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Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights

Girl Friday 28 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM
Dulci 26 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 11 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Faye 11 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM
Will Fly 11 Nov 08 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Suffolk Miracle 11 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM
Marje 11 Nov 08 - 05:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Nov 08 - 04:58 AM
SPB-Cooperator 10 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM
Big Elk 10 Nov 08 - 12:37 PM
Harmonium Hero 09 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM
GUEST 08 Nov 08 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 08 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM
Girl Friday 08 Nov 08 - 12:25 PM
Bernard 08 Nov 08 - 08:51 AM
Leadfingers 08 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM
Big Elk 08 Nov 08 - 04:50 AM
Sandra in Sydney 07 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM
Acorn4 07 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM
Will Fly 07 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM
The Villan 07 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM
jiva 07 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM
Harmonium Hero 06 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM
Aeola 06 Nov 08 - 07:11 PM
Betsy 06 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM
BB 06 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM
MC Fat 06 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM
Dave Sutherland 06 Nov 08 - 12:43 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM
Big Elk 06 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM
Leadfingers 06 Nov 08 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,John from Elsies` Band 06 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM
matt milton 06 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM
matt milton 06 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,Father Knew Wild Willy Barrett 06 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM
Girl Friday 06 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM
The Villan 06 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM
SunrayFC 06 Nov 08 - 09:17 AM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 08:28 AM
Joe G 06 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Suffolk Miracle 06 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM
Folk Form # 1 06 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM
Will Fly 06 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Girl Friday
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:21 AM

"I believe the term 'gig' originated in the jazz world. Does anybody know its derivation?" I heard, and it's feasible... A gig was a horse-drawn cart, and therefore, "a gig" was an event that was as far as was possible to travel to in one.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

>>So does everyone turn up at 8.30 and your support act sings to himself ? Interesting <<

I find at Faldingworth Live, our audience are in there place, well before the support act comes on. Maybe thats becuase the support act is good. So we don't get female or male support acts singing to themselves.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dulci
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM

So does everyone turn up at 8.30 and your support act sings to himself ? Interesting


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

Faye, whilst payment would help to confirm that a performance was as "support", I don't think it's essential. More important to me would be that it was by invitation made in advance and longer than a normal floorspot, and preferably mentioned on the advertising.

I think it's fine to mention any performance on your website, as long as you're honest about it. It's trying to give a false impression of how much demand you're in, and trying to claim reflected glory from the main guest, which is objectionable.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM

Leaving aside the concept of what is or isn't a gig, suppose that you're invited to do a floor spot, maybe an extended one, though you're not offered payment. Let's just call it a performance.

In my view it would be OK to mention this on your website as it's a pre-arranged event to which you can invite people such as other club organisers that you want to impress.

Would anyone object to that? For people like me who are just starting out, it's a possible avenue towards recognition, though I agree that it's misleading to advertise an unarranged floor spot in the same way unless you make it clear that it is what it is.

Faye.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:01 AM

Marje:
Are you quite sure, Guest above, that you want to advertise the fact that you've been "support for Cliff Richard?"    :-)

There's posh for you! I have to admit that I was once in a band that was the support group for Showaddywaddy. The old Edwardian theatre in Horsham where we did the gig is now a branch of M&S... I'll get me coat.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

The other side of this coin is - could we have a small round of applause for the professionals who turn up and do a floor spot at clubs that have a known and definite policy of no guests - just because they know it's a good club and want to sing there: I'll name and shame Peta Webb, John Boden, Fay Hield and our own Captain Birdseye from personal experience - I don't doubt there are many others.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Marje
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:15 AM

Are you quite sure, Guest above, that you want to advertise the fact that you've been "support for Cliff Richard?"    :-)

Marje


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:58 AM

A mate of mine went to wedding a few years back and reckoned his spot went down better than McTell's - so he had Ralph as a support act, I suppose.

Going back to the original posting, I think somwe mutual respect is in order.

In a good club and with reasonable human beings, both performers and club organisers realise that they are mutually dependant.

If someone is planning to travel halfway across England to appear at your club, it would be courtesy at least to make it plain there are no false expectations. Similarly if you can see that the club organiser is being put under pressure from locals (his regular clientele) and even if it has been pre arranged and advertised - back off! You don't need to leave him anything in your will, and bear it in mind that its not your sort of place - and theres not really much point in making further arrangements.

