Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BIRDS WERE SINGING OF YOU (AP Carter)
From: Richie
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 11:59 AM

THE BIRDS WERE SINGING OF YOU (Carter Family- Nov. 25, 1930):
Words and Music by A.P. Carter

Last night the pale moon was shining
Last night when all was still
I was wanderering alone in sadness
Out among the woodland hills.

I heard the birds a-singing
Out among the trees and dew
And all the birds, my darling
Were singing, were singing of you.

Chorus: Were singing, singing of you, my love
Were singing, singing of you
And all the birds, my darling
Were singing, were singing of you.

I'll defer to Mark Zwonitzer, "That year he wrote a beautiful and thoroughly modern song, 'The Birds Were Singing of You,' which captured a single suspended moment of grief.

It was around this time that AP and Sara began having martial problems due in part to AP's extended song collecting trips and his lack of interest taking care of his house and family. Perhaps this song is a reflection on AP's situation which in three short years would result in seperation and eventually a divorce in 1936.


Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'
From: Richie
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM

Here's a version of the Carter family song "Beautiful Isle O'er the Sea" from 1916. There's also a reference to a version collected by Sharp. I have that but can't find the book right now:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vqWp2UIaKSwC&pg=PA132&dq=Beautiful+Light+O%27er+the+Sea&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Note that the singer changes the word "light" for "isle" which is certainly understandable and even makes sense.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:38 AM

I'd say just the original Carter Family. 300 songs are enough for anyone. What do you think, Joe?
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:50 PM

Q,

If we just do the original Carter Family then we won't be including all the songs from the Carter Sisters and all the other combinations of the Carters and their granchildren. Also Maybelle who had a long distinguished career, they were on the Johnny Cash show, etc, etc. It would be hard to track down the thousands of songs.

There are around 300 original Carter Family songs.

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: BEHIND THOSE STONE WALLS (A.P. Carter)
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:40 PM

Here's the first part of Behind Those Stone Walls:

BEHIND THOSE STONE WALLS-Carter Family

Twas in St Louis city where I first saw the light
Brought up by honest parents on a pathway of right
I was left on orphan at the age of ten years
On mother's grave I shed many tears

I'd scarcely reached manhood when I left my old home
With some other fellows to the west we did roam
Seeking employment though scarcely could find
We seemed so poor and the people unkind

Was in New York City where we first met our fate
We were arrested while roaming the streets
The charges were burglars the theft it was called
But they said it would place us behind the stone walls

"Behind Those Stone Walls" is a curious title for the lyrics are "behind the stone walls," a small detail but interesting. Lomax collected a similar 1936 version from the Gant family, Austin, Texas, "Adieu to Stone Walls."

It's listed as Saint Louis, Bright City Laws E35d and also known as
"Behind the Great Wall."

Here are some other sources:

Laws, G. Malcolm / Native American Balladry, Amer. Folklore Society, Bk (1964/1950), p266 (St. Louis, Bright City)

Bedingfield, Louis. McNeil, W. K. (ed.) / Southern Folk Ballads, Vol 1, August House, Sof (1987), p. 53 [1951/03/21]

Bishop, Wythe. Randolph, Vance / Ozark Folksongs. Volume II, Songs of the South and ..., Univ. of Missouri, Bk (1980/1946), p151/#165 [1941/12/09]

Clearly this is folk song collected by the Carters. If others versions were posted it might help for comparison.

http://books.google.com/books?id=i_J4Ii9oArsC&pg=PA311&dq=Adieu+to+Stone+Walls&lr=&as_brr=0&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM

I have no idea what Joybell, or Joe, have in mind about limits on the Carter songs. Only pre-1941? Perhaps they will comment.

"Beautiful Isle O'er the Sea" is a composite of three (four? see last paragraph) songs: "Beautiful Light O'er the Sea, There's someone waiting for me," in Belden, which also has elements of "The Prisoner's Song"- and the 'will not marry' verses found in songs related to "Paper of Pins" and in many folk collections. This is a problem with a number of Carter songs- 'Mix and match'. Of course this was a common folk practice.
Belden printed the song in 1940, collected from a MS ballad book compiled by Ada Belle Cowden, date not stated.
(I found myself fitting the words in Belden to "Beautiful Brown Eyes," and "The Prisoner's Song," a new earworm to try and get rid of).

