Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

No, a polite but firm appraisal of their abilities is sometimes the only way to go
Would that more people were more forthright and less bloody happy-clappy and welcoming to the care-in-the-community brigade!
I'm with Silas - some people are utterly dire and need to be told that they're really not ready for public performing.
Sometimes, in very small doses, it provides a little light relief in a folk club, but it's rude to snigger too much, and it's probably not what the organiser actually had in mind. At other times I just feel a sense of frustration and emptiness - thinking to myself as the will to live ebbs away, "Why the f*ck did I waste one of my all-too-rare evenings out to listen to this drivel?"
If only every club was as perfect as the one in Lewes. Never been there myself, but we keep being told that it's a paragon, so I'll have to make the 300-mile trek one day to find out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Gervase said
the one in Lewes

AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:56 AM

Sorry, I meant the one in Lewes with a mollusc as ambassador. The other one doesn't seem to need so much hyperbole.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

I haven't much more to add to this discussion either - except to say that I was in the audience at last night's session at the Lewes Arms and it was an excellent evening. There was a guest band - "The Twagger Band" - and, if memory serves, 21 floor singers. With a couple of exceptions, every floor singer performed one song/tune and the standard of performance was extremely high. The club room was packed to the rafters and the whole atmosphere was great. I don't believe the club organisers would claim it as a "paragon", but it was certainly what I expected of a good, well-run, committed folk club. I can't speak for other areas of the country, but Sussex in general - and Lewes in particular - has a wide variety of clubs to go to. There's something for everyone, which is as it should be.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Enjoy the session, Bryan. Nowt on for me today (Apart from the new 'Sharpe' episode on the box which I am, (sad git that I am) realy looking forward to. Jon Harvison at Swinton tomorrow should be a cracker though:-)

My song fits in with no known definition of music whatsoever. I hope you are not going to tell me it is not good enough for your club just because of that are you:-P

Even if the remark was not aimed at me it was still redundant. Sandra managed to get everyone on, so there was no question of cutting anyone for any reason. Hence it was unnecessary to remark that she would not tell anyone etc. That's all I was saying.   

Sorry Vic - When I refer to the 'Lewes club' I think(!) I am refering to the Lewes Arms, I presume that is the one that Bryan refers to as well. Apologies for not making it clear.

Son #2 just rang - I have got an appointment tonight after all. Anyone fancy singing a lifting a 73kg cast iron stove out of a car and carry it to the house shanty? :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Bryan,
My 'crap standards ' comment was not aimed at you or anybody specifically (though it was prompted by a comment by Richard) - it was an opinion that if you don't apply standards you throw the floor open to singers who can't sing - that is my opinion based on my experience.
If you are allowed to use 'audition' rhetorically aren't the rest of us afforded the same privilege?
I have no doubt now that the Lewes club is a good one - how could I - but suggesting that this is the case throughout Britain flies in the face of the evidence to the contrary, again based on my own experience and, I suspect by the number of hits on this thread, by many others.
Saying that all's well as long as my club is ok is more than a little like - as we used to say in Liverpool - "Ding-ding; I'm on the bus".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:33 AM

'some people are utterly dire and need to be told'

tip 'em the black spot matey! Deposed! by the powers!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:40 AM

I have no doubt now that the Lewes club is a good one

Hello? Is anybody there?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:17 PM

yes Vic,there are two folk clubs in lewes,one partly organised by a belogerent Snail,and the other one organised by Vic and Christine Smith,my apologies.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

I was looking for a good example of the type of thing I was trying to explain. I think I have found it. Listen to this bloke. He can carry a tune if you can bear to listen carefuly but it is a prime example of someone who has not done his homework and falls short of the 'minimum standard'. Now, I am by no means saying that we have this bloke on at our folk club regularly but I have seen plenty of similar standard here and there. Unfortunately these people realy do think they are good and, unfortunately, at folk clubs we have no Simon Cowell to put them straight!