This really isn't the business to indulge in orgies of bearing ill will. just cool it, and walk away. even when there are signed contracts involved, for most of us at this micro organism level, they don't mean anything. They are impossible to enforce, and what sort of message does it give the rest of the fishpond that you need contracts and a legal team to get people to listen to you.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM

In 1980/81 when I started going to clubs (as audience - Hammersmith Folk Club had a main guest and a support act, both on the publicity material, plus a selection of floor performers (not). I still remember the night that Ralph McTell did a floor spot!!!!

The difference was that the support acts were BOOKED (and paid).


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:37 PM

I think then it is fair to conclude that the Mudcat communities feel unable to support this practice.

Putting my initial sense of outrage aside, I think that it's sad that probably a very view people's misplaced sense of commercialism will now make me view My Space and Gig Lists with a cynical eye.

Having seen nothing to convince me otherwise, as far as I am concerned, the thread is dead. I would listen to the other side, but there obviously is not one to hear.

Impassioned plea to all aspiring artistes, play it clean, play it fair the only place to big it up is on stage. If you are good and relevant to the clubs audience you will see results. Plus you will have the confidence booster of positive feedback and a clear conscience.

Big Love


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

I suppose the practice is related to the old "I've played before the Prince of Wales....and the Duke of Marlborough, the Lamb and Flag, the Dog and Partridge...."
Actually, I HAVE played before the Prince of Wales - before the P of W scarpered, to be more accurate....
Will Fly: yes, I believe the term 'gig' originated in the jazz world. Does anybody know its derivation?
JK.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:20 PM

When "Songs of Praise" came from "The Millenium Stadium" (home of Welsh rugby) I was a member of one of the choirs invited to provide a choral backing for (Sir) Cliff Richard & Bryn Terfel. can I 'big myself up' by claiming I've sung with them??


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

The problem, and what people are objecting to, is not putting it on Myspace, or whatever, to get your friends along, but describing a floor spot as a support act. They are quite different, as any fule kno, and people reading the entry will assume that the performer is getting more gigs than is actually the case. This is dishonest, particularly if you use your Myspace page as a showcase to get real gigs, as it gives an incorrect impression of the number of gigs you are doing. Any numpty can get a floor spot, to be given a gig whether as support or main guest is recognition that you have some talent as a performer.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM

I wouldn't say I supported the idea but, with certain provisos, I would say it could be turned to your own advantage. I listed the conditions before but in case you missed them they are -

The 'support' act gets extra people in by his or her postings
They do realise that they will still only get 2 or 3 songs
They don't get paid
They pay to come in

Just my opinion.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Girl Friday
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:25 PM

Ah, another anonymous guest posting! Yes, indeed you can get 2 songs at Dartford providing you give them plenty of notice. Since becoming Folk Club Of The Year more people want to play there. And guest, there is new talent in Kent- Ben Little.

Kent Talent


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Bernard
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:51 AM

For what it's worth, I once arranged to go to a club (not local to me) to do a floor spot on a singers' night, and invited a few friends along as moral support.

On that particular evening there were around twenty five people in the room including the club organisers, and my friends accounted for fifteen of them!

As the club didn't seem to be doing very well, I thought I'd give it a plug on my website, and as the organisers who were present had suggested I may well be booked, I also mentioned that. Nothing definite, just a 'watch this space'. Okay, maybe a little arrogant, but I felt it was justified at the time.

One of the organisers who hadn't been there that evening saw what I'd written and objected, saying I hadn't been promised a booking... and would I remove it from my website, which I duly did.

I was never offered a gig at that club, but I'd rather not set foot through their door again anyway.

Interestingly, there was a band there that evening, who were subsequently booked... and disbanded before the gig!!

The organiser of a nearby club was there, and I did three gigs at their club!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM

Big E ! I would like to bet that ANYONE supporting the idea would only do so anonymously , else they would probably NEVER get another Floor Spot - Certainly not in any Club I was involved in !


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:50 AM

Despite 78 entries, we are yet to hear from anyone who supports this practice. For the sake of balance if you use myspace to advertise floor spots as support spots in this way and feel its justified, please let us know.

I have my own very stong views but I would like to hear the other side of the story if there is one.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM

My club has 10 concerts a year, most with support act of 30 mins, & main act of 90 mins (usually 30 + 60). Some nights we have 2 acts with 1 hour each (usually 30 mins before supper each & 30 mins after).

