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From Max: Mudcat Update

skarpi 14 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,guest poster 14 Nov 08 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,hg 14 Nov 08 - 08:07 PM
Sorcha 14 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM
momnopp 15 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM
JohnInKansas 15 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM
Waddon Pete 15 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM
Susanne (skw) 16 Nov 08 - 06:16 PM
Bill D 16 Nov 08 - 09:55 PM
Joe Offer 16 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM
Bill D 17 Nov 08 - 12:40 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Nov 08 - 01:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Nov 08 - 08:35 AM
wysiwyg 17 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM
wysiwyg 17 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM
wysiwyg 17 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,WYS, Seeing the Guest View at Photos 17 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM
Silas 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM
John MacKenzie 17 Nov 08 - 12:37 PM
Silas 17 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM
John MacKenzie 17 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM
MartinRyan 17 Nov 08 - 01:02 PM
Silas 17 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM
jacqui.c 17 Nov 08 - 02:53 PM
nutty 17 Nov 08 - 03:34 PM
Sandra in Sydney 17 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM
Amos 17 Nov 08 - 06:06 PM
Geoff the Duck 17 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM
Big Mick 17 Nov 08 - 07:56 PM
Amos 17 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM
jacqui.c 17 Nov 08 - 08:25 PM
Jeri 17 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM
katlaughing 17 Nov 08 - 09:21 PM
Beer 17 Nov 08 - 09:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM
jeffp 18 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM
katlaughing 18 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM
nutty 18 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM
gnu 18 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM
Barbara Shaw 18 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM
Susanne (skw) 18 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM
katlaughing 18 Nov 08 - 07:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 08 - 08:32 PM
catspaw49 18 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM
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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

Nutty I'd just like some folk to chat to! Never find anyone in there. Used to be quite buzzing in there but folk seem to have wandered off into private spaces.

Sorry Mrs Duck but me too liked to come in there and chat but
when some people are in there, they wont talk to me , or it used to be that way , so I stopped coming in the chat , so why bother .


we dont always see around the corner do we ?


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,guest poster
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:07 PM

Is there now a new mudcat forum facility
allowing signed-in members to create new threads
with an option to exclude/filter out unsigned-in guest posters ?
just curious..

I wanted to post an informative and helpful entry
in a thread today, and was unable succeed in submiting the message?
    Hi-
    Guests are welcome to start music threads, but not non-music (BS) threads.
    You may have hit one of the filters we have to prevent spam from unregistered (often automatic) posters. Send the message to me and I can handle it.
    -Joe Offer-
    joe@mudcat.org


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:07 PM

Well, Maxie...I think you ought to make as much money from the Mudcat as possible, at this point. Go for it!!!


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

OK, some of you just don't understand. It's NOT just 'stuff from a year ago'. I'll go away now, cause you really just don't want to know Truth, do you?


Max, you keep on keeping on.....


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: momnopp
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

I dearly love the 'cat and my relationship with this place is paradoxical. I have to limit my time perusing the threads because invariably I lose myself for extended periods of time because the community is so awesome and the majority of the postings (music and otherwise) are full of thoughtful, life-affirming input. I think I started hanging out here in 1999 and I consider it an electronic 'home'.

So enough about that except to say that I keep running across this 'note to self' from about 2006 that says I've really got to update my personal info and photo in the member photos and info section...

So here's an idea: an option on the blickifier to create a blicky that opens the link in a new page. I know how to right-click on a link in foxfire and have it 'open in a new tab' but not everyone does and not everyone remembers and not everyone knows how to get back to the previous page...and maybe you've already made it a default that links open in a new page and I didn't realize it because I haven't tried clicking on a link in a long time because I hate having to use the back button to get back to the 'cat...and it sure is a good thing that nobody writes long, run-on rambling sentences and then fails to go back and edit them or anything like that...

:)

Mudcat Foundation and 501(c)3 -- YESSSS!

Max, I don't have to tell you how many people are making small and not-so-small fortunes with their on-line endeavors. You should certainly be one of them. I've been a student of Internet marketing for a couple of years (and still only making spotty revenue) but the possibilities are endless. My favorite mentor on the topic is a guy named Ed Dale and there is a wealth of totally free info to be had for learning about making money on line through the Thirty Day Challenge. "Social networking" has finally come into its own and I absolutely want to see the Mudcat taking full advantage of the tools available out there.

Mudcat.org has long been my personal ideal for the absolute best the Internet has to offer. It's an electronic means for live humans to interact and enrich one another's lives -- not a substitute for dealing with humans but a way to genuinely CONNECT. I have forged at least one significant friendship born entirely out of interactions on the 'cat and enriched many, many more as a direct result of my participation in this forum. Max, you are an astonishing force for good in this world that so needs visionary input such as yours. YOU ROCK, DUDE!!!!!!!!!

