put in the work and conquer the basics, no problem, you have a new singer, if they refuse to do the work and the offer of help and can't sing, they haven't shown any willingness to be a singer and therefore should not be regarded as one. In the unlikely event of somebody physically being unable to sing - there are plenty of other things to be done in the music - you listed some of them Bryan.
I used occasionally to go to a club in the Midlands which was run by an extremely efficient young woman who organised the club superbly. I asked her once if she'd ever wanted to sing - she said she had, but had never managed it, despite the work done with her by club residents.
I turned up one Sunday night to find she had become one of the best storytellers I had ever heard; horses for courses (and courses for horses)!

Now, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability - how about you answering mine - should I risk holding my breath?
Jim Carroll
PS Bryan, as much as you may claim otherwise, this discussion is about standards, not the Lewes Arms Folk Club.
Sorry Vic - I keep using Lewes as a shorthand, particularly as you are not involved in this discussion - would very much be interested in your opinion should you choose to offer it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:38 PM

Soooo! Dave Cooper kicked Paul Simon out,, some people must have different basic standards!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

Are the folk clubs in the US and Canada run along the same lines as the English Folk Club ones?

It's just that I get this feeling that probably they don't have rules and regulations, but just turn up and enjoy playing music together..

Obviously, I could be very wrong and they may well have 'hidden gibbets' on the corner of every street, as I've a feeling we do here in England, for people who are considered to be bad mannered by those who apparently know better...

And do 'English folk club manners' differ from ordinary good manners?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM

I think Bryan may well have answered my question, albeit phrased slightly differently. Pip said 'Perhaps Bryan could consider what they'd do at the Lewes Arms if someone like that started turning up week after week.'. 'Someone like that' being the type of person I am refering to I believe. Bryans answer, and excuse me if I am wrong was

I have absolutely no idea. I expect we'd find a way to cope. If it ever happens, I'll let you know.

and went on to say

I can't really see the point of having contingency plans for every hypothetical situation that might arise.

At least I believe that answers my question. Well done, Bryan. At least we now know what you would do. You would 'find a way to cope'. Sounds fine to me but does not really give me any new ideas. At Swinton and Chorlton we limit the exposuere given so they do not do any real damage. Jim, if he ran a club, would check them out perioicaly to see if they had improved and if not get them to practice a bit more. All admirable ways of coping I believe but if anyone else has any further suggestions I would welcome them.

Now, if you would only let us all into the little secret of how we can make you ignore our postings we can happily get on with some more sensible discussions:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

No Lizzie - Folk club manners SHOULD be the same as everyday manners but while people insist on coming in and out when artists are performing, being noisy, ignoring other peoples feelings and torturing well loved songs, as well as ear drums, there will be a need for these 'rules an regulations' you are suggesting are so abhorrent. Maybe it is th decline in everyday manners that is causing people to not go in folk clubs? When people in the folk club becomes as rude and ignorant as some you see outside I, for one, will call it a day. Hope this helps.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Yes, but there's something going on here. I truly don't see the Canadian and US posters getting their knickers in a twist about it all, in the same way that the English do, and I'd love to know why, that's all.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

OK, I've worked it out....I think I'm more Canadian and American, than English. The stork dropped me in the wrong country, because 19 pages, and near on 1,000 posts on 'folk club manners' has me befuddled.

The weird thing is, that in Mudcat at least, the Canadian and US posters are incredibly more polite than the English. Work that one out..

:0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

At Swinton and Chorlton we limit the exposuere given so they do not do any real damage.

I guess that's the idea - I'm not convinced putting the guy on first is limiting the exposure, unfortunately. Having him open the night sets the bar very low, put it that way.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:21 PM

It's something about folk clubs, Lizzie - they seem to bring out the anal retentive in every Englishman.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM

Englishman and woman,no need for sexism.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:03 PM

Quoth Jim: -

"if they refuse to do the work and the offer of help and can't sing, they haven't shown any willingness to be a singer and therefore should not be regarded as one."

There you go again.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM

Just popped back in to see how things are progressing 100 posts after my last contribution

Come on you guys admit it - you're using cut and paste

To sum up

one faction thinks that people should be of a standard before club organisers let them have a go

the other faction thinks that everybody should be allowed to have a go and natural selection will sort it out

see if you can expand on that guys

if anyone wants to make a laughing stock of folk music you're doing a brilliant job

back to you -

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

The weird thing is, that in Mudcat at least, the Canadian and US posters are incredibly more polite than the English. Work that one out..

Check out any thread with WalkAboutsVerse on and check some of the transatlantic vituperation. But that's an aside.

Are folk club manners different than normal ones?

I don't think so. I'll give you an example. You stand at a distance watching a group of people who you don't know thoroughly enjoy a discussion for some time. You walk up to them and say 'I'm very befuddled as to why you have had this conversation for so long' especially as those other people over the other side of the room aren't having the same conversation. And then you say 'I've got it now it's because those people over there are much nicer than you!'

I'd reckon people would probably tell you to fuck off. But that's just me I don't have manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

.I think I'm more Canadian and American, than English.

With no wish to offen you, Lizzie, but if you feel that is the case then why do you not go to Canada or America? It's not difficult nowadays.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM

or even offenD. Although I am sure I would like to offen Lizzie

Hang on, Dave lad, when you are in a hole, stop digging.

Lizzie, if you are more at home in the US then go:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:05 PM

and Bryan, you are still not talking to me! Is this the end of a beautiful relationship?

;D (eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:44 PM

"Lizzie, if you are more at home in the US then go:-)"

Didn't say that...I meant I feel far more at home with the kinder, warmer, more laid back natures of the American and Canadian posters in here.

I've endured more unpleasantness from some within the English folk world, than I ever believed possible. Once, I loved the music, but there is a group of people within it who have managed to destroy that.   Trust me, if they can manage to turn me off English folk music, then they can turn off many more.

It's part of why your folk clubs are on their knees, because they are *your* folk clubs, not mine, because I am outside 'the magic circle', as I happen to like the wrong kind of music, apparently, and...even worse than that, I like musicians who call themselves singer songwriters....the arch enemy, so it appears, of those within, imo, the narrow minded traditional world, who only want to listen and discuss the music of 'the traditional singers' who were...er...either singer songwriters themselves, or who sang the songs of er...other singer songwriters of their time.



From Nick:

"I don't think so. I'll give you an example. You stand at a distance watching a group of people who you don't know thoroughly enjoy a discussion for some time. You walk up to them and say 'I'm very befuddled as to why you have had this conversation for so long' especially as those other people over the other side of the room aren't having the same conversation. And then you say 'I've got it now it's because those people over there are much nicer than you!'

I'd reckon people would probably tell you to fuck off. But that's just me I don't have manners."

Oh, they told me to **** off without me ever having to say one word to them, Nick. All I did was like 'the wrong kind of music' and er..that was it...So I'm very used to the expletives and er 'good manners' (??)of some of those within the English folk world.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:23 PM

fact is, its a tricky old business....

basically in the English folkscene we've all been treated like shit at one time or another.

theres a lot of intolerance around. not nearly so much as there used to be.

In the 1960's people would turn up to a folk concert and think it was all going to be simon and garfunkel and bob dylan and get fred Jordan and be pissed off.

In the 1970's people would jeer at you if you did a ramblin Jack Eliot song - I was jeered at at at preston folk club. Some bastard shouted - roll off buddy roll off!

this is all stuff I have witnessed. Its like all these people who pontificate about northern Ireland, if you haven't been there and been treated like shit - you don't understand. and that's why this thread is so many metres long.

theres so much bitterness in the English situation. So much name calling, dismissiveness of huge talents, standing on ground that isn't worth taking. and lets face it so much of our class system.

So many middle class types setting the agenda. its not a question of education. Its a question of pygmies in the wrong jobs at the BBC, the media, and on festival committees. bloody jokes - if only it were funny. An entire artform derailed by boring little assholes trying to work gigs up for themselves when they couldn't fill a bloody phonebox with people who want to see them and their dubious work.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:06 AM

An entire artform derailed by boring little assholes trying to work gigs up for themselves when they couldn't fill a bloody phonebox with people who want to see them and their dubious work.

You should have been at Chorlton the other night, Al. 21 acts, a packed room and hardly a traditional number in sight. (To be more precise, it was a three-way split between traditional, original and cover versions.) Whatever the folk scene in south Manchester is suffering from, purism isn't it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

To imply that a fellow member of an internet forum aught to "F**ck Off" for making a general observation regarding a *publicly viewable onlist debate* such as this, is not great to see.

Even though there may only be a small handful of *primary debaters* actively engaged in the discussion, this thread isn't in any way comparable to a *private conversation*. We're all in the room together here watching and listening, and ocassionally piping up.

Unsolicited comments about the way other people choose to conduct their *genuinely private* conversations, do of course rightfully deserve a "F**ck Off, this is none of your business". But this isn't a private discussion.

This is merely a comment regarding netiquette, which another poster has also gently raised by refreshing a thread on the matter. Because onlist everyone gets to have their say, whether others would wish to hear it or not. Even nobodies and know-nothings like me...

Apologies for taking the thread off-topic, but hey, this thread is nearly at the big 1000! And every little 'heaping upon the pile' helps... ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:02 AM

I think we are in danger of becming derailed by a 'what is folk' and 'what is wrong in folk' discussion.

Al - perfect example of bad manners from the audience but, to be fair, did you do your homework at the Preston club? Don't get me wrong, no-one should be subjected to jeers but maybe you were just playing the wrong club for your music at the time. I think I said earlier that 'folk' is far to wide a definition and one man's meat etc.

Lizzie. Again - wrong place, wrong time. Maybe you are better off without the type of people that you don't get along with. But please don't tar all folk clubs with the same brush because of your bad experience. As to -

It's part of why your folk clubs are on their knees, because they are *your* folk clubs, not mine, because I am outside 'the magic circle'

Well, firstly, our folk clubs are not on their kness. You have three prime examples of ones thriving on this thread. The Lewes Arms, Swinton and Chorlton. Plus loads of others mentioned both here and elsewhere. If you are intimating that *yours* would do better then fine - Open one an run it. The more the merrier.

But don't answer here please. Different topic - different thread if you don't mind.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Yes, but there's something going on here. I truly don't see the Canadian and US posters getting their knickers in a twist about it all, in the same way that the English do, and I'd love to know why, that's all.
Lizzie,have you come across Gargoyle yet?,the fact is there are rude people of every nationality.
the americans and Canadians just get worked up about diferent things,Walabouts verse,seems to get a few of them riled.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Perhaps it's time we said what this argument is really about.
It has nothing whatever to do with elitism or exclusion or banning or auditions – the question seems to be, to me at least, 'TO DUMB DOWN OR NOT TO DUMB DOWN'.
Far from there being a glass ceiling as has been suggested, this is about removing the tissue-thin floor that stands between folk singing being a creative activity and an uncoordinated nervous, tic. It's about what somebody suggested way up the thread ages ago:
"This is FOLK music we are talking about. FOLK sing/play folk music there are no standards, that's the fun of it".
In the light of the existing situation on the folk scene the idea that you throw the doors open to singers incapable of singing is a bloody nonsense that could easily have come from the pen of Lewis Carroll or Edward Lear.
I dropped out of the club scene when most of the ones I visited I found to be joyless, talentless, uninspiring and uninspired emporiums where what was served up on your plate bore no relation to what appeared on the menu. Anything I have witnessed or been involved in since (particularly threads like this) and information I have gleaned from friends who, in some cases, I have known and worked with for decades and whose opinions I trust, have only served to convince me that very little has changed, and that little certainly has not been for the better. Whenever somebody recommends something on Youtube I almost invariably come away thinking 'what was that all about?' or 'are they really putting up with that?' or – 'that guitar was out of tune' or 'what happened to that tune?' or, 'what happened to all the talent we used to have?' or most of all 'what's that got to do with folk music?'.
Over the last ten-fifteen years the clubs have shrunk to something like a quarter of their number and, judging by stray comments I pick up here and elsewhere and discussions with friends who are still involved, the audiences for the remaining ones have dwindled to anorexic proportions (before anybody says it – yes, it is fair to ask 'where have all the audiences and clubs gone over that period?').
And the solution being offered?
Not, 'lets get our act together and improve what we're doing', nothing so time, effort, imagination and talent consuming. Rather, the panacea being offered is, 'lets go and find some singers who can't sing and get them to practice in front of our (paying or otherwise) audiences – that should do the trick'.
I have no doubt that there are clubs who are successful and dedicated to presenting folk music at its best, but, they seem so few and far-between that, whenever I come across one my instinct is to erect a hide and observe it, because of the rare species they have become. I hesitate to mention The Lewes Arms in case Bryan mistakes this for a discussion on their policy, except to remind him that it was he who introduced his club and its committee and policy to the thread – hence, putting them in the firing line.
The irony of all this is that in these islands we have folk song traditions to be proud of, covering every aspect of human existence, emotion and experience and as relevant, moving and entertaining to day as they ever were (anybody who disagrees with this, run it up the flag and see who salutes). Rather than those traditions being cherished and respected, they are treated like shit.
Our songs range from simple ones which can be belted out in full voice by a roomful of people, to beautifully intricate compositions which lend themselves to delicate and skilful ornamentation and demand great dedication in order to be made to fully work.
The jewels in the crown of our tradition, the classic ballads, described variously as 'the high-watermark of our tradition by MacColl) and 'The Muckle Sangs' (The Great Songs) by Hamish Henderson are often treated with contempt – mention them on this forum and you are bound to get squeals of "too-long" or "boring dirges" from our resident goldfish-concentration-spans. Not so long ago on another thread somebody produced an earth-shattering solution for how to deal with long songs and ballads by suggesting that a practical maximum length for a song should be something like 3 minutes (not sure of the exact figure, but I can check) thereby, with a couple of deft taps of digit to keyboard, banishing most of the ballad repertoire from the clubs.      
For crying out loud, let's recognise what we've got and try to improve it, not dumb it down; dumbing down gives us Russell Brand and Jonathan Woss, not the singers we need to keep the songs alive, and to create new ones using the folk styles as a template.
There you go – let's see if that takes us to a thousand!
Jim Carroll

