Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:47 AM

Spot on, Will. The other thing is, Rafflesbear, I have stated quite categoricaly that Swinton have NO policy. Neither do we have a comittee or any internal politics. I can't speak for Chrlton or the Lewes Arms but our club is purely for music and enjoyment. We confine the arguments to Mudcat:-)

Jim, I am coming round more and more. I started off thinking that there is a need for people of no real talent to 'have a go'. But I am starting to think - why should it be in folk clubs? What can we do for them instead? If we are to raise the bar and get clubs to a standard that everyone can enjoy can we provie an alternative for the 'non improvers'

This is why I keep asking the question, which Bryan is so steadfastly ignoring (Nice to know I have that kind of power btw:-) ) What do we do with the non-impovers? Is there something we can to for those who just want to sing without improving, while ensuring we keep standards up?

And I think we are now in the section 20 - 1000 pots just around teh corner:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:53 AM

Lizzie, you have a personal axe to grind. Why bring it to this thread, apart from the fact that you see anyone who enjoys traditional music as the enemy?

Out of interest, which folk clubs have you actually visited? I'd be willing to hazard a guess you've been to maybe one club, one time, if that. Folk is a broad church. You don't like clubs? fine - there are lots of other ways to enjoy the music: diverse venues, festivals, etc. Why come in having a pop at people who put their life and soul, often at their own expense, into creating something for other people to enjoy, just to score points?

For the record, you can listen to whomever you like. It's when you obsessively shove your own musical taste down other people's throats on thread after thread that they become impatient with you. There is no vendetta against you or the artists you enjoy, except in your head.



Back OT:

"It has nothing whatever to do with elitism or exclusion or banning or auditions – the question seems to be, to me at least, 'TO DUMB DOWN OR NOT TO DUMB DOWN'."

I agree, Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:29 AM

First of all, thank you to Rosie, for her kind words, earlier on.

And if I could just re-iterate, I asked why the Canadians and Americans seem able to just turn up and play, welcome all, and 'get on with it', whilst the English have a thread of near on 1,000 posts discussing 'folk club manners'. It's intriguing, that's all, particularly from a world that I, personally, have found to be so deeply hostile.

'Ruth' - I am so disinterested in what you say to me these days, or about me, that I can't even be bothered to respond. You apparently know *far* more about my life than I do, and you are always ready to paint the blackest picture to everyone about me, so please....paint away. It no longer concerns me.


David, with all due respect, if I leave this thread, then I will do so by my own volition, not because you have told me to not reply. I have had my right of reply, my freedom of speech, taken away by those in your world, none of you have the right to tell me what to do any longer. As it happens, I now choose to leave this thread, so you can breathe easy again.

I very rarely come into these threads any longer, because they hold no interest for me anymore, for I am done with a pedantic, excluding, controlling, dictatorial world..and the fact that Sidmouth folk week now has an artistic director who said openly on the BBC board that she'd rather have pins stuck in her eyes than listen to the music of Show of Hands, shows me how far down the road of hypocrisy Sidmouth folk week has gone. To be honest, they lost my vote when Gordon left, because that man put all he had into saving Sidmouth, and he was treated very badly by those in the very world whose major festival he saved, by choosing to take a huge gamble and invest tens of thousands of pounds of his own money into it, to save it for all. He gave all he had for Sidmouth.

You want good manners? Then you should show them to people who love 'your' music.

You want folk clubs filled? Then you should realise that this is 'our' music, not 'yours'

You want me to stop.

I grant you that wish.

It is 'your' world.

Keep it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:45 AM

DeG:

If we are to raise the bar and get clubs to a standard that everyone can enjoy can we provie an alternative for the 'non improvers'

I think that is the big question. I'm starting to think you can't be neutral towards people who want to perform despite not knowing the material, not being able to hold a tune etc - if you're not discouraging this attitude you're encouraging it. It sounds as if Bryan's club discourages it so effectively that he never sees it at all. I wonder what their secret is?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

T

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:02 AM

Time to bail out before someone gets hurt, I think.

Jim, if you can ask me some questions that don't start from the assumption that I am actively supporting crap standards I might try and answer them.

