Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:55 AM

Get a grip and get back on topic
Fat chance, with all this willy-waving going on. My bet is that this thread will hit the 2000 mark and we'll still have three people arguing over which end of the egg to break.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:51 AM

You see, it's weird, Lloyd George (who are you by the way?). In principle, I agree with you, but I kind of like Chorlton how it is, warts 'n' all. In any case, I'd rather start the night with Brian's 'unique' take on folk songs than end with the obligatory Buddy Holly or Cliff Richard number that seems to happen every time I turn up... (which isn't as often as I should, which is probably why I enjoy it so much). I guess I don't expect to hear much "folk" (what is folk? alert - don't go there!) at Chorlton Folk Club, so I'm rarely disappointed, but I am usually astounded by the sheer quality of a few of the performers, particularly the frighteningly stoned-looking young men with the nu-folk hairdoes and beautiful voices. And I would happily listen all night to the American woman, whose name I don't know, who sings and plays banjo.

Meanwhile, for a cracking night out with plenty of unnaccompanied traditional folk and a few other things there's always the Beech, first Wednesday of the month... oh! That'll be next Wednesday, then...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:49 AM

B. Norah, Snail - those who can't sing choose not to perform? Lucky old Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

Jim Carroll wrote
I have no idea if The Lewes Club is good or bad

proving that even the naming of clubs has not be settled in over 1000 postings.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:41 AM

Jim Carroll

We both know I have never been to the Lewes Arms Club so I can only assume your question was a rhetorical one

Jim, you had, once again, accused me of promoting crap standards. I was pointing out that you have absolutely no idea what the standard of performance is at the Lewes Arms so you have no evidence for your accusation.

I can find nothing in your post of 19 Nov 08 - 05:47 which seems to be a question for me to answer. Are you sure that's the post you mean? What I did find was -

In the light of the existing situation on the folk scene the idea that you throw the doors open to singers incapable of singing is a bloody nonsense

Your basic assumption seems to be that anybody who wants to sing is incapable of doing so. Our experience is that people who want to sing generally can and will put in the necessary practice before doing so. Those who can't (or believe they can't because someone has told them so) choose not to perform.

In the long run it is the responsibility of the club organisers to ascertain that the music presented to the audience is of a standard that it can be enjoyed;

Two problems with that. You seem to have totally failed to grasp my point that floor singers are part of the audience; a significant part; on frequent occasions, the major part.

The other problem is that, as the quote from MacColl makes clear, the responsibility for the standard of performance ultimately depends on the performer. All that anyone else can do is give support and encouragement.

I suggest that if singers who couldn't sing turned up and you regularly put them on

They don't. We don't. Sorry if that doesn't suit your world view. We have some who may be not very good (which, if you think about it, is exactly the same euphemism as "not exactly concert standard") but I can think of no-one who doesn't steadily improve.

For the rest of your post of 25 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM, I am a little confused because you suddenly launch off into guest policy which is an entirely different subject and certainly nothing to do with Folk Club Manners.

Yes, I do believe our audiences (including the performers among them) and the music are worthy of the greatest respect.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Couple of people have mentioned my local, Chorlton... one place where the policy is deffo 'give a spot to anyone who wants one'... Maybe that polcy works for you Snail, but down at Chorlton what it leads to is reading... lots and lots of reading. Someobdy did Plaisir damour... not long or complicated... they did it with a songbook. Somebody did Whirly whirl... nice song and great to hear it sung, but she sang the whole thign with her face in a songbook. And of course the night began the way it always does, with an old bloke who can't sing doing something out of the old Singing Together reperotoir... out of a songbook. It's frustrating... some of htese people could be much better if they tried harder and some of them could do us a favour by shuting up... but neither of those things is going to happen while there's this 'come one come all' metnality.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:51 AM

Captain Birdseye

Snail,what has the Lewes arms got to do with this?

I have stated that our policy at The Lewes Arms Folk Club is to give floorspots to anyone who wants one whether it be a singers night or a guest night. I have come under considerable criticism for this and have been accused of promoting crap standards, dumbing down, allowing people to practice in public, driving audiences out of the folk clubs and God knows what else. There seems to have been a competition to find the most absurd candidate for "Would you allow this person to perform at your club?" I suppose it relieves the pressure to know that we share the blame with Comhaltas.

