Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Spot on Jim - is there anything else to say - I doubt it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

I can't remember, Bryan, sorry:-( It was on one such discussion when I mentioned that I told people to expect anything on a singers that someone told me I was not doing a good job of selling the club! If I could remember I would tell you but it is too far back to look up now.

You have not said where and how I misrepresented you yet. I suppose paying a compliment that went a little far is misrepresentation to a certain extent but surely that is not what you are refering to is it?

Jim - You are right. To perform properly you do need to achieve a minimum standard and if all performances at folk clubs fell below that then I would be 100% behind you in saying that poor performance will kill off folk clubs. However (there's always one of them isn't there:-) ) There is only a very small proportion of people at our club who fall below it. I can honestly say that amongst the dozens and dozens of people who have sung at our club only two have fallen well under. There are a number who will also sing self penned angst driven dirges and other stuff that is far from my cup of Earl Grey but they do, at least, perform them well.

Funny thing is that, of late, we have been getting more people at singers nights than on some of the guest nights! And I would say that over half the audience changes between the two. I would suspect that we get far more Critics Group on guest nights and far more Muriels on singers but I have not yet confirmed that theory!

Anyway, point is, I find myself in the position of agreeing with you entirely about the minimum standard but running a club that does offer a bit of flexibility for the untrained. Maybe our singers nights are more like workshops? They are certainly very informal and people can either 'Take the stage' (Well, empty bit of carpet) or perform from where they sit. We chat a lot and have offered help and advice to a number of people. Some ignore it. Some improve. None have, as yet, taken offense. Well, maybe the guy with the electric guitar turned up too loud took the huff when told to turn it down. But even he returned a couple of weeks later:-)

At the end of the day some clubs run for years. New ones open. Old ones close. All for different reasons. The standard of performance may have a lot to do with it but the style of the club, it's organisers and guests play a part. More importantly, it's audience decide it's fate in the end.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:16 AM

well i don't agree.

Its the human dimension and the absence of 'standards' (sounds like a bloody OFSTED report!) that make it edgy and worthwhile and something dufferent from all those other middle class pools of iniquity and mediocrity that get all the arts council grants.

When someone's shite, they look for the escape clause in reality and sure enough they wash on the shores of the folk club. Then true enough you get the nightmare scenarios where you have ask them to piss off and torment someone else - eventually.

the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it.

And yes, I DO think that 'wanting to' is important. In fact I think if you don't wake up every morning wanting to do folkmusic (even if life has other activities mapped out for you) how the hell do you hope to hit the ground running when you do stand up there to sing.

And I love that bit:-

if we lose people ...tough!

We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round.

Folk music without the folk is nonsense. And live with it - a lot of 'em can't sing for toffee! But its still worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round.[quote Wld]
so why havent the whole population of Ireland, pissed off?why is it that in Ireland, traditional music is appreciated.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

But surely wanting to on it's own isn't enough is it WLD? It should be accepted that those who want to sing should be allowed to but somewhere along the line they will want to be good as well won't they? They should want to please other people shouln't they? OK - they may do it just to please themeselves but there is a word for someone who uses self-satisfaction extensively isn't there? :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:10 AM

Sorry, I didn't think that there was anything I needed to answer.

"would you apply the same criterion to painting, acting, sculpting, opera, jazz (or even being an electrician)....... if not, why not?"

The case of an electrician is an obviosity (or so would a driving licence be). Some activities require things to be done in particular ways for safety reasons.


Painting - (I assume you mean picture painting not house-painting) - I'd let anybody do it any time for anyone - I am wholly uninterested in it. Indeed every so often one does see exhibitions and I think "Why is this here?", but if someone wants to put thier piece up, whynot? Indeed if one applied "standards" there would be large swathes of artists whose visions were it seems wholly unaccompanied by any standards of draftsmanship or depictive ability, and whose work was rejected and condemned by the established of their days, but are now hailed as genius.

Acting - again I don't give a damn, but what I have seen of amateur dramatics again shows that if someone wants to participate they are permitted and encouraged. My late wife used to run the youth section of an Amdram thing and I recall two young wannabee actors (actually they were there becase the girl/boy ratio was such that it was like shooting fish in a barrel) who were dyslexic. Ordinary standards of "read this and recite it" would wholly have excluded them. One turned out to be a gifted comic who stopped one musical he appeared in so that the audience could laugh themseles nearly sick, adn the other won a best actor award at a Duncan Rand festival for a sinister and subtle portrayal of a yong hoodlum (adjudicator's words, pretty closely).