PS Richard – if sniping from the sidelines helps get the dirty water off your chest, please feel free, but, judging by the response, I'm afraid you're not making your point - keep trying though, it'll come!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:48 AM

Sleepy Rosie - I agree 100% - it's a shame we have lost all the original posters who have either been bored or intimidated out of the thread

I am also surprised to see the degree to which some posters seem (remember that word before you have a go at me as well)to be trying to lay down the law for how all folk clubs should be run

to paraphrase David - if you want one run differently to the ones that exist, start your own or indeed go to an existing one and see if it is open to your influence

the sad thing is that the Lewes Arms, Swinton Folk Club and Chorlton Folk Club have for me been tarnished by association with this thread - the detail of what people have said has been lost, I couldn't now tell you which one has which policy and I for one would steer clear of all three - far too much politics for an enjoyable night out

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM

I am also surprised to see the degree to which some posters seem (remember that word before you have a go at me as well)to be trying to lay down the law for how all folk clubs should be run

All I did was respond to someone who suggested we should

"wipe the slate clean, ignore what has been written to date, and each one to set down independently without reference to others what they would like to see in Folk Clubs"

Rafflesbear, I think it was.

I for one would steer clear of all three - far too much politics for an enjoyable night out

Good grief. Can I place it on record that

- I do not represent Chorlton FC in any way, shape or form
- my own STRONG PREFERENCES are just that
and
- Chorlton FC's policy, judging from my years as a regular, is to put on anyone and everyone who puts their name down

The resulting mixed bag isn't to everyone's taste, but it's certainly not characterised by an excess of politics.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:15 AM

Rafflesbear:
the sad thing is that the Lewes Arms, Swinton Folk Club and Chorlton Folk Club have for me been tarnished by association with this thread - the detail of what people have said has been lost, I couldn't now tell you which one has which policy and I for one would steer clear of all three - far too much politics for an enjoyable night out

Nay lad - politics is for the Mudcat; music is for the clubs. The Lewes Arms is a great club - friendly, welcoming and politics-free. And if ever I get near the Swinton and Chorlton clubs, I'd love to try them out. Let's not confuse the heated and convoluted arguments here with the real music that's made in these places. That would be a shame.

Note the use of the semi-colon above, by the way. There's class for you...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:29 AM

Pip - I remember now - you were the only one to do so although I believe one other poster kind of tried. To be honest you were far from my mind when I wrote the lay down the law bit

It goes to show that in 940 odd posts, most of them far longer than in other threads, you need a good memory to keep track of exactly what is what and who is who if you don't know them - I note what you say and thanks for the clarification

the one point where I disagree with Sleepy Rosie is that reaching 1000 posts in this thread will be anything other than a very sad landmark

completely irrelevent and opportunistic plug for Norcsalordie
website

all the best RB

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:47 AM

Spot on, Will. The other thing is, Rafflesbear, I have stated quite categoricaly that Swinton have NO policy. Neither do we have a comittee or any internal politics. I can't speak for Chrlton or the Lewes Arms but our club is purely for music and enjoyment. We confine the arguments to Mudcat:-)

Jim, I am coming round more and more. I started off thinking that there is a need for people of no real talent to 'have a go'. But I am starting to think - why should it be in folk clubs? What can we do for them instead? If we are to raise the bar and get clubs to a standard that everyone can enjoy can we provie an alternative for the 'non improvers'

This is why I keep asking the question, which Bryan is so steadfastly ignoring (Nice to know I have that kind of power btw:-) ) What do we do with the non-impovers? Is there something we can to for those who just want to sing without improving, while ensuring we keep standards up?

And I think we are now in the section 20 - 1000 pots just around teh corner:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:53 AM

Lizzie, you have a personal axe to grind. Why bring it to this thread, apart from the fact that you see anyone who enjoys traditional music as the enemy?

Out of interest, which folk clubs have you actually visited? I'd be willing to hazard a guess you've been to maybe one club, one time, if that. Folk is a broad church. You don't like clubs? fine - there are lots of other ways to enjoy the music: diverse venues, festivals, etc. Why come in having a pop at people who put their life and soul, often at their own expense, into creating something for other people to enjoy, just to score points?

For the record, you can listen to whomever you like. It's when you obsessively shove your own musical taste down other people's throats on thread after thread that they become impatient with you. There is no vendetta against you or the artists you enjoy, except in your head.



Back OT:

"It has nothing whatever to do with elitism or exclusion or banning or auditions – the question seems to be, to me at least, 'TO DUMB DOWN OR NOT TO DUMB DOWN'."

I agree, Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:29 AM

First of all, thank you to Rosie, for her kind words, earlier on.

And if I could just re-iterate, I asked why the Canadians and Americans seem able to just turn up and play, welcome all, and 'get on with it', whilst the English have a thread of near on 1,000 posts discussing 'folk club manners'. It's intriguing, that's all, particularly from a world that I, personally, have found to be so deeply hostile.

'Ruth' - I am so disinterested in what you say to me these days, or about me, that I can't even be bothered to respond. You apparently know *far* more about my life than I do, and you are always ready to paint the blackest picture to everyone about me, so please....paint away. It no longer concerns me.


David, with all due respect, if I leave this thread, then I will do so by my own volition, not because you have told me to not reply. I have had my right of reply, my freedom of speech, taken away by those in your world, none of you have the right to tell me what to do any longer. As it happens, I now choose to leave this thread, so you can breathe easy again.

I very rarely come into these threads any longer, because they hold no interest for me anymore, for I am done with a pedantic, excluding, controlling, dictatorial world..and the fact that Sidmouth folk week now has an artistic director who said openly on the BBC board that she'd rather have pins stuck in her eyes than listen to the music of Show of Hands, shows me how far down the road of hypocrisy Sidmouth folk week has gone. To be honest, they lost my vote when Gordon left, because that man put all he had into saving Sidmouth, and he was treated very badly by those in the very world whose major festival he saved, by choosing to take a huge gamble and invest tens of thousands of pounds of his own money into it, to save it for all. He gave all he had for Sidmouth.

You want good manners? Then you should show them to people who love 'your' music.

You want folk clubs filled? Then you should realise that this is 'our' music, not 'yours'

You want me to stop.

I grant you that wish.

It is 'your' world.

Keep it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:45 AM

DeG:

If we are to raise the bar and get clubs to a standard that everyone can enjoy can we provie an alternative for the 'non improvers'

I think that is the big question. I'm starting to think you can't be neutral towards people who want to perform despite not knowing the material, not being able to hold a tune etc - if you're not discouraging this attitude you're encouraging it. It sounds as if Bryan's club discourages it so effectively that he never sees it at all. I wonder what their secret is?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

T

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:02 AM

Time to bail out before someone gets hurt, I think.

Jim, if you can ask me some questions that don't start from the assumption that I am actively supporting crap standards I might try and answer them.

P.S.
Like the semi-colon, Will, but then you went and spoiled it by starting a sentence with "And". Tut, tut, tut.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:04 AM

Running workshops and suggesting singers attend ,could help,it can be done tactfully.
but the singers have to be encouraged go,you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
Bryans Lewes club has the right idea by running workshops.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:13 AM

Oh PLEEEEZE. Let me go.

We don't "discourage" anybody, Pip. That's the point. We don't tell people "You aren't good enough. Go away and don't come back until you cam prove you've put in the necessary work." If that's the sort of club you want, get Anne Robinson to run it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:15 AM

Pip Radish:
It sounds as if Bryan's club discourages it so effectively that he never sees it at all. I wonder what their secret is?

I won't speak for Bryan - he's perfectly capable of doing that himself - but I have been to, and performed at the club as a 1-song floorspotter, and here's my purely personal opinion.

The club is home to a number of talented residents, of whom I've seen quite a few elsewhere. It has a strong swing towards traditional music but is hospitable to odds-and-sods like me who don't, on the whole, play that kind of music. It runs a very active and well-publicised series of workshops and tunes sessions. It has a reputation, I believe, in the area for excellence - as does its sister club (brother?) the Royal Oak. I think any aspiring singer who wanted to perform there would be aware of that excellence - and would make the effort to give as much as they could. And they would be welcomed for it.

As I said earlier, part of sensible thinking about whether to make an appearance at a club for the first time is to go there, case the joint, and think how you might fit in. Perhaps this works. People CAN be self-regulating, though it's apparent from the experience of other people here, that they often aren't.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Do you thik she is really gone? Can we come out from behind the curtains and carry on discussing what the thread is supposed to be about? I doubt it myself but we can only try:-)

There was one bit in there warrants discussion I suppose -

You want folk clubs filled? Then you should realise that this is 'our' music, not 'yours'

Sad as it is, Lizzie, in a folk club that I run I do try to please as many people as I can but, at the end of the day, it is for my benefit as well. In the words of Ricky Nelson - You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself. If you find yourself out of step with every folk club you have been to then surely that should tell you something shouln't it?:-)

I do not want to fill our folk club any further - We don't have the room! 40 people is a lot in a room the size we have and it may come back to manners. We have discused the manners of the audience and the artists. What about the responsibility of the organisers? Would it be fair to cram an extra 10 people in our room? I suspect not. Would it be fair to have only the music that the Lizzies of this world like? Again I suspect not. If people want pop they can see it anywhere. If they want folk surely it is the responsibility of the organiser, and simple courtesy, to provide what the club is advertising?


Secondly (and more importantly of course!) - To Pip's comments. I think you are right Pip. It just seems a bitter pill to swallow, particularly for the people who may end up with no outlet for their 'talents', however dubious. I supose there is always Karaoke:-D

Maybe you could ask Bryan what the secret is, seing as he will not tell me!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:23 AM

Thanks Will. Sorry about the "And" comment. Only joking.

Your floorspot was excellent; I wish you'd come more often. (See, I can do semi-colons too.)

Neither sister nor brother to the Royal Oak, just friendly neighbours both doing our best for the music.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:32 AM

Bryan:
Like the semi-colon, Will, but then you went and spoiled it by starting a sentence with "And". Tut, tut, tut.

Ah - now, we had a talk at work some years from the president of the Society for the Promotion of Better English (or some such body - can't remember the actual name), where two or three ancient myths were exploded.

One was starting a sentence with "And" - perfectly acceptable these days and an outmoded carryover from pre-war Primary school language teaching.

Another was the myth that a preposition is something you cannot end a sentence with.

A third was the splitting of infinitives - "To boldly go" is actually OK.

All is dependent on context. I rest my case and allow this thread to creep inexorably away to some other place.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:36 AM

Ah well, Will, I'm just an old traddy. You're so much more in tune with modern thinking than what I am.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:52 AM

Come on guys! Only 37 to go:-)

Can we give the spectacularly talentless performer any sort of outlet while removing them from the mainstream of folk?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM

What it's all about as far as I'm concerned.
PRIVATE INTERVIEW:
"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
Ewan MacColl 1979

FINAL STATEMENT OF THE SONG CARRIERS SERIES.
"Well, there they are; the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making; some were undoubtedly born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement; others are as brash as a cup-final crowd.
They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets of the plough-stilts and the hand-loom.
They are tender, harsh, passionate, ironical, simple, profound; as varied indeed as the landscape of this island.
We are all indebted to the Harry Coxs and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie McDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our peoples' songs across the centuries."
Ewan MacColl

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:24 PM

Thanks Jim.
it seems a reasonable assumption,that if singers/musicians go to workshops they will improve.
the club Bryan Creer is involved with runs workshops,many folk festivals run workshops[not sure if there are many singing workshops].
I think that this is where folk clubs can really play an important part in helping to raise standards.
folkclubs are also social clubs,where people often know one another, where hopefully people dont mind constructive criticism,it seems a good idea to me to employ a guest to do a gig and also help run a workshop,or for the residents to run a workshop before the club.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

'Al - perfect example of bad manners from the audience but, to be fair, did you do your homework at the Preston club? Don't get me wrong, no-one should be subjected to jeers but maybe you were just playing the wrong club for your music at the time. I think I said earlier that 'folk' is far to wide a definition and one man's meat etc.'

I was a young guy at the time. I could piss rings round most of the people in that room as a musician. I was totally into Woody Guthrie at the time.

Why, because he wrote about the world in front of him. There was him and Ewan. Everyone else thought the band Played Waltzing matilda was pleasingly modern. It was all right to talk about the first world war - ladies dancing at Whitsun etc. but not the world we lived in.

And that's what I wanted to do. Write about the shit I was going through as a young teacher in an inner city school.

