Preference or Snobbish?

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Technique--vocal and/or instrumental--is a great thing, if you don't let it get in the way of the music.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:28 AM

He doesn't realy come into it - I was just pointing out the Scots spellings can become French ones. Sorry if I gave any other impression.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

Richard
Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM

Captain, how do you square that with insisting that those who are not good enough should not be allowed?

What about songs that are meant to be miserable? How then should the singer sound as if he was enjoying himself?.
I have never insisted anything of the sort,I gave an opinion about the use of crib sheets in folk clubs,[please give the relevant quote] now will you f### off.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

Not so pedantic point - Where does Bonnie Prince Charlie come into it? The poem is about Flodden Field, which was in 1513, more than two hundred years before he came on the scene.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM

Wrinkles. You are also forgetting the 'auld alliance' of Scotland and France. Fleur, as I am sure you are aware, is the French spelling of Flower. The scots name 'Stewart' originates from the 'Steward' of the castle. Yet Bonny Prince Charlie was a French Charles Edward Stuart. I am not saying that is where the confusion lies or that you are completely wrong. But it is the first and only time I have ever heard of the floors of the forest in either song or the English (or Scottish!) language.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM

Captain, how do you square that with insisting that those who are not good enough should not be allowed?

What about songs that are meant to be miserable? How then should the singer sound as if he was enjoying himself?

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:19 AM

Thanks Dick I would put in the link if I knew how to do it.
Strange how firstly I get handed Peter's concertina to have a go on,start playing a tune I have not heard or played in twenty years,which was recorded when he came back with the coffees
Tunes that you spend hours and hours practising never get a mention.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:48 AM

the most important thing as far as I am concerned, is that the musician/ singer sounds as if he is enjoying what he /she is doing,that is more important [IMO ]than technical virtuosity.
when I put together my concertina compilation Boxing Clever,which features Tim Laycock,John Kirkpatrick and Harry Scurfield,that was my primary consideration,of course it doesnt follow that one cant have both at the same time,and I think Boxing Clever is a good example of virtuoso playing and musicality .
if there are any radio programmers out there that would like acopy of Boxing Clever,please contact me at
http://www.dickmiles.com.
AlanDay,to digress slightly I enjoyed very much your version and Peter Trimmings.Monks March on you tubeperhaps you would put a link in.
an example of the same tune played well on the same concertina but given a different treatment.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:11 AM

For those of you living in Australia, we have had a great letter from Bruce Cameron who runs "Come all Ye" Radio 2 MCE NSW and he is going to feature a number of tracks from English International on his programme.
This follows up a similar play on New Zealand Radio a few weeks ago and the only person I know in New Zealand was out when it was on.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:03 AM

In the course of putting these compilations together I listen to hours of playing and as has already been said "Singing with Accompaniment".
I firstly listen to the singing voice and then the accompaniment and if both are OK then I put the recordings forward for selection in the final line up.I must admit I never listen to the pronunciation and here is the difficulty.Being raised in London I like many others find Dick Van Dyke's attempt at the Cockney accent laughable.A fine example of brilliant singing and accompaniment, but is spoilt by the pronunciation.I would never pick up upon an artist from America for example badly pronouncing an Irish song,although once again it had all the requisites that would make me include it.So here would be a classic example of the Irish disliking a recording for this reason.In America however they would love it.You have broadened my thinking, but I am not sure I could ever implement it.Unless the song is Cockney or from Sussex.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: GUEST,Trevek
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:29 AM

Dick makes a good point about "the preoccupation of where a singer comes from".

I'd suggest that it is not a persons ethnicity or nationality which matters as much as their cultural influences. Example would be something like the reggae band UB40. Some might say that white boys singing reggae is somewhat plastic, but if these lads have grown up in close contact with the West-Indian population of Birmingham then surely this would be a cultural exposure which influences their musical education and choices.

Likewise, if someone has grown up around, or lived among immigrants from, example, Ireland, East Europe etc and has been in contact with the music (and culture)then I'd suggest the music and songs are as much a part of that person regardless of whether it is 'theirs' through ethnicity/nationality.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:43 AM

I don't know where you get this stuff, Wrinkles.

with a few exceptions, english speakers of most British isles dialects (including standard English) "floor" means "ground".