Sculpting - again I don't give a damn, but the whole modern sculpture movement depends on rejecting the "greek statue" approach and does not I think depend on technical ability but upon some vision (that I wholly fail to see).

Opera - its function is the bel canto. In that it differs from folk music. But if one applied standards of appearance or acting ability to opera singers many would fail.

Jazz - in general today technique seems to be much admired, but do you remember the experimental jazz of teh 60s? It was impossible to discern melody or rhythm, and I certainly would - if asked "is this music" have answered "No" - but in retrospect it is (in parts) hailed as of excellence. Was it not said of Charlie Bird Parker that if one deconstructs his work much of it is out of time and out of key?

The fact of the matter is that folk song is different. It is not just history (although I am keen to know if the historical element - whereas many others are not). It is not just performance. It is the outlet of the community, and in fact you geld it if you do not take it (like Cromwell's portrait) "warts and all". Or, to put it another way, "Let the people sing".


"Is the singing of folk songs an inferior pursuit to all of these?"
No. But it is different and it does not depend on "standards". If it did, and one had to smile like a beauty queen, dress from Brooks Brothers, intone like Pavarotti (who, incidentally, I think was often sharp), enunciate like John Gielgud, emote like Nirvana, it would not be folk song.


"I believe that it lies within the abilities of most people to sing - as long as they are prepared to put in the time and effort."

Some can sing better than others. I would kill for John Barden's golden tonsils or Ian Bruce's driving ring to the voice. But I do what I can with what I ahve got and mostly I think I have found ways. But I know one snooty bitch whowhen running a song session will call at least two morons before me because they have been members for longer - and she alleges I sing through my nose. Not her call My singing. I'll do it how I want (and I am shedloads bette than she is anyway, much as I disapprove of self aggrandisement). But it's not my call or yours or hers to say that someone may not sing. It intrinsically involves placing the decider in a position of power over the singer, which power may be wrongly used.




"'Superior', 'judgement' and 'exclude' are all loaded words that only serve to avoid the main issue."

THe are words of disapproval in this context - but they are the right ones. You, like that bitch, are putting yourself forward as the arbiter - and that can only be on the basis that you know better (which you may, but that's for someone else to say, not you). What you exercise is undoubtedly judgment. And the consequence is that you plan to and do exclude those who do not do it your way. You in particular have paid your dues, and I value what I know of your work, but it is so long since you have walked in the shoes of someone with less history that I think you have forgotten the trepidation involved when one starts. Your judgment, and it is the only word I can think of for it, does shut others out, and thereby wounds their feelings.

"Nobody, as far as I can see, is attempting to "sit in judgment on" or be "superior to" or "exclude" anybody - we are simply asking that a performer reaches a certain (not particularly high) standard before they sing in public - what is wrong with that?"

It is internally self-contradictory. You will bar those of whom you do not approve.


"For me this whole question revolves around a piece of contempt that has plagued the revival from the word go - "it takes no effort, thought or talent to sing folk songs". Do you believe this?"

What an aunt Sally! The better you are, the better you are - although the polish should not replace the content.

"If the answer is 'no', why is it unreasonable to expect that a new singer first puts in the effort, thought and time in order to develop their talents to the level where we can all sit back and enjoy their singing?"   

I would accept "wish". The word "expect" is wrong. In the light of what you say about the standards of young singers these days (yes, that is me putting up an aunt Sally too, but you see how it looks) plainly you do not in fact expect any such thing. You expect that many will NOT do the things you wish they would. Me too, but I don't say that I have any right to stop them doing as they do. You in fact go further than expecting. You seek to impose your view.

"Again I ask, don't we owe at least that much to to the people who made and passed down the songs."- asked and answered.


"Folk song has yet to find its place in the sun in Britain, it will never get that place without the work being put in."

Actually I think it did, probably in about the early or mid 60s (when I was not interested, far too keen on rock then) one it had sloughed off the fascination with Americana and we ahd got the Young Tradition and Martin Carthy etc getting into English folk song. Now Martin Carthy's work was always technically excellent, but if you listen critically to the first Young Tradition album, it would not be cmmercially released today without a lot of technical cleaning up - ragged beats, wobbly pitch, Peter Bellamy missing falling closing notes time and again, verses omitted from well known songs.

