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Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights

Big Elk 05 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM
Sooz 05 Nov 08 - 10:03 AM
Vic Smith 05 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,WorldlyWise 05 Nov 08 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,No Fixed Abode 05 Nov 08 - 10:38 AM
SunrayFC 05 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM
Big Elk 05 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM
theleveller 05 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM
Acorn4 05 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM
Dave Sutherland 05 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM
wysiwyg 05 Nov 08 - 11:30 AM
The Villan 05 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM
Banjiman 05 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM
SunrayFC 05 Nov 08 - 01:33 PM
Leadfingers 05 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 05 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM
Terry McDonald 05 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM
Tim Leaning 05 Nov 08 - 03:03 PM
GUEST 05 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM
The Villan 05 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM
Girl Friday 05 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM
Bernard 05 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM
Anne Lister 05 Nov 08 - 05:16 PM
Bernard 05 Nov 08 - 05:28 PM
The Sandman 05 Nov 08 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 05 Nov 08 - 07:26 PM
Bernard 05 Nov 08 - 07:39 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Nov 08 - 08:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Nov 08 - 08:25 PM
Bernard 05 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM
Sorcha 05 Nov 08 - 09:01 PM
Melissa 05 Nov 08 - 09:05 PM
M.Ted 05 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM
Surreysinger 05 Nov 08 - 09:41 PM
Gervase 06 Nov 08 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,Suffolk Miracle 06 Nov 08 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 06 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 04:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 05:03 AM
The Villan 06 Nov 08 - 05:05 AM
Surreysinger 06 Nov 08 - 06:19 AM
Bernard 06 Nov 08 - 06:48 AM
squeezebox-kc 06 Nov 08 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 06 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM
Big Elk 06 Nov 08 - 07:40 AM
The Villan 06 Nov 08 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 06 Nov 08 - 07:47 AM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM
Folk Form # 1 06 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Suffolk Miracle 06 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM
Joe G 06 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 08:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM
SunrayFC 06 Nov 08 - 09:17 AM
The Villan 06 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM
Girl Friday 06 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Father Knew Wild Willy Barrett 06 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM
matt milton 06 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM
matt milton 06 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,John from Elsies` Band 06 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM
Leadfingers 06 Nov 08 - 11:54 AM
Big Elk 06 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM
Dave Sutherland 06 Nov 08 - 12:43 PM
MC Fat 06 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM
BB 06 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM
Betsy 06 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM
Aeola 06 Nov 08 - 07:11 PM
Harmonium Hero 06 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM
jiva 07 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM
The Villan 07 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM
Will Fly 07 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM
Acorn4 07 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM
Sandra in Sydney 07 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM
Big Elk 08 Nov 08 - 04:50 AM
Leadfingers 08 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM
Bernard 08 Nov 08 - 08:51 AM
Girl Friday 08 Nov 08 - 12:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 08 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM
GUEST 08 Nov 08 - 04:20 PM
Harmonium Hero 09 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM
Big Elk 10 Nov 08 - 12:37 PM
SPB-Cooperator 10 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Nov 08 - 04:58 AM
Marje 11 Nov 08 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Suffolk Miracle 11 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM
Will Fly 11 Nov 08 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Faye 11 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 11 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM
Dulci 26 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM
Girl Friday 28 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM
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Subject: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM

I am a committee member and bookings officer of a folk club and some time MC.

On Monday we had the delight to hear Clive Gregson.

Regrettably I had the situation where 2 people had traveled over 2 1/2 hours each to support our booked guest.

These visitors had asked for floor spots only. Having investigated fully I find that both visitors had issued gig notices on their My Space blogg spots, one traveling from Bournemouth to Chesham and one from Stoke on Trent. The club has a policy of no support acts.

No doubt these visitors' blogg spots will soon include the clubs name as a past booking.

This situation left me with an embarrassing situation, the person who had requested a spot first finished the second half the last booked in finished the second half.

I turned away local singers who support the club = pissed of regulars

I badly upset of one of the visitors, who by my own admission I was rude to, but I tend to respond as I am treated.

Is this a new trend or have other people had the same experience.

I am in sales and I don't mind a pitch, but working on the Cuckoo Principle is for me a step to far. What is even more exasperating is that as a club we regularly book emerging artistes to do a feature night and we have established artistes who got their first gigs on the folk circuit with us this way.

Please play the game. If you want a gig contact folk club organisers, send a CD (not everyone has the internet), come on a singers night, people will afford a decent spot if you can show you have made an effort, but please do not create bogus support gigs.

Do it the right way and "if you are any good" you will get a real gig.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Sooz
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:03 AM

I quite agree. We have two pre-arranged floor spots on a guest night so everyone knows what is happening. When anyone I haven't heard of gets in touch for a booking I suggest they turn up on a singers night when they will get a fair hearing. After that, it depends if our regulars like them (or not).


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

I had a similar experience last year when we booked Dave Swarbrick. Understandably, the evening was a sellout and there were a number of people there with instruments who obviously had it in mind to play if there was a spot, but I announced early on that on this occasion, unusually, I had arranged floor spots in advance as I wanted to present the highest standard that I could and on this occasion there would be no newcomers to the club.
The next day I received a MySpace request for friendship to the club's MySpace from a duo and when I looked at their site, I saw that they had advertised that fact that they were appearing at the Royal Oak in Lewes on the night that we had booked Swarb! They were not even claiming that they were playing a support spot.
I emailed them to asked about the honesty of this claim and they replied saying that they had turned up prepared to do a floor spot so they thought this was OK.
However they had not:-
* contacted me in advance saying that they wanted to play
* approached me on the evening for a floor spot
* asked whether they could advertise themselves as appearing at our club


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,WorldlyWise
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:24 AM

Isn't the dark art of marketing all about lies and exaggeration, anyway?