Never in my experience. Rooms have a floor, streets and parks just have the ground. People will use phrases like "on the floor"/"off the floor" to refer to falling to the ground or picking something up off the ground, but that doesn't mean they're thinking of the ground as a floor.

The wide variety of ground cover in a forest means it's ground is always refered to in the plural (ie Floors)

Well, there is an exception to the "floor: indoors" rule, which is that the forest has a floor, singular - "the forest floor" denotes the ground around and beneath the trees in a forest. But it's "the forest floor" (not "the floor of the forest") and it's never pluralised.

Besides which, as McGrath points out, the original poem is about the aftermath of a lost war. All the young men have been sent to fight & die: the flowers of the forest have all withered away. Pete Seeger later expressed similar sentiments, I believe.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: meself
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:47 AM

(That "guest" was me).

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:31 AM

But your insistence on a supposed "correct" pronunciation has led you to a misunderstanding of the phrase. In other words, your attempt NOT to "de-accent" or "translate" has resulted "in inaccurate meaning being foisted on the original lyrics" ...

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Wrinkles
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:33 PM

The point isn't the spelling or the pronunciation, it's the meaning.

I agree wholeheartedly.

My point, which seems to have got lost, is that when a song contains a dialect word one should repeat it exactly as it was originally said; any attempt to "de-accent" or "translate", unless one is fluent in that dialect, almost always results in inaccurate meaning being foisted on the original lyrics.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FLOWERS OF THE FOREST
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM

The point isn't the spelling or the pronunciation, it's the meaning.

I've heard them liltin', at the ewe milkin,'
Lasses a-liltin' before dawn of day.
Now there's a moanin', on ilka green loanin'.
The flowers of the forest are a' wede away.

As boughts in the mornin', nae blithe lads are scornin',
Lasses are lonely and dowie and wae.
Nae daffin', nae gabbin', but sighin' and sobbin',
Ilk ane lifts her leglin, and hies her away.

At e'en in the gloamin', nae swankies are roamin',
'Mang stacks wi' the lasses at bogle to play.
But ilk maid sits drearie, lamentin' her dearie,
The flowers of the forest are a' wede away.

In har'st at the shearin' nae youths now are jeerin'
Bandsters are runkled, and lyart, or grey.
At fair or at preachin', nae wooin', nae fleecin',
The flowers of the forest are a' wede away.

Dool for the order sent our lads to the Border,
the English for ance by guile wan the day.
The flowers of the forest, that fought aye the foremost,
The prime of our land lie cauld in the clay.

We'll hae nae mair liltin', at the ewe milkin',
Women and bairns are dowie and wae.
Sighin' and moanin' on ilka green loanin',
The flowers of the forest are all wede away

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Wrinkles
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:07 PM

And translating "flowers" (or "floo'ers") as the English word "floors" would make no kind of sense in Jean Elliott's poem. ("There's a great big hole in the forest floor...")

Well I know nothing about a poem, honestly, only a Scots regiments piper's lament.

"Floor" makes sense because, with a few exceptions, english speakers of most British isles dialects (including standard English) "floor" means "ground". When I moved over here [England] I was caught out more than once being told something was on the "floor" which totally baffled me because we were outdoors! As far as I was concerned outside was "ground" and "floors" were exclusivly indoors ;-) The wide variety of ground cover in a forest means it's ground is always refered to in the plural (ie Floors) except when speaking of a single specific place in a forest in which case the singular is permissable.

The Concise Scots Dictionary [ISBN 0-08-028492-2](Aberdeen University press) confirms that "fluer" (with many variant spellings) which have only one vowel or glide/diphthong sound translates as floor whereas "Flooer" (also with many variant spellings) with two distinct vowel sounds translates as flower. In other words when there is only one vowel between the initial and the final consonants (ie FL+VOWEL+R) it's floor, and when there's another vowel between them (ie FL+VOWEL+VOWEL+R)it's Flower. FL-U-R = floor and FL-U-ER = flower. Easy.

