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Subject: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Ross Campbell Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:39 PM I,ve just been watching a programme on BBC2 (UK), 2.15-3.15am Thurs 23rd October: Thames Shipwrecks: A Race Against Time Part two of two. Maritime archaeologist Frank Pope and historian and TV presenter Tessa Dunlop unearth the stories behind seven shipwrecks in the river Thames, from one of the last great sailing ships of the Empire to the iconic Thames Barge that supplied Victorian Britain. One of the wrecks they investigated was a "Bawley Boat", the Thames Estuary version of the small fishing smacks common all round the coast of Britain. Google produced a couple of definitions - one referred to a Bawley Bay near Gravesend which may have given the name - another suggested the name derived from the boilers which were latterly used to boil (or "bawl" in local dialect) the shrimp so that they could be sold directly on landing the catch. Many years ago Jean Ritchie (kytrad) kindly repeated the words for her family's song "Loving Hannah" for me while I scribbled them down. The last verse I had this way:- "Oh, I wish I was in London, or some other seaport town I'd set my foot on a barley boat, and I'd sail the seas all around" I always wondered about the "barley boat" line, as grain boats crossing the Atlantic would normally carry wheat. Barley for malting for the whisky distillery industry grows readily in the UK climate and would not usually need to be imported. My question is this:- could the Thames "Bawley boat" be the "barley boat" of the song? The reference to London as the seaport town of choice for the wounded lover has proximity in its favour.It's easy to imagine that the "Bawley" reference might quickly lose its meaning away from there, to be replaced by something that seemed to make sense to the singer. Against: I believe the song has not been collected in its entirety in the British Isles. (Some floating verses occur in other songs, and "Handsome Molly" has similarities). Although now well known in England, Scotland and Ireland, I think the versions you would hear in song sessions all derive from Jean Ritchie herself. While in Britain on a Fulbright scholarship (1952-3), she recorded "Loving Hannah" at Abbey Road studios along with some other songs. They were issued on 78s. Elizabeth Cronin loved the song and soon adopted it into her repertoire, from where it may have percolated down to younger singers such as Mary Black. I've just checked Jean Ritchie's corrected version of "Loving Hannah" here:- thread.cfm?threadid=85261#1596770 and note that she has "bally boat" (possibly pronounced "bawl" rather than "bahl"?) It's getting late (early?) I'll sign off before I confuse myself even further! Ross Thread #85261 Message #1596770 Posted By: Joe Offer 03-Nov-05 - 05:12 PM Thread Name: DTStudy: Songs of Jean Ritchie Subject: DTStudy: Loving Hannah
LOVING HANNAH |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: MartinRyan Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:30 AM It's a more plausible explanation of a puzzle than many you'll find around here! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Ernest Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM Sailing the seas (in other songs that use the phrase such as "Handsome Molly": world?) around in what you describe as "a small fishing smack" (probably not suited for the high seas) doesn`t sound that plausible to me.... Unfortunately I don`t have a better idea/explanation... Regards Ernest |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Ross Campbell Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM That was one thought that occured to me, Ernest. However, although small, these boats were considered very seaworthy, they could be handled in seas that would give larger vessels problems, and their movements would not be restricted to the Thames estuary. Google reveals that in World War Two a large number of Bawley boats joined the flotilla of small craft that assisted in the Evacuation of Dunkirk (maybe forty or fifty miles across the English Channel?) Here in Fleetwood, Morecambe Bay prawners would be the regional equivalent of Bawley boats. In their day they could readily manage a trip to the Isle of Man or even Ireland. And if you think the Irish Sea might be relatively sheltered, check out the fate of the Riverdance in February of this year:- http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/photo831691.htm (After fruitless attempts to refloat her, the vessel was cut up on the sands. Demolition is almost completed). Ross |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: peregrina Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM fascinating explanation |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Ross Campbell Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM Thanks, Peregrina. I've been singing "barley boat" instead of "bally boat" for some time (no idea how long), an unconscious change which still left me unconvinced that I had the right word. Indeed, the last time I sang "Loving Hannah", Fleetwood Folk Club's Ron Baxter asked about the term. As an ex-Merchant Navy man who knows his history, he couldn't figure out where a "barley boat" might have been going. I couldn't offer a satisfactory explanation, so when I heard the expression "Bawley boat" on the Thames Shipwrecks programme, I sat up and paid attention! A little investigation provided the information above. A few more Google finds:- E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898. Bawley Boat (A). A small fishing-smack used on the coasts of Kent and Essex, about the mouth of the Thames and Medway. Bawleys are generally about 40 feet long, 13 feet beam, 5 feet draught, and from 15 to 20 tons measurement. They differ in rig from a cutter in having no booms to the mainsail, which is, consequently, easily brailed up when working the trawl nets. They are half-decked, with a wet well to keep fish alive. There's one for sale here (the last Bawley boat to be built, 1981). And a Youtube video of a reconstruction project, making a rudder for a Bawley boat with a couple of pictures of the complete vessel (the "Doris" of Leigh). Ross |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: peregrina Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM More still, wow. well, I'm convinced and reading about this kind of sleuthing is a treasure of mudcat... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Ernest Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM Just found a copy of the song from "Sing Out!" Vol. 41 #3 where it says "bonny boat". Also that Jean Ritchie learned the complete words from her fathers cousin "Grandpa Isom" Ritchie in the early 40s. Best Ernest |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Ross Campbell Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM There's still the question of how a Bawley boat would get from the Thames to Kentucky without leaving any trace of the song at the English end of the journey. Although I guess there are many songs found in the USA, Canada, Australia and elsewhere which owe their continued existence to the emigrants who carried them over. Jean Ritchie reckons the song goes back in her family the best part of two hundred years. Ross |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM Curious: The song isn't in Jean's 'Appalachian Songs' and her version printed in Lomax's FS of North America doesn't have this verse. Curiouser: The song's not that scarce, particularly in Ireland. Sam Henry published 2 versions. Curiouser and curiouser: This type of lyric piece describing parting is particularly prone to attracting floaters or commonplaces which is what has happened here. Other American versions which have similar verses are: I wish I was in some sea-port, Or in some sea-port town; I set my foot on sea board And sail this ocean round. Mellinger Henry, FS from the S Highlands. I wish I was in London Or some other seaport town I'd set myself on a steamship And sail the ocean round. Songs from Sing Out 11. The only thing this side that comes near is the traveller verse I wish I was in old Ireland Lyin' on the grass, With a prayer-book upon my lap And upon my breast a cross. Though I haven't seen a broadside version yet I'd put money on the origin being a Belfast broadside. As for 'barley' I'd try looking for a Northern Irish or American origin. 'Bully boat' is a common expression. 'Bally' is a common Irish place name prefix, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: MartinRyan Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:21 PM DOn't see the Irish "bally" (baile - home, place, town) being much help here. bullybonny have more general appeal, I reckon. Ask John Moulden re the Belfast hypothesis? Reagrds |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Charley Noble Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:36 PM Ross- I'm thinking that the term "bally" is commonly used in West Indies shanties, such as the rowing shanty "Hell of a Wedding on the Congo River": Who do you think do the music for them? Way, hey! Hey, me bully boys! De bally band an' de drum fish playing, Way, hey! Hey, me bully boys! I'm not sure what "bally" means in that context either but evidently it's a positive adjective. And it may have no relation to a "bally boat." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:42 PM For more on Jean Ritchie's set, see the discussion mentioned earlier: DTStudy: Loving Hannah. Ordinarily I wouldn't attach much weight to a 'Sing Out' text unless properly provenanced, but Josephine McGill's Folk-Songs of the Kentucky Mountains (1917) is probably the earliest 'Loving Hannah' form we have, noted in 1914, and in it too the stanza runs If I were on some ocean or in some foreign town I'd put my foot in a bonny boat and sail the world around. The 1918 text in Sharp, English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians (II, 254) has I wish I was in London Or in some seaport town I'd set my foot on water-ship And sail the ocean around. Titled 'The Irish Girl' because it had acquired the opening verses of that song, the heroine is 'handsome Mary'. As 'Handsome Molly', there are four versions at the Max Hunter Collection. The relevant verses are as follows: I wish I was in London E'r some little seaport town I'd set my foot in a steamboat I'd sail this ocean 'round I'll set my foot on ship, boys And sail the ocean 'round And sail the ocean 'round I wish I were in London Or some seaport town Set my foot in a steamboat Sail th ocean 'round Well, I wish I was in London Or some other seaport town I'd set my feet on a steamboat Sail th ocean 'round Henry, Folk Songs From the Southern Highlands (1938): I wish I was in some sea-port Or in some sea-port town I set my foot on sea-board And sail this ocean round There's a further text with tune in the DT: Handsome Molly, but no source of any kind is acknowledged. See also other earlier discussions here (links have now appeared, I see, at the top of the page) which touch on the same questions. These are the only versions I have to hand that contain the verse; those Irish forms (and their American and Canadian derivatives) that I've seen don't include it. They often have a 'I wish I was in...' line, but it always develops differently: no boat. Jean Ritchie's 'bally' or 'barley' boat notwithstanding (she was told by her family that it meant 'good', 'fine', 'beautiful' -see thread ), I really think that we're just looking at the ballad-commonplace 'bonny boat'. The 'bawley boat' idea is ingenious (and not impossible; it's been suggested here before, in the thread just mentioned) but unlikely; mainly because it's a local term belonging to an area where no form of the song has ever been found, and because most forms of the song don't contain anything remotely resembling it. The Bodleian Collection does actually contain a broadside edition of 'Loving Hannah'; but it was printed by The Broadsheet King around 1970; no idea where he got it from. No image is available. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM That should have been 'see thread Loving Hannah (sung by Jean Ritchie)' |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Charley Noble Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:13 AM And the West Indies use of "bally" that is well documented in DEEP THE WATER, SHALLOW THE SHORE by Dr. Roger D. Abrahams? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Charley Noble Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:40 AM In "Put on the bally shoes and the fly green socks" the socks are beautiful and attractive, according to a research article on Black dialect in the Southern states. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM Surely that ties it up! Bally = Bonny. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Charley Noble Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:46 AM refresh? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: GUEST,Sandy Paton Date: 26 Oct 08 - 12:33 AM Caroline and I learned "Lovin' Hannah" from Jeannie Robertson and always thought it was Scottish. But when we stayed with Jeannie in Aberdeen in 1958, she told us she had learned the song from Jean Ritchie. Of, perhaps, some interest: I collected a version of "Handsome Molly" (although she's not named in the song) from Abe Trivett in Butler, Tennessee. His text for the veerse in question offered: I wish I was in London, or some other seaport town; I'd step my foot on a bordered ship and sail the ocean 'round. We assumed the 82-year-old mountain man had simply corrupted "on board a ship," but we so enjoyed the corruption that we have always sung it exactly as he gave it to us. Sandy (making a very rare visit to the Mudcat) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Ross Campbell Date: 26 Oct 08 - 02:41 AM Youtube - Jean Ritchie sings LOVING HANNAH |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM Great stuff. Wonder why she never sang that verse for Lomax in the 50s???? Folk process perhaps. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:16 AM Sorry to hi-jack this fascinating thread but... Does anybody know or has anyone heard the parody of 'Loving Hannah' which contains, among other phrases, "by the look in her glass eye"! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Sep 18 - 11:28 PM Here's a question I got by email: I was recently searching the internet when I came across your website. I was looking for information about a song and found one similar to some lyrics that I purchased at an auction. The lyrics go like this: "I road to church last Sunday And my love she passed me by I knew her mind was changing by the rolling of her eye". "I knew her mind was changing to some other high degree ????? I my lovely Mary why can't you fancy me". It also contains three more verses. Some of the writing is difficult to make out. It looks to be titled "Lovely Mary Hannash", is original and handwritten and is dated 1864. Would you have any information on this or where else I might find information? Thanks, Charles Indiana |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: The Sandman Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:03 PM bowley is acrruption of shrimp boiler these boats were made in north essex by one firm ,i think they were made in manningtree. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: The Sandman Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM my apoliogies, bawleys were built by aldous of brightlingsea |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: The Sandman Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:43 PM Inishowen Song Project Collections Publications Singers Songs Videos About the Project About Inishowen ? ITMA Online Collections Going to mass last Sunday, song / Denis McDaid, singing in English 00:00 Meeting is a pleasure between my true love and I Away down in yonder valley I’ll meet her by and by Away down in yonder valley there dwells my heart’s delight And it’s with you lovely Molly I could spend till broad daylight Going to Mass last Sunday my wee love she passed me by I knew her mind was altered by the rolling of her eye I knew her mind was altered to that lad of higher degree Oh Molly lovely Molly your looks have wounded me I can plough a short furrow and I can plough it long I can court with the auld ones till a young one comes along I can pass by them as shyly as they can pass by me But it’s Molly lovely Molly your looks have wounded me When you meet a pretty fair maid with a dark and rolling eye Just kiss her and embrace her and tell her the reason why Just kiss her and embrace her till you cause her heart to yield For a tender hearted soldier never will never gain field Fare ye well dear Malin Town likewise to Altashane Fare ye well dear Isle of Doagh I might never see you again For Americay it lies far away and it I’m going to see That I maybe lost forever for we’re parted my love and me |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: meself Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:18 PM Helen Creighton collected a version of that latter song in Nova Scotia, which she published with the title, 'Courting is a Pleasure'. Very different tune, though, from the Loving Hannah tune I'm familiar with. To my mind, they are different songs, although there was obviously some borrowing going on. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: The Sandman Date: 15 Sep 18 - 02:33 AM imo they are the same song |
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Subject: DTStudy: Loving Hannah From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Aug 22 - 09:54 AM LOVING HANNAH (a Ritchie family song, adapted and copyrighted by Jean Ritchie) I rode to church last Sunday, My truelove passed me by, I knew her mind was a-changing By the roving of her eye.
By the roving of her eye, I knew her mind was a-changing By the roving of her eye. My love is fair and proper, Her hands and feet are small; And she is quite good-looking, And that's the best of all.
And that's the best of all, And she is quite good looking, And that's the best of all. O Hannah, loving Hannah, Come give to me your hand, You said if you ever married, That I would be the man.
That I would be the man, You said if you ever married, That I would be the man. I'll go down by the waters When everyone is asleep, I'll think of loving Hannah, And then sit down and weep.
And then sit down and weep, And think on loving Hannah, And then sit down and weep. I wish I were in London Or some other seaport town, I'd set my foot on a bally boat And I'd sail them seas all around. I'd sail them seas all around, I'd sail them seas all around, I'd set my foot on a bally boat And I'd sail them seas all around © 1964 Jean Ritchie/Geordie Music Publishing Company Excerpt from Jean's notes:
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: The Sandman Date: 25 Aug 22 - 07:47 AM joe in loving hannah I wish I were in London Or some other seaport town, I'd set my foot on a bally boat And I'd sail them seas all around. I'd sail them seas all around, I'd sail them seas all around, I'd set my foot on a bally boat And I'd sail them seas all around ballyboat, surely this is bawley, which was a kind of boat bawleys were built by aldous of brightlingsea i am yet find any trace of bally in kentucky dialect. however bally in American English ('bæli) adjective or adverb. Brit slang. damned (euphemism for bloody) bally in irish means Bally is an extremely common prefix to town names in Ireland, and is derived from the Gaelic phrase 'Baile na', meaning 'place of' sorry Reinhard that does not make sense. bpnny is more likely
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Reinhard Date: 25 Aug 22 - 11:08 AM Jean Ritchie noted in her book Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians: Older menfolk in the Ritchie family, rather than the women for some unknown reason, sang this song: Balis, my Dad, and his cousins Jason and Isom Ritchie. In the sixties, banjo players were singing a more modern version, Handsome Molly. People ask us about “a bally boat” named in the last verse. Some guess it means “barley” boat, but my guess is that “bally” is a Celtic word meaning handsome or pretty, in other words, “a fine, pretty boat”. At any rate, Loving Hannah is a fine, pretty song, and one of my enduring favourites. But see also the thread Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: The Sandman Date: 26 Aug 22 - 02:03 AM it was a guess by jean ritchie, the word bally in irih gaelic does not mean pretty, in scottish gaelic pretty is breagha, so neitrher fit the bill, jean ritchies guess was just wrong. Jean clearly did not know what the word meant, the sensible thing to do here is is sing, set my foot on a sailing boat I wish I were in London Or some other seaport town, I'd set my foot on a SAIL boat And I'd sail them seas all around. I'd sail them seas all around, I'd sail them seas all around, I'd set my foot on a SAIL boat And I'd sail them seas all around |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Aug 22 - 02:13 AM Dick and Reinhard - I moved your posts over here. The "Songs of Jean Ritchie" thread is meant to cover a number of Jean Ritchie songs from her songwooks, with little discussion. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: DTStudy: Songs of Jean Ritchie From: The Sandman Date: 26 Aug 22 - 02:15 AM JEAN RITCHIE was making a guess and it was wrong, bally in irish means place of in scottish gaelic pretty is breagha, so both are incorrect, the thing to do hear is change bally to something like this I wish I were in London Or some other seaport town, I'd set my foot on a sail boat And I'd sail them seas all around. I'd sail them seas all around, I'd sail them seas all around, I'd set my foot on a sail boat And I'd cross/sail them seas all around, bally in englsh slang means damn please no more uninformed incorrect guesses, as far as i am concerned the word bally is used by upper class english aristocrats like lord peter wimsey, this sort of conversation, between lord peter and his servant Bunter can you get me a bally boat, yes your lordship would you like your bally boat to have a cock tail cabinet |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Loving Hannah - Bawley Boat? From: The Sandman Date: 26 Aug 22 - 02:20 AM Dick, I posted the text exactly as I found it in Jean Ritchie's Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians, pp 95-96. I do not make corrections to the texts I post. I wish Jean were still here to explain this word to us. -Joe- She clearly did not know what it meant, why go on repeating a mondegreen?, traditional music has to evolve it is not a museum artefact, sing something that makes sense, this reminds me of a nosense verse in wildwood flower that the opriginal carter family sang |
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