What Makes a Folk Voice?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:40 AM

No, Alice, Jim might not let you.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:01 PM

I've heard people who have tried to assume a "folk voice," and in addition to sounding phonier than a three-dollar bill, they frequently wind up with severe vocal problems (chronic laryngitis, permanent hoarseness, loss of range, and a host of other vocal infirmities). Just sing in your natural voice. That's all there is too it.

If you have a natural vibrato, then just let it happen. Don't worry about it. If you don't, then fine. No problem. Sing in your comfortable range no matter where it is. Otherwise, you're asking for trouble down the line. Jean Ritchie sings in her natural voice. So does Margaret Barry. And Jeannie Robertson. And Frank Proffitt. And Lead Belly.

Why make hard work of it?

Like I said above, heed what Alice says. She knows what she's talking about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

It is not just the voice that makes the folk singer,it is the understanding of style,blues is an example of this,so is traditional unaccompanied singing,it is about listening and absorbing style it is about interpretation,it is not about having a pure sounding voice,although that is fine too,if the singer can also interpret.
it is not the voice that makes the singer but what they do with their voice.
the fiddle is often compared to the human voice ,and while a beautiful tone is a desirable goal ,it is not the tone of the fiddle that is exclusively responsible for wonderful music,it is what the fiddler does with the bow,that brings the music out of the fiddle[Interpretation]
Don,your constant assertion that Alice knows what she is talking about,reminds me of a stuck record needle,it also suggests others, dont.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:04 PM

To me, "soul" (personal expressiveness) is the essential ingredient.

I don't think it's necessary to be so very "natural" that you can't use a different approach for songs from different traditions. I think it's entirely acceptable to sing songs with different origins ~ say, hillbilly songs, blues songs, and Irish ballads ~ and to utilize a different style and even a different "accent" for each. What's important is to convey genuine feeling in each context without being primarily concerned with play-acting, that is, without trying to be someone other than yourself.

The human self can be pretty complex, and you shouldn't feel overly restricted to maintaining your ordinary workaday indentity as the single overly-obvious feature of your singing voice. I feel quite sure that my blues-singer self is an entirely valid aspect of my real self, just as much as my country-voice personna and even my not-entirely-authentic "stage-Oirish"-accented balladeer self. They're all perfectly valid "flavors" of a single complex musical personality.

Now, I'm not saying that all of these "voices" of mine are of the best quality, and certainly not that they're equally good. But they're valid as "folk voices": sincere and actually quite unaffected. I regard the different "accents" ~ actually, different sets of pronunciations and of vowel and consonant sounds ~ as aspects of the various folk subgenres, intrinsic to the songs themselves.

I would also argue that various aspects of vocal quality (head vs chest, nasal-ness,. etc.) are features of different folk traditions in exactly the same way as different approaches to English pronunciation (i.e., different accents).

I will use different vocal styles to sing Mississippi John Hurt songs, Gershwin tunes, Royal Navy sea shanties, and Hank Williams classics. But I try not to let those incidental differences stand in the way of expressing my feelings about each song and its subject matter.

I suppose the first step is to develop a way to achieve vocal self-expression however you can, within whatever style or tradition you feel most comfortable. Once you feel coinfident that you have a voice of your own, then (I think) you can branch out and bring your manner of interpretation to different kinds of songs of different styles, and all of your performances will retain an element of natural self-expression.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

I'm sorry if this bothers you, Captain, but it just happens to be the case. And I have read a number of pieces of "advice" here that are just bloody misleading.

I agree that style of singing is important. But if, by trying to imitate the style of traditional singers, the neophyte develops mannerisms and characteristics that are not natural to their own voices, they are running the danger of doing irreparable damage to their vocal mechanism.

Listen and understand, yes. But let the voice go its own way.

That's what real (traditional) folk singers do.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

"No, Alice, Jim might not let you. "
Rather unpleasant and totally unnecessary - still, it takes all kinds.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Alice
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM

LOL

I am imagining someone collecting folk songs, and tape recorder in hand, asking my grandfather, "Now, are you sure you know all the history of this song and have a real folk delivery so we can call this recording folk music?"

The question of the thread was about voice, not whether someone knows all the history of a song, etc. Be that at is it may, imitating a style or another singer's sound is not what I would recommend. Folks singing songs were just being themselves. Relax and be yourself.