I admit it's confusing to the uninitiated because the first vowel sound on both is very close to the "oo" of "cool", and people who's own accent is non-rhotic will meantally insert an extra vowel after it with an R quality, which when heard by a Rhotic speaker the correct R is inserted but the additional vowel is kept because it is assumed the non-rhotic speaker just dropped the R, whereas they actually replaced it. Believe me, when phonemes cross both accent and dialect boundries it's via a minefield.

By the by, the same distiction is made in Ulster-Scots, a very close relative of Lalans, in which I'm fluent (and you can confirm it in the Oxford Concise Ulster Dictionary [ISBN 0-19-860059-3](Oxford University Press). Although like the General American I grew up with Ulster-Scots has the ground/floor difference. Go Figure.

The Piper's tune, a military lament usually played at a funeral or graveside (which makes sense in the Eric Bogle example) has only a single vowel sound. People who add a vowel to make it "floo-ers" are mispronouncing it and changing the meaning too.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

And translating "flowers" (or "floo'ers") as the English word "floors" would make no kind of sense in Jean Elliott's poem. ("There's a great big hole in the forest floor...")

I'm reminded of the misunderstanding in which "I've been walking all day" in Eric Bogle's No Man's Land occasionally gets understood as "I've been working all day" because the two words sound similar in some accents.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 01:44 PM

"Flowers of the Forest" might have originally been a pipe tune, but if it was it wasn't for the Highland pipes, but some kind of Border or Lowland pipe. The Skene MS tune and its 18th century derivatives that fit Jean Elliot's text are unplayable on the Highland pipe. A rather mutilated variant is played on them today, but it's not the real thing by a long shot.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:54 AM

This preoccupation with where a particular musician comes from might make sense if recordings, radio and TV didn't exist. Nowadays, regional styles exist largely as a matter of choice, not geographical necessity.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM

>there's a Scots tune called "Fluers of the Forest" the title of which is cited in an Eric Bogle song. Singers who do not realise the quoted title is dialect, rather than Eric's accent, mis-sing it as "flowers of the forest" whereas the translation from Lalans to English is actually "floors of the forest".

Wrinkles, I can't let that pass- the Scots pipe tune IS The Flowers of the Forest. See link Flowers of the Forest for more information.

Alan, sorry that some people took your thread the wrong way :0(

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:41 AM

Jim,Opera seems to be the area where a number of people have different tastes and just by a few of the postings we have here the differences in opinion have been really interesting to read.
Lesley Garratt a lovely lady I met and talked to on the train,without knowing who she was (it was before she was famous).I love her singing Opera, but not sure about her singing other music.A few more hours with her might make all the difference.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:29 AM

You were not Will,but thanks for the concern.
Listening to Jody Kruskal mimicking the American Fiddle music style on Anglo Concertina would also possibly change a few views on that subject.
That works!
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:33 AM

Al - no intention on my part to be rude, and I hope I wasn't. 'Twas merely that the "hidden agenda" bit rankled slightly. But that's past and done with, I hope, and now to your original question...

The second answer to your original post - from Dick Greenhaus - was "Whatever works". I would agree with that and also say that what always interests me is when a particular genre of music is played in a different way and in a style or an instrument from another genre. Sometimes these things work, and sometimes they don't. For example, I remember to this day the frisson of excitement I got from hearing Davy Graham's backing to Shirley Collins's singing of "Pretty Saro" and "Nottamun Town" on the "Folk Roots, New Routes" album. So - on with the crossover, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think any tradition is in danger of being forgotten or swamped by being twisted around a little.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:21 AM

Jack ,sorry I did not mention that the collections do include singing.
JK,The Threlfall Sisters with Roger Edwards,Harry Scurfield,Bob Davenport with Roger Digby on Anglo.
Damien Barber,Lea Nicholson,Rainer Sussmilch, and Sarah Graves on English.
The collections cover most types of music from Classical,Jazz,Ragtime and tunes from the thirties to sixties plus of course Folk.
Thanks for your interest and suggestions
I find peoples likes and dislikes in music interesting and that is why I posted my questions ,some tongue in cheek which I thought may be amusing ,but how wrong I was.Possibly it could and was interpreted in a different way to what I intended,but the rudeness was unnecessary.
Al

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Wrinkles
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:10 AM

I agree with the many who've said "whatever works".