I thought where I was, was a legitimate place to be. I still do. they should have respected it. And I sang in tune and knew the words. But i was treated like the village idiot.

some idiot singing The Mole catcher (unaccompanied natch) from an exercise book, that was de rigeur absolutely tootsie poo.

What has killed this movement stone dead is the attitude - my kind of music, right or wrong; in tune or out; words and tune remembered or totally forgotten; boring or utterly monotonous; tuneful or tuneless.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:09 AM

WLD,
I half agree with what you are saying.
The only experience I have of your song-writing is in the pages of New City Songster - which impressed me as being a good song, and knowing Peggy as I do, would not have been included if it were not (though - not being able to read music, I have problems of fully judging a song without hearing it sung).
There were - and still are prime examples of tight-arsed attitudes to what should go in clubs - from ALL sides of the divide, ranging from the banning (at one time) of accompaniment, the singing of contemporary/political/non-British/American... whatever songs, through to claims I have heard that songs are 'too long' or that an evening of 'just folk songs' at a folk club is "boring" (a regular, and completely off-the-wall complaint on Mudcat as far as I'm concerned - what else would you expect at a folk club - Lieder?).
Every club is entitled to its own policy and to adhere to that policy to whatever degree they choose, just as everybody who is a potential audience member is entitled to express an opinion of what happens at that club, no matter what their level of involvement and understanding. For me, as long as what goes on at a club bears some resemblance to what it claims to be - no problem; in other words, as long as a 'folk' club puts on something which can be claimed to be 'folk' music (or folk-music based) I, or anybody has no reason to demand their money back or write to the ombudsman. It is when this doesn't happen that the problems arise.
Whether we like it or not, clubs that give themselves a designation are set up to promote "my kind of music", right or wrong does not come into it. I can see no justification in complaining that a folk club only puts on folk music, any more than I would in protesting that our local chamber orchestra doesn't include Dave Brubeck or Neil Simon compositions in their repertoire. Neither fit their job description (unless you are arguing that it is wrong to label music 'classical', 'jazz', 'folk', 'hip-hop', 'garage', whatever).
What has killed this music isn't that the clubs 'do what it says on the tin', but the opposite - all too often they don't and what they do present, is performed badly.
Your 'Molecatcher' guy was, as far as I'm concerned, wrong, not for singing Molecatcher, but for having to read it from a book - though there are others on this thread who might disagree with this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

Aye - fair enough, Al. Like I said earlier he was bang out of order but I am not sure what the point is, other than to serve as reminder about manners. What I am about to ad probably belongs on another thread but there are people like that in all walks of life. You were treated badly for singing modern songs in a folk club. Ever tried singing an unaccompanied folk song at an open mic evening? I have and was treated with similar disdain. Folk clubs are not the sole hunting ground of the lesser spotted dick-head unfortunately.

As to trad vs modern. I don't see it as contest. There are more contemporary singer songwriters about than trad singers, I think. I can name at least a half dozen singer songwriters that have been on at our club and only two trad acts - and you know one of them very well as well. Most of our booked guests however do a splendid mixture of trad and contemporary. I don't think many people have any complaints about the ammount of choice.

Cheers

DeG
PS - Off to the Brimmo thread - see you there:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Excellent quotes from Ewan MacColl, Jim. Spot on.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM

Still pondering what I can do about my resident non-improvers though. Without hurting their feelings. Any ideas?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

Thank you Bryan.
Dave:
Why not try a planned feature evening which include readings and involve them that way - it worked for us on a number of occasions and eventually turned out some good singers eventually.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM

Not sure what you mean, Jim. Readings as in Poetry for instance? Trouble is, with the people I am refering to, they have already gotten used to the idea that they can perform whatever they like. One in particular we had to physicaly restrict from joining in with someone else. Honest!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:09 AM

To catch up with Lizzie's post of some distance back, I speculate that the reason Americans don't appear to have this problem is perhaps that they have a culture which implicitly discourages people from trying to perform until they have mastered the basics. This was certainly the culture in the UK when I started doing floor spots, and I would have been embarrassed to have got up without being properly prepared (that's not to say I didn't make plenty of mistakes!).

How do you deal with persistently poor singers? It's got to be a judgement for the organiser, it will depend on the club, and on the singer. Some poor singers are nevertheless viewed with affection by other club members, whereas others are just an ordeal to listen to. The organiser has to be sensitive to his audience, and decide whether to tolerate the poor performer, or give them only occasional spots on evenings where it won't give a poor impression of the club (ie not on major guest nights). If poor standards of performance seem to be discouraging audiences then the organiser may have to say, sorry, you're not good enough. It may not be easy to tell someone that, but that's something they'll both have to come to terms with.

No one has a right to sing, not even at a folk club. The discretion must always lie with the organiser - they're the one taking the financial risk. They decide the club policy - even if the policy is that there is no policy!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:19 AM

GUEST,Howard Jones

No one has a right to sing,

Open to dispute I would have thought. Possibly a whole new thread topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:53 PM

I guess you meant that no-one has the automatic right to sing at a folk club, did you Howard? (Except the 'owner' of the club of course!) The meaning seemed reasonably clear to me but you do have to be careful here. Things do have a way of getting distorted;-)

Anyhow, if I have read it correctly you are confirming my views, and those of a few others here, that the organiser has the right to say no. I would add that in certain cases they would be within their rights to refuse admission. Serial crisp munchers and phone users beware:-)

A good synopsis of how to deal with difficult ones as well. Pretty much what I have done and advocated in the past. If anyone does have a valid alternative I would like to hear it though. Just a thought - for those who know the White Lion (Pip, Spleen and Nick please take note:-) ) How about having two types of singers nights. One in the bar, where we need to ensure good quality for the public, an 'open mic' perhaps. The other one in the club room where 'anything goes'. That way we would at least be showing people that if they do improve they can 'come out'. Not sure what other problems that may cause though. Ideas?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

Well I thought that I'd be a bit more interventionist last night with three people who I thought might appreciate it. I'm not sure that any of them did. I perhaps need to be a little careful what I say as I'm aware from last night that a number of people who were there last night have been following this thread.

Two of them would improve enormously if they learned to pitch their songs better. One sang a song that I reckon would have worked better about a third (at least) up - the bottom notes grate along the bottom of his range (or below it?) and blend into one. Interesting look he gave me when I suggested it to him. The second has difficulty knowing where to pitch a song so picks it out at random, so sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. We both sing 'This Love Will Carry' by Dougie MacLean so we worked out where he could sing it and tried it and it's easier and better. I reckon he thinks I come from another planet too.

The third is an interesting one. He can play the guitar reasonably well and he can sing in tune. He has picked up a strange thing rhythmically though which goes all over the place making him almost impossible to play with (not the reason he does it by the way for those !) and makes listening hard. Added to this are that he has a strange (country and western led?) swoop in his vocals and playing which is quite odd but presumably developed from listening to someone though I know not who. Added to this he tends to rewrite the tunes of songs to something that is not very recognisable - and usually rather good songs. (Mr Punch and Judy Man has a perfectly tune already that really doesn't need changing and there are others).
So I thought I'd take the chance to chat to him about it. I'm not sure that my intervention was welcomed or appreciated and again I got that curious look from him and his partner that suggested I was from somewhere the other side of the asteroid belt.

Limited success on that.

But on the other side of the coin - Tim and his wife from Grimsby came and it's fantastic to see how far he has come over the time I've known him and I know we - along with various Lincolnshire clubs have hopefully been supportive and encouraging to him. He was then off to play at a few spots over the next few days in the north east where I'm sure he will get a good reception.
The other was someone who has now come and played the piano for the second time who has been coming and listening for a LONG time but never performed anything. And obviously been practicing. I reckon she'll sing before long too.

But a thought did strike me which I might start up another thread on because it's not about manners at all.

WHO SHOULD JUDGE? I'm reasonably musical but I don't think I am really qualified to help others that much. Who should do it and what position should they hold to be able to do it? What gives them the right to do it?

I also came across another thing last night which I will start another thread on which is about the inevitability of change and the problems it brings in its wake.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

Well done Nick! At least you are doing something to help. I think the 'who should judge?' question may have a place here. In my opinion the only one who can judge what goes on at their club is the organiser. Only they know exactly what they have in mind. They (usualy) fund it to some extent and then give their own time for free. If the club organiser(s) cannot say who sings there for whatever reason then who can?

It should of course be tempered with a modicum of common sense - I for one would not expect in a million years that everyone would have the same tastes as me for instance and I do support artists who are not on my top ten list, but who are on other peoples.

I do feel I should be able to determine the standard though.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:45 AM

So - next question - how do I apply those standards?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:22 AM

DeG:
So - next question - how do I apply those standards?

David - I assume that, at your club, you have a mixture of guest nights and come-all-ye nights? You can use the come-all-ye as a proving ground to assess who can, and who can't perform reasonably. When you're putting together your running order for a guest night, then you can reasonably restrict the number of floor singers - and you make the choice as to who performs and who doesn't. You're the organiser - you run the club as you want to - it's your choice and you pick the most suitable fillers for the evening. If those that don't ever get picked, or rarely get picked, want to know why - then there's an opportunity to explain. Not easy, by the way, as Nick has demonstrated!

I'm popping up to Cheshire for a few days next week to see an old friend from long ago perform as the guest at a club. At his suggestion, I telephoned the organiser to see if there might be a chance of a floor spot that evening. The organiser's response was quite clear: it's a guest night - I can't promise - depends who turns up - bring your guitar - let's see what happens on the night. Perfectly straightforward as far as I'm concerned as he doesn't know me from Adam. We had a long and cordial chat for about 20 minutes on the trials and tribulations of running a club, etc., etc.

Don't you wish, sometimes, that some people who perform in clubs - or anywhere else, for that matter - were more self-critical? I made a huge gaffe some time ago at a Sussex club (the one where most of the performers pop their words and chords on a music stand). One performer played a very hesitant but promising version of the guitar instrumental "Buck Dancer's Dream". Full marks for trying, thought I. In the interval I was speaking to him and said something like, "Nice version of Buck Dancer's Dream - nearly there, eh?" That was a real 'I'll get me coat' moment, I can tell you! Turned out he thought it was perfectly played, and it also turned out that he ran another folk club elsewhere... The old boy wasn't best pleased, I can tell you - no self-critical faculty whatsoever. [Exit WF, stage left, pursued by a bear...]

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

DeG re non improvers      Do a Fylde FF 'worst singer' spot and see if they can establish their level.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

Thanks Will and Aeola (is that an accordian?)

As to the first point, it is pretty much how we have done things for many years. Trouble is the ones who are not improving seem to be quite content with just performing on a singers night. Which is why I need to let anyone new to the club during a 'come all ye' know that there may be one or two 'interesting' acts on;-) By doing this though am I guilty of, as Jim calls it, promoting crap standards? Should I, maybe, see if I can get the ones in question to only perform between 7:30 and 8:30 when no-one else is there? I really don't know:-( Since Bryan does not seem to be answering me and seeing you are familiar with both the Lewes Arms and places where there are 'non-improvers' can you tell me how come bad performers do not attend the Lewes Arms?

Aeola - We did run a 'worse singer' contest in the early years oddly enough! It was always won by professionals who REALY know how to make a pigs ear of things when they want to:-) Maybe we should resurrect it in another form?

Keep 'em coming folks. Not many to top the 1000:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:15 PM

Will,
Fiddle player extaordinaire Kevin Burke used to tell a story of when he first started playing in London nearly forty years ago.
He was taught a rather difficult tune by an elderly fiddle player and he worked at till he finally mastered it. Every time they met, the old man asked him to play it, which rather pleased him, but it happened so often that one night Kevin asked him why he always requested it.
"You'll play it till you get the ******* thing right", was the reply.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

Snail,I am pretty tolerant,about other singers,but I came across someone doing a version of the Holly and the Ivy,they were so awful,I dont think you would have given them a spot either,out of tune with themselves,expressionless,out of tune with their instrument.
this person doesnt take on board any advice,and had the cheek to criticise me for playing harmony on the concertina,and not playing melody only.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:03 PM

Only one, Dick? A while ago you were talking about "large numbers of extremely bad singers" and offering to send them to me, and Silas said he could "send all the shite your way". I hardly think one poor performance of the Holly and the Ivy is going to bring the entire UK folk club circuit to its knees.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Dear DeG and others discussing 'ability' of performers. Would you to read and reply to my thread 'Catters Critical Claws'. 'Cos I feel it's tangentially but significantly relevent to your discussion, and indeed has in no small part been inspired by witnessing it (amogst other threads I've posted)!
Cheers, Sleepy Rosie

PS are there to be fireworks and tearfull celebrations when this thread finally hits its millenial post? Wouldn't want to miss it! ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM

Snail,your wish is my command,how many do you want,and how much do you pay.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:17 PM

how come bad performers do not attend the Lewes Arms

There's a question for the ages. The last time I suggested that bad performers must be so effectively discouraged from attending that they never turn up at all, Bryan objected strongly:

We don't "discourage" anybody, Pip. That's the point. We don't tell people "You aren't good enough. Go away and don't come back until you cam prove you've put in the necessary work.