I love to learn all I can about the history of a song, but I would not demand that of someone else if they just wanted to sing a folk song.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

Alice

Can't see that anyone here has said one needs to know the whole history of a song before singing it?! research can no doubt add hugely to one's understanding of a song, but to me it's far more relevant and effective to get inside a song through practising it, feeling it, making and developing your own connection with it as much as you can before performing it.

Sue

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

Good to see a variety of opinions, just shows that like so many things, there's never an objectively or uniformly correct answer to any question involving aesthetics!

Jim Caroll, thanks for your responses. I'm a little perplexed as to what you mean regards "spreading the fighting" to this thread, for happily I haven't witnessed any "fighting" here whatever thus far. Merely a reasoned debate between individuals exchanging different views in response to the question that I initially posted. A good thing IMO :-)

I do think it's a valid question for an interested beginner such as myself, and I appreciate the variety of informed feedback that has been offered from the experienced individuals amongst you.

Overall, the more uncertain I've gotten over the last few months about my possible (in)ability as a singer in this particular area, the more I've also realised that though I may never be a typically *good* folk singer in terms of some of the possible preferred qualities, I can nevertheless do the best with those qualities that I do have: I have a naturally clear, 'pretty' sounding voice, with a fairly classically "English" (ie: home counties - please note quotes!!) accent, a little light natural vibrato, and a complete love of singing - that verges on a compulsive habit!

I suspect overall the only thing that really matters is that I gain as much pleasure as I can from my own experience of singing. Because irrespective of whatever 'art' one is engaged in, if the 'artist' isn't having a ball doing it, nobody else is going to either! Though I have a funny feeling that that statement could be a highly contentious one... >Poster refers herself to fabled 'Everest-like' Manners thread!<

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:14 PM

I did not recommend it either,the point is that,
a folksinger by having listened a lot,has unconsciously absorbed other peoples styles,your grand father was not an island unto himself,he must have heard other singers,and without thinking[UNCONSCIOUSLY] about it absorbed style.
this is why Kentucky banjo players sounded different to Texas,Donegal fiddlers different to Kerry.
your remark about collectors is silly,if you knew anything about Jim Carroll,or heard any of the programmes of his collected singers,you would know he was too sensitive/sympathetic to say anything,as stupid as that.
youare also clouding issues by introducing traditional singers[and their environment; your grandfather]with the original poster who almost certainly is in a revival situation.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:15 PM

Above post, response to Alice

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

Alice,
We're all 'judgmental' about people's voices - whether we express our opinions to their faces or otherwise. It's call having 'taste' or 'preference'.
"Do you think a woman singing a lullaby 100 years ago would have the town telling her, you can't do that, you don't have the right kind of voice to sing!"
The singers we've recorded were not backward in expressing their opinions about the singing of others - or the 'right and wrong' way to sing - read the bits of interview we did with Walter Pardon in the Musical Traditions 'Enthusiasm' response I wrote under the title 'By Any Other Name'.
Richard's snide comments aside, surely there's no harm in giving your opinion on what is or is not 'folk', 'classical' or whatever - that's surely what we do all the time.
It is more often than not left to the listener or even posterity to decide which is what - I wonder if Beethoven called himself a 'classical' composer.
Rosie
""spreading the fighting"
Sorry - not the best turn of phrase - meant to be flippant; I was responding to Ref's comment on 'quality' of singing.
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 03:11 PM

Rosie, it sounds to me like you have a pretty good idea of how to go about it. Don't worry about it, just have fun! Enjoy!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Genie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:00 PM

Well, I'd say that Joan Baez, Loreena McKinnett, Leadbelly, Steve Earle, Odetta, Buffy St. Marie, Tom Rush, Iris DeMent, Greg Brown, Mary Travers, Gordon Lightfoot, Miriam Makeba, Elizabeth LaPrelle, Amos Jessup, Mick Lane, Kendall Morse, Bob Dylan, Dolly Parton (when she does folk songs), Mary Black and Leonard Cohen ALL "sound folk." On the other hand, Ethel Merman (a totally untrained singer, Julie Andrews (even when she sang folk songs), Elvis Presley, Eric Clapton, Julio Iglesias, Rod Stewart, Mick Jagger, Joan Sutherland, Josh Groban, Aretha Franklin, Norah Jones and Celine Dion do not.
What do those on the first list have in common that separates them from those on the second list?