However I'd never agree that songs "belong to" and should only be sung by people of the same ethnic background as the song. It is cross-cultural pollination which has given history its most memorable and greatest movements! Therefore to be opposed to such things is in my view very foolish.

Take the visual arts for example; it was the Saxons who introduced to the British isles the basic north european "ribbon work" which today is commonly missidentified as a "celtic" or Irish art-form because these days it is the manuscript illumination of the monks of the Celtic Church which we regard as the highest and greatest development of that art.

If we were limited to ascribing forms only to their originators, or their decendents, then this "Celtic" artform would suddenly become English! I can see no good reason why anyone shold be prohibited from singing an Irish song on the grounds of their being not-Irish!   

But what never works is a singer who has confused accent with dialect and tried to sing a dialect song in their own accent - which results in many dialect words being "mistranslated".

As an example (and of sight-spelling too) there's a Scots tune called "Fluers of the Forest" the title of which is cited in an Eric Bogle song. Singers who do not realise the quoted title is dialect, rather than Eric's accent, mis-sing it as "flowers of the forest" whereas the translation from Lalans to English is actually "floors of the forest".

So while I don't care if someone sings in their own accent rather than the accent of song's origin (heck, I'm a Planxty/Andy Irvine fan and he sings everything from everywhere in his own accent, to the extent that many folk think many American and English are actually Irish!), it does get under my skin when dialect words are not either left alone or mistranslated by the assumption they are mere variation in accent.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:12 AM

Alan: it looks like you've got your project so far advanced and planned out that you don't actually need any feedback from us (and particularly not suggestions that the whole thing is worthless trash compared with issuing an album of Beatles covers). Why not just ignore us all, tell us when it's done, and bask in the applause?

But I would strongly suggest that you include some tracks with singing if you can find them (A.L. Lloyd is the only one I know about, there must be much more). That would greatly extend the appeal of the set beyond the world of free-reed players.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:38 AM

I agree that the original posting could have been phrased more clearly, but once I had read it a couple of times I was in no doubt what Alan was trying to say. I agree that some people seem to be looking for a fight.

Al, don't give up posting but do take the time to phrase your post carefully and clearly

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:23 AM

No Pip the mistake I made was posting here in the first place.
McGrath of Harlow states the real facts, that some on this site are looking for a fight.They can only write with aggression,they are incapable of writing witty and interesting articles and joining in a discussion in a friendly manner..
A young girl wrote to Mudcat recently to "Just Say Hallo" she was jumped on from a great height.This young lady writes on another site,she is a bit of a butterfly but comes up with interesting topics for discussion.I can tell you she will never write on this site again.It is probably the same small bunch of people that move from one subject to another just to pick up on a small point with the express purpose of hammering the writer.

I leave you with a little saying

There are some that do and some that don't
The some that do, are often criticised by those that don't
but the ones that do sometimes achieve
The ones that don't ,don't

I will continue to reply to anyone who is looking for information,just as other have helped me.I have a lot of friends on this site ,it is a shame that a few of the minority spoil it for others.
AL

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: jimslass
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:05 AM

I listened to the Andreas Scholl Raggle Taggle Gypsies with my jaw clenched. It was awful, and because of his singing style it sounded false and affected. However this is just my opinion and not a comment on the QUALITY of the piece. Some folks will love it. Fine.

No objections to opera singers singing folk songs as long as they don't do it in an operatic manner, which is a style which is learned and utilised for a specific kind of music. Nothing snobbish about it. Some opera I love. Most leider music I detest.

I do enjoy hearing songs sung with a genuine accent, but don't think not being 'native' should preclude anyone from singing a certain song. As many people have said - it depends how it's sung.

It would appear that people enjoy a bit of dissent on Mudcat - but there are folks out there who seem to go looking for the slightest thing to try and turn into a spectacular row - get a life!

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:29 PM

And look how often on Mudcat, we hear someone bleating on because they have sat through an evening of beatles songs at a folk club.

