How Would You Pronounce - Maria?

Subject: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: RTim
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

If you were a southern English singer, ie. from rural Hampshire, collected in 1906 - How would you pronounce the name "Maria".
Would you say "Mar-i-a" - like Fred Jordan did in "Down the Green Groves"?
Or would you say - "Mar-e-a"? Like in West Side Story?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

Well, as a southern English singer, albeit from urban Dorset, I'd say Mar-e-a but I've always said 'Black mar-i-a' and 'Mar-i-a' Martin so I suspect the 1906 pronunciation was 'Mar-I-a.' Bit like 'Ralf' and 'Rafe' for Ralph!

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

To be more specific and phonetic, mah-ree-ah and mah-rye-ah. Over here it depends on whether we are singing about the wind or the girl.:-)

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM

Probably Mar-I-a, possibly verging on Mar-oy=a, but never Mar-ee-a

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:25 PM

MAr-ee-yah is the accepted pronunciation in areas influenced by Spanish or Italian speakers. Anglos favor Mar-eye-yah. Both are in wide circulation.

A

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM

Having seen it written in old church records as Mary and then Maria a year or so later, I'd say Mareea.

I thought the rule was Mareea with an i, Maryah with an h (Maria rather than Mariah)

My grandfather (rural Dorset, born 1905) certainly called his great aunt 'Mareea'... (even though she was really a second cousin once removed).

LTS

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM

My missis pronounces her name "Ma-REE-ya".

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:30 PM

Oh Maria! I've been to a fire!
English Music Hall song
But as with most things personal preference is a factor, and fashion. In 1800- 1900 Britain the 'eye' sound would have been fashionable but as Britain became more cosmopolitan in the 20thc the 'ee' sound seems to have taken over.
Lal (Waterson) and George Knight's daughter is a Maria but has always been pronounced Marry with the stress on first syllable as long as I've known her.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM

Mah-REE-ah.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: BB
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:02 PM

I think Steve's right about Mar-I-a at the period you're enquiring about, i.e. someone collected from in Hampshire in 1906. What the pronunciation is now is irrelevant to the question.

Barbara

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM

Wouldn't it depend on the speaker's religion? A Catholic would surely know the "Ma-ree-a" pronunciation from Church Latin.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 06:31 PM

I've always heard it pronounced "Mah-REE-ah," as in Maria in "West Side Story" or Ave Maria. "Mah-RYE-ah" is what they call the wind way out West--according to the musical, "Paint Your Wagon."

Although I live kinda out West, and I've never actually heard anyone call the wind "Mah-RYE-ah." Maybe I don't travel in the right circles.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM

As for "Paint Your Wagon" and "They Call the Wind Mar(eye)a, both were from the pen of Alan Jay Lerner, an east coaster who may simply have found it sounded right in the song. I would have thought he might have opted to spell it Mariah.

In my neck of the woods, hard by the Mexican border, Mar(ee)a is the only pronunciation known locally.

Now; how many songs can you name with Mar(ee)in them?

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM

Jack - Catholics were relatively rare in rural Hampshire. In 1851 (admittedly 55 years before Dr Gardiner's went collecting) the religious census recorded just 3,082 at morning service out of a population of 405,370. Even the county's largest town, Portsmouth, saw only 931 attend morning service compared with 7,378 Anglicans and around 9,000 non-conformists.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

As near as I remember, They Call the Wind Mah-reye-ah, was long before that movie...at least I seem to remember my sisters singing it.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:28 PM

I would pronounce it softly, lovingly, whisperingly into her shell-like ear.... Maria.

Then take her hand and lead her to a private place.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: GUEST,Maria, pronounced Mareea
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:07 AM

Cluin - I'm ready and waiting, call for me around 7.

M

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: GUEST,giles earle
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:09 AM

Thinking of Latin is not really relevant. Historically - including the early 1900s - Latin was not spoken in the modern Italianate way, but with the local 'vulgar' pronunciation i.e. as if written in the local language. In England, Maria (Latin) would have sounded the same as Maria (English): Mar-EYE-a as above, or even just 'Mary'. I'm not a Roman Catholic myself, so can't swear to this as common practice, but do recall older Irish priests in the 1960s who said 'EY-vee Mary' for Ave Maria.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: pavane
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:21 AM

Aunt Maria was rhyming slang for Fire arount 100 years ago.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:23 AM

You know my Aunt Mar-eye-ah?
She peed on the fire.
The fire was too hot
So she peed in the pot.
The pot was too round
So she peed on the ground,
The ground was too flat
So she peed on the cat
And the cat ran away
With the pee on its back.

Salford, Lancs, probably 1920s or before.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:35 AM

(From my schooldays)
Daisy, Daisy, the coppers are after you.
If they catch you they'll give you a year or two.
They'll tie you up with wire
Behind a Black Maria*
So ring your bell,
And pedal like hell,
On a bicycle made for two.