We, as a club, are being criticised by people who have never visited us or at least not for a very long time.

I cannot speak for other clubs; I can only say as I have said before - "We do what we do and we find that it works."

The Villan

Blimey, this isn't about Folk club Manners

Actually, I think it is. It's about how we behave towards each other and the respect we show to each other.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:29 AM

Well, like I said Jim, Yes and No. Our 'residents' do turn up every week regardless of whether it is a guest night or a singers night and those residents are all good enough to put on anywhere and anytime. I would add that a very high proportion of our guests do come along on singers nights and other guest nights as well! There are also about 4 residents who regularly (one a year) feature as guests. So I have no issue at all with the quality of our residents.

The issue is not residents. Never has been and this is the first time, I think, that resients have been mentioned. The non-improving performers are exclusively with the people who only regularly turn up on singers nights. They are not residents and nothing I have ever said, either here or to them, would make them anything other than regular floor singers. And, as I said yesterday, not too regular at the moment! Maybe I don't need to worry about them any more?

Maybe we need to redefine what class of poor performer we are talking about? I would agree with you completely on the score that 'residents' do need to be a good standard but I believe we may be using two different definitions of resident. I will start with mine. It includes only those who care for the club. Who turn out week after week in whatever weather, not knowing if they will get a singers spot or not and, most importantly, are ambasadors for Swinton Folk Club whether at home or away!

I know there are factions here who say that if they are not that regular they are not a problem - but they are! Once a month is too often sometimes and every singers night is certainly an overload. I think I understand more what you are getting at now - Those clubs who have poor quality residents running (and ruining!) the show. I have seen one or two in my time as well but, as you say, they have often caused the clubs to close. Blessing in disguise perhaps?

Does that make things any clearer or does it cloud the issue further still?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:32 AM

Addenda-
or don't you think so?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM

"Jim, do you consider the standard of performance at The Lewes Arms Folk Club to be poor?"
We both know I have never been to the Lewes Arms Club so I can only assume your question was a rhetorical one - on the other hand, it might be just to avoid answering mine - especially the ones I asked on (19 Nov 08 - 05:47) which you scrambled on your high horse to avoid.
I have no idea if The Lewes Club is good or bad - and (as you keep telling me not to rely on hearsay) I hesitate to express an opinion on such. I suggest that if singers who couldn't sing turned up and you regularly put them on - it isn't a good club - but you tell us that doesn't happen (and Brutus is an honourable man). But that - as I've said before, and had no response to - means that you are advocating something for the rest of us that doesn't effect you.
Howard,
Sorry, any good club I have ever belonged to has relied entirely on its residents, not its guest policy.
We were lucky with the Singers to have Ewan, Peg, and other excellent performers as residents, but I can't think of one club resident I have shared a platform with that I haven't been proud to perform with and who I was happy to put my trust in.
Your residents will be there next week when your guests go home; it's them you can plan feature evenings with, who you can work regularly with on things like accompaniments, choruses, harmonies etc, whose singing you are familiar with, who you can trust that what they are going to do is well intentioned, who can be confident that they will come to the rescue if you drop the ball. If you decide to tackle work above and beyond.... say to research the local repertoire, (or gather information on music, dance and song) in your area, or say, put together a collection of local songs, tunes or dances, or compile an archive, or run a workshop or seminar, it's your residents who will put their hand up, not your guest.
Guests should be the decorations on a well baked cake, never the main course.
And as I said, it's the feller or woman who turns up week after week, no matter who's on that you are responsible to, not somebody who only turns up to see Martin Carthy or Christie Moore - or whoever.
If you are going to rely on guests, you really don't need a club - you may as well rent the local church hall once a month.
It's true that residents performances are going to vary, but your residents are a unit whereas your guests are one-offs. Permanence makes a club, not stars - that is unless you measure your success by balancing your budget with bums on seats.
I don't accept that 'practicing in public' is the only way to learn - certainly not on club nights, there are other alternatives - your audiences, and the music are worth much more respect than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

Les - Folk club manners include which singers should know when to put a sock in it as well:-) Yes, maybe it should have been another thread but we may as well leave it here now it's arrived!

Jim. Yes and No. While I agree entirely that I may be seen to be applying 'double standards' I only do so because the club does serve multiple purposes.

