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Tunebooks online

GUEST, Sminky 24 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM
TheSnail 24 Oct 08 - 11:45 AM
Wolfhound person 24 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM
Jack Campin 24 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM
TheSnail 28 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM
SteveMansfield 28 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM
Will Fly 28 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,Tjunbuk author! 28 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM
Joe Offer 28 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM
TheSnail 28 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM
GUEST, Sminky 29 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM
Tootler 29 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM
Wolfhound person 29 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM
TheSnail 29 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM
Domnull 29 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM
Domnull 29 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM
Jack Campin 29 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM
SteveMansfield 30 Oct 08 - 03:56 AM
TheSnail 30 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Pat 30 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM
Domnull 02 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM
Domnull 02 Nov 08 - 02:52 PM
Jack Campin 02 Nov 08 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,domnull 03 Nov 08 - 06:48 AM
Will Fly 04 Nov 08 - 07:29 AM
Les in Chorlton 04 Nov 08 - 08:50 AM
Will Fly 04 Nov 08 - 08:53 AM
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Subject: Tunebooks online
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

I've just come across this website called Tju:nbuk which "aims to provide an easy to use repository of public domain tunes. You can search for tunes, view the sheet music, hear the tune and add them to your own collection, or tunebook.".

They (though it's not obvious who they are) claim to have 373 tunes in 14 tunebooks - though I can only count 10 - including 7 of the Lewes Arms tunebooks.

You can search by Time signature, Key signature and/or Rhythm.

A very useful resource, if a little mysterious. Does anyone know more about this?


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM

No real source information is given, so my initial impression is that the site has been put up by somebody who has no respect for the people from whom the tunes came or for those who originally published them. The Lewes Tunebooks are not 'public domain' (though they contain material that is, in other forms, public domain) and they have had trouble in the past with unscrupulous people pirating them lock-stock-and-barrel without permission.

At present the site is in what it describes as 'beta' mode, so perhaps proper information will be added by the time it officially goes live. Meanwhile, I'd treat it with caution until we know whether or not Lewes has consented to the reproduction of the material they have published without any of the contextual detail.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:45 AM

Waiting to hear back from Andy Warburton, the main man behind The Lewes Favourites, and fellow collaborator Valmai Goodyear. I certainly know nothing of these people.

The book can be ordered and the tunes downloaded in Noteworthy, ABC and MIDI format from 'The Lewes Favourites'

More later.

Bryan Creer (Lewes Arms Folk Club)


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

A very cursory inspection suggests they haven't done their homework thoroughly. At least one tune (Caddam Woods) has a composer and is still in copyright.
I can't comment on the Lewes books, but the Minstrelsy collection is out of copyright, as they've done their own setting.

Paws


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM

I wonder whose version of the Northumbrian Minstrelsy they nicked? It isn't mine (wich is complete, they only have the pipe tunes).

Pales into insignificance compared with novosaires.com, though.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM

I'd just like to confirm that none of those involved with the Lewes Favourites Tune Book have any prior knowledge of this website. We have not been approached for permission.

The book involved a considerable amount of hard work by Andy Warburton with help from others including myself and Valmai Goodyear and other local musicians. All profits from sales of the book go to help fund the Lewes Arms Folk Club and any future publications. None of us benefit personally; we even pay for our own copies of the book. The tunes are posted on our website as a service to fellow musicians and as a way of drawing visitors to our site to see our other activities.

The Tju:nbuk website carries advertising so they are already profiting from it. Their future plans include Professionally Published Tunebooks of which they say "You no longer have to buy a commercial collection, just to get hold of the few tunes you want.". This is a blatant attempt to cash in on our work and to undermine our sales.

We are considering what action to take. In the meantime, please do not download Lewes Favourites material from this site. Go to 'The Lewes Favourites' first.

Bryan Creer (Lewes Arms Folk Club)


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM

I'd also like to point out that the umf_faq tunes file from my LeSession site is also there without my permission.