Can't say I've ever come across that particular complaint here. Which means "How often" = "never".

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM

Perhaps its not snobbish.

We're all just old and intolerant.

Call me a twat, but I get fed up with appreciating things. I prefer it, if I can just enjoy them.

I can see that all the things I hate about the folk revival have their value. But equally I can see that not many other people like them either.

I'm sure all these other folk aren't wrong. But the folk revival has travelled long way from a lot peoples doors.They will get their grants, and festivals and never sell many records, because people do not love them in the way that say they love a Beatles song. And look how often on Mudcat, we hear someone bleating on because they have sat through an evening of beatles songs at a folk club.

The middle clsses have all the power in this land. And maybe that's how it should be. the more aware, the more educated setting the standard for us all to jump up to.

But its not the origin of this music. And its not where the genius resides.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:15 PM

For what it's worth, the CDs sound like a fantastic project and a highly valuable resource. But I really, seriously, think that Alan made several mistakes in the way he posed his original questions, starting with the thread title.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM

I'm with you McGrath. I have been very disappointed in some of the unkind, and in my view unjustified criticism of Alan. it does appear to me that some contributers are going out of their way to be acrimonious. Alan's first posting prompted a dilema I have with regard to singing particular songs in particular company. I find myself dicouraged from posting it for discussion for fear I might be similarly targeted.

Rog

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:12 PM

Thanks Rowan.
Jack as promised here is a quick description of what I am up to.I did not post all the details in my introduction, or point out the full details of why I was asking the questions,what goes on between me and the artists is strictly confidential.Some recordings were deleted for various reasons,I would also not divulge any comments that come my way.The major criticism I receive is the artists I leave out of the collection,some of whom I do not know exist or in an attempt to balance out UK artists to World wide artists.
About twenty five or thirty years ago I had a copy of John Kirkpatrick's "Jump at the Sun" record and marvelled at him playing "Gigue",at the same time I was playing Concertina next to Will Duke who had a completely different style to me.On my trip to Sidmouth that year I heard Jackie Daly playing unbelievable Irish music on my concertina (after two weeks practice).The following day at the Ship Sidmouth I spoke to JK about doing a record of the versatility of the Anglo,showing all the different styles of playing.Ten Years later he chased me up about it and so did Graham Bradshaw Roots Records.I started inviting artists from all over the World.It did not include Chemitzers or Bandonions Jack as although in America they are called Concertina's they are not Anglos.
The collection includes a number of Archive tracks of players that were donated .Some very rare and featuring artists like Scan Tester,Fred Kilroy,Andrew Blakeny Edwards,Zulu Squash Box recordings.Some of the line up includes Noel Hill,Mary and Kate McNamara,Chris Shurburn and his Band,Jody Kruskal and His Contra Dance Band and of course JK playing a new version of "Gigue" and other tunes.It has been a great success getting plays on Radio Stations all over the World and rave reviews.
On completion we were asked by a number of musicians playing other concertina systems to do a follow up of English and Duet.English has just been released and we are getting identical response and reviews.
As we received some very important and rare archives it has enabled us to do a History of the English Concertina by using Archives and current recordings from 1850 to the current day (also a 3 CD collection www.englishconcertina.org).This includes two of the Concertina Bands recorded in 1935, Ashton under Lyne and The Heywood (Manchester).For me fantastic.
We were so exited by the Big Bands that we are investigating a possible Concertina Band CD to finish this International Series.
There could be others to follow on other instruments ,whether I will be involved, or not, I am not sure.There is an English International Collection currently in the Auction at half the list price.
I hope this goes some way to letting you know my activities.I am currently working on Duet International and we expect to release it about November next year.
Al.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM

Some people really do seem raring for a fight.

Alan's questions all seemed perfectly sensible, if possibly tongue in cheek. Discussions and disagreements really don't need to be treated as if they had to involve quarrels.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:42 PM

I will see this nightmare to the bitter end, but I shall not post any subjects for discussion again.