(Oh, and I'm sure we could think of still more names to fit into either list that would expand the diversity within that list.)

"Folk" music encompasses so many subcategories and sounds, as does "non-folk" music, that I'm not sure there's anything that clearly defines a vocal sound as "not folk" unless maybe it's the uber-trained, full-throated, round-tone, "pure vowel" sound of an opera singer. Almost anything else, including "soul," "jazz," "blues," "rock," "country," and "r & b" might overlap with some "folk" sounds.

Then again, what do I know?

*g*

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM

A couple of posters touched on the need (or advantage) of using techniques to help projection and avoid injury. Singing is an athletic activity which uses various muscles. Whether you're self-taught or take some sort of lessons or coaching, every singer "learns" to sing. It is a skill and activity beyond mere talking. How you learn, and what you learn, will affect how you sound.

Some techniques and singing styles were developed for particular purposes. For example, I believe "operatic" singing includes vibrato in part to help differentiate the singer's voice from the instruments in the orchestra. I also suspect that some sea chanteys are to be sung in a very rhythmic way to help the crew hear the beat & work together. Then there are ornaments that might be unique to various countries/regions/time periods (I can't think of vocal examples, but the "snap" of Scottish fiddle music is one such).

When a person is learning to sing a song from a particular culture, is it not appropriate to at least consider using the stylings or ornamentation of that culture? I'm not talking about "accent" per se, but melodic interpretation.

Of course, you can have great fun taking a tune from one culture and applying the stylings from another - such as adding an Irish lilt to "Die Lorelei".

By the way, if you want an example of someone who intentionally chose to sing in an unornamented style, listen to early Suzanne Vega - esp. "My Name Is Luka". She could/can sing in different styles, but decided a bare-bones unadorned voice to separate herself from the "pop" crowd. Is that a "folk voice"? Or is it not, because it's not a "folk song" and the vocal styling was a decision rather than an accident?

Val

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM

Quoth Alice "If you want to sing, then SING!"

Sorry Jim, but that is EXACTLY (yes, I am shouting) what you have been saying on the other thread is not enough.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:38 PM

I feared this thread might fall prey to an inevitable downward spiral of argument. Sigh.

Rosie - There is some very good advice here the best of which is to do it because you enjoy it.

What I have also learned is to put more thought into the story I tell.   Think about how the story unfolds, what I can do vocally and physically to express appropriately and in such a way that it draws the listener in.   I need to pay as much attention to what I am saying as to how I sound.

This advice has been most helpful. Now can I actually put it into practice? Ah there's the rub!

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:40 PM

This is a minor aside in relation to a comment above regarding possible forced and conscious affectation of 'accent'.

With the (very few!) Scottish ballads I've learned so far, I've spent some time considering this question. For I neither wish to artificially fake an accent, *or* completely ignore the dialect within which the song is very naturally buried, and from which its words and meaning are forged.

So with those I've learned, I've looked at different (Anglo/Scots) versions, and tried for a middle way. That is singing the song naturally with my own voice/accent, in accordance with what I've got it writ on the page (or cobbled from other singers versions), while simultaniously heeding the specific peculiarities of dialect (rather than 'accent' as such).

Of course, whatever I do or don't do, to a Scottish person it'll always sound like an English person singing a Scottish song. But IMO that's OK, 'cos very simply, that's the honest fact of the matter!

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:46 PM

There seems to be a great deal of misconception about vibrato. It is not a unique and essential characteristic of the operatic voice, and classical voice teachers do not teach someone to sing with vibrato. It generally just happens.

Although some singing voices are very "straight," the vast majority of voices have at least a touch of vibrato. And it often happens that one day a singer may sing with quite a bit of vibrato, and the following day, not so much. It's an unconscious thing and seems to depend more on one's physical state at the time that anything else. This holds true for opera singers as well. There's almost always some vibrato there, but it seems to vary in width and intensity form day to day.

In fact, there are a number of well-known folk singers, including some traditional or "source" singers, whose voices have a fairly wide and fast vibrato. It seems most peculiar to me that so many folkies can hear it in classical voices and find it objectionable, but fail to hear it in the voices of singers they like.

One should neither try or try not to sing with vibrato. To do either one or the other introduces undue and unhealthy tension into one's vocal mechanism. Just leave it alone.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM

I forgot to ask as there are apparent professionals in da house. How does one lose vibrato? Especially if it was just picked up by listening to and imitating family members who were classically trained.

