From Max: Mudcat Update

Subject: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM

The Forum SuperSearch is now up to date as of 7pm EST today, 11/11/2008. I haven't figured out how to get it to update regularly by itself yet, but it's a start.

Also, please don't forget to do your holiday shopping through http://amazon.mudcat.org. All the same products at all the same prices but the mudcat gets a cut. Every year, our revenue from this source in Dec & Jan is a significant sum for our yearly budget. Thanks a million.

I am self employed again, so that means I can spend more time working on the mudcat(in theory). In addition to making improvements to the site, adding features and solving problems, I will also be doing a few things that I hope will generate some more revenue. Please bear with me and don't hesitate to complain about anything that doesn't feel right to you. If I get feedback that any of my efforts go too far or changes the good nature of the site, I will remove them immediately.

I've also had the pleasure to be staying home with my kids and new beagle puppy Merle for the last several months. I've never worked so hard in all my life. Lily is now almost 6, Bodhi just turned 2 and Merle is about 6 months. The experience has got me to a point that makes me unwilling to do anything less that what I aspire to be. The last 7 years has been a treadmill, a lot of sweating and I'm right where I started from. No more.

The reason I tell you all this is that the mudcat, all it contains, all of the people I have met and all things I've learned turns out to be one of the most important things I've done and have. I've always wanted to do more. I've always wanted it to be my full time job.

How do you make a small fortune in Folk Music? Start with a large one.

I'm under no illusion, but it has become clear to me that the things I want to spend my time on need to help pay the bills. Or rather, I end up spending my time on the things that pay my bills. Either way, I think you can see my point.

All that being said, I intend to stand by all of my previous beliefs and not sell crap or charge you anything for anything you've ever gotten for free or plaster the site in ads. We get a lot of traffic, a lot of members and we have a lot of good content. The net has come a long way since we started, and there are many wonderful tricks and trades that a site like ours can take advantage of. Just like http://amazon.mudcat.org, the mudcat can find a way to take a cut of products and services at their normal prices, I just need to facilitate the process. I have a million ideas.

katlaughing had the idea to sell a CD of your own personal backup of your interaction with the mudcat. All the messages you've ever posted, every thread you've ever posted to, every personal message you've ever sent or received and a copy of the DT. Any interest?

We also happen to have some very talented members. By my count, 22,000 talented people. 22,000 that want their music heard and want to hear music. We have produced several CDs and I hope to produce several per year moving forward.

You get my drift. Time to kick it up a notch, on every level. You tell me what you want, and I'll provide it. And you have my guarantee that every money making endeavor will be preceded by an improvement to the mudcat, and I'll demand that you hold me to that.

Max

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:29 PM

YeeHaw!!!! Well done, Max!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:30 PM

Such good timing, Max! We're treading a bit of water here, but still, I've been sorting through a few things to list in the Mudcat auction in time for the holiday season. I'm glad to be of assistance a little bit (and redistribution is a great way to support the 'cat).

Self-employed these days is quite a somber euphemism. I hope things go well and that an employer helps kick into the family coffers soon.

The Mudcat is great, it's running better than ever, and those of us who have been around for a while have maybe not stepped up as often as we could to say so. But what would we do without it? For many of us, it is our social networking, forget about Facebook or My Space.

Thanks for all that you do!

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,e
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:33 PM

Max - it is time flush.

Remember - there are several floaters in every turd-bowl...sometimes you need to flush twice to kill the krawling kritters.

GIVE the USA a MUSICAL THREAD - that is MUSIC and not UK club gigs and UK poofters.

It is time for a THIRD LEVEL (beyound the above and below line WHICH IS a VERY WELCOME divisiion) something that is

AMERICAN (continent)
MUSIC
FOLK/BLUE/JAZZ

Your clones NEED a little more guidelines than flushing out threads from their most hated GUESTS....because their personal, individual feelings were "hurt."

WHY do 3 hours of research and have the contribution refused?

Sincerely,
G.

Do not dare to post nomulter' - Tuesday and Thursday things tend to get through.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:34 PM

CRAP!!!

Pussy Whipped Again!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:37 PM

Woodpussy whipped.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:38 PM

Well Max it is good to hear from you. I have been here about 5 years more or less and have made friends all over the world. Have met about 30 in person and some have become very good friends. So thank you.

My only thought at the moment for improvement is in the section of "Member Photo and Info". I already went through a session with Joe and my intention is not to have this happen again. But if this sector is not available to all members than don't you think it should be taken out and redirected to the site where folks can go to? There are some members who just maybe would like to keep all things on Mudcat on Mudcat and not spread out on other sites.
Just a thought.
I will now wait for the shit to hit the fan.
Adrien

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:44 PM

Gargoyle, if you spend three hours researching something musical and it gets deleted, contact me by e-mail and we'll work something out. But hey, I've seen dozens of your deleted messages, and haven't seen music or three hours of research in any of the deleted ones.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM

Beer, great, great idea. I see a yes/no question in the membership profile/info that determines if a user's link leads to either an existing site or their mudcat profile.

I will begin work on that right off.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:50 PM

Geeziz Greg....Always nice to see you so early in a thread!

Max---Whatever helps my friend. I'm around to do whatever I can for this joint and if its a good idea for you and I can help, I'm available. Maybe I could pass the hat while I kick you in the balls......I dunno'. Catholic churches used to raffle off cars until the Buick dealers got pissed and raffled off a 1947 Catholic church. Maybe we could raffle off Joe or Garg or both. You missed great a opporunity to win big when we didn't bet on this year's PSU/OSU game!

Seriously though..........Let's raffle off Joe.

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:50 PM

OK - Max -we understand who is on the throne tonight.

A previous posting has been removed

ADD a THIRD LEVEL -
AMERICAN
NO Brit/SH!T
MUSIC

Do you want to incorporate - or stay private? Go public or remain independant?
Post a prospectus!
LafKat is always good for more than a fur-ball...why pay a harvester when the gleening is free.
HOW MUCH Money do you NEED?????

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: WyoWoman
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:53 PM

Hey there --

I don't know what your ideas for generating revenue are, but I say, power to you. A person has to make a living and I don't think you signed on to be a Mudcat Missionary forever, so ... do what you need to do to have a profession doing what you love. We'll come along -- and them what doesn't, well ...

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:58 PM

Message Undeleted. Attention Vols. Only I will delete messages in this thread, and from now on, every thread I participate in. If you see me post, hands off.

Get this right. I don't need money. I want all contributions stopped. That's the point. I shouldn't need handouts. All I need to do is get off my butt and apply the things people hire me to do for them, and do it for me... on this site. I was stupid and asleep, now I'm awake, and am pursuing an idea that I currently think is slightly less stupid.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:58 PM

Another Point.

I am willing to keep an eye on up coming birthdays and start a thread on the member. What happens now is if you don't go to that section then a member who has entered his/her birth date is not mentioned in any thread. I find this to be very sad. All members who have entered their birth date would like to be wished a "Happy Birthday". I may not be here to keep tabs all the time, but I would get a member to help when I'm away.
Adrien
Adrien

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:00 PM

Hmmmm.....Raffling off Joe is sounding better all the time.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM

Spaw:

If you're going to raffle off Joe it will be a lot easier if you throw in a 1947 Catholic Church AND a Buick.



A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mary Katherine
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:24 PM

Could somebody explain to me how the auction process works? If I have something I want to auction off, and give part of the proceeds to the Mudcat, exactly what are the steps to take? PM is fine if this isn't of general interest. Thanks!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:25 PM

You know I am with you on this, buddy. Let me know what you need from me. Want me to handle auctioning off my podnuh, Mr. Offer? I am not sure that is a good idea, but mebbe if we throw in Spaw, it might generate some revenue? That, of course, would leave the lead couch at Lane, Fielding, Patterson and Swan, layabouts at large and for hire, open. I am feeling the need to layabout a bit more.......

But seriously, you sure picked a helluva time to do this. Economy in the toilet, retail going to hell..... LOL. What the hell, I'm all in with you.

All the best, and waiting for instruction,

Mick

P.S. You didn't tell me you had a 6 month old beagle pup at your joint. Peter T and I would have made a detour to see the kids and the noble pup. These critters are quite simply the finest buddies that kids will ever have. I love it when they sit there with their head cocked, ears slightly perked, and tail wagging slowly. Since I am skilled in Beagle-ese I will translate. It means, "I am going to turn this place into a car wash and there ain't a thing you can do to stop my adorable little fuzzy ass". I love these dogs.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Steve in Idaho
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:26 PM

Hi Max - good to "See" you - been 3-4 years -

Enjoy your children. They go away way too soon.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:31 PM

Hi, Mary Katherine -
Putting something in the auction is almost as easy as starting a thread. Just go to the Auction page and select "Add Item to Auction." If you need help, I'm around. katlaughing is also very experienced in auction matters.
Oh, and I guess I ought to say that I have very nice teeth because of a lot of orthodontic work, bedroom blue eyes, and a stunning personality. My defects are a slight paunch, a large bald spot on the top of my head, and a tendency to be clueless (well, I call it "innocence").
-Joe-

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:31 PM

Now that so much music is up on UTube (and other places) it would be great to have a sidebar where folks could post links involving Mudcatters, artists and songs that are being discussed, or whatever is interesting.

Also, I've always thought that a multinational calendar, with schedules for folk clubs, performers, open mikes, jams, tours for artists, etc was much needed.

It also occurs to me that there ought to be a Mudwiki, or some such thing, with entries that are distilled from the many, many, amazing discussions that we've had.

And then, of course, with the advent of the trusty Edirol R-9, and the Zoom and such devices, it would be possible to have a sound archive of the various sessions that our Mudcat brood frequent. It would be a hoot and a half to be able to sit at home the morning after and play along with a sound file of a session.

For years, most of the online contact that we've had with one another has been in discussions of one kind or another--after a while, you kind of forget that a lot of people are crackerjack musicians--now, the technology is here that allows us to share the music--and about time, since after about ten years of online chatting, I've repeated myself a lot;-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 11:53 PM

Max, Mudcat is a marvel and a model that some other sites could follow and benefit from. I seem to recall a discussion in years past of your being asked to use your skills to help others develop their site software. If you do that for income while letting Mudcat help fund itself it wouldn't be a bad thing. You have done so much--there are few who would protest that you need to "get off your butt" for anything. Those of us who have bonded with Mudcat do mightily appreciate the technological advances as they come along, but we loved it before, also.

It has run so smoothly lately that it is too easy to forget that this is an operation running out of your dining room, or den, or wherever you have the server set up now. Contributing to place that is loved and admired is a good thing for members. Like PBS and NPR, if we have an interest in keeping it going, we should contribute. It's only fair.

I have another Ellis Island Immigrant Cookbook I have been saving to sell now, since it is such a good holiday gift. Just ask those who have already bought them through the auction. I'll probably list that tomorrow or the next day, to spread these auctions out a little.

I still think you should incorporate, but we've discussed that before also. Good luck, and keep doing what you love to do--that is the best thing, no matter what else happens.

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:02 AM

Great sentiments, folks, but I think we all need to reread Max's post. While I share them, Max is taking a more direct role and is going to run the place more on a business model. I would expect that he will maintain the essential character, and day to day you will see little change. I would guess he will play a stronger "behind the scenes" role, and will utilize the strategies available to a site that is getting the number of hits we get in a day.

So, sit back, enjoy the ride, and let's follow his lead. He is telling you that you don't have to fret and send off donations. Just be sure that when you are online shopping, especially during this season, you always come through the mudcat. Drop me a line if you don't know how and I will give you a hand.

Mick the Muderator

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:26 AM

Mary Katherine, HERE is a guide I wrote up for the auction. If you have any questions or need help with it, please holler.

Folks, don't forget, for new babies and such, you can still buy the Mudcat children's CD and also, don't forget those great and now historical Mudcat Blue Plate CDs on THIS PAGE. I say, historical because some of the people on them have passed on and also because they were done a few years ago when we were more in our "infancy" both on Mudcat and the internet itself. Heck there wasn't a youtube, myspace, or facebook back then!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:26 AM

Historical??? Hey!! They're as up to the minute as Bar'bry Ellen!!

Find out all about those Mudcat CDs right here and send an order to Dick today!! You will be glad you did!! They have pleased every ear and gentled every heart with which they have come in contact, healed wounded souls, repaired meaningless lives and given new zest to tired relationships. They are reported to have improved musical acuity, enhanced self-esteem and done wonders for the warm spark of human affinity wherever they have been played!! Get yours today!!!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:40 AM

I like Mudcat not having a bunch of frilly gadgets.
Gadgety sites are slow-loaders on my (dial-up) connection.

An audio archive would be great..especially if it was open to copies of old recordings. Vicarious participation in catter gatherings would be fun--but if we could pull the dusty old tapes of grandpa singing songs he learned from his grandfather, it could turn into a fascinating Field Collection type knock-off.

If there's any consideration of adding video, I think Tutorials would be an excellent resource.

With initial submissions limited to your First Generation Members, it wouldn't be hard to set standards and guidelines to sort of guide the archive/tutorials in an appropriate direction.


Thank you, Max.
This is a lovely (and useful!) creation.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:09 AM

Hi Max

There are 2 things that I would love to see on Mudcat.

The first one would be to have the ability to edit your own posts. How often have we posted something and afterwards wished we had the chance to correct what we have said. It may be because of spelling errors or simply that we have not structured our comments very well and people then take the comments the wrong way. Sometimes it may be that we have regretted posting on a thread and wish we could remove the post.

The second is more about being informative about a thread. It would be nice to be able to see not only how many posts have been made on a thread, but how many times it has been viewed.

Both of the above may be simple or difficult to implement, but if it would be simple to implement, I think it would help considerably.

Many thanks
Les Worrall

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:54 AM

Thanks for all this Max.
keith.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:00 AM

> to have the ability to edit your own posts

YESSSSSSSS - please!!!

Is there any way you can also organise getting a cut from the British Amazon site http://www.amazon.co.uk ? A lot of us on this side of the pond don't use the American one, not just because of the currency exchange but also prohibitive overseas shipping charges. I've spent a fortune on British Amazon and I'd sure like to see Mudcat get a piece of that. If you can tap into some sales outlet(s) that operate in pounds or euro and ship from Britain/Europe, it would probably fatten the kitty nicely. If I could buy in the UK or Ireland for pounds or euro, I would always use a Mudcat-feeding outlet where it existed.

I also think M. Ted's YouTube-sidebar is brilliant, ditto Melissa's audio-archive suggestion.

Small private point: How do I get my private email into the Member's Listings? I've contacted the relevant party ages ago but nothing happened. Address is just my name as it appears above, no dots or spaces, {at} g m a i l {dot} c o m - if someone can sort that out I'd be grateful.

From the bottom of my fuzzy little heart, THANK YOU Max for all your dedicated work and the sincerity of your commitment. You are an invaluable addition to the internet.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:14 AM

Max, I sent ya a PM.

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:09 AM

Max - the mudcash raising link to Amazon is good, but it links to the U.S. company. There are a lot of regulars who are in other parts of the globe who might not find what they want there (e.g. DVDs with US/Canada region code may not play on a European DVD player).If you also had a similar link through amazon.co.uk it might bring in cash via the UKers.

Perhaps it is also the time to review the Musical/BS sections question, particularly in the light of recent changes in rules about guests starting threads. There are certain categories of thread which, although obviously not music/song, are more useful than pure BS, which some members do not even consider reading. Maybe you could consider a third division, covering specific types of topic - sensible but not specifically music. Perhaps things such as festivals and events, mudcatters organising trips abroad, help tracking down old folkies, maybe birthdays and obituaries. A method of keeping useful social folk information in one place, and not lost in the creative writing, sport and politics below the current line. Something which the "serious music" mudcatters would not simply block from their browsing.

Anyway, keep up the good work!
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.
p.s. we can maybe afford a couple of pounds auction bid on Spaw, but could only afford shipping about half way across the atlantic. They would have to leave him there until we saved up for the rest... ;@)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:10 AM

Hmm. "It would be great to have a sidebar where folks could post links," but some features prove great only for folk with up-to-date software. Using an original iMac (same age as my grade 5 son, it's outlasted a couple of younger second-hand laptops) I'm acutely aware that not all web pages display correctly on the old browsers I can run.