Firstly, there are those who only turn up for singers nights. Either because they want to perform, because singers nights are free or for many other reasons. Those are the ones who understand that one or two bad performances over the course of a month or two can be acceptable. I explain the format to anyone new, usualy along the lines of 'Anyone who wants to perform can do. There may be some "interesting" songs'. Said with a smile and a wink of course;-)

Then there are those who will only ever turn up on a guest night. Who, like many others, expect a certain standard of music. These people pay their £3's and, as organiser, I try my best to uphold the standard. We know there are many more good singers than bad so I somethimes take a chance when someone new arrives, like Pip did when Dick was on. I will try to accomodate them and, as yet, have not been dissappointed.

Finaly there are the 'hard core' who turn up every week. Like me they know that at most they will have the occasional poor performance and dozens of fair to brilliant ones. Funnily enough our hard core non-improvers have been missing for a few weeks now but I am not getting my hopes up! I am not saying that poor performances are acceptable. They are not generaly. But when you weigh them against the good they are a very small overhead. Of course, like I said before, sods law says that when the TV crew arrive they will concentrate on the worse:-(

I hope this explains why 'double standards' is not a bad thing in this case. I think you will find plenty of evidence on this thread that it does seem to work at Swinton and at other clubs (not the Lewes Arms of course) but I do not advocate it as a solution for all. As to the unfairness of only putting good singers on during guest nights. Well, maybe if we charged the same for both and advertised both as the same thing I would agree. But singers nights are free of charge while we charge people £3 to see a paid guest. The raffle on singers nights goes a long way towards subsidising the guest nights and where else could you see a national quality artist strumming along with the likes of me? :-)

We could of course stop altogether. Send the non-improvers to Karaoke and the people who will only listen to the best to concerts. But where does that leave the vast majority of generaly excellent performers who occupy middle ground?

Cheers

Dave

BTW - Were you sending me something about 'themed nights'?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM

Blimey, this isn't about Folk club Manners, it has become a thread on who should perform and who shouldn't.

Get a grip and get back on topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

Jim, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I take issue with the final comment that "The idea of not giving of your best on a residents night, and only putting your good singers on when yo have a guest is hypocritical and unfair."

Most club regulars are well aware that a singers night and a guest night are quite different animals, and are tolerant of lower standards at singers nights - they might even find the courage to sing themselves. Guest nights are showpieces, and deserve the best. Singers nights are an opportunity for anyone who wishes to sing, but the standards are likely to be patchy. As long as the club audience accepts this, there isn't a problem.

The folk clubs have traditionally provided an opportunity for singers to learn the craft. I agree that you shouldn't "practice in public", but you can only get confidence to perform in public by doing it.    The downside is that while singers are gaining experience their standard may leave something to be desired, but that seems to be accepted as well, at least in most of the clubs I've been in.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

It's up to the performer themselves to raise their standard. The drive has to come from within not from somebody telling them they aren't good enough.
yes and no,the club organiser,or resident,may be a good person to give tactful constructive criticism,to the aspiring floor singer.,if they ask for it or if they query why they are not given a floor spot.
Snail,what has the Lewes arms got to do with this?,other than your desire to publicise the club,that you are one tenth of the committee.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM

Jim, do you consider the standard of performance at The Lewes Arms Folk Club to be poor?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

"Up until now, Jim, you've been saying that folk clubs in the UK are collapsing or have collapsed because their orgnaisers are promoting crap standards whereas in Ireland everything is thriving and blossoming."
To the first part, yes, I most certainly do, and you have gone a long way to confirming it. To the second, no I haven't, nor is it.
Things are moving in the right direction, the music is thriving and blossoming, the singing, though it still has a way to go, is improving. Any problem that it is experiencing stems from your 'no standards' attitude which Comhaltas tends to lean towards - hence last Friday night's debacle. Saturday night's concert was in complete contrast, with an excellent combination of music and singing - and not a CCE official in sight.
There is no club tradition here, but where they do exist, the general standard is high. The same applies to the numerous singing week-ends.
There are a rising number of young singers, Helen Hayes, Alana Henderson, Roisín Al-Safty, Paula Carroll.... which indicates that singing has a future. The general ability is high and the repertoire is firmly rooted in the tradition.
Any problems that do exist, and there are a few, do not arise from the 'dumbing down' process that is being argued for here.
"Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening."
MacColl was advocating working on a song so that you didn't make a balls of it, not getting up and practicing (and making a balls of it) in front of an audience - please use the whole quote, not the bit that suits.
In the long run it is the responsibility of the club organisers to ascertain that the music presented to the audience is of a standard that it can be enjoyed; you don't do that by dumbing down. If you don't live up to your responsibility you are short-changing them. Nobody so far has acknowledged their responsibilty to their audiences - do you feel you don't have one - if you do, what is it?.
A number of people are advocating double standards - one for the guest nights, one for the residents. The club member who turns up every week, no matter who is on, is the person who earns the right to be given the best, not the one who just turns up for the current 'flavour of the month'. Your regulars are your roots into the community and it is they who will ascertain whether the club stands or falls. The idea of not giving of your best on a residents night, and only putting your good singers on when yo have a guest is hypocritical and unfair.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM

Aeola - This was the bloke! Nothing to do with some of the farts I have encountered at folk clubs though:-) Our club is indeed regularly well attended but I am always interested in how to make improvements though.

As you can see everyone is in agreement now. No other club has anything to do with the policies of the Lewes Arms. The policy at the Lewes Arms has nothing to do with anyone else. There are poor performers around but they never appear at the Lewes Arms and even if they did they would be welcomed. People are completely self policing and all is well in the world:-D

I don't know what the fuss is about and why people are continuing to argue. I do know I must be getting something right though as I have a wonderful sense of peace...

No club for me tonight as I am full of a cold but we are having a grand bash on Saturday.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:29 PM

DeG Fart in folk clubs,   !!! well if it's in tune???? Petamane,, was 'nt that an (f)art form performed on stage for good money??

As for what to do with non improvers in your club, if your club is regularly well attended then you must be doin' it right!!
Now let's all be good lads and go to our fav folk club and just enjoy.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:12 PM

Captain Birdseye

stop being obtuse,you   know very well,that many clubs in the past[and some still are] run/financed by one person.

Fine, but what has that got to do with our policy at the Lewes Arms?

the singer on one of these threads who had listened to herself,and realised she was going quarter tone sharp,by the end of the song, had the right idea,critical analysis of her performance.

Just so. The sternest critic of a performer is the performer themselves. As Ewan MacColl said in Jim's quote earlier -

Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.

It's up to the performer themselves to raise their standard. The drive has to come from within not from somebody telling them they aren't good enough.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM

Dick, the vast majority of contributors to this thread appear to agree that poor performers, even a tiny minoroty, can be a problem the clubs they attend. Most people can see what you, and most other people, are getting at. Most people can discuss what is wrong in folk clubs without taking it as a personal insult to their organisational prowess. I think you are ahead on points.

Funnily enough I can say that without fear of contradiction at the moment:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

stop being obtuse,you   know very well,that many clubs in the past[and some still are] run/financed by one person.

No problem with that at all but if anyone chooses not to go to a workshop that is up to them.
Thats bloody obvious too,and that is part of the problem.[Isaid earlier you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink]
the singer on one of these threads who had listened to herself,and realised she was going quarter tone sharp,by the end of the song, had the right idea,critical analysis of her performance.
not that I think it matters too much if an unaccompanied singer does this,more important is singing in tune and interpretation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:43 AM

Captain, you seem to have a very different model of the organisation of a folk club from ours. There is no one person who is responsible for paying the guest and all members of the committee take their turn at being MC for the evening and run it as they see fit. I can't really discuss the details of how we pay our guests without revealing confidential contractual arrangements.

I can say that we see our role as arranging guests for our audience, not arranging audiences for our guests.

the fact that i would allow a low standard for floor singers to sing,does not mean that they are not open to improvement[as we all are, myself included],
a lot of the singers I would allow on,would benefit from going to workshops.

No problem with that at all but if anyone chooses not to go to a workshop that is up to them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

its bloody obvious what I am getting at Bryan,
if one person the organiser[there is no committee] is responsible for paying the guest,he is responsible for getting people in to the club,if he feels putting a bad singer on is likely to affect the numbers of people coming into the club,and thus his ability to pay the guest,he has every right to refuse a singer ,it is in effect his club,because he is financially responsible,he / she can also determine what rules as regards manners,are enforced at the club.
the fact that i would allow a low standard for floor singers to sing,does not mean that they are not open to improvement[as we all are, myself included],
a lot of the singers I would allow on,would benefit from going to workshops.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

Captain Birdseye

Bryan Creers club

Not my club, we are a committee of ten.