JudyO/momnopp


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM

momnopp -

Those who want to always open in a new page when they click a link can set their browser to do so.

As you've noted, you can always right-click and open in a new tab, or in a new window (unless you're one of our few using incredibly obsolete browsers).

You may not have noticed that with one of those modern mousies with a wheel in addition to the archaic two buttons, you probably have a "switch" that activates if you press on the wheel. Pressing the wheel while over a link (with Windows compatible browsers, and probably with others) will open the link in a new tab.

(Even I forget sometimes that clicking the wheel when not on a link drops an anchor that (sometimes) is an incredibly more efficient way of "scrolling" through a long page instead of spinning the wheel.)

With all of the ways that people can set up their own browsers, and learn the simple habits that suit them individually, there's really no reason for mudcat to provide every little quirk that might please the small percentage who haven't learned a useful number of the tricks.

And personal observation is that 'catters, in general, are incredibly well informed about the simple "techie" stuff, and generally are willing to "drop a hint" or too many hints two if asked.

John


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM

Hello Max,

I just dropped by to thank you for all the work you do to make the mudcat available to us. I have gained so much from the site and without it I would be the poorer.

Live long and prosper!

Best wishes,


Peter


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:16 PM

As has been said by others before me, financial contributions shouldn't be regarded as 'handouts'. The way I see it, Max has built a fantastic resource for us to use. I have used it since 1999 at least - it has become a 'home from home' for me on the net, something unequalled by anything else I've found so far. A lot of people contribute, devote their time to it and make it the resource it is.

BUT: If need be, we could do without every single one of them - even Joe. We could NOT do without Max, his dedication and his technical equipment and expertise. You'd have to look long and hard to find anybody who'd be prepared to do what Max is doing. Therefore, I regard any financial contributions as his due, not as handouts. By rights he ought to charge us, if only to recover his costs.

Max, I respect and admire your decision not to do this but instead try and find ways to make the Mudcat pay in other ways. I hope, though, you'll change your attitude to financial contributions those who benefit from using the Mudcat (we!) may want to make. They shouldn't be regarded as different from any other 'revenue' generated by the site, other than the fact that they are accompanied by three words: Thank you, Max!

As to Tom Bliss' worries: Understandable to some extent, yet I'd hate to see the Mudcat (like others I've visited) turned into a forum mainly for plugging CDs and gigs and 'sanitised' in order not to scare off prospective buyers. That wouldn't be the Mudcat any more. Maybe I don't look at the right threads, but it seems to me there have been worse times for trolling and unpleasantness. I much prefer the Mudcat to the Usenet for that very reason.

To accommodate the business aspect, maybe an extra section, separate from the forum but reachable through a button, could be created where new CDs etc. could be advertised, and Mudcat would get a cut of earnings from that. Just an idea.

As to other ideas: Compulsory preview would be ok, and I also think the edit function for own postings where changes are shown to have been made a good idea. Anything further: no.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 09:55 PM

I got an idea....it would take some programming, but I have no idea how much.
I'd like to see each member allotted 'X' much space for things like their picture, or a couple of pictures they'd like to post within a thread. It could be linked so that clicking on a member name led to their picture, much as now it leads to a list of the member's posts.

Right now, for good reason, the 'img src' HTML to post links from outside Mudcat is not allowed....but if someone could upload an image and link to it within Mudcat, it could be nice. I'm thinking particularly of pics taken BY the member.(Yes, I realize there is 'potential' for abuse, but penalties could be noted.)

Personally, what *I* do right now is take my pic and FTP it to an area my own ISP gives my (at least 2 Gigabytes right now). I suspect that many members have this option, but just don't realize it.

Anyway, if each of us had a small area with an easy upload, it might make it easier to illustrate who we are, rather than have to have someone monitor stuff constantly......

(I can already see weaknesses in the idea...but maybe someone has a refinement of it?)


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM

We had a "nearly nude" Mudcat calendar a while back, and Bill D was Mister June in 2001 AND 2002.

Much as I like Bill, I'm not sure the world is ready for a repeat performance.

Be afraid, people.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:40 AM

not THAT kind of weakness in the idea, Joe! Besides, 'tweren't me the folks paid for to get that calendar (Alison, maybe).... You don't think I'd post 'those' images, do you?


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:06 AM

Bill D., I used to use the space Earthlink made available, but it's easier to upload to photobucket so I go that route these days. I put larger things or stuff I am not sending to the public at large on my personal pages. Like my holiday letter, I'll post some of the photos and maybe the text there, but the names of the photos and the text won't turn up easily in a photo keyword and title search.