We always start with a few floorspots, either arranged beforehand, or tapped on the shoulder as they arrive. All floorspots pay to attend, & have 10 minutes which means 2 or maybe 3 short songs)

Someone mentioned the 8 floorspots before a performance by Jez Low - one of my friends had a similar experience back in the olden days at a club where they had been been booked. Format was 1 booked act & a few floorspots.

There were so many floorspots before the band started that they had a far shorter time to perform before the caretaker returned to lock the hall. My friend was a regular at that club & saw this happen many times, & also saw regulars vote with their feet like he eventually did & not come back. The club withered & died 'cos concerts became later & later due to delays in starting + excessive numbers of floorspots. It might have been better to give up on booked acts & become a singalong, but ...

My club generally works well with 2 or 3 floorspots + 2 booked (paid) acts. Mostly I know the floorspots or have heard of them, occasionally a stranger calls for a spot & I usually say ok if I haven't already filled the spots. most of these strangers are appreciated by the audience, occasionally they are not, but it's only 10 minutes in a two & a half hour evening.

Other Sydney clubs use a different format - one has 3 booked acts, tho I don't know if they have equal time, another has 1 booked act + floorspots, & others are singalongs. There's something for everybody.

sandra


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

Harmonium Hero,

You forgot to mention the other category when you phone up the organiser to book a support slot, and you turn up and get MISTAKEN FOR THE MAIN GUEST -

A certain organiser will never live that one down!

We all enjoyed your slot that night!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM

"Gig" is a term I and other musos have used for 40 years, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but I believe it originated in the jazz world. So I've done gigs in dance bands, jug bands, rock'n roll bands, blues bands and ceildh bands, and I've done solo gigs and duo gigs. But a floor spot is never a gig and never has been - a gig is a paid engagement. Just my 10-pennorth.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

You do it correctly Jimmy & Val and I look forward to seeing and hearing you at Faldingworth Live on March 21st 2009 when we have Maclaine Colston & Saul Rose as our main guest.
Cheers
Les Worrall


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: jiva
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

We've seen numerous people portraying floor spots as 'gigs' (yes, that word is much abused) on their websites and Myspace profiles - we don't do that, although can appreciate how some believe that by doing so they will somehow be seen as more busy and more important. We think that most performers and organisers will not be impressed by such tactics.

We see floor spots as just that - turning up at a club on a singers/residents/singaround night and taking part in however the night is run by the organisers. If we'll be travelling more than say 100 mile round trip on the day/night we usually contact the organisers beforehand to confirm that we'd get a song or two.

We see a support spot as when an organiser has asked us to specifically perform in support of a guest that is booked as the main act. It may be 10 minutes, it may be 30 minutes, or whatever they ask for... and it may or may not be paid.

On the jiva Myspace profile we make a point of mentioning that:

"The dates shown below are scheduled performances. Additionally, we regularly pop in to residents nights and singarounds to do the occasional floor spot... but these are not included in the Upcoming Performances list."

Then for those items that are listed we give date/time, venue details, organiser contact details, indicator of what we're doing (eg "Support to .....", "Private performance", "Hiring fair", "Studio guests", "Main act" etc).

That way there should be no doubt in anyone's mind about the 'status' (for want of a better word) of any of these scheduled performances.

Our website Home page has a call-out box on the left (below the navigation buttons) which gives a summary of the next four scheduled performances taken from our Myspace.

The website 'About Us' page says that we do floor spots at singarounds and singers nights in clubs, and it mentions formally arranged support slots we have done for named professional artists, occasional guest spots at clubs and performances at some small festivals as well as charity events and fundraisers... this section will hopefully give some idea of what we do for anyone who might be looking for performers for a venue/event.

But there is certainly no substitute for playing floor spots where we can enjoy new venues/clubs, meet new people and hear some good music and maybe even be asked back again.

jiva (Jimmy & Val)
www.jiva.co.uk
www.myspace.com/jivauk


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM

A floor spot at Dartford Folk Club
as rare as a striped cheetah !
The residents have it well and truly sewn up (in American chain stitch !)
p.s this definitely isn't a come on to TDL - just a plea for something new and brimming with in energy (and rhythm) in Kent


