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Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria

RTim 31 Oct 08 - 12:02 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM
RTim 31 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Oct 08 - 06:06 PM
Malcolm Douglas 01 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM
RTim 03 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM
Steve Gardham 03 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM
RTim 03 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM
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Subject: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: RTim
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:02 PM

This is really in reply to Big Mick, who said I should write when I found out about the song requested.

Thanks to my old friend Bob Askew - who sent me the King lyrics below, I was able to compare the texts of the two versions of this song. I have yet to get the tunes for comparison.
As I have said in another thread, I am about to record George BlakeÕs version and I wanted to know as much about the song as possible; including how to pronounce ÒMariaÓ - see separate thread.
I have been concerned for a while that this song has been catalogued incorrectly by Steve Roud. It appears as Roud 218 - ie. with Oxford City and all the other Poison in a Glass of Wine songs.
I wrote to Malcolm Douglas about this (having no success with Steve Roud) and he agreed and said it should be catalogued with Roud 1478 - ÒDown the Green GrovesÓ. This was famously sung by both Fred Jordan and May Bradley.
I - of course, agree with Malcolm, and this is where it stands.
Thank for all those interested.

Tim Radford

MARIA AND WILLIAM/ OXFORD CITY Mrs King Lyndhurst 16/7/1908
(Gardiner Mss. H375)

Hark! my dear the cocks are crowing
Daylight now will soon appear;
And in the old, cold grave I am going,
Its all for your sweet sake, my dear.
Chorus: repeat last two lines.

Three long hours she lay a-dying,
And so bitterly did cry;
Crying, Georgie, Georgie, my sweet Georgie,
It's all for your sweet love's sake that I die.

Carry me home my dear cried she
And in each others arms we'll die together
To warn young men of my jealousy.

MARIA. - George Blake, St. Denys, Southampton, formally of Lyndhurst.
Gardiner Mss, No. H314 from Notebook No. 6 page 77 and the text was collected on 6th June 1906 at St. Denys, although it does say in the manuscript that the music was collected later on June 18th 1906.

Although my name it is Maria, this young man he is true I believe
He courted her both late & early, till her heart he hath ruined.
Chorus - Repeat last line

ÔTwas through the groves as we were walking, through the groves close by a stream
To view those little lambs lie sporting and the small birds sweetly sing.

ÔTwas through the groves as we were walking through the groves close by a town
All about love have we been talking he kindly asked her to sit down.

He says - Fair maid may I enjoy you? One to you I will prove true
I hope the heavens may now destroy me, If I ever prove false to you.

Now when he had his will & pleasure this young man he went with a scorn
And never again did she behold him till her little babe was born.

Nine long hours as she lay dying and most bitterly did cry
She cried out my absent Billy for your sake my dear IÕll die.

Oh, hush my babe, the cock is crowing daylight now is drawing near
To my grave IÕm just now going shall I meet my false love there?


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM

Hi Tim,
I will check the index and if the mistake hasn't already been corrected in the current version I will get Steve to alter it. As you would expect with such a massive work as the Roud Index produced by one man there are bound to be many errors such as this. Steve hasn't had time to inspect every version closely which is why researchers like ourselves are looking for them and passing them on to Steve. He is very busy adding to both this and the broadside index and can't break off every time a correction needs altering, but they all eventually get done usually within a month.
The error here is easily understood as 1478 has lines in common with some versions of 218. 218 is quite a common song whereas 1478 has only a handful of known versions and no known broadside as yet has surfaced.
Thanks for posting the 2 versions. I hadn't got both of them. The first is reprinted in the Journals and Reeves' Everlasting Circle of course.


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

Hi Tim,
Have been through the index and pulled out all of the 1478s which are incorrectly placed in 218 and have advised Steve. Unfortunately there are some references, mostly American, where we don't have access to the texts so we won't be able to positively identify all of them, but at least we can alter all the obvious ones. One I wasn't sure of is Fred Jordan's version which I haven't got. It looks like it ought to be 1478 'Through the Groves/Woods'. Can anyone confirm this?

If you or anyone else finds any other glaring errors like this please post them on Mudcat under 'Roud Index Error, followed by number' and I will follow it up, or pm me.