There is a form of software one frequently sees at discussion sites that does allow limited upload of images, not just requiring a link from an external site. It is generally nice, but trouble arises when occasionally people post full-size photos and the huge display throws the page formatting off. That's a pain in the neck for reading the rest of that page.

SRS


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:35 AM

I can see BillD's idea for a space for pictures, but memory availability may be a problem.
On a similar basis, it might be nice to have somewhere we could upload scans (in black/white) of sheet music (always bearing in mind copyright requirements) to back up discussions going on here.

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

I like the new mouseover box with Amazon links by artist.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM

Oh wait-- this is the kind of thing it goes to-- is there a MudCut???

http://www.amazon.com/Woody-Guthrie-Machine-Kills-Fascists/dp/B0002N4ZE2?&camp=212361&linkCode=wpc&tag=themudcatcaf&creative=384005

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM

Subject: RE: What Should I Tell Them About Mudcat?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

Maybe it's something to add to the "Message from Max" thread. Now 'Guests' can't start BS threads, and we have the BS discussions 'below the line' why not put that whole section out of view of the general public.
It would make The 'Cat look much cleaner to casual visitors!

=====

YESYESYESYESYES!

Make it the default view with a members-only option to mix them-- not the other way around.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

Hide from Google? Google sees All. . .

;-)


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:59 AM

Google may see all, but that doesn't mean everyone has to see all.
Members profiles aren't accessible to Guests, perhaps making the whole BS section unavailable to Guests would be a move forward.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: GUEST,WYS, Seeing the Guest View at Photos
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM

"You must me a member to use this feature. Please take a moment to log in or Join us."

~S~


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Silas
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

OK pardon my ignorance but what does BS stand for, I've always wondered.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:37 PM

Bull Shit.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Silas
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

Fuckin ell John, I only asked!


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM

Yes mate, an innocent enquiry.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:02 PM

Silas

You could always read it as "Bloody Sligo"!

Regards


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Silas
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

Is it really that simple - Bull Shit?

I was expecting something slightly more exotic.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:53 PM

Exotic! From this lot?

He he he he he he .........


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: nutty
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 03:34 PM

The more refined of us think of it as "Bloody Silly"


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

or even Breeze Shooting!


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

BS: Below Stairs, where the 'real' life gets lived..


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:06 PM

I like to think of it as the place where the Big Spirits swap their deepest insights...



A


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM

Once again this brings me back to my suggestion of a Third Domain, between the Upstairs and the Below Stairs, a sort of mezzanine level where visitors could start sensible non-music discussions but with more obvious monitoring for bad behaviour.
There was discussion a bit earlier in this thread about the role of moderators, and Mudcat behaviour sometimes resembling mud slinging in a playground. One suggestion would be for a different standard of acceptable behaviour in the different sections of the forum.
In the Music section we would expect a level of civilised behaviour and good manners. In the (proposed by me) Mid-Section, offensive behaviour, flaming or trolling could be banned, and forcibly removed where appropriate. This might make it more inviting to strangers. The BS section could then be left for the cut and thrust of political debate and gladiatorial combat. Max and Joe could decide where to draw the line beyond which the combatants are not allowed, but keeping something similar to what happens now.

Just a thought!
Quack!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 07:56 PM

It's not necessary, Geoff. That is a description of what BS should be. You will see more and more strict monitoring of offensive posts as we move on. Joe and I are watching carefully, and if you have read Max's posts for comprehension (that is not meant in the flip way it could be interpreted, rather just as a statement with no perjorative intention) you will see that it is his intent to return to civility. I will be watching the BS section much closer. Nastiness and stirring of trouble is going to be met head on. That is not to say that real, and intense, debate is not allowed. But if you enjoy belittling, or nastiness, or flaming, or trolling, your posts will disappear. In short, the "below the line" area should be home to great discussion, discussion of controversial issues, humour, just about any subject, so long as the discourse stays on the civil level. Those that have the habit of being nasty and superior will likely not be pleased. But that is my interpretation of what Max is up to, and as Co-Moderator I intend to see it happen.

Back to the village,

Mick


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Amos
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM

Hell, I'll go for that.


A


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:25 PM

Sounds great Mick.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM

I think Max always intended Mudcat to be a place for friends, met and unmet, to discuss things. When you have someone swooping in appearing to have no other motive than to piss people off, I don't think it fits into the plan. Much of the political discussion is between folks who dislike or flat out hate each other. I'd be just as happy if the endless same shit/different day political sniping could be limited, but I doubt Max would want that. Much of what I do as a Co-Moderator involves trying to figure out what Max would want if he were around.

Now that he is, maybe I won't have to guess what he'd want and maybe I really won't need to do as much editing.