All I can say to that is that it depends what 'discourage' means. There's a regular Irish tune session at a pub near me; massive thing, twenty or thirty players in perfect time, reeling off tunes by the yard. I know some of the tunes they do, more or less, pretty much, but I've never sat in with them; in fact the thought of sitting in with them makes me go hot and cold all over. Nobody's told me I'm not good enough for that session - in that sense (the sense Bryan's objecting to) nobody's discouraged me. I've still been discouraged, by the sheer quality of the playing - and I suspect that a lot of the 'non-improvers' we've been talking about would be similarly discouraged if they turned up at the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

Snail ,I didnt say he would,but would you let him sing at your folk club week after week,please answer?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:49 PM

>>Snail,your wish is my command,how many do you want,and how much do you pay.

A little incongruous. If you know so many, Dick, why didn't you do something about it rather than asking Bryan to sort out a problem he hasn't got? Closest to flaming I get.

My grandmother when she got quite old used to drive her Morris Minor (the one with the dull metallic thud when you hit the body work) around South Woodford and accidents used to happen all around her. She was never involved in an accident. If there had been such a thing in the 70's and 80's she would probably have posted to threads on forums entitled 'Why are people such bad drivers?'

>>There's a regular Irish tune session at a pub near me; massive thing, twenty or thirty players in perfect time, reeling off tunes by the yard. I know some of the tunes they do, more or less, pretty much, but I've never sat in with them; in fact the thought of sitting in with them makes me go hot and cold all over. Nobody's told me I'm not good enough for that session - in that sense (the sense Bryan's objecting to) nobody's discouraged me. I've still been discouraged, by the sheer quality of the playing - and I suspect that a lot of the 'non-improvers' we've been talking about would be similarly discouraged if they turned up at the Lewes Arms.

20 or 30 people rarely play in perfect time. The impression is that they do. The nature of that big a session is that you can get involved with no worry that you could ever spoil anything. I'm off to a local session tonight on a much smaller scale. They won't hear me if I play quietly and they will if I play loudly. I'd get involved if it's that many people because you can't go wrong. The essence of a session is that people join in. Not like a folk club at all.

Most Irish tunes have very few chords. And most Irish tunes will work with you droning on the root note (if you have a guitar for instance). So if it's the Irish Washer Woman in D drop your bottom string to D and just play in time on the D note. There are a lot of people who would think you are a very creative player and applaud the fact that you aren't bringing in any fancy stuff. And it works of course :)

If you want to be really flash start from the root note of the tune and play an octave backwards against the tune and you won't be far off

Once your in it's easy and you have enough sense to know when to play and when not

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

DeG: "can you tell me how come bad performers do not attend the Lewes Arms?"

Well, as I wrote on 19th Nov, I think this plays a large part:

It has a reputation, I believe, in the area for excellence - as does its sister club (brother?) the Royal Oak. I think any aspiring singer who wanted to perform there would be aware of that excellence - and would make the effort to give as much as they could. And they would be welcomed for it.

There's a huge amount of DIY music in various places in this part of Sussex, and there's no question (IMHO) that the clubs at the Lewes Arms and the Royal Oak have a reputation for excellence and dedication - which has an effect on would-be performers. Just my humble opinion...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:55 PM

Nick ,it was a joke.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

Ahhhhh - Thanks Will, I didn't notice that earlier post so apologies for the re-hash.

So, basicaly, the reputation for excellence, would effectively discourage poor performers? Just as Pip's session discourages him? So, what we need to do is get a reputation for excellence! Easy - I'll just stop performing:-) At last, a bit of sense!

I think then that we have something all can agree on - Good music begats more of the same. Let standards slide an it is indeed a sloppery slope. Can I then offer a bit of advice to the organisers of all those excellent clubs out there, Including Bryan (you don't have to take notice but you have been warned!) When you do eventualy get someone with the brass neck to turn in week after week of crap, as may eventualy happen, nip it in the bud. Do as Jim suggests and make them go away until they ae better.

We didn't and we are now stuck with a reputation that anyone can perform whatever rubbish they like. Admitedly it is a tiny percentage but once it is there it is like herpes. It only affects a tiny little bit of you but it is bloody annoying and you can't get rid!

Rosie - on my way now. Did you get the CD's BTW?

Nearly there...

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:16 PM

DeG - you could, of course, be quite radical (and quite possibly unpopular) and slowly starve the crap performers of the chance to play - i.e. give the better performers more in any spot. And make it clear why you're doing that.

However, perhaps a more positive way would be to do a tour of the local clubs, seek out the better performers and invite them to perform at yours - shame the poor ones who would then be eased away...

Alternatively, if you're at your wits end, why not just say to someone, "You're shite - piss off!" [I'll get me coat...]. :-) Will

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:27 PM

It was the same joke you posted further up the thread Dick and I recognised it as such the first time. I thought you might be serious this time as noone repeats a joke

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM

Hehehe - I could, Will, but to honest with only a couple performers out of dozens of regulars I wonder somethimes if it worth upsetting anyone. After a particularly bad perfomance, I usualy think yes it probably is, but it is then made up for the rest of the artists. It's just bloody annoying that sods law says that when North West Arts comes in, contemplating a £2 Million funding offer, there will be someone crap on!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

It's very bad form to keep posting stuff just to hit the 1000. So I will not.

What do you think of people that fart in folk clubs? Or on Mudcat thread come to that...

:D eG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:07 PM

I like repeating jokes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tyke
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

Sad

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tyke
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

sad

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

the way the holly and the ivy is performed by this guy, somehow I dont think Bryan would let him sing regularly.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:59 PM

Wooooooo Hoooooo

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM

He would, Dick - Apparantly Bryan wold let this bloke on.

It is not representative of the Lewes Arms but Mr Creer would be quite happy with anyone

Apart from me of course...

:DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:05 PM

Thanks for the kind remarks, Will. You've given us quite a reputation to live up to.

I hope that nothing we do puts off would-be performers but that our love for the music and the care we put into it inspires them to do the same.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:26 AM

Dear Auntie Marge;
Advice please - especially from those who insist that no standards are required.
We attended a singers club last night; started at 10pm - hadn't finished at 2am, when we left. A room of around 100 people.
A nationally-known (or at least county-wide) guest who was undoubtedly good.
The compare (a Comhaltas organiser) opened proceedings with 2 songs from the guest, then began selecting his way round the room. After about 12 songs, 2 more from the guest, then procedure repeated for the rest of the evening - as far as we saw it.
Every singer in the room (somewhere between 30-40) got an equal amount of songs (probably ended up 2 each) apart from the guest, who had sung about 8 by the time we left.
A handful of the singers were good, some were so-so, most, while appearing to be enthusiastic, were poor and a few were diabolical.
Everybody in the room appeared to be enjoying themselves and no standards were applied to impede that enjoyment.
Questions.
1 Is this what those who are suggesting that no standards are necessary are advocating (everybody who sang undoubtedly wanted to)?
2 Should we go back next month?
3 Would you go back next month?
4 Is this the best way to advance the music?

Confused, Munster
(Jim Carroll)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:34 AM

PS
One of the regulars - a highly respected and quite elderly singer and songwriter who supports all these events joins in with all the songs by whistling quite audibly, whether he knows the tune or not - is this permissible Richard?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:55 AM

Dear Confused of Munster,

I'm sorry that you're so confused, but glad that you're taking advantage of the Mudcat helplines and all of the lovely Aunties out there.

Doesn't everything turn on what the purpose of the club is, and what you yourself expect from it? Your Question 4 anticipates a purpose by asking "Is this the best way to advance the music?" - but is that the stated purpose of that particular singers' club? You say that "everybody in the room seemed to be enjoying themselves" - perhaps that's just what they were there for - to enjoy themselves. Perhaps both.

Question 2: Go back and support the effort if you enjoyed it. Don't go back if you didn't.

Question 3: I would have to go there myself and test the water, just like you.

Questions 1 and 4: Clubs like these are not perhaps the best way - but they are one of many ways. I would hope that those who weren't so good could listen to those that were and learn some lessons. When I attended my first acoustic session, I knew practically nothing - but I have a good ear and began to pick up the stuff pretty quickly. However, as we've noted before, any would-be performer has to have some measure of self-awareness and self-criticism, and be aware of the ethos of the club or circle that they're performing in. I wouldn't push my nose into one of the Irish sessions around Brighton - far too educated and single-minded for me - but I'd sit in with any jazz outfit or blues outfit that would have me and probably hold my own.

Now, Confused, don't be afraid to ask for advice any time you need it in the future.

Hugs and kisses

Auntie Marge
xxx

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 06:17 AM

Should have said,
This is our 4th visit - we last visited this club four years ago - the only thing that has changed is the number attending - much bigger - the poor singing has grown in proportion to the attendance and there is no sign whatever of the old hands improving (as far as I could make out).
Also, for those who don't know, Comhaltas = Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann (CCE), whose stated aim is the promotion of Irish traditional music (and who receive a considerable amount of taxpayers money for doing so), so there can be no question on the aim of the club.
Is this really the (or even a) way forward - if so, how?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:18 AM

Dear Confused of Munster

The question is of course all hinged round how I can best advocate our folk club. There cannot be as many bad singers as you say because we only get excellent ones at ours therefore the problem does not exist and even if it did we cannot allow for every eventuality. As long as these people want to sing they mut be good and even if they are not they soon will be and if they never improve we do not not know what to do because the likelyhood of this happening is so infinetesamly small that for you to see it so often you must only go to really crap clubs.

Hope this helps

Uncle David

:-D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cappuccino
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM

Many apologies – I had missed this thread (only a thousand entries!) and now find it's relevant to something I had been wondering about posting.

I'll avoid the location, because I don't want to offend, but it was a pub, deep in the west country (UK). We booked a few days' rest and peace at this quiet out-of-the-way pub, and partly because we noticed it promoted a folk night. Great!   Arrived at the pub and saw 'folk music' promoted on a board outside. All very promising.

Come the night, the customers sitting, and indeed dining, near the nice log fire were all moved elsewhere, because 'that's where the musicians sit'.   The musicians arrived – about nine of them, I think, couple of guitars, accordion, two or three fiddles, bodhran, usual stuff.   They all sat in a circle by the log fire, which meant that at least half of them had their backs to everyone else in the pub.

They played the kind of tunes you would expect, and weren't bad at all.

But some things niggled me.

After several of the tunes, the customers in the bar applauded. The applause was completely ignored by this circle of musicians.   Some people attempted to speak to the musicians – they were ignored, too. The musicians spoke only to each other.

Surely, if a venue promotes music as an attraction, then the musicians should be playing to the audience, not to themselves? If it's a 'session', you must say so in the publicity, or otherwise it suggests a 'show', someone entertaining an audience?

Even in a session situation in a pub, is it acceptable for the musicians to play in a closed private circle, with their backs to the audience? Surely, even if it is a 'session' and not a 'show', it is appalling bad manners for any musicians to ignore applause?      

Or am I wrong to be miffed about this? (And after so many years on this forum, I should know better than to ask such a question!).

What an appalling image for the folk scene to put out.

Cheers
Cappuccino

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:20 AM

PS - Confused of Munster - If you don't like it just ignore it in the hope that it wil go away

Uncle David

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:22 AM

You are quite right Cappucino - I would see it as extreme bad manners as well.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

Cappucino,
          You say you do not wish to offend anyone by revealing the venue where you experienced a bad night. Why not say, for goodness sake? Surely by doing so, if anyone associated with the conduct you describe gets the message then maybe there is a chance of improvement. By keeping it confidential there is little chance of that. Take a leaf out of the t.v. programmes that reveal bad and sometimes criminal behaviour and let the public and the practitioners know.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: peregrina
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

Anyone here hear Pam Ayres talking about her enthusiasm for folk clubs in the 70s on BBC radio 4's Saturday live this morning (plus a favourite shantey at the end)? A nice tribute to the openness and inclusiveness of the ones she went to.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM

Wonder if she could/can sing in tune and remember the words?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM

>>This is our 4th visit - we last visited this club four years ago - the only thing that has changed is the number attending - much bigger - the poor singing has grown in proportion to the attendance and there is no sign whatever of the old hands improving (as far as I could make out).

At last I understand where you are coming from, Jim.

Folk music is an elite and narrow beast that can only be true itself by being accessible to the few.
The only way it can be spoiled is by people being a part of it because they will break it because they are not good enough for it. Low attendance is a prerequisite of quality because it is for the few.

But yet you keep going back - which looks like a triumph of hope over experience.

In answer to your question should you go back - Yes of course. It will serve to reinforce your rather bizarre views

I think I now understand why folk music died and why there are so few folk clubs - people like you killed the thing you thought you were protecting.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 09:00 PM

Sessions are a different beast.

Applause is neither sought nor acknowledged - it is about the tunes. They were not being rude just doing what all session players do.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM

Nick,
If my views are bizarre then they apply to every single performance activity - unless you can name one where standards don't apply and where people will continue to support activities which are poorly carried out?
Folk music died because it became unskilled and uninspiring. I watched as the clubs, apart from the ones where the opposite was the case, gradually (and in some cases, not so gradually) emptied. I followed a recent thread inquiring about where to hear singing in London and was absolutely staggered at the lack of response - this from a city that boasted a multiple choice seven nights a week.
Blaming those (three quarters of the scene) of us who walked away when the music became unlistenable to is, a suppose, a good cop-out for those who refuse to guarantee audiences a good standard, but there are enough hits on this thread to suggest that there are still those around who care enough to try and change things.
Last night we put on an excellently attended concert of local musicians and singers to raise money to pay for the premises we have recently purchased for the musical archive and resource centre we have established in this 'one-horse rural town/village in the arsehole of nowhere'.
I got a chance to talk to a number of people who attended the marathon sing-in of the night before - I didn't meet one of them who would be going back there - the reason they gave - 'too much crap singing mixed in with a tiny handful of singers who could find their way around a tune' - says it all really.
"Applause is neither sought nor acknowledged"
Sessions here are also occasions where musicians and listeners communicate with each other - it really is the 'done thing'. You Never get the 'me musician, you listener' syndrome, Cappuccino described so vividly (not even at last nights concert).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

Where is your one-horse town, Jim?