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: RTim
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM

Regarding the Fred Jordan version - I have only heard (online) two verses from the old recording, but is it safe to assume it is the same as May Bradley's version? Didn't they know each other, however Shropshire is not my strong area?

Tim R.

Down The Green Groves - May Bradley (via Fred Hamer)

Now it's down the green groves I was wandering,
Down the green groves by the spring
And there I saw those lambs were playing,
And the birds they whistled and they did sing.

Although my name it is Maria,
Just a poor girl I agree,
The squire he courted me late and early,
Until he had his will of me.

So soon he had his will and pleasure,
Then jealousy grew in his mind,
He caught me dancing with another,
And he gave to me a glass of wine.

Soon she drank it, soon she felt it,
Then to him she made this cry,
Oh Johnny, Oh Johnny, my constant Johnny,
It's all for the sake of you I die.

Nine long hours she lay a-dying,
Daylight now grew in the sky,
Oh Johnny, Oh Johnny, my constant Johnny,
It's all for the sake of you I die.

It's hark, hark, hark, the cocks are crowing,
Daylight now will soon appear,
But it's down in the lonesome grave I'm going,
It's my false lover that brought me here.


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:06 PM

Yes,
I suspect May Bradley's version is a hybrid of the 2 ballads which would have caused the confusion in the first place. Fred could easily have got his version from May Bradley, either directly or via Fred Hamer.
If I get time tomorrow I'll have a closer look at all the versions I have and try to draw some conclusions on hybrid versions.


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

Like May Bradley's version, Fred's includes some strays from 'Oxford City' but is essentially a 'Down the Green Groves' variant; and he gave it that title. He said he'd learned it from Gypsies in his youth. It's broadly similar to the Bradley text, but ordered rather differently. She is unlikely to have been his source.

You may recall, Steve, that we exchanged some emails on the subject of the 218/1478 split at the time Tim contacted me about it; late July 2007 that would be.

The confusion over classification in Roud isn't really a mistake on Steve Roud's part; in this case he merely followed long-established opinion in placing certain examples of 'Maria' with 'Oxford City'. As in many other cases (and to no small degree, thanks to Roud), we now have access to a far wider range of materials than did the collectors of the early C20, and can engage in the kind of taxonomic fine tuning that frequently wasn't possible for them.


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM

Malcolm,
I'm afraid creeping senility doesn't allow me to recall such discussions unless I record them somewhere. The next stage is answering my own queries on Mudcat! Then it's arguing with myself on Mudcat!
I have selected all of the wrongly classified items of 1478 I can identify and sent them to Steve and he assures me they will be corrected before the next edition of the index is available. This includes Fred's version.

A good move would be to turn up a broadside of 1478.


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: RTim
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM

I have found another version of the song - Down the Green Groves, this time from Alfred Williams, and it is in the wonderful new online listing of songs from Wiltshire.
Tim Radford

Around the grove as I was walking
Roud No. 218

Collected From Russell, Jane [Mrs] Tetbury
Collected By Williams, Alfred

Alternative Title Poison in a glass of wine
Source Primary
WSRO: 2598/36 Packet 2 - Gloucestershire: Williams, A: MS collection No Gl 317
Unpublished

Song Lyrics
Verse 1

Around the grove as I was walking,
And in the fields, where all was green,
ÔTwas there I heard two damsels talking,
Which made the small birds whistle and sing.

Verse 2

He said - ÔMy dear, shall I enjoin you?
And for ever IÕll prove true.
I hope a raging will destroy me,
If ever I should prove false to you.Õ

Verse 3

ÔAlthough my name it is Maria,
I am a girl of high degree;
He courted me both late and early,
Until he had his will of me.Õ

Verse 4

Although this fair and lovely creature,
She was invited to a ball,
Her jealous young man soon followed after,
It was to prove her overthrow.

Verse 5

He caught her dancing with another,
When jealousy fulfilled his mind;
And to destroy his own true lover,
This jealous young man he felt inclined.

Verse 6

A dose of poison he provided,
Mixed it with a glass of wine;
He gave it to his own true lover,
She drank it up with a cheerful mind.