Sorry Rosie - don't mean to step on your thread, but seems the best place to ask without opening another thread of worms.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

Regards vibrato, interesting... Both my very ancient Irish Great Granny and my Birkenhead Nanna (both now dead) would sing with the most full-throttled, yet butterfly-winged vibrato. Both were extremely ordinary untrained women who simply sang a lot. In fact I think I inherited my own love of singing from Birkenhead Nan. Of course, like most poor people of their generations, they probably visited a few 'picture houses' during their younger years and unwittingly gained some 'aspirational' vocal artiices!?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

Richard,
You are not only shouting - you are becoming inarticulate - can you please explain that last sentence so I can respond.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM

singing the song naturally with my own voice/accent, in accordance with what I've got it writ on the page (or cobbled from other singers versions), while simultaniously heeding the specific peculiarities of dialect (rather than 'accent' as such)

Yes, it's a tough one. When I've sung Jenny's Complaint I've sung it in more or less standard English, because if I attempted the dialect it's written in I'd sound ridiculous. But the last verse begins

What can I dee? I naught can dee
But pine and whinge about him

...and then rhymes 'dee' with 'me', so I can't switch it to 'do'. Now, if I sang "What can I dee?" in my own accent it would sound stupid - as if I'd suddenly decided 'do' was pronounced 'dee' off my own bat. But if I suddenly dropped into my half-formed idea of what a Geordie accent should sound like -

THINKS: Why aye Newkie broon howay the lads
SINGS: What can I dee
THINKS:bonnie lad...

it would sound even worse. So I just try and make the 'dee' sound Geordie-ish and lean a bit on the vowels either side -
What can ah dee? Ah naught can dee
- and beat it back to the safety of my own accent as quickly as I can.

In next week's folk accent masterclass: Ee Bah Gum Is It Me Or Is It Getting A Bit Chilly?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

Before I went to a folk club, I'd been singing in school choirs, so may have picked up the voice projection and breathing from that...

Kitty

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:54 PM

What makes a folk voice? A finger so long that when shuvved in the ear it blocks the nose and firmly closes the eye lids!

ok i'm off

Sal

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM

This may be tangential to the original question, but if people are discussing what types of folk voices are pleasing to them, it seems to me that that discussion should at least mention the factor of cultural preferences.

For instance, it seems to me that smokey, deep voices and dirty sounds are much more preferred to pure voices and clean sounds in the traditional and contemporary African Disapora cultures of African Americans and Afro-Caribbean people. Maybe this applies to some traditional and some contemporary African cultures and other traditional & contemporary African diaspora cultures. But since I don't know these cultures that well, I didn't include them.

What I mean by the phrase "dirty sound" is the inclusion of laughing, moaning, clapping, stomping, whistles and other sounds
as well as the "rasps, yelps, growls, and other colorful voice modifications" that are mentioned in this quote from
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569475/singing.html

"Among the world's many singing styles, cultural choices are observable in the variations in tone, color, physical tension, and acoustical intensity. Cultural differences also exist in preferences for high- or low-pitched ranges, solo or choral singing, extensive or sparse melodic ornamentation, and the use or avoidance of rasps, yelps, growls, and other colorful voice modifications".

That article continues by indicating that:
The rich variety of vocal styles found in the U.S. includes the trained, resonant, well-projected tone of operatic singers; the relaxed, intimate sound of popular crooners; the tensely sung, high, ornamented melodic style of Appalachian folk singers; the relaxed, subtly ornamented, rubato singing of black folk musicians, sometimes augmented with rough, guttural effects; and the tense, electronically distorted sound of much rock singing. Where ancient Mediterranean and Asian civilizations once flourished, singing tends to be high-pitched, tense, and ornamented, and solo singing predominates; within this broad geographical area, however, sounds vary from the moderate-range, highly ornamented style of Indian classical singing to the thin, extremely high, well-projected tone found in Chinese opera. In sub-Saharan Africa, where an abundance of choral music is found, low voices for women and high, penetrating voices for men are favored. Many agricultural regions in central Europe also have strong choral traditions, characterized by a straightforward, open vocal tone".