It wasn't the work that made it great then, and it isn't "standards" that make it marginal today. As I said, listen to karaoke nights, plenty of dross there and words on a TV screen, but thronged.

It would be so nice if we were all bettter than we are. But it does no good to dump on people because it was better in your day.

Sorry, Jim. I admire you and what you have done. But there are other judges or wannabee judges who do not merit the same respect, and if you take the power to judge so will they.






And as for you Al - as a good socialist I utterly condemn your view that the working class cannot achieve academic excellence, or that it ought not to interest them. Folk song is set in and springs from the foundation of what made teh working class. Remove it and they are one step closer to rootlessness, altough we all need our roots and to knwo them. I wish I could sing and play like you, but I wish you thought like me!


Sorry to go on so long.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:47 AM

I'm confused. Why is the above from Richard Bridge signed Jim Carrol? :-S

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

Could they, perchance, be one and the same person??????!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

Agggghhhhhh
(The real) Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:37 AM

Jim Carroll

I hung on to see if there were any answers to the questions I asked Bryan and Richard in my last few postings - there weren't of course, and I should have known better than to expect any.

And a while ago YOU accused ME of being snide.

I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening over to non-singers, after all isn't that "what it's all about".

I give about as much thought to this question as I do to how I will spend the money when I win the lottery. It is so unlikely that there is no point worrying about it.

But... just for the sake of argument, let's look at this scenario in detail. A group of people we have never seen before turn up one evening and express a desire to do a floor spot each. There are quite a few regular floor singers but we might manage to get everybody on for one each, especially if the residents hold back. What would you have me do? Demand references? Subtly question them to try and find out there background? Take them out to the loo for a quick audition? Refuse to put them on in case they weren't any good? Or say "Welcome. Glad to see you. (That'll be £3 each.)"?

I can't recall being involved with a club since the the late sixties which hasn't either organised a singers workshop or had one on hand if required.

Workshops

Ooops! That page needs updating.

I agree with Richard when he says "Sorry, Jim. I admire you and what you have done." but a lot of us have been answering you questions for a long time and are beginning to realise the complete futility of trying to persuade you of anything.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM

WMD
"We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round."
No - they/we (I was one of those soldiers) pissed off when we were offered a diet of badly performed material at 'folk clubs' which could range from The Beatles to Borodin - not because of the imposition of standards.
"the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it."
Must tell that to Tommy Peoples the next time he turns up at our local session.
Thanks for that; it sums up perfectly all I was trying to say about the contempt folk music is held in (even by some of its so-called advocates)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

Can I presume that the accusations of misrepresentation and sarcasm are over now? Thank you. No apology required.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

David el Gnomo

Can I presume that the accusations of misrepresentation and sarcasm are over now? Thank you. No apology required.

Whatever.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:07 AM

What does 'whatever' mean in this context? I am never sure. I have noticed that kids say it a lot but with me being an old fogie it seems to loose something in the translation:-( I suppose I am out of touch with teen culture. Maybe you can help me out, Bryan. Are you dismissing me? As in go and do whatever you want? Or are you agreeing with me? Whatever you say is correct for instance. It is important to me to ensure that I don't misrepresent you but if I don't understand what you mean it does make things rather difficult!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:05 PM

"the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it."

Wld, where on earth did that idea come from? Who are these 'people'?

Dave, I'm involved in running Shammick Acoustic in Combe Martin, N. Devon - you'd be welcome any time. Where are you? n (I'm sure you mentioned it somewhere in the last 450 postings, but life's too short... :-) )

Jim, I know you and The Snail rub each other up the wrong way, but I have to say that there are so many good singers at the Lewes club that The Snail is involved with that the odd poor singer would not destroy the night. In addition, the club puts on workshops on just about every subject within folk music that you can think of, and I'm sure that any not-so-good singers would be strongly encouraged to attend any suitable ones. And they are certainly not dependent on guest nights to keep people coming to the club!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:22 PM

I'm in Salford, Manchester, Barbara. I will keep details of your place for future reference and if you are ever up our neck of the woods be sure to visit Swinton Folk Club

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:27 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Barbara.