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:38 AM

Maybe if it becomes a problem you could "name and shame" here on mudcat...guess that might stop this happening

Tony


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: SunrayFC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM

naming and shaming is not always the best approach, as sometimes people consider they are justified in thinking there is a chance of a song spot.

At the Sunray we make it very clear that "walk-ins" are rare. We usually book all the slots well in advance. And this usually results in an excellent, well balanced evening.

Now I am sure (and I know) this doesn't go down well with some people. But we made a conscious decision and we are sticking with it.

And it seems to be working.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM

Its not a question of name and shame. Its a question of people who aspire to be a proffesional being proffesional. There are lots of people with Talent who never make it. The marketing and selling is about proffesionalism and not selling yourself short or over selling.

Those with little tallent and good marketing frequently come and go in a brief flare of a spluttering flame.My Space is a tool and like all tools needs to be used with care and a mind for saftey, so that it does not turn round and hurt you when you least expect it.

The best way to get a name is to go out there and blow peoples socks off. Keep doing that and you will get bookings. Do good bookings and you get invited back, the name gets arround and you prosper.

Old fashioned I know, but good enough for the likes of Spires and Bowden, Show of Hands and Lau.

Big Elk


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:02 AM

We did a spot on the singer's stage at Cambridge FF a couple of years ago and were a bit embarrassed that we seemed to be the only 'amateurs' and the only ones who hadn't got a CD to push. The couple on after us later put on their website that, amongst their past gigs, they had played Cambridge Folk Festival.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

I think this has been touched on a bit in the "Folk Club Manners" thread.

In a way, it's bandwagon jumping as these people know that they will be performing in front of a bigger audience than they could ever hope to gather themselves, courtesy of the pulling power of the main guest.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM

I have to admit that prior to moving to the Midlands I was unaware of the practise of "booking floor spots". However if approached the answer is always the same at our club; everyone is welcome and we will do our greatest endevour to give you a spot(although on a packed guest night the chances are it will be only one item)as long as time allows. Thankfully it is a long time since I have been cornered by someone who has been miffed by being missed on such a night.
Leveller makes a valid point I have have seen recent biogs where artists claim to have supported a major name by virtue of playing at the same festival although not necessarilly on the same day.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:30 AM

In the US-- if I understand what happened to you-- there is nothing lower than a "booked no-show," ESPECIALLY if advertising has already been done. Unless there is a really grand reason for the no-show-- death, ER, ice storm preventing travel-- a no-show is expected to furnish a replacement for you to approve, and if they don't, word does go around-- tactfully-- what they did. One way it goes around is that bookers call an artist's past bookers to check reliability before offering a gig.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM

All my support acts know well in advance, and it is very clear on Faldingworth Live website.
However, I must admit I do not check to see if the support acts state that they are supporting a main guest. Maybe its something I have to do as an organiser in future.
Walk ins do not happen at Faldingworth,no matter how good they are, unless of course the support act does not turn up.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

Les,

You'll be pleased to know that both Wendy's website and MySpace state 30 min supporting Bram Taylor at Faldingworth on Nov 15th, we tend to be pretty careful about this....... It is more difficult to describe the exact circumstances of your appearance at a festival though.

You can't really describe your place on a festival bill in the space allowed on MySpace (you know 50 mins between Blue fox & The Old Hens..... doesn't really work!)

Like Faldingworth I think KFFC is unlikely to have this problem as we don't do floor spots or "walk-in" supports. They are all booked well in advance.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: SunrayFC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:33 PM

Taking this one step further....I always look for new talent for the club and sometimes rely on "where they have recently played" and/or "who they have supported."
If people are not honest about their gig list, I run the risk of being misled.

I am particularly interested in the person who traveled from Bournemouth, as it is in my bailiwick.

And we always look for support artists to work with our excellent line up for the future.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

Phoning / Contacting a club that you intend to visit is perfectly acceptable IF you are travelling any distance ! At least ,IF you have booked a Floor Spot , you know you are not wasting your time and money and being told you cant get on the list .
But putting a Floor Spot on My Space as a Gig is (IMNSHO) Not On .


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM

Just leave a comment on their Myspace page and show them up for the prats they are.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM

Tricky one - I simply put places where I'll be playing on the 'upcoming shows' bit, but where I say 'supporting Les Barker' at Ringwood Folk Club in January, it means just that. We, the Warwick Slade Collective, are the support act to Les, just as we were to Isambarde at Wessex Acoustic in August. At Milford on Sea, also in early January, we are the 'booked act.'


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:03 PM

Never thought of that.
Gonna go check me My space see If I am being misleading.
I mostly dont bother as we only play when our turn comes round.
But I do sometimes put that we will be playing at such and such and the date bu it isn't meant as a claim to be guesting and we dont actualy do gigs as we dont consider that we would be good value for paying customers is just a fun thing for us.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

Phew think we are ok.
Villan get some great guests at his club and because he is kind,(and I cried a bit)he has let us play sometimes.
See I am sort of braggin online but not claimin anything more than what happened so I guess that is ok?


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM

Tim
You can come on as a guest but you don't fool me LOL :-)


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Girl Friday
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM

I thank Big Elk for this thread as it has raised a point that has been puzzling me and one that I do need advice on from someone more qualified. We are club organisers and perform floor spots only. However, we were sought out by a London Club that have a policy of booking their floor singers, and calling them support acts. I have noticed this system popping up at a lot of other clubs too.Therefore, we say we have supported...
My partner has a very talented 15 year old son who wants to play professionally. He finalised in the New Roots Competition. Amongst his prizes was a 30 minute support spot at Redbourn. He then entered BBC Radio 2 Young Folk Award, got through to the semi-finals, but failed to go further. The selected finalists, though all quite young, had "Supported" this, that, and the other superstar. To raise Ben's profile I have made him a Resident at our Folk Club and Dartford Folk Club (his local club) have agreed that he can do several floor spots there, so can we say then, that he has supported x, y, and z ?