Those who have never come across them should count their blessings!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

Sorry Vic,
Didn't see your posting - this thread is becoming a little unnavigable.
I've already acknowledged that there are two clubs in Lewes and that when Pat was doing the Singers Club bookings it was yours she occasionally swapped guests with.
Have never been to either of them (think we only visited Lewes twice and both times came away with some wonderful books from your bookshops there (Songs of the Rump(Parliament not backside)).
Would be interested to know which of the clubs was 'visitated' by a gang of blokes (including collector extraordinaire the late Tom Munnelly) from our local here in Miltown Malbay just after the smoking ban was introduced in Ireland.
The story goes that one of our lads was found smoking outside the pub and was told "It's alright to smoke over here".
"Ah, doesn't seem right any more", was the reply.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:00 PM

"Sorry, I meant the one in Lewes with a mollusc as ambassador. The other one doesn't seem to need so much hyperbole."


I think it is a gastropod.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

PS to all,
Can I say what a pleasure it is to be on the same side as the Cap'n in an argument for a change - told you we should have gone ahead with the wedding Dick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

Well, I've never been called "belogerent" before. If I've achieved nothing else, at least I've brought The Captain and Jim together. (Let's see how long it lasts.)

There's obviously little point in continuing so I'll just post a couple of quotes from earlier in the thread that sum up our philosophy pretty well -

In forty plus years of involvement, at least twenty of those spent involved in singing workshops, I have never met anybody who is genuinely 'tone deaf'. True, some have to work harder than others, BUT ALMOST ANYBODY CAN SING if they work at it.

Why do people want to sing in a folk club? - because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are.

YES! That's why, if somebody says they want to sing we are quite happy to give them the opportunity (because they're worth it).

Both quotes are from Jim Carroll.

Bryan Creer (Lewes Arms Folk Club, Lewes, Sussex, UK)

(And, yes, we did get a floorspot at the Royal Oak, Lewes, Sussex, UK on Thursday. We were OK weren't we, Vic?)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM

Dave, you say you get a LOT of people like that! Wow!

I really can't imagine what you must be doing to attract them. That's astonishing. we only had one really bonkers type like that.

the audience communicated their feelings and we never saw her again. You do get some eccentric people - with strange ideas - but nothing as extreme as that. I think in a way - that makes it harder - if they are within screeching distance of normality.

However sooner or later something really cruel gets said, and lets face it - it must take a certain indifference to the generality of music making to get really weird - and as such they are vulnerable - because of their isolation. they take offence, and they're off! thankfully.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

A little hit-and-run Bryan.
Yes (almost) anybody can sing - if they work at it. If you have the facilities to help them why suggest putting them on before they've reached the stage when they can handle a tune and remember and make sense of the words? That, as far as I can see, is all that is being suggested here.
This is not about insisting on virtuosity, holding auditions, excluding people, prima donna(or don)ism, elitism, disliking humanity... or any of the other things suggested or implied on this thread; it is simply about trying to ensure that we all enjoy the singing and music presented at the clubs and about ensuring that we pass it on to the next generation in at least as good condition as we were lucky to have received it.
If we can't do that, perhaps it should stay on the shelf out of harms way.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:30 PM

Oh dear, it's hard to let go.

Jim Carroll

A little hit-and-run Bryan.

What? You said what you said and I agree. What's the problem?

But there is a point I have to settle before we can go any further. Do you believe that anybody is "championing crap standards"? If not me,then who?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM

Noooooo - WLD - We don't get a lot him but I have seen a few nearly as bonkers! Mind you, if we did get him I think it would work wonders. Imagine the publicity value of having a man that Simon Cowell hated:-D

I can easily attract nutters though. All I have to do is sit on bus minding my own business. And just look at the corespondants on this thread:-P

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:33 PM

David el Gnomo

I was looking for a good example of the type of thing I was trying to explain. I think I have found it. Listen to this bloke.

Absolutely brilliant. The bloke rips the guts out of the whole X-Factor concept.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

If you want to find teh word "audition" go to your google toolbar, hover or click on the down button to the right of the magnifying glass, opt for "find (on this page)" and insert "audition".

You'll find the first use is by one Jim Carroll, comparing some singers to one legged tarzans.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:51 AM

He did indeed, Bryan, and must be admired for that! The point is though that it is an extreme example of the type of thing we are on about under the 'bad manners for a performer'. I suspect that this guy either did prepare very carefuly to make the type of cock ups he did or, more likely, just thought he could go up there with no preparation at all and wow the judges.

If the latter is true it was very bad manners indeed and wasted a lot of peoples time. If you have never seen anyone start the wrong song, in the wrong key, then forget the words, then mumble some poor excuse, then start another song, in the wrong key, then you are lucky. If you have never seen anyone do the same month in and month out then you are very lucky indeed. This is what we are saying about some performers being bad and giving folk a bad name.

