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From Max: Mudcat Update

Amos 18 Nov 08 - 09:44 PM
GUEST,Captain Sensible 19 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM
SINSULL 19 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM
My guru always said 19 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM
wysiwyg 19 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM
wysiwyg 19 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM
MMario 19 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM
wysiwyg 19 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM
catspaw49 19 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM
Dan Schatz 19 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM
gnu 19 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM
Dan Schatz 19 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM
semi-submersible 20 Nov 08 - 04:49 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 20 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM
Amos 20 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM
katlaughing 20 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM
wysiwyg 20 Nov 08 - 11:42 AM
John MacKenzie 20 Nov 08 - 12:08 PM
wysiwyg 20 Nov 08 - 12:24 PM
John MacKenzie 20 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM
Cluin 20 Nov 08 - 10:10 PM
Max 20 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM
Max 20 Nov 08 - 11:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 20 Nov 08 - 11:17 PM
Max 21 Nov 08 - 12:12 AM
Sandra in Sydney 21 Nov 08 - 12:42 AM
Liz the Squeak 21 Nov 08 - 03:20 AM
Marion 21 Nov 08 - 04:14 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 21 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,Dani 21 Nov 08 - 06:44 AM
Suegorgeous 21 Nov 08 - 07:03 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 21 Nov 08 - 07:33 AM
wysiwyg 21 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM
Jeri 21 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM
katlaughing 21 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM
Mr Red 21 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM
Jeri 21 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM
MMario 21 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM
Suegorgeous 21 Nov 08 - 02:04 PM
gnu 21 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM
Leadfingers 21 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM
gnu 21 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM
Suegorgeous 21 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 22 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM
Leadfingers 22 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM
Tinker 22 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM
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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:44 PM

I found a long time back that I could generate a list of html links to my posts and sic Adobe Acrobat on the list and have it generate a PDF book, with bookmarks by post.

Given how much crap I post around here, though, I have not found it a worthy goal to pursue en masse.

A


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Captain Sensible
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM

May I humbly suggest yet again that some -named- UK moderators, with power to delete posts and close threads, might make a huge difference in helping to keep us Brits in order?

Try telling that to Mrs Lemon Tom Bliss. Joe has intervened, as far as I can tell, with UK posts.

And as for the BBC website, it is a flick-a-switch oriented forum. Based on radio, CD, and promoting artists, as far as this poster can see. It has it's place in the spectrum, but it is a smaller place than the 'Cat. And not a place I go for erudite discussion or humourous banter.

If you want a suggestion for culling threads - let us start with the self-indulgent adverts for artists. Tom - there can be a turn off factor for over-use, word of mouth must come from others' mouths not yours.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM

I disagree. Often those self-indulgent adverts are the only way we know that something local is available or that a new CD has been released.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM

Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM

DO AWAY WITH THAT STUPID CENTURY MARKING OF THREADS!!!


.............uh............200


Spaw


Spaw, You may not have noticed that Max stated that he may edit this discussion. Yours may not stay as post #200

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: My guru always said
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

Great to see that you're here Max & thanks for all you do!

I'd really like to see more use of the Permathreads, especially for Clubs (some do already) & Festivals in the UK. I'm certain that organisers would be happy to edit these threads to keep them up to date rather than creating new threads.

Perhaps the possibilty of using a Permathread could be shown on the 'create a new thread' page so that organisers could be tempted to do this rather than 'clutter' the Cat with lots of threads. It could help with correct naming too so that Catters across the pond could ignore them rather than being aggravated by the prolific use of threads of this nature by UK Catters.

Maybe even more performers (some do already) might make use of this for upcoming gigs etc. I've thought of trying it for the MudGathers I organise but haven't asked about it yet.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

Maybe a 'Clubs and Events' section then Hils, sub divided into US/UK/Other?

JM


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM

(Thanks, WYSIWYG)

Yes, Kat is referring to a PM in which, among other things, I suggested a sort of Mudcat Planned Giving thread where people can post their OK (while living) to make their posts available (after passing) to benefit Mudcat.

On further tought, I suppose any other form of giving could be specified there as well-- songs from their own CD to go onto a Mudcat CD, waived copyright on posted songs of their own for a printed Mudcat songbook, instrument auctions....... Whatever an individual wants done with their Mudcat "legacy" that might benefit the Mudcat they loved in lfe and want to provide for afterwards. Someone who does Planned Giving in some other setting should run it in a permathread. Not a monetary bequest, or any legalese mumbo-jumbo (THAT properly belongs in a will)-- but just an indication which Mudcat could share with the deceased's family to let them know what might happen in honor of that person's stated wishes.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

Did Max answer my query about the new Amazon box-- do those links feed into the Mudcat-benefiting system too? Can someone find out about this?