- Cappuccino

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:27 PM

nick, sessions are not about ignoring the punters.
those that do ignore,will find that the publican turns round and says sorry go else where.
publicans are struggling at the moment to make ends meet,
Pubs here in rural ireland,are disappearing.,they [publicans] are all looking at ways of getting people into their premises,the last thing they need ,is introspective musical wankers,who are more concerned about what twiddle[and whether it is in keeping with the irish tradition] they put in to the turn of a tune,and who are only concerned with their own clique.,and whose music has lost all joy, because it ended up their own arses years ago,along with comhaltas obsession with ornamentation.
all pub musicians, have to interact with the punters,otherwise the landlord will put on a quiz night or some other jamboree instead.
there are plenty of idiot musicians with this holier than thou attitude they are not doing the music or anyone else any favours,they are perfect examples of boring competence.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:40 PM

I know I will probably regret this but why does Jim's experience being different to yours turn him town into the 'one-horse' category, Cappuccino? We have sessions in and around Manchester that are very inclusive of the audience and I think, well, last time I counted anyway, there is more than one horse here:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:45 PM

Can I make sure I'm getting this right. The present (alleged) parlous state of UK folk clubs is the fault of Comhaltas and the X-Factor.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM

Cappuccino
Miltown Malbay.
Don't know who suggested Comhaltas was in any way to blame for the 'alleged' parlous state of the clubs; it seems many of those involved are managing the job quite well without their assistance (what's the X Factor - used to be a brand of washing powder?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM

Subject: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber - PM
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

We had a new person at our folk club last night, he had a couple of guitars and a dulcimer. He waas obviously looking for gigs andhad a list of folk clubs which he had visited. Very talented if you like folk rock.

BUT Oh dear, oh dear, he:

                     Looked bored when other people were performing

                     Played with his guitar strap instead of
                     looking at the performer

ASubject: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber - PM
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

We had a new person at our folk club last night, he had a couple of guitars and a dulcimer. He waas obviously looking for gigs andhad a list of folk clubs which he had visited. Very talented if you like folk rock.

BUT Oh dear, oh dear, he:

                     Looked bored when other people were performing

                     Played with his guitar strap instead of
                     looking at the performer

AND WORST OF ALL HE CRUNCHED CRISPS AND NIBBLED NUTS.

Set me thinkin about folk club manners. When my son first started in folk at the age of 16 I told him:

NEVER come in or go out when people are performing.

NEVER sing a song which you know someone does regularly.

What examples of bad folk club manners can you give?

What advice would you give?

Amber
AND WORST OF ALL HE CRUNCHED CRISPS AND NIBBLED NUTS
was he called Squirrel Nutkin?.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

Sorry DeG, I wasn't getting at Jim - it was he who used the phrase 'one-horse town'. If I read it right, he said he was in a 'one-horse rural town/village in the arsehole of nowhere'. I was merely quoting his post and asking politely where he was, in case there was any chance of getting there to see his venue.

No offence intended. Lord knows, after being on this forum, on and off, for ten years or so, I'm very wary of causing offence !!!

As it turns out, I've just looked up his town - and now I want to go there.

I heard some great sessions in Manchester when I was last living there, DeG... but that was in the 70s. Good folk clubs, and even the occasional great blues legend at the Free Trade Hall, but of course that's another story. (I'm convinced I once saw Howlin' Wolf and Freddie King on the same bill there, but the memory plays tricks after all these years).

Cappuccino.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:25 PM

I'm only back because I was PM'd. You aren't listening Jim. You don't want to listen Jim. You pretend you can't understand plain words Jim. It's not up to you to tell people who may and who may not play and sing Jim.

It doesn't matter whether we are as good as you and the Captain, or whether we aren't or whether either of you are as good as you think you are (if that's what you think) or as bad as you think you are (if that's what you think)..

No-one appointed you or anyone else as custodian of what is or is not good enough.

Please stop pretending you are saying or meaning something different. You are saying some people should be prevented from singing or playing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

Jim

I don't fundamentally disagree with you about standards that's not the part of your view that I find bizarre.

'Folk music died because it became unskilled and uninspiring.' How could that happen? If it was fine and loved and popular and sought after how could it have been such an ephemeral fad?

The bit that I don't understand is why you and the other three quarters you refer to let it change if it was so popular. And implicitly within that how people would come flocking back if it was like it was then - and I can't really see where you point to the evidence for that because I haven't seen it. I see plenty of music going on but precious little 'pure folk music' whether it be at folk clubs, singarounds, sessions or festivals that I have been to (and I go to at least 1 or 2 music things a week). But I go to places where I'm sure that people believe they are doing something that they see as being (at least) folk inspired. I had a pleasant afternoon in the wilds of north Yorkshire this weekend listening to a range of song and music of which some was unaccompanied traditional song and some wasn't. And the standard varied. It was really nice to meet and chat to John Connolly who happened to be sitting behind me in the singaround whose songs I really enjoy and listen to a range of music most of which I would say was of a decent standard. Wasn't many locals there it was a little narrow group of enthusaiasts who enjoy their hobby (and drinking!)

And I think people were enjoying themselves and enjoying sharing music together. In my simple way I still have a feeling that a lot of folk music sprung out of the same impulse of sharing and enjoying - I've always thought of song as a peculiarly happy thing that human beings do.

The event that you referred to has got more popular over time and yet now is no good. You rarely go places because you know they will be no good. People sometimes just attend events to support something that is going on in a local community - a bit like going to the village Xmas pantomine that you know will be no better than it was last year but it's the right thing to do.

I don't think that traditional music is as popular as you think it is - I think it is very popular with a narrow band of people and sometimes in it's most popular and accessible forms does touch and engage large numbers of people. My sister used to go to the London folk clubs in the 60s because folk was "where it's at" for a while but if I went and looked in her record collection there would be nothing there that would come near the definition of folk music that you hold. But she was part of the interest at that time because it was popular. There's probably a Donovan album and one by the Spinners but it's probably as close as she gets, and I think she enjoyed Riverdance when she went.

You say that 'that there are still those around who care enough to try and change things'. To what? Back to something in the past or forward into something that is different? Things evolve and there is an inevitability that things don't stay the same.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:04 AM

Richard,
"It doesn't matter whether we are as good as you and the Captain, or whether we aren't or whether either of you are as good as you think you are"
Are you deliberately distorting what people are saying here? - I don't sing, I don't consider myself a singer any more, I have never been anything other than a passable singer and I am certainly not attempting to masquerade as better than anyone - and , in case you missed it, I've said this at least three times on this thread in response to similar distortions by you. I can only assume that that you are repeating this to cover your paucity of ideas?
"No-one appointed you or anyone else as custodian of what is or is not good enough."
As a non- performer I have as much right as anybody to comment on the scene as I see it, it's called 'free speech', - or would you reserve that for only those who perform. Maybe in your world 'some are more equal than others'?
Anybody involved in the music and having an interest in its future has a right to say what they believe to be bad and good - as far as I'm concerned - good singing = good, bad singing in public = bad, insulting to the audiences (present or potential) and detrimental to the future of the music - as has been more than adequately proved by the disappearance of the clubs and he music.
Nick,
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear; I've repeated it often enough on this thread and elsewhere - maybe I should have been more specific.
The performance of the music at clubs became unskilled and uninspiring - as far as I'm concerned the songs and music are just as important and entertaining as they ever were, that's why I continue to work at them.
This argument is about whether it remains in the doldrums for the benefit of the inexperienced, untalented and uninspired, or we move it on by applying standards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:18 AM

I saw Rachel Unthank and The Winterset last Friday at Caistor Primary School with an audience of about 120. I suspect most of these people had never seen them before.
So I was very interested in how they would be as an audience.

The audience were brilliant. They listened and didn't talk through the songs. They applaud loudly and enthusiastically at the end of each song. They joined in with the chorus when asked by the band.

My opinion about the audience - impeccably well mannered.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM

No offence taken at all Cappuccino - I was just a bit curious and you have very ably satisfied my curiousity:-) Still some good sessions and clubs around here but nowhere near as many:-( I saw John Mayalls bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton at the Free Trade in the 70s as well - what a gig! Free Trade Hall is now an Hotel but that is a completely different gripe!

Richard, I know It's not up to you to tell people who may and who may not play and sing was directed at Jim but, if Jim is a folk club organiser, then yes it is! At my club it is up to the organisers who sings and plays. As I keep saying, on a singers night we currently have a 'come all ye' policy, if you can call it that. On a guest night we are choosey. We DO tell people who may and may not sing - and that includes joining in if necessary. Although we have only ever had to stop one person from joining in. One of the non-improvers I may add!

As to You are saying some people should be prevented from singing or playing No it isn't. Everyone is entitled to do what the hell they want, law and decent behaviour permitting, but not at my club on a guest night. If you feel that anyone is entitled to sing and play anywhare then let me know your address so I cam come round and spoil your evening:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:35 AM

Bryan - No you have got it wrong. Sorry.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:50 AM

Jim Carroll

Don't know who suggested Comhaltas was in any way to blame for the 'alleged' parlous state of the clubs;

Up until now, Jim, you've been saying that folk clubs in the UK are collapsing or have collapsed because their orgnaisers are promoting crap standards whereas in Ireland everything is thriving and blossoming. In your latest attack on "those who insist that no standards are required" you lay the blame at the feet of "a Comhaltas organiser".

I gather from other sources that failed X-Factor contestants are roaming the land demanding floorspots in folk clubs although I haven't encountered them myself.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:44 AM

by running workshops we are applying standards,and hoping to improve standards.
this is what Bryan Creers club is doing,and that is very laudable.
I am sorry,I dont believe people who say that they will allow anyone to sing on a guest night,the person who is being honest here, is Dave The Gnome.
personally. I would be very reluctant to stop anyone from singing on a singers night,but I can think of about three people in forty years,who were so bad,that I would try to encourage them to have voice workshops,before I put them on again,one of the three was a recorder player with no sense of rhythm,again: first I would try[hopefully tactfully] to encourage them to go to a suitable workshop.
I wouldnt stop someone from singing because they were using words ,but I would try to encourage them to have a go without.
however I dont think singing with words is a very good idea.
In any club I have run I have never stopped anyone from singing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:53 AM

I gather from other sources that failed X-Factor contestants are roaming the land demanding floorspots in folk clubs

Dee, dee, dee, dee
Dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee

Oh, look children. Here's Mr Rusty and Dougal. Mr Rusty is saying that he would give Dillon a spot, but not Ermintrude. She can't sing in tune with the hurdy gurdy. Dougal thinks he is probably right but wouldn't give Dillon a spot either. Too weird man...

Oh, Bryan has appeared. Anyone should be able to do whatever they like anytime?

Time for bed says Zeberdee

Now, children, can anyone tell me which bits above are made up? :-D

Cheers

DeG
(Alias Mr McHenry)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

if an organiser is responsible financially,for running a club,paying the guest etc,he is perfectly entitled to do what he wants regarding selection of singers,enforcement of other manners[the Squirrelling or allowance of Squirrelling of nuts,or the non allowance etc].
if its a committee that are financially responsible then it is up to the committtee to come to a decision.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

Captain Birdseye

Bryan Creers club

Not my club, we are a committee of ten.

I am sorry,I dont believe people who say that they will allow anyone to sing on a guest night

We allow anyone who wishes to to sing on a guest night. Clear enough? We tend to find that the less confident singers will sometimes refuse to do so no matter how much we try to persuade them.

I can think of about three people in forty years,who were so bad,that I would try to encourage them to have voice workshops

Three people in forty years is not a viable market for a workshop and does little to convince me that the non-improving bad singer is a serious problem.

In any club I have run I have never stopped anyone from singing.

Good.

Not sure what you are getting at with the talk of being "financially responsible".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

its bloody obvious what I am getting at Bryan,
if one person the organiser[there is no committee] is responsible for paying the guest,he is responsible for getting people in to the club,if he feels putting a bad singer on is likely to affect the numbers of people coming into the club,and thus his ability to pay the guest,he has every right to refuse a singer ,it is in effect his club,because he is financially responsible,he / she can also determine what rules as regards manners,are enforced at the club.
the fact that i would allow a low standard for floor singers to sing,does not mean that they are not open to improvement[as we all are, myself included],
a lot of the singers I would allow on,would benefit from going to workshops.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:43 AM

Captain, you seem to have a very different model of the organisation of a folk club from ours. There is no one person who is responsible for paying the guest and all members of the committee take their turn at being MC for the evening and run it as they see fit. I can't really discuss the details of how we pay our guests without revealing confidential contractual arrangements.