Verse 7

And when she had no sooner drunk it,
ÔPray take me home, my dear,Õ said she;
ÔThe glass of liquor you just gave me,
Has made me ill as ill can be.Õ

Verse 8

As they were walking home together,
This wicked young man unto her did say;
ÔI gave you poison all in your liquor,
To take your tender life away.Õ

Verse 9

ÔAnd I have drunk the same, my dearest,
I am as ill, as ill as thee.Õ
All in each otherÕs arms they died,
Young girls be aware of jealousy.


Notes

Note 1

Alfred Williams Ð ÔIt will be noticed that many of the old songs began with the idea of someone overhearing another relating his or her misfortunes and sorrow. It is very na•ve though the scheme is not artistic. Tedious perhaps it may appear now and then; but we must remember the nature of the materials we are dealing with, and not lose sight of the simplicity of those who sang the pieces. Copy obtained of Mrs Russell, Tetbury.Õ

Note 2

Mrs Russell is identified as having lived her early life in Crudwell, Wiltshire in the introduction to ÔOld grey man WSRO: 2598/36 Packet 2 - Gloucestershire: Williams, A: MS collection No Gl 161Õ.

Transcribed and edited by Chris Wildridge, 2007.
--------------
Also to add and finish what I started, below are Fred Jordan's text.
===============================
Down the Green Groves - Fred Jordan (from VTD148CD)

ItÕs down the green groves I was wandering
Down the green groves by the spring
ItÕs there I saw the lambs were playing
And the birds whistle and they do sing.

Although my name it is Maria
Just a poor girl, I agree
ItÕs there I met a rich young squire
And he had his way with me.

ItÕs first he had his will and pleasure
Then he left me far to roam
Never no more to seek his pleasure
With me until my babe was born

He caught me dancing with another
Jealousy then filled his mind
He caught me dancing with his brother
He ordered me to drink some wine

Now itÕs hark, hark, hark, the cocks are crowing
Daylight then will soon be here
ÒOh, Johnny, oh, Johnny, my own true Johnny,
The wine you gave me has made me queer.Ó


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

Ah, now the Williams version really puts the cat among the pigeons. Upto looking at this version I had more or less decided to consider them as 2 quite separate songs. The 'Groves' songs do have a definite identity of their own allowing for some hybrids. In fact all but one version could be considered hybrids. That one version which has none of 'Oxford City' in it is the George Blake version given by you above and rescued by Gardiner in Hants.

At least the above Jane Russell (Gloucs) version throws new light on the problem. What it consists of is the first 3 stanzas of 'Groves' not found in any straight version of 'Oxford' and the other 6 stanzas are a straight almost verbatim 'Oxford' a la the Catnach broadside last 6 stanzas of 11.

Here is one possibilty:-a broadside hack decides to make a few pennies by making a new ballad from an old one. He lops off the first 5 stanzas of Oxford, adds 5 new ones (The first 5 of the George Blake version but in a different order) and uses a couple of floaters to round the whole thing off.

As for classifying, sheesh! This is a hard one!


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: RTim
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

Hi Steve, etc.

It seems to me that the separation is whether Oxford/Worcester City or even Fleet Street is used in the opening instead of Green Groves or fields etc.
To my memory only the name "Maria" is consistent with both types and there is then the question of the use of poison!
As you said to Malcolm - a Broadside needs to be found.
I am glad I am this side of the classifying process - I wish Steve & yourself good luck!

I am recording Blake's version on Friday - so that gives me three days to decide whether to change the order of Blakes verses or not - ie. to reverse the firs two verses?

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Was:Can you do me a favour, Now - Maria
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM

If it's any help, having looked at now 10 versions of 'Groves' I'd be pretty definite in saying that Blake's first verse should be the 4th. Other than that all seems in order and you have a song that has nothing visibly in common with 'Oxford City'. To be precise both of Sharp's versions and the two Gardiner versions also have no 'Oxford City' stanzas. To put it another way the hybrid versions are Williams' fullish version, the 2 Shropshires, a Scottish and a Dorset version.
Baring Gould had some versions from Cornwall which he mentions and uses fragments from in 'Garland of Country Songs' p62. He uses bits and pieces of it in his own composition, 'The Virgin's Wreath'.


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