-snip-

To share an example of how my cultural preferences {or should I say cultural expectations} cause me to prefer certain voice pitches over others, as an African American, I find some Nigerian singing {for instance, the women singing on the Olatunji "Drums of Passion" recordings, and recordings of Ethiopian singing that I have heard, to name two widely separated African cultures, to be too high pitched for my liking. I think this may be because of the Middle Eastern influence on these culture's vocal music...

And with regard to cultural auditory preferences in singing voices, read this excerpt of an article on a "Chinese Opera Experience":

"Did you see the file Farewell to My Concubine and wonder about the "squeaky" voice produced by that beautiful female character who was actually a man? Answering in the affirmative, this writer, a classically trained musician, was curious to learn why a style which appears to violate the principles of "correct" singing in Western music is considered aesthetically desirable in the Orient. Attending a three-hour performance by the China Peking Opera Theater raised more questions than it answered, since no program notes were available in English"...

http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/culture/0895_cu2.html

-snip-

The article never answered the writer's inital question...a question, like my comments, which may not have much to do with the core question of this thread, but might be of interest to some here anyway.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:50 AM

Snort! Evidently Don Firth and I were coming from antipodal points at the same time. We posted within seconds of each other.

So I have to just live with that trembly sound in my voice, which as Don correctly states varies from day to day and song to song.

Sigh. So be it then. Grumble grumble.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:00 AM

BTW...

The argument which has escalated to personal level is annoying.

Please stop it or take it to PM. Those who want to learn and share knowledge and experience will thank you for not exposing us to it.

Sorry Rosie... your thread, I know, but it needed to be said.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:12 AM

*Smile* This talk of vibrato and whether it's natural or learned or whatnot, just refreshed a memory.
My Birkenhead Nan used to call that vibrato like tremor her "Woggle"!
I think I'll store that little bit of highly technical terminology away in my brainbox, for fuddling people who may dissaprove of vibrato in future... ;-D

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:14 AM

I like that.... Woggle. That is beautiful bit of personal folk memory. Lucky you.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:48 AM

Sigh.

I am suggesting - indeed agreeing - that the desire to sing suffices. One does the best with what on has got. What one has got is the "folk voice" and some are better than others. That is "on-thread".

On the other thread Jim expressly says that the desire to sing is not enough.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:23 AM

Not judging RB or JC.

I understood what was said and what it meant. It is just tone was getting a bit hot between you. The interchange is not contributing positively to the thread.

That is all.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:58 AM

Re: Vibrato
I didn't used to think much about vibrato until I listened to a recording of my singing played a double speed. That made my vibrato VERY obvious & easier to analyze.

I was starting a note with vibrato, then that tapered into a more pure tone as the note was sustained. I realized I was not "hitting" the note correctly right at first, and used vibrato like a hunting dog to eventually sniff out the true pitch.

After realizing that, I made a point of practicing hitting the correct pitch right off, and only bringing in vibrato when I want to on sustained notes rather than using it as a crutch for sloppy singing.

Maybe I'm the only person thus afflicted, but I thought I'd share.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

You can turn vibrato off and on like a tap? Somebody teach me how.
Vibrato for me is uncontrollable trembling. Maybe I have it wrong and what I am suffering is something else.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Val, yeah, I kinda know what you mean and I do think there are possibly *some* singers that may use a forcible stylistic excess of vibrato as a lazy way of basically evading hitting, or sustaining the correct note. Local amateur operatic productions do spring to mind. Sorry to anyone who loves these...!

For me it's definitely harder to sustain a *long* clear note, without moving very naturally into a little vibrato. It's not something that happens automatically all the time, but I would have to work to consciously repress it. And I can think of ladies that I've heard where it sounds like just a natural thing all of the time.

But I think from some of the helpful feedback I've gained from this thread in particular, to try to forcibly inhibit my vioce's natural tendancies, wouldn't gain me anything other than a sore throat or possibly worse.

As I'm not a professional with a vocal coach. A bit of moderate self awareness guided by attempts at an objective critical ear, is the best I'm going to aspire to, for now.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM

I almost think we could be more productive discussing phrasing, diction, storytelling, relaxing and having some fun with the material rather than vocal quality, per se. Most people I have heard who used altered voices for different material sound contrived and false anyway.

I know I'm not a Scot, nor an Irishman, but I have enjoyed doing many songs of those lands. I just try to deliver the essense of the song, have a little fun with it and not worry too much about sounding "authentic."