"Beautiful Isle of the Sea" was a song by George Cooper with music by John R. Thomas, 1865; sheet music published by Pond (at American Memory). Not close enough to the Carter song, but here is the chorus:

Fountain of pleasures untold,
Beautiful isle of the sea!
Fountain of pleasures untold,
Bautiful, beautiful isle of the sea.
(Also issued as a song sheet by Johnson)

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:47 PM

Beautiful Isle O'er the Sea was never released by the Stonemans. Even though the Caerter were in Bristol there is no proof they learned the song at that time.

It's possible that the chorus is built from George Copper's song Beautiful Isle of the Sea. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?dukesm:2:./temp/~ammem_qQ91::@@@mdb=mcc,gottscho,detr,nfor,wpa,aap,cwar,bbpix,cowellbib,ca

Since the song was found in the region and the Stoneman's knew it, the Carter's claim for authorship is doubtful. Looking at Beldens "Beautiful Isle O'er the Sea" will help.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

Hey Q,

The original Carter Family concluded their recording career in 1941.
The Border Radio recordings usually don't include all the original members. Maybelle's children were also included as with Beautiful Brown Eyes.

The 1952-1956 Acme sessions wasn't the Original Carter Family.

Let's leave those sessions out for now, OK?

Do you have Beldens' "Beautiful Isle O'er the Sea"? He collected it and first published it.

The song was done first by Ernest Stoneman at the 1928 Bristol Sessions and should be considered a folk song. Probably the Carters learned their version from the Stonemans.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family songs'
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

Hi,

It's interesting Q about Beautiful, Beautiful Brown Eyes. The song was collected in 1928. It was removed from Randolph "Ozark Folk-Songs," Revised Edition, because of a copyright that was put on it in the 1930s. That's just plain wrong IMHO.

The problem was it was a big hit in the early 1950s, since a bunch of mnoey was involved and high record sales, the record company with a bogus copyright began enforcing it.

Anton Delmore claims he wrote the song. I'd bet anything he learned it from Arthur Smith who learned it from someone else. The fact that it was collected years before they recorded the song should matter.

An interesting story about the song is told in Alton's autobiography "Truth Is Stranger Than Publicity." I'll tell it from memory:

The family was sitting down eating Thanksgiving dinner at Alton's house in the early 1950s. In the background he heard the song Beautiful Beautiful Brown Eyes.

"I wrote the number one song in the country," he said. "And we barely have enough money to buy a Turkey."

The way he looked at it and the way it was back in the early days: The first person to record a song- well... it was their song.

So that was his song and maybe Arthur Smith's. Somehow he didn't get royalties, probably because he signed them away or the record company took them.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Joybell
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:17 PM

Oh No! Not the black Mariah! Please.
Will you miss me
Will you miss me
Will you miss me
Will you miss me when I'm gone?

Anyway you'll have to haul Joe away too. Can he be spared? You'd surely miss him.
Searchers for the truth unite and go forth. There are hundreds of songs to go yet.
Joy

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:31 PM

"Beautiful Home"- Unless one has studied the gospel literature, finding the composers is not easy. I won't try on these anymore, but leave them to those who are more knowledgeable, Richie, for one.

So many songs are listed for the Carter Family. Should Joybell be praised for initiating this list, or hauled away in the black Mariah?

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM

"Beautiful Home" was composed by: J. Howard Entwisle and Johnson Oatman who also did The Hallelujah Side and othe gospel standards in 1898

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM

"Angel Band" was recorded by the Carters between 1952-1956. A nice recording, the Acme sessions.

"Are You Tired of Me, Darling" - words G.P. Cook, music Ralph Roland, 1877. Sheet music at American Memory. Fred Kenyon Cook set it to his own tune in 1878; dunno which one the Carters used, although websites indicate the former.

"Bearcreek Blues" - These verses occur in a number of old songs. First two verses are in 19th c. collections. The Carters seem to have made up the verse about Jesse James.