Would links in a sidebar be easier, or harder for blind readers to see and use through a screen reader? I dunno.


Max, good luck making money with commercial partnerships and other ideas, but why would you "want all contributions stopped"?

Voluntary contributions to maintain a service we value should be seen as payment, not gift. Call 'em subscriptions (maybe no set amount, Mudcat names listed but amounts not announced unless subscriber asks to list it in a "match thi$" section)? User support is the purest (though not the most lucrative) way to keep up this amazing place you've created. It makes the 'Cat more independent. I only wish it would cover the whole cost.

To free your energy for Mudcat, something's got to provide for your household. Not even a tree works for nothing: it gets a living from what it does, turning air and water and sunlight into wood, leaves, fruit, shade, shelter, and ultimately soil richer than the soil in which it began. It does great work, but if it can't make a living there, we don't get a tree. If we want trees about, or fish in rivers, or earthworms in soil, we've got to provide what's needed for them to make a living there. Same thing if we want a busker to make our corner of the world a more pleasant place to stop by, or you to put in some hours with your eyes on this screen instead of on your family (or some paying job) And what is more fair and fitting than allowing those who benefit from work to be the first to support it?

Thanks as always,
Maureen

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:45 AM

I feel a bit of a fraud giving my comments, being a relative newbie to the Mudcat community, but I'll simply add that:

1. I would welcome the opportunity to increase Mudcat working income by buying from Amazon UK - which I do regularly.

2. The opportunity to edit & delete my own posts would be welcomed. My old eyes and fingers are not what they used to be, and even the most carefully checked posts can have silly errors. I run a much smaller board than this elsewhere, and these facilities are really useful.

Will

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:55 AM

I too had wondered about the Amazon UK problem. I shop a lot on various Amazon sites (UK mostly, but America, France and Germany too - never Canada these days, I've only ever had problems there!). I do get a link on Amazon.com to the UK site (I'm guessing it might put that link up based on my IP address), so if it's only necessary to connect to Amazon via the Mudcat page I can use the link to get to the UK. But it would be nice to know that that keeps the Mudcat contribution. (Do you get a contribution still if I use Amazon sellers - which I do a lot, Caiman is probably my major source for CDs, they come from the States but at half the cost of the UK. Is it only necessary to use the Amazon site, rather than Amazon sales?)

I also agree about the facility to edit your own posts. I do use preview all the time, but sometimes you don't see things until you've submitted the post. A time-limited ability to edit would be good - maybe up to the time someone else posts to the thread (it needs limiting, otherwise you could go back and change something that made subsequent discussion look irrelevant to the original post!).

And Max, thanks for all the hard work and the site.

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM

Thanks a lot Max; it's always good to hear from you.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:09 AM

I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again: this is the best site on the Web for this kind of communication (even before you get to the people) because it is clean -- you pioneered this cleanness at a time when the Web was full of frilly crap -- Why did Google win? They kept what they were doing clean. Don't change that.

Also, to underline something, Max, you have changed people's lives for the better, you changed mine, and you changed the lives of people I love. You created a community, which in this kind of world is a jewel beyond price. Never, ever forget that.

Max Vobiscum

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

Good.

I'll read this thread more thoroughly later, but I am reminded of a good thought:

"Do what you love. The money will follow."

I think there was a book about this, but the statement is what's stuck with me over the years.

Dani

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Hi Max ! Good to see you getting back in the driving seat ! And I like Beagles too - Shame that you didnt get down to Getaway even for an afternoon trip with the Family (AND the Pup) !
Best of Luck .

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:15 AM

I will watch with interest, Max. How great that you figured this out while your children are young enough to enjoy you. Go for it.
SINS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

Could there be a "via Mudcat" link to CD Baby - that is, if they rebate?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM

Remember - there are several floaters in every turd-bowl...sometimes you need to flush twice to kill the krawling kritters

as it happens floaters signify a healthy diet. So more floaters the better.

Max has done a great job just providing the 'Cat. And as for deleted threads - maybe I am just not provocative enough to be so honoured. But if that is the case I am commfortable with that. Proud even.

Long live the 'Cat - whatever accent we talk in.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:34 AM

May I humbly suggest yet again that some -named- UK moderators, with power to delete posts and close threads, might make a huge difference in helping to keep us Brits in order?

At the moment only Joe seems to have that power and though he uses it very well, the time difference can trip up the system. Flames etc need to be fixed before the neck-biting starts.

I say 'seems' because authority has to be visible to be of any use, and Joe's is the only name I've seen that is clearly identified as such. Even after all these years I still don't really who else wears a Mudcat T-shirt. You know the the old maxim, 'speak softly and carry a big stick' - but the stick has to be visible.

Oh, and the link facility at the BBC site is great if you could replicate it somehow. Anything with http:// is automatically a link.

Here, in case you've never seen it

I really do believe that Mudcat has a really important role to play in the world of folk and related musics - so thanks again guys for all your hard work.

I hope you can think up some great money-spinning gigs and go from strength to strength

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:40 AM

The ability to edit ones own posts is a double edged sword. As some people may use it to their own ends. Re writing history is pretty popular in some circles.
You can always ask a clone to edit.
That's an Idea, a Members Only Help thread. Not like the open access one we had before which was much abused. You could post any edit requests in there, and whichever clone dealt with it, could then delete it, or mark it done, when the correction is made.


JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:55 AM

Sorry, I may have missed something that's obvious to the initiated here, but where to be found are posters personal profile pages??

If I click on the name of a poster, I get directed to a list of their posts, but no profile.

If there is such a feature and I've missed it, apologies, but if there isn't it'd be so much nicer to get a feel for an otherwise anonymous online ID, through whatever personal info, my-space or You-Tubey links and whatnot, that they wished to offer for general consumption.

As for posters editing their own posts, yeah, tis open to all kinds of misuse! Though I think posters being able to entirely delete their own posts is always a good thing, especially where the poster recognises that their 'contribution' was inapropriate or likely to cause further unecessary argument.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Cool Beans
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM

Thanks for all you do, Max. This is nearly my 1,000th posting (990-something)so obviously Mudcat means a lot to me. For instance...A few days ago I was trying to remember which Doc Watson album contained the song "(I Told Them) All About You." I went to Amazon.com and looked over every Doc Watson album they had. None had the song. So I Googled "Doc Watson" and "Whippoorwill," a significant word in the song. About the fifth entry down I found what I was looking for. It was a Mudcat posting which identified the album as "Doc & Dawg" by Watson and David Grisman. Here's the best part: It was my own posting, from 2005. Long live Mudcat, and thanks again, Max.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM

Here Rosie
You'll find lots of info under the headings along the top of that page, in blue. They are not all up to date though.
If you click on the drop down menu at the top of the main page, you will find lots of categories of information.

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:07 AM

If ideas come I'll forward them on, Max.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:41 AM

An appropriate title for a book I have just listed on the Auction Block "Our Bit". 100% goes to Mudcat.
Adrien

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:49 AM

I'm sure it's reasonable (and probably a technical necessity) to restrict the personal profile pages to members only, but as long as there is a policy of allowing non-members to post, while also not discouraging aliases, the 'shadow-boxing' mentality which runs through Mudcat like a chill banshee is likely to thrive.

If we all cast our minds back to those early days when we didn't know who (or what) anyone else was, I'm sure we'll all remember the confusion, tinged perhaps with a little fear that surrounded our early posting.

Personally I'm convinced that these twin but inherently contradictory policies - well-meaning though they are, and for all the excellent arguments behind them - are a major root cause the unpleasantness that so quickly turns good discussions bad.

If guests could read who everyone else is, they might feel more like joining. I certainly would (though I'd want more pro-active policing of bullying, deliberate misquoting for effect, and bad manners too).

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:39 AM

I am a joe clone. If anyone needs help with typos, etc. please send me a PM.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM

I think Tom is right, we could do with somebody in the UK for when we cock it up. Is ther anybody?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:13 AM

But who would you trust?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:25 AM

UK Amazon link is here: AmazonUk.mudcat.org

US Amazon link is here: amazon.mudcat.org.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:26 AM

We do have some UK moderators and are seeking another.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:27 AM

After what Nigel said, perhaps I shouldn't admit to anything.

¦¬]

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Cllr
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:59 AM

HI Max good to see this thread, will pm you.
Cllr

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:03 PM

You have UK mods? Like Joe? Surely these are 'secret'? I'm not talking about elves, is it? (sorry I've never got my head round the different roles/job titles here).

Obviously there are important tasks to be done behind the scenes - but I'm talking about a mod like Joe, who has 'moderator' in his sig and therefore speaks with an authority born of the knowledge that he can ban members, close threads, delete posts etc. (The others don't because we don't know who they are - or we forget because it's not in the sig).

Mostly, of course, he doesn't need to - a shot across the bows is usually enough. In fact just knowing that he's reading a thread has an instant calming effect on the debate.

This also happens on the BBC forum. There in fact are many faceless mods in the BBC factory, who don't post as themselves, but merely apply the rather draconian BBC House Rules. There are lots of things wrong with the BBC system - as others will testify - but the basic approach has merit, even though it's a little hamstrung by the need to confirm to the BBC Production Guide.

We also we have our host, Mel, who occupies the role played by Joe here. (Sometimes other hosts pop in too). Now, that site is nothing like as busy as Mudcat, and Mel - though extremely tactful and attentive - is not full time, so is unable to keep on top of everything which is one of the reasons they have a rather over-zealous mod system.

But if you had a handful of cool, polite, laid-back but empowered people here - volunteers who were willing to keep at one remove from the debate but who still chipped in regularly, who were KNOWN to have edit power, because it said so in their sig, I think you'd find a lot of nastiness could be avoided.

And because much of the brawling happens in the Eastern Atlantic Islands, it makes sense to have people who will be at their computers at the times when debate is likely to be hottest.

I get the impression that some Statesiders are at a loss to understand some of the behaviour emanating from this side of the pond. I think it's a cultural thing - we're used to tighter guidelines over here, and in the absence of them are more liable to loose our way - which is why sometimes it can look as though a small group of us could derail the whole project.

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:08 PM

Guest - Tom Bliss and Villan - I seem to recall from a thread a couple of years ago, that there are reasons for Joeclones not being named. One being that the type of poster who has their comments deleted for being offensive is the type of poster who might also be inclined to be vindictive and target the person who deleted the posting.
That said,on occasion it has seemed as if unidentified clones have tampered with threads for personal reasons rather than for the good of Mudcat. Whether this was true or not, we will probably never know.
As for UK Mudelves. I know there are some, but don't know how many, or who.
I you need a serious typing mess cleared up, it sometimes works to ask in the same thread for an elf to sort it out. Also, if, as a non member,you need more detailed or off the record discussion of something specific, Joe can be contacted by e-mail at mudcat dot org.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:09 PM

There are UK Mods Tom.

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

Thanks for those clarifications Geoff and John. But I am none the wiser - which is my whole point.

What is the difference between an elf and a clone? Is there any?

I've never seen anyone apart from Joe be routinely identified as a Mudcat Official.

I'm not, myself, in favour of self-editing facilities. It can make a mess of a thread and lead to sloppiness. Knowing you can't edit makes one a bit more careful - and who cares about the odd typo (as a major dyslexic my posts are full of missing and duplicated words, but I just think it makes me look cute)!

If you drop a bollock you can always post a correction straight after - it's not a problem.

And if there are invisible people who can fix any serious errors that's all to the good. (Though if unidentified clones tamper with threads for personal reasons that's not, obviously).

And it's good to be able to contact Joe by email too- as I often have.

But none of these address my point; that you need a number of named 'prefects' in a forum like this, not just one.

Mods/clones/elves/beavers/mudlarks - whatever you want to call them, they need to be willing to speak out as themselves but from a position of known authority. Yes, they will make occasional mistakes, but this will be in a spirit of transparency.

It is the lack of this - and all that flows from it, including the problems I've mentioned above an often in toehr threads over the years - that prevents me from joining Mudcat, and causes me to continue to agitate for change, in public as well as in private to Joe as he would prefer.

Call me old-fashioned, but i like my policemen to wear a uniform, and a big friendly smile

Tom (Tom the Copper's son)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

>>Call me old-fashioned, but i like my policemen to wear a uniform, and a big friendly smile<<

Sounds like the start of a new song Tom.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

A little bit of history: Way back when Max had an office and dot com company the "elves" were his employees who helped to produce Mudcat radio with video and helped with keeping the place online, etc.

When Max asked a few of us to assist Joe in moderating, we became known as the "joe clones." Some of us have been public about it and may now regret that or not, while others have stayed private about who they are. If I had thought about it, I would have asked for a separate identity as a clone, and kept katlaughing for joining in the fun. I still do that, too, but I am convinced it would have been better to have the two separate, as I've noted others do on other boards. Just my opinion.

FWIW, I don't like the idea of wholesale editing...it could change the complete tone of the place; right now, it's warts and all and and I love it that way. It's such a piece of personal history for so many of us; it'd be a shame if suddenly it could all be edited out/rewritten/etc.

I am happy to help folks out; it works esp. well if someone posts a corrected version of whatever they posted before and think is messed up and asks in the thread for the earlier version to be deleted. PMs work, too.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:48 PM

An idea for generating income right on this site is to sell members' mp3s with Mudcat getting a cut. See eFolkmusic.org for an example. So many mudcatters are musicians and have music available for sale. Not all of it is available at Amazon, but could be available on mudcat to each other as well as to the public. This would be good for members and good for the 'cat.

Imagine researching a particular song, finding various mp3's available right here, buying it online from mudcat and then discussing it in a thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

I am not a frequent poster on this forum but I would like to say that I am not a great fan of being able to edit a post. It can be a little confusing. If you need to correct something in a post just send another post.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:53 PM

GREAT IDEA, Barbara!!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:05 PM

Thanks for that explanation Kat, but you don't say what the difference is between a JoeClone and a MudElf.

I'd prefer there to be more Joes, not JoeClones, with their roles clearly on view in their sig.

Back-room mods are fine - you're always going to need them too. (Better/safer to come clean, I think, but entirely understandable - in fact I've proposed the two name solution myself in the past). But that's not the same as your sig saying 'Katlaughing - Mudcat Moderator' so every passing guest knows that you have this extra power and treats any diplomatic comments you may make with due deference.

I'm not in favour of wholesale editing either. I'd like to see a lot more warning shots though, and I'd like threads like the Mental Illness one stopped as soon as they cross the line. If the discussion can be steered away from danger with a firm word, so much the better. If not then offensive or bullying posts should be deleted before they can hurt someone - something that does not happen here anything like enough in my opinion. Closing a thread would still be the last-but-one resort as now, and deleting a thread the ultimate sanction - again as now. (I wouldn't have closed that tread but left it on view myself, though. Defamatory stuff should just be erased, and if you won't erase single posts you should really erase the whole thing).

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM

Sorry Kat, I meant to pick up on your warts and all comment.

Are you in the US or UK or somewhere else?

Warts and all is all very well, but when it comes to bullying it's not good enough, and that's just a gradual and welcome cultural change we're going through in this country anyway.

I think the Mudcat philosophy is a wonderful thing, but could there not come a time when this site's influence could reach a point where its power and visibility might demand a slightly more responsible approach?

In the UK, anyway, we have a massive challenge trying to drill some holes in the silo to let this wonderful music flow back into the streams where it belongs. That's a task that artists, promoters, singers, players, writers, club committees, folk organisations and webmasters all face. As Joe will confirm, there have been times when I've started to worry that we, here, could become part of the problem rather part of the solution.

I'm looking ahead, now - not sniping. But as Max has accidentally given me this platform I can't help raising it, because I do think it's really important.

Sorry and all that


Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: ClaireBear
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:28 PM

I'm not sure how I feel about self-editing, but just because I am an editor in my day job, a thought occurred to me:

I wonder if it might be possible to enable self-editing in revision mode -- with crossouts and insertions -- such that the "warts and all" atmosphere stays more-or-less intact and nobody gets to be a revisionist, but posters have an opportunity to demonstrate changes of heart, correct belatedly spotted typos, etc.