I can say that we see our role as arranging guests for our audience, not arranging audiences for our guests.

the fact that i would allow a low standard for floor singers to sing,does not mean that they are not open to improvement[as we all are, myself included],
a lot of the singers I would allow on,would benefit from going to workshops.

No problem with that at all but if anyone chooses not to go to a workshop that is up to them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

stop being obtuse,you   know very well,that many clubs in the past[and some still are] run/financed by one person.

No problem with that at all but if anyone chooses not to go to a workshop that is up to them.
Thats bloody obvious too,and that is part of the problem.[Isaid earlier you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink]
the singer on one of these threads who had listened to herself,and realised she was going quarter tone sharp,by the end of the song, had the right idea,critical analysis of her performance.
not that I think it matters too much if an unaccompanied singer does this,more important is singing in tune and interpretation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM

Dick, the vast majority of contributors to this thread appear to agree that poor performers, even a tiny minoroty, can be a problem the clubs they attend. Most people can see what you, and most other people, are getting at. Most people can discuss what is wrong in folk clubs without taking it as a personal insult to their organisational prowess. I think you are ahead on points.

Funnily enough I can say that without fear of contradiction at the moment:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:12 PM

Captain Birdseye

stop being obtuse,you   know very well,that many clubs in the past[and some still are] run/financed by one person.

Fine, but what has that got to do with our policy at the Lewes Arms?

the singer on one of these threads who had listened to herself,and realised she was going quarter tone sharp,by the end of the song, had the right idea,critical analysis of her performance.

Just so. The sternest critic of a performer is the performer themselves. As Ewan MacColl said in Jim's quote earlier -

Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.

It's up to the performer themselves to raise their standard. The drive has to come from within not from somebody telling them they aren't good enough.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:29 PM

DeG Fart in folk clubs,   !!! well if it's in tune???? Petamane,, was 'nt that an (f)art form performed on stage for good money??

As for what to do with non improvers in your club, if your club is regularly well attended then you must be doin' it right!!
Now let's all be good lads and go to our fav folk club and just enjoy.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM

Aeola - This was the bloke! Nothing to do with some of the farts I have encountered at folk clubs though:-) Our club is indeed regularly well attended but I am always interested in how to make improvements though.

As you can see everyone is in agreement now. No other club has anything to do with the policies of the Lewes Arms. The policy at the Lewes Arms has nothing to do with anyone else. There are poor performers around but they never appear at the Lewes Arms and even if they did they would be welcomed. People are completely self policing and all is well in the world:-D

I don't know what the fuss is about and why people are continuing to argue. I do know I must be getting something right though as I have a wonderful sense of peace...

No club for me tonight as I am full of a cold but we are having a grand bash on Saturday.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

"Up until now, Jim, you've been saying that folk clubs in the UK are collapsing or have collapsed because their orgnaisers are promoting crap standards whereas in Ireland everything is thriving and blossoming."
To the first part, yes, I most certainly do, and you have gone a long way to confirming it. To the second, no I haven't, nor is it.
Things are moving in the right direction, the music is thriving and blossoming, the singing, though it still has a way to go, is improving. Any problem that it is experiencing stems from your 'no standards' attitude which Comhaltas tends to lean towards - hence last Friday night's debacle. Saturday night's concert was in complete contrast, with an excellent combination of music and singing - and not a CCE official in sight.
There is no club tradition here, but where they do exist, the general standard is high. The same applies to the numerous singing week-ends.
There are a rising number of young singers, Helen Hayes, Alana Henderson, Roisín Al-Safty, Paula Carroll.... which indicates that singing has a future. The general ability is high and the repertoire is firmly rooted in the tradition.
Any problems that do exist, and there are a few, do not arise from the 'dumbing down' process that is being argued for here.
"Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening."
MacColl was advocating working on a song so that you didn't make a balls of it, not getting up and practicing (and making a balls of it) in front of an audience - please use the whole quote, not the bit that suits.
In the long run it is the responsibility of the club organisers to ascertain that the music presented to the audience is of a standard that it can be enjoyed; you don't do that by dumbing down. If you don't live up to your responsibility you are short-changing them. Nobody so far has acknowledged their responsibilty to their audiences - do you feel you don't have one - if you do, what is it?.
A number of people are advocating double standards - one for the guest nights, one for the residents. The club member who turns up every week, no matter who is on, is the person who earns the right to be given the best, not the one who just turns up for the current 'flavour of the month'. Your regulars are your roots into the community and it is they who will ascertain whether the club stands or falls. The idea of not giving of your best on a residents night, and only putting your good singers on when yo have a guest is hypocritical and unfair.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM

Jim, do you consider the standard of performance at The Lewes Arms Folk Club to be poor?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

It's up to the performer themselves to raise their standard. The drive has to come from within not from somebody telling them they aren't good enough.
yes and no,the club organiser,or resident,may be a good person to give tactful constructive criticism,to the aspiring floor singer.,if they ask for it or if they query why they are not given a floor spot.
Snail,what has the Lewes arms got to do with this?,other than your desire to publicise the club,that you are one tenth of the committee.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

Jim, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I take issue with the final comment that "The idea of not giving of your best on a residents night, and only putting your good singers on when yo have a guest is hypocritical and unfair."

Most club regulars are well aware that a singers night and a guest night are quite different animals, and are tolerant of lower standards at singers nights - they might even find the courage to sing themselves. Guest nights are showpieces, and deserve the best. Singers nights are an opportunity for anyone who wishes to sing, but the standards are likely to be patchy. As long as the club audience accepts this, there isn't a problem.

The folk clubs have traditionally provided an opportunity for singers to learn the craft. I agree that you shouldn't "practice in public", but you can only get confidence to perform in public by doing it.    The downside is that while singers are gaining experience their standard may leave something to be desired, but that seems to be accepted as well, at least in most of the clubs I've been in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM

Blimey, this isn't about Folk club Manners, it has become a thread on who should perform and who shouldn't.

Get a grip and get back on topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

Les - Folk club manners include which singers should know when to put a sock in it as well:-) Yes, maybe it should have been another thread but we may as well leave it here now it's arrived!

Jim. Yes and No. While I agree entirely that I may be seen to be applying 'double standards' I only do so because the club does serve multiple purposes.

Firstly, there are those who only turn up for singers nights. Either because they want to perform, because singers nights are free or for many other reasons. Those are the ones who understand that one or two bad performances over the course of a month or two can be acceptable. I explain the format to anyone new, usualy along the lines of 'Anyone who wants to perform can do. There may be some "interesting" songs'. Said with a smile and a wink of course;-)

Then there are those who will only ever turn up on a guest night. Who, like many others, expect a certain standard of music. These people pay their £3's and, as organiser, I try my best to uphold the standard. We know there are many more good singers than bad so I somethimes take a chance when someone new arrives, like Pip did when Dick was on. I will try to accomodate them and, as yet, have not been dissappointed.

Finaly there are the 'hard core' who turn up every week. Like me they know that at most they will have the occasional poor performance and dozens of fair to brilliant ones. Funnily enough our hard core non-improvers have been missing for a few weeks now but I am not getting my hopes up! I am not saying that poor performances are acceptable. They are not generaly. But when you weigh them against the good they are a very small overhead. Of course, like I said before, sods law says that when the TV crew arrive they will concentrate on the worse:-(

I hope this explains why 'double standards' is not a bad thing in this case. I think you will find plenty of evidence on this thread that it does seem to work at Swinton and at other clubs (not the Lewes Arms of course) but I do not advocate it as a solution for all. As to the unfairness of only putting good singers on during guest nights. Well, maybe if we charged the same for both and advertised both as the same thing I would agree. But singers nights are free of charge while we charge people £3 to see a paid guest. The raffle on singers nights goes a long way towards subsidising the guest nights and where else could you see a national quality artist strumming along with the likes of me? :-)

We could of course stop altogether. Send the non-improvers to Karaoke and the people who will only listen to the best to concerts. But where does that leave the vast majority of generaly excellent performers who occupy middle ground?

Cheers

Dave

BTW - Were you sending me something about 'themed nights'?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM

"Jim, do you consider the standard of performance at The Lewes Arms Folk Club to be poor?"
We both know I have never been to the Lewes Arms Club so I can only assume your question was a rhetorical one - on the other hand, it might be just to avoid answering mine - especially the ones I asked on (19 Nov 08 - 05:47) which you scrambled on your high horse to avoid.
I have no idea if The Lewes Club is good or bad - and (as you keep telling me not to rely on hearsay) I hesitate to express an opinion on such. I suggest that if singers who couldn't sing turned up and you regularly put them on - it isn't a good club - but you tell us that doesn't happen (and Brutus is an honourable man). But that - as I've said before, and had no response to - means that you are advocating something for the rest of us that doesn't effect you.
Howard,
Sorry, any good club I have ever belonged to has relied entirely on its residents, not its guest policy.
We were lucky with the Singers to have Ewan, Peg, and other excellent performers as residents, but I can't think of one club resident I have shared a platform with that I haven't been proud to perform with and who I was happy to put my trust in.
Your residents will be there next week when your guests go home; it's them you can plan feature evenings with, who you can work regularly with on things like accompaniments, choruses, harmonies etc, whose singing you are familiar with, who you can trust that what they are going to do is well intentioned, who can be confident that they will come to the rescue if you drop the ball. If you decide to tackle work above and beyond.... say to research the local repertoire, (or gather information on music, dance and song) in your area, or say, put together a collection of local songs, tunes or dances, or compile an archive, or run a workshop or seminar, it's your residents who will put their hand up, not your guest.
Guests should be the decorations on a well baked cake, never the main course.
And as I said, it's the feller or woman who turns up week after week, no matter who's on that you are responsible to, not somebody who only turns up to see Martin Carthy or Christie Moore - or whoever.
If you are going to rely on guests, you really don't need a club - you may as well rent the local church hall once a month.
It's true that residents performances are going to vary, but your residents are a unit whereas your guests are one-offs. Permanence makes a club, not stars - that is unless you measure your success by balancing your budget with bums on seats.
I don't accept that 'practicing in public' is the only way to learn - certainly not on club nights, there are other alternatives - your audiences, and the music are worth much more respect than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:32 AM

Addenda-
or don't you think so?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:29 AM

Well, like I said Jim, Yes and No. Our 'residents' do turn up every week regardless of whether it is a guest night or a singers night and those residents are all good enough to put on anywhere and anytime. I would add that a very high proportion of our guests do come along on singers nights and other guest nights as well! There are also about 4 residents who regularly (one a year) feature as guests. So I have no issue at all with the quality of our residents.

The issue is not residents. Never has been and this is the first time, I think, that resients have been mentioned. The non-improving performers are exclusively with the people who only regularly turn up on singers nights. They are not residents and nothing I have ever said, either here or to them, would make them anything other than regular floor singers. And, as I said yesterday, not too regular at the moment! Maybe I don't need to worry about them any more?

Maybe we need to redefine what class of poor performer we are talking about? I would agree with you completely on the score that 'residents' do need to be a good standard but I believe we may be using two different definitions of resident. I will start with mine. It includes only those who care for the club. Who turn out week after week in whatever weather, not knowing if they will get a singers spot or not and, most importantly, are ambasadors for Swinton Folk Club whether at home or away!

I know there are factions here who say that if they are not that regular they are not a problem - but they are! Once a month is too often sometimes and every singers night is certainly an overload. I think I understand more what you are getting at now - Those clubs who have poor quality residents running (and ruining!) the show. I have seen one or two in my time as well but, as you say, they have often caused the clubs to close. Blessing in disguise perhaps?

Does that make things any clearer or does it cloud the issue further still?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:51 AM

Captain Birdseye

Snail,what has the Lewes arms got to do with this?

I have stated that our policy at The Lewes Arms Folk Club is to give floorspots to anyone who wants one whether it be a singers night or a guest night. I have come under considerable criticism for this and have been accused of promoting crap standards, dumbing down, allowing people to practice in public, driving audiences out of the folk clubs and God knows what else. There seems to have been a competition to find the most absurd candidate for "Would you allow this person to perform at your club?" I suppose it relieves the pressure to know that we share the blame with Comhaltas.

We, as a club, are being criticised by people who have never visited us or at least not for a very long time.

I cannot speak for other clubs; I can only say as I have said before - "We do what we do and we find that it works."

The Villan

Blimey, this isn't about Folk club Manners

Actually, I think it is. It's about how we behave towards each other and the respect we show to each other.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Couple of people have mentioned my local, Chorlton... one place where the policy is deffo 'give a spot to anyone who wants one'... Maybe that polcy works for you Snail, but down at Chorlton what it leads to is reading... lots and lots of reading. Someobdy did Plaisir damour... not long or complicated... they did it with a songbook. Somebody did Whirly whirl... nice song and great to hear it sung, but she sang the whole thign with her face in a songbook. And of course the night began the way it always does, with an old bloke who can't sing doing something out of the old Singing Together reperotoir... out of a songbook. It's frustrating... some of htese people could be much better if they tried harder and some of them could do us a favour by shuting up... but neither of those things is going to happen while there's this 'come one come all' metnality.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

Jim Carroll

We both know I have never been to the Lewes Arms Club so I can only assume your question was a rhetorical one

Jim, you had, once again, accused me of promoting crap standards. I was pointing out that you have absolutely no idea what the standard of performance is at the Lewes Arms so you have no evidence for your accusation.