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MMario
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM

they appear to - when I mouseover "mudcat" is part of the link


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

Thanks, it warn't, before-- my query is gone, too. Musta seen the query, fixed it, and deleted the query. Max being quicker than me, obiviously.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

I would hope so Nigel.....LOL......I read Max's post of course and had the same thought!....LOL.....Of all the sillyass things we do for fun around here, that one about tops the bill. Of course I have played the game myself as has an awful lot (and they are an AWFUL lot) of regulars. The absolutely funniest or saddest part though was when someone started bitching that a Joe Clone had gone in an purposefully changed things so the Joe Clone could get the century marker.

Now if that doesn't show just how silly things can get............I mean really. Can you imagine getting upset because someone took the last tiny, broken, potato chip in the bag? Obviously some 'Catters wwould! LOL..........The joint is always entertaining in one way or another ain't it?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM

I'm going to confess right now that I haven't red through every post in this thread - which is why I haven't posted up to now. But here's a couple thoughts anyway -

First, thank you Max for creating this space and this community. If there were any question of its value, you'd only have to look at the friendships and even marriages that have happened because of your work and generosity.

Mention has been made of the Mudcat CDs - I wonder if it might be time for a new one? A lot of us weren't here or active when they first came out, and surely there's enough energy and material for a new release. Besides, CDs are cheaper and cheaper to make! (I'm not volunteering to produce this one, but I'd gladly participate!)

I like the idea of the BS being for members only. The downside is that sometimes members will want to login as guests to post things that aren't offensive necessarily, but that might be strong opinions that could interfere with their outside lives and relationships if someone at a job interview were to google them in 3 or 4 years. On the other hand, it would cut down on trolling and rancor, forcing people to take responsibility for what they say. If we lose some posts, so be it - not everything should be said just because it could be said.

In some ways, Mudcat seems like a social networking site for folkies - albeit one created on a very different model than MySpace, Facebook and the like. I wonder if by embracing that aspect of things (perhaps more detailed profile pages?) we could build on some of the amazing community we already have.

Thank you again, Max, for all you're doing!

Dan


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM

Members only... and such related....

Don't know Max personally or very much at all, but, from years of being at The Café, I think I know him enough to say he's a good lad in my books... allow me...

There is ONE thing that I have seen over these years that has resulted in my respect, indeed, my gratitude, for and to Max. That is the fact that he didn't "outlaw" guests... he didn't even outlaw members whose publically stated agendas were to be downright nasty and offensive. And they were. If you were here when certain shitstorms went on, you understand.

What I understand is that Max never gave in to censorship unless it was the last, last, last resort. He championed "free speech" even when it must have hurt him to do so. That one dedication means more to me than any of the crap that I had to put up with.

I know, I know... this thread is about offering ideas for improvement. But, in my mind, this post is about that discussion. I believe that Max has enriched this forum by his dedication to free speech, even if we all had to put up with a bit of crap.

Having said that, whatever happens happens. Max will do what is right and what is just... that is his track record so far and I doubt that will change.

garygnu


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

It's a good point gnu - I guess I just see a difference in this context between censorship and asking people to take responsibility for what they say. As you say, neither Max nor the other co-moderators have outlawed people for being nasty - as a general rule. But in a community, it's best if people who are going to be nasty can at least have the courage to take responsibility for what they say!

Dan

PS: (I meant to say I hadn't "read" through every post above. I'm working with a lousy keyboard, here!)


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: semi-submersible
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:49 AM

On any page which lists postings (Forum search results, posts by member, etc.) I'd like to see an option to sort by thread.

I've been frustrated by encountering the same threads again and again through links with different subject lines (e.g. improved or corrected thread name, Lyrics Addition, postings from merged threads) when sifting through search results. If we could sort by thread number, when rolling over the links I could see from the link address when a new group began.

Thank you!


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM

> I'd like to see an option to sort by thread.

Me too, me too, me too, please Daddy can we? Wading through miles of headings when all you want is thread-title-only frequently makes me not bother. I also think we'd get fewer repetitive threads/questions if the originals were easier to find.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:44 AM

Sort by thread would be good. IF in addition there were a two-character country code in front of thread names, I would n't be tricked into reading posts about obscure Belgian soap opera plots or the merits of pub crisps north and south.


A


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:06 AM

If you go to the Advanced Forum Search you can use that to set some parameters for sorting threads.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:42 AM

Regarding the production costs for intitial runs of Mudcat products--

Just about any product can simply be Mudcatized by the addition of a computer-printed sticker.