If that's even possible with the input technology we're using...

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM

Folks, all you have to do to edit is to take a moment, and check the "Preview" box before you send it. Sometimes it pays to write it in Notepad or Word, and then walk away from it and come back. Or you can just preview it for typo's before you send. You already have what you want, but many just don't use it, and then want edit it after its posted instead of proofing it before.

Even if you make an error and you want it corrected, all you have to do is drop me a line, or Joe, or any of the elves, and we will usually fix it. Feel free to PM me anytime you need a hand. But do get in the habit of using the Preview button...... please?

All the best,

Mick the Muderator

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

That's a very good idea Claire

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Melissa
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:46 PM

I do not the part where a poster who has been pounced in an obvious rude/hateful manner is supposed to contact Joe to let him know it's offensive to them.

Name-calling is obvious and so are a lot of other insults.
Sending a pm to Joe feels like tattling..and tattling can tend to bring more hateful behavior toward the 'whiner' in the future.

Maybe if Joe (or other moderator)sees posts that seem offensive, they could contact the person who has been slammed, but I think behavior would improve dramatically with a more consistent policy that covers all of us equally without requiring us to tattle.

Joe has a big job and some of the things that pop up occasionally are no doubt hair-pullingly overwhelming..because they're a tangle with no clear outline.
I think Joe's task would get easier if he could sort of slowly ease out of being our Babysitter and become more of a Defender.

Most of us want peaceful, pleasant interaction.
Some of us are intimidated by fangs and poison..
All of us are capable of behaving appropriately.

Sorry for the rambly post.
I think what I'm saying is that it would be nice to see a shift from "Do Not Feed the Trolls" to trolls and troublemakers being kept from eating us. If I'm not a troll, I'm not sure it's reasonable to make me responsible for them.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,one clone
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

Tom, there is no real difference between 'mud-elf' and a 'Joe clone' or a 'volunteer'. They are just various names people have used. There ARE, though, a couple levels of ability to do editing.
   Joe & Big Mick are co-moderators, with all relevant powers. Maybe 1-2 others can do significant other editing. And a larger group, like myself, can do minimal editing, like correcting spelling or fixing a link, or emergency deleting of spam.
   I gather that some, like katlaughing notes, do it fairly openly, while others prefer to not confuse their editing ability with their freedom to participate in threads without getting complaints.
   In the past, we had a couple of members who spent a large amount of time making a huge issue of anonymity, and there was much uproar.

As suggested above, it might be useful to have moderators have 2 IDs, but it is already a bit late for that.

There is no simple answer to the question, as people just have different opinions. Max has seen fit to leave the system as it is for now. It works pretty well so far, and Joe & Mick keep good track of problems. Remember, they and other 'clones' are all volunteers who do this in spare time. Not everything can be dealt with instantly, but an email or PM to Joe or Mick gets pretty good results. Even a post IN a thread can get the attention of a minor clone/elf/volunteer.

If Max has new ideas on how to improve it all, I imagine we'll soon know.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM

So why is Joe identified and Big Mick not, then?

That's the kind of thing that makes my blood run cold, you see? I'm actually shivering at the thought of these two being equal - when I had Mick in a totally different box.

Thanks Melissa, that's something else I feel strongly. Writing to Joe feels like a displacement activity. Far better for someone to beg for fair play within the discussion. This happens a lot, thankfully, but sometimes it just adds to the turmoil. That's when the mod needs to step in and just say cool it. Mel does it brilliantly - as does Joe when he's not sleeping!

I agree it's a thankless task, and it has to be done with a really light hand on the tiller.

I believe that by having more known mods will reduce the need for intervention in the first place, and make it much more benign when it does prove necessary.

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:07 PM

Hi, Tom...Mick HAS been identified in many places. It is no secret, though he does not mention it in every post, but only when relevant. Same with a couple of the others.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,two clone
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

Sorry Tom, but it is also true, that known clones would be restrictive, on those clones.
It would mean that a contentious post by a known clone could be misinterpreted as being Mudcat policy.
There is also the personality clash factor, when a known clone has upset another member, then they might be sending PM's to Max or Big Mick, or katlaughing, or any one of about 10 other clones. Or worse still sending complaints to ALL clones, because they can. Once they've been given identities to contact.
Sorry but if you want a list, then it would have to be under aliases, otherwise it could make life difficult.
Don't forget these people are volunteers.
Sorry, but those are all factors to be considered.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM

It would be a good little trick -- maybe you can already do it? -- if there was a way of mass deleting personal messages. Some web sites have a place where you can check off all the messages you want deleted, and not those you don't, and then press a delete button. I don't know if space is of any concern any more these days, but I do feel a bit guilty having hundreds of messages sitting around in my personal box that I don't want any more, but am too lazy to get rid of.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:52 PM

The form of our nascent "organization" is appropriate to the informality of the actual environment here. And, much more important, it has evolved on the dynamic of what works for Max, with th eminimal burden on those who are volunteering their efforts. It is not more structured--with identfied posts and hats and functional boxes -- because it is dedicated to the fire, wind and slurry of real life, with just enough form to keep the channel open.

A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:55 PM

Peter...you can delete- or even 'archive' PMs en masse. Archiving doesn't delete them, but merely keeps the visible list down to managable size.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

(You do have to check the boxes, but you can do dozens in a very short time)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MMario
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:03 PM

but I think behavior would improve dramatically with a more consistent policy that covers all of us equally without requiring us to tattle

The problem with this is that without going to something along the lines of moderated posting (nothing posts without a moderator seeing it) it's hard even for a large group of moderators to read EVERY post. I have a yahoo group of just over 2000 members - and I don't read every post there....I doubt if there is anybody here who reads EVERY post. I strtongly suspect that you could pick out any TEN members of mudcat and not cover every message.

Plus - what is perfectly acceptable language and behavior between some people is unacceptable to others.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:04 PM

I agree that it would be restrictive on clones. It would be a very difficult and responsible job - but a necessary one if you want to have a successful, vibrant but benign website in the future that might raise a bit of dosh for Max.

That's why I'm not suggesting that existing clones should be outed. But rather that new volunteers should be sought (from among the existing elves if they so chose) to share Joe's burden. Not many - two would halve Joe's work and double his efficiency (if this side of the pond). A handful would probably suffice - along with all the existing anonymous drones of course. Maybe it would be a good idea to have areas of expertise too so they'd be browsing different areas of the site.

The solution to the complaints system is simple. Ditch the PM method and have a 'complain about this post' button, like the BBC one. That goes to a central list and is picked off by the next mod that drops in - back-room ones included.

As for mods upsetting members, well it happens. But being Out - like Joe is, and in fact like all of us are who are artists with careers and reputations to think of - acts as a wonderful stay of the hand. Why should a need to be tactful and polite be seen as a limiting factor?

I'm sorry but the fact that Mick and others have been identified at times is dangerously irrelevant. That is a view from inside the mirrored ball - the view of a long-term initiate. You need to remember that people who've perhaps read these things will soon forget (who has time to remember which members are elves? I don't), and a much bigger number will never even have read it - specially new arrivals, and guests, and who knows how many casual or long-term lurkers.

If no-one was identified it might be different - though the dichotomy between the freewheelin' approach to free speech and the opaque moderation system would be even more uncomfortable than it is now. But Joe IS identified - and that adds even more subliminal confusion to the mix.

Remember that first impressions stick, and the clear impression given is that Mudcat is largely unmoderated. I'm sure that sets some users off down a road which they'd perhaps not travel on other folk forums that are less hands-free anyway.

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:19 PM

It's up to the individual volunteer if they want to be identified. Speaking from experience, it is difficult to enjoy the forum the same way when everyone sees you as an authority or even having different abilities than the others.

I personally recommend that those that are anonymous stay that way, though they can do what they want, just as all of you ultimately can.

I also don't think that authority is the proper way to get folks to behave themselves. I believe that a community naturally governs itself with a set of norms. Like a schoolyard, if you're an asshole, you won't have many friends, you won't have much fun, and you won't want to hang out in the schoolyard anymore.

I've been on the net a long time and participated in many many online forums and communities. You have to understand that this place hums along rather smoothly compared to most. It's understandable to always want things better, but please take a moment to notice how good it already is.

Ideally, if we have enough Vols, and the community reacts to abuse in a mature way, no one will have report a problem to a Vol, a Vol will see it because they are participating in the community. These Vols don't moderate for fun, they participate in the community and just happen to have extra abilities because I know them well enough, and their peers know them well enough to handle, discuss and debate issues that arise. You don't have to have authority over a friend to stop them from, say, drunk driving, and I believe that holds true here.

The volunteers we have now were chosen based on several years of personal relationships, and not chosen only on their own merits, but by how they add to the group that is the Vols. I alway try to keep a well rounded group of people who compliment (or counter) the others' personalities and beliefs so that the group ends up a microcosm of all the members of the mudcat. Currently, as we have evolved, we have leaned toward the UK, so we need to lean our Vols to the UK and make an addition to our team.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,one clone
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:22 PM

Tom, if you were a registered member, you could see a feature called "messages since last visit". It allows all members to follow posts in order and clones often look at this to browse recent posts and identify possible problems without opening every thread and trying to browse them.

Be assured, all of these issues have been discussed at interminable length for years, and it is calmer right now than at many times in the past, due to Joe & Mick's policy of not allowing anonymous BS posts.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM

With regard to Sleepy Rosie's question about Members Info , this does not seem to have been updated for a LONG time -NO this is NOT really a moan , just a comment - I am well aware that the guy who used to look after it has had other priorites . BUT it IS nice to hang a face and location on a Cat handle !

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM

Thanks for that Max - I nearly used the schoolyard metaphor myself then decided not to, because actually Mudcat can be rather like a schoolyard sometimes - and maybe that's not such a good thing. Maybe you guys have a different view of folk music in the States to us over here. Your folk is all nicely bedded in with your other similar genres, and traffic flows both ways without problems. We don't have that luxury in the UK - specially in England. We're at something of a crisis point here - fighting a rear-guard action for our music against media indifference, government meddling, demographic inevitability and a host of other challenges. The flow of nutrients from the roots of our own indigenous music was holed below the soil forty years ago (partly because of US imports it has to be said), we've had a battering since, and now we're going through another rocky patch - specially with the folk club movement. The rough-housing that sometimes goes on on this website does nothing to help those of us who are desperately trying to 'market' folk music outside of our little clique. This is all the more tragic because Mudcat could be massively useful if you/we could point it in the right direction and make it more inclusive. I know you guys think we eat our babies over here - but that's just a dozen people giving the rest of us a bad name. But you seem happy to let that situation persist in the interests of natural self-governance. Well it's a fine ideal, but i for one don't think it's working - not from where I'm standing anyway. I don't expect you to understand because you've no experience of how things are over here, so why should you be interested? But you have made this thing, and it IS over here, and it IS having an influence. Mudcat is routinely derided on other more 'serious' forums, which is a real tragedy in my opinion, because what you have here has real potential to make a difference - as well as earn you a modest living too.

Sorry if that seems insulting - I have great respect for what you've made, and wish you all the very best with it.

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM

Joe is the public face of Mudcat for a very good reason. He takes a minimalist approach to moderating, does not allow his personal likes/dislikes get in the way of his duties as a mod, and gives everyone a person they can direct their concerns to. I am sorry that Tom didn't realize that I am a co-moderator, as I have not made a secret of it. If there is someone that is more comfortable contacting me, or if you can't reach Joe, please feel free. But Joe and I talk things through a lot, and our focus is to make sure the place stays a site where creative anarchy can flow as Max intended from the start. The only restrictions we place on that are those designed to stop folks whose main goal is to manipulate, and be nasty. As always, Max is the ultimate authority in all matters. He made it, he kept it going through thick, thin, kids, marriage, and a beagle puppy (the most daunting task of all), and our goal is to make it what he wants it to be.

It seems to me though that we shouldn't let this thread get steered away from one of its central tenets. We are coming onto the season where we all do a lot of shopping. Like it or not, for this to work for Max, he needs to be able to have it produce income. He isn't asking for handouts, he is asking that you direct your e-commerce towards this place you all care about. I am restating this so that we all plant it firmly in our minds.

And remember, if there is something you want that you don't think you can get through Mudcat, drop Max, Joe, or I a PM and let us see if we can find a source from which Mudcat Cafe' can derive some income.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:26 PM

Personall, I'm hard put to see how Mudcat could be more inclusive. What's being kept out?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:35 PM

Thanks Mick - I agree with what you say about Joe. I've been impressed by just those qualities myself. But can you not see what signals your semi-transparent semi-detatched policy is sending out, specially to new arrivals, and the way it affects behaviour here? If you are co-moderator it should be clear from the outset to all. To do otherwise is to invite suspicion. Web culture is not static, perceptions and mores change and if you want to develop a revenue stream you may want to consider thinking laterally.

Having spent a lot of time grappling with just the challenges Max is considering I wish you all the best of luck. There are ways of making money from this, but you'll have to fight the guys who came down to the beach before breakfast!

Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,TB
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

Dick - 'what's being kept out' is all the people who visit Mudcat purely for the shadenfreude but wouldn't dream of posting, all those who visit for a while then leave again in disgust at the entrenched views, factional in-fighting and inverse snobbery, all those who'd love to take part but dare not for fear of being ridiculed for a spelling error or using 'bad' grammar. Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:49 PM

So what do people think of my idea mentioned above?

An idea for generating income right on this site is to sell members' mp3s with Mudcat getting a cut. See eFolkmusic.org for an example. So many mudcatters are musicians and have music available for sale. Not all of it is available at Amazon, but could be available on mudcat to each other as well as to the public. This would be good for members and good for the 'cat.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

Beagle puppy? So that's where all the missing threads went....

Regards

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM

Barbara wrote: So what do people think of my idea mentioned above?

Like Kat, I think it's a great idea, though I don't know the practical ins-&-outs of the admin it would involve (payments, monitoring etc). But it's a brilliant suggestion - I'd love to see it happen!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:06 PM

'what's being kept out' is all the people who visit Mudcat purely for the shadenfreude but wouldn't dream of posting, all those who visit for a while then leave again in disgust at the entrenched views, factional in-fighting and inverse snobbery, all those who'd love to take part but dare not for fear of being ridiculed for a spelling error or using 'bad' grammar.

Well, I am a bit of a bumpkin in these matters. I have no idea how to count the people who come for schadenfreude, and while there have been plenty who have come and gone, that is also true of most towns and cities, and I have no idea what their motivations have been at one time or another. The quality of this community has a core consistency even though the noise level does go high and low at different periods. Except for a small handfull of dedicated nutballs, I have not seen anything that makes the ambience so toxic that a reasonably abled, mature human couldn't handle it easily enough.

There are a few topics that make people get hotted up--mea culpa in the political arena--but by and large the balance, for such a minimal effort at control, is quite good. (Not that Joe's efforts are minimal, but that the control structure is, being a democratic sort of attitude).

You are describing undefined generalized pluralities of these offenses, and I think it may be the case that your impression is actually founded on a small specific number of incidents and/or individuals.


A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

Mudcat Cafes, in towns and cities around the world. Get rid of the Folk Clubs, and bring in The Mudcat Cafes, for real. 'Latte and Live Music, every night of the week' ...with a generous portion of the profits going to Max. Mudcat Diaries, with lists of all the folk music festivals in Canada, USA and UK. Mudcat Calendars, 'Bedroom Blue Eyes' could be January... ;0)


From Max: "We do have some UK moderators and are seeking another. "

"OOH!! Max! Max!" she said, raising her hand high in the air and wiggling her fingers back and forth... "I'm over here!"...   






















(just kidding, Max) :0)


Seriously though, I'd like to nominate Tom Bliss for UK Mod.

And thank you, Max, for all your hard work.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

Tom, I understand what you are saying, even if some others don't.