I can find nothing in your post of 19 Nov 08 - 05:47 which seems to be a question for me to answer. Are you sure that's the post you mean? What I did find was -

In the light of the existing situation on the folk scene the idea that you throw the doors open to singers incapable of singing is a bloody nonsense

Your basic assumption seems to be that anybody who wants to sing is incapable of doing so. Our experience is that people who want to sing generally can and will put in the necessary practice before doing so. Those who can't (or believe they can't because someone has told them so) choose not to perform.

In the long run it is the responsibility of the club organisers to ascertain that the music presented to the audience is of a standard that it can be enjoyed;

Two problems with that. You seem to have totally failed to grasp my point that floor singers are part of the audience; a significant part; on frequent occasions, the major part.

The other problem is that, as the quote from MacColl makes clear, the responsibility for the standard of performance ultimately depends on the performer. All that anyone else can do is give support and encouragement.

I suggest that if singers who couldn't sing turned up and you regularly put them on

They don't. We don't. Sorry if that doesn't suit your world view. We have some who may be not very good (which, if you think about it, is exactly the same euphemism as "not exactly concert standard") but I can think of no-one who doesn't steadily improve.

For the rest of your post of 25 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM, I am a little confused because you suddenly launch off into guest policy which is an entirely different subject and certainly nothing to do with Folk Club Manners.

Yes, I do believe our audiences (including the performers among them) and the music are worthy of the greatest respect.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

Jim Carroll wrote
I have no idea if The Lewes Club is good or bad

proving that even the naming of clubs has not be settled in over 1000 postings.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:49 AM

B. Norah, Snail - those who can't sing choose not to perform? Lucky old Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:51 AM

You see, it's weird, Lloyd George (who are you by the way?). In principle, I agree with you, but I kind of like Chorlton how it is, warts 'n' all. In any case, I'd rather start the night with Brian's 'unique' take on folk songs than end with the obligatory Buddy Holly or Cliff Richard number that seems to happen every time I turn up... (which isn't as often as I should, which is probably why I enjoy it so much). I guess I don't expect to hear much "folk" (what is folk? alert - don't go there!) at Chorlton Folk Club, so I'm rarely disappointed, but I am usually astounded by the sheer quality of a few of the performers, particularly the frighteningly stoned-looking young men with the nu-folk hairdoes and beautiful voices. And I would happily listen all night to the American woman, whose name I don't know, who sings and plays banjo.

Meanwhile, for a cracking night out with plenty of unnaccompanied traditional folk and a few other things there's always the Beech, first Wednesday of the month... oh! That'll be next Wednesday, then...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:55 AM

Get a grip and get back on topic
Fat chance, with all this willy-waving going on. My bet is that this thread will hit the 2000 mark and we'll still have three people arguing over which end of the egg to break.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM

Spleen Cringe

nu-folk hairdoes

Wha...? No, don't tell me. I'm probably happier not knowing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM

Thanks, mate, Gervase. And there was me thinking my last post was quite mild mannered and pleasant and faintly humerous...

Willy waving! I ask you...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:03 AM

This sort of thing, Bryan...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:17 AM

That's me about thirty five years ago.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:44 AM

Willy Waving? Only wish I could mate, only wish I could. Not seen it for years...

and the Nu-folk hairdo's. Blimey. Mine was never like that even when I had hair and I was never that good looking! Don't you hate 'em. Talented, young, handsome t***ts:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:58 AM

Oh, and Bryan - I know you are not talking to me but I would like to say thanks for the line floor singers are part of the audience; a significant part; on frequent occasions, the major part. It is what I was trying, and failing, to get at when I was prattling on about the three different kinds of audience we have. Off the top of my head I would break it down to

1. 10% The residents - Always of good quality
2. 40% The concert goers - Never perform
3. 50% The floorsingers of which I would estimate 55% are more than adequate, 40% are very good and 5% are well below par

I could be wrong but I think it is a fair-ish rule of thumb.

I think maybe it IS time to take this to another thread after all! Will someone else start it though so Bryan can add his views? :-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:55 PM

Bryan:
"Jim, you had, once again, accused me of promoting crap standards. I was pointing out that you have absolutely no idea what the standard of performance is at the Lewes Arms so you have no evidence for your accusation."
You seem to be working to the Joe Goebbels philosophy - if you repeat a lie enough it becomes true.
I have NEVER at any time commented on the standard of performance at the Lewes Arms, nor would I.
I, and the others who have participated in this discussion have reacted to your statement that all it takes is the desire to sing to be given a floor spot PERIOD.
You said it - it's crass as far as I'm concerned.
Richard said it (and at least had the bottle to articulate support for dumbing down) - it's crass.
If Pope John II had said it, it's still crass - end of story.
A comment on the statement, not on your club, which, according to you, does not get non-singers asking to sing.
"I can find nothing in your post of 19 Nov 08 - 05:47 which seems to be a question for me to answer."
Sorry, Bryan, not questions but general comments, some of which were directed to your statements - feel free to respond or not - as the case may be.
"Your basic assumption seems to be that anybody who wants to sing is incapable of doing so."
No it isn't, never has been, nor ever will be. I have constantly said that anybody can sing - as long as they put the work in; I expect that, in respect to the club, the audience, the music and themselves, they should have put sufficient work in to bring their singing up to a basic standard before, not during their appearance before an audience - you believe this to be unnecessary - that's why your non-standards are crass.
Wanting to be anything, pastry chef, mountaineer, singer requires that you train beforehand - otherwise you burn the cakes, break your neck or piss the audience off so they don't come back.
" re. singers who couldn't sing - They don't. We don't. Sorry if that doesn't suit your world view."
Then stop telling the rest of us that we should put up with what you don't have to - once again I ask - do you believe those of us who claim to have experienced the phenomenon are telling porkies??? If you do believe us - do you still propose that we should continue to let them practice in public till they get it right (or don't get it right, as the case may be?)
"floor singers are part of the audience;"
Here you appear to putting the onus of what goes on at the club directly on to the audience - do you take no responsibility for what goes on? Do the audience decide your guest policy by a show of hands - evasive bullshit!!!
"the responsibility for the standard of performance ultimately depends on the performer"
YES IT BLOODY IS -THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING; but it's up to the club organisers to ascertain that they have met their end of the bargain before they become regulars by doing the work to reach a basic standard - otherwise you are conning your audience, selling the music short and allowing your singer to run the risk of humiliating him/herself publicly.
Dave,
seems like a good set-up you have there - would that it was repeated a thousandfold - sounds like you don't need too many guests.
'GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George'
Crib sheets, Plaisir d'amour, Singing Together - thanks for the warning - which part of Chorlton in case I'm ever tempted to go?
Vic,
Apologies again - another senior moment. I am well aware that there are two clubs in Lewes and that Bryan is involved in The Lewes Arms and you are at The Royal Oak - my remarks are aimed at Bryan, not you and your club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Thanks, Jim. It is far from perfect but we like it:-) We DO get at least 2 serial song stranglers on a semi-regular basis and I am painfully aware of the damage they can do if let loose on an unsuspecting public! I know it seems a bit of a cop out to let them perform at singers nights and I am aware it does seem to be a double standard. At the moment though it is how we cope and it does limit the damage. Pity us poor sods who have to put up with it:-( At least we do know that there are issues that need addressing in our club and, I suspect, many more.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:28 PM

which part of Chorlton in case I'm ever tempted to go?

Ouch. I think you'd like the Beech, Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:03 PM

Jim Carroll


You seem to be working to the Joe Goebbels philosophy

Ah, its that Godwin's Law moment!

Is there any point in continuing? No, not really.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:57 PM

Shame really, Bryan. I thought you and Jim were just about to agree on something. There is not a problem at the Lewes Arms Folk club; the problem is your philosophy of 'the only qualification for performing folk music is the desire to'. You now seem to want to derail the argument into the realms of some psycho-babble formulated by an American lawyer! And you are taking you ball home, again.

You now have two people (at least) who are beneath continuing the discusion with. If you carry on at this rate which discussion groups will you be able to contribute to? The choice of who you can talk to online is getting smaller all the time isn't it?;-)

All the best to the Lewes Arms Club. Do you want me to let you know in advance when I am coming so you let me know if you will be there? Oh, sorry. You do not communicate with me do you? Oh dear, how sad, never mind. We will just have to play it by ear then:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

I was ambivalent about crib sheets until I saw this - now I'm decided

Martyn Wyndham Read with Martin Carthy

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 04:17 PM

Which side of the fence did you come down? It was apparent that MWR and the other singer (Maggie Goodall?) were using crib sheets, but they gave a pretty good performance all the same. Most of the audience did look as if they'd never seen a songsheet before - let alone one with the words of that carol - but I think we can go easy on audiences. And Richard Whiteley could only have benefited from having a songsheet put in his hand - he would have been forced to join in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 04:38 PM

the video is irrelevant to the discussion,it is no more relevant than Martin Carthy singing hymns in church.
they are not singing in a folk club[are they?]neither are they singing folk songs/traditional material.
the fact that they are musicians from the folk revival is irrelevant, if they chose to perform Handels Messiah ,we would not expect them , to perform without music,because they would be performing classical music.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:16 PM

I'm with Captain Swing near the top of this post NOBODY has the right to be listened to. Yes I believe in being polite to people but if they're boring it's up to them learn how to engage an audience. Some people are just totally fucking inept and not worth listening to, it's up to them to learn rather than expecting people to fall over themselves and gladly accept their ineptitude.
I myself have performed in plenty of non folk club/pub situations where I've just been musical wallpaper and nobody has listened, and on occasions some of these have turned out to be very good nights. It's up to the performer!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tyke
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 08:14 PM

The late Richard Whitely, ex Lord Mayor of Giggleswick, presenting a possible Yorkshire Television item on Calendar to a shocked looking audience of senior citizens. I would speculate to be a turn up to play and then can you all join in on these boys and girls shock horror.

To be fair to YTV I have heard worse when the sound man at Blue Murder concert thought that the three cords that Martin Cathy was playing just to keep things together was the main attraction.

Needs must and I am about to dust of my Christmas Songs for use once again so that I do not have to read the words. But if I was throw together, as I expect they all were, I doubt if I could learn the words to a version of a carol spontaneously I would need the words.

Let's trust in some none performer to come up with singers night of ABBA songs. Sorry it's a pet hate of mine!

Please note that although some people think that singing Carols at other times than Christmas is unlucky. I have disproved this theory as when I went out Carol singing in July I found that every house that I call at told me that I would be LUCKY!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 08:54 PM

I'd just like to say that when I'm singing, I positively encourage the nibbling of nuts. Dry Roasted, Cashews, Monkey Nuts, Ready Salted. I have incorporated these several traditional styles of nuts into my approach to folkmusic, because that's the only way the tradition will renew itself.

When it comes to nuts the bag has been opened, and it's no use pretending we can close it and go back to 1954.

Folk music needs youg people and their nuts.

Likewise the crinkling of crisp papers carries my enthusiastic endorsement, and I'd be offended if you didn't play with your guitar strap if you felt the need.

You see that's the kind of guy I am. I recognise the pressures young people are under

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 12:47 PM

Ah - but can you nibble nuts and sing at the same time? If so I suggest a joint career incorporating music and pebbledashing...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 05:34 PM

Ah Weelittledrummer ,, I think you've cracked it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM

You're not a traditionalist at heart are you WLD?

I'm not sure a peanut should really be allowed in an English folk club. Hazelnuts and Chestnuts and Filberts I'm ok about but the peanut sits uncomfortably in a traditional setting. It doesn't seem right somehow - the dry roasted particularly which is a very recent style. Similarly brazil nuts are ok in a jazz club but not folk. I think I'd need to know what sort of nuts are available before I went. Having a club which just serves 'nuts' doesn't seem very clear to me as I could go along and any sort of nut could be served.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

'You're not a traditionalist at heart are you WLD?'

That is at the very kernel of the problem. Personally I think eclecticism can be taken too far when examining the parameters of nuts in folk music.

Take the Nutting Girl who went nutting down in Kent. Theres nothing in the song which denotes the type of nuts - they may have been hazel nuts, roast chestnuts, pickled Wallnuts, maron glace, beech nuts...

I always interpret when the dramatic moment arrives and 'she throws her nuts away' as a statement about working class people rejecting the bourgeois values of wealthy classes with their hands always in the Sainsbury's giant pack of salted cashews - but perhaps this is fanciful.

Even if you disagree and think the nuts in question were dry roasted, I believe there is room for all sorts of nuts in folk music.

I take your point about Brazil nuts being okay in a jazz club. It goes with that stan getz/Astrid Gilberto vibe - bossa nova, boys from Ipanema thing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:26 AM

And furthermore in my view, that's the trouble with all you traddy types.

You enjoy fantasising and singing about 'Nutting Girls', but in actual fact when it comes time whip out the old giant cashews, you go all Doris Day - 'Oh Big Al! you don't really want me to do that with your nuts....'
'Yeh eat 'em baby!'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:12 AM

Well, I don't know about the state of folk clubs in general, but I thought I'd sample the monthly singaround at Charlwood (near Crawley) in Surrey yesterday evening. I went up with the intention of meeting up with an old friend - Wounded John Scott Cree - who I hadn't seen for over 25 years. John was there - just the same as ever - wonderfully funny and apparently unchanged.