"Beautiful Home" - Shares ideas with "Beautiful," a hymn by Barney E. Warren, 1897, "Beautiful Home," Warren 1911, and "I Have a Home," 1897, also Warren. Not the same. Hank Williams Sr. sang the lyrics used by the Carters.
Another hymn, "Beautiful Home," by A. E. Bloom, pub. in Golden Sheath, 1902, is not the Carter song.
Not found.

"Beautiful Brown Eyes" - Copyright by Arthur Smith and Alton Delmore. Removed from Randolph "Ozark Folk-Songs," Revised Edition, because of this. See thread 6744: Beautiful Brown eyes
Some lines used in older songs.

Subject: Lyr Add: BEAR CREEK BLUES
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:06 PM

BEAR CREEK BLUES is a blues based on traditional lyrics, but becasue they've changed and arranged them, this song could not be played without giving them credit.

Here's Blind Lemon's One Dime Blues:

You want your friend to be bad like Jesse James?
You want your friend to be bad like Jesse James ?
Just give'm a six shooter and highway some passenger train.

Now look at AP's lyrics:

If you stay on Bear Creek, you'll get like Jesse James
If you stay on Bear Creek, you'll get like Jesse James
You'll take two old pistols and hold up that Bear Creek train

This is clearly what happening. They just take some floating verses and add bear Creek, alterning the song. They also sing their own melody. Here are the other Carter verses, all based on exsisting blues:

Way up on Bear Creek, watching the sun go down
Way up on Bear Creek, watching the sun go down
It makes me feel like I'm on my last go-'round,

The water on Bear Creek, it tastes like cherry wine
The water on Bear Creek, it tastes like cherry wine
You take one drink of it, you're drinking it all the time

I'm going high, high up on some lonesome hill
I'm going high, high up on some lonesome hill
Look down on Bear Creek where my good gal used to live

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:49 AM

Away Out on Saint Sabbath is a rewrite of Bury Me on the Lone Prairie. Here is a link with chords and a recording:

http://bettylou.zzruss.com/awayoutontheoldsaintsabbath.htm

Clearly this is rewritten to such an extent it sould be considered an original song by the Carter Family. Here's the lyrics to the cowboy song dating back to 1872:

"O bury me not on the lone prairie"
These words came low and mournfully
From the pallid lips of the youth who lay
On his dying bed at the close of day.

CHORUS: "O bury me not on the lone prairie
Where the wild coyote will howl o'er me
Where the buffalo roams the prairie sea
O bury me not on the lone prairie"

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:25 AM

Here's are you Tired of Me My Darling: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mussm&fileName=sm/sm1877/03500/03501/mussm03501.db&recNum=0&itemLink=D?mussm:1:./tem

1877 by Cook and Roland

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:19 AM

Q,

"Answer to Weeping Willow" is rewrite by the Carter Family of Bury Me Beneath the Willow. Early country recordings that were hit songs often would be rewritten with different lyrics and the same melody. Sometimes by a different artist but usually by the group or individual that recorded the first hit.

Angel Band was not recorded by the Original Carter Family. Let just keep doing the original family then we can add on later if we want.

I agree about keeping them in alphabetical order. Here's what I have for A-F:

Amber Tresses;
Anchored in Love;
Answer to Weeping Willow;
Are You Lonesome Tonight?;
Are You Tired of Me, My Darling?;
Away Out on Saint Sabbath;
Bear Creek Blues;
Beautiful Home;
Beautiful Isle O'er the Sea;
Behind Those Stone Walls;
Birds Were Singing of You;
Black Jack David;
Blackie's Gunman;
Bonnie Blue Eyes;
Bring Back My Blue Eyed Boy;
Bring Back My Boy;
Broken Down Tramp;
Broken Hearted Lover;
Buddies in the Saddle;
Bury Me Under the Weeping Willow;
By the Touch of Her Hand;
Can the Circle Be Unbroken (By and By);
Can't Feel at Home;
Cannonball (Blues);
Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers in Texas;
Carter's Blues;
Charlie and Nellie;
Chewing Gum;
Church in the Wildwood;
Coal Miner's Blues;
Cowboy Jack;
Cowboy's Wild Song to His Herd;
Cuban Soldier;
Cyclone of Rye Cove;
Dark and Stormy Weather;
Dark Haired True Lover;
Darling Daisies;
Darling Little Joe;
Darling Nellie Across the Sea;
Diamonds in the Rough;
Distant Land to Roam;
Don't Forget Me Little Darling;
Don't Forget This Song;
Dying Mother;
Dying Soldier;
East Virginia Blues;
East Virginia Blues No. 2;
Engine 143;
Evening Bells Are Ringing;
Faded Coat of Blue;
Faded Flowers;
Fate of Dewey Lee;
Farewell Nellie;
Fifty Miles of Elbow Room;
Foggy Mountain Top;
Fond Affection;
Forsaken Love;
Funny When You Feel That Way;