Everybody has a view point and they should be allowed to express it. However, all too often, people abuse the people who make those posts. They are not able to debate the issues, they can only abuse the people who post (flaming). That's where strong moderation is required and moderators who are visible and known to mudcatters can cut this sort of abuse out immediately. It doesn't take much to inform somebody who is flaming, that unless they change their attitude towards individuals, then they are not welcomed and will be banned from posting.

Its all about manners to each individuals.

I personally think that it is not acceptable to insult an individual and people like that should be banned if they consistently abuse individuals.

What I object to most, is guests who start a thread that is obviously meant to cause a flaming situation. Once it is nicely flamed, they disappear and start another thread in a similar vein.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

"... dare not for fear of being ridiculed for a spelling error or using 'bad' grammar."

Oh, c'mon! That happens almost everywhere, and MUCH less here. If spelling & grammar get bad enough to warrant a comment, it might behoove some folks to make more effort. There is 'almost' no reason for regular, serious spelling mistakes with all the spell-checking programs available....some built right into the browser! (Firefox) I regularly post links to free, excellent spell-check programs.

Everyone has different posting, phrasing 'style', but muddled, run-on sentences with little punctuation and NO capitilization WILL get comments. If it is just reversed letters due to hasty typing, it is seldom noticed or mentioned.

and re: "... the entrenched views, factional in-fighting and inverse snobbery" ...It's a FORUM....where people air opinions! Some people are less...ummm... genteel & polite than others. There are no clear, discrete dividing lines to say THIS post is ok while THAT one is not. It's a continuum....and everyone has a different 'threshhold of pain' when opinions differ & arguments get hot. If they get way TOO hot, Joe or Mick has the authority to edit or delete! Please understand...it is WAY better than 3-4-5 years ago!

Max makes the point that it is better when the members mostly police themselves .... those who do not behave get noticed and spoken harshly to or ignored. There is really no other way to do it, except to delete or ban them, and that is 'rarely' needed... (like 3-4 times!)

   This is really a VERY nice place, and it is possible to read and participate with almost NO involvement in the occasional spat or disagreement.... many, many post here everyday and are never involved in pettiness, though it swirls about them.

Do as YOU please, but don't assume too much till you've tried it a few years... *smile*

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:43 PM

I've only been posting about three years, but I did lurk for about four before that. My views are coloured by views I've deliberately canvassed from people around the folk scene, but I do take your points on board Bill. Tom

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

Ok... I hope you have seen the improvment. Take care and enjoy.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: bobad
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:05 PM

Max, you listed Amazon in the US and UK but may I humbly point out that there is also a Canadian branch at amazon.ca. That is where I make my purchases and perhaps you can arrange to get a cut from there too.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Monique
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM

Max, there's also Amazon.fr and that's where I shop...

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:59 PM

US: http://amazon.mudcat.org

UK: http://amazonUK.mudcat.org

FR: http://amazonFR.mudcat.org

CA: http://amazonCA.mudcat.org


Any German shoppers?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:25 PM

Mister Bliss ! I wish you WERE a member , then I could PM this instead of cluttering the threads !
I know where you are coming from with regard to the negativity re MudCat in the UK Folk world , but there is a LOT of Positivity too.
The Clowns who cause the trouble in here dont seem to be very active within Folk at all , either as players or Audience , but still DO put a lot of New People off ! If people didnt respond to the inflammatory posts , this would be a much happier place .
The Catters I have met in Real Life have ALL been OK people , wether
in UK , in the States or from elswhere in the world .

       LONG LIVE MUDCAT == And Max For President !!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:56 PM

Having ploughed through some of the very long and contentious UK music threads, I can understand a little bit of what TB is talking about, too. There are some cultural differences, even among UKers, which can be a bit difficult to sort out, at times, and there seems to be more of "taking the piss" and I don't mean that in a US way.:-) I think with the land mass being more compact, too, the UKers seem to know one another and each others' music better than the rest of us. I confess, the whole UK scene seems pretty *incestuous* to me, sometimes!**bg**

kat

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:18 PM

We have a number of Mudcatters in Germany, Max - and word has it that they are Big Spenders....

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:29 PM

And we all know that Money Makes The World Go 'Round...

http://www.amazon.de/

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:35 PM

Since I first arrived, I've observed certain Mudcatters having a moderating effect by the power of their words. They speak briefly and kindly, with patience and purpose. Humanity touches humanity, and the response I feel inside me makes up for all the pettiness. Handsome is as handsome does.

Visible "Moderator" badges would actually take away from that sense of human contact, and inhibit bystanders like me from trying to volunteer. Whose "job" is it to pour oil on troubled waters? Not mine: I'm not authorised.

Not that I've done much; but I feel like it's up to us, not somebody with a uniform, to make this community a good place. It works, Max.

Yes, to Mudcat MP3s! Buy 12, get one free?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

It would be convenient if one could attach a post to the particular previous post to which it is a reply, rather than just tacking it on to the end of the thread. That would also provide a perspicuous way of correcting one's own errors, short of being able to edit previous posts. (O.K., you know where I get these outlandish ideas. For quite a while I thought of the Mudcat as the monster that ate rec.music.folk.)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:31 PM

Rather than talk about who has been "kept out" of Mudcat-or who chooses not to post on Mudcat after lurkin here, I'd love to talk about how we could get certain populations of folks to visit Mudcat and post on threads. Specifically, I'd love to see more people of color posting on Mudcat.

I suppose there may be other people of color besides me who regularly or periodically post on this forum, but when a thread on race invariably is started, those persons don't speak out. Consequently, those discussions lack the myrid perspectives from people of color.

I've not been successful in the individual recruitment that I've done, but I know there must be other people of color who are interested in the wide ranging serious, research oriented, and/or lighthearted witty play on word discussion that we have here on music, culture, and so much more.

In the brick and mortar world, when integration was beginning, some civic,religious, education, or social etc groups decided not to wait for people of color to come to them, but recognized the need to be proactive about reaching out to these populations, partly because those groups recognized the value that they would receive in being more integrated.

I'm wondering, Max, if you would consider doing targeted publicity about Mudcat to online websites whose posters or members are predominately African Americans, Black Britons, Latinos, Native Americans, Asians, and/or other people of color? An aspect of this targeted recruitment might be highlighting threads on subjects that might be more recognizable to persons from those populations such as threads on Caribbean music, or African music, or threads on specific artists from those cultures and other cultures {many of which are part of the larger cultures of the countries from which most Mudcatters come-the USA, UK, Canada, and Australia}.

If you are interested in this idea, Max, I'm interested in being part of the brainstorming as to how such targeted recruitment of Mudcat members-or simply information sharing about the existence of Mudcat-could effectively occur.

Thanks, in advance, for your consideration of this idea. And thank you for making this wonderful resource and community possible.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:53 PM

Hey, good idea too, Azizi. Do you have a short list of all-time "memorable cultural threads"? Can we have it in the FAQs? Of course other ethnicities' best threads ought to be on the list, too, but if you make sure it contains some of the best examples you've seen, it would offer a rewarding place for people to start without getting discouraged by their first few threads.

Popular "favourite threads lists" make a good starting point for any neophyte, and could be featured prominently in any publicity.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:35 PM

Max-

Thanks for the update. It's good to be reminded that there is a man and a family behind the working virtual community called the Mudcat Forum.

I'll be sending in a holiday bonus soon.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:18 AM

Love Offering -

In some tight-knit communities it is common at Thanksgiving to offer up a "love offering" to someone that is in need - or to someone that has ministered to a need.

Read the thread and contribute - as you are able.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

You want sell CD's - of stuff already in public domain???? I would gladly pay a US buck EACH for the two hundred of my worst rants ... to be expunged forever... from the hidden (PTL) archives of the Mudcat ... Lord knows that the bank would be bankrupt if I were to try and cover them all.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:21 AM

AZIZIZZZn -

Re: I'd love to see more people of color posting on Mudcat.

Chit gurl yo gotta git uz a dye berry card furst.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Colin Randall
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:24 AM

While some people may be deterred from posting by the fear that they could be insulted, I've a feeling that most of us are sufficiently thick-skinned not to worry too much.

Robust argument is fine. In various parts of my life, I have been known to criticise, and I am perfectly prepared to receive criticism. If it descends into abuse, I persuade myself that I have probably won a point.

Maybe meeker souls should take comfort from the fact that abusers stick out so much that they simply bring contempt on themselves. Look at the fourth message on this thread (guest.e and signed G). No comment on the individual or his/her words is remotely necessary.

As others have said or implied, Mudcat is a special place. I enjoy the debates, long and short, and am especially grateful for the opportunity to draw attention to items at my own very modest site. I know that some of those items appeal to Mudcatters, because they have said so. But I am also realistic enough to admit that they would go largely unseen, and lead me to close the site down, if I had no means of alerting others interested in the music.

Colin
Salut! Live

ps I agree with the suggestion above that there should be an edit function. I write and edit for a living, but often seen howlers of my own only after e-mailing or posting in haste.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:01 AM

Thanks, Max!

The one thing I've learned from my years here on the 'Cat:

1. You'll never stop trolls from trolling.

1. You'll never stop flamers from flaming.

1. You'll never stop idiots from feeding the trolls and feeding the flames.

Keep up the good work Max, Mudelves, Clones and Joe.

Seamus

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:55 AM

I confess, the whole UK scene seems pretty *incestuous* to me, sometimes!**bg** Too right, kat. I gave up trying to count the number of fingers at the last session, while the twang of the banjos almost drove me mad! ;-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:17 AM

Seamus - you should also have learned that nothing stops the music, whatever happens!

I think the balance between UK and US subjects is pretty good - the US contingent may have to put up with lots of UK based performance threads, but the UK have had to put up with myriad US political threads too... so it evens out. I do however object to Guest.e's use of the phrase "UK poofters"... both racist and homophobist in two words. I'd object whatever nation was indicated, not just because I'm British.

And yes, KatLaughing; with such a small but highly populated island, we do meet up far more often than perhaps those in the US might. I wouldn't quite say 'incestuous' but there is often a faint sound of duelling banjos in the distance at some gatherings! :D It is perhaps that closeness that brings personal feelings, preferences and arguments to the fore in UK orientated threads. What spills out into the threads and on the forum is really only the tip of the iceberg and is often generated by actual behaviour of an individual at a festival or in their private life. Often you only get to hear one side or a warped version of the story, an opinion is formed and nothing anyone can say will change it. When you get individuals, whether named or Guests, fighting it out and washing dirty linen on a public forum, then the best thing you can do is just keep out of the argument and stop feeding the trolls. We're all guilty of having done just the opposite, I'm sure....

I suspect most people forget that this site started as a private venture, not a huge big multi-corporational mega-sponsored moneymaker - I know I do.

Thank you, Max. Sometimes I wonder if you have any idea at all of the impact you have made on our lives.

LTS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:38 AM

Quote: "An idea for generating income right on this site is to sell members' mp3s with Mudcat getting a cut. See eFolkmusic.org for an example. So many mudcatters are musicians and have music available for sale. Not all of it is available at Amazon, but could be available on mudcat to each other as well as to the public. This would be good for members and good for the 'cat."

In some ways, Mudcat is in a far better position to do this than, say, the late and lamented Woven Wheat Whispers, in that it already has an international profile and a huge pool of talented singers and musicians on tap. There is also, I reckon, knowledge out there amongst the membership about how to make such a venture work, too...

Meanwhile, cheers to Max et al for this place. Personally, I like the principle of running it on semi-anarchistic lines. Max's faith in our alibilty and desire to reveal our better selves is an object lesson in hope for humanity...

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:49 AM

Colin; Guest e, I assume to be the inscrutable, and sometimes unbearable Gargoyle, who also made the post immediately after.


Apart from that...............What Liz said, and may I add to it by asking people to check their facts, before they post. It's like editing your own post, but more personal.

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Andrez
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:57 AM

Coming in very late on this thread and have yet to finish it all, but is Joe the Cloner related in anyway to Joe the Plumber?


:-)

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

First item purchased from Amazon Uk with the Mudcat link.

Elf

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:45 AM

QUOTE
"An idea for generating income right on this site is to sell members' mp3s with Mudcat getting a cut. See Folkmusic.org for an example. So many mudcatters are musicians and have music available for sale. Not all of it is available at Amazon, but could be available on mudcat to each other as well as to the public. This would be good for members and good for the 'cat."
UNQUOTE

I thought that was what the "Blue Plate Specials" were...

...

...

...


Sorry, the TV was just showing that footage of "The World's Hottest Buns" .....



again...


:-P

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:50 AM

The "Blue Plate Specials" are for the full mudcat cds. The website http://efolkmusic.org sells cds but also individual mp3s uploaded by its roster of performers. Mudcat has a built-in community of musicians and listeners and selling mp3s here would involve no handling of inventory. In fact, people could record, upload and potentially sell individual tracks as they make them.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

semi-submersible, thanks for your response to my idea. I like the idea of a listing of "memorable cultural threads" being a way to interest people in Mudcat once they become aware of this site. The point I was making is how to help specific populations become aware of this site.

But focusing on your question/comment, I think the threads listed should be more descriptive than the term "cultural". For instance, is there a thread on the most memorable Blues threads, or the most memorable Caribbean music threads" or the most memorable African music threads or memorable African American music threads [which of course who overlap with the Blues thread but would include such threads as the one on the song Iko Iko, thread.cfm?threadid=23200. Also, I didn't know about this archived thread that was started in 1998 until it was refreshed today with a new post: blues lyrics meanings thread.cfm?threadid=4581&messages=29 . Imo, that's an example of a thread which "deserves to be added to a listing of memorable Blues thread.

I think that a good way of alerting people of color* and other folks to Mudcat is starting and maintaining a Mudcat Discussion forum Wikipedia page. Hyperlinks to categories of memorable threads could be posted on that page. Although I've never contributed to a Wikipedia page before, I'm interested in working on a Mudcat Wikipedia page along with other Mudcatters, if Max wants such a page.

With regard to hyperlinks to those threads being in Mudcat's Frequently asked questions "thread", in my opinion, Mudcat's FQA is already very difficult to follow. However, if Max and/or the moderators want to add hyperlinks to these types of memorable threads to the FQA section, so be it.

*To answer a question I was asked in a pm, "people of color" is an all enclusive, generic phrase that has been used since at least the 1990s by African Americans and others to refer to Black people, Latinos, Native Americans, Asians, and other people who have been
considered to be "minorities". "People of color" doesn't mean the same thing as "Colored people", which is a largely outdated referent for Black Americans. As I used it, that term also does not have tghe same meaning as the South African referent for mixed race people-Coloureds-or other such referents around the world.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:34 AM

I asked about Mudcat & AmazonUK years ago and got no response, so I was glad to have the new link which I've replaced on my Favourites. As I encourage loved ones to buy me things (OK, yes, I mean CDs!)off my Amazon wishlist,rather than buying me things I don't want , that should help the 'Cat out this Xmas (and I've been known to buy the odd one myself!).

RtS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:33 AM

OK, how about this: can mudcat get a cut of any sales referred to eFolkmusic from this site via a special link, like it does with Amazon?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Rudy
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:43 AM

Hi Joe Offer,

In that Silver Burdett music textbook series, is there a song about fishing. . .

Fishermen are sitting by the lake...by the lake
Waiting for the fish to take their bait...take their bait
Not a ripple, not a sound
Quietness is all around
Fishermen are sitting by the lake...by the lake.

Thanks!

---

Hi, Rudy - see answer in this thread (click).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

Azizi, they need to be updated and may not be as specifically categorised as you are talking about, but we do have some memorable threads listed with links in the Permathread Index which is accessed through the drop down menu at the head of the thread titles.

LtS, thanks for explaining it better than I could; you've put your finger right on it, imo.

Gervase...{BG}...thought that was banjoes I heard!**bg**

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Cool Beans
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

The issue of folks' nasty postings arose on another site I frequent, Talkin' Broadway, which prompted a regular to remark: Are you tough enough for a theater chat board? So how about a Mudcat T-shirt with the slogan: Are You Tough Enough for a Folk Music Chat Board?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

One thing I've learned by going to a lot of auctions is that you have to go up close and look. If you didn't check it out in the preview, don't buy it from far away, 'cause you just don't know 'til you get it home!