However, I also took the opportunity to see what an evening at a strange session was like. And what a great evening it was. No charge on the door. Everyone sat round some tables placed end-to-end, with the overflow standing around us. The master of ceremonies conducted the evening with humour and gravitas - going around the company for a spot. There were songs from Sussex, songs from the locality "...collected by Rafe Vaughan Williams from Mrs. X's mother..." as one old boy said before singing it. Some lovely concertina playing by 'Catter Alan Day (thanks for telling me about the evening, Alan), and a wonderful comic rendition of "Hamlet" by a Scots lady with a broad Glaswegian accent! And, at the end, we finished off with ome carols and a spirited chorus of the Everley Brother's "Walk Right Back". The general standard of singing and performance was excellent.

If that's the state of folk gatherings at the moment, then it can't be all doom and gloom. I'll be back for another helping next month.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:47 PM

WF   That's what it's all about, and you can have a guest from time to time to ice the cake!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 05:26 PM

Oh dear I had really hoped to stay away.

Jim. When you pay for the venue, you can decide who goes on there (but nowhere else). When you don't, you can decide whether to attend or not, but your view of whether someone is "good enough" is neither here nor there. It's not up to you to decide. What part of "You are not in charge" don't you understand?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:58 AM

"What part of "You are not in charge" don't you understand? "
The part that tells me that if I buy a tin marked baked beans, I don't expect to find rice pudding - otherwise I have been conned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

Hairy Mary likes a Brazilian

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,ian fyvie
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:41 PM

Had a scan through the last few weeks of this thread - a few points from different parts...

The class system has a lot to do with attitudes in English folk clubs compared perhaps with clubs as commented upon in Canada and Australia.

I've attended clubs in three parts of England as I've moved around, and found a common almost standard elite of bottom rung middle classes doing the same standard thing of endorsing thier chums and discouraging anyone who obviously didn't go to Teacher Training college.

The joke is that many of these types given the spaghetti style handclap are pretty mediochre singers but are of the right 'sort' for the organisers to quickly promote to 'Resident". This contributed, IMHO, to the decline of the folk movement as these attention seeking types impressed each other but scared away newcomers curious about folk clubs.

I won't indicate where the elitist clubs, but will name a few which I found friendly welcoming over the years (they may not exist any more); Oxford University FC - the opposite of what you might expect!, Ducklington FC - with Pam Ayres in attendance sometimes in those days; and the much mentioned Lewes Arms Folk Club which is effectively repairing the damage done over the years by these self admiring elites noted above by a welcoming approach and the workshops. There are more - but I'd say the balance in my years supporting Folk was sadly in the God's Gift direction.

The best way in my experience is to start your own based on your own values.

I'd mention also an observation from the last 18 months. I used to support bar sessions quite a lot which ran successfully while there was mutual respect for all singers. In later years a new ethos pervaded which seemed to be based on listening to your chums and talking over non chums. Two particular performers who where frequently 'talked over' in those later years moved on with the club to function room based venues. They have both improved greatly since being in an 'indimidation-free' atmosphere.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM

Hi Ian - interesting perspective on the clubs. I must admit I was a little surprised by:

I've attended clubs in three parts of England as I've moved around, and found a common almost standard elite of bottom rung middle classes doing the same standard thing of endorsing thier chums and discouraging anyone who obviously didn't go to Teacher Training college.

Not surprised by your view of the class pertaining to some clubs, but by the "discouraging anyone who obviously didn't go to Teacher Training college" bit. I can't say that I've ever seen that particular attitude in any club I've been to, and certainly not in the sessions or singarounds I've attended. The hardest bit has often been to persuade younger or shyer or more inexperienced performers - or newcomers to the event - to get up and do a bit. To be honest, apart from immediate friends, I wouldn't know - or care - whether fellow performers had been to Teacher Training College (though I don't think such things exist now - they're all part of universities) or to prison.

Is there really a correlation between a club being welcoming or not, and the social makeup of its members? I've been in clubs with many different standards - some great, some crap - but not ever found one that was positively unwelcoming to a stranger. The usual comment I've had when I've done a spot has been, "Great to see you - do come again." (But we can't all be folk stars, can we... I'll get me coat!)

As for pub open mics - well, they really are a mixed bag, and I've certainly encountered the "do my spot and talk over the other spots" syndrome - but that's public bars for you. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:45 AM

Can someone fully explain the term 'open mic' for me - it's one I hadn't come across pre-Mudcat?
Thanks,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:57 AM

Jim - my definition (and here I open myself up to a possible hail of dissent), here in the UK, would be an event usually held in the bar of a pub, with the pub's customers on hand to watch and listen. An event where other customers come along and sing something, perform something, read something, tell jokes, do any kind of act that they choose. There's usually a performer/compere - paid or unpaid by the pub - who takes down names and introduces the acts.

No club membership - no entrance fees - no performing fees - no proscriptive genre - no prizes. Just step up with your performing frog and do your act. A chance for entertainers, in the broadest sense of the word, to try their act out on the public. Open mic = open to anyone and anything.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM

Jim - should have added, of course, that some folk clubs also advertise "open mic" or "open stage" nights. The performers in these cases would be doing stuff in the context and environment of the club. We used to call these by that quaint old term "Come-all-ye"...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:16 AM

Open mic joke: A skeleton goes into a bar and says, "Pint of bitter and a mop please."

I'll just sneak out now...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:37 AM

There are SOME open mics I have attended that seem to concentrate on new singer/songwriter music. I must add there are many I have been to as Will has described as well. It seems, to me at any rate, that the more traditional pub will put on the type Will describes - sometimes with keyboard/synth backing if required. Much akin to the old style pub singalong round the piano. If I go into Manchester, or any city, however, I have found open mics in contemporary city pubs and clubs tend to be much more a showcase for predominantly young and contemporary acts and bands.

Just an observation.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:02 AM

Will and Dave,
Thanks for that - I felt a bit like the judge who asked the jury during the Lady Chatterley trial - "and would you like to think that your servants had read this book?"
Much wiser now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:42 PM

I think that "open mic" implies amplification.

But I didn't come here to say that. I came to say this: -

I have today concluded that the music is not dying,

See my recent post here

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

This past Thursday our monthly folk club (Blackmore in Exhile, Rose and Crown, Writtle, Essex) was visited by a young musician from Cornwall.

He evidently was visiting friends who were in the pub proper downstairs and heard the club singing upstairs in the function room. He stood at the door for 1 or 2 songs after the mid session break, then asked is this a folk club? He went on to say that he was in a folk group from Cornwall, and could he sing one song.

The organiser and most of us welcomed him. He borrowed a guitar and proceeded to play and sing Irish Rover, encouraging the fiddler in our group to accompany. It was great. Then he asked "Can I do another?" Again most agreed. He launched into the Black Velvet Band. His enthusiasm was wonderful.

All the while he performed next to the doorway and did not enter the room proper. He then handed the guitar back after applause, said thanks and left. Felt a bit weird after the fact, as though he had highjacked the session for his bit and then was not interested to stay and listen to others. Then I figured he needed to join his friends downstairs again. Still it was strange.

Don't know if this was ill-mannered or not? I do wish he had told us more about himself, his name, whereabouts in Cornwall he was from, etc.

Who was that mystery singer?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

Who was that mystery singer?

VT - that was the Lone Arranger.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 12:30 PM

Boom-boom!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:02 PM

Was he the future of folk or the past(Y)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 12:20 PM

Re the mystery singer from Cornwall- Ewan MacColl used to do exactly the same thing- no, not sing the 'Wild Rover' but be in the room only when he was performing- so it's nothing new

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:37 PM

Guest. I don't know where you got that from but I saw MacColl and Seeger perform in dozens of different venues on dozens of occasions.

I cannot remember either of them behaving in the elitist fashion you describe.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: IanC
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 04:58 AM

Sounds like the guy just had to rejoin his friends. Why put any other spin on it?

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:41 AM

"Re the mystery singer from Cornwall- Ewan MacColl used to do exactly the same thing- "
Never did - very seldom, if ever visited clubs casually - usually too busy - but would love to know where this particular legend came from - I'm collecting them with a view to compiling a book of them.
As much as I'd love a reference to MacColl borrowing a guitar, I'll pass on that one as his adventures as a guitarist are amply covered by Peggy in The Ewan MacColl Essential Songbook.
MacColl and Seeger made it a point to sit through all the performances wherever they were booked to play - not just out of good manners, which it is, but they were intensely interested in what was happening on the folk scene and constantly complained of ot having time to go and find out for themselves.
On the other hand, I was often an observer to visitors to MacColl's Singers Club turning up, requesting to sing and then returning to the bar, having asked the person on the door (usually my wife Pat) to "Give me a shout when it's my turn".
On the rare occasion their demand was complied with, they would go up, do their bit, then disappear into the night without bothering to find out what kind of club it was, leaving their name, "in case you want to book me".
Who cares who that mysterious singer was?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:02 AM

When McColl and Seeger played a folk club nearby in 1985 they had to be called upstairs for their two spots.

To be fair, before the first half spot, I was with them in the snug interviewing them, but were with their driver and others in their party sat having a soft drink before their second spot.

There were times when I was in a band where we may have been away from the concert room before coming on, but to be honest, it would have been that we hadn't seen each other for a few weeks and we needed to work out what we were going to do once up there. This was sometimes misconstrued. Sad because I always enjoyed the variety of floor turns before a paid guest.

These days, most "folk clubs" around are singarounds, and in open pubs. Fine, and I go to a few when time permits.   But I personally prefer the concert style in a function room.

I suppose it is the difference between performing and sharing songs. In the latter, it would be in my opinion very rude to ignore others, whereas the former allows for picking and choosing more.

How many of us have timed the downing of our pint to coincide with anticipating a person playing next who you reckon going to the bar is a better priority?

It's alright. I get angry when having to stand to let people get past five mins before the end of the football match too......

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 07:49 AM

"When McColl and Seeger played a folk club nearby in 1985 they had to be called upstairs for their two spots."
Interesting on two counts Musket.
For the reasons I said, MacColl usually insisted on staying through the whole proceedings of a club - his habit of remaining on stage during the interval was somewhat cattily described as "holding court"
He requested that members of the Critics Group followed the same practice and "let us know what's happening out there".
The fact of their having a driver also interests me as it was their practice to provide their own transport so as not to be tied down to leaving when their 'lift' did or of imposing on anybody to leave when they wished to.
One of the pleasures of their visits to Liverpool and Manchester was to get an eyeful of their beautiful old black French Citroen, complete with running boards.
It certainly wasn't because they were worried about the drink-drive laws - neither of them drank to excess while performing, Ewan usually confining himself to one pint throughout the evening
Peggy, on the other hand, was a fanatic about not drinking alchohol while singing because she insisted it ruined her singing voice.
I remember the hilarity on the night when the late Bruce Dunnet weaved his way through a crowded Singers Club, dubiously eyed her half full pint of water and asked, "Fid ye like me tae tap up yer glass o' gin there lassie?"
I would be very interested in the interview you recorded with them if it's still in existence Musket.
I'm still hoping to persuade Salford Working Class Library to add our collection of MacColl material to theirs in order to expand it into a full blown and accessible archive of his work in time for his 100th anniversary.
Still looking for a go-between in the UK if anybody is interested.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:00 AM

I get angry when having to stand to let people get past five mins before the end of the football match too......

See it as an opportunity. Surely people-watching has got to be better than watching t'Owls... :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:19 PM

MacColl did a lot of good things & wrote some tremendous songs & for the most part I agreed with his politics, but he was very opinionated & his treatment of ordinary 60s folkies left a lot to be desired.. he might have been a champion of the 'People' (like Ho Chi Minh) but a man of the people he certainly was not- 'elitist' sounds a fair description to me

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:08 PM

I didn't set out to have a pop. This was towards the end of his time and he wasn't too well that night. During the interview he did speak of people seeing him in his classic pose of sitting the wrong way round in a chair holding fort. It does occur that if he were well enough he may have approached the evening differently. Peggy certainly performed a few more than normal on her own that night.

I have been on the receiving end of his sharp tongue mind. I did think it funny that he said singers should sing songs indigenous to them, then sang Scottish ballads in that odd yet nice affected Scottish accent that he picked up from school in er.. Salford. In the meantime he asked me why a Derbyshire lad living in Nottinghamshire would wish to sing a Somerset song.

Probably didn't occur to the old bugger that I liked it so wished to share it. ... or that as a miner still at the time, I wouldn't sing a mining song for all the beer in the cellar. Geography teachers and social workers were far better at singing of how hard it is downtthe pit than I could ever be. They could keep a straight face for starters. ..




I can hear you Mr Shaw, ,blaspheming again. We may have to set up a court with a gnome looking judge to sort out our differences if we are to con the world into buying into our new religion (see BS threads for anyone else reading this and scratching their head or arse.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 05:24 AM

Guest. "'elitist' sounds a fair description to me".

I'm not sure whether you're the same 'Guest' who accused MacColl of sitting outside folk clubs until he was due to go on, or whether your comment about elitism refers to my refutation of that accusation. If not, then my apologies.

However, my use of the term elitist referred solely to this alleged habit. I was not referring to his attitude towards other singers, audiences etc. That is a completely different argument.

Please do not confuse the two. If indeed you have.

BTW. It would be extremely helpful if you identified yourself.