Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:39 AM

I started playing in folk/folk & blues clubs in the mid-60s, played in them in the north and in London, on and off, for about 15 years, and then did different musical things for over 20 years. So I've come back to that scene in the last 2-3 years, I suppose. What struck, me when I ventured back in, was the huge difference in range of style of clubs, and range and style of performers. To generalise a little:

Then: unamplified; no music stands; material ranging from US/UK traditional unaccompanied to acoustic accompanied; blues; the odd jazz bits; some jug band-type stuff; "folk baroque" (remember that?)

Now: PA systems here and there; music stands here and there; wide range of material from traditional unaccompanied to Abba; anything goes policy in many clubs; much more general "open mic/open stage" events in pubs

In short, the whole scene now is really quite different in many respects from what it was 40 years ago and, as a listener and performer, it's up to me to find the environment I find the most congenial. There's one club, not a million miles from me, which has the atmosphere of a social club, rather than a folk club. Almost everyone brings their music from which to perform their two songs. The songs range from popular folk (fill in your own blanks here) to Abba songs and are, on the whole, undemanding and cosy. The standard or performance ranges from reasonable to incompetent. I find the whole thing insufferable BUT - for those people who go and meet each other, week after week, at this club, it's a warm and supportive environment. I just prefer a different ambience and luckily, in my area, there's enough variety for me to find it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:58 AM

"We have heard a great deal about what being allowed to perform in public has done for the individual, no matter what stage has been reached, and precious little on what it has done for the audience/fellow performers/music - "me, me, me"."

More wise words from Jim Carroll - I totally agree. Of course everyone has a 'right' to perform in public, if they are so moved, but with that right comes a RESPONSIBILITY not to alienate the audience. If a particular performer is a bit rough round the edges in the early days that's OK, and completely understandable, and even, more or less, acceptable. BUT if that performer is still ragged and unlistenable to a year (or two or three!) on, and it is obvious that he/she is not even attempting to develop his/her art then, I insist, that is NOT acceptable. It is also inevitable that more discernible audience members will be alienated - especially if the performer attempts to hog the stage (as far too many do).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM

Imagine being able to call on the talents of someone like Alex Campbell, and then not doing for some silly ass idea you've got about what is the doctrinaire approach to folk music.   Alex was extaordinary. He had charm by the bucketload and he lit up nearly every stage I saw him on. Towards the end, maybe not quite so much - but he could have taken Ewan's projects to a whole new level of public acceptance. In retrospect - what a dumb decision for anybody to make!

Incidentally - its history who decides whether you've got a 'silly ass idea about about what is a doctrinaire approach to folk muic'.

I have noticed that actual combatants in this war are stuck with the rectal thermometer view of the situation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:08 AM

Snail,
I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.
We have heard a great deal about what being allowed to perform in public has done for the individual, no matter what stage has been reached, and precious little on what it has done for the audience/fellow performers/music - "me, me, me".
I'm sure that in some cases it is true that "if I hadn't been allowed to sing I wouldn't be where I am today.....etc". If it hadn't been for the army of 'practitioners in public' performing indefinable material they appeared not to think important enough to have worked it to an acceptable stage of performance, I might have continued going to folk clubs -as it was, I slung my hook and went off and did something else.
In my first posting on this thread I described a situation we were faced with at our club where somebody totally unable to sing in tune or remember the words of songs came back week after week and asked to sing. Over the year she did so she never improved; she ignored all offers of private tuition or assistance from our workshop.
She certainly wanted to sing - enough to write a letter complaining that we didn't give her enough floor-space. I'm sure if we'd offered her a six-song floor spot she would have leaped at the chance.
She met your criterion- she wanted to sing, the fact that she was incapable of doing so appeared to be beside the point - from her, and from your point of view.
Should we have allowed her to continue - should we have given her more spots - how about a six (or more) song spot - if not, why not? The desire was certainly there.
As far as I'm concerned, your 'wanting to sing' criterion is no different to Guest Referee's point:
"This is FOLK music we are talking about. FOLK sing/play folk music there are no standards, that's the fun of it."
For folk music, or any performance activity to survive there have to be basic standards. Is it being a Blue Meany to suggest that performers should be able to hold a tune and remember and make sense of the words BEFORE they take to the floor. If they use an instrument they should be able to tune it and play it competently. I am not asking for virtuosity, and I am not, as some people have suggested, talking about different levels of ability - I am talking of a minimum standard. Surely our music is worth that much effort?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:33 AM

No, Colin, One is taking a quote out of context, the other is misquoting. I was accused of misquoting. Not guilty.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

This thread has covered quite a range of topics.