Joe IS all those things y'all are ready to bid on (I'll attest to the eyes), but he's also married... AND, more alarming, as far as I can tell he's in love!

Dani

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:55 PM

Well Mudcat already has Tee shirts available, but one that said
'I survived CH and MG', might be apposite'
JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:31 PM

You never miss an opportunity for a snotty, snarky, nasty comment do you MacKenzie? I particularly liked one of the recent ones:

"The ability to edit ones own posts is a double edged sword. As some people may use it to their own ends. Re writing history is pretty popular in some circles.
You can always ask a clone to edit"---Mow I wonder just WHO likes to re write history?

Rest assured, you ARE being watched by Other Clones. Sleep well.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:55 PM

Yeah on everything.   Glad Supersearch is up again. Glad that you are innovating. I will use the amazon link for everything I purchase.

But most of all, we have missed YOU. Don't forget to play more MUSIC too! Are you playing out again? You know I think you are great. Others do too. Would you be interested in a house concert in the DC area? I'm sure it could raise some money (for either yourself and/or Mudcat).

One thing that might be possible is to work on aggregating and editing some of the thread topics and publishing some of them. The advice found here is amazing on topics from musicology, to instrument care and building, to playing techniques, to songs and lyrics.

And then there are the stories.

Gutbucketeer

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:18 AM

I've got ISBN numbers going to waste. Right now, I have plans for two more, that will leave seven needing to be used. Once I get Prairie Child published early next year and see about doing the same with the novel I am working, I've plans to take a look at a couple of the story threads which we've talked about publishing, after careful editing. I have no problem using some of my ISBNs and assigning them and all proceeds to Mudcat with whatever we might come up with.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:02 AM

Sorcha: personal opinion: you either fix something or forget it.
I don't want to hear about personal molehills from maybe over a year ago that have been filling a mountain-sized vacuum and keep expanding, and are dragged out whenever an excuse is needed to smack somebody. If you want to have a personal grudge against somebody, the rest of Mudcat and the part of the world that reads Mudcat probably does NOT want to hear about it.

Fix it or forget it, because refusing to do one of those things looks like you enjoy the grudge. Maybe you do and maybe a few others at Mudcat like having a reliable target, a scapegoat, but I don't. I think the BS side of Mudcat has come to be about who are our enemies and who are our friends, and that's mostly what drives some of our opinions. I don't like that, but I'm just one voice.

Everybody (admins) is watching everybody (although we only speculate about who's doing what) and Max is watching us all. I couldn't be happier that he's re-surfaced. As an admin, I feel we admins need supervision. It's not good for folks to not know there's an appeal authority and it's not good for us (admins) to not have an appeal authority or someone to go to with questions or complaints. I don't usually have many questions, but just knowing there is a Max reassures me. I was talking to someone yesterday and the phrase 'power vacuum' came up. That's exactly what's happened at Mudcat. Some saw a need for authority and no authority, so they jumped in.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

Thanks, katlaughing, for pointing out the Permathreads Index I'd overlooked all this time.

I like the explanatory sentence or two beside each link (Mudcat Classic Threads section) to augment the thread titles. I prefer to have a sense of where I'm going before I click.

Azizi, if you can bring in participants by "starting and maintaining a Mudcat Discussion forum Wikipedia page [with] categories of memorable threads," great. (We now have a Wikipedia Mudcat article thanks chiefly to Gulliver.) Would you be able to post your links here on Mudcat's own forum too? The Permathreads Index looks like the right place.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:15 AM

Well said, Jeri.

Max, a point of clarification. You said earlier, "I want all contributions stopped". Many of us see Mudcat as providing many things in addition to the social networking facility that many people use it for. As such, we feel that this service should be paid for - at least on a voluntary basis. Many of us contributed to the last hardware buy (the terabit drive). Personally, it makes me feel good to think that I am helping to make this all happen. This is not charity - it is payment for services rendered. May we continue doing so?

Art Brooks

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:55 AM

Art, if Max manages to make the whole thing self financing, which it would appear is his aim. We could still raise money for good cause, like we have for members who have special needs, like losing their house and contents in a fire, as has happened.
It could give grants to help talented kids buy instruments, or pay their fare to musical events, like summer schools.
There is unlimited scope for doing good, in a Folk Music orientated way.
I like the sound of a Mudcat Cafe Foundation.

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

I agree with you on this John. There are some great things we could do.
Adrien

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:16 AM

That's one of your best ideas this year John!

A Mudcat Foundation to provide tuition or instruments and equipment or even just get a copy of 'Singing Together' into every home in the world! (alright, maybe not that last one...) but certainly something that will give back to the community at large from the community here, most of whom have benefitted from this site - whether it be virtually, really, financially or personally.

It bears thinking about...

LTS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

I don't have a problem with contibutions, though I would very much like to survive without them. The big picture is to generate money to be able to spend the time on the mudcat. I would like to think that the more time I spend on the mudcat, the better it will be. I also intend to seek grants and maybe even interns, getting the 501(c)3 non-profit status, the whole ball of wax.

I see the foundation too John, a dream of mine, to be sure.

I want the mudcat to be important and relevant not only on the internet, but everywhere.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM

This is good. Mudcat is a resource for so many of us, it would be nice to make it more of a brand and a force for good musical support, wherever.

For example, I posted a link to this Bill Moyers interview a few weeks ago and speculated that it would be marvelous if Mudcat could raise a few hundred (or even thousands) dollars and build one of these schools in Africa. A note on the link, it is a segment of the program that has some commentary (four minutes) before it gets to discussing the documentary Playing for Change: Music for Peace. The film stems from a multi-year project taht combines the music of street musicians from around the world in familiar songs. It is an incredible job of mixing these performances.

The response was disappointing--polite interest in the subject coupled with enthusiasm for the film, but no sense of "we could do this!" that I had hoped for. With a foundation, this IS the kind of work Mudcat could do.

I'm going to buy this DVD through the Mudcat like to Amazon, if it is available.

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:22 AM

Well, darn. For now it is unavailable, but I have added it to my queue at Netflix. It says "Very Long Wait."

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:31 PM

semi-submersible, I wasn't aware that there already was a Mudcat Wikipedia. I looked for the page under Mudcat Discussion Forum rather than Mudcat Cafe. I'm glad to know that such a page exist. Thanks, Gulliver!

At this time, I'm not interested in starting a Permathread as a means of recruiting new members or for any other reason. However, if such threads were started, depending on their subject matter, I may very well contribute comments about that subject and/or hyperlinks to current or archived Mudcat threads.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: nutty
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

This may be far too ambitious but I would love Mudchat to have webcam facilities so that I can the person I'm talking to - only if they want it, of course.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:15 PM

Thinking about the request for editing, and those spelling mistakes that you see in the second between pressing the button and your post going.
Could it be made so that Preview is ticked unless we click it off, instead of needing to remember to click it as now?
Or is there some way I could do that myself?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM

Well put, Jeri, I feel the same way. Thanks.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

Me too, Jeri.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM

well said Jeri .,

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:45 PM

I don't know about webcams , Nutty I'd just like some folk to chat to! Never find anyone in there. Used to be quite buzzing in there but folk seem to have wandered off into private spaces.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM

Ummmm. Back to the topic? I know I posted off topic... sorry Max.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

Nutty I'd just like some folk to chat to! Never find anyone in there. Used to be quite buzzing in there but folk seem to have wandered off into private spaces.

Sorry Mrs Duck but me too liked to come in there and chat but
when some people are in there, they wont talk to me , or it used to be that way , so I stopped coming in the chat , so why bother .


we dont always see around the corner do we ?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,guest poster
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:07 PM

Is there now a new mudcat forum facility
allowing signed-in members to create new threads
with an option to exclude/filter out unsigned-in guest posters ?
just curious..

I wanted to post an informative and helpful entry
in a thread today, and was unable succeed in submiting the message?

---

Hi-
Guests are welcome to start music threads, but not non-music (BS) threads.
You may have hit one of the filters we have to prevent spam from unregistered (often automatic) posters. Send the message to me and I can handle it.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:07 PM

Well, Maxie...I think you ought to make as much money from the Mudcat as possible, at this point. Go for it!!!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

OK, some of you just don't understand. It's NOT just 'stuff from a year ago'. I'll go away now, cause you really just don't want to know Truth, do you?


Max, you keep on keeping on.....

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: momnopp
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

I dearly love the 'cat and my relationship with this place is paradoxical. I have to limit my time perusing the threads because invariably I lose myself for extended periods of time because the community is so awesome and the majority of the postings (music and otherwise) are full of thoughtful, life-affirming input. I think I started hanging out here in 1999 and I consider it an electronic 'home'.

So enough about that except to say that I keep running across this 'note to self' from about 2006 that says I've really got to update my personal info and photo in the member photos and info section...

So here's an idea: an option on the blickifier to create a blicky that opens the link in a new page. I know how to right-click on a link in foxfire and have it 'open in a new tab' but not everyone does and not everyone remembers and not everyone knows how to get back to the previous page...and maybe you've already made it a default that links open in a new page and I didn't realize it because I haven't tried clicking on a link in a long time because I hate having to use the back button to get back to the 'cat...and it sure is a good thing that nobody writes long, run-on rambling sentences and then fails to go back and edit them or anything like that...

:)

Mudcat Foundation and 501(c)3 -- YESSSS!

Max, I don't have to tell you how many people are making small and not-so-small fortunes with their on-line endeavors. You should certainly be one of them. I've been a student of Internet marketing for a couple of years (and still only making spotty revenue) but the possibilities are endless. My favorite mentor on the topic is a guy named Ed Dale and there is a wealth of totally free info to be had for learning about making money on line through the Thirty Day Challenge. "Social networking" has finally come into its own and I absolutely want to see the Mudcat taking full advantage of the tools available out there.

Mudcat.org has long been my personal ideal for the absolute best the Internet has to offer. It's an electronic means for live humans to interact and enrich one another's lives -- not a substitute for dealing with humans but a way to genuinely CONNECT. I have forged at least one significant friendship born entirely out of interactions on the 'cat and enriched many, many more as a direct result of my participation in this forum. Max, you are an astonishing force for good in this world that so needs visionary input such as yours. YOU ROCK, DUDE!!!!!!!!!

JudyO/momnopp

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM

momnopp -

Those who want to always open in a new page when they click a link can set their browser to do so.

As you've noted, you can always right-click and open in a new tab, or in a new window (unless you're one of our few using incredibly obsolete browsers).

You may not have noticed that with one of those modern mousies with a wheel in addition to the archaic two buttons, you probably have a "switch" that activates if you press on the wheel. Pressing the wheel while over a link (with Windows compatible browsers, and probably with others) will open the link in a new tab.

(Even I forget sometimes that clicking the wheel when not on a link drops an anchor that (sometimes) is an incredibly more efficient way of "scrolling" through a long page instead of spinning the wheel.)

With all of the ways that people can set up their own browsers, and learn the simple habits that suit them individually, there's really no reason for mudcat to provide every little quirk that might please the small percentage who haven't learned a useful number of the tricks.

And personal observation is that 'catters, in general, are incredibly well informed about the simple "techie" stuff, and generally are willing to "drop a hint" or too many hints two if asked.

John

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM

Hello Max,

I just dropped by to thank you for all the work you do to make the mudcat available to us. I have gained so much from the site and without it I would be the poorer.

Live long and prosper!

Best wishes,


Peter

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:16 PM

As has been said by others before me, financial contributions shouldn't be regarded as 'handouts'. The way I see it, Max has built a fantastic resource for us to use. I have used it since 1999 at least - it has become a 'home from home' for me on the net, something unequalled by anything else I've found so far. A lot of people contribute, devote their time to it and make it the resource it is.

BUT: If need be, we could do without every single one of them - even Joe. We could NOT do without Max, his dedication and his technical equipment and expertise. You'd have to look long and hard to find anybody who'd be prepared to do what Max is doing. Therefore, I regard any financial contributions as his due, not as handouts. By rights he ought to charge us, if only to recover his costs.

Max, I respect and admire your decision not to do this but instead try and find ways to make the Mudcat pay in other ways. I hope, though, you'll change your attitude to financial contributions those who benefit from using the Mudcat (we!) may want to make. They shouldn't be regarded as different from any other 'revenue' generated by the site, other than the fact that they are accompanied by three words: Thank you, Max!

As to Tom Bliss' worries: Understandable to some extent, yet I'd hate to see the Mudcat (like others I've visited) turned into a forum mainly for plugging CDs and gigs and 'sanitised' in order not to scare off prospective buyers. That wouldn't be the Mudcat any more. Maybe I don't look at the right threads, but it seems to me there have been worse times for trolling and unpleasantness. I much prefer the Mudcat to the Usenet for that very reason.

To accommodate the business aspect, maybe an extra section, separate from the forum but reachable through a button, could be created where new CDs etc. could be advertised, and Mudcat would get a cut of earnings from that. Just an idea.

As to other ideas: Compulsory preview would be ok, and I also think the edit function for own postings where changes are shown to have been made a good idea. Anything further: no.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 09:55 PM

I got an idea....it would take some programming, but I have no idea how much.
I'd like to see each member allotted 'X' much space for things like their picture, or a couple of pictures they'd like to post within a thread. It could be linked so that clicking on a member name led to their picture, much as now it leads to a list of the member's posts.

Right now, for good reason, the 'img src' HTML to post links from outside Mudcat is not allowed....but if someone could upload an image and link to it within Mudcat, it could be nice. I'm thinking particularly of pics taken BY the member.(Yes, I realize there is 'potential' for abuse, but penalties could be noted.)

Personally, what *I* do right now is take my pic and FTP it to an area my own ISP gives my (at least 2 Gigabytes right now). I suspect that many members have this option, but just don't realize it.

Anyway, if each of us had a small area with an easy upload, it might make it easier to illustrate who we are, rather than have to have someone monitor stuff constantly......

(I can already see weaknesses in the idea...but maybe someone has a refinement of it?)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM

We had a "nearly nude" Mudcat calendar a while back, and Bill D was Mister June in 2001 AND 2002.

Much as I like Bill, I'm not sure the world is ready for a repeat performance.

Be afraid, people.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:40 AM

not THAT kind of weakness in the idea, Joe! Besides, 'tweren't me the folks paid for to get that calendar (Alison, maybe).... You don't think I'd post 'those' images, do you?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:06 AM

Bill D., I used to use the space Earthlink made available, but it's easier to upload to photobucket so I go that route these days. I put larger things or stuff I am not sending to the public at large on my personal pages. Like my holiday letter, I'll post some of the photos and maybe the text there, but the names of the photos and the text won't turn up easily in a photo keyword and title search.

There is a form of software one frequently sees at discussion sites that does allow limited upload of images, not just requiring a link from an external site. It is generally nice, but trouble arises when occasionally people post full-size photos and the huge display throws the page formatting off. That's a pain in the neck for reading the rest of that page.

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:35 AM

I can see BillD's idea for a space for pictures, but memory availability may be a problem.
On a similar basis, it might be nice to have somewhere we could upload scans (in black/white) of sheet music (always bearing in mind copyright requirements) to back up discussions going on here.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

I like the new mouseover box with Amazon links by artist.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM

Oh wait-- this is the kind of thing it goes to-- is there a MudCut???

http://www.amazon.com/Woody-Guthrie-Machine-Kills-Fascists/dp/B0002N4ZE2?&camp=212361&linkCode=wpc&tag=themudcatcaf&creative=384005

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM

Subject: RE: What Should I Tell Them About Mudcat?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

Maybe it's something to add to the "Message from Max" thread. Now 'Guests' can't start BS threads, and we have the BS discussions 'below the line' why not put that whole section out of view of the general public.
It would make The 'Cat look much cleaner to casual visitors!

=====

YESYESYESYESYES!

Make it the default view with a members-only option to mix them-- not the other way around.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

Hide from Google? Google sees All. . .

;-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM

Google may see all, but that doesn't mean everyone has to see all.
Members profiles aren't accessible to Guests, perhaps making the whole BS section unavailable to Guests would be a move forward.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,WYS, Seeing the Guest View at Photos
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM

"You must me a member to use this feature. Please take a moment to log in or Join us."