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:49 PM

Home in that Rock- God Gave Noah the Rainbow Sign discussed with texts and references in thread 40983: I Got a Home

Agreed, "Anchored in Love" is original title of the James D. Vaughan-James Rowe song; 1911. Words from Vaughan book, "Crowning Phrases."
--------------------------------

Perhaps the best way is to approach their tunes alphabetically, so that some organization can be given to this list.

Amber Tresses (tied in blue)- "Amber Tresses Tied in Blue," 1874. Words by Samuel M. Mitchell, music by H. P. Danks. Sheet music at Levy. (Posted above by Malcolm)

Angel Band- "My Latest Sun Is Sinking Fast," c. 1862. Words by Jefferson Hascall, music by William B. Bradbury, in Golden Shower, 1862. Text in Cyberhymnal.
Cho.
O come, angel band,
Come and around me stand,
O bear me away on your snowy wings,
etc....
(There are other 'Angel Bands', but the chorus is the right one.

Answer to Weeping Willow- Or how morbid can you get). Didn't find it.

Are You Lonesome Tonight - "Are You Lonesome To-night? 1926. Lyrics Roy Turk, music Lou Hindman. Henry Burr made it famous. Copied by Elvis. Hmmm, did the Carters pay royalties or were they different enough?

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:53 PM

He Never Came Back (Carter's 1937): William Jerome 1891

Little Log Hut in the Lane (Carter's 1930): Thomas Westendorf 1879 as "I'm Going From the Cotton Fields"

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:42 PM

God Gave Noah the Rainbow Sign: Traditional African-American Spiritual

Sara in one interview said it came from an African-American source. The song is an old spiritual usually named "I Got A Home the Rock." It reportedly was a slave song though I've not found an early source.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:47 PM

Hi,

I'll go through several more:

Anchored in Love is...

Anchored in Love Divine James Rowe and Jame Vaughan 1911 also 1915

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' so
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:46 PM

"Ship That Never Returned" is by Henry Clay Work. As usual with Carter Family songs, the melody is vastly changed. Admittedly the changes do make the song much more singable.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' so
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:41 PM

Fascinating!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:38 PM

I'm glad copyright is not a problem of mine.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:21 PM

Q,

Another excerpt from my book:

"One source of A.P.'s songs were African-American musicians, an unusual choice for the segregated rural south. In Kingsport, Tennessee A.P. collected "Motherless Children" from John Henry Lyons who belonged to a group including Brownie McGee and Steve Tarter. One Sunday morning in 1928 Lyons introduced Lesley (Esley) Riddle to A.P."

I have earlier sources from both Cannonball Blues (1928) and the associated song "Whitehouse Blues" (1926). I'll have to look for them.
They are related in some way to Delia's Gone which dates back to the early 1900's.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:12 PM

Joe,

My publisher told me I couldn't include Lula Walls in my last book because the Carter's and Peer had a copyright on it. I had to prove my source. Finally they agreed. They also let me include several songs that I felt were copyrighted- go figure.

Now they won't let me use "You Are My Sunshine," a song I strongly dispute authorship (Jimmie Davis).