To pick up on the point about using crib sheets: I suppose that the line is drawn in different places in different circumstances. A classical orchestra would not be expected to play its entire repertoire from memory, but a soloist in a concerto probably would be. Jazz musicians often read from scores, even if they go off into improvisations. A singer who read from a score might look a bit naff- abit like those pub singers who go out with their backing tracks and all their songs and chord charts stuck on a music stand infront of them, but if you have a singer who's accompanied by a brass section or a string quartet, I think that it's acceptable for the musicians to read. I saw Bellowhead a while ago and, if I remember correctly, some of them were reading from scores- not surprising as they have some quite intricate arrangements.

Regarding performance standards; I have enjoyed many a singers' night and singaround, though I've also been to some that have been pretty dire.

I've only walked out once- this guy sand a self-written song that consisted of seven minutes of rambling lyrics over disjointed guitar chords. He then launched into a second song, stopped after thirty seconds, said "sorry, I f*cked that up" then started again. By this time I couldn't take any more, so I went out of the room until he'd finished.

A friend of mine only goes to clubs when they have a guest that he likes. If a bad floor singer comes on he walks out. His view is that he hasn't paid his hard-earned,over-taxed money to have his time wasted.

So it's a question of where you set your tolerance level.

Some clubs have a policy of running singers' nights that are open to all, and only having invited floor singers on the guest nights. This seems to work- certainly in my experience, these are the clubs that can more easily afford to pay guests, as they attract the largest audiences when they have one.

On a slightly frivolous note, there is a fine line between "bad" and "so bad it's good". In the latter genre, I've thoroughly enjoyed the guy who sat at the piano in the corner of the roomand bashed out "Off to California" in the style of Les Dawson, then followed that with "Deck of Cards". (Yes, he was serious!) Then there was the bloke who performed "Another Brick in the Wall", accompanying himself on a mandolin. (By "accompanying" I mean playing more-or-less in unison with his singing.) I'd have paid to listen to these two all night.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:12 PM

Belching! Disgusting, Yeuch! Give me a good honest fart any day. Provied it is in the appropriate key of course...

:DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

SO what is the veiw on Belching in folk clubs?
Is it mandatory in some societies?
Is it just bad manners?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Colin Randall
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM

Richard! That's the argument people like me - journalists - use. Are you not an academic? Don't academics jump down the throats of journalists for doing what you just describe (as I often describe, case by case) as perfectly legitimate?

Colin

Salut! Live

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

Wild Guest, I see you type like The Captain. But my quote ended entirely before the words you say were omitted. That's what quotes do. They begin where they begin, and they end where they end.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Jim Carroll

More than a little snide I thought - have come to expect more of you; ah well!

Sorry, Jim. I don't really know the correct response when apparently being called on to defend someone else's point of view that I don't share.

Will comment on the crass idea that all you need is the will to perform...

Concerned that by voicing my own opinions here I might be bringing The Lewes Arms Folk Club into disrepute, I mentioned my suggestion that the minimum standard for performing in public was the desire to do so at our committee meeting last night. The general response was "Of course. That's what it's about. That's why we do it." followed by reminiscences from everybody about how they would not have got where they were without being encouraged to stand up and give it a try.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

I'd be interested Jim - it's always interesting to get a view of something from more than one perspective. The Harker book is quite interesting as at least a view on those times whatever his given perspective is. I must admit to have dipped in and out of it quite a bit.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:15 AM

We probably go to about a dozen clubs around our local area. We returned to the folk scene about ten years ago having been uninvolved for a number of years due to family/work.

A lot of the people in these clubs have become personal friends, and the social aspect of going to clubs is very important to us - virtually the whole of our social life centered around music.