I hope no-one has ever given the impression that they feel the world of folk is all like that bloke. It is far from it and the vast majority of performers are excelent But remember all it takes is someone like that appearing to the general public (Ie non-folk club goers) and bang goes the reputation of folk. The media start to portray folk music a joke and a myth is perpetuated.

All I ask, can't speak for the others, is that there is an agreement that poor performers should not be representative of the music we all love so much. The general public will see one or two of them and tar us all with the same brush, so it is up to us to make sure the public do not see too much of it; whether by education or selection is another matter. Remember the old adage - If you like something you will tell one person; if you dislike it you will tell ten!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:53 AM

David el Gnomo

If you have never seen anyone start the wrong song, in the wrong key, then forget the words, then mumble some poor excuse, then start another song, in the wrong key, then you are lucky.

Of course, although not all of those at once as far as I recall. Even the best have the occasional false start.

If you have never seen anyone do the same month in and month out then you are very lucky indeed.

Sorry, but no. I don't know if it's luck or a consequence of our positive, supportive, "Yes you can." attitude that helps people gain confidence and improve.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

"You'll find the first use is by one Jim Carroll, comparing some singers to one legged tarzans"
More than a little disingenuous Richard - I used what I believed to be an amusing example to illustrate somebody aspiring to something they either were not yet ready for or (highly unlikely, in the case of singing) are incapable of.
I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED THAT ASPIRING FLOOR SINGERS SHOULD BE AUDITIONED, NOR HAS ANYBODY ELSE ON THIS THREAD, (not shouting - don't know how to underline) to suggest otherwise is misinterpreting what is being said, deliberately or mistakenly.
Bryan
"Do you believe that anybody is "championing crap standards""
Yes - of course I do - I've been listening to the 'near enough for folk-song' argument for forty-odd years; it still hasn't gone away and I believe there is much evidence of it on this thread.
Do I believe that you champion crap standards?
Quite honestly I find your own position utterly confusing. You obviously put in a great deal of hard work in making your club a success. You are obviously dedicated to the music. Yet you insist that the only criterion for giving singers floor-space is the desire to sing - that, for me is a guaranteed recipe for bad singing.
You haven't said (or maybe I've missed it) what you would do if faced with the situation we were faced with at The Singers Club. I don't know how many bad/non singers turn up at you club looking for a spot - if none, you are extremely lucky, but you are advocating something for the rest of us that is only an academic question for you.
If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.
The problem with bad singing is that they are like number 9 buses, if you miss one there's be another one along in a minute.
Much of Dave's above posting says exactly what I would like to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:18 AM

David el Gnomo,

I've been thinking about my postings on this thread and I apologize for making fun of your typo and also for the accusation of snobbishness, and anything else that may have given offense.

I try to be civil when discussing or arguing and I didn't live up to that toward you and on this thread.

I hope you will accept my apology.

Laurence Finston (my real name)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:34 AM

NOW THERE'S A POSTING WE CAN ALL LEARN FROM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:47 AM

But you do seek to insist, Jim, that people should not sing unless they are good enough.

I don't think that that's anybody's call but theirs, in general, although there will be times when any consumer can pick and choose.

We have enough masters, without adding more. Let the people sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM

I suggest (not my place to insist anything) that people be asked to reach a standard (tune/words/interpretation) before they sing publicly - for the sake of the audience, music, and for their own self-respect.
I believe that anybody can reach a basic standard with some work - surely it is not unreasonable to ask that that work is done before they become ambassadors for our music.
You're doing it again Richard - who mentioned 'masters' apart from yourself?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:26 AM

Jim - If someone rang you up enquiring about your club and said something along the lines of "I've never sung in public before but I've got a couple of songs I'd like to do because my mate said I should get down to a folk club as that's the sort of place where people listen to this stuff..." what would your response be bearing in mind the comments you've been posting regarding standards?