Barbara was too modest to say that she and Tom will be running a ballad forum for us in November next year.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

Phew is it getting warm in here?
My personal experience of "folk clubs" is limited.
I have been to about 40 music venues of the kind where loud PA is not used.
I have once been made to feel less than welcome when I overheard the organiser say,in what I thought might be a derogatory way" oh its not traditional then?"
But even there at the end of the evening a very elderly gent who told me he was a club member of long standing said he had enjoyed my songs and that his wife particularily liked one of them and thanked us for turning up,would we please come agin if we got the chance.
All the others are brilliant and welcoming and accomodating and supportive.
They vary a lot in the way they organise the time available.
And I am not one who would sulk a the chance of listening to music instead of playing.
Some are more based on traditional old songs and tunes,some have a more mixed set of regular performers.
I have even been allowed to play at the Villans excellent club Faldingworth live.
The point I have so long windedly been trying to put is that manners in a folk club should be the same as they are in the rest of life.
seeing each other as equaly important and treating your fellow music lover with the respect you would wish them to show to your mum ,wife,daughter or yourself.
Its a shame, but although you can make the club the bastion of the music you prefer,the manners are going to be largely the same as those outside.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Barbara
Sorry to have given the wrong impression.
I may not/don't agree with Bryan, but I certainly don't wish to offend him, or take our points of disagreement personally. I've always enjoyed our arguments and have come always away with knowing more that I knew when I started out.
Vigorous discussion is not animosity - not as far as I'm concerned anyway.
I know there are two clubs in Lewes; in my Singers Club days we always co-operated with the one Vic Smith was involved in, but based on what I've heard I have the greatest respect for both of them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:23 PM

Bryan,
Quickly - in middle of something.
"Take them out to the loo for a quick audition? Refuse to put them on in case they weren't any good? "
Sorry, crossed wires - the case I cited was of somebody who came back week-after-week for a year - I (mis?)understood that your policy was to allow people to sing whether they could hold a tune or not as a point of policy.
For me there has to be a point where you say - "go off and do some work".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

So, instead of a question left unanswered I now have two! Will someone let this poor little stupid gnome know whether I have mirepresented anyone and whether 'whatever' is a put down, an agreement or just a random phrase?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM

"the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it."

Wld, where on earth did that idea come from? Who are these 'people'?"

Martin Carthy and Robert Johnson are the first two that spring to mind.

its not four beats to a bar music. Its better than that. Take as many sodding beats as you need!

why hasn't the population of Ireland pissed off. perhaps they didn't know about the cheap Ryanair flights....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:33 PM

Funny, a post of mine has disappeared. Jim's name in my post was bad editing on my part. I needed to quote what he had said to respond sensibly to it, and I quoted a bit too much.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:38 PM

You are all going round in circles. Louis Armstrong said "All music is Folk Music. I ain't never heard a horse sing" I think the aim of this thread is just self perpetuation. Mr Bridge, do you agree? Tone Deaf Leopard were slammed for doing just that! I'm getting my coat, how about you?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

How wuld he know? He was not a folk musician.

I ahve been quite sparing in my comments - look at how few times I ahve posted.

But if you want to start on the horse definition I WILL TURN UP THE VOLUME and query your rationality.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM

Wld, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying, but there is a profound difference between not *choosing* to keep a strict beat, i.e. rhythm, and not being *able* to do so. I am quite certain that Messrs. Carthy and Johnson, along with many other able performers, *choose* not to do so.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:00 PM

Well, I did think I'd finished with this thread and yes- you were quite sparing - and I thought I was being THE voice of rationality here.
That's why I used that quote. Forgot that even that's contentious so, goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

I've seen seriously good artists rejected by audiences who simply couldn't understand where they were coming from.

I just think we need to be as accepting and appreciative as possible. What was it Oscar Wilde said, the truth is rarely pure and never simple - and I think that goes double with this music.

To be honest there is a lot of recorded folk, and I simply cannot understand wherein the greatness lies. Only this week I saw an artist I had been looking forward to seeing for months and hated what he did.

He wasn't bad at what he did, got a standing ovation - but I didn't get it, and I couldn't wait for him to shut up.

we can all be wrong.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:42 PM

But do we all have to be wrong together in the same time?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:11 AM

I think the thing is Tim, we're all wrong about a variety of different things.

Take BB's point about trad musicians not 'choosing' to play in strict rhythm.

if you want to see a man suffer, take a look at Alistair Russell's excellent dvd on how to play Celtic guitar. he plays all thse jigs and reels really slowly so beginners can see what he's doing - and you can just tell that every little muscle and ligament in his hands is straining to do 'do it properly'.