The level of skill of these people varies enormously, but as they are friends we do not criticise if the performance is a bit on the weak side - I think many people who go to clubs subscribe to what we used to refer to in teaching as the "hidden curriculum" , and a lot will be lost if level of skill is overemphasized.

I you are listening to a paid guest that is different of course.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:55 AM

Jim - I'd be interested in seeing the symposium notes - if they're available online at some stage, it might be easier for you to let us know where they are than email them out.

No - Alex was definitely a "near enough" man! He was a rough diamond, as I recall. He was very much a hail-fellow-well-met chap in many ways but - and this was one of his less pleasant traits - he hated being upstaged by people he thought were better than him or more likely to steal his limelight. Particularly guitarists.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:23 AM

Black Hawk - Will,
The Critics Group was in existence for around 8 to 10 years.
It got through a great deal of work, mainly singing, but also including songwriting, instrumentation, acting, research.... and related subjects.
It was NEVER the intention of the group to "preserve what was perceived as tradition"; the main aim was to help singers develop their abilities and understanding of folksong and to create new songs using the old forms.
I have something like 250 tapes covering the work the group did and numerous others relating to Ewan's ideas. It would be extremely difficult, nigh impossible to sum up the work on this forum, though there are murmurings of putting something together in the not-to-distant future by some of us involved.
I include everybody interested in my offer of the symposium notes - they're by no means comprehensive or anything like perfect, but they're as accurate and honest an assessment as I could manage.
Ewan's feelings on the Group were summed up well in Peggy's introduction to the Ewan MacColl Song Book.
Incidentally, Alex Campbell was one of the leading members of the "near enough for folksong" school of thought; don't think he was ever asked to join the group - doubt it somehow!.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Guest Samuel Wild
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:43 AM

Richard Bridge,has mis quoted Dick Miles.Dicks post read .Iwas gigging before Eliza[that doesnt mean I am better just different]Richard   omitted the words in brackets.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:04 AM

I only learned about the work of the Critics Group many years later (doing other things). I recall getting drunk with Alex Campbell at a northern folk club in the mid-60s, and he made some very disparaging remarks about McColl and the Group, which I didn't understand (he was much drunker than me). However, this article seems as good a description of the Group's work as anyone could want. I can't say the ethos appeals to me, but I can see that the intention of preserving what was perceived as tradition was a worthy one to those participating in it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM

Guest Simon
Thats a load of bollocks.
I have only had Mom & Dad with child at my place.
You must be unlucky.
The majority of kids are well behaved, but once again, the minority ruin it for the rest.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

An honest na accurate assessment of the work of the Critics Group has yet to be carried out
Why dont you post one Jim?
As a 'dabbler' in folk music I keep hearing of the Critics Group - some good, some bad.
Everyone NOT involved seem to have conflicting theories which they usually put forward to 'back up' some claim they are making at the time.
As with the songs, the 'source' needs to be tapped & recorded before its too late.
I believe Diane was involved (& possibly others on this forum) & so a true picture should emerge.
Those of us too young, too far away etc. to be actively involved need the truth.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM

Nick:
"If I go downstairs will he be on the TV I wonder?"
Do you mean to say you missed the three Traveller programmes - tsk - tsk.
Re the Critics Group;
I'm afraid that - with the best will in the world, Ben made numerous wrong assumptions in 'Class Act' - I filled three pages of notes of them while reading it.
"There was confusion about how one joined,"
No there wasn't; people were invited to join if it was thought that the Group's work would benefit them - and vise versa. There were numerous people who felt that they should have been invited and weren't, just as a number of people who were asked declined.
It was Ewan's group and he had the final say in who should be invited. He kept the numbers down to what he believed was manageable for the method of work he was using; the fact that we met in their living room was also a consideration.
If Ben had asked any of us he interviewed we could have cleared up this 'confusion' for him.
"yet some who passed through the group could barely carry a tune"
While the group's main role was work on singing, there were a small number who didn't sing, but who took on other work, research, organisation etc. Everybody was given a chance to sing, but some non singers were valued for their abilities and enthusiasms in other directions.
The group was a private workshop not a public club so the question of reaching a standard for performing wasn't a consideration.
An honest na accurate assessment of the work of the Critics Group has yet to be carried out.
I will happily send you a transcript of the presentation on the group's work I gave at Ewan's 70th birthday symposium.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM

Well, I will say keep the kids out, Tim. I've had dogs who are better behaved than some of the children I've seen inflicted on what is basically an adult evening; all too aften the parents (or PARENT -because they nearly always come with a single parent) don't give a stuff what anybody else thinks.