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Silas
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

OK pardon my ignorance but what does BS stand for, I've always wondered.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:37 PM

Bull Shit.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Silas
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

Fuckin ell John, I only asked!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM

Yes mate, an innocent enquiry.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:02 PM

Silas

You could always read it as "Bloody Sligo"!

Regards

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Silas
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

Is it really that simple - Bull Shit?

I was expecting something slightly more exotic.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:53 PM

Exotic! From this lot?

He he he he he he .........

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: nutty
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 03:34 PM

The more refined of us think of it as "Bloody Silly"

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

or even Breeze Shooting!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

BS: Below Stairs, where the 'real' life gets lived..

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:06 PM

I like to think of it as the place where the Big Spirits swap their deepest insights...



A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM

Once again this brings me back to my suggestion of a Third Domain, between the Upstairs and the Below Stairs, a sort of mezzanine level where visitors could start sensible non-music discussions but with more obvious monitoring for bad behaviour.
There was discussion a bit earlier in this thread about the role of moderators, and Mudcat behaviour sometimes resembling mud slinging in a playground. One suggestion would be for a different standard of acceptable behaviour in the different sections of the forum.
In the Music section we would expect a level of civilised behaviour and good manners. In the (proposed by me) Mid-Section, offensive behaviour, flaming or trolling could be banned, and forcibly removed where appropriate. This might make it more inviting to strangers. The BS section could then be left for the cut and thrust of political debate and gladiatorial combat. Max and Joe could decide where to draw the line beyond which the combatants are not allowed, but keeping something similar to what happens now.

Just a thought!
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 07:56 PM

It's not necessary, Geoff. That is a description of what BS should be. You will see more and more strict monitoring of offensive posts as we move on. Joe and I are watching carefully, and if you have read Max's posts for comprehension (that is not meant in the flip way it could be interpreted, rather just as a statement with no perjorative intention) you will see that it is his intent to return to civility. I will be watching the BS section much closer. Nastiness and stirring of trouble is going to be met head on. That is not to say that real, and intense, debate is not allowed. But if you enjoy belittling, or nastiness, or flaming, or trolling, your posts will disappear. In short, the "below the line" area should be home to great discussion, discussion of controversial issues, humour, just about any subject, so long as the discourse stays on the civil level. Those that have the habit of being nasty and superior will likely not be pleased. But that is my interpretation of what Max is up to, and as Co-Moderator I intend to see it happen.

Back to the village,

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM

Hell, I'll go for that.


A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:25 PM

Sounds great Mick.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM

I think Max always intended Mudcat to be a place for friends, met and unmet, to discuss things. When you have someone swooping in appearing to have no other motive than to piss people off, I don't think it fits into the plan. Much of the political discussion is between folks who dislike or flat out hate each other. I'd be just as happy if the endless same shit/different day political sniping could be limited, but I doubt Max would want that. Much of what I do as a Co-Moderator involves trying to figure out what Max would want if he were around.

Now that he is, maybe I won't have to guess what he'd want and maybe I really won't need to do as much editing.

That said, it would be good to lose the vandals, including the one who occasionally trashes the Mudcat Wiki page. I'm in, if it means making the Mudcat more welcoming.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM

I trust Max not to overdo any changes. I'd hate the Mudcat to get more like, for example, the BBC Message Board.

As for the suggested Mid-Section I don't really see the point. I can't see a clear distinction between it and the BS. I'm all for ractfully and effectively dealing with flaming, wherever it crops up. I think the ban on nameless GUESTS and on GUESTs generally starting BS threads has effectively got rid of most of the trolling. It's a pity when people twist discussions into squabbles, but that doesn't prevent us from having some interesting and frequently level-headed threads about controversial stuff. And that is quite unusual in any context.

Thanks, Max, for giving us the Mudcat, and I look forward to seeing how things develop. As I said, I trust Max to get it right.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:21 PM

Much of what I do as a Co-Moderator involves trying to figure out what Max would want if he were around.

Same here, Jeri.

I do not think the BS section should be hidden from the public; I refer folks to it, every once in a while and I know they come to read. They don't post much, but they enjoy reading some of the better stuff.

IF, there were going to be another section, I would suggest something like a "Mudcat Museum/Depository/or something or other where Vintage/Memorable threads are housed permanently, probably without any access to posting to them unless it's by an admin person. That way they would always be visible and accessible, not dropping off or being buried in the FAQs thread. A lot of folks don't know about them unless they are pointed out. My 2 cents...:-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:50 PM

The old saying "Simplify Simplify". Let's not change to much if change is coming. I say this as I think that what is taking place now is very well done. It is very clear to me at the moment and very easy to get around. I think the control on the B.S. section of Guest's has made a great difference. Some get through once in awhile(like the response I gave to a troll last week that a moderator removed. I don't apologize for my response but I also completely understand why it was removed.)and the one I'm referring to was removed.
Adrien

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

Going back to something raised in Max's opening post:

katlaughing had the idea to sell a CD of your own personal backup of your interaction with the mudcat. All the messages you've ever posted, every thread you've ever posted to, every personal message you've ever sent or received and a copy of the DT. Any interest?

Sounds an interesting idea - but when I read that it occurred to me ethat what I'd really like would be a CD like that of someone we've lost, the late Rick Fielding. And I doubt if I'd be alone in that.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

I suspect that the Fielding Collection would be a best-seller.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

Aye, and the Art Thieme Collection, too. Grand idea, McGrath!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: nutty
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

Regarding Rick and others ... could such things as CD'S be linked to through an Obituary section where such as Rick, BruceO, Col K and other mudcatters who have passed away, can be remembered and celebrated.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

Find any message by your chosen perpetrator & click on their name at the start of the message to see a list of all their posted messages.
(This system already available)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM

I would imagine that it would be possible to do searches specifically within the posts and the threads containing them, which would be quite a significant difference, if you were looking, for example, for what Rick might have had to say about something in particular.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM

Ahhh... surely, "...every personal message you've ever sent or received... " would be excluded from general public sale.

In which case, it's already available.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM

Here's a small thing: how about alphabetizing the quick links at the top of the page, so we can find the one we want more easily? There are also a few that could be combined.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

CDs: I for one would be looking out for a Dave Bryant collection, as well as the ones already suggested. I only heard Dave once, and have been waiting for the tape Essex Girl was planning to do of his recordings ever since.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:28 PM

If you do the Advanced Search, you can set it to look not only for the poster's name, but also keywords i.e. Rick Fielding and "frailing"...my idea of having all of my own postings on a CD was so I don't have to try to remember where I wrote some short story or something I might want to use and also so that I would have a copy just in case something ever happened to Mudcat. (I suppose that might be PTSD from the "Day they came for Mudcat thread!){g}

As for the others, it would be the same thing, there may be a time or days when someone is unable to get online or whatever but they would still like to read what Rick or someone else had to say on a certain subject. With their permission, if they are still living, then you could purchase a specific CD with the proceeds divvied up however they and Max work it out. In the case of those who are deceased, it would be best to get permission from their next of kin.(Thanks, WYSIWYG)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:32 PM

Thanks kat - I hadn't tried doing that with Advanced Search, and it's fun. The thing about the Mudcat is that it always has tricks I haven't come across before, even after all these years. And even without any of these changes and improvements Max has in mind.

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate...

But just in case it would be good to have CDs of some of the good stuff. These are uncertain times...

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM

DO AWAY WITH THAT STUPID CENTURY MARKING OF THREADS!!!


.............uh............200


Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:44 PM

I found a long time back that I could generate a list of html links to my posts and sic Adobe Acrobat on the list and have it generate a PDF book, with bookmarks by post.

Given how much crap I post around here, though, I have not found it a worthy goal to pursue en masse.

A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Captain Sensible
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM

May I humbly suggest yet again that some -named- UK moderators, with power to delete posts and close threads, might make a huge difference in helping to keep us Brits in order?

Try telling that to Mrs Lemon Tom Bliss. Joe has intervened, as far as I can tell, with UK posts.

And as for the BBC website, it is a flick-a-switch oriented forum. Based on radio, CD, and promoting artists, as far as this poster can see. It has it's place in the spectrum, but it is a smaller place than the 'Cat. And not a place I go for erudite discussion or humourous banter.

If you want a suggestion for culling threads - let us start with the self-indulgent adverts for artists. Tom - there can be a turn off factor for over-use, word of mouth must come from others' mouths not yours.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM

I disagree. Often those self-indulgent adverts are the only way we know that something local is available or that a new CD has been released.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM

DO AWAY WITH THAT STUPID CENTURY MARKING OF THREADS!!!


.............uh............200


Spaw


Spaw, You may not have noticed that Max stated that he may edit this discussion. Yours may not stay as post #200

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: My guru always said
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

Great to see that you're here Max & thanks for all you do!

I'd really like to see more use of the Permathreads, especially for Clubs (some do already) & Festivals in the UK. I'm certain that organisers would be happy to edit these threads to keep them up to date rather than creating new threads.

Perhaps the possibilty of using a Permathread could be shown on the 'create a new thread' page so that organisers could be tempted to do this rather than 'clutter' the Cat with lots of threads. It could help with correct naming too so that Catters across the pond could ignore them rather than being aggravated by the prolific use of threads of this nature by UK Catters.

Maybe even more performers (some do already) might make use of this for upcoming gigs etc. I've thought of trying it for the MudGathers I organise but haven't asked about it yet.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

Maybe a 'Clubs and Events' section then Hils, sub divided into US/UK/Other?

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM

(Thanks, WYSIWYG)

Yes, Kat is referring to a PM in which, among other things, I suggested a sort of Mudcat Planned Giving thread where people can post their OK (while living) to make their posts available (after passing) to benefit Mudcat.

On further tought, I suppose any other form of giving could be specified there as well-- songs from their own CD to go onto a Mudcat CD, waived copyright on posted songs of their own for a printed Mudcat songbook, instrument auctions....... Whatever an individual wants done with their Mudcat "legacy" that might benefit the Mudcat they loved in lfe and want to provide for afterwards. Someone who does Planned Giving in some other setting should run it in a permathread. Not a monetary bequest, or any legalese mumbo-jumbo (THAT properly belongs in a will)-- but just an indication which Mudcat could share with the deceased's family to let them know what might happen in honor of that person's stated wishes.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

Did Max answer my query about the new Amazon box-- do those links feed into the Mudcat-benefiting system too? Can someone find out about this?

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MMario
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM

they appear to - when I mouseover "mudcat" is part of the link

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

Thanks, it warn't, before-- my query is gone, too. Musta seen the query, fixed it, and deleted the query. Max being quicker than me, obiviously.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

I would hope so Nigel.....LOL......I read Max's post of course and had the same thought!....LOL.....Of all the sillyass things we do for fun around here, that one about tops the bill. Of course I have played the game myself as has an awful lot (and they are an AWFUL lot) of regulars. The absolutely funniest or saddest part though was when someone started bitching that a Joe Clone had gone in an purposefully changed things so the Joe Clone could get the century marker.

Now if that doesn't show just how silly things can get............I mean really. Can you imagine getting upset because someone took the last tiny, broken, potato chip in the bag? Obviously some 'Catters wwould! LOL..........The joint is always entertaining in one way or another ain't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM

I'm going to confess right now that I haven't red through every post in this thread - which is why I haven't posted up to now. But here's a couple thoughts anyway -

First, thank you Max for creating this space and this community. If there were any question of its value, you'd only have to look at the friendships and even marriages that have happened because of your work and generosity.

Mention has been made of the Mudcat CDs - I wonder if it might be time for a new one? A lot of us weren't here or active when they first came out, and surely there's enough energy and material for a new release. Besides, CDs are cheaper and cheaper to make! (I'm not volunteering to produce this one, but I'd gladly participate!)

I like the idea of the BS being for members only. The downside is that sometimes members will want to login as guests to post things that aren't offensive necessarily, but that might be strong opinions that could interfere with their outside lives and relationships if someone at a job interview were to google them in 3 or 4 years. On the other hand, it would cut down on trolling and rancor, forcing people to take responsibility for what they say. If we lose some posts, so be it - not everything should be said just because it could be said.

In some ways, Mudcat seems like a social networking site for folkies - albeit one created on a very different model than MySpace, Facebook and the like. I wonder if by embracing that aspect of things (perhaps more detailed profile pages?) we could build on some of the amazing community we already have.

Thank you again, Max, for all you're doing!

Dan

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM

Members only... and such related....

Don't know Max personally or very much at all, but, from years of being at The Café, I think I know him enough to say he's a good lad in my books... allow me...

There is ONE thing that I have seen over these years that has resulted in my respect, indeed, my gratitude, for and to Max. That is the fact that he didn't "outlaw" guests... he didn't even outlaw members whose publically stated agendas were to be downright nasty and offensive. And they were. If you were here when certain shitstorms went on, you understand.

What I understand is that Max never gave in to censorship unless it was the last, last, last resort. He championed "free speech" even when it must have hurt him to do so. That one dedication means more to me than any of the crap that I had to put up with.

I know, I know... this thread is about offering ideas for improvement. But, in my mind, this post is about that discussion. I believe that Max has enriched this forum by his dedication to free speech, even if we all had to put up with a bit of crap.

Having said that, whatever happens happens. Max will do what is right and what is just... that is his track record so far and I doubt that will change.

garygnu

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

It's a good point gnu - I guess I just see a difference in this context between censorship and asking people to take responsibility for what they say. As you say, neither Max nor the other co-moderators have outlawed people for being nasty - as a general rule. But in a community, it's best if people who are going to be nasty can at least have the courage to take responsibility for what they say!

Dan

PS: (I meant to say I hadn't "read" through every post above. I'm working with a lousy keyboard, here!)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:49 AM

On any page which lists postings (Forum search results, posts by member, etc.) I'd like to see an option to sort by thread.

I've been frustrated by encountering the same threads again and again through links with different subject lines (e.g. improved or corrected thread name, Lyrics Addition, postings from merged threads) when sifting through search results. If we could sort by thread number, when rolling over the links I could see from the link address when a new group began.

Thank you!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM

> I'd like to see an option to sort by thread.

Me too, me too, me too, please Daddy can we? Wading through miles of headings when all you want is thread-title-only frequently makes me not bother. I also think we'd get fewer repetitive threads/questions if the originals were easier to find.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM

Sort by thread would be good. IF in addition there were a two-character country code in front of thread names, I would n't be tricked into reading posts about obscure Belgian soap opera plots or the merits of pub crisps north and south.


A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM

If you go to the Advanced Forum Search you can use that to set some parameters for sorting threads.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:42 AM

Regarding the production costs for intitial runs of Mudcat products--

Just about any product can simply be Mudcatized by the addition of a computer-printed sticker.

Say we want Mudcat hockey cards. The requestor could use a print-to-size function from Mudcat Photos to print and trim their own card, and order the Mudcat sticker designed for the project. Requestor gets the sticker via snail for the shipping and handling price that covers the sticker, the stamp, and the MudCut.

Any kind of sub-grouping of members could be approached this way. A look at the BS threads suggests a number of categories where people are using the Cat to exchange support of various sorts. A picture of a newly-thinner member encouraging my workouts, for example, or a smiling virtual-hugger to put inthe wallet aagainst a bad day. Making a marketable visual aid out of the usually-virtual text relationships here.

The sticker would be, for instance, the Mudcat logo surrounded by cicled words identifying the particular program's designation. (Look at the new Pittsburgh Penguins' jersey emblem to see what I'm picturing.)

I'd think that a Mudcatter designated to run the stickers and handle the money flow is all the setup required. I no can do, but I can support someone who can.

~Susan

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:08 PM

Badge for Max?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:24 PM

Baseball cards of Clone badges, musical/creative/images for moderating?

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM

The ads have come !!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:10 PM

A 10 minute post edit option would be nice. Could fix stupid typos that are strangely invisible until after the post has been submitted.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM

I already have this nice hat John.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:08 PM

I added some Amazon stuff to the Song pages. Its kind of fun to browse around the songs and see what MP3s Amazon has. Its kind of a soundtrack to your browsing. This one is especially interesting.