Alan, your project(s) being the "nightmare" ... all power to your elbow. I've heard about your concertina CDs (mostly via threads on Mudcat) and, although I've not yet bought them or heard them, all the reviews I've seen have been full of praise and you should be congratulated mightily. When I get some spare readies I'll buy them, even though I've probably heard most of the players already; us concertina players tend to be more biassed towards an interest in such things than other instrumentalists, I suspect.

I'm curious about the nature (origins and intent) of the derogatory remarks you've received and, given my experiences of folk scene politics, can understand why you might not have wished to flag any particulars in your opening post. As you can see, even the calmest of us can sometimes forget that screen text doesn't communicate the moderations of intonation and body language we rely on in face-to-face conversations.

And I hope you continue to initiate posts.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM

What school, Will? Ah'm a Thornleigh lad missen, '62-'69 tha knows!

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

I were born in Chorley, lived in Horwich and went to school in Bolton

That must have been a bit of a shock (for Bolton). There aren't many accents that can make Chorley sound a bit posh and townie, but Horwich does it.

Incidentally, Simon - Jim Moray does a version of er... not Mattie Groves, the other one... you know the one, long song, lots of verses, it'll come to me in a minute with a rap in the middle. Didn't really do it for me, I have to say, but I'm probably getting conservative in my old age.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:05 PM

Do you honestly think,when I have six CDs out there with another three to follow that I would suggest that if any of you do not like the tracks included,(about a third), being sung or played by artists that do not live in the country of the music that they are playing.that you are a bunch of snobs for not liking it.

I don't know your work. What I honestly think is that your original post looked like an attempt to start a fight. I accept that it wasn't, but perhaps you should take on board some of my comments about why what you wrote was misread so badly (and not just by me).

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:04 PM

Steve Shaw

Absolutely, Will.   I love her to bits in all genres. Could be that she was a Rochdale lass and I'm a Radcliffe lad I suppose. ;-)

Rochdale? Radcliffe? Gerraway! I were born in Chorley, lived in Horwich and went to school in Bolton - them's proper places, them is! ;D

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Simon G
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:15 AM

How about Matty Groves performed by a rap artiste?

I'd love to hear something like that. As George Papavgeris said earlier in this thread both the composition and the performance are creative acts. Both are creative acts within a set of rules, a musical vocabulary and grammar. The problem of enjoying is often that one lacks enough understanding of one of genres rules. I certainly do for opera for example.

35 years ago I remember failing to understand my parent's claim that rock music was just noise. It was (and still is) noise to them because they have no notion of the musical language that is being used.

If you understand both the composers musical language and the performers as well then a mixtures of genres can be an inspired choice and a wonderful performance, but those that don't will be left out in the cold.

It is also important to tell the audience what language you are using, putting on a accent can be one way of doing this. Don't denigrate people who put on a accent, often they are doing so subconciously because they have discovered they need to give the audience a clue that they are using a particular musical language.

Of course taking another style and using your own accent and tone makes is your own - a gallic style + yorkshire accent = Jake Thackray

Looking forwardto the rap version on Maty Groves.

Simon

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM

Pip ,I am horrified and amazed that you have interpreted my question
"Is it music preference or just snobbery if a performance is well sung and well played that it is not like for other reasons? Would you like an Irish tune by someone who is not Irish?
Gurney's pal does not like anyone other than Irish singers singing Irish songs.Why ? The accent,the feel of the song or just that he does not like other musicians singing his Countries songs ?
Do you honestly think,when I have six CDs out there with another three to follow that I would suggest that if any of you do not like the tracks included,(about a third), being sung or played by artists that do not live in the country of the music that they are playing.that you are a bunch of snobs for not liking it.Just add TOTAL MADNESS to the other names levelled against me.I have invited these players onto the collection,mostly their music has been acclaimed, but there has been a few derogatory remarks.Hence the reason for this posting.It is out of interest of what peoples views are about the music they listen to,that I posted here.
I will see this nightmare to the bitter end, but I shall not post any subjects for discussion again.
Al
Jack I will answer your posting in more depth later.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM

Absolutely, Will.   I love her to bits in all genres. Could be that she was a Rochdale lass and I'm a Radcliffe lad I suppose. ;-)

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: GUEST,Trevek
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

"Would you not like an Irish tune played by someone who is not Irish ?"