P.S.
Like the semi-colon, Will, but then you went and spoiled it by starting a sentence with "And". Tut, tut, tut.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:04 AM

Running workshops and suggesting singers attend ,could help,it can be done tactfully.
but the singers have to be encouraged go,you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
Bryans Lewes club has the right idea by running workshops.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:13 AM

Oh PLEEEEZE. Let me go.

We don't "discourage" anybody, Pip. That's the point. We don't tell people "You aren't good enough. Go away and don't come back until you cam prove you've put in the necessary work." If that's the sort of club you want, get Anne Robinson to run it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:15 AM

Pip Radish:
It sounds as if Bryan's club discourages it so effectively that he never sees it at all. I wonder what their secret is?

I won't speak for Bryan - he's perfectly capable of doing that himself - but I have been to, and performed at the club as a 1-song floorspotter, and here's my purely personal opinion.

The club is home to a number of talented residents, of whom I've seen quite a few elsewhere. It has a strong swing towards traditional music but is hospitable to odds-and-sods like me who don't, on the whole, play that kind of music. It runs a very active and well-publicised series of workshops and tunes sessions. It has a reputation, I believe, in the area for excellence - as does its sister club (brother?) the Royal Oak. I think any aspiring singer who wanted to perform there would be aware of that excellence - and would make the effort to give as much as they could. And they would be welcomed for it.

As I said earlier, part of sensible thinking about whether to make an appearance at a club for the first time is to go there, case the joint, and think how you might fit in. Perhaps this works. People CAN be self-regulating, though it's apparent from the experience of other people here, that they often aren't.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Do you thik she is really gone? Can we come out from behind the curtains and carry on discussing what the thread is supposed to be about? I doubt it myself but we can only try:-)

There was one bit in there warrants discussion I suppose -

You want folk clubs filled? Then you should realise that this is 'our' music, not 'yours'

Sad as it is, Lizzie, in a folk club that I run I do try to please as many people as I can but, at the end of the day, it is for my benefit as well. In the words of Ricky Nelson - You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself. If you find yourself out of step with every folk club you have been to then surely that should tell you something shouln't it?:-)

I do not want to fill our folk club any further - We don't have the room! 40 people is a lot in a room the size we have and it may come back to manners. We have discused the manners of the audience and the artists. What about the responsibility of the organisers? Would it be fair to cram an extra 10 people in our room? I suspect not. Would it be fair to have only the music that the Lizzies of this world like? Again I suspect not. If people want pop they can see it anywhere. If they want folk surely it is the responsibility of the organiser, and simple courtesy, to provide what the club is advertising?


Secondly (and more importantly of course!) - To Pip's comments. I think you are right Pip. It just seems a bitter pill to swallow, particularly for the people who may end up with no outlet for their 'talents', however dubious. I supose there is always Karaoke:-D

Maybe you could ask Bryan what the secret is, seing as he will not tell me!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:23 AM

Thanks Will. Sorry about the "And" comment. Only joking.

Your floorspot was excellent; I wish you'd come more often. (See, I can do semi-colons too.)

Neither sister nor brother to the Royal Oak, just friendly neighbours both doing our best for the music.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:32 AM

Bryan:
Like the semi-colon, Will, but then you went and spoiled it by starting a sentence with "And". Tut, tut, tut.

Ah - now, we had a talk at work some years from the president of the Society for the Promotion of Better English (or some such body - can't remember the actual name), where two or three ancient myths were exploded.

One was starting a sentence with "And" - perfectly acceptable these days and an outmoded carryover from pre-war Primary school language teaching.

Another was the myth that a preposition is something you cannot end a sentence with.

A third was the splitting of infinitives - "To boldly go" is actually OK.