Of course, when he goes up to speed. the whole nature of the thing changes - there are all sorts of uneven sustains, and mutes, and sudden brilliant slashes with a plectrum. the guys brilliant.

is he choosing? I don't think so - the music is choosing. the melody drives it. He can do no other.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:34 AM

This point is so fundamental to what we/I do that I'm happy to pursue it until it rides off into the sunset.
I read through Bryan's posting of the Lewes programme of workshops with enormous admiration. Why the hell is he even suggesting giving floor space to non-singers when his club obviously has the wherewithal to make them in to good ones. It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me.
Some time ago on another thread somebody took this argument to its logical conclusion (I think I remember who it was and I'll look it up if necessary). They suggested that not only should bad singers be given a platform, but good singing was detrimental to folk song because it put off the not-so-good ones (where's me cyanide pill!).
Bryan
".....but a lot of us have been answering your questions for a long time and are beginning to realise the complete futility of trying to persuade you of anything."
Ten years or so ago I would not have dreamed of taking part in any of these arguments - I would have sat on my hands and said nothing. I walked away from the revival rather than staying and arguing for what I believed to be right.
Shortly after Pat and I started to collect we realised that we knew very little about our singing traditions (there is virtually no information available from the traditional singers point of view). So we switched our emphasis from head-hunting songs to gathering information which we believed was rapidly disappearing. Our recordings are as much a body of information as they a collection of songs.
As far as I am concerned arguments such as this one are part of my learning curve. I am certainly open to persuasion, but it has to fit in with what else I have learned elsewhere over the last (jeeze - has it really been 47 years). No - I'm not going to roll over on command and have my belly scratched (well - maybe if you ask me nicely!), but please don't suggest I'm not open to new ideas; I most certainly am if they are logical and well made.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:32 AM

Don't be sily Al - that's the way he hears it. It is his interpretation of the music that drives, not the music itself. If it was the music itself then everyone would hear it the same and the way we play or sing the songs would never alter, whereas we know that excellent musicians can interpret songs differently.

Take (not a folk song) the Freddie and the Dreamers interpretation of "If you gotta make a fool of somebody" with the wrenching Bonnie Raitt version

Or take the established practice of doing "Ride On" slower than a snail and compare it to John Barden's driving version.

Or in folk music, consider the previous versions of pretty well everything (folkish) that Fairport or Steeleye recorded with those later recorded versions.

It's the musician who chooses. Do you really think all those songs were in 5/4 before Martin Carthy decided he liked that time signature?

But to go back to manners - it is of course bad manners for someone to stand up and screw up. It is equally bad manners or worse to tell him/her so.

And so to standards. I screwed up "The Derby Ram" badly yesterday(in public). The guitar riff (yes, I mean riff) is not wholly easy, and just as I was having to divide my concentration between that and remembering the start of the next verse, I was tapped (with the best of intentions) on the shoulder to warn me that Ken's ferrets were about to fall onto the floor with their cage behind me (seriously). I lost it big style. I fell off the guitar riff in "Knight William" too (although I got that one back), but I still had non-folkies coming in from the bar next door to listen. I made NO mistakes with "Come Away Melinda" (see, I'm not completely anal about doing only "folk" songs) at the end of the afternoon, and I think it went down pretty well. But if you tell me that I'm going to have to audition, or to have others sit and tell me whether I am good enough or not - include me out of your place. You may think that a good thing, or a bad thing, but I am clear that it is a bad thing and that it inhibits the recollection, assimilation, and continuation of folk song in circles outside the hard core.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

Richard - please tell us who (apart from those of you championing crap standards) has mentioned 'audition'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Well Jim, I was about to pose just that question...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:02 AM

I believe that the the organisers of Westhoughton Fok Club did audition support spots - or at least ask for samples of their work. My apologies to them if that was not the case. Westhoughton was however a purely 'concert club'. All the top names were booked and they sold out of tickets (yes it was ticket only at times) for almost every night. They went on to win the Radio 2 Folk Club of the year award some time back but have now closed because the organisers could find no-one to take over from them:-(

Not sure what the point is but I am sure half the contributers here will interpret it one way and the other half chose the polar opposite:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:05 AM

Incidentaly - going back to folk club manners - Westhoughton had a 'season ticket' policy as well and a certain number of seats were reserved for season ticket holders - Just like at a football stadium. It was very frustrating when you could see empty seats and still not get in because they were 'sold out'. Wouldn't you think that the holders of season tickets would have the manners to show up or, at least, allow their season ticket to be used by someone else!