Say we want Mudcat hockey cards. The requestor could use a print-to-size function from Mudcat Photos to print and trim their own card, and order the Mudcat sticker designed for the project. Requestor gets the sticker via snail for the shipping and handling price that covers the sticker, the stamp, and the MudCut.

Any kind of sub-grouping of members could be approached this way. A look at the BS threads suggests a number of categories where people are using the Cat to exchange support of various sorts. A picture of a newly-thinner member encouraging my workouts, for example, or a smiling virtual-hugger to put inthe wallet aagainst a bad day. Making a marketable visual aid out of the usually-virtual text relationships here.

The sticker would be, for instance, the Mudcat logo surrounded by cicled words identifying the particular program's designation. (Look at the new Pittsburgh Penguins' jersey emblem to see what I'm picturing.)

I'd think that a Mudcatter designated to run the stickers and handle the money flow is all the setup required. I no can do, but I can support someone who can.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:08 PM

Badge for Max?


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:24 PM

Baseball cards of Clone badges, musical/creative/images for moderating?

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:32 PM

The ads have come !!


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:10 PM

A 10 minute post edit option would be nice. Could fix stupid typos that are strangely invisible until after the post has been submitted.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM

I already have this nice hat John.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:08 PM

I added some Amazon stuff to the Song pages. Its kind of fun to browse around the songs and see what MP3s Amazon has. Its kind of a soundtrack to your browsing. This one is especially interesting.

And don't worry everyone. I'm going to give members the ability to turn all this new crap you are seeing lately, off. There will be a checkbox in your member profile that can keep the site like it was before I got a bug up my butt. Mostly, I'm trying to get all the passerby's to buy stuff. You members do create a lot of traffic, but you should see how many hits we get from google results for lyrics searches and even the BS threads.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:17 PM

All of our BS chat really must chap Google's hide, so to speak. Here browsers think they're landing on real news, and it is just Amos and Rapaire off in lala land with Shakespeare and Mark Twain sailing down the Nile together. Or some other flight of fancy.

But that does sound like a good way to get the best of both worlds, having ads that can be turned off. And those Amazon clips are very handy--I think quite a few of us have been linking to them for years to share with others or illustrate a song or performer or whatever it is we are talking about.

SRS


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Max
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:12 AM

Hey, check out this experimental Mudcat Google search up in the normal SuperSearch Box. Early indications make me think this is a promising addition.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:42 AM

I searched for ozcatters (no quotes or anything) on the experimental Mudcat Google search & found 5 references, & as it didn't catch my annual Ozcatters @ The National threads, I did the Google Mudcat search someone recommended sometime back - "ozcatters" site:mudcat.org & found 9340 references.

sandra


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:20 AM

I like the new Amazon adittions but my beef is with Amazon itself.

Why can a UK based company send CDs to America, but not send them to the other side of the town they're based in?

And why are Amazon MP3s only downloadable in the US, not the UK....?

But thanks Max, if it weren't for the new links to AmazonUK, I would never have discovered these problems!

LTS


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Marion
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:14 AM

Technical question about Mudcat's deal with Amazon:

Suppose I go to Amazon following the Mudcat link for my country, and then create a wishlist. Somebody else goes to Amazon using their usual URL and buys me something from the wishlist. Does Mudcat still get a cut?

Thanks, Marion


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

Is there any benefit to Mudcat if you just use its link to browse in Amazon without necessarily buying anything? Sometimes things are calculated on the amount of hits a link gets, regardless of whether a purchase is made. Is that the case here? If so, it means I'll never use any other doorway to the Amazon sites except the Cat flap.

Re editing posts: I can see how an unlimited-edit option might distort threads, but the suggestion above of a time-limited one is excellent. But instead of 10 minutes could we have 30 minutes or an hour? I usually just want to clean up typos or awkward syntax - or on occasion fix those situations where you discover upon re-reading a line that it can be interpreted two ways. This would be a GREAT boon and shouldn't do any harm to the thread itself.

The other advantage of a time-limited edit option (and why I think allowing an hour would be a good idea) is that it gives a count-to-ten cooling off period in which people may have second thoughts and douse or damp down some of their own flames (heat of the moment and all that). We might see some self-governing which would make the site more pleasant and ease the burden on the mods.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:44 AM

Oooh, I like both of those a LOT, Max. The Amazon floaty thing is cool, and the Google tool's perfect there.

Go Ma-ax, go Ma-ax...

Dani


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:03 AM

I've been coming here for over a year, have enjoyed some great threads, and am very grateful for this great resource. I've only experienced a personal jibe once in that time, and now I'm a bit shocked to learn the person it came from is a moderator.

So who moderates the moderators? are they subject to the same editing etc as anyone else?