Clarification please, from someone who knows.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

At Lymm we use a pool of 'residents' for support for guests, and only very occasionally allow someone to do a 'pre-raffle-ite' spot after the interval.

If a guest brings a friend along and asks if they can do a spot we will try to accommodate them, but our rule for a guest night is simple... the audience have paid to see the guest, so we must make sure we don't detract from that in any way.

I do remember a couple of years back that Allan Taylor brought a rather promising fiddler with him... Tom somebody or other... and we let him do a 'floor spot'. Oh yes... McConville...

Seriously, though, we've also had a 'floor spot' from Bob Fox (he was Vin Garbutt's 'driver' one time!) and a few other lesser-known names, but we would never suggest that they had been invited as 'support', and would take a dim view of them using that as publicity, just as Bob and Tom would probably be affronted if we suggested they had been doing support spots in our publicity.

I can understand people wishing to use club appearances as publicity/recommendation, but they should always seek permission from the club organiser, and clarify what they whould be saying.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:16 PM

If I'm visiting an area I will generally contact a club to see if a floor spot is a possibility, hoping the organiser will realise it's with a view to a gig in due course. It wouldn't occur to me to put that down AS a gig, or a support act, however, but I have seen it on other peoples' promo.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:28 PM

That's fair enough, Anne - a professional approach that organisers would respect.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:14 PM

I think its the biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard,as far as I am concerned there is a difference between a floor spot,and a support act.
a floor spot is generally two or three songs,[ and unpaid].
a support act is half an hour,and I as understood it paid.[or should be]
anyone that puts foor spots in their publicity in an attempt to kid future organisers is dishonest.
call me old fashioned,but I think it is sad day,and a sad reflection of the current scene,when people indulge in this chicanery.it reflects the worst aspects of the pop scene.
I agree with Ann Lister,and that would be my Modus Operandi too
Girl Friday,I think you are making a mistake.,if support acts have become floor spots, and floor spots become support acts where is the kudos,no one is fooled.[please dont be offended,you asked for an opinion.
Personally I prefer to do floor spots,at clubs that have booked me in the past,as a way of saying thankyou.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:26 PM

I agree with the Captain. Another rule of thumb is, if you have ask to perform it's a floorspot.

To be a support act you would have to be invited in advance, and be advertised as such in the publicity. It should probably be paid, although in some circumstances it might be done just for the publicity.

A floorspot is never a "gig" and should never be described as such, and to try to claim some reflected glory from the booked guest who happesn to be on that night is just dishonest.

In my experience proper support acts are fairly unusual on the folk scene, most clubs seem to manage well enough with residents and floor spots not to need them. Or more likely, they can't afford to pay two guests on a single evening. Either way, anyone claiming to do a lot of support acts is probably being misleading.

Girl Friday, doing regular floor spots at a club will be good experience but worthless as publicity, he should follow Tabster's advice and go round a lot of clubs doing floor spots, making sure they're aware that he's hoping to get a gig out of it (without being too pushy)


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 07:39 PM

Yes... I'm doing 'support' for Chris While and Julie Matthews on Friday 7th November at Maghull Town Hall, which is part of the annual 'Maghull Day of Folk'. It's an advertised booking (I'm named on the flyers and website), and I'm being paid.

At Lymm, on the other hand, when I do 'support' for a guest (in my role as a 'resident'), it's unpaid - but then I don't pay to get in, either. Sometimes I'm even doing sound at the same time!!

It seems fairly clear cut... and a lot of it boils down to good manners.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:00 PM

If you're booked by the club in advance, not by yourself, and you get paid an agreed fee. Then you are a support act.
If you turn up announced or unannounced and sing unpaid floor spots, then you are just Tom Dick or Harry, with a big head, and an over inflated sense of your own importance, not to mention abilities.

JM


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:25 PM

What we're all dying to know is how you get to be one of the important ones. Its nothing to do with entertainment value. It nothing to do with the ability to fill a room on your reputation, Its nothing to do how many records you've sold. Nothing to do with getting good reviews in the few magazines where its not some sort of crummy media fix.

Its certainly nowt to do with getting a good reception when you turn up to do a floorspot.

When you've done with bleating about people who travel miles to work for you for nothing. Look at it from other side of the window.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

I've been waiting forty years to be an overnight success...!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:01 PM

The more of these folk club threads I see and read, the gladder I think I am that we don't really have them here! What a MESS!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:05 PM

that's exactly what I think, Sorcha..


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM

I am having a difficult time understanding how one finds enough time in a evening to schedule two sets from a featured act, an opening act, and a few hat-in-handers playing three songs each--


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:41 PM

Interesting thread. It brings to mind one evening at Whitby Folk Week this year. A young man turned up with guitar on the door at the nightly Folk Club. On that occasion the MC for the night was Doc Rowe. Before the start of the evening the young man handed over a wodge of flyers advertising his gig list (which was exceedingly long) ; during the course of the evening, like everyone else who had put their name on the list, he performed one item with guitar accompaniment,(he was a good guitarist, but only an average to middling singer) and eventually left somewhere around three quarters of the way through the evening, He was not one of the four or five named artists on the so-called "bill" during the evening.

When proceedings finished, Doc happened to pick up one of the gig listing flyers ... on which it was found that the stranger had put down two entries for Folk Week. The first of these, on the day of the Folk Club event, showed him as gigging in the Main Tent at Whitby; the entry for the next day showed him as in "the Folk Tent". Much hilarity ensued in the room, and a certain amount of inevitable disbelief in the truthfulness of the rest of the very, very long list of "gigs". I suppose the moral of the story might be that, if you're going to tell porkies like that, at least make sure they're half way believable ones . Me personally, I'm still trying to work out where the Main Tent and Folk Tent at Whitby are ...