All is dependent on context. I rest my case and allow this thread to creep inexorably away to some other place.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:36 AM

Ah well, Will, I'm just an old traddy. You're so much more in tune with modern thinking than what I am.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:52 AM

Come on guys! Only 37 to go:-)

Can we give the spectacularly talentless performer any sort of outlet while removing them from the mainstream of folk?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM

What it's all about as far as I'm concerned.
PRIVATE INTERVIEW:
"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
Ewan MacColl 1979

FINAL STATEMENT OF THE SONG CARRIERS SERIES.
"Well, there they are; the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making; some were undoubtedly born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement; others are as brash as a cup-final crowd.
They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets of the plough-stilts and the hand-loom.
They are tender, harsh, passionate, ironical, simple, profound; as varied indeed as the landscape of this island.
We are all indebted to the Harry Coxs and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie McDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our peoples' songs across the centuries."
Ewan MacColl

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:24 PM

Thanks Jim.
it seems a reasonable assumption,that if singers/musicians go to workshops they will improve.
the club Bryan Creer is involved with runs workshops,many folk festivals run workshops[not sure if there are many singing workshops].
I think that this is where folk clubs can really play an important part in helping to raise standards.
folkclubs are also social clubs,where people often know one another, where hopefully people dont mind constructive criticism,it seems a good idea to me to employ a guest to do a gig and also help run a workshop,or for the residents to run a workshop before the club.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

'Al - perfect example of bad manners from the audience but, to be fair, did you do your homework at the Preston club? Don't get me wrong, no-one should be subjected to jeers but maybe you were just playing the wrong club for your music at the time. I think I said earlier that 'folk' is far to wide a definition and one man's meat etc.'

I was a young guy at the time. I could piss rings round most of the people in that room as a musician. I was totally into Woody Guthrie at the time.

Why, because he wrote about the world in front of him. There was him and Ewan. Everyone else thought the band Played Waltzing matilda was pleasingly modern. It was all right to talk about the first world war - ladies dancing at Whitsun etc. but not the world we lived in.

And that's what I wanted to do. Write about the shit I was going through as a young teacher in an inner city school.

I thought where I was, was a legitimate place to be. I still do. they should have respected it. And I sang in tune and knew the words. But i was treated like the village idiot.

some idiot singing The Mole catcher (unaccompanied natch) from an exercise book, that was de rigeur absolutely tootsie poo.

What has killed this movement stone dead is the attitude - my kind of music, right or wrong; in tune or out; words and tune remembered or totally forgotten; boring or utterly monotonous; tuneful or tuneless.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:09 AM

WLD,
I half agree with what you are saying.
The only experience I have of your song-writing is in the pages of New City Songster - which impressed me as being a good song, and knowing Peggy as I do, would not have been included if it were not (though - not being able to read music, I have problems of fully judging a song without hearing it sung).
There were - and still are prime examples of tight-arsed attitudes to what should go in clubs - from ALL sides of the divide, ranging from the banning (at one time) of accompaniment, the singing of contemporary/political/non-British/American... whatever songs, through to claims I have heard that songs are 'too long' or that an evening of 'just folk songs' at a folk club is "boring" (a regular, and completely off-the-wall complaint on Mudcat as far as I'm concerned - what else would you expect at a folk club - Lieder?).
Every club is entitled to its own policy and to adhere to that policy to whatever degree they choose, just as everybody who is a potential audience member is entitled to express an opinion of what happens at that club, no matter what their level of involvement and understanding. For me, as long as what goes on at a club bears some resemblance to what it claims to be - no problem; in other words, as long as a 'folk' club puts on something which can be claimed to be 'folk' music (or folk-music based) I, or anybody has no reason to demand their money back or write to the ombudsman. It is when this doesn't happen that the problems arise.
Whether we like it or not, clubs that give themselves a designation are set up to promote "my kind of music", right or wrong does not come into it. I can see no justification in complaining that a folk club only puts on folk music, any more than I would in protesting that our local chamber orchestra doesn't include Dave Brubeck or Neil Simon compositions in their repertoire. Neither fit their job description (unless you are arguing that it is wrong to label music 'classical', 'jazz', 'folk', 'hip-hop', 'garage', whatever).
What has killed this music isn't that the clubs 'do what it says on the tin', but the opposite - all too often they don't and what they do present, is performed badly.
Your 'Molecatcher' guy was, as far as I'm concerned, wrong, not for singing Molecatcher, but for having to read it from a book - though there are others on this thread who might disagree with this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM

Aye - fair enough, Al. Like I said earlier he was bang out of order but I am not sure what the point is, other than to serve as reminder about manners. What I am about to ad probably belongs on another thread but there are people like that in all walks of life. You were treated badly for singing modern songs in a folk club. Ever tried singing an unaccompanied folk song at an open mic evening? I have and was treated with similar disdain. Folk clubs are not the sole hunting ground of the lesser spotted dick-head unfortunately.