*Black Maria= a police van

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

As Barbara points out, modern (and foreign) pronounciations are irrelevant to the question. McGrath's and Steve's comments cover it. For general help with the older style of pronounciation in Hampshire, Tim might usefully refer to publications such as Long's A dictionary of the Isle of Wight dialect, and of provincialisms used in the Island; with illustrative anecdotes and tales; to which is appended the Christmas Boy's play, an Isle of Wight "Hooam Harvest", and songs sung by the peasantry; forming a treasury of insular manners and customs of fifty years ago (1886).

As Terry mentions, Catholics do seem to have been pretty thin on the ground in the New Forest labouring classes of those days, and there is no reason to think that George Blake of Lyndhurst (of whom I assume Tim was writing) was one of them. The great majority were at least nominally C of E, though doubtless there was also a Nonconformist tradition. There was an outbreak of Mormonism in the mid 19th century, but it doesn't seem to have lasted long. Many of the converts emigrated to America.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:35 AM

I'd pronounce it the way the person whose name it is does.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:16 PM

"Paint Your Wagon" was a Broadway play long before the movie was made. It debuted on November 12, 1951 at the Shubert Theater and ran for 289 performances. The libretto and lyrics were by Alan Jay Lerner, with music by Frederick Loewe. "I Talk to the Trees" was one of the few songs from the play that became fairly popular during the 1950's. "I Still See Elisa" was probably the only other one that became somewhat known. The play itself was not widely appreciated nor long remembered in its time. When "They Call The Wind Maria" was reintroduced by Bud & Travis, The Kingston Trio and others, it was perceived as a folk song by many, since most had never heard of the play.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

In the olden days, people's pronunciation of a Latinate name like Maria may have been influenced by well-known Latin terms such as

alibi
magi
corpus delecti (or is it delicti?)

in which 'i' is long.

In other words, they felt that 'i' at the end of a Latin word is pronounced 'eye', so they pronounced Ma-rye-a that way.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM

In 50 or so years there'll probably be a discussion by folk song scholars on how to pronounce 'Sarah' - is it Sair-a or Sar-a?

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: RTim
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

Yes - Malcolm Douglas is correct - I am indeed talking about George Blake - b. in the New Forest in 1829, and married to Maria Mills, and also one of their children - second daughter, was also Maria (he was living with her in Bitterne Park when he died in 1916. I am assuming that the song "Maria" was imporant to him because of his wife and daughter - therefore I want to be sure when I record the song I get the name right. Thanks for everyone's interest and input. Tim Radford

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Declan
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

How do you solve a problem like this?

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM

Willing Suspension of Disbelief Department.

In "West Side Story," this kid, Tony, goes running through Spanish Harlem in the middle of the night, singing "Maria! Maria, Maria, Maria . . . " at the top of his lungs.

And only one window opens up!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM

I used to date a girl named Maria, but it was "MAHR-ya". (Talking about the late Pleistocene era here.)

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:11 PM

' "I Still See Elisa" was probably the only other one that became somewhat known'
TJ is that Eleesa, Eleyesa, Eleeza or Eleyeza?

Nice one, Declan!

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: BB
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM

And, "theleveller", how are you going to ask the Maria that "RTim" refers to?

Barbara

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: BB
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

Sorry, thought I'd corrected that! What I tried to correct it to was: And "theleveller", how would you go about asking the Maria that "RTim" refers to? Are we getting into the realms of spiritualism now?

Barbara

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Cluin
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:14 AM

That's how I would pronounce it, M. At 7 or otherwise.

Plus I'd trill the R a bit.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:27 AM

"And "theleveller", how would you go about asking the Maria that "RTim" refers to? Are we getting into the realms of spiritualism now?"

It's a thought, isn't it?

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:33 AM

I have always pronounced it "Juh-BLON-ski." It may not always be the preferred way but its a different take on it and onew you might want to incorporate.

Always trying to help!

Spaw

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

"Well" says Brown, "have you seen a ghost, have you seen your Aunt Maria?"
"Oh my Aunt Maria be blowed" says he. "The bleedin' pubs on fire."

Cosher Bailey's Aunt Maria
She was sitting by the fire
She was knitting contraceptives
Out of india-rubber wire.

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM

Next thing you know, we'll be back to arguing the pronunciation of Marie, as in "Marie's Wedding."

Don Firth brings up an interesting point of curiosity in the number of unopened windows seen in the movie while the stalwart "Tony," played by the rather un-stalwart looking Richard Beymer, whines his way through Spanish Harlem. I have to applaud anyone who was attentive enough to notice that little detail!

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: BB
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM

TJ - I believe it must be Mah-rie, with the accent on the first syllable, otherwise it doesn't scan when you sing the song.

Barbara

Subject: RE: How Would You Pronounce - Maria?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:38 AM

I have one of Jean Redpath's first records. There's a song on it that goes by the title of "Mhairi's Wedding." Pronounced "MY-ree."

Don Firth