Anyway the problem with the Carter's songs is their arrangements of songs became popular. Their chords and melodies may differ enough from their original sources that using a similar version of the song may be a copyright violation- as arrangements are copyrighted.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:10 PM

Joe, it is evident that many (most) of the Carter songs predate the Carters. The problem is that slight word or tune changes make copyright possible. Then you have to show that your musicians are not deriving their versions from Carter Family versions.
This means that the court, publisher (Oasis in your case), etc. have to decide. If not schooled in the intricacies of copyright, and the history of these songs, they have to have everything laid out for them, or they probably will err on the side of caution.

In the post above, Richie says the Carters got "Cannonball" from Riddle. There is a small discussion posted above that. Is it Riddle's version? (Cohen disputed the connection; Riddle said he first met the Carters in 1934, but the Carter version dates from 1930. Riddle also said later he couldn't remember the tune, but also said he got the tune from his uncle. Rather confused). One may go through folksong collections and find similar words, and the tune, prior to the Carter copyright. But is the rewrite by the Carters (and/or Riddle) sufficient to fend off other versions? Are there other versions that leave out reference to McKinley? To paraphrase, it takes a heap o' lookin'.

Added note- I forgot to mention that Poole recorded "Whitehouse Blues" in 1926.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:16 PM

If at all possible, please give as much information as you can about the sources of songs, especially if you know of printed sources that pre-date the Carter Family.
I handle licensing for a musician or two,* and it always bugs me when we have to pay Carter Family royalties when I have a strong feeling the song pre-dates the Carters. Oasis is particularly fussy about making sure all songs on cd's they manufacture are properly licensed, so it helps to have solid proof that a song is in the public domain.

-Joe-

*this is not a money-making thing, but it's fun. The only payment I get is a free CD and an occasional kiss on the cheek.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:01 PM

The Carters learned "The Cannonball" ("The Cannonball Blues") from African- American guitarist Lesley Riddle. Here's more info from my upcoming book:

"He was just gong to get old music, old songs, what had never been sung in sixty years," said Riddle. "He was going to get it, put a tune to it, and record it." Riddle also taught the Carter Family such songs he knew like "Coal Miner Blues," "The Cannon Ball," "I Know What It Means To Be Lonesome," and "Let the Church Roll On." Maybelle Carter learned to fingerpick and play slide guitar from Riddle. "You don't have to give Maybelle any lessons," said Riddle. "You let her see you playing something, she'll get it- you better believe it."

It was Riddle's job to learn the melody of the song. "If I could hear you sing, I could sing it too," said Riddle. "I was his tape recorder. He'd take me with him and he's get someone to sing the whole song. Then I'd get it and learn it to Sara and Maybelle."

Through Riddle and his friend gospel singer Pauline Gary from Kingsport the Carters also learned "On a Hill Lone and Gray," "I'm Working On A Building" and "On My Way To Cannan's Land." Through Riddle they adapted songs like Blind Lemon Jefferson's "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" (See That My Grave Is Kept Green) and Blind Willie Davis' "Rock of Ages" (When the World's On Fire), which reportedly is the melody that Guthrie later used to write, "This Land Is Your Land." By 1937 Riddle had married and no longer worked with the Carter family. In 1942 he and his wife moved north to Rochester, N. Y. and lost touch the Carter Family.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

"Bury Me Beneath the Willow" was collected in folk version by H. M. Belden, 1909, in Missouri, title "Under the Willow Tree." The song is widespread and in many collections.

The S. C. Foster song, "Under the Willow She's Sleeping," does not have comparable lyrics, but it could have been the inspiration.

"Tell Me That You Love Me Yet"-- W. S. Hays, "We Parted by The Riverside," 1866.

"The Cannonball" ("The Cannonball Blues")-- From Norm Cohen, "Long Steel Rail," pp. 413-425. Derived from "Mr. McKinley," first heard by Eleanor Farjeon, sung by D. H. Lawrence (yes, that's right). Another source wrote that Lawrence sang the song to her in 1915. No idea where he got it. Four verses preserved. (Lawrence also collected and sang spirituals)
1
Mister McKinley, he ain't done no wrong;
He went down to Buffalo, way Michigan along,
For to lay him down boys, to lay him down.