As to trad vs modern. I don't see it as contest. There are more contemporary singer songwriters about than trad singers, I think. I can name at least a half dozen singer songwriters that have been on at our club and only two trad acts - and you know one of them very well as well. Most of our booked guests however do a splendid mixture of trad and contemporary. I don't think many people have any complaints about the ammount of choice.

Cheers

DeG
PS - Off to the Brimmo thread - see you there:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Excellent quotes from Ewan MacColl, Jim. Spot on.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM

Still pondering what I can do about my resident non-improvers though. Without hurting their feelings. Any ideas?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

Thank you Bryan.
Dave:
Why not try a planned feature evening which include readings and involve them that way - it worked for us on a number of occasions and eventually turned out some good singers eventually.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM

Not sure what you mean, Jim. Readings as in Poetry for instance? Trouble is, with the people I am refering to, they have already gotten used to the idea that they can perform whatever they like. One in particular we had to physicaly restrict from joining in with someone else. Honest!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:09 AM

To catch up with Lizzie's post of some distance back, I speculate that the reason Americans don't appear to have this problem is perhaps that they have a culture which implicitly discourages people from trying to perform until they have mastered the basics. This was certainly the culture in the UK when I started doing floor spots, and I would have been embarrassed to have got up without being properly prepared (that's not to say I didn't make plenty of mistakes!).

How do you deal with persistently poor singers? It's got to be a judgement for the organiser, it will depend on the club, and on the singer. Some poor singers are nevertheless viewed with affection by other club members, whereas others are just an ordeal to listen to. The organiser has to be sensitive to his audience, and decide whether to tolerate the poor performer, or give them only occasional spots on evenings where it won't give a poor impression of the club (ie not on major guest nights). If poor standards of performance seem to be discouraging audiences then the organiser may have to say, sorry, you're not good enough. It may not be easy to tell someone that, but that's something they'll both have to come to terms with.

No one has a right to sing, not even at a folk club. The discretion must always lie with the organiser - they're the one taking the financial risk. They decide the club policy - even if the policy is that there is no policy!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:19 AM

GUEST,Howard Jones

No one has a right to sing,

Open to dispute I would have thought. Possibly a whole new thread topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:53 PM

I guess you meant that no-one has the automatic right to sing at a folk club, did you Howard? (Except the 'owner' of the club of course!) The meaning seemed reasonably clear to me but you do have to be careful here. Things do have a way of getting distorted;-)

Anyhow, if I have read it correctly you are confirming my views, and those of a few others here, that the organiser has the right to say no. I would add that in certain cases they would be within their rights to refuse admission. Serial crisp munchers and phone users beware:-)

A good synopsis of how to deal with difficult ones as well. Pretty much what I have done and advocated in the past. If anyone does have a valid alternative I would like to hear it though. Just a thought - for those who know the White Lion (Pip, Spleen and Nick please take note:-) ) How about having two types of singers nights. One in the bar, where we need to ensure good quality for the public, an 'open mic' perhaps. The other one in the club room where 'anything goes'. That way we would at least be showing people that if they do improve they can 'come out'. Not sure what other problems that may cause though. Ideas?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

Well I thought that I'd be a bit more interventionist last night with three people who I thought might appreciate it. I'm not sure that any of them did. I perhaps need to be a little careful what I say as I'm aware from last night that a number of people who were there last night have been following this thread.

Two of them would improve enormously if they learned to pitch their songs better. One sang a song that I reckon would have worked better about a third (at least) up - the bottom notes grate along the bottom of his range (or below it?) and blend into one. Interesting look he gave me when I suggested it to him. The second has difficulty knowing where to pitch a song so picks it out at random, so sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. We both sing 'This Love Will Carry' by Dougie MacLean so we worked out where he could sing it and tried it and it's easier and better. I reckon he thinks I come from another planet too.