If it were me I would certainly give him an idea of how the club runs ie singaround or get up to the front to do your bit or even sorry we have guests with invited floor spots every week but please try the xxxxxxxx folk club down the road which would be better suited to you - here's the organiser's number. If he did decide that my club was the place for him I'd be mindful of the fact that he might be nervous and make allowances for that but I wouldn't ask him if he thought he was up to a certain standard. After he'd (or she) performed I might have a quiet word with him later to either give him some encouragement or give him a few pointers to improve on what he'd done that night. Hopefully advice would be taken in the manner it was given and we'd see an improvement over the coming weeks once he'd got some confidence.

Your comments would be welcome Jim.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

Jim Carroll

If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

There is nothing that explicit, I think it is probably just taken as read. There is certainly nothing that says that floor singers must come up to some specified standard before being allowed to perform. The interpretation of this as championing or promoting bad singing is yours and yours alone based on a complete failure to understand how we operate. It is grossly offensive.

I could also do without lines like "It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me."

If you can demonstrate that you are capable of being civil and are prepared to make an effort to understand points of view that differ from your own, then I am prepared to engage in debate with you. If not,I have better things to do.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM

Laurence, your post and apology is a welcome ray of sunshine in this age of never admitting wrong but I can assure you it is absolutely unecessary. I already said I am thick skinned and did not take any offence. My chiding of you for 'mocking the afflicted' was as tongue in cheek as I am sure your comment was.

Thank you anyway and rest assured that if we ever meet the first round will be on me:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bru
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:54 AM

I'd be interested to hear the answer to that myself, Mark.

As a relative newcomer to folk clubs and singarounds, I don't consider myself a performer, and certainly not a good singer. I haven't read every single post, but the general feeling I get, is that newcomers with little or limited talent are not especially welcome at many of the clubs organised or run by several posters on the Mudcat forum.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

I am happy to say Bru that there are many where you wiil rightly be welcomed and encouraged

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM

Bru

I haven't read every single post, but the general feeling I get, is that newcomers with little or limited talent are not especially welcome at many of the clubs organised or run by several posters on the Mudcat forum.

That is very unfair and misleaing. If you have not read every post why say newcomers are not welcome at 'many of the clubs'. There has been one instance of someone saying that REPEATED bad performances would result in the offender not being invited back. As far as I can see even this club will give newcomers a chance and then, if required, offer help and support. All the other postings I believe are saying that there is room at their club for newcomers who wish to improve.

You would certainly be welcome at Swinton on any singers night or, providing you are there early, on a guest night. Hope that clears things up but if I am wrong with my analysis please feel free to correct me.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:49 AM

I have read pretty much all of the posts on this thread (not in one sitting I hasten to add!) and there is nothing here that changes my mind that context is all.

I go to a lot of clubs and they are all pretty different. The 2 I attend most often are Buneston Folk Club and Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club (which I run). These clubs are 5 miles apart and couldn't be more different.

Burneston is a weekly club completely about participation. Anyone can pretty much sing or play whatever they want as well or badly as they are capable of..... no guests are ever booked and no money ever changes hands and everyone gets a warm round of applause. Long may it continue, it is a great place to learn and to have some fun.

Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club is a monthly concert club (with 2 full weekend events each year). The club is aimed at providing entertainment to a largely passive audience (though we do have a singaround after the "gig"). Excellence is what is expected from the main (paid) guest and a high standard is expected from the 1 or 2 support acts each evening...... I have had complaints from the audience on the one occasion when a support act failed to meet this standard. I would be unlikely (though it does happen on occasion) to book anyone for either a main guest or support slot who I had not seen live. On the few occaisions where I have booked without having "auditioned" the acts I will insist on hearing good quality demos of the line-up that is actually playing..... I reject full production CDs with multiple backing musicians where I am being asked for a gig by a solo performer or duo. I think this approach is correct.... I am asking the audience to part with (usually) £5 of their hard earned cash..... I will try hard not to put anyone on who fails to meet a high standard. So though everyone else seems to be avoiding the "audition" word I think it is a good thing........in the context of a professionally presented evening of quality folky "entertainment".

I'll get me banjo.........

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM

" ... but the general feeling I get, is that newcomers with little or limited talent are not especially welcome at many of the clubs organised or run by several posters on the Mudcat forum."

I would like to express my outrage at this monstrous misrepresentation of what has been said on this thread so far!! Very few, if any posts, have advocated the discouragement of 'newcomers'!
I very much doubt if anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the majority of posts here could have come to that conclusion.