The best known version of the above is "White House Blues," sung by Charles Poole. Two verses:

8
Came the train, she's just on time,
She's run a thousand miles from eight o'clock to nine,
From Buffalo to Washington.
9
Yonder comes the train, she's comin' down the line,
Blowin' ever' station, "Mr McKinley's a dyin'"
It's hard times, hard times.

The Carter version removes mention of McKinley, and is turned into a 'My baby's left me' blues. A. P. Carter claimed that he got the song from Leslie Riddles, but the dates don't fit.
1
Oh, listen to the train, coming down the line,
Trying to make up all of her lost time
From Buffalo to Washington.

The Carter verse 'You can wash my jumper, Starch my overalls,...,' variant, was collected by Holloway (MS) in 1915, Alabama; N. I. White, "American Negro Folk-Songs," 1928:

Starch my jumper and patch my overalls,
So if I miss the local, I ken ketch the Cannonball.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:29 PM

Hi,

It's my opinion that A.P., who was the main song catcher and spent much time looking for new material, did not write songs. He found songs and if they didn't know the melody they would sing whatever.

He also collected lyrics and put them together and slightly altered them.

Therefore most of the Carter's massive collection of songs are not their own songs. Several years ago I figured out many of their sources and never finished.

I posted a incomplete list above. Obviously because of the copyright royalties mcuh information didn't come to light, Peer was happy to get the royalties. They also got royalties.

Is there anything published where A.P. tells about where he got the songs?

"Bury Me Beneath the Willow" is another song. They said they got it from Bradley Kincaid. So they got songs from radio and other recordings as well.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

Ok. Sweet Fern/Sweet Birds is here already along with a discussion about origins.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

I found "Sweet Fern" somewhere, I remember. Off searching.
Hello Q. Thought you'd be here.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

Date correction- "Meet me By Moonlight Alone" first published in 1812, not c. 1840. A copy dated 1827 recently sold through an Amazon affiliated dealer. The date 1812 seems early (date on sheet music copy hard to read); I can't find a bio of this composer, but one website suggests c. 1800-1845 for Wade.
The lyrics were posted in thread 72121.
Meet Me

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

"Meet Me by Moonlight Alone"-- by J. Augustine Wade, c. 1840, provided the chorus to "Meet.../Prisoner's Song" This popular song appeared in several arrangements both in UK and U. S., and in song sheets by De Marsan amd Johnson in the U. S.

The "Prisoner's Song" of the Carters borrowed music from "The Ship That Never Returned." The Carters included a verse 'If I had a ship on the Ocean,...' which may have been a reference to "The Ship TNR."

Who put the two together is debatable. Some claim Newgate prison in London was meant originally, others claim several U. S. prisons. Wade was English.
------------------------------------------

Dunno where the murder ballad "The Banks of the Ohio" aka "Banks of the Old Peedee" came from. No 19th c. versions known. TBI notes 1915 as earliest date (where?).

More than one song with that title.

"The Banks of the Ohio" -- Originally "De Banks ob de Ohio," a song of the Nightingale Singers of minstrel fame (F. & W. Stimmel, G. Hunkel, G. Little and J. S. Boswell). Sheet music 1846, but probably a little earlier.
(Also see "Hunt the Buffalo, or the Banks of the Pleasant Ohio")

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:19 PM

Dont forget their wonderful version of the Golden Vanity.
Sara Carter was some singer,and the OCF were much better[imo]than the later versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: GUEST,maple_leaf_boy
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:03 PM

"Meet Me In The Moonlight Alone" / "Prisoner's Song."
"Banks Of The Ohio", which has the song credited to Maybelle, according
to a version that I have.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:50 AM

Interesting idea, Joybell. Not much point in lumping them together as pd-trad. Good to know when the songs were written and the composer(s).
Most will prove to have a beginning, and comparing sheet music will show 'folk variant', at least in the hands of the Carter Family.

Here are the top two on that long list by Richie. More later today.
------------------------------

There's No One Like Mother to Me-- Gussie L. Davis, 1885, words and music (sheet music at American Memory).

Will the Roses Bloom in Heaven-- Charles K. Harris, 1911, words and music. Recorded Victor 16857, sung by Henry Burr.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: RangerSteve
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:57 AM

Charlie, there was a thread about "Dixie Darlin" a few years ago, with the correct words (the "Jelly Roll" line was A.P's invention).