The third is an interesting one. He can play the guitar reasonably well and he can sing in tune. He has picked up a strange thing rhythmically though which goes all over the place making him almost impossible to play with (not the reason he does it by the way for those !) and makes listening hard. Added to this are that he has a strange (country and western led?) swoop in his vocals and playing which is quite odd but presumably developed from listening to someone though I know not who. Added to this he tends to rewrite the tunes of songs to something that is not very recognisable - and usually rather good songs. (Mr Punch and Judy Man has a perfectly tune already that really doesn't need changing and there are others).
So I thought I'd take the chance to chat to him about it. I'm not sure that my intervention was welcomed or appreciated and again I got that curious look from him and his partner that suggested I was from somewhere the other side of the asteroid belt.

Limited success on that.

But on the other side of the coin - Tim and his wife from Grimsby came and it's fantastic to see how far he has come over the time I've known him and I know we - along with various Lincolnshire clubs have hopefully been supportive and encouraging to him. He was then off to play at a few spots over the next few days in the north east where I'm sure he will get a good reception.
The other was someone who has now come and played the piano for the second time who has been coming and listening for a LONG time but never performed anything. And obviously been practicing. I reckon she'll sing before long too.

But a thought did strike me which I might start up another thread on because it's not about manners at all.

WHO SHOULD JUDGE? I'm reasonably musical but I don't think I am really qualified to help others that much. Who should do it and what position should they hold to be able to do it? What gives them the right to do it?

I also came across another thing last night which I will start another thread on which is about the inevitability of change and the problems it brings in its wake.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

Well done Nick! At least you are doing something to help. I think the 'who should judge?' question may have a place here. In my opinion the only one who can judge what goes on at their club is the organiser. Only they know exactly what they have in mind. They (usualy) fund it to some extent and then give their own time for free. If the club organiser(s) cannot say who sings there for whatever reason then who can?

It should of course be tempered with a modicum of common sense - I for one would not expect in a million years that everyone would have the same tastes as me for instance and I do support artists who are not on my top ten list, but who are on other peoples.

I do feel I should be able to determine the standard though.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:45 AM

So - next question - how do I apply those standards?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:22 AM

DeG:
So - next question - how do I apply those standards?

David - I assume that, at your club, you have a mixture of guest nights and come-all-ye nights? You can use the come-all-ye as a proving ground to assess who can, and who can't perform reasonably. When you're putting together your running order for a guest night, then you can reasonably restrict the number of floor singers - and you make the choice as to who performs and who doesn't. You're the organiser - you run the club as you want to - it's your choice and you pick the most suitable fillers for the evening. If those that don't ever get picked, or rarely get picked, want to know why - then there's an opportunity to explain. Not easy, by the way, as Nick has demonstrated!

I'm popping up to Cheshire for a few days next week to see an old friend from long ago perform as the guest at a club. At his suggestion, I telephoned the organiser to see if there might be a chance of a floor spot that evening. The organiser's response was quite clear: it's a guest night - I can't promise - depends who turns up - bring your guitar - let's see what happens on the night. Perfectly straightforward as far as I'm concerned as he doesn't know me from Adam. We had a long and cordial chat for about 20 minutes on the trials and tribulations of running a club, etc., etc.

Don't you wish, sometimes, that some people who perform in clubs - or anywhere else, for that matter - were more self-critical? I made a huge gaffe some time ago at a Sussex club (the one where most of the performers pop their words and chords on a music stand). One performer played a very hesitant but promising version of the guitar instrumental "Buck Dancer's Dream". Full marks for trying, thought I. In the interval I was speaking to him and said something like, "Nice version of Buck Dancer's Dream - nearly there, eh?" That was a real 'I'll get me coat' moment, I can tell you! Turned out he thought it was perfectly played, and it also turned out that he ran another folk club elsewhere... The old boy wasn't best pleased, I can tell you - no self-critical faculty whatsoever. [Exit WF, stage left, pursued by a bear...]

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

DeG re non improvers      Do a Fylde FF 'worst singer' spot and see if they can establish their level.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

Thanks Will and Aeola (is that an accordian?)