Simon (sorry - my cookies won't let me sign in)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

Hey I wasnt saying keep the kids out just advocating the parents are made to take their responsibilities on re keepin em in order.
Re Mr and Mrs Banjiman (The Von Trapps) case in point the children compensate for the Banjo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:26 PM

There's a coincidence! I'm sitting reading Ben Harker's book 'Class Act' and there's Jim Carroll on page 185 and here on the internet. If I go downstairs will he be on the TV I wonder?

Even more curiously the passage I was reading at is relevant to this thread - it's in a section about the Critics Group from the mid 60's and I quote:

"From the outset, public relations weren't the groups strongest suit. There was confusion about how one joined, and some who expected to be included felt put out when they weren't asked. The entrance criteria were also unclear. Creating better singers was always central to the group's stated remit, and yet some who passed through the group could barely carry a tune - a contradiction that inevitably raised the eyebrows of MacColl's many adversaries."

Still you can't always believe what you read in books.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

Re children in clubs, concerts, etc. Please note that I was talking about a toddler who was too young to understand about being quiet and why.

I brought up two children through the folk scene, but did not take them into situations where they might disturb others' enjoyment unless I was in a position to remove them pronto if they did. The one who now has children of her own does exactly the same thing in her turn. *Of course* we should encourage children to get involved, but in a way and at a time when it is appropriate to their age. That was not so in this particular case.

As to the 'watershed', my attitude was always: if they don't understand it, it doesn't matter, and if they do, it's too late anyway!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

Snail
"So you pick on the one where I agree with you? "
More than a little snide I thought - have come to expect more of you; ah well! I answered what I was able to of your points minutes before we left - that's all I had time for. Will comment on the crass idea that all you need is the will to perform when we've unpacked and had a nights sleep.

And to our resident career critic who spends most of his time correcting spelling and replacing missing punctuation (of others, of course) -
"Knockcroghery does not mean 'hill of the hangman'!"
'Irish Names of Places P W Joyce' 1902
Knockcroghery, the hangman's hill, is a village in Roscommon, where there is a station on the Midland Railway; and there are places of the same name in Cork and Mayo.
'The Anglicisised Words of Irish Placenames Tom Burnell' 2006.
Knock - Hill, Croghery - The hangman
Of course, they could both be wrong, as could the residents of the area we have spent an extremely enjoyable three days visiting - what do the Irish know about Ireland anyway!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Colin Randall
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

Never mind fractious children. When I ran clubs in basic North-eastern England pubs - Darlington, Bishop Auckland and Shildon - my problems were with adults

Darlington (The Spinning Wheel club) was pretty well behaved. Shildon was probably too small a town (though my town) to support a club at all, though we had our moments. But Bishop!

At our first venue, the Castle Hotel, the landlord complained about the state of the Ladies after our club nights. I cannot shed light on that! And guests/floor singers moaned about the noisy crowd. Tom Gilfellon called it the worst club he'd ever encountered. The bar was in the folk club room which didn't help, even though the room was big, and the landlord saw no benefit in closing it during performance.

When I saw the conditions imposed by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger for respect and order (and no bar) during their sets,   I realised I couldn't possibly have them at the club.

If only I had waited. Soon, we had a lad on the committee who was, well, a lad. V bright, v engaging but hard as nails. One night, someone started blowing at a mouth organ in the Gents - directly behind the makeshift stage - during a guest spot. Big Pete went in,
and suggested the youth be quiet. Youth gave one last, defiant blast. Pete responded quite forcefully. It is close on 40 years ago and I no longer remember whether it was a butt, and punch or a slap. But it ended with Pete telling him: "You're a good turn, but you were on too long."