Personally I'm amazed (perhaps I'm too honest or too trusting) that anyone would seek to describe a floorspot, whether pre-booked or not, as being a support act. I'd always understood that to be something more substantial and advertised as such, as already argued.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:24 AM

The more of these folk club threads I see and read, the gladder I think I am that we don't really have them here!
But it's easy to make a folk club wherever you are in the world. Just put two cats in a sack with a terrier, chuck in a bottle of beer and a banjo, and shake well. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:41 AM

When Meatloaf and Harry Cox performed at the Imaginary Folk Club, both of them phoned me up and asked me to appear on the same night. I can legitimately advertise myself as a support act to both.

When Meatloaf and Harry Cox performed at the Imaginary Folk Club, Harry phoned me up and asked me to appear on the same night. I can legitimately advertise myself as a support act to Harry but not to Meatloaf.

When Meatloaf and Harry Cox performed at the Imaginary Folk Club the organiser asked me to do a spot, but without consulting either performer. I can legitimately advertise myself as a support act at concerts at the Imaginary Folk Club, but not using either person's name.

In all other circumstances I can legitimately advertise myself as a pretentious prat trying to look tall by scrambling onto the backs of giants.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

"Much hilarity ensued in the room, and a certain amount of inevitable disbelief in the truthfulness of the rest of the very, very long list of "gigs".

Exactly, it's counter-productive. It will soon become very clear that the "artist" is bullshitting, and it won't do their "career" any good.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:57 AM

Well, anyone following another thread will know that at Swinton we have guest nights and singers nights. On a singers night we will accomodate everyone, even though there are so many on some nights they only get one or two songs each, so we will ignore singers nights. That leaves guest nights. We do not have 'support spots', Ie nothing advertised, although at times I have incorrectly refered to them as such. Just floorsingers.

Just as Bernard says the main point on a guest night is to try and get as much of the guest as possible so we have just 15 or 20 minutes in both halves in which to put on floor singers. We have no set 'policy' so it is rather complex but basicaly I will try to accomodate anyone new or who has travelled far, provided we have not already filled the floorspots with club residents. If anyone rings up and asks in advance I will try to make sure they get on. If anyone does not get on and complains I ask them to come back on a singers night where we will ensure they perform.

Back to topic - I would not see anyone advertising themselves as being on at the club as a problem necessarily. Provided they get bums on seats, realise that the extra money they bring in goes to the main artist and understand that they are only getting 2 songs at the most!

Hope this helps

DeG


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:03 AM

Oh - and that they pay their entry money as well:-)

D.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:05 AM

We put on 1 support act, at the beginning and they get 30 minutes.
We always start promptly at 8:00pm.
The rest of the evening is for the main guest.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Surreysinger
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:19 AM

Villan - that sounds exactly what a support act should be ... certainly not a floorspot!!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:48 AM

Okay, we've established there's a difference between floor singers and support/resident acts. What works for one club may be a disaster at another.

No-one has the right to decide what's best for a particular club other than the people who run the club, tempered by what their audience wants. It's certainly impertinent for someone who doesn't know the club to pontificate on 'rights' and 'wrongs'.

What an audience thinks they want, and what they really want, can be two different things, too! Sometimes the organiser has to go out an a limb (Lymm?!) and present a show. Persuading people to come to see something they think they won't like can be tricky...

It's just like the old 'I don't like Guinness, but I've never tried it' syndrome...


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: squeezebox-kc
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:55 AM

Years ago at the Singing Jenny Club Huddersfield Hamish Imlach turned up as booked guest and asked if the guy he brought with him could play a spot= Christy Moore rest is history. on the other hand Paul Simon turned up for a floor spot one night and the list was full


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM

I've heard about Hamish turning up with Eric Clapton as well and Eric being refused a spot. On the other hand at Newcastle Polytechnic Folk Club I refused Richard Digance a spot, he had been asked earlier and told the MC to f*ck off so when he decide he wanted to sing we told him exactly the same and a similar thing happened at Aylesbury with John Ottway


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:40 AM

To pull back to the core of my original thread.

All singers should always be accommodated if feasible.

If a guest brings a singer with them. Fine accommodate if possible.

What stated me on this thread was people who had effectively invited themselves to the club who's diary page showed their visit as a support act booking.

A support act or a featured singer who has "been invited" and normally paid, no problem and we will stick them on our website as well.

To MC fat I am trying to work out who you are, especially as I could have claimed to have supported both Richard Digance and John Ottway in Aylesbury, using some people's doubtful yardstick. Are you the Scottish ex librarian?

Balance to all please discuss don't slag off, it's not nice.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:42 AM

Well put Bernard


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:47 AM

I am the Scottish ex librarian Big Elk (who is you ?) The Richard Digance thing was in Newcastle. John Ottway was at the King's Head Aylesbury.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM

Simple rules I follow:

1. I never ask for a floor spot at a club with a booked guest act unless I know the organisers and I've been told in advance that it's OK.

2. Where I want to do a singers' night floor spot at a club I've never been to before, I always contact the organisers in advance to see if it's OK and to find out the "form".

3. If a floor spot seems to have gone OK, I give my details to the organisers so that, if they want to have me as a support or a guest act, it's their choice. Sometimes this pays off with a booking - sometimes it doesn't.

4. I never advertise floor spots I've done.

If you're keen to get on the circuit, as it were, it can be a hard slog sometimes, so I can understand why people make more of themselves. But, as has already been said it's counterproductive, in the end, to be a bullshitter.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

Floor spots is a tradition that should be allowed to die. I am fed up of going to folk clubs to listen to such and such artists only to have to wade through a bunch on non-entities before I get to them.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

Guests is a tradition that should be allowed to die. I am fed up of going to folk clubs to listen to folk music only to have to sit through an overpaid undertalented selfopinionated non-entity instead.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Joe G
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM

Oooh controversial

I don't mind one or two floor singers if they are competent but I once went to see Jez Lowe and had to suffer about 8 in each half meaning that Jez only had time to do short sets. Needless to say I did not return to that club!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:28 AM

Floor spots is a tradition that should be allowed to die. I am fed up of going to folk clubs to listen to such and such artists only to have to wade through a bunch on non-entities before I get to them.