That said, it would be good to lose the vandals, including the one who occasionally trashes the Mudcat Wiki page. I'm in, if it means making the Mudcat more welcoming.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM

I trust Max not to overdo any changes. I'd hate the Mudcat to get more like, for example, the BBC Message Board.

As for the suggested Mid-Section I don't really see the point. I can't see a clear distinction between it and the BS. I'm all for ractfully and effectively dealing with flaming, wherever it crops up. I think the ban on nameless GUESTS and on GUESTs generally starting BS threads has effectively got rid of most of the trolling. It's a pity when people twist discussions into squabbles, but that doesn't prevent us from having some interesting and frequently level-headed threads about controversial stuff. And that is quite unusual in any context.

Thanks, Max, for giving us the Mudcat, and I look forward to seeing how things develop. As I said, I trust Max to get it right.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:21 PM

Much of what I do as a Co-Moderator involves trying to figure out what Max would want if he were around.

Same here, Jeri.

I do not think the BS section should be hidden from the public; I refer folks to it, every once in a while and I know they come to read. They don't post much, but they enjoy reading some of the better stuff.

IF, there were going to be another section, I would suggest something like a "Mudcat Museum/Depository/or something or other where Vintage/Memorable threads are housed permanently, probably without any access to posting to them unless it's by an admin person. That way they would always be visible and accessible, not dropping off or being buried in the FAQs thread. A lot of folks don't know about them unless they are pointed out. My 2 cents...:-)


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Beer
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:50 PM

The old saying "Simplify Simplify". Let's not change to much if change is coming. I say this as I think that what is taking place now is very well done. It is very clear to me at the moment and very easy to get around. I think the control on the B.S. section of Guest's has made a great difference. Some get through once in awhile(like the response I gave to a troll last week that a moderator removed. I don't apologize for my response but I also completely understand why it was removed.)and the one I'm referring to was removed.
Adrien


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

Going back to something raised in Max's opening post:

katlaughing had the idea to sell a CD of your own personal backup of your interaction with the mudcat. All the messages you've ever posted, every thread you've ever posted to, every personal message you've ever sent or received and a copy of the DT. Any interest?

Sounds an interesting idea - but when I read that it occurred to me ethat what I'd really like would be a CD like that of someone we've lost, the late Rick Fielding. And I doubt if I'd be alone in that.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:51 AM

I suspect that the Fielding Collection would be a best-seller.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

Aye, and the Art Thieme Collection, too. Grand idea, McGrath!


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: nutty
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

Regarding Rick and others ... could such things as CD'S be linked to through an Obituary section where such as Rick, BruceO, Col K and other mudcatters who have passed away, can be remembered and celebrated.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

Find any message by your chosen perpetrator & click on their name at the start of the message to see a list of all their posted messages.
(This system already available)


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM

I would imagine that it would be possible to do searches specifically within the posts and the threads containing them, which would be quite a significant difference, if you were looking, for example, for what Rick might have had to say about something in particular.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: gnu
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM

Ahhh... surely, "...every personal message you've ever sent or received... " would be excluded from general public sale.

In which case, it's already available.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM

Here's a small thing: how about alphabetizing the quick links at the top of the page, so we can find the one we want more easily? There are also a few that could be combined.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

CDs: I for one would be looking out for a Dave Bryant collection, as well as the ones already suggested. I only heard Dave once, and have been waiting for the tape Essex Girl was planning to do of his recordings ever since.


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:28 PM

If you do the Advanced Search, you can set it to look not only for the poster's name, but also keywords i.e. Rick Fielding and "frailing"...my idea of having all of my own postings on a CD was so I don't have to try to remember where I wrote some short story or something I might want to use and also so that I would have a copy just in case something ever happened to Mudcat. (I suppose that might be PTSD from the "Day they came for Mudcat thread!){g}

As for the others, it would be the same thing, there may be a time or days when someone is unable to get online or whatever but they would still like to read what Rick or someone else had to say on a certain subject. With their permission, if they are still living, then you could purchase a specific CD with the proceeds divvied up however they and Max work it out. In the case of those who are deceased, it would be best to get permission from their next of kin.(Thanks, WYSIWYG)


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:32 PM

Thanks kat - I hadn't tried doing that with Advanced Search, and it's fun. The thing about the Mudcat is that it always has tricks I haven't come across before, even after all these years. And even without any of these changes and improvements Max has in mind.

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate...


But just in case it would be good to have CDs of some of the good stuff. These are uncertain times...


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Subject: RE: From Max: Mudcat Update
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM

DO AWAY WITH THAT STUPID CENTURY MARKING OF THREADS!!!


.............uh............200


Spaw


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Mudcat time: 6 December 1:59 PM EST

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