For the record here's what I wrote way back in the mists of time (29th October):

"Of course everyone has a 'right' to perform in public, if they are so moved, but with that right comes a RESPONSIBILITY not to alienate the audience. If a particular performer is a bit rough round the edges in the early days that's OK, and completely understandable, and even, more or less, acceptable. BUT if that performer is still ragged and unlistenable to a year (or two or three!) on, and it is obvious that he/she is not even attempting to develop his/her art then, I insist, that is NOT acceptable."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Earl
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

Well it seems to me that there are "Concert" folk clubs, Singarounds and places that are perhaps a fusion of the two ideas.

I think that if everyone just remembered that certain behavior is impolite to say the least fewer of us would be upset.

Someone said "Manners maketh man" and my (Edwardian) grandfather was very strict to his children on such matters and in turn to his grandchildren,

That's as far as I wish to go with this except to say that The Lewes Arms is my club (like The Snail and some other Mudcat people) and what we get up to there on a Saturday night invariably results in a successful evening for everybody attending.

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

I am off to do some playing and singing and a bit of practising,have fun, everyone.
remember life is short,and old age is just round the corner,do what you can do while you can do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Without wishing to state the bleeding obvious - you are, I hope , charging for people to come in on a singers night - so that they are 'buying in' to the ethos - albeit a small token amount.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

Warwick Festival a couple of years ago held an open mike for which you had to send in a demo for a slot. It was held in a pub bar during peak booze time, so I suppose this made sense from the point of view of the survival factor.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:14 PM

If you're still there, Vic, my apologies for not stating *which* Lewes club I was referring to. I'm pretty sure that earlier in the thread, it had been made clear that The Snail (Bryan) was involved in the club at the Lewes Arms, and the conversation then continued with that assumption, but I may be wrong and I haven't time to look through the whole thread. Bryan is a frequent contributor to Mudcat, and I suppose it's becomes a bit like knowing people, and things are taken for granted.

Anyway, sorry if we've upset you.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Mark
"what would your response be bearing in mind the comments you've been posting regarding standards?"
I can't recall anyone ever ringing me up in advance requesting a singing spot - In the unlikely case of it happening I would invite them along to the club and they would be given a chance to sing, as they would if they just turned up - there's never been any question of that as far as I'm concerned.
If they could hold a tune and make sense of the song they would be included fully in the proceedings - if they couldn't, they weren't, simple as that.
If the latter was the case one of us would approach whoever it was, sound them out and, if they showed any interest, they would be offered assistance, either on an individual basis or through the numerous workshops I have been involved in.
If they turned down the offer of help and continued to turn up, my own inclination would be not to invite them to sing again right away, but wait a few weeks and let them try again (and so ad infinitum, until they either showed progress or stopped asking).
What would you do in the circumstances I outlined originally (which was not a hypothetical case but an actual occurrence) and which has been distorted beyond all recognition in the ensuing discussion? - so I'll repeat it:
"When I was involved with The Singers Club we were regularly visited by a young woman who was totally incapable of producing two notes which related to each other. She invariably asked to sing and was allocated one song (not by me).
Over the year she attended she never improved; she was invited to attend our singing workshop but felt she didn't need it.
After a year the audience committee received a letter of protest from her and her friend complaining that she was only allowed one song."
Bryan
"If you can demonstrate that you are capable of being civil........"
It was never my intention to deliberately insult you or anybody on this thread, any more than I am sure it was never your intention to deliberately distort my argument by suggesting that I was proposing 'auditions' at clubs.
These subjects tend to become rather heated (on all sides) and, while I am not happy with some of the slagging-off that takes place, I take heart from the fact that people feel strongly enough about the music to be passionate about it.
"and are prepared to make an effort to understand points of view that differ from your own,"
Isn't it a little presumptuous to assume that, because I have not come around to your point of view, I don't understand it - I assure you, I do - I just don't accept it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:35 PM

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Without wishing to state the bleeding obvious - you are, I hope , charging for people to come in on a singers night - so that they are 'buying in' to the ethos - albeit a small token amount.
exactly WLD,once people pay,there must be a minimium standard,if you[the club] are in a public house,bums on seats,and liquor consumed comes into the equation,the publican has to make a living,if only six people turn up instead of 25[unless the six are heavy drinkers]because the standard is low,the publican will find something else and show the folk club the door.
people will go where the music is good,no problem if the organiser wants to hold the club in a private house,an audience of three men and a dog,no longer matters.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM

Goose, gander.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM

Jim Carroll

,It was never my intention to deliberately insult you or anybody on this thread,

Really? Telling me that I am "championing or promoting bad singing" is offensive.