I disapprove of violence, naturally. I approve of the fact that it seemed that night to work.

Colin

Salut! Live



,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

.......or maybe the onus should be on the performer to be capable of coping with a chattering child? It's really not that hard!

But why should other members of the audience have to be distracted by a chattering child, when they have paid to listen to the performer? If this was to happen in a theatre or cinema you can be sure that someone would want it stopped. Why should a concert be any different? A few years ago I got tickets for an open air concert by Jose Carreras and had to ask a group of people sitting near us to stop talking as I was more interested in the music than in what they were talking about. Where's the difference? If children don't understand from an early age the respect for a performer they are unlikely to change as they get older and will just take it for granted that they can spoil the enjoyment of those around them in this way.

There have been a number of times when I have wanted to listen to the music and someone has wanted to chat to me. I make it clear that I'm there for the music, but it is annoying and frustrating to be disturbed in that way.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM

Hey - Jim K! How yer doin'? I dropped something in your cab - did you find it? Now, I reckon you ae realy onto something there. We cound go a step further and charge massive ammounts for people who are realy crap and just want to song pop songs! I'm sure it would go down well in Japan. They probably already have a name for it...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM

Paul - while I do welcome older children at my gigs there's no doubt that a small child - or anyone of any age who's not willing or able to give their full attention to the show - can be a problem if you aim to spellbind an audience at any point. Even a small noise at the wrong moment can completely break the mood you've worked so hard to create. I prefer to have kids at the front where I can engage them, and hopefully keep their attention, than at the back where they may not be listening and so might do something distracting at an unfortunate moment. At one village hall gig last year a small toddler made it impossible for anyone to concentrate on anything, picking the exact worst moments to cry out (just as I was trying to deliver the 'wings' line in God Speed, for example) and the gig had no tension or magic at all as a result. If the rest of the audience had asked for their money back I'd have sympathised. I had a grim night. Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

The height of good manners, I was always taught, is to model them--without expecting them back in return. Therefore I urge people concerned about "folk club manners" to differentiate in their thinking between what they expect of themselves and what they hope/expect/want from others. One can only control the former; the latter you must negotiate or, I think, be showing very bad manners oneself.

Also-- the more we welcome diversity, as a society, the more we open ourselves up to different formulae for what may constitute "good" "manners."

~Susan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

Who was it in Hollywood who said never work with children and animals?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

.......or maybe the onus should be on the performer to be capable of coping with a chattering child? It's really not that hard!

It doesn't sound like the chld was screamng or running about......

Paul (still using Wendy's cookies)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

Kids at folk clubs

I'm all for encouraging children to take an interest in the music, but the onus is on the parent(s) to ensure that the children do not cause a distraction, not only for the performer but also for the rest of the audience, who may have paid to come a listen to the performer and ten find their enjoyment lessened by a noisy child.

We were at a house concert at the weekend and one family came with three children. They were fairly well behaved, but one particular child was clearly not interested in the performance and spent a good part of the evening chattering away at the back of the L shaped room in which the performance was taking place. Kendall finds it difficult to concentrate on the music if there are outside distractions and I know that this child did irritate him somewhat. I don't know if others felt the same way and the child's mother did tell him to be quieter as he could be heard throughout the room. He did quieten down but continued to chatter for the remainder of the evening.

Now, maybe at a song circle that might be tolerable, although I do believe that, whenever someone is performing, they should be given the respect of being listened to or, if you really don't like the performance, go outside and chat. However, in a concert setting, I do feel that children should not be brought in unless they are capable of sitting quietly and listening to the performer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gedi
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Pip Radish, I came across Cockney Eric in Chorlton Folk Club in Manchester fairly recently. What a perfomer - brilliant. I think he does his own translations though from what he was saying.

The first thing I saw him do was 'The Port of Amsterdam', in English. It was the first time I had heard anything by Brel and It was really good.

Ged

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM

I went to a folk event last year where there were a lot of children ranging from infants to teens. I thought that they were all very well behaved. Many of them also joined in and some of them were remarkably good singers, dancers and musicians.