As to the first point, it is pretty much how we have done things for many years. Trouble is the ones who are not improving seem to be quite content with just performing on a singers night. Which is why I need to let anyone new to the club during a 'come all ye' know that there may be one or two 'interesting' acts on;-) By doing this though am I guilty of, as Jim calls it, promoting crap standards? Should I, maybe, see if I can get the ones in question to only perform between 7:30 and 8:30 when no-one else is there? I really don't know:-( Since Bryan does not seem to be answering me and seeing you are familiar with both the Lewes Arms and places where there are 'non-improvers' can you tell me how come bad performers do not attend the Lewes Arms?

Aeola - We did run a 'worse singer' contest in the early years oddly enough! It was always won by professionals who REALY know how to make a pigs ear of things when they want to:-) Maybe we should resurrect it in another form?

Keep 'em coming folks. Not many to top the 1000:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:15 PM

Will,
Fiddle player extaordinaire Kevin Burke used to tell a story of when he first started playing in London nearly forty years ago.
He was taught a rather difficult tune by an elderly fiddle player and he worked at till he finally mastered it. Every time they met, the old man asked him to play it, which rather pleased him, but it happened so often that one night Kevin asked him why he always requested it.
"You'll play it till you get the ******* thing right", was the reply.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

Snail,I am pretty tolerant,about other singers,but I came across someone doing a version of the Holly and the Ivy,they were so awful,I dont think you would have given them a spot either,out of tune with themselves,expressionless,out of tune with their instrument.
this person doesnt take on board any advice,and had the cheek to criticise me for playing harmony on the concertina,and not playing melody only.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:03 PM

Only one, Dick? A while ago you were talking about "large numbers of extremely bad singers" and offering to send them to me, and Silas said he could "send all the shite your way". I hardly think one poor performance of the Holly and the Ivy is going to bring the entire UK folk club circuit to its knees.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Dear DeG and others discussing 'ability' of performers. Would you to read and reply to my thread 'Catters Critical Claws'. 'Cos I feel it's tangentially but significantly relevent to your discussion, and indeed has in no small part been inspired by witnessing it (amogst other threads I've posted)!
Cheers, Sleepy Rosie

PS are there to be fireworks and tearfull celebrations when this thread finally hits its millenial post? Wouldn't want to miss it! ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM

Snail,your wish is my command,how many do you want,and how much do you pay.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:17 PM

how come bad performers do not attend the Lewes Arms

There's a question for the ages. The last time I suggested that bad performers must be so effectively discouraged from attending that they never turn up at all, Bryan objected strongly:

We don't "discourage" anybody, Pip. That's the point. We don't tell people "You aren't good enough. Go away and don't come back until you cam prove you've put in the necessary work.

All I can say to that is that it depends what 'discourage' means. There's a regular Irish tune session at a pub near me; massive thing, twenty or thirty players in perfect time, reeling off tunes by the yard. I know some of the tunes they do, more or less, pretty much, but I've never sat in with them; in fact the thought of sitting in with them makes me go hot and cold all over. Nobody's told me I'm not good enough for that session - in that sense (the sense Bryan's objecting to) nobody's discouraged me. I've still been discouraged, by the sheer quality of the playing - and I suspect that a lot of the 'non-improvers' we've been talking about would be similarly discouraged if they turned up at the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

Snail ,I didnt say he would,but would you let him sing at your folk club week after week,please answer?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:49 PM

>>Snail,your wish is my command,how many do you want,and how much do you pay.

A little incongruous. If you know so many, Dick, why didn't you do something about it rather than asking Bryan to sort out a problem he hasn't got? Closest to flaming I get.

My grandmother when she got quite old used to drive her Morris Minor (the one with the dull metallic thud when you hit the body work) around South Woodford and accidents used to happen all around her. She was never involved in an accident. If there had been such a thing in the 70's and 80's she would probably have posted to threads on forums entitled 'Why are people such bad drivers?'