"It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me." is offensive.

Implying that The Lewes Arm Folk Club is overwhelmed by non-singers is smearing the reputation of a well respected folk club. That is offensive.

I am sure it was never your intention to deliberately distort my argument by suggesting that I was proposing 'auditions' at clubs.

I did not do so. As I understood it, you were saying that merely expressing the desire to sing was insufficient reason to give someone a floorspot before they had achieved the required standard. I was demonstrating the impossibility of finding that out by offering a list of patently impractical ways of doing it. Apparently I was mistaken and you actually believe that floor singers should be allowed to perform and only told afterwards that they aren't good enough and not to come back until they've improved. I think all of our residents would baulk at such ill-mannered behaviour.

You may believe that you understand my point of view, Jim, but you do not. All your responses are incompatible with any level of understanding.

As for your strange lady of forty years ago, it seems The Singers Club were following the same policy that you describe as crass and letting here sing just because she wanted to regardless of her abilities.

Goodbye Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:41 AM

Bryan
Bye!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:47 AM

Bryan,
Sorry - I wrote that last posting in a moment of disappointment - I was enjoying our discussion.
None of your points accurately represent my position and are all debatable - but as you've decided to take your ball home there is little point in continuing.
If not being persuaded by the other person's argument is a crime, it is one that we are both guilty of; neither of us have shifted from our original positions.
Insults come in all forms - misrepresentation is just as insulting as harsh words - and far more dishonest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:18 AM

One thing that seems to be overlooked in this thread (although I'll admit that I've not read every post) is that most clubs are run by individuals or small committees who are investing their own money in hiring a room, booking guests, advertising etc. It seems to me that this entitles them to decide on the ethos of that club and to make the decision whether certain singers reach a good enough standard to be allowed to perform.

Whilst the number of clubs has sadly declined in recent years, there are surely enough of all types, ranging from the anything-goes singaround to full concert performance, to satisfy everyone.

There are plenty of opportunities for the novice to learn how to sing and perform, and I value that the folk world is more than willing to allow them this opportunity. I am less convinced by the argument that anyone, no matter how incompetent, has a "right" to sing. If some venues are willing to accommodate them, that is of course up to them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:44 AM

Another question is: What does a would-be performer sensibly do before going to a club and asking to perform? A simple guide might be:

(a) visit the club first to gauge the style and standard of the floor singers

(b) have a word with the organiser(s) to see if a floor spot on a future date is OK - and check whether that might entail learning 1, 2, 3 songs, etc.

(c) go away and practice the material they intend to perform at their 'debut' and make sure they have it ready to the best of their ability

(d) go and do the spot - and learn from any reaction, comment, advice, etc. that follows it

Sounds obvious, doesn't it? I've been playing for a long time but I would still visit, do an email or make a phone call, if possible, to a club before performing there for the first time - just to check on the protocol.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:54 AM

I think you are being very unfair, Brtan. Let's take one of Jim's comments that you find offensive -

It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me.

Then let us look at the comment in it's full context -

I read through Bryan's posting of the Lewes programme of workshops with enormous admiration. Why the hell is he even suggesting giving floor space to non-singers when his club obviously has the wherewithal to make them in to good ones. It seems a totally lemming-like bloody-mindedness to me.

What it looks like to me, and what I belive Jim means, is that he has enourmous admiration for the work being done by the workshops being run. The 'lemming like bloody minedness' may be a more colourful way of putting it that I would have used but I do not see any offence there. Just another way of saying 'Seeing as you have such excelent workshops, why would you want to put on poor performers?' Far from being an insult I find it quite complimentary and a very intelligent question.

I am sure Jim does understand your point of view, just as I do, and I am not sure who is misrepresentaing who here. A question I have not yet had cleared up btw:-) I think you will find that we all want the best for folk music. I also feel that, even though we all have different approaches, we all believe there is a standard that performers should be able to achieve. If not, why run the workshops?

I think you are taking offence where none is intended and continuing the argument unnecessarily.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:00 AM

Well, maybe Dave. What do you reckon to "championing crap standards"?