Whilst this tune list was put together with no commercial purpose, and was intended solely to act as a resource for the FAQ of the uk.music.folk newsgroup, I've pretty fed up that

- I've not been contacted for permission to reproduce this material, - that there is no acknowledgment of the provenance of the file, and - that these parasites are basically leeching off of my work and that of the umf community.

I shall be sending them a protest email as soon as I've taken all the rude words out of my first draft, which may take some time. In the mean time please do not download anything from this site, and for the tune file please go to http://www.lesession.co.uk/umf.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM

I've just sent an email to the site, querying their right to use the material and asking them to say who they are and why they are profiting (through advertising) from other people's work. Wonder if they'll reply...

There is a common assumption on the part of many people that the laws of copyright and the proprieties of attribution don't count if it's "the internet". Unfortunately they do, just as much as for any publishing medium.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: GUEST,Tjunbuk author!
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

Dear Bryan, Valmai, David and Will

please may I apologise for openly publishing your work on my new website, tjunbuk.com. I have been using your work as 'sample data' for my website whilst I have been developing it. I had not intended to publish the tunes live on the internet, though I think I probably should have sought your permission first before using them in any way. I hope you believe me that is not my intention to ever steal another person's hard work. I can only say that this was an accident, but it was certainly an avoidable one that I should not have allowed to happen. I would appreciate if you would allow me to explain how this came about, including my intentions of this site.

My name is Pat Turner, and I am a beginning musician. I decided to learn the English Concertina about a year ago, and I have made some progress largely due to people such as yourselves publishing your tunebooks on the internet. However, I have also found it very frustrating trying to find out what each of the tunes you have transcribed/written actually sounds like. I have benefitted very much from sites such as concertina.net with their tune-a-tron which allows me to generate a midi version of the tune, but I thought there must be a way of making a simpler user interface.

I am also a web developer and I saw this as an opportunity to create a website that would provide improved access to the thousands of folk tunes that are in existence. The main improvement I wanted as a beginner was to be able to browse tunes and to hear them easily without having to go through the trouble of another site's converter. I also wanted to be able to collect songs I liked into 'tunebooks' so that I could organise my attempts at learning them. As I thought more about it, I thought of more and more 'features' that could be added to such a site. Then a while ago, I had an opportunity to devote my full working days to making this happen. I have taken this opportunity and have spent about a month putting this site together. As I hope you will appreciate, I am still very much a beginner and I used your abc sources as the basis for developing the site. Using these I could pretend to be a user of the site, and check that someone could add tunes that they have written to the database.

When I do properly open the site, I intend for only genuine authors/transcribers to upload their own tunes. I did have full intentions to email yourselves and many of the other people who publish their abc music with invitations to use the service. But you would have to had put it on the site yourselves, or to have given me express permission to do so. I very much regret that I may have sullied any such positive relationship that we may have had.

I have read the mudcat thread and I'd like to deal with some issues raised there:
Public domain material: My intention for the site is that users can search for 'public domain' tunes. I.e. tunes that are no longer in copyright - mostly folk tunes. I had intended for users to search for a tune, and be able to hear and see many different 'variations' that had been provided from different transcribers. I've noticed in thesession.com, that when someone uploads a tune, someone quite often presents a variation in the comments. I wanted to allow users to have a simple way of listening to the difference. So the 'tune' should regarded as be public domain, but the transcription is a different matter. More on that next...

BTW 'Wolfhound_person' is correct in that I haven't done my homework as I didn't know that 'Caddam Woods' was still in copyright.

Copyright and licensing: I think that whoever transcribes an out of copyright tune has copyright over that transcription and I want my site to take that into account. My approach to copyright protection was going to be threefold:
1. Provide a highly visible way of reporting copyright infringement, with possible sanctions against users who add tunes that are not theirs.
2. Provide a facility to attach a licence agreement to each tune's usage. I haven't done much work on this yet (its suddenly jumped to top of the list), but I was looking at the creative commons licence. If users wanted a different licence agreement, they would provide a link to it.
3. Provide a way for users who add transcriptions to link back to the original source. I was wondering about having some very fancy system that checked for changes in the original source, but this might be pretty tricky to implement.