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

From: Sleepy Rosie - PM
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM
"But I think from some of the helpful feedback I've gained from this thread in particular, to try to forcibly inhibit my vioce's natural tendancies, wouldn't gain me anything other than a sore throat or possibly worse."

I used to take singing lessons and during that time I had repeated bouts of tonsilitis, which was very debilitating. My teacher finally told me I should concentrate on playing the guitar, because my voice wasn't improving. My doctor prescribed speech therapy for me and the therapist, who was also a singing teacher, was willing to use singing exercises for the therapy, and I kept it up for a while paying for it myself, when the insurance no longer covered. Eventually, I stopped, and also stopped practicing singing.

Part of the problem was the kind of repertoire I wanted to sing, mostly German, American and British popular music of the 1920s through the 1940s. Sitting and playing the guitar is also not ideal for singing.

Some people can sing in strenuous ways and it doesn't seem to do them any harm. I can't. If I tried to sing like Jacques Brel, it would kill me.

The point of this, if it has a point, is that it's really a good idea to take care of one's voice, and if one abuses it, the consequences may be serious.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM

A question you might want resolve here:   is it a true vibrato, or is it an uncontrolled wobbling? The latter usually means a lack of good breath support, or possibly a bit of uncertainty as to the precise pitch you're trying to sing.

A normal vibrato, which most of the time and in most styles of singing, is desirable and is something that most people don't even notice, either in their own voices or in others—unless, of course, someone makes a fetish of it, and then it can become an obsession.

Just for kicks, I have just spent a most interesting hour bouncing all over YouTube, listening to opera singers such as soprano Anna Netrebko (!! She ain't no "fat lady," she's gorgeous!!), baritones Dmitri Hvorostovsky and Bryn Terfel (couple of pretty handsome dudes), and folk singers Ewan MacColl, Mary Black, Jean Ritchie, Pete Seeger, and a whole bunch of others. And they all exhibited vibrato in their singing! Surprise, surprise!

The idea that folk singers don't use vibrato is simply not true. What may mask this to many peoples' ears is that in short notes, vibrato doesn't have time to establish itself. But if a singer—folk or opera—sings a long, sustained note, it is most definitely there. What may make it more noticeable in the voices of opera singers is that the music they sing tends to have many more long, sustained notes.

Go to YouTube and listen for yourself. You'll hear it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM

From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

"You can turn vibrato off and on like a tap? Somebody teach me how.
Vibrato for me is uncontrollable trembling."

I'm no voice coach, so take any advice with a BIG grain of salt...

Remember that all the control of your voice involves muscles - tensioning the vocal chords, pushing air through them from your lungs (diaphragm and/or ribcage muscles), shaping your mouth & throat, etc. So what causes "uncontrolled trembling" in certain muscles? (I'm assuming this only happens when you're singing and is not due to a neurological condition).

Try this experiment: put your palms together in front of your chest then PRESS hard - as hard as you can. Do your arms start trembling? It's a normal reaction to muscles that are overly stressed but can't move.

OK, how do you apply this lesson to singing? If your voice quivers, it might be because some muscles are excessively tensed and working against each other. Try relaxing as much as possible - thinking about every muscle in your face, neck, throat, and chest (good posture is necessary so you can relax with your head balanced on your spine). Now, when relaxed, try to sing a note. Don't worry about tone, or which note, or projection - just get a constant sound. Do you still have the uncontrollable quivering? If so, can you feel what muscles are twitching? Can you focus your attention on them and "will" them to relax? If you don't have the quiver, try tightening up various muscles in your neck or chest one-at-a-time (or as close to that as you can manage) until you find the quiver again - then you'll know what part of your body you need to focus on relaxing to avoid the quiver during performance.

Once you have the issue identified, you can practice increasing volume, changing tone, singing on pitch, etc while keeping in mind how to prevent the quiver (it'll take practice to get your body out of its current habit patterns).

As for turning vibrator or tremelo "on & off", most people control vibrato with the throat muscles that control pitch from the vocal chords, but you can also use the back of the tongue or the overall mouth shape to change the tone somewhat. Tremelo (variation in volume, not pitch) is controlled mainly by the diaphragm.

As I said - singing is an athletic activity that requires use of various muscle groups. One really big key to better results is to work on conditioning those muscles for strength and endurance, to use the muscles you need in an efficient manner, and to relax the parts of your body that are not being used so they don't interfere with the parts that are working. (Yeah, I know... that's a straight line for some snarky comments - fire away!)