D.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:10 AM

Richard Bridge,you have imagined,that anyone here has talked about auditions,in the same way you imagined that I said I was good,you have accused me of being conceited, because I have a different opinion to you.
your problem is that you are interpreting other peoples posts,to mean something,that they dont mean.
I have said at least twice,that if I was guesting at a folk club,I wouldnt mention my opinions[on word sheets]unless someone specifically asked,I would then try to be diplomatic in my explanation.
   Isnt the most important thing ,that people [as well as/other than the perfomer] enjoy music that they pay to go and see.
the club organisers have to make some sort of decision ,about what music is provided[they dont need to audition people],if someone does a floor spot and is bad and shows no sign of improvement,the organiser hopefully can suggest ways of improving[hopefully in a tactful way]then in a couple of weeks give the performer another song,and sandwiching them between stronger performers.
to use the words of Mr Punch[thats the way to do it]

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM

After Barbara's calming intervention and Jim's assurance that he didn't wish to offend me, I spent some time this morning looking back through this thread and analysing what has been said so that I could prepare a reasoned presentation of our clubs policy, philosophy and motivation. It would have started with a description of the fantastic evening we had last night with the first booking of The Twagger Band.

Twenty people out of an audience of thirty performed (including fellow 'catter Will Fly) and not a dud amongst them.

Then I refreshed the thread to find -

Richard - please tell us who (apart from those of you championing crap standards) has mentioned 'audition'.
Jim Carroll

Do you mean me, Jim? If so, sorry, but I'm not prepared to engage with you on that level.

This thread is supposed to be about manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:52 AM

What was that about context?

Here is the quote

"audition, or to have others sit and tell me whether I am good enough or not"

That's exactly what you want to do - to tell other people whether they are good enough or not.

When I was in Chester in the 70s the "Mucky DUck" had all wannabe floorsingers come early to audition.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:07 AM

This is what amazes me, Bryan. 20 people performing. An average of 5 minutes each to do justice to a song and intro = 1 hour and 40 minutes just for the floor spots, assuming they did only one each. A break of about 15 minutes? Most clubs do the same, to sell raffle tickets, let people go to the bar, to the toilets etc. 10 minutes or so for doing the raffle, general introdcutions, parish notices etc. We are now up to 2 hours and five minutes in which the artists, who people have paid to see, have not had a sniff! If you start at 8:30pm and finish at 11:30pm that is hours, less the two hours and five minutes we have accounted for, give the artists 55 minutes in which to perform.

Don't get me wrong - I am not doubting you in the slightest. I just want to know how it can be done!

To counterpoint I will give you a (very rough) running order at Swinton. Firstly, we don't start until 9pm usualy - Our fault, we have pandered to the audience who don't seem to arrive till then! Hello and welcome from the MC, introductions, two floor spots - Say 15 mins in all. Artist is put on at 9:15 for, say, 45 mintes. It is now 10:00. 15 minute break (usualy extends to 20 minutes - again our fault) now at 10:20 Two support slots in the second half - 15 minutes again. Raffle and 'parish notices' - 5 minutes. It is now 10:40. Artist goes on for second half - 45 minutes takes us to 11:25. Goodnight, clear your glasses, encore - 5 minutes - 11:30 and the bar staff want to go home!

OK - we have had 90+ minutes of the artist but surely that is what people have paid their money for isn't it?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:09 AM

To be fair, I used the word audition in a somewhat rhetorical question when I was asking how I was supposed to know whether a floor singer was any good or not before I put them on.

That's why I assume that Jim's "those of you championing crap standards" was aimed at me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Tell people if they are good enough or not?