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM

One thing that doesn't seem to have been noticed, but which might be relevant, is the use of word 'gig'. It's not a word I ever use; it always struck me as a bit of phoney muso's slang, intended to make the user seem 'hip'. I hate it. nowadays, it's used by all and sundry, in an apparent attempt to seem as if they are in on something. Sorry...I'm off on one of me rants here....My point is that the word is often used when a person is merely doing a floor spot, and doesn't necessarily relate to a paid - or even a formally-arranged appearance. Of course, there are the chancers and hype merchants, who will always try to make themselves seem busier, better or bigger than they really are, and who, as modern parlance has it 'can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk'... or some such bollocks. They soon get themselves the wrong sort of reputation. Club organisers and punters - and, indeed, other musicians - will talk....It's just a pity that in their desperate scremblr for the top, they make the path more difficult for the rest of us.
For my own part, I contact clubs to arrange floor spots. I call them floor spots, even if the organiser asks me to do a 20 minute spot at the beginning and refers to it as a support spot. I will list these appearances, once arranged, on my Mudcat Permathread, and on my webpage (I don't have a Myspace), as 'floor spots'. Paid appearances are listed as 'bookings'. And I don't see the point of claiming to have 'supported Joe Bloggs'; what's the point? It tells you nothing about me - what I do or how good I might be.
A bit of simple honesty does no harm. John Kelly.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Aeola
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:11 PM

Interesting comments, shame that there are people about who will revert to any strategy to get known, mind they perhaps will get known for the wrong reasons hopefully. I'm a relative latecomer to the Folk scene but have really enjoyed all the various types of Folk clubs and given the chance will gladly get up and perform.As for supporting a Guest, well, from the audience. I know my place!!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Betsy
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM

I understand much of what has been said , but I still hark back to getting home after work - reading the newspaper - deciding there was F*ck all worth watching on TV - and get ready to go to the folk club , do a couple of songs, maybe enjoy some other floor singers before going into the bar or wherever have a good natter with ould friends before returning to see performers I REALLY wanted to see whether the Guest or more floor singers .
It's not like that anymore - hence I don't generally don't bother now.
I found myself reading WLD's and Leadfinger's posts with relative comfort but got the feeling in some other posts that too much of a Folk night is becoming too bureaucratic.
Having said THAT, I must praise the organisers who have an almost thankless task in trying to please everyone.
The whole thing is difficult to balance in an amicable manner, and maybe there are too many average Joe's on the folk scene blowing their own trumpets too loud in order to achieve their 15 mins. of fame .
(With apologies to Warhol and [I suppose ] trumpets) .


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: BB
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Once a month, our club is a 'concert' club, with 'support' acts, but many of you wouldn't call it such, as its format is that of a conventional folk club with three-song floor spots, albeit pre-booked, although not advertised by name. But many of our audience are not 'folkies' and calling it a concert means that there is a better chance of them behaving in a certain way, i.e. not talking or wandering about when people are performing, and they wouldn't have a clue what a floor spot was, so we call them support spots. But they are not support acts doing 30 mins. and being paid. They do a maximum of 15 mins. and everyone, but everyone (except the guest) pays to come in.

If any of those 'support acts' advertised that they were playing as support for the guest, I don't think they would be asked again!

(Incidentally, we run a singaround-style night once a month as well.)

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: MC Fat
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

I hope Bob Templeman and Dave Fenner were saying nice things ? You still haven't said who you are now I'm intrigued.To the guest wh signed in as father Knew Wild Willy this was over 30 yeras ago and he was an Aykesbury hero then. He came on an artists night and was asked if he wanted to play, he declined but then after the first half deccided he wanted to play by which time it were too late


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:43 PM

I presume that Penguin Egg and Joe G are not performers?
Anyway suffice to say that I don't think that they would enjoy our club (Traditions at the Tiger). We advertise a 7:30 start and get underway no later than 7:45; the guest does a short introductory spot around 8pm and then 2 x 30+ minute spots as the night progresses. It is very seldom that residents and floor singers on the night do not run into double figures; most nights it is one song/tune/story apiece and I can only remember 2 complaints in almost eighteen years.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM

info (just out of passing interest)....

RE: Dave Fenner does a superb version of a song call Add Me, very appropriate.
"Add me, add me, would you like to add me as a friend?"   

....that's a Chumbawamba song, and currently on their myspace.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Big Elk
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

To the FAT MC, Bob Templeman. Dave Fenner and I where discussing you the other Wednesday, did your ears burn

Dave Fenner does a superb version of a song call Add Me, very appropriate.
"Add me, add me, would you like to add me as a friend?"   

To all the thread relates to the honesty of describing a floor spot as a support gig.

I believe passionately about folk and not concert clubs. Therefore I believe floor spots are a cornerstone to the club and must not be abused at any time.