And don't worry everyone. I'm going to give members the ability to turn all this new crap you are seeing lately, off. There will be a checkbox in your member profile that can keep the site like it was before I got a bug up my butt. Mostly, I'm trying to get all the passerby's to buy stuff. You members do create a lot of traffic, but you should see how many hits we get from google results for lyrics searches and even the BS threads.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:17 PM

All of our BS chat really must chap Google's hide, so to speak. Here browsers think they're landing on real news, and it is just Amos and Rapaire off in lala land with Shakespeare and Mark Twain sailing down the Nile together. Or some other flight of fancy.

But that does sound like a good way to get the best of both worlds, having ads that can be turned off. And those Amazon clips are very handy--I think quite a few of us have been linking to them for years to share with others or illustrate a song or performer or whatever it is we are talking about.

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:12 AM

Hey, check out this experimental Mudcat Google search up in the normal SuperSearch Box. Early indications make me think this is a promising addition.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:42 AM

I searched for ozcatters (no quotes or anything) on the experimental Mudcat Google search & found 5 references, & as it didn't catch my annual Ozcatters @ The National threads, I did the Google Mudcat search someone recommended sometime back - "ozcatters" site:mudcat.org & found 9340 references.

sandra

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:20 AM

I like the new Amazon adittions but my beef is with Amazon itself.

Why can a UK based company send CDs to America, but not send them to the other side of the town they're based in?

And why are Amazon MP3s only downloadable in the US, not the UK....?

But thanks Max, if it weren't for the new links to AmazonUK, I would never have discovered these problems!

LTS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Marion
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:14 AM

Technical question about Mudcat's deal with Amazon:

Suppose I go to Amazon following the Mudcat link for my country, and then create a wishlist. Somebody else goes to Amazon using their usual URL and buys me something from the wishlist. Does Mudcat still get a cut?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

Is there any benefit to Mudcat if you just use its link to browse in Amazon without necessarily buying anything? Sometimes things are calculated on the amount of hits a link gets, regardless of whether a purchase is made. Is that the case here? If so, it means I'll never use any other doorway to the Amazon sites except the Cat flap.

Re editing posts: I can see how an unlimited-edit option might distort threads, but the suggestion above of a time-limited one is excellent. But instead of 10 minutes could we have 30 minutes or an hour? I usually just want to clean up typos or awkward syntax - or on occasion fix those situations where you discover upon re-reading a line that it can be interpreted two ways. This would be a GREAT boon and shouldn't do any harm to the thread itself.

The other advantage of a time-limited edit option (and why I think allowing an hour would be a good idea) is that it gives a count-to-ten cooling off period in which people may have second thoughts and douse or damp down some of their own flames (heat of the moment and all that). We might see some self-governing which would make the site more pleasant and ease the burden on the mods.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:44 AM

Oooh, I like both of those a LOT, Max. The Amazon floaty thing is cool, and the Google tool's perfect there.

Go Ma-ax, go Ma-ax...

Dani

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:03 AM

I've been coming here for over a year, have enjoyed some great threads, and am very grateful for this great resource. I've only experienced a personal jibe once in that time, and now I'm a bit shocked to learn the person it came from is a moderator.

So who moderates the moderators? are they subject to the same editing etc as anyone else?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:33 AM

>Hey, check out this experimental Mudcat Google search up in the normal SuperSearch Box

Hee hee hee - it beat Irish Google hollow. I tried asking them both to find the website of a local hotel. GoogleCat sent me straight to it, while ordinary google Could Not Open The Page.

Mudcat - 1
Google.ie - 0

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM

Maybe the ad-stuff that slows down the Cat could all be put into the BS section so that brains would have just a tad longer to engage and so that casual coasters-in could get more ads than contact.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Max, the Google thing is COOgLe! I leave Mudcat to Google, and now I don't have to.

The 'ad stuff' doesn't seem to slow me down noticeably, and I'm on a dial-up. Maybe it's not so much the AS ('Ad Stuff') itself but how one's computer deals with it? Of course, now that I've said that, it'll probably take 30 extra seconds to load the next thread I click on. Got Firefox.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM

When you sell space to a big company on your website, I think you are very lucky to be able to have an opt out totally button, never mind restricting it to a specific section of the site.
Suegorgeous, I'm sorry you were upset by a remark from a moderator, but moderators are human too.

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM

Suegorgeous, that would be Joe Offer and/or Max.

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM

I used the Pinnacle site years ago, they allowed edits & had a history of edits displayed. Just the event not the data. 10 minutes (to 30) to edit might help.

&/or till the next post would be simpler.

On the subject of censorship, I don't have a single view - never having been castigated or cast aside for any post. I do feel if I had I might feel like others who obviously have fallen foul of some basic ettiquette. But I hope I would have the gravitas to accept the situation.

We need to trust Max, and that trust seems to be well rewarded, IMHO.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

The moderators have likes and dislikes. There are people and subjects that may drive us batty, and others, we may love. There are threads we read and threads we don't read.

Part of the reason we have the job is that Max believes we will try to leave the subjectivity out of our editing. I'm fairly sure Max won't care if we post our opinions as our named selves. If you think moderating is done based on likes and dislikes, contact Max or Joe. They do watch what goes on because it's possible for us to screw up.

Public outcries of personal 'attention' by specific moderators are usually just a bit paranoid, and either the accused moderator wasn't involved or the editing/deletion never happened. I've SEEN that happen more than a few times. Don't assume Max is clueless or easily duped. He can see everything, and we moderators are aware of that. I'm assuming his omniscience. He CAN see everything, whether he needs to or wants to is another story.

I imagine Max watching The Matrix and thinking, 'Hey! Keano Reeves is playing ME! Cool...'

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

I imagine Max watching The Matrix and thinking, 'Hey! Keano Reeves is playing ME! Cool...'

Only Keanu doesn't do it as well as Max.....

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:04 PM

Thanks John and Kat, that's helpful. :) It's not nice as a newbie to be picked on, and in hindsight I'm sorry I didn't try harder to sort it out between us in private - but water under the bridge now. Just good to know the system (which isn't very obvious to newbies).

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

Newbies........

Newcomer's Guide

Site Map and Permathread Index

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

If you have a serious difference with another member , its always bettr to PM than to start a slanging match in the threads !

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

I think the best suggestion for a re-editing function was the one someone made earlier, in which it would cease to be available the next time anyone posted to the thread in question.   (Assuming that that is possible.)

That would mean that we could correct the typos and omissions we only notice when we have posted, but it'd avoid the situation, which any time related re-editing function would allow, where a re-edit makes nonsense of someone's post in response.
....................................
"If you have a serious difference with another member, it's always better to PM than to start a slanging match in the threads !" The basic rule is not to start or take part in slanging matches either in the threads or in PMs. And that's not a counsel of perfection, it's the easiest thing in the world.

Letting rip in a PM, saying things you'd rightly be embarrassed to say in the open, is no way to use the facilities we are lucky enough to have here.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM

Ahhh... talk of fund generation... the Mudcat nude calendar... the auction... the cookbook... The Cookbook! Yeah. I YTd the title and I found this.

What better reason to throw a few bucks at blues and folk music? And, the cookbook is pretty good too... never used my recipe for partridge stew, tho... or bachelor's chicken soup... or...

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM

I wouldn't want to let rip - just sort it out in adult fashion! anyway, was way too long ago.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM

Can the Member Photo & Info section be please be updated? It seems not to have been for awhile -

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

McGrath - A PM is NOT a slanging match per se , and surely IF you want to discus something one to one it makes more sense to do it via PM than in the forum , cluttering he site up !

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Tinker
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

I just went into the DT and it could become a new way to loose track of time indefinately.

Checking out the different versions of each song (even the totally non-related to the lyric ones) is really addictive.

I'm hooked.

tinker

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:24 PM

Of course there are times when a PM is a much more sensible way of communicating than the open forum, and I've done it. My point was that even off-stage slanging matches are destructive, and in some cases possibly even more so.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:04 PM

An advertising idea which came to me from this post is to perhaps display a list of music related books from Amazon. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM

The DT is now addictive! What a great idea!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 03:11 PM

Just went to Amazon uk through the Mudcat link and made some christmas purchases. mmmmmmusic. Eric Bogle Singing the Spirit Home and and Maddy Prior Seven for Old England for me and some DVDs for others.

Hope it worked and the MC gets it's cut.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: annamill
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 08:15 PM

You've always worked hard for us. Thank you Max.

I haven't been here in a long time and maybe this suggestion is already available, but, I would like to see a thread or something where people who are on youtube.com, or any other site where we can hear them, can let us know they're there. Maybe they can add a link to their, uh, whatever you call an entry on youtube. I admire so many Mudcatters and would love to know if I can hear them online!! That would be so cool! Jeri just told me about Bruce, Alice and her and I went over there and now I admire another Mudcatter! Cool!

Well, anyway, an idea presented.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

I apologise in advance for what's gotta be a stupendously DUMB question, but: Where are the Amazon links kept? I know they pop up periodically in the info box at the top, which seems to have a revolving content. And I also know there are ways to access them (this thread, f'instance), but are there any perma-links which are always reliably in the same place, so when I want to go there I can find the door easily? I did look, but if I've missed something obvious, be nice to me. It's Sunday morning... still coming down...

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 05:18 AM

I found them on the mudcat home (front)page. When you click it takes you to Amazon but you can still see mudcat in the URL. I believe you can also go strait to Amazon and search for mudcat there. Once in, proceed with your shopping.

Should work. Good luck.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 05:48 AM

D'OH!!! Didn't scroll down far enough... Thanks!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: curmudgeon
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:04 PM

So, what has Mudcat been doing for the past six hours?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:06 PM

i know.... i been going through serious withdrawal all day.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

It is rough when it happens on a Sunday because our diligent moderators may actually have a life on the weekend and not know there is a problem.

It might be useful when Mudcat is having server probs that a moderator post a message on the Facebook group.   At least we know someone is dealing with it.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:20 PM

About all a moderator can do is tell you we've paged Max. He may have been tweaking things or he may have been out trying to kill something.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM

Hope Max wasn't hunting on a Sunday!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:55 PM

What's wrong with hunting on a Sunday? I came back from buying food earlier and a guy was hooking up a deer (a dead one, thank goodness) to hoist on the scale at the corner store.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:24 PM

Some of us are not members of facebook and so could not post there anyway. Used to be folks would wonder over to Jon Freeman's site, the Annexe, which he started just for those times when Mudcat was down. I think his mom, Pip, runs it now, but it's still available by clicking HERE.

To reach ANY of the Support Mudcat Links, including Amazon, you may also click on the fish jumping out of the banjo logo and it will take you to THIS PAGE.:-)

annamill, there are lots of youtube threads, one of which is of Mudcatters, HERE. There is also a moderated Youtube Folk Music Videos Permathread. Careful with that one. Rog and I started clicking on links one night and it was four hours later before we came up for air!!:-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 07:18 PM

I sent a text message to Max, and he said we'd be down for 18 hours, or until about noon Monday (Eastern Standard Time, US). Two minutes later, Mudcat was up - but maybe it won't stay up.

Whatever the case, it's time for my Sunday afternoon nap. It's been a busy day - I had to dress as St. Nicholas for a thing at church, and tell legends. The kids liked it, and I love storytelling.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 07:27 PM

We're having some problems that include me being 250 miles away from the server. I've sent my neighbor over twice already to reboot and I am doing what I can to figure out what's happening. If we go down again, the next reboot probably won't be till Monday evening. Hang in there, I'm doing everything I can.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 07:30 PM

Good hunting, if that's where you are! Sounds like you have good neighbors!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 05:21 PM

Yaaaayyyy

JM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 05:21 PM

GASP!!!!
Coming up for air! I've been in Mudcat withdrawal!

Let's not do that again any time soon!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 05:24 PM

Those of us on this side of the pond have missed you too!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

thanks Max & neighbors! & moderators & clones, too.

At fist I thought it was my ISP (as it was one long absence when I could get other sites but not Mudcat!!) until someone posted on The Annex.

Seems like folks do have a life, cos once upon a time EVERYONE would have gone immediately to Jon's site & started comparing withdrawal symptoms.

sandra

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 05:31 PM

I don't remember that URL.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 06:46 PM

OK folks, here's the deal. We have a hard drive failing and I can't fix it until next Wednesday. I've done what I can to get us limping till I get back, get a new hard drive, install the new hard drive, load the OS, load the software and copy the data. Until then, we may be somewhat unreliable.

I made a backup as of an hour ago, so the existing data is secure. However, I cannot guarantee the data between now and next Wednesday, but I'll do what I can. I have an optimistic outlook that we'll be just fine.

Thanks for you patience and thanks to my neighbor and my wife for trying to help me over the phone and for the trips to the house to reboot the server.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 06:48 PM

SRS, I put a link in my previous posting, plus you can always find it by googling "Mudcat Annexe."

Welcome back, Mudcat!!!!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

Best of luck Max.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

Oh, avoid using the chat till I get things back to 100%.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 07:13 PM

The Annexe is always a handy place to head over to when the Cat goes down.
..................
I think it'd be handy if there was an easy way to flag up all the permathreads.   Maybe there already is and I haven't worked it out - but if so it maybe needs to be better signposted.

---

Hi Kevin - at the top of the list of threads, there's a dropdown menu. If you click on it, you'll find a Mudcat Site Map and PemaThread Index. The PermaThread index is also in the FAQ, towards the top. All of the permanent FAQ information is towards the top, and there's an FAQ index at the very top of the FAQ.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 07:18 PM

I wasn't able to get back to the thread to open those links, Kat, but I'll take a look and make bookmarks now. And if I post anything significant like lyrics I'll keep a backup.

I was in the Mudcat group on Facebook but it was way too busy so I dropped it (nothing personal!).

SRS

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 07:29 PM

Well done, Max! Them's well-trained neighbours you have as server-sitters. We have to make do with folks who'll mind the dog!

Regards

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM

Facebook (for those on it) has a 'Mudcat cafe' group - when Mudcat problems surface, usually a comment is made there.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mark Ross
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM

How do I get to the Annex?

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: curmudgeon
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 09:02 PM

The Annexe is here

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Fergie
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 09:03 PM

Ah your the man Max.

Thanks Fergus

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 10:26 PM

Sorry, Maggie, I realised that after I posted last.:-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:12 AM

more thanks to Max & family & neighbors!

McGrath said - The Annexe is always a handy place to head over to when the Cat goes down.

I say it's a good place to visit any time!

& as not all Mudcatters are on Facebook, it's also a Good Thing the Annex is available - thanks Jon & Pip.

sandra

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

Annex link now sent to my home address and I will save as a favorite.

Thank you Max, Joe, wives, neighbors and all others who work so hard to keep the forum afloat in the sea of techincal difficulty.

I will stay away from chat and will likely just look not post (after this) until we get the all clear.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe G
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:04 AM

Thanks for all the hard work Max and others - really appreciated!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:36 AM

The Annexe is a useful emergency refuge when Mudcat is out of action. As said above, it is worth visiting even when Mudcat is running smoothly. I believe the Annexe officially belongs to Pip although Jon maintains the technical stuff. Jon also runs his own site www.folkinfo.org, which is also worth a visit.
Jon has a number of projects for his site. One is collections of tunes in ABC format. Another is a song database with detailed information about printed sources or how/where collected. A useful utility is an online conversion of ABC format tunes which allows you to transpose to a new key, and also to produce sheet music and MIDI files.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM

It's fun auctioning Joe and, now, Spaw. In fact I think this Auction process is exactly the place to organize the $5 fine for whining. Wanna troll, post compulsively, have a little fun with another member-- we can just do it there and pay the freight.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:16 PM

Thanks Joe. I thought there probably was a way to find the permathreads in a hurry. Every time I think the Mudcat needs something it seems to turn out it's already got it.