I think that, in general, we all have a responsibilty to ensure that children grow up to be happy and well-balanced adults. Most of this responsibility falls on the shoulders of parents and teachers of course. As a fully licensed (childless)'old git' my reponsibility only extends as far as trying to be a bit tolerant and not seeking to exclude kids from things unnecessarily.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

This is now me and not Banjiman using my name!

Re kids...would also point out that for some parents if they are single it is nigh on impossible for them to attend occasionally if they don't bring their kids with them. I am thinking in particular of a friend in our village who has only come along a couple of times to our Folk Club events for exactly this reason. She loves folk music but is sensitive to the audience (and to her children).

As a performer one just needs to learn to sing/play without being distracted, and as an audience member one needs to remember that we have all been children! If kids don't hear folk music when young then they are unlikely to suddenly get into it as adults...think of the number of folk performers who come from a heritage of folk performance in their parents, grandparents, etc..!

It is like all things - be reasonable, sensible and tolerant.

Wendy

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:18 AM

"With regard to kids at folk stuff.
They can be a pain in the butt at times due to being....KIDs."

We take our kids to a lot of stuff, especially during School Hols and at Weekends. They are aged 7 and (just) 9. Alot of you have met them, you can decide how well behaved they are.

If we couldn't sometimes take them to the folk club we run, it wouldn't be viable as it would cost us £20 for a babysitter each time. We let anyone under 16 in free to any events we run, we reckon it is important to look after the future. This has not caused us any problems yet...... this is supposed to be community music....when did kids stop being part of the community?

We quite often take them to other clubs/ festivals etc where we are performing....they both have a little part in the act if they feel like joining in.... the reaction to this seems overwhelmingly positive. But again, you judge.

They usually enjoy coming along and look forward to seeing other "folky kids".

I've just asked the kids if they have a message to the old grumps who think kids should not be allowed at folky happenings.......they said they should be allowed and they'll be good! They said they'll join in if you're any good or sit quietly and read their books or play on their DS's if they're not so impressed.

Paul (using Wendy's cookies)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:15 AM

Completely barking mad you are, Pip. Now did I ever tell you of my great uncle, Blind Willie Higginthorpe, the only Lancashire coal mining blues man. Used to play the blues on spoons and paper and comb because he thought he was black? No? Ah well, another time maybe...

Yes, anyway, I think you are quite right. CE had a French wife or partner who used to translate for him so I do believe a lot of his Brel stuff was done in English. I do remember though him taking the Mount in Fleetwood by storm. I am not so sure if it was because he did 'The port of Amsterdam', in French, with choreography, or because the singaround had actualy finished two hours earlier. I suppose we will never know.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM

Kids, eh?

We used to take our duaghter Rachel to our "home" club, the Rainham Oast, and I suppose she sarted coming with us when she was 6 or 7. In due course she told us she wanted to do song (on a singers' night). We made her practice it at home. She was then 8.

I'll never forget Keith Pearson's face (for it was his PA rig at the club). Up went young ginger, looking a little on edge. Ah, he thought, sweet little girl, and edged the mic gain up a bit - and Jacqui started the guitar line and people could see it was going to be "Whip Jamboree".

"WHIP!" started Rachel - and Keith dived for the controls as the speaker cones bade fair to hit the opposite wall!

After that, she always got a slot, and he always said that she was the only singer in the club who it up ALL the overload lights on his little desk.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM

I'm sure glad the old folks thought it was ok for me to be around when I was very small..otherwise, I doubt I would have grown up interested in being musical.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:18 PM

Kids at Folk Clubs? I'd sooner they stayed at home with a baby-sitter. I have been approached nicely by families wishing to come along, and always ask their age and if they are well behaved. It used to happen when I ran ticketed events. I asked for the full ticket price for the child. If the parents were prepared to pay, then you could bet that they would sit quietly and listen. Well behaved toddlers and babies usually went to sleep under the table when we had a reesident with a young family. They grew up with an appreciation of folk music. Parents who allow their kids to run free ... I think they just want a cheap night out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

He he keep the £10 towards your charity for battered and misunderstood club organisers V.
Acorn4
We are so proud of you for not shouting back at him.
LOL
The little darlings!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

Tim,

I think I've met Tarquin as well!