Google Ads: Well I have to hold my hands up here. I am developing this website as a commercial venture. I have absolutely no idea what sort of income you can generate through Google Ads, but I'm not holding my breath on becoming a millionnaire. I have also integrated with Amazon.com so that users can download mp3s or buy CDs of commercial recordings. These revenue streams are more of a way to fund the site itself though. I have considered going to the arts council or similar to get public funding, but at the moment its just me, so any help through ads or amazon purchases will help in some way. Also, please note that the site isn't supposed to be live yet: I don't know if it ever will be if I upset my potential users any more, but at the moment I'm not expecting to generate any money through the ads.

Printing tunes and CDs: This idea might not happen as I can't find a cost effective publisher. My intention was for people to get professionally bound prints of their tunebooks. I also wanted for users to upload mp3s so they can be used on CDs. I had thought about having some sort of royalty system, but I don't know if that would be workable, or desirable. Anyhow, the publishing feature is probably not going to happen.

I'm very sorry that you found my site in this way - I have no idea how you did, as I can't seem to get one hit on google! I had intended to invite you all as beta testers, once the site was in a fit state. I hope you would still consider this in the future, but I fully understand if you don't.

Finally, I won't be using your abc sources again, even in development, unless you do give me permission. I will transcribe some tunes myself, and hope that when the time comes to open up the site, some of you do decide to use it.

Thanks for your time in reading this.
Pat Turner


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

This is always a sticky question, and I don't think there are clear-cut answers. If we put too much effort into protecting copyright (and whatever rights by transcribers of traditional songs), we also serve to restrict access to the song somewhat.

If I find a MIDI or lyrics for a traditional song on another Website, is it wrong for me to post it at Mudcat?

I fully support the rights of living songwriters - but if we're too careful about protecting rights, aren't we likely to be helping songs disappear?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM

Joe, it is our intention at the Lewes Favourites and, I'm sure, Steve's at LeSession to promote traditional music as best we can and provide free access to our resources. The confusingly similarly named The Session does similar work. I am sure there are many others. Producing and distributing a tune book and running a folk club cost money. We cannot afford to give away the tune book and any attempt to undermine its commercial viability does us serious damage. None of us are making any money for ourselves.

It was Pat Turner's stated aim to run a commercial website. In his future plans he says "You no longer have to buy a commercial collection, just to get hold of the few tunes you want.". In other words, his intention was to take resources that were being given away for free, repackage them and sell them.

Fortunately, he seems to have seen the error of his ways.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM

In response to Pat's "the site isn't supposed to be live yet", I just want to point out that I was Googling for a tune name and the Tjun:buk site appeared in the listing. And if it did it for me, it would have done it for anybody else.

There is a difference between a website going 'live' (ie visible to the outside world) and its creator announcing that it is live.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM

I can see that Pat has a bit of a problem here. I maintain a small website for our recorder group and for the most part, I develop the pages on my computer then upload them to the web. However, if there is something I want others to check, I find the easiest way is to upload the relevant pages but without any links with the main site, then email round the url and ask others to look and comment.

The thing is that there comes a point in developing a site when you really have to test it on the web proper. Once you do that then anyone can find the pages if they happen to enter appropriate terms in a search engine. It's a risk you have to take.

In the case of the recorder site it mostly doesn't matter very much but in the case of a commercial site like this it does matter and I think it is important that there really needs to be a very prominent warning about the status of the site and of the materials on it on every page (a search engine won't necessarily take you to the home page). Even then seeking the permission from the owners to use their material as examples and to explain what you are doing is still, as a minimum, a necessary courtesy.

My 2.5p worth


I must admit, I didn't know that Caddam Wood was still in copyright. Who wrote it?


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM

Caddam Woods was written by Adam Rennie & John Y Cameron. Adam died in 1960, ( see: http://www.raretunes.org/performers/adam-rennie) so under the 70 year rule, it is copyright until 2030 - to someone, probably a family member unless assigned otherwise.

Whilst most traditional performers/composers' families are extremely happy for their tunes to be popularised by any method, a few are a bit more precious about their (perfectly legitimate) rights, and get hurt if permission is not sought.
Rarely is any money requested; a simple letter and maybe a copy of the publication satisfies most copyright holders.

Paws


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

I'm afraid we have to take responsibility for Caddam Wood. It came to us from a player at our sessions who is usually very accurate on the origins of his tunes. I'll probably see him on Sunday.

It is by Adam Rennie. We will try and find out more.

Bryan Creer (Lewes Arms Folk Club)


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Domnull
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

Here's a nice (114 page) tunebook
http://members.cox.net/eskin/tunebook.html


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Domnull
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM

.....or you could join The Session.org
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/index.php
and make up your own tunebook from the 8100 tunes there!


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM

Domnull, the abc file link on that page doesn't work.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:56 AM

Just to confirm here that I've also now had an apology from Pat at Tjunbuk, reiterating what he said in the reply here to the Lewes folks.

[And if Pat's reading this I've realised that I didn't actually send a private response to his email, so I in turn apologise and I will do tonight.]

One to file under cockup rather than conspiracy I think, and one that was swiftly remedied.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM

I'm sorry to seem harsh, but there are aspects of Pat's apology which make me feel he is still not quite getting the point.

He is clearly a clever chap who could be making a valuable contribution but I think he needs a better understanding of the motivation behind sites such as ours.

Bryan Creer (Lewes Arms Folk Club)


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: GUEST,Pat
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:34 AM

Steve,

thanks for the public acknowledgment of my apology to you. I'm only sorry I didn't include your name in my post above. Another cockup to add to the list I fear.

Bryan,

I'm not sure what I can say to convince you of my intentions. I can only re-iterate that I have absolutely no plan to host any transcription that has been submitted to the site without the full knowledge and approval of its author. I also have absolutely no desire to take away funding from the lewes arms folk club or any other folk comunity website.

I would like to expand on my intentions further, but I really I don't want my apology to turn into a marketing excersise. Did my initial response come across like that? If it did, I didn't mean it to. If you would like to discuss further, then I am all ears. You can contact me privately or on this thread; if people of the mudcat community don't mind too much.

Regards,
Pat


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Domnull
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM

Jack
See what you mean - the ABC link goes nowhere. I've not gone anywhere else but the 'dots' pdf file (and that was quite a while ago now), but it works:
http://www.uptospeed.net/irish/eskin/bstunebook.pdf


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Domnull
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:52 PM

btw - would the be THE Jack C as in that marvellous Tunefinder? - if so, thanks! It's a great tool which I (and many others I reckon) have found very useful.
D


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:56 PM

The Tunefinder guy is John Chambers, not me.

My site is http://www.campin.me.uk .


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: GUEST,domnull
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:48 AM

Jack
Thanks - I got mixed up. In fact, I'd your homepage bookmarked too. I found the 40 Scottish session tunes useful
Cheers
D


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:29 AM

To the Lame Ones here - have you ever taken a stroll through Mudcat and found "at least one tune that has a composer and is still in copyright?"

Get a tune and play and sing and have a life - fun is too short to worry over "copy rights"


Well, how about the "Ashokan Waltz/Ashokan Farewell" by Jay Ungar? I'mm sure JU doesn't mind us all playing it - that's what it's there for - but I'm sure he wouldn't be best pleased if any of us were to publish it and break his copyright. Copyright matters to the person who created the work in the first place - it's often their income.

And it might help us all if you'd care to add some handle to plain GUEST while your at it - just politeness.


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:50 AM

Will's point about the ownership of tunes written is a good one - why not say so guest?


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Subject: RE: Tunebooks online
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:53 AM

Thin skin? Not really - just speaking up for the "Lame Ones"... and those with stuff in copyright.

Have fun with the name too - at least you can see it.


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