Then go to concerts and not folk clubs. Folk clubs (and open mic sessions in pubs) are places where beginners can learn their trade. Folk clubs have generally been, for as long as I can remember - and I can remember a long way back - patient and welcoming environments for people starting out or trying to make their way. The point of this thread is that such people should not take advantage of this for false advertising.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

Come to Swinton Folk Club, Pengin Egg. Not only will you find we limit floor spots to around 15 minutes in each half on guest nights but the song 'Penguin Eggs' has become a bit of an anthem there - hence the penguins on the web site:-)

I disagree that floor spots should 'be allowed to die out' but I appreciate that there are those, like you, who go to see just the main act. As suggested, maybe concerts would be better, or those clubs, like Villans, where you know exactly when the main act will start and can avoid the support acts?

Going back to the main topic, Big Elk, maybe you could just put a link on your web page if you have one, to the culprits diary page and mention that although they have been on or are coming on at the club, they are not an official booking. Thank them for the publicity and build up a good relationship without letting them abuse your hospitality?

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM

DeG - just checked out the Swinton Club Rules - glad to see that bribery is allowed when asking to get extra songs. Is it VERY expensive?

By the way, no photos on the Photos link - I was looking forward to seeing a happy, smiling Gnome this morning! :-)


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: SunrayFC
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:17 AM

At the Sunray FC we have several approaches, in an attempt to please as many as we can.
Folk Club nights we do have space for a few floor singers, and we are blessed with quality.
In Concert nights we only have one support artist(s) who do 30 mins- then its the guest.
And we do try to fit in a Club Night when there is more room for more singers.

I dont suppose we ever get it right, but we try.

And I do know there are many out there who are not fans of floor singers. I would urge people to give them a chance. Their spots don't last long and in some ways it makes the overall evening better.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

>>like Villans, where you know exactly when the main act will start and can avoid the support acts?
<<

In actual fact, our audience is there well before the support act starts. So we don't normally get people ariving for the main guest on its own.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

Blimey, Les, wish we could get people in before 8! Our lot don't start to turn out till about 9 - Blood lazy lot:-D We don't often get people turning up just for the guest either but I must relte my experience of the festival. Every year, bar none, for the last 22 years (I think) of Swinton Folk Festival at least one person rings to ask what time a particular artist is on. When I say 'afternoon concert' or 'evening concert' they always want to know a specific time so they can just watch them! Beats me every time so I usualy just give the running oreder and let them work it out! Don't know if it is the same person every time and I don't think I have ever met them but I would love to know why they are happy to pay for a full concert just to watch 0 minutes of it!

Nothing to do with the topic but there is probably a moral or lesson to be learnt somewhere:-)

Will - No, they haven't worked for ages. Must tell our web bloke. You can find a picie of me smiling because I am on my favourite bike on my live space. Should be enough to frighten the horses...

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

Whoops, damn sticky number 3, that should read just to watch 30 minutes of it.

D.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Girl Friday
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM

Thanks Dick for your comments. No offence taken, I needed clarification.. and I agree with your oppinion. Will Fly...
1. "I never ask for a floor spot at a club with a booked guest act unless I know the organisers and I've been told in advance that it's OK." That's exactly the right approach. I'm a club organiser myself and would expect you to do so. We have always pre- arranged our floor spots at Dartford with the organiser whether they for us, or for Ben. At my Folk Club we have several good resident performers. They don't always all turn up so the guest spots are of a proper length. It is rare that any floor singers turn up expecting to get a spot without having first contacted me.
As to being paid for supporting guests... our 25 minutes was unpaid
and Ben's was a prize in the New Roots competition.
I can assume then, that all the finalists in Young Folk Award who stated that they'd supported X, Y, and Z had actually been paid to do so? This is the question that requires an answer please.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Father Knew Wild Willy Barrett
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

MC Fat - you didn't let Otway sing in AYLESBURY? The mans an Aylsebury hero you realise, a legend... well he's from there, anyway. Local accent even. A freind of mine once pointed out the "Ayelsbury R" in the way he talks... "Trying Times" is a good song to show it off.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: matt milton
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM

a lot of people use their myspace pages simply to let friends know what they are doing.

Sticking it up on their myspace gigs is a lot more innocuous than it's being portrayed here: quite often it's not that so and so is trying to pretend they've got an official support slot with Martin Carthy or whoever, they're just letting friends know they're planning on going along to whichever club it is, and hope to play.

Last Friday i went along to a folk night organized by The Woodlarks (myspace.com/thewoodlarks) that's based around floorspots. I noticed that Jason McNiff, a musician I like, had put it up on his mspace page under his gigs, to let people know he was going and would probably play. It was an extra incentive for me to go, as it happens, though I'd have gone anyway. If I'm going to an open mic I might mention it on my myspace page too (though I would probably mention that it's an open mic.)

Also I don't quite understand the original problem in the original post:

"This situation left me with an embarrassing situation, the person who had requested a spot first finished the second half the last booked in finished the second half.
I turned away local singers who support the club = pissed of regulars"

Surely this was a problem of your own making? I mean, you're not morally obliged to give newcomers or out-of-towners priority or any longer a floorspot than regulars. Isn't it just first come first served, irrespective of how far someone's travelled? Maybe I've misunderstood what happened there.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: matt milton
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

Also, one other thing I've just thought:

"In a way, it's bandwagon jumping as these people know that they will be performing in front of a bigger audience than they could ever hope to gather themselves, courtesy of the pulling power of the main guest."

well yes, this is true, but you've got to remember it's also the case that musicians often genuinely LIKE the (big-name) performers that are playing that night. And if you're a musician going to see a musician you like at a night with floorspots you're going to try to get one!