The question. "Is it fair to post a floorspot as a support gig and refer to this on bio information and gig lists"??????????????????????

If you want to let mates know you are in a place on a date put floor spot and not Support on you're My Space page.

I stress, to turn up as MC and to have two people claiming that they are a support act is a problem, especially if you do the bookings and know nothing about it. Both acts had been told, in advance, by e mail that, subject to space they could do a floor spot to a maximum of 10 min each. This is not a support spot.


If a prospective artistes' gig list, past gigs and bio form a description to trade, i.e. use this information to book me, this then becomes false representation. A car salesman doing this would be pilloried in the press and on TV and could face an unlimited fine and or prison.


And again please be nice folkies and don't slag each other off.

Big Love


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:54 AM

The (Occasional , thankfully) practice of putting ALL the floor singers on and then cutting back on the time the guest gets to perform should CERTAINLY be stamped out !
As should letting floor singers Go On And On And On , so reducing the available space for any one who CAN do a good floor spot .
When I was running the evenings at Uxbridge , the times were set in
Re-inforced Concrete - Floor spots no more than Ten minutes , and the time the guest started each set laid down too . IF a guest wanted to do a longer than 35 minute set , two floor spots were dropped in each half !
And it Worked !


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,John from Elsies` Band
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM

Big Elk,
         Referring to your opening post, are you saying these two visitors finished both halves after your main paid guest performer?
         Also, I wonder if they surreptiously recorded themselves??
You may find that on MySpace too.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: matt milton
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

Also, one other thing I've just thought:

"In a way, it's bandwagon jumping as these people know that they will be performing in front of a bigger audience than they could ever hope to gather themselves, courtesy of the pulling power of the main guest."

well yes, this is true, but you've got to remember it's also the case that musicians often genuinely LIKE the (big-name) performers that are playing that night. And if you're a musician going to see a musician you like at a night with floorspots you're going to try to get one!

But, to go further, I don't see what's so wrong with going along to a night at which you don't even know who's headlining, or even one where you dislike the music of the particular headliner. You feel like playing a floorspot; you go to a club that offers floorspots.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: matt milton
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM

a lot of people use their myspace pages simply to let friends know what they are doing.

Sticking it up on their myspace gigs is a lot more innocuous than it's being portrayed here: quite often it's not that so and so is trying to pretend they've got an official support slot with Martin Carthy or whoever, they're just letting friends know they're planning on going along to whichever club it is, and hope to play.

Last Friday i went along to a folk night organized by The Woodlarks (myspace.com/thewoodlarks) that's based around floorspots. I noticed that Jason McNiff, a musician I like, had put it up on his mspace page under his gigs, to let people know he was going and would probably play. It was an extra incentive for me to go, as it happens, though I'd have gone anyway. If I'm going to an open mic I might mention it on my myspace page too (though I would probably mention that it's an open mic.)

Also I don't quite understand the original problem in the original post:

"This situation left me with an embarrassing situation, the person who had requested a spot first finished the second half the last booked in finished the second half.
I turned away local singers who support the club = pissed of regulars"

Surely this was a problem of your own making? I mean, you're not morally obliged to give newcomers or out-of-towners priority or any longer a floorspot than regulars. Isn't it just first come first served, irrespective of how far someone's travelled? Maybe I've misunderstood what happened there.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Father Knew Wild Willy Barrett
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

MC Fat - you didn't let Otway sing in AYLESBURY? The mans an Aylsebury hero you realise, a legend... well he's from there, anyway. Local accent even. A freind of mine once pointed out the "Ayelsbury R" in the way he talks... "Trying Times" is a good song to show it off.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Girl Friday
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM

Thanks Dick for your comments. No offence taken, I needed clarification.. and I agree with your oppinion. Will Fly...
1. "I never ask for a floor spot at a club with a booked guest act unless I know the organisers and I've been told in advance that it's OK." That's exactly the right approach. I'm a club organiser myself and would expect you to do so. We have always pre- arranged our floor spots at Dartford with the organiser whether they for us, or for Ben. At my Folk Club we have several good resident performers. They don't always all turn up so the guest spots are of a proper length. It is rare that any floor singers turn up expecting to get a spot without having first contacted me.
As to being paid for supporting guests... our 25 minutes was unpaid
and Ben's was a prize in the New Roots competition.
I can assume then, that all the finalists in Young Folk Award who stated that they'd supported X, Y, and Z had actually been paid to do so? This is the question that requires an answer please.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

Whoops, damn sticky number 3, that should read just to watch 30 minutes of it.