I gather "Annex" is American spelling - but if anyone is looking for the Annexe on Google it's better to spell it the English way, "Annexe". And I agree, it's a good place to visit anytime. Tends to be quieter and politer than the Cat can be, which is sometimes what you want.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:47 AM

The Annexe is a site for Mudcat members to post on non-music topics, tho anyone can read the threads. Join up & be part of a great site.

sandra

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Zen
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:46 AM

How about an RSS feed? I monitor new content on about 30 websites using these already. Is that feasible as a development at sometime in the future?

Zen

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 11:04 PM

I think it would be nice if there were a "What's new at Camsco Records" permathread or even page where Dick could keep us posted on the latest additions to his catalogue, or even one shared by Camsco and Folk Legacy. I like that we have the amazon links and all, but Dick & Susan and Sandy & Caroline deserve any and all support we can give them and I think that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle.

I also second a suggestion I *think* I remember reading for a third section for UK gigs, fests, etc. I love having Brits be a big part of Mudcat, but there are days when one looks at the music threads and it looks like a UK-only site. NO offence to anyone, just noting what I see and hear from others.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 07:56 PM

I think a separate section for gigs and festivals, separate from the music/tech/obits section, might make sense - but not limited to the UK. It might be that at present it would be mostly UK gigs and festivals, but that's another matter entirely. It'd be the place for us to look if we were off on a foreign trip, for example.

But I think that, whatever happens, it's only good sense and good manners to make a point of giving an indication of where something is happening in the thread title. In fact I think it'd be fair to have elves make a practice of putting that in, if it hasn't been done by the person starting the thread.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:07 PM

OK , I KNOW its Thanksgiving , and I dont expect Max to ignore The Family , but did Wednesday mean Yesterday or next week ?? An update WOULD be appreciated .

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:09 PM

In a Mudcat that stretches round the planet the word "yesterday" is always liable to be ambiguous anyway.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:39 PM

Kevin - You been taking 'Pedant' pills ?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:18 AM

I've been arguing the case for a mid-section for a long while now. Somewhere for the ephemeral but important stuff. The launch of a new CD, gig lists, meeting up with other 'catters when on holiday or at festivals. Radio or television programmes about to be broadcast. A place for the "Blatant Self-Publication" threads (Where are Punch the Horse and Sorcha Dorcha performing these days?). Possibly the place for births, deaths and funerals.
Much of the information in such threads is directly relevant for a very short time frame. Notification of a concert might hit the forum a month in advance or just the day before, when a member sees the local newspaper. Once the gig has been discussed, the thread becomes mostly irrelevant.
A radio show guest may not be listed until the programme is actually underway - we often get "Listen NOW" threads when someone folkie appears unexpectedly on (UK) BBC radio. Even with short term online archives - the "listen again", where available, is only there for a few more days. Perhaps such threads should be marked "Read Only" after a specified delay appropriate to the type of event.

On important thing would be that such threads ARE NOT BS...
It ought to be permissible for a non-member to start an information thread, they may be telling us something we would be interested in.

All in all, as highlighted by katlaughing and McGrath, a "people and events" section would serve two useful functions. Firstly, it would keep similar threads together in one place, and as such make it easy to highlight information which might be only relevant for a few days. Secondly, it would stop such threads cluttering up the top section, and make it easier to scan through and answer the requests for lyrics, tunes and serious discussions about instruments or computer problems.

Whenever I have suggested the idea in the past, the response has tended to be "we get by okay without a third section", but personally, I think that it would enhance the forum.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM

By the way, Spaw!
Is this where I am supposed to say something banal pointless and numerical?
How about going Roman?

CCC

Quacvk!
GtD.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:28 AM

McGrath, my computer can be set either for American or British spellings. Just because letters are free doesn't mean you have to use them! LOL (A little humour) see? I just got a red line under humour.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: BB
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 07:31 AM

Oh, no, don't split it any more, please! I don't even know what's happened to the BS section - it doesn't appear on my page at all, although it used to. But I am interested in what's going on where, and if I lost that, I wouldn't know where to find it.

I'm not terribly computer literate, and I really have only the basics on Mudcat and wouldn't know where to find anything else. Please think of us simpletons and don't complicate it further!

And Max, I'm very grateful for all you and others do - keep up the good work!

Barbara

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 08:05 AM

Splitting the forum does have drawbacks - virtually all other online forums I've ever seen have gone down that road, and one of the many things that makes the Mudcat so much better is that we haven't.

It may seem tidier all split up, and it can be convenient, but there's a price to pay - I'm reminded of the way libraries these days tend to split up fiction into arbitrary sections like Crime, and Romance and you miss stuff you'd have liked because it's somewhere you never look.

I think there is more to be said for doing it a different way, with consistent use of heading prefixes. Maybe with an extra prefix for the kind of ephemeral "people and events" stuff Geoff was talking about there. Perhaps P&E or Eph. Used along with a regional marker such as UK or NZ.

That way, by judicious use of the "filter" box and the "filter out" box up the top of the threads, and people could sort things out for themselves. When they chose they could set up a screen where all the P&E threads are absent, or just the UK ones - or the other way round, when that's what they wanted.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

Conversely, it is possible to have above and below the line mixed in together, as I do, if that suits an individual better. That way you wouldn't miss anything while those who want to check specifically on events would be able to find them more easily.

BB - check your entry in the Membership link at the top of the page. You may have filtered out the BS section there.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:30 AM

Despite the correct observation that it's possible right now to eliminate the separation of "regular" and BS, or just not have BS show up, and the suggestion that that would make the tripartite separation more usable, I disagree.

Many, many of us--even regular, longtime Mudcatters--still don't even know how to do a blue clicky! The addition of yet another control to learn would be another confusing factor for many here.

As to other sites that have multiple sections, I really dislike those things, for the very reason mentioned by McGrath of Harlow.

I say stay with the present two-part separation, with the present ability to meld them, for those who want to do so.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:32 AM

I like the split. Leave it be.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM

BB - go to the top of a page. Just below where it says "Mudcat Cafe" there is a line of clickies starting with "Lyrics & Knowledge" and finishing with "Help". If you click the one that says "Membership" it takes you to a page, which if you are logged in as a member contains a number of boxes with your details. Below all of these are (currently) three extra option choices.
One says "BS Filter" - if the YES button is selected, when you look at the forum, it hides all the contents of the BS section. It sounds as if you have this one selected.
Another button says "Mix Music & Non-music". If this is YES all threads are listed together regardless of whether they are "BS" or not. If you choose NO the BS appears as a separate section below the "serious" section.
Of course. if you have already ticked the do not show BS, then the second button doesn't have any BS to mix in with the serious stuff.
NOTE - the BS filters only work if you are a member and logged in. If you are a guest, the BS is by default there as a separate section.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:48 AM

If not a third section then at least more choices for types of thread designations as noted above AND more use of location designations, i.e. UK, US, NZ, etc.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: BB
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

Thanks to all those who've helped this thicko - it's obvious if you think about it, isn't it?

An 'ANN:' (Announce) pre-fix would work for notification of events, special club nights, tour listings or whatever, wouldn't it? I agree with the use of an abbreviation indicating the country in which it's to take place.

Barbara

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:44 PM

Another 2¢ worth:

I don't want to banish announcements to a ghetto. I like McGrath of Harlow's suggestion of a tag to allow them to be filtered, and I like Barbara's ANN (Announce) prefix very much. I think it sounds more pleasant and useful than EPH (Ephemera), TEMP (Temporary), P&E (People and Events), CUR (Current), or any other label I could think up.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:55 PM

Uncle Dave - for you, I'd be willing to give "blue clicky" lessons.
-Joe-

<a href="http://www.mudcat.org">Click here</a>

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 09:05 PM

Welcome back. 30th Nov, 2am UK time.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 09:07 PM

Now we can get our fix.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 10:13 PM

Buncha junkies! **BG**

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 10:17 PM

YES! but there are worse addictions (like Facebook?)

sandra

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 10:56 PM

Oh, yes! I am a Mudcataholic of many years...no holier-than-though-thou coming from me.**bg** I love it!!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 09:41 AM

It WAS down earlier today , but back now !! Thanks Max

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: topical tom
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 10:03 AM

The Cat is back but there are only 12 posts in the music section and 16 in the b.s. section, November 30, 2008 at 10:03 A.M. Obviously work is still going on.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

Tom:

THere are plenty of posts but the filter is only showing you the last day's worth, which is curtailed. If you set the filter at the top of the list to 3 days you'll see more.


A

Subject: BS: Is Mudcat Doomed???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM

Well, well, well...

Somethin' is going very wrong with Mudcat these days... I ain't no compudder wizzard but seems that it's kinda goin' in and out of consciousness with out being more than in...

Sho nuff hate to see is burn out or fade away but...

B~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:23 PM

Well done Max

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Kampervan
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Mudcat - thank godness you're back.

Facebook just doesn't cut it. Not even with pictures.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:46 PM

...the cat came back ...

thanks Max

sandra

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM

Is he done yet? Are we there yet?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

Mudcat has gone down in Deer hunting season every year since I've been on it.

We Vermonters consider this entirely normal behavior.

Peter

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Kampervan
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM

Please, Vermonters , don't be selfish.
Think about the rest of us and suspend the deer hunting season!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:50 PM

It is a matter of priorities...what is more important, Bambi or banter?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM

banter...

Screw Bambi...

B~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

"I am a Mudcataholic of many years". Just one letter away from being a Mudcatholic then, kat...

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 05:58 PM

Glad you're back, thanks Max - think I'm a mudcataholic too, but definitely not addicted to Facebook.

Kitty

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: BB
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 06:11 PM

Bobert, there's a name for people like you!

Barbara

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: My guru always said
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:21 AM

kat said: If not a third section then at least more choices for types of thread designations as noted above AND more use of location designations, i.e. UK, US, NZ, etc

Perhaps a 2nd drop-down would be possible during thread creation for UK, USA, AUS, NZ etc??

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:28 AM

I think that would only be useful for the proposed "gigs and announcements" section, Hils...and even so, I want to know when Cara has a new CD out.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: G-Force
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:36 AM

In our family, 'P&E' stands for pissed and embarrassing. As opposed to 'P&O' which is pissed and objectionable. 'ANN' might be better.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:56 AM

Personally I would prefer a colour (or color) coded system that showed functions like Announcements and date sensitive information, or US and ROW (because it is a US site first and formost).
The BS and Music separation works but I am always interested in a wide variety of things and colour coding allows us to scan and decide, whereas a system that hides sections would not be inclusive and Folk is epitomised by inclusivity. We are a broad church. The problem with sections is not as bad as a filter but colour is immediate. Background and font colour allows for combinatorial representation (and affords many shades (of opinion?). Maybe a <DIV> layer that can be shown when hovering over an "explanation" area/link.

It can be done even with links CSS and HTML tags allow for it in all browsers. We could still call them blickies because it would not affect thread look and feel, only the list of threads.

I know Max's philosophy is to not be too clever because there are many luddites out there with legacy equipment (And the dreaded IE7 that does thing differently because Bill Gates can). And a few webmeisters follow the same logic. We want to reach everyone we can. Inclusivity again!

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:07 AM

banter...               Screw Bambi...               B~

Hmmmnnn.......

Does the P-Vine know about this Bobert?

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:14 PM

Bite yer tongue, McGrath!:-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:12 PM

Thanks again, Max, for the most astonishing feat of restoring Mudcat apparently without loss of data during any of the interruptions.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:26 PM

Personally I'm about as interested generally in folk activities in Maine or Queensland as I am in activities in Yorkshire. I'm not likely to get along in either case (leaving aside say Whitby Folk Week), but if the thread is about the ins and outs of how things work, and about how they could work better etc, that's all relevant to me. If it's just about who's on next week, it's not really.

So long as the thread heading indicates that kind of stuff, that's all I ask of it, and I think that can be done easily enough. I see no value in filtering out the threads I am probably not going to open, because I can't see any realistic way of doing that without filtering out threads I would be interested in opening. Still, if people wish to do that, so long as the thread titles contain the necessary information, we already have the facility to do it.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:19 PM

Hard though it may be , I HAVE to agree with Kevin (Sorry Mate ! Tongue in cheek there) but splitting the site into fragments will just make it harder to find what MAY be of interest ! Keep the Music together and leave the B S to be read or ignored on what the Title says .

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:48 AM

Create a THIRD Area - between Mudcat Heaven and B.S. Hell

Keep Mudcat Discussions for folk/blues

Threads such as these should go there.
EXAMPLES of Current Threads 12/11/08 - 1:00 am Mudcat Time

Excuses why a 'song' went wrong

Frequently misspelled/confused names.

Name Our Band!

sigma guitars

Stupidest song you ever heard.

Tech: HELP! Viruslab 2009, how eliminate?

Gig filler request, Kendrick-Needham

Tech: Cache viewing programs for browsers!

problems with myspace

Where are the sessions in Essex?

Review: Sidmouth '08

Kendall's book is back inprint

Last Night's Fun - Last chance to see

Recordings by Bill Price

Song Challenge ?

Statements you seldom hear at folk clubs

Miskin at Christmas

2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened

Sitting At The Kitchen Table

Takamine for sale

KFFC Winter Warmer Weekend 20th-22nd Feb

What's On! (Who is Performing Where)

New Sunday afternoon Session in Hull

'Tyne Folk' @ the Welly

Wilsons in Sheffield 16 Dec.

Folk Club Manners

What's On in Herts/Beds, UK; Permathread

No New Barrack Session January

Black Swan FC, York-temp. venue change

Maybe Song Ssn Stoke N Kent Sun 28 Dec?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

need a major-domo to control the upper thread of heaven? - a gargoyle is available in 2009 - oh man doin fine - drinkin de wine - keepin klitter kritters in line - life devine - supline.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM

I'm very happy that MudSeason is now upon us, may it last all year long.

You're my hero Max, grand job

Barry

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 04:54 AM

gargoyle

My only suggestion for a third section would be one called B.B. : Badger baiting . I'm working on the defining characteristics - but I can think of a few candidates alright!

Regards

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 05:58 PM

So, Max...when can we use Mudchat again? I'm told that 'some people' are getting 'twitchy'! Not me...I have my own place now.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

WANTED

A caps-lock fixer. A text case reformatter so those of us who regularly hit the capslock by mistake can easily and quickly save readers from unintended shouted posts without having to tretype every DAMNED word and without burdening helpful clones. Without a side trip to the word processor.

But in the meantime I will ask clones to reformat them (when they are able), in THEIR word processors. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:41 PM

WYSIWYG-
There's free downloaded program called CAPSDOWN that works well.

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM

Hmm....

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:53 PM

Pop the capslock key off your keyboard and cover the stem of the switch with a plastic cap of appropriate dimension--I used some molded doohickey that was left over from assembling something or other.

A

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:00 PM

Lose even one coffee umbrella?!?!?!?

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:20 PM

FirstCap...best available program

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:14 PM

Could not run Dick's. More efforts tomorrow while we're snowed in.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:17 AM

Top 10 gifts
Top 10 gifts
And multiple others!

Someone just using the 'Cat as an advertising space?
Can these be deleted?
Should these be deleted?
Presumably they are not linked through Max's recent move to improve Mudcat.

Cheers
Nigel

---

Oh, that was just Spam, Nigel. All guest messages are reviewed several times a day, and stuff like that gets deleted as a matter of course. No need to report it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM

Just checked the description on Google, seems to be posting to many diverse forums/fora

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 11:06 AM

A nice feature at another forum is a boxed "Unanswered" thread list that appears alongside the regular forum list. That box makes it easy to zoom in on things that need to be researched or FAQ-linked.

It also has a boxed "My Discussions" list to easily transfer the eye to things one is already caught up in.

And.... :~) both help with member time management. Like Mudcat, each of these boxes shows newest items at the top.

~S~

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:02 AM

"WANTED

A caps-lock fixer. A text case reformatter so those of us who regularly hit the capslock by mistake can easily and quickly save readers from unintended shouted posts without having to tretype every DAMNED word a"

Firefox Addon called "Leet Key" - does it all even typing gibberish automatically when you want to... :-)

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:38 AM

I'm making my year-end donations today, with another one for Mudcat, and want to remind others that they might consider making a donation as well.

Thanks, Max et al!

Charley Noble