Then again, I could be full of BS. Play around with some ideas & see if they work for you, and feel free to ignore my idiocy if it doesn't work.

Val

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

Came here a bit late. Me too Sleepy Rosie. I'm 63 though. Been singing all my life. All sorts of songs -- whether they suit my voice or not. Funny effects at times. Tried a lot of things. My voice is one of those clear, pure ones. Not light though. I'm a throw-back to the musichalls. I never have fitted in with what has come to be the fashionable "folk-style" -- and that's the music I really love. Doesn't matter really. In my case a high singing voice does not mean a high speaking one. My speaking voice is quite low. I'm able to sing in that low range but it doesn't work for me.
I understand the problem of a voice like this getting in the way of the song. I dislike the use of "style" and the use of vocal tricks. When people compliment me on my voice, I'm gracious but a little disappointed. I know they've been distracted. I myself get distracted when I become conscious of trying to change my style. I don't want that. I want to sing songs because I love the songs. Have to keep singing the only way I always have. What a rave. Anyway I understand. Good luck. I'd love to meet you. Love to hear you sing and sing for you. Love to share a song or two.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Derby Ram
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:16 AM

Hmmmmm, If John Tams is a great narrator and storyteller_and_a very good singer...then in my book...that makes him a GREAT Singer!

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Staines Norris
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM

Dear Mudcat,

I have no experience of singer-songwriting, so what follows is directed at singers of Traditional Song - would-be or otherwise. Smoking, as I'm sure we all agree, is essential - since the smoking ban the folk voice is going soft, so make sure you smoke plenty of strong, unfiltered, hand-rolled snout, especially first thing in the morning. Beer is essential too, to obliterate all sense of self-consciousness thus enabling the subjective self to melt into the objective whole in a communion which is essential to becoming a truly successful folk singer*. Similarly, I recommend taking up Fox Hunting - or whatever passes for Fox Hunting in this day and age - the celebratory chase and Tally-Ho! over hedges, ditches, brooks and bridges without the first hand experience of which no singer should ever attempt to sing a hunting song - in fact, as in literature, only sing about what you know. It is also pretty essential to become a Medium, as each time we sing a traditional song we are conducting a seance with the ancestors, so some sort of Shamanic training is very important - if not, an injection of Liquid Ecstasy into the soft pink flesh just above the front teeth should do the trick**. Whilst on the subject of drugs - a big NO FECKING WAY! to cocaine, but a very definite YES PLEASE, MR LAWRENCE! to speed; and if you must use heroin, then for God's sake chase rather than mainline - how many singarounds have I been to where some poor old bastard has OD'd during the chorus of Dido, Bendigo... thus ruining it for everyone? Three this year - two last year - four the year before - one the year before that; 1996 was a particularly bad year, thanks to Danny Boyle (Oh Danny Boyle, the pipes and bongs are calling...). Remember - you don't have to do drugs to be a Folk Singer, but as a short cut to the personal & cultural paranoia so essential to being a folky they're hard to beat.

Your pal,

Mr Staines Norris.

* By which I don't mean famous, as most famous folk singers aren't successful in the slightest - just as most successful folk singers aren't in the slightest bit famous.

** Which is, of course, E-by-gum.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

Dear Staines Norris, I think you've just roughed up my voice most nicely. Still coughing and wheezing in fact. Cheers for the best laff I've had for a good while. Though I think you may have your wires crossed regards the fox hunting thing. Us poor common folk prefer such fun traditional village pastimes as 'badger baiting', 'cock fighting', 'dog fighting' and of course the ever popular 'badger in the bag'.
E by gum!

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

Over years of hearing many different people singing, "folk songs" in particular sung by adolescents and men, I have heard so many who sing through the nose, not always giving the most pleasing result.
Is it:-
a) Something to do with our physical make up?
b) Aping someone we heard?
c) Believing it is traditional "folk voice"?
d) Nasal air passage constrictions?
e) What some early posters referred to as head voice?
f) Is it possible to overcome it?
g) Do you hear many examples in the U.S.?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: jimslass
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:50 AM

Had in mind what I wanted to say then read Azizi's post which expanded upon it much more articulately and knowledgably than I could ever attempt.

However, 'does the team think' that it's not just the type of voice, