Songs of Rebellion.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:24 AM

PS
Some years ago I was asked by our local historical society to give a talk on song and history.
This is part of what I managed to turn up:

In the past political songs often had great influence on political life. In 1704 Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun, a Scots patriot and active opponent of the union of England and Scotland wrote to a friend;

"If a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation".

Probably the most spectacular example of a ballad influencing the course of history is to be found in the song Lillibulero,
The song is said to have first appeared in Ulster in 1641. Richard Talbot, a Catholic and Royalist, had been made Earl of Tyrconnel after the Restoration, and King James II later appointed him Lord Lieutenant of Ireland where he pursued strong pro-Catholic policies. Even after James was deposed in England, Tyrconnel governed Ireland in James' name. The Irish Catholic forces were eventually defeated by William at the Battle of the Boyne.
The song represents two Irish Catholics gloating over Tyrconnell's appointment as Lord Lieutenant and goes;

Ho brother Teague, come hear the decree
Lilli burlero, bullen a la;
Ireland's to have a new deputie,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la.

Ho, by my soul, it is a Talbot;
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
And he will cut every Protestant throat
Lilli burlero, bullen a la

Jonathan Swift, in 1712, named the Whig leader Thomas Wharton as the author, quoting him as claiming to have "whistled a king out of three kingdoms".

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:00 AM

Mark,
I know many of these songs are made to be thrown away after the event - The Obama one rubs me up the wrong way for some reason - lbit like fingernails on glass.
It was the same with her 'Wanna Be an Engineer' song, which was ok at first but, in my opinion, suffered from 'acute over-exposure syndrome'.
She was always being asked for it at The Singers Club (and presumably wherever they toured) - to the extent that she (sort of) apologised for "singing it again". I suppose it's a personal thing.
For the record, my own favourite contemporary songs of rebellion are;
Song od Choice - Peggy Seeger; Bringing Summer Home (Peasants Revolt) Ewan MacColl; Ballad of Accounting Ewan MacColl; The Diggers Song Leon Rosselson; and Naming of Names (not sure who wrote it but Peggy sang it on an album of the same name). MacColl's Ballad of Sharpville is in there somewhere along with a song written at the time of the Irish hunger strikes by Seamus MacMathunna entitles O'Hara, Hughes, McCreesh and Sands.
Thanks again for the list,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: mark gregory
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:47 AM

I lived in the Cambridgeshire Fens through most of the 1950s and learnt a little bit about 'fenland tigers' as the rebels were known. many villages and towns were once islands (eg Isle of Ely) before the draining so today are higher than the died out land as are many of the streams and rivers which have to have raised banks to keep them in! The history of rebellion goes back way before the Dutch engineers ... it was in the fens that Hereward the Wake led a guerrilla band against the Norman invaders, legend has the chain mail wearing Norman soldiers being led a dance through the fenland maze of footpaths and disappearing into the foggy fens

Jim I'm sorry you don't like Peggy's Obama song ... the fate of many topical songs I'm afraid! But sometimes they make great glimpses of history when you get to look back on them!

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:12 PM

"Cursed Cornelius"

well before the American Civil War - in 1620 in the fenlands of South Lincolnshire England there was rebellion against the draining of the land. it went on for nearly 100 years

more details here

fenland rebellions

song here

Cursed Cornelius

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:11 PM

Thanks for that Mark - plenty to think on there. I'll go through the list more thoroughly later
Unfortunately you started on the wrong foot for me - I love Peggy's singing and playing, I seriously hope Obama makes it to the White House and puts a bit of sanity back into the USA - I HATE THAT BLOODY SONG.
Sorry,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:03 AM

"Jim, maybe that's because the English have been more rebelled against than they've been rebellious?"
Plenty of English rebellions and revolts, alright, few as bloody as the Highland ones, but still.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: mark gregory
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:58 AM

I have a growing online collection of rebellious songs, songs of dissent, songs against war, songs against tyranny, union songs, environmental songs, songs for equality and freedom ... hard to know what to sum them up as!

anyway have a look and listen at Union Songs

hope you find something useful ...or maybe you've written something you'd like to add to the collection!

cheers

Mark

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Kampervan
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:46 AM

I agree with you Jim.
My post wasn't meant as a criticism, just floating an idea to as a possible explanation for your thought.

But, as you go on to say, there have been events which one might have expected would generate some good memorable songs!

K/van

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:33 AM

Kampervan:
"Jim, maybe that's because the English have been more rebelled against than they've been rebellious?"
I know you are right about this, but there have been numerous incidents in English history that I believe should have produced songs, for instance, the Nore and Spithead Mutinies. The use of famine refugees as scab labour in the mines and mills was met with strong reaction.
Rebellion was in the air after Trafalgar; at Nelson's funeral, his coffin was spat at by members of his crew. The enclosures produced poaching and transportation songs, but I don't think these can be described as acts of rebellion.
Many of the incidents of history were reported in song, but I really can't think of any which call for opposition like, for instance, the Jacobite repertoire or the numerous Irish uprisings.
Perhaps we let the bastards off too lightly!!
Sorry - just thinking our loud really.
Jim Carroll

Subject: Lyr Add: THE WORLD TURNED UPSIDE DOWN (Rosselson)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:58 AM

"World Turned Upside Down" by Leon Rosselson.

Dick Gaughan does a great version on his Handful of Earth album. As he said: "Sometimes we (Scots and Irish) forget that the first colony of the British Empire was in fact England."


World Turned Upside Down
Leon Rosselson 1975

In sixteen forty nine, to St George's Hill
A ragged band they called The Diggers came to show the people' s will
They defied the landlords; they defied the laws
They were the dispossessed, reclaiming what was theirs

We come in peace, they said, to dig and sow
We come to work the land in common and to make the wasteland grow
This earth divided, we will make whole
So it can be a common treasury for all

The sin of property we do disdain
No one has any right to buy and sell the earth for private gain
By theft and murder, they took the land
Now everywhere the walls rise up at their command

They make the laws to chain us well
The clergy dazzle us with heaven or they damn us into hell
We will not worship the god they serve
The god of greed who feeds the rich while poor men starve

We work, we eat together, we need no swords
We will not bow to masters nor pay rent to the lords
We are free men, though we are poor
You Diggers all stand up for glory, stand up now

From the men of property, the orders came
They sent the hired men and troopers to wipe out the Diggers' claim
Tear down their cottages, destroy their corn
They were dispersed; only the vision lingers on

You poor, take courage; you rich, take care
The earth was made a common treasury for everyone to share
All things in common, all people one
We came in peace; the order came to cut them down

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,Kampervan (without a cookie)
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:01 PM

Jim, maybe that's because the English have been more rebelled against than they've been rebellious?

By and large it's the oppressed who get the best songs (although it may be small compensation at the time of oppression).

K/van

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

Call the 1745 Rising in Scotland a rebellion, and some people will point out that to apply the word rebellion is to assign lawful authority to whoever is being challenged. Rising suggests lawful cause.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

Am I missing something or is there a dearth of TRADITIONAL English songs about rebellion.
There are certainly broadsides on the subject and plenty of songs of complain about working conditions, but I can think of very few advocating open rebellion, certainly not over the last couple of centuries.
You might stretch the definition to include poaching songs - but......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

"Living in the Past" by Jethro Tull.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:45 AM

Revolution, by The Beatles
Love Me, I'm A Liberal, by Phil Ochs

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM

Rebel, Rebel by David Bowie.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM

I'm not looking for a row - honest! I would simply again make the point that, for centuries, there was a common pool of English language songs circulating in what the Romans called The British Isles (long before Britain existed BTW) - at the same time as each of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England had its own pool of local (and somethimes rebellious) songs. To me, "British" is a sensible label to put on that commonality. Forcing a political sense on it, is just that - forcing.

That's all!

Regards

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:14 AM

He/she only actually wrote three sentences, the first of which implies he/she believes in the existence of some kind of "British" music that doesn't come from Wales, Scotland or England. I genuinely don't have the faintest idea what she/he means.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:16 AM

I still don't have the faintest idea what "theleveller" means by this "British" music that doesn't come from any of England, Wales or Scotland. Is it the folk music of Rockall and the North Sea oil rigs?

Just keep reading what he actually wrote!

Regards

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: quokka
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:32 AM

'Rebel Yell' - William Broad (aka Billy Idol) *g*

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Melissa
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:12 AM

I don't have any links on hand, but I've run across some pretty feisty Suffragette era songs online.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:19 AM

The Varshavianka (or Warszawianka, Warshawjanka, or however you want to spell it).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwUHl_P4W3g&feature=related
www.marxists.org/history/ussr/sounds/lyrics/varshavianka.htm

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:46 PM

"Take This Job and Shove It" by Johnny Paycheck.

As ironic a pairing as Country music commonly features.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:38 PM

How about "Rockall" by the Wolfe Tones?

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:26 PM

Nobody likes me
Ev'rybody hates me
I'm going to the garden to eat worms...

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:50 PM

I still don't have the faintest idea what "theleveller" means by this "British" music that doesn't come from any of England, Wales or Scotland. Is it the folk music of Rockall and the North Sea oil rigs?

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM

"What the hell is that supposed to mean?"
Think we've had this discussion before Jack - think you'll find that the Irish (not round here anyway) are not happy as being described as British.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

Just that much of the common pool of English language song in these areas is not rebellious - not surprisingly. Rebellion tended to be local!

Regards

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

: English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh (as opposed to British) folk music

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM

English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh (as opposed to British) folk music is riddled with songs of rebellion. For some great songs of the English Revolution, and especially the part The Levellers played in this, listen to Rev Hammer's 'Freeborn John' CD.

Back to the Peasants' Revolt, there's a very moving version of Sydney Carter's 'John Ball' on Chris Wood's 'Trespasser'.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:22 AM

Even something like "Gypsy Rover" is, in a sense, a song of rebellion.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: quokka
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 09:19 AM

'Mick Ryan's Lament' - by Tim O'Brien - is this the sort of thing you mean? It's in the DT.

Rebellion means such different things to different people in different countries and different political positions.

There are songs about Mandela that could be classed as rebellion songs...Ned Kelly in Australia, in England there were songs protesting against Maggie Thatcher in the 80's - all of these are very different in tone and style.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,Malcolm Douglas (not at home)
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:12 PM

I see there are still people who believe the modern myth started by Bert Lloyd that 'The Cutty Wren' dates to the time of the Peasants' Revolt. It doesn't: see previous discussions for details.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:39 PM

Bringing things a bit more up to date, what songs are there *in favour* of the US's higher-profile political killings in recent decades?

I'd bet there were songs in approval of the assassinations of JFK and Martin Luther King, for a start. Probably some expressing approval of the attempts on Ford and Reagan, too.

BTW, David Koresh (of the Branch Davidians) did a CD of songs. A couple of them are on the web somewhere. They're rather bland, considering.

And from before the Civil War you could add whatever songs the Mormons had.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM

Yankee Doodle
La Marsailles
Taxation of America
Liberty Tree
Stamp Act Repeal
The Old Woman Taught Wisdom
The Liberty Song
The Taxed Tea
Virginia Banishing Tea
Gage's Proclamation
Liberty's Call
American Hearts of Oak
Nathan Hale
Independence
Battle of Trenton
To Britain
Saratoga Song
The Fate of John Burgoyne
Battle of the Kegs
Lord North's Recantation
Volunteer Boys
An Appeal
To the Traitor Arnold
Battle of Kings Mountain
Cornwallis Burgoyned
Johnny Cope
Kilikrankie-O

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

How about this?

Sounds of Resistance

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jayto
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM

Yes Martin but during the Pre American Civil War I am talking about slavery. I know slavery takes all kinds of forms and we could continue this for eons but I am talking about the American Civil War. We alll know at least some of the issues involved in it. I have heard very rascist kkk style pro slavery songs and that is what I do know care to hear. That is what I meant.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM

1381.. is that early pre American Civil War enough ???


http://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Rebel-Songs-1381-1984-Chumbawamba/dp/B00009QI2H/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1225234348&sr=8-2

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: bankley
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:27 PM

Jayto, I'll send you an Mp3 of 'Louis Riel' by Wille Dunn... tho it's set in Canada (Saskatchewan) in the 1880s and the events were more a war of resistance than a rebellion... the lyrics are posted on a thread here about Metis issues... it boogies right along, is historically accurate and thought provoking...

"You can't get away with putting down the government
Beat him, defeat him, throw him in the piss can now".....

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM

If you lads don't put a stop to all this treasonous talk, I shall see to it you are banished..... or transported ...... to my home pub in Grand Rapids, Michigan for a pint..... LOL.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

Jim

He he! Now that's what I call the kettle calling the pot politically incorrect!

Regards

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:51 PM

Stop being rebellious Martin
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

It's easy to forget that "rebellion", like "imperialism", often has a strong racial/racist undertow. There's often an assumption that racially conditioned views are the prerogative of the "opressor"!

Regards

p.s. good luck with the search. I'll be interested to see what's suggested.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jayto
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:38 PM

Well I don't mean to be restrictive about it man. I have caught hell bringing up Civil War subjects before and maybe I was just eing gunshy on that one. I have caught it a few times on here before whenever the south comes into it. I don't want any racially charged songs from the Civil War though other than that I don't care what they contain. I just want songs about rebellion.

Subject: RE: Songs of Rebellion.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 03:32 PM

With the greatest respect - it does seem odd to be so restrictive as to what you regard as "rebellion". Kinda defeats the purpose?

Regards

Subject: Songs of Rebellion.
From: Jayto
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

What are some songs dealing with rebellion. Government, societal, religion, anything as long as it is rebellion. I love rebellious songs and I want to learn and hear more. Does anybody know any songs about rebellion pre American civil war? I think historically they would be interesting to hear. I know the American Civil War can be a touchy subject on here but it is out of historical curiosity the reason I thought about the. I do not have any desire to hear any racially charged songs supportive or even attempted humor. I also don't really want people to take this as a chance to bash the American South. Political is my main interest from that period. I would like to hear any songs about rebellion you can help me with.
Thanks
JT