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' so
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

I have nothing to contribute, but I think that this is a great thread, perhaps even a "redefining" thread, because it promises to pull together information that wasn't generally available--please keep it up!

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:20 AM

Amber Tresses Tied in Blue: Words: Samuel M. Mitchell Music: H.P. Danks, c.1874.

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Richie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:07 AM

Hi,

Here's a partial list of Carter family songs that they did that are public domain/traditional:

There's No one Like Mother To Me
Will The Roses Bloom In Heaven
Darling Little Joe
Sweet Fern
Tell Me That You Love Me
Cannonball Blues
Storms are On the Ocean,
Wildwood Flower
Can the Circle Be Unbroken
Bonnie Blue Eyes
Chewing Gum
Funny When You Feel That way
Don't Forget Me Little Darling
Give Me the Roses While I Live
When The Roses Come Again
Amber Tresses Tied in Blue
Happy Or Lonesome
I Found You Among The Roses
Lulu Walls
Fond Affection
Dear Companion
Lover's Farewell
Keep On The Sunny Side
Lover's Return
Dark and Stormy Weather
I Never loved But One
I'll Be All Smiles Tonight
Charlie and Nellie
Forsaken Love
I'm Thinking Tonight of my Blue Eyes
I Loved You Better Than You Knew
Let's Be Lovers Again
In The Shadow Of The Pines
One Little Word (Gussie Davis w&m 1899)
I Cannot Be Your Sweetheart (Abbie Ford w&m 1899)
Lonesome For You (I Know What It Means To Be Lonesome- 1918)
You've Been Fooling Me Baby (When You Leave- Allen Brothers)
No Other's Bride I'll Be
Maple On The Hill
Will You Miss Me When I'm Gone
Be Careful Boys/Girls
Hand That Rocks The Cradle recorded 1966
East Virginia Blues
Two Sweethearts
A Message From Home (Maybelle 1966)
Hold Fast To The Right
Will my Mother Know Me There?
My Honey Lou
Give Me Your Love
My Dixie Darling (Arthur Gillespie Percy Weinrich 1909)
You're The Girl of My Dreams/Lover's Lane
Jimmy Brown The Newsboy (Will Hays 1875)
Hello Central Give Me Heaven (Charles Harris 1901)
Black Jack David
Wave On The Sea- The Mermaid Child 289
I Never Will Marry
Rambling Boy
Who's that knocking at My Window/Silver dagger- Oh Molly Dear
Cowboy Jack
My Heart's Tonight in Texas (Witt 1900)
Ship That never returned
Young Companions
See That My Grave Is kept Green (Gus Williams 1876)
Lay My Head Beneath A Rose- 1879
Wandering Boy, The (Hanna 1894) Somebody's Boy is Homeless Tonight/ Bring Back My Boy
Wabash Cannonball
Homestead on the Farm/ I Wonder How the Old Folk Are at Home
I Have An Aged Mother/Ten Thousand Miles

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Mark Ross
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:34 AM

RAILROADING ON THE GREAT DIVIDE was written by Sara Carter. In the late '40's or early '50's, I think.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' so
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:51 AM

refresh!

The search is on!

I always wondered where "My Dixie Darling" came from.

And "Railroading on the Great Divide."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:18 AM

At Joe's suggestion here's a place to list the actual authors of the "Carter Family Songs". All together in one spot. Bound to be lots more to add but
A start:
Wildwood Flower/I'll Twine 'mid the Ringlets -- Words: Maud Irving. Tune: Joseph Philbrick Webster. 1860.

Little Rosewood Casket/A Package of Old Love Letters -- Louis P. Goullard and C. A. White. 1870.

Faded Coat of Blue -- J. H. McNaughton. 1865.

Death of Little Joe -- V. E. Marsden. 1866.
Became Darlin' Little Joe -- Major Charles E. Addison. 1876.

You've Been a Friend to Me -- William Shakespeare Hays. 1867.

'mid the Green Fields of Virginia -- Charles K. Harris. 1898.

Just a start as I said.
Cheers, Joy