But, to go further, I don't see what's so wrong with going along to a night at which you don't even know who's headlining, or even one where you dislike the music of the particular headliner. You feel like playing a floorspot; you go to a club that offers floorspots.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,John from Elsies` Band
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM

Big Elk,
         Referring to your opening post, are you saying these two visitors finished both halves after your main paid guest performer?
         Also, I wonder if they surreptiously recorded themselves??
You may find that on MySpace too.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:54 AM

The (Occasional , thankfully) practice of putting ALL the floor singers on and then cutting back on the time the guest gets to perform should CERTAINLY be stamped out !
As should letting floor singers Go On And On And On , so reducing the available space for any one who CAN do a good floor spot .
When I was running the evenings at Uxbridge , the times were set in
Re-inforced Concrete - Floor spots no more than Ten minutes , and the time the guest started each set laid down too . IF a guest wanted to do a longer than 35 minute set , two floor spots were dropped in each half !
And it Worked !


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

To the FAT MC, Bob Templeman. Dave Fenner and I where discussing you the other Wednesday, did your ears burn

Dave Fenner does a superb version of a song call Add Me, very appropriate.
"Add me, add me, would you like to add me as a friend?"   

To all the thread relates to the honesty of describing a floor spot as a support gig.

I believe passionately about folk and not concert clubs. Therefore I believe floor spots are a cornerstone to the club and must not be abused at any time.

The question. "Is it fair to post a floorspot as a support gig and refer to this on bio information and gig lists"??????????????????????

If you want to let mates know you are in a place on a date put floor spot and not Support on you're My Space page.

I stress, to turn up as MC and to have two people claiming that they are a support act is a problem, especially if you do the bookings and know nothing about it. Both acts had been told, in advance, by e mail that, subject to space they could do a floor spot to a maximum of 10 min each. This is not a support spot.


If a prospective artistes' gig list, past gigs and bio form a description to trade, i.e. use this information to book me, this then becomes false representation. A car salesman doing this would be pilloried in the press and on TV and could face an unlimited fine and or prison.


And again please be nice folkies and don't slag each other off.

Big Love


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM

info (just out of passing interest)....

RE: Dave Fenner does a superb version of a song call Add Me, very appropriate.
"Add me, add me, would you like to add me as a friend?"   

....that's a Chumbawamba song, and currently on their myspace.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:43 PM

I presume that Penguin Egg and Joe G are not performers?
Anyway suffice to say that I don't think that they would enjoy our club (Traditions at the Tiger). We advertise a 7:30 start and get underway no later than 7:45; the guest does a short introductory spot around 8pm and then 2 x 30+ minute spots as the night progresses. It is very seldom that residents and floor singers on the night do not run into double figures; most nights it is one song/tune/story apiece and I can only remember 2 complaints in almost eighteen years.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: MC Fat
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

I hope Bob Templeman and Dave Fenner were saying nice things ? You still haven't said who you are now I'm intrigued.To the guest wh signed in as father Knew Wild Willy this was over 30 yeras ago and he was an Aykesbury hero then. He came on an artists night and was asked if he wanted to play, he declined but then after the first half deccided he wanted to play by which time it were too late


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: BB
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Once a month, our club is a 'concert' club, with 'support' acts, but many of you wouldn't call it such, as its format is that of a conventional folk club with three-song floor spots, albeit pre-booked, although not advertised by name. But many of our audience are not 'folkies' and calling it a concert means that there is a better chance of them behaving in a certain way, i.e. not talking or wandering about when people are performing, and they wouldn't have a clue what a floor spot was, so we call them support spots. But they are not support acts doing 30 mins. and being paid. They do a maximum of 15 mins. and everyone, but everyone (except the guest) pays to come in.

If any of those 'support acts' advertised that they were playing as support for the guest, I don't think they would be asked again!

(Incidentally, we run a singaround-style night once a month as well.)

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Betsy
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM

I understand much of what has been said , but I still hark back to getting home after work - reading the newspaper - deciding there was F*ck all worth watching on TV - and get ready to go to the folk club , do a couple of songs, maybe enjoy some other floor singers before going into the bar or wherever have a good natter with ould friends before returning to see performers I REALLY wanted to see whether the Guest or more floor singers .
It's not like that anymore - hence I don't generally don't bother now.
I found myself reading WLD's and Leadfinger's posts with relative comfort but got the feeling in some other posts that too much of a Folk night is becoming too bureaucratic.
Having said THAT, I must praise the organisers who have an almost thankless task in trying to please everyone.
The whole thing is difficult to balance in an amicable manner, and maybe there are too many average Joe's on the folk scene blowing their own trumpets too loud in order to achieve their 15 mins. of fame .
(With apologies to Warhol and [I suppose ] trumpets) .


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Aeola
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:11 PM

Interesting comments, shame that there are people about who will revert to any strategy to get known, mind they perhaps will get known for the wrong reasons hopefully. I'm a relative latecomer to the Folk scene but have really enjoyed all the various types of Folk clubs and given the chance will gladly get up and perform.As for supporting a Guest, well, from the audience. I know my place!!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM

One thing that doesn't seem to have been noticed, but which might be relevant, is the use of word 'gig'. It's not a word I ever use; it always struck me as a bit of phoney muso's slang, intended to make the user seem 'hip'. I hate it. nowadays, it's used by all and sundry, in an apparent attempt to seem as if they are in on something. Sorry...I'm off on one of me rants here....My point is that the word is often used when a person is merely doing a floor spot, and doesn't necessarily relate to a paid - or even a formally-arranged appearance. Of course, there are the chancers and hype merchants, who will always try to make themselves seem busier, better or bigger than they really are, and who, as modern parlance has it 'can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk'... or some such bollocks. They soon get themselves the wrong sort of reputation. Club organisers and punters - and, indeed, other musicians - will talk....It's just a pity that in their desperate scremblr for the top, they make the path more difficult for the rest of us.
For my own part, I contact clubs to arrange floor spots. I call them floor spots, even if the organiser asks me to do a 20 minute spot at the beginning and refers to it as a support spot. I will list these appearances, once arranged, on my Mudcat Permathread, and on my webpage (I don't have a Myspace), as 'floor spots'. Paid appearances are listed as 'bookings'. And I don't see the point of claiming to have 'supported Joe Bloggs'; what's the point? It tells you nothing about me - what I do or how good I might be.
A bit of simple honesty does no harm. John Kelly.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM

A floor spot at Dartford Folk Club
as rare as a striped cheetah !
The residents have it well and truly sewn up (in American chain stitch !)
p.s this definitely isn't a come on to TDL - just a plea for something new and brimming with in energy (and rhythm) in Kent


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: jiva
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

We've seen numerous people portraying floor spots as 'gigs' (yes, that word is much abused) on their websites and Myspace profiles - we don't do that, although can appreciate how some believe that by doing so they will somehow be seen as more busy and more important. We think that most performers and organisers will not be impressed by such tactics.

We see floor spots as just that - turning up at a club on a singers/residents/singaround night and taking part in however the night is run by the organisers. If we'll be travelling more than say 100 mile round trip on the day/night we usually contact the organisers beforehand to confirm that we'd get a song or two.

We see a support spot as when an organiser has asked us to specifically perform in support of a guest that is booked as the main act. It may be 10 minutes, it may be 30 minutes, or whatever they ask for... and it may or may not be paid.

On the jiva Myspace profile we make a point of mentioning that:

"The dates shown below are scheduled performances. Additionally, we regularly pop in to residents nights and singarounds to do the occasional floor spot... but these are not included in the Upcoming Performances list."

Then for those items that are listed we give date/time, venue details, organiser contact details, indicator of what we're doing (eg "Support to .....", "Private performance", "Hiring fair", "Studio guests", "Main act" etc).

That way there should be no doubt in anyone's mind about the 'status' (for want of a better word) of any of these scheduled performances.

Our website Home page has a call-out box on the left (below the navigation buttons) which gives a summary of the next four scheduled performances taken from our Myspace.

The website 'About Us' page says that we do floor spots at singarounds and singers nights in clubs, and it mentions formally arranged support slots we have done for named professional artists, occasional guest spots at clubs and performances at some small festivals as well as charity events and fundraisers... this section will hopefully give some idea of what we do for anyone who might be looking for performers for a venue/event.

But there is certainly no substitute for playing floor spots where we can enjoy new venues/clubs, meet new people and hear some good music and maybe even be asked back again.

jiva (Jimmy & Val)
www.jiva.co.uk
www.myspace.com/jivauk


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

You do it correctly Jimmy & Val and I look forward to seeing and hearing you at Faldingworth Live on March 21st 2009 when we have Maclaine Colston & Saul Rose as our main guest.
Cheers
Les Worrall


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM

"Gig" is a term I and other musos have used for 40 years, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but I believe it originated in the jazz world. So I've done gigs in dance bands, jug bands, rock'n roll bands, blues bands and ceildh bands, and I've done solo gigs and duo gigs. But a floor spot is never a gig and never has been - a gig is a paid engagement. Just my 10-pennorth.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

Harmonium Hero,

You forgot to mention the other category when you phone up the organiser to book a support slot, and you turn up and get MISTAKEN FOR THE MAIN GUEST -

A certain organiser will never live that one down!

We all enjoyed your slot that night!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM

My club has 10 concerts a year, most with support act of 30 mins, & main act of 90 mins (usually 30 + 60). Some nights we have 2 acts with 1 hour each (usually 30 mins before supper each & 30 mins after).

We always start with a few floorspots, either arranged beforehand, or tapped on the shoulder as they arrive. All floorspots pay to attend, & have 10 minutes which means 2 or maybe 3 short songs)

Someone mentioned the 8 floorspots before a performance by Jez Low - one of my friends had a similar experience back in the olden days at a club where they had been been booked. Format was 1 booked act & a few floorspots.

There were so many floorspots before the band started that they had a far shorter time to perform before the caretaker returned to lock the hall. My friend was a regular at that club & saw this happen many times, & also saw regulars vote with their feet like he eventually did & not come back. The club withered & died 'cos concerts became later & later due to delays in starting + excessive numbers of floorspots. It might have been better to give up on booked acts & become a singalong, but ...

My club generally works well with 2 or 3 floorspots + 2 booked (paid) acts. Mostly I know the floorspots or have heard of them, occasionally a stranger calls for a spot & I usually say ok if I haven't already filled the spots. most of these strangers are appreciated by the audience, occasionally they are not, but it's only 10 minutes in a two & a half hour evening.

Other Sydney clubs use a different format - one has 3 booked acts, tho I don't know if they have equal time, another has 1 booked act + floorspots, & others are singalongs. There's something for everybody.

sandra


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:50 AM

Despite 78 entries, we are yet to hear from anyone who supports this practice. For the sake of balance if you use myspace to advertise floor spots as support spots in this way and feel its justified, please let us know.

I have my own very stong views but I would like to hear the other side of the story if there is one.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM

Big E ! I would like to bet that ANYONE supporting the idea would only do so anonymously , else they would probably NEVER get another Floor Spot - Certainly not in any Club I was involved in !


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Bernard
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:51 AM

For what it's worth, I once arranged to go to a club (not local to me) to do a floor spot on a singers' night, and invited a few friends along as moral support.

On that particular evening there were around twenty five people in the room including the club organisers, and my friends accounted for fifteen of them!

As the club didn't seem to be doing very well, I thought I'd give it a plug on my website, and as the organisers who were present had suggested I may well be booked, I also mentioned that. Nothing definite, just a 'watch this space'. Okay, maybe a little arrogant, but I felt it was justified at the time.

One of the organisers who hadn't been there that evening saw what I'd written and objected, saying I hadn't been promised a booking... and would I remove it from my website, which I duly did.

I was never offered a gig at that club, but I'd rather not set foot through their door again anyway.

Interestingly, there was a band there that evening, who were subsequently booked... and disbanded before the gig!!

The organiser of a nearby club was there, and I did three gigs at their club!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Girl Friday
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:25 PM

Ah, another anonymous guest posting! Yes, indeed you can get 2 songs at Dartford providing you give them plenty of notice. Since becoming Folk Club Of The Year more people want to play there. And guest, there is new talent in Kent- Ben Little.

Kent Talent


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM

I wouldn't say I supported the idea but, with certain provisos, I would say it could be turned to your own advantage. I listed the conditions before but in case you missed them they are -

The 'support' act gets extra people in by his or her postings
They do realise that they will still only get 2 or 3 songs
They don't get paid
They pay to come in

Just my opinion.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

The problem, and what people are objecting to, is not putting it on Myspace, or whatever, to get your friends along, but describing a floor spot as a support act. They are quite different, as any fule kno, and people reading the entry will assume that the performer is getting more gigs than is actually the case. This is dishonest, particularly if you use your Myspace page as a showcase to get real gigs, as it gives an incorrect impression of the number of gigs you are doing. Any numpty can get a floor spot, to be given a gig whether as support or main guest is recognition that you have some talent as a performer.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:20 PM

When "Songs of Praise" came from "The Millenium Stadium" (home of Welsh rugby) I was a member of one of the choirs invited to provide a choral backing for (Sir) Cliff Richard & Bryn Terfel. can I 'big myself up' by claiming I've sung with them??


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

I suppose the practice is related to the old "I've played before the Prince of Wales....and the Duke of Marlborough, the Lamb and Flag, the Dog and Partridge...."
Actually, I HAVE played before the Prince of Wales - before the P of W scarpered, to be more accurate....
Will Fly: yes, I believe the term 'gig' originated in the jazz world. Does anybody know its derivation?
JK.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:37 PM

I think then it is fair to conclude that the Mudcat communities feel unable to support this practice.

Putting my initial sense of outrage aside, I think that it's sad that probably a very view people's misplaced sense of commercialism will now make me view My Space and Gig Lists with a cynical eye.

Having seen nothing to convince me otherwise, as far as I am concerned, the thread is dead. I would listen to the other side, but there obviously is not one to hear.

Impassioned plea to all aspiring artistes, play it clean, play it fair the only place to big it up is on stage. If you are good and relevant to the clubs audience you will see results. Plus you will have the confidence booster of positive feedback and a clear conscience.

Big Love


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM

In 1980/81 when I started going to clubs (as audience - Hammersmith Folk Club had a main guest and a support act, both on the publicity material, plus a selection of floor performers (not). I still remember the night that Ralph McTell did a floor spot!!!!

The difference was that the support acts were BOOKED (and paid).


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:58 AM

A mate of mine went to wedding a few years back and reckoned his spot went down better than McTell's - so he had Ralph as a support act, I suppose.

Going back to the original posting, I think somwe mutual respect is in order.

In a good club and with reasonable human beings, both performers and club organisers realise that they are mutually dependant.

If someone is planning to travel halfway across England to appear at your club, it would be courtesy at least to make it plain there are no false expectations. Similarly if you can see that the club organiser is being put under pressure from locals (his regular clientele) and even if it has been pre arranged and advertised - back off! You don't need to leave him anything in your will, and bear it in mind that its not your sort of place - and theres not really much point in making further arrangements.

This really isn't the business to indulge in orgies of bearing ill will. just cool it, and walk away. even when there are signed contracts involved, for most of us at this micro organism level, they don't mean anything. They are impossible to enforce, and what sort of message does it give the rest of the fishpond that you need contracts and a legal team to get people to listen to you.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Marje
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:15 AM

Are you quite sure, Guest above, that you want to advertise the fact that you've been "support for Cliff Richard?"    :-)

Marje


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

The other side of this coin is - could we have a small round of applause for the professionals who turn up and do a floor spot at clubs that have a known and definite policy of no guests - just because they know it's a good club and want to sing there: I'll name and shame Peta Webb, John Boden, Fay Hield and our own Captain Birdseye from personal experience - I don't doubt there are many others.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:01 AM

Marje:
Are you quite sure, Guest above, that you want to advertise the fact that you've been "support for Cliff Richard?"    :-)

There's posh for you! I have to admit that I was once in a band that was the support group for Showaddywaddy. The old Edwardian theatre in Horsham where we did the gig is now a branch of M&S... I'll get me coat.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM

Leaving aside the concept of what is or isn't a gig, suppose that you're invited to do a floor spot, maybe an extended one, though you're not offered payment. Let's just call it a performance.

In my view it would be OK to mention this on your website as it's a pre-arranged event to which you can invite people such as other club organisers that you want to impress.

Would anyone object to that? For people like me who are just starting out, it's a possible avenue towards recognition, though I agree that it's misleading to advertise an unarranged floor spot in the same way unless you make it clear that it is what it is.

Faye.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

Faye, whilst payment would help to confirm that a performance was as "support", I don't think it's essential. More important to me would be that it was by invitation made in advance and longer than a normal floorspot, and preferably mentioned on the advertising.

I think it's fine to mention any performance on your website, as long as you're honest about it. It's trying to give a false impression of how much demand you're in, and trying to claim reflected glory from the main guest, which is objectionable.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dulci
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM

So does everyone turn up at 8.30 and your support act sings to himself ? Interesting


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

>>So does everyone turn up at 8.30 and your support act sings to himself ? Interesting <<

I find at Faldingworth Live, our audience are in there place, well before the support act comes on. Maybe thats becuase the support act is good. So we don't get female or male support acts singing to themselves.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Girl Friday
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM

"I believe the term 'gig' originated in the jazz world. Does anybody know its derivation?" I heard, and it's feasible... A gig was a horse-drawn cart, and therefore, "a gig" was an event that was as far as was possible to travel to in one.


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