Well why not for gods sake, sometimes judgements have to be made.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:16 AM

Good point, Silas - Maybe it is good manners not to comment on a poor performance but is it good manners to subject people to poor performances on a regular bases by not advising the perpetrator what they are doing wrong? I don't know which is the greater evil but personaly I would tell them. In the nicest possible way of course:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

Richard ,but that is not what I am saying is it?
I am saying that club organisers,have a right to decide who sings in their club,they have an audience, they know their audience,they are the ones who have to pay the guest at the end of the evening,if they think a performer is going to have a negative effect over a period of time,thus making their club less successful,they have a right if they are financing the club themselves,to not let someone sing.
I have run folk clubs,in the past,and I can honestly say,I have never refused a singer a spot,but maybe I was lucky,or maybe in those days standards were higher.I can remember some very good floor singers who went on to higher things.,or who were established at that time but still did spots.
Pete Castle,Dave Walters,Julia Clifford,Steve Turner,DaveBryant spring to mind.
I do not wish to tell people whether they are good enough or not[which is why I dont run a club anymore]neither do I find it pleasant that other people have to do so.
but a club organiser has a right to decide who sings at his/ her club and that also includes their right to decide what guests they book,and other matters of club policy,including singing from scripts,that is up to club organisers not me,which is why I never say anything about songreaders when I am guesting at a club,it is not my business to comment on a club,providing they pay me at the end of the night.
my job as a guest is to provide a professional performance.
I am entitled to have an opinion here on Mudcat,without being called conceited etc.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:23 AM

Well, it really is the right thing to do, for their sakes as much as anything. Apart from the poor buggers who have to listen to the caterwauling, is it fair to allow them to carry on making arses of themselves week after week?

No, a polite but firm appraisal of their abilities is sometimes the only way to go.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

David el Gnomo

Don't get me wrong - I am not doubting you in the slightest. I just want to know how it can be done!

Well I wasn't the MC and I wasn't counting so I have to take Sandra's word for it but that's twenty performers not twenty spots. There were several duo's who, all except one, only got one song/tune. Although all the members of the band are very experienced, they haven't been working together long so they haven't built up their repertoire yet and only wanted two half hour slots. We offered them a booking after their first floor spot at the Royal Oak.

When I arrived only just before 8.00 the atmosphere was already buzzing. Sandra got things started promptly by starting to sing. Everybody sat down, shut up and listened. The interval was so short I almost blinked and missed it. Sandra is a very good MC and would never, in a million years, tell anybody they weren't good enough to sing.

We over ran 11.00 a bit but the pub doesn't close till midnight on a Saturday so that was OK.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM

Cool, that all makes sense - Thanks. We tend to give inividual artists one song and duo's two. Heaven help us if a seven piece band turn up on a guest night:-D I guess it goes a long way to explaining why your club can get more on than ours. I don't think that either way is perfect and no other will be all things to all people.

I don't think the comment about Sandra never telling anyone they are not good enough to sing is necessary - If you can get everyone on then do it! We have chosen a different way, no better or worse than yours, of running our club and yet we never tell anyone they are not good enough either. It may seem a little harsh to you that we do not get everyone on but I can assure you that the performers who do not get a spot on a guest night are well mannered enough to take it in good grace:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM

BTW - I have decided I know what to do when I visit Lewes. I just happen to have this Chinese song in 11:6 time, key of almost f, that runs for about 23 and a half minutes...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:15 AM

David el Gnomo

I just happen to have this Chinese song in 11:6 time, key of almost f, that runs for about 23 and a half minutes...

Looking forward to it as long as it fits the Sao Paolo 1954 definition of folk music although it would mean you were singing a song from outside your own tradition, you being a Spanish Gnome and all.

Last night was exceptional but it was a cracker.

I don't think the comment about Sandra never telling anyone they are not good enough to sing is necessary

It wasn't aimed at you.

Right! Session to go to. Trevor Arms, Glynde. 3.30 - 5.30 first Sunday of the month. Run by Valmai's husband Meic. "No bloody singing".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:42 AM

Jim Carroll said
I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening over to non-singers,
and elsewhere
on the Lewes, or any other Club.
and elsewhere
I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening

David El Gnomo said
She can also go to a host of other clubs, including Lewes

Dick Miles said
I notice Lewes Folk Club,are one of the few clubs that do this.

BB said
I have to say that there are so many good singers at the Lewes club

Please note that there are TWO folk clubs in Lewes that operate on a very friendly and mutually supportive basis. These are:-

1] THE LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB - Saturdays -
Website http://www.lewesarmsfolkclub.org/
Contact Valmai Goodyear at [e-mail]

2] FOLK AT THE ROYAL OAK - Thursdays -
Websites
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tinvic
and
http://www.myspace.com/royaloakfolklewes
Contact Vic Smith at [e-mail]

Otherwise, I have nothing to contribute to this turgid discussion.