>>There's a regular Irish tune session at a pub near me; massive thing, twenty or thirty players in perfect time, reeling off tunes by the yard. I know some of the tunes they do, more or less, pretty much, but I've never sat in with them; in fact the thought of sitting in with them makes me go hot and cold all over. Nobody's told me I'm not good enough for that session - in that sense (the sense Bryan's objecting to) nobody's discouraged me. I've still been discouraged, by the sheer quality of the playing - and I suspect that a lot of the 'non-improvers' we've been talking about would be similarly discouraged if they turned up at the Lewes Arms.

20 or 30 people rarely play in perfect time. The impression is that they do. The nature of that big a session is that you can get involved with no worry that you could ever spoil anything. I'm off to a local session tonight on a much smaller scale. They won't hear me if I play quietly and they will if I play loudly. I'd get involved if it's that many people because you can't go wrong. The essence of a session is that people join in. Not like a folk club at all.

Most Irish tunes have very few chords. And most Irish tunes will work with you droning on the root note (if you have a guitar for instance). So if it's the Irish Washer Woman in D drop your bottom string to D and just play in time on the D note. There are a lot of people who would think you are a very creative player and applaud the fact that you aren't bringing in any fancy stuff. And it works of course :)

If you want to be really flash start from the root note of the tune and play an octave backwards against the tune and you won't be far off

Once your in it's easy and you have enough sense to know when to play and when not

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

DeG: "can you tell me how come bad performers do not attend the Lewes Arms?"

Well, as I wrote on 19th Nov, I think this plays a large part:

It has a reputation, I believe, in the area for excellence - as does its sister club (brother?) the Royal Oak. I think any aspiring singer who wanted to perform there would be aware of that excellence - and would make the effort to give as much as they could. And they would be welcomed for it.

There's a huge amount of DIY music in various places in this part of Sussex, and there's no question (IMHO) that the clubs at the Lewes Arms and the Royal Oak have a reputation for excellence and dedication - which has an effect on would-be performers. Just my humble opinion...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:55 PM

Nick ,it was a joke.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

Ahhhhh - Thanks Will, I didn't notice that earlier post so apologies for the re-hash.

So, basicaly, the reputation for excellence, would effectively discourage poor performers? Just as Pip's session discourages him? So, what we need to do is get a reputation for excellence! Easy - I'll just stop performing:-) At last, a bit of sense!

I think then that we have something all can agree on - Good music begats more of the same. Let standards slide an it is indeed a sloppery slope. Can I then offer a bit of advice to the organisers of all those excellent clubs out there, Including Bryan (you don't have to take notice but you have been warned!) When you do eventualy get someone with the brass neck to turn in week after week of crap, as may eventualy happen, nip it in the bud. Do as Jim suggests and make them go away until they ae better.

We didn't and we are now stuck with a reputation that anyone can perform whatever rubbish they like. Admitedly it is a tiny percentage but once it is there it is like herpes. It only affects a tiny little bit of you but it is bloody annoying and you can't get rid!

Rosie - on my way now. Did you get the CD's BTW?

Nearly there...

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:16 PM

DeG - you could, of course, be quite radical (and quite possibly unpopular) and slowly starve the crap performers of the chance to play - i.e. give the better performers more in any spot. And make it clear why you're doing that.

However, perhaps a more positive way would be to do a tour of the local clubs, seek out the better performers and invite them to perform at yours - shame the poor ones who would then be eased away...

Alternatively, if you're at your wits end, why not just say to someone, "You're shite - piss off!" [I'll get me coat...]. :-) Will

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:27 PM

It was the same joke you posted further up the thread Dick and I recognised it as such the first time. I thought you might be serious this time as noone repeats a joke

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM

Hehehe - I could, Will, but to honest with only a couple performers out of dozens of regulars I wonder somethimes if it worth upsetting anyone. After a particularly bad perfomance, I usualy think yes it probably is, but it is then made up for the rest of the artists. It's just bloody annoying that sods law says that when North West Arts comes in, contemplating a £2 Million funding offer, there will be someone crap on!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

It's very bad form to keep posting stuff just to hit the 1000. So I will not.

What do you think of people that fart in folk clubs? Or on Mudcat thread come to that...

:D eG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:07 PM

I like repeating jokes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tyke
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

Sad

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tyke
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

sad