If its done well, yes. In Poland there are several groups playing Celtic music and doing it extremely well. If I didn't know they were Polish I wouldn't know any better. However, it might be different if they are singing. One group plays celtic music and the singer has very poor spoken English (pronuciation, diction etc) and when he sings a song it is unintelligble a lot of the time. He should stick to his instruments.

"Would you enjoy an Irish Song if sung by an American with an American accent or even just a couple of words that has wrong pronunciation?"

Not a problem, as it is arguably part of the historic process of migration and diaspora. A couple of hundred years ago the original singer may have pronounced things differently too.

"Do you enjoy American Country Music sung with a false accent ?"

Depends how false. The British Rockabilly band Matchbox used to do some songs about Dixie and the accent was laughable. There better stuff was when they didn't.

"Should American Fiddle music only be played on a fiddle?"

No.

"Do you enjoy a Opera singer singing Folk Music?"

No, for similar reasons mentioned by others.

"Should a Copper Song be only enjoyed if sung with a Sussex accent?"

I'll hazard a 'no' here but I've never heard one to judge against.

"Should music of other countries only be performed or recorded by musicians from those countries?"

Depends. Some songs are openly played and shared across cultural and geographic borders. However, the player should understand the context of the song and whether it is appropriate to sing/play it. If a book of Yiddish songs is available in a shop then me playinmg the tunes shouldn't be a problem. However, getting a CD of sacred ritual tunes and playing them in a drunken session would be highly inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

Just a quick comment on Kathleen Ferrier, from my perspective, for Steve Shaw: Steve - I love KF singing the Ruckert Lieder (for example) and her performance of that never fails to move me. But, unfortunately, the folks songs don't appeal - just not my cup of tea. It's possible to like some of the output of an artist(e) but not other bits.

Regards,

Will

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:04 AM

: I am involved with a project involving International recordings.I will explain it further
: I have been collecting Archive and current recordings of concertina players to show the
: versatility of each concertina system.Anglo and English so far.

Sounds like a great project. Now start over and throw away all your original questions, none of them have anything to do with that. Maybe start a new and explicitly named thread without all this bullshit.

You need to organize it so as to bring out the differences between the different systems. Get a performance of an Irish reel on an old brass-reed Anglo and put it beside a similar tune on a Wheatstone English. Put different tuning systems side by side playing similar music so you can hear how it affects things. Get a bunch of people playing the same type of box on a wide variety of different styles so you can hear the range of things you can do with each. Look at variations in technique, like Simon Thoumire's unusual grip or the way tango players mostly play on the draw, and see if you can hear that in the result.

I guess you're going to include chemnitzers and bandoneons too? People using the concertina to accompany singing? Bass concertinas used in mixed groups?

But I really can't see why you asked ANY of your original questions. They just don't matter to what you're doing.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:29 AM

I have now been accused of Blackmail added to writing racist remarks,stupidity etc just for putting a topic for discussion.

You got off on the wrong foot with the original question - it's no wonder people react badly if they feel they're being asked "are you a snob?" Then you bundled together a lot of different questions, some serious, some daft ("Should a Copper Song be only enjoyed if sung with a Sussex accent?"), with the implication that anyone saying Yes to one ought to say Yes to all - and the strong suggestion that anyone who did say Yes was a snob. Then you told us you had a hidden agenda, which isn't exactly likely to win you friends.

As Jack said, the context of the question (your 'hidden agenda') makes a huge difference to how people answer. If I discovered tomorrow that Jon Spiers was an Icelandic immigrant who'd grown up in a gypsy encampment in Bavaria and taught himself bandoneon from an old Astor Piazzolla record, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to whether I like his music - but it would make a huge difference to whether I considered him a typical English player. So the answer to "Should music of other countries only be performed or recorded by musicians from those countries?" is a great big It Depends - and the main thing it depends on is whether you've got any other agenda apart from enjoying the music.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:26 AM

Ah well, back to the lagerphone I s'pose.

Subject: RE: Preference or Snobbish?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:57 AM

Nice to hear from you again Rowan.
I can understand your frustrations.Australians playing something other than didgeridu's surely not.
Al