D.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

Blimey, Les, wish we could get people in before 8! Our lot don't start to turn out till about 9 - Blood lazy lot:-D We don't often get people turning up just for the guest either but I must relte my experience of the festival. Every year, bar none, for the last 22 years (I think) of Swinton Folk Festival at least one person rings to ask what time a particular artist is on. When I say 'afternoon concert' or 'evening concert' they always want to know a specific time so they can just watch them! Beats me every time so I usualy just give the running oreder and let them work it out! Don't know if it is the same person every time and I don't think I have ever met them but I would love to know why they are happy to pay for a full concert just to watch 0 minutes of it!

Nothing to do with the topic but there is probably a moral or lesson to be learnt somewhere:-)

Will - No, they haven't worked for ages. Must tell our web bloke. You can find a picie of me smiling because I am on my favourite bike on my live space. Should be enough to frighten the horses...

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: The Villan
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

>>like Villans, where you know exactly when the main act will start and can avoid the support acts?
<<

In actual fact, our audience is there well before the support act starts. So we don't normally get people ariving for the main guest on its own.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: SunrayFC
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:17 AM

At the Sunray FC we have several approaches, in an attempt to please as many as we can.
Folk Club nights we do have space for a few floor singers, and we are blessed with quality.
In Concert nights we only have one support artist(s) who do 30 mins- then its the guest.
And we do try to fit in a Club Night when there is more room for more singers.

I dont suppose we ever get it right, but we try.

And I do know there are many out there who are not fans of floor singers. I would urge people to give them a chance. Their spots don't last long and in some ways it makes the overall evening better.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM

DeG - just checked out the Swinton Club Rules - glad to see that bribery is allowed when asking to get extra songs. Is it VERY expensive?

By the way, no photos on the Photos link - I was looking forward to seeing a happy, smiling Gnome this morning! :-)


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

Come to Swinton Folk Club, Pengin Egg. Not only will you find we limit floor spots to around 15 minutes in each half on guest nights but the song 'Penguin Eggs' has become a bit of an anthem there - hence the penguins on the web site:-)

I disagree that floor spots should 'be allowed to die out' but I appreciate that there are those, like you, who go to see just the main act. As suggested, maybe concerts would be better, or those clubs, like Villans, where you know exactly when the main act will start and can avoid the support acts?

Going back to the main topic, Big Elk, maybe you could just put a link on your web page if you have one, to the culprits diary page and mention that although they have been on or are coming on at the club, they are not an official booking. Thank them for the publicity and build up a good relationship without letting them abuse your hospitality?

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:28 AM

Floor spots is a tradition that should be allowed to die. I am fed up of going to folk clubs to listen to such and such artists only to have to wade through a bunch on non-entities before I get to them.

Then go to concerts and not folk clubs. Folk clubs (and open mic sessions in pubs) are places where beginners can learn their trade. Folk clubs have generally been, for as long as I can remember - and I can remember a long way back - patient and welcoming environments for people starting out or trying to make their way. The point of this thread is that such people should not take advantage of this for false advertising.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Joe G
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM

Oooh controversial

I don't mind one or two floor singers if they are competent but I once went to see Jez Lowe and had to suffer about 8 in each half meaning that Jez only had time to do short sets. Needless to say I did not return to that club!


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

Guests is a tradition that should be allowed to die. I am fed up of going to folk clubs to listen to folk music only to have to sit through an overpaid undertalented selfopinionated non-entity instead.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

Floor spots is a tradition that should be allowed to die. I am fed up of going to folk clubs to listen to such and such artists only to have to wade through a bunch on non-entities before I get to them.


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Subject: RE: Bogus Support Spots on Guest Nights
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM

Simple rules I follow:

1. I never ask for a floor spot at a club with a booked guest act unless I know the organisers and I've been told in advance that it's OK.

2. Where I want to do a singers' night floor spot at a club I've never been to before, I always contact the organisers in advance to see if it's OK and to find out the "form".

3. If a floor spot seems to have gone OK, I give my details to the organisers so that, if they want to have me as a support or a guest act, it's their choice. Sometimes this pays off with a booking - sometimes it doesn't.

4. I never advertise floor spots I've done.

If you're keen to get on the circuit, as it were, it can be a hard slog sometimes, so I can understand why people make more of themselves. But, as has already been said it's counterproductive, in the end, to be a bullshitter.


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