I am sorry,I dont believe people who say that they will allow anyone to sing on a guest night

We allow anyone who wishes to to sing on a guest night. Clear enough? We tend to find that the less confident singers will sometimes refuse to do so no matter how much we try to persuade them.

I can think of about three people in forty years,who were so bad,that I would try to encourage them to have voice workshops

Three people in forty years is not a viable market for a workshop and does little to convince me that the non-improving bad singer is a serious problem.

In any club I have run I have never stopped anyone from singing.

Good.

Not sure what you are getting at with the talk of being "financially responsible".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

if an organiser is responsible financially,for running a club,paying the guest etc,he is perfectly entitled to do what he wants regarding selection of singers,enforcement of other manners[the Squirrelling or allowance of Squirrelling of nuts,or the non allowance etc].
if its a committee that are financially responsible then it is up to the committtee to come to a decision.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:53 AM

I gather from other sources that failed X-Factor contestants are roaming the land demanding floorspots in folk clubs

Dee, dee, dee, dee
Dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee

Oh, look children. Here's Mr Rusty and Dougal. Mr Rusty is saying that he would give Dillon a spot, but not Ermintrude. She can't sing in tune with the hurdy gurdy. Dougal thinks he is probably right but wouldn't give Dillon a spot either. Too weird man...

Oh, Bryan has appeared. Anyone should be able to do whatever they like anytime?

Time for bed says Zeberdee

Now, children, can anyone tell me which bits above are made up? :-D

Cheers

DeG
(Alias Mr McHenry)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:44 AM

by running workshops we are applying standards,and hoping to improve standards.
this is what Bryan Creers club is doing,and that is very laudable.
I am sorry,I dont believe people who say that they will allow anyone to sing on a guest night,the person who is being honest here, is Dave The Gnome.
personally. I would be very reluctant to stop anyone from singing on a singers night,but I can think of about three people in forty years,who were so bad,that I would try to encourage them to have voice workshops,before I put them on again,one of the three was a recorder player with no sense of rhythm,again: first I would try[hopefully tactfully] to encourage them to go to a suitable workshop.
I wouldnt stop someone from singing because they were using words ,but I would try to encourage them to have a go without.
however I dont think singing with words is a very good idea.
In any club I have run I have never stopped anyone from singing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:50 AM

Jim Carroll

Don't know who suggested Comhaltas was in any way to blame for the 'alleged' parlous state of the clubs;

Up until now, Jim, you've been saying that folk clubs in the UK are collapsing or have collapsed because their orgnaisers are promoting crap standards whereas in Ireland everything is thriving and blossoming. In your latest attack on "those who insist that no standards are required" you lay the blame at the feet of "a Comhaltas organiser".

I gather from other sources that failed X-Factor contestants are roaming the land demanding floorspots in folk clubs although I haven't encountered them myself.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:35 AM

Bryan - No you have got it wrong. Sorry.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM

No offence taken at all Cappuccino - I was just a bit curious and you have very ably satisfied my curiousity:-) Still some good sessions and clubs around here but nowhere near as many:-( I saw John Mayalls bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton at the Free Trade in the 70s as well - what a gig! Free Trade Hall is now an Hotel but that is a completely different gripe!

Richard, I know It's not up to you to tell people who may and who may not play and sing was directed at Jim but, if Jim is a folk club organiser, then yes it is! At my club it is up to the organisers who sings and plays. As I keep saying, on a singers night we currently have a 'come all ye' policy, if you can call it that. On a guest night we are choosey. We DO tell people who may and may not sing - and that includes joining in if necessary. Although we have only ever had to stop one person from joining in. One of the non-improvers I may add!

As to You are saying some people should be prevented from singing or playing No it isn't. Everyone is entitled to do what the hell they want, law and decent behaviour permitting, but not at my club on a guest night. If you feel that anyone is entitled to sing and play anywhare then let me know your address so I cam come round and spoil your evening:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:18 AM

I saw Rachel Unthank and The Winterset last Friday at Caistor Primary School with an audience of about 120. I suspect most of these people had never seen them before.
So I was very interested in how they would be as an audience.

The audience were brilliant. They listened and didn't talk through the songs. They applaud loudly and enthusiastically at the end of each song. They joined in with the chorus when asked by the band.

My opinion about the audience - impeccably well mannered.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:04 AM

Richard,
"It doesn't matter whether we are as good as you and the Captain, or whether we aren't or whether either of you are as good as you think you are"
Are you deliberately distorting what people are saying here? - I don't sing, I don't consider myself a singer any more, I have never been anything other than a passable singer and I am certainly not attempting to masquerade as better than anyone - and , in case you missed it, I've said this at least three times on this thread in response to similar distortions by you. I can only assume that that you are repeating this to cover your paucity of ideas?
"No-one appointed you or anyone else as custodian of what is or is not good enough."
As a non- performer I have as much right as anybody to comment on the scene as I see it, it's called 'free speech', - or would you reserve that for only those who perform. Maybe in your world 'some are more equal than others'?
Anybody involved in the music and having an interest in its future has a right to say what they believe to be bad and good - as far as I'm concerned - good singing = good, bad singing in public = bad, insulting to the audiences (present or potential) and detrimental to the future of the music - as has been more than adequately proved by the disappearance of the clubs and he music.
Nick,
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear; I've repeated it often enough on this thread and elsewhere - maybe I should have been more specific.
The performance of the music at clubs became unskilled and uninspiring - as far as I'm concerned the songs and music are just as important and entertaining as they ever were, that's why I continue to work at them.
This argument is about whether it remains in the doldrums for the benefit of the inexperienced, untalented and uninspired, or we move it on by applying standards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

Jim

I don't fundamentally disagree with you about standards that's not the part of your view that I find bizarre.

'Folk music died because it became unskilled and uninspiring.' How could that happen? If it was fine and loved and popular and sought after how could it have been such an ephemeral fad?

The bit that I don't understand is why you and the other three quarters you refer to let it change if it was so popular. And implicitly within that how people would come flocking back if it was like it was then - and I can't really see where you point to the evidence for that because I haven't seen it. I see plenty of music going on but precious little 'pure folk music' whether it be at folk clubs, singarounds, sessions or festivals that I have been to (and I go to at least 1 or 2 music things a week). But I go to places where I'm sure that people believe they are doing something that they see as being (at least) folk inspired. I had a pleasant afternoon in the wilds of north Yorkshire this weekend listening to a range of song and music of which some was unaccompanied traditional song and some wasn't. And the standard varied. It was really nice to meet and chat to John Connolly who happened to be sitting behind me in the singaround whose songs I really enjoy and listen to a range of music most of which I would say was of a decent standard. Wasn't many locals there it was a little narrow group of enthusaiasts who enjoy their hobby (and drinking!)

And I think people were enjoying themselves and enjoying sharing music together. In my simple way I still have a feeling that a lot of folk music sprung out of the same impulse of sharing and enjoying - I've always thought of song as a peculiarly happy thing that human beings do.

The event that you referred to has got more popular over time and yet now is no good. You rarely go places because you know they will be no good. People sometimes just attend events to support something that is going on in a local community - a bit like going to the village Xmas pantomine that you know will be no better than it was last year but it's the right thing to do.

I don't think that traditional music is as popular as you think it is - I think it is very popular with a narrow band of people and sometimes in it's most popular and accessible forms does touch and engage large numbers of people. My sister used to go to the London folk clubs in the 60s because folk was "where it's at" for a while but if I went and looked in her record collection there would be nothing there that would come near the definition of folk music that you hold. But she was part of the interest at that time because it was popular. There's probably a Donovan album and one by the Spinners but it's probably as close as she gets, and I think she enjoyed Riverdance when she went.

You say that 'that there are still those around who care enough to try and change things'. To what? Back to something in the past or forward into something that is different? Things evolve and there is an inevitability that things don't stay the same.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:25 PM

I'm only back because I was PM'd. You aren't listening Jim. You don't want to listen Jim. You pretend you can't understand plain words Jim. It's not up to you to tell people who may and who may not play and sing Jim.

It doesn't matter whether we are as good as you and the Captain, or whether we aren't or whether either of you are as good as you think you are (if that's what you think) or as bad as you think you are (if that's what you think)..

No-one appointed you or anyone else as custodian of what is or is not good enough.

Please stop pretending you are saying or meaning something different. You are saying some people should be prevented from singing or playing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

Sorry DeG, I wasn't getting at Jim - it was he who used the phrase 'one-horse town'. If I read it right, he said he was in a 'one-horse rural town/village in the arsehole of nowhere'. I was merely quoting his post and asking politely where he was, in case there was any chance of getting there to see his venue.

No offence intended. Lord knows, after being on this forum, on and off, for ten years or so, I'm very wary of causing offence !!!

As it turns out, I've just looked up his town - and now I want to go there.

I heard some great sessions in Manchester when I was last living there, DeG... but that was in the 70s. Good folk clubs, and even the occasional great blues legend at the Free Trade Hall, but of course that's another story. (I'm convinced I once saw Howlin' Wolf and Freddie King on the same bill there, but the memory plays tricks after all these years).

Cappuccino.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM

Subject: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber - PM
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

We had a new person at our folk club last night, he had a couple of guitars and a dulcimer. He waas obviously looking for gigs andhad a list of folk clubs which he had visited. Very talented if you like folk rock.

BUT Oh dear, oh dear, he:

                     Looked bored when other people were performing

                     Played with his guitar strap instead of
                     looking at the performer

ASubject: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber - PM
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

We had a new person at our folk club last night, he had a couple of guitars and a dulcimer. He waas obviously looking for gigs andhad a list of folk clubs which he had visited. Very talented if you like folk rock.

BUT Oh dear, oh dear, he:

                     Looked bored when other people were performing

                     Played with his guitar strap instead of
                     looking at the performer

AND WORST OF ALL HE CRUNCHED CRISPS AND NIBBLED NUTS.

Set me thinkin about folk club manners. When my son first started in folk at the age of 16 I told him:

NEVER come in or go out when people are performing.

NEVER sing a song which you know someone does regularly.

What examples of bad folk club manners can you give?

What advice would you give?

Amber
AND WORST OF ALL HE CRUNCHED CRISPS AND NIBBLED NUTS
was he called Squirrel Nutkin?.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM

Cappuccino
Miltown Malbay.
Don't know who suggested Comhaltas was in any way to blame for the 'alleged' parlous state of the clubs; it seems many of those involved are managing the job quite well without their assistance (what's the X Factor - used to be a brand of washing powder?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:45 PM

Can I make sure I'm getting this right. The present (alleged) parlous state of UK folk clubs is the fault of Comhaltas and the X-Factor.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:40 PM

I know I will probably regret this but why does Jim's experience being different to yours turn him town into the 'one-horse' category, Cappuccino? We have sessions in and around Manchester that are very inclusive of the audience and I think, well, last time I counted anyway, there is more than one horse here:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:27 PM

nick, sessions are not about ignoring the punters.
those that do ignore,will find that the publican turns round and says sorry go else where.
publicans are struggling at the moment to make ends meet,
Pubs here in rural ireland,are disappearing.,they [publicans] are all looking at ways of getting people into their premises,the last thing they need ,is introspective musical wankers,who are more concerned about what twiddle[and whether it is in keeping with the irish tradition] they put in to the turn of a tune,and who are only concerned with their own clique.,and whose music has lost all joy, because it ended up their own arses years ago,along with comhaltas obsession with ornamentation.
all pub musicians, have to interact with the punters,otherwise the landlord will put on a quiz night or some other jamboree instead.
there are plenty of idiot musicians with this holier than thou attitude they are not doing the music or anyone else any favours,they are perfect examples of boring competence.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

Where is your one-horse town, Jim?

- Cappuccino

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM

Nick,
If my views are bizarre then they apply to every single performance activity - unless you can name one where standards don't apply and where people will continue to support activities which are poorly carried out?
Folk music died because it became unskilled and uninspiring. I watched as the clubs, apart from the ones where the opposite was the case, gradually (and in some cases, not so gradually) emptied. I followed a recent thread inquiring about where to hear singing in London and was absolutely staggered at the lack of response - this from a city that boasted a multiple choice seven nights a week.
Blaming those (three quarters of the scene) of us who walked away when the music became unlistenable to is, a suppose, a good cop-out for those who refuse to guarantee audiences a good standard, but there are enough hits on this thread to suggest that there are still those around who care enough to try and change things.
Last night we put on an excellently attended concert of local musicians and singers to raise money to pay for the premises we have recently purchased for the musical archive and resource centre we have established in this 'one-horse rural town/village in the arsehole of nowhere'.
I got a chance to talk to a number of people who attended the marathon sing-in of the night before - I didn't meet one of them who would be going back there - the reason they gave - 'too much crap singing mixed in with a tiny handful of singers who could find their way around a tune' - says it all really.
"Applause is neither sought nor acknowledged"
Sessions here are also occasions where musicians and listeners communicate with each other - it really is the 'done thing'. You Never get the 'me musician, you listener' syndrome, Cappuccino described so vividly (not even at last nights concert).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 09:00 PM

Sessions are a different beast.

Applause is neither sought nor acknowledged - it is about the tunes. They were not being rude just doing what all session players do.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM

>>This is our 4th visit - we last visited this club four years ago - the only thing that has changed is the number attending - much bigger - the poor singing has grown in proportion to the attendance and there is no sign whatever of the old hands improving (as far as I could make out).

At last I understand where you are coming from, Jim.

Folk music is an elite and narrow beast that can only be true itself by being accessible to the few.
The only way it can be spoiled is by people being a part of it because they will break it because they are not good enough for it. Low attendance is a prerequisite of quality because it is for the few.

But yet you keep going back - which looks like a triumph of hope over experience.

In answer to your question should you go back - Yes of course. It will serve to reinforce your rather bizarre views

I think I now understand why folk music died and why there are so few folk clubs - people like you killed the thing you thought you were protecting.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM

Wonder if she could/can sing in tune and remember the words?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: peregrina
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

Anyone here hear Pam Ayres talking about her enthusiasm for folk clubs in the 70s on BBC radio 4's Saturday live this morning (plus a favourite shantey at the end)? A nice tribute to the openness and inclusiveness of the ones she went to.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

Cappucino,
          You say you do not wish to offend anyone by revealing the venue where you experienced a bad night. Why not say, for goodness sake? Surely by doing so, if anyone associated with the conduct you describe gets the message then maybe there is a chance of improvement. By keeping it confidential there is little chance of that. Take a leaf out of the t.v. programmes that reveal bad and sometimes criminal behaviour and let the public and the practitioners know.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:22 AM

You are quite right Cappucino - I would see it as extreme bad manners as well.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:20 AM

PS - Confused of Munster - If you don't like it just ignore it in the hope that it wil go away

Uncle David

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cappuccino
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM

Many apologies – I had missed this thread (only a thousand entries!) and now find it's relevant to something I had been wondering about posting.

I'll avoid the location, because I don't want to offend, but it was a pub, deep in the west country (UK). We booked a few days' rest and peace at this quiet out-of-the-way pub, and partly because we noticed it promoted a folk night. Great!   Arrived at the pub and saw 'folk music' promoted on a board outside. All very promising.

Come the night, the customers sitting, and indeed dining, near the nice log fire were all moved elsewhere, because 'that's where the musicians sit'.   The musicians arrived – about nine of them, I think, couple of guitars, accordion, two or three fiddles, bodhran, usual stuff.   They all sat in a circle by the log fire, which meant that at least half of them had their backs to everyone else in the pub.

They played the kind of tunes you would expect, and weren't bad at all.

But some things niggled me.

After several of the tunes, the customers in the bar applauded. The applause was completely ignored by this circle of musicians.   Some people attempted to speak to the musicians – they were ignored, too. The musicians spoke only to each other.

Surely, if a venue promotes music as an attraction, then the musicians should be playing to the audience, not to themselves? If it's a 'session', you must say so in the publicity, or otherwise it suggests a 'show', someone entertaining an audience?

Even in a session situation in a pub, is it acceptable for the musicians to play in a closed private circle, with their backs to the audience? Surely, even if it is a 'session' and not a 'show', it is appalling bad manners for any musicians to ignore applause?      

Or am I wrong to be miffed about this? (And after so many years on this forum, I should know better than to ask such a question!).

What an appalling image for the folk scene to put out.

Cheers
Cappuccino