He was the one whose favourite amusement at Priddy Festival a few years back was shouting abuse at people through the doors while they were in the portaloos.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

Wher do I send the ten quid Tim :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

David - yes, I used to love Nigel (CE)'s Brel songs, although I remember him doing them in English. Haven't seen him in ages - don't know if he's still doing them.

Incidentally, I documented Jacques Brel's connections to the netherworld of George Formby impressionists here. "Where Heswall led, the Left Bank could only follow."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:23 PM

With regard to kids at folk stuff.
They can be a pain in the butt at times due to being....KIDs.
We took our grand daughter to a few of V's happenings at Faldingworth LIve. SHe loved it, he was great with her, and because he made her feel welcome I think she settled down better even than she usualy does.
I do find it annoying when you get those parents who make the kids behavior everyone elses problem though.
(Tarquin, Jolian,Brittany take note.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

I love Jaques Brel stuff - There was a bloke called Cockney Eric at the Hare and Hounds who used to sing them in French. He was neither Cockney, French, or called Eric but there you go!

D,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:22 AM

Not wishing to start a new argument, or revive this one (laid to rest, I hope), but I recently heard a program on the radio about Jacques Brel. Apparently, an early review after he came to Paris read:

"Would someone please tell M. Brel that there are excellent train connections back to Brussels?"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

Ah, caught out by "chiefly British" again. Never heard of a person being a notoriety. And so, I suppose two would be a pair of "notorieties". It's a fair cop, guv.

"If five people ask to perform then we have a decision to make. Is it so wrong to decide to put on the ones who will provide the best entertainment?"

I don't know; I'm sure it's a tough call. It's your club, you can do as you see fit.

"How does that make me the villain of the piece?"

I don't think you're "the villain of the piece". My point wasn't the songs; someone "better" there wouldn't make me not want to perform, if that's what I went for and I would be disappointed if I couldn't. And I have been on the receiving end of snobbery in various kinds of situations. This phenomenon isn't limited to music.

You have your way of doing things and you're perfectly entitled to run them the way you like. You've got your audience and your patrons and if they're happy with it, that's what counts. I don't even live in the same country, so I couldn't visit your club even if I wanted to.
I get the impression that the "folk scene" is very strong and widespread in Great Britain and people there have a good chance of finding something to their taste.

It's somewhat different here (a medium-sized university town in Germany).

What you describe doesn't really sound like my sort of thing and I think it's quite possible that I'd be one of the ones who was asked not to perform or "jumped on from a great height". Why should I expose myself to that?

Sorry for having a go at you. I wish you continued success at your club.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:57 AM

You are quite right, Piers. I am indeed thick skinned and was in no way offended by your comment. I must disagree with your assetion that noterieties is not a word though -

no⋅to⋅ri⋅e⋅ty
   /ˌnoʊtəˈraɪɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [noh-tuh-rahy-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1.         the state, quality, or character of being notorious or widely known: a craze for notoriety.
2.         Chiefly British. a notorious or celebrated person.

The acts I mention would be quite pleased to see themselves refered to as notorious I assure you:-)

Perhaps I wasn't following the discussion, but I got the impression that it could be open-mike or a singaround Yes, you are quite right again. You was not following the discussion, but I am happy to shoulder the blame for that - I did not make it clear enough. Absolutley anyone who asks will get a performance spot on singers night. Whether they play guitar like Martin Carthy, sing like an angel or recite Vogan poetry while farting the theme from Eastenders. On a guest night however we cannot get any more than 4 support singers on. If five people ask to perform then we have a decision to make. Is it so wrong to decide to put on the ones who will provide the best entertainment?

Sorry, your last post doesn't make sense to me. It has nothing to do with people not wanting to sing big rock candy mountain because there is someone better in the room. Anyone and everyone can do what they want in front of whoever they want on a singers night. On a guest night however I am one of the organisers and have to occasinaly say no. Oh - and I have said no to notorieties as well as poor performers;-) How does that make me the villain of the piece?

Cheers

Dave