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:33 AM

>Hey, check out this experimental Mudcat Google search up in the normal SuperSearch Box

Hee hee hee - it beat Irish Google hollow. I tried asking them both to find the website of a local hotel. GoogleCat sent me straight to it, while ordinary google Could Not Open The Page.

Mudcat - 1
Google.ie - 0


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:35 AM

Maybe the ad-stuff that slows down the Cat could all be put into the BS section so that brains would have just a tad longer to engage and so that casual coasters-in could get more ads than contact.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

Max, the Google thing is COOgLe! I leave Mudcat to Google, and now I don't have to.

The 'ad stuff' doesn't seem to slow me down noticeably, and I'm on a dial-up. Maybe it's not so much the AS ('Ad Stuff') itself but how one's computer deals with it? Of course, now that I've said that, it'll probably take 30 extra seconds to load the next thread I click on. Got Firefox.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM

When you sell space to a big company on your website, I think you are very lucky to be able to have an opt out totally button, never mind restricting it to a specific section of the site.
Suegorgeous, I'm sorry you were upset by a remark from a moderator, but moderators are human too.

JM


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM

Suegorgeous, that would be Joe Offer and/or Max.

Hope that helps.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:16 AM

I used the Pinnacle site years ago, they allowed edits & had a history of edits displayed. Just the event not the data. 10 minutes (to 30) to edit might help.

&/or till the next post would be simpler.

On the subject of censorship, I don't have a single view - never having been castigated or cast aside for any post. I do feel if I had I might feel like others who obviously have fallen foul of some basic ettiquette. But I hope I would have the gravitas to accept the situation.

We need to trust Max, and that trust seems to be well rewarded, IMHO.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

The moderators have likes and dislikes. There are people and subjects that may drive us batty, and others, we may love. There are threads we read and threads we don't read.

Part of the reason we have the job is that Max believes we will try to leave the subjectivity out of our editing. I'm fairly sure Max won't care if we post our opinions as our named selves. If you think moderating is done based on likes and dislikes, contact Max or Joe. They do watch what goes on because it's possible for us to screw up.

Public outcries of personal 'attention' by specific moderators are usually just a bit paranoid, and either the accused moderator wasn't involved or the editing/deletion never happened. I've SEEN that happen more than a few times. Don't assume Max is clueless or easily duped. He can see everything, and we moderators are aware of that. I'm assuming his omniscience. He CAN see everything, whether he needs to or wants to is another story.

I imagine Max watching The Matrix and thinking, 'Hey! Keano Reeves is playing ME! Cool...'


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

I imagine Max watching The Matrix and thinking, 'Hey! Keano Reeves is playing ME! Cool...'

Only Keanu doesn't do it as well as Max.....


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:04 PM

Thanks John and Kat, that's helpful. :) It's not nice as a newbie to be picked on, and in hindsight I'm sorry I didn't try harder to sort it out between us in private - but water under the bridge now. Just good to know the system (which isn't very obvious to newbies).


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

Newbies........

Newcomer's Guide

Site Map and Permathread Index


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

If you have a serious difference with another member , its always bettr to PM than to start a slanging match in the threads !


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

I think the best suggestion for a re-editing function was the one someone made earlier, in which it would cease to be available the next time anyone posted to the thread in question.   (Assuming that that is possible.)

That would mean that we could correct the typos and omissions we only notice when we have posted, but it'd avoid the situation, which any time related re-editing function would allow, where a re-edit makes nonsense of someone's post in response.
....................................
"If you have a serious difference with another member, it's always better to PM than to start a slanging match in the threads !" The basic rule is not to start or take part in slanging matches either in the threads or in PMs. And that's not a counsel of perfection, it's the easiest thing in the world.

Letting rip in a PM, saying things you'd rightly be embarrassed to say in the open, is no way to use the facilities we are lucky enough to have here.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM

Ahhh... talk of fund generation... the Mudcat nude calendar... the auction... the cookbook... The Cookbook! Yeah. I YTd the title and I found this.

What better reason to throw a few bucks at blues and folk music? And, the cookbook is pretty good too... never used my recipe for partridge stew, tho... or bachelor's chicken soup... or...


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM

I wouldn't want to let rip - just sort it out in adult fashion! anyway, was way too long ago.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:30 AM

Can the Member Photo & Info section be please be updated? It seems not to have been for awhile -


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

McGrath - A PM is NOT a slanging match per se , and surely IF you want to discus something one to one it makes more sense to do it via PM than in the forum , cluttering he site up !


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Tinker
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

I just went into the DT and it could become a new way to loose track of time indefinately.

Checking out the different versions of each song (even the totally non-related to the lyric ones) is really addictive.

I'm hooked.

tinker


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Mudcat time: 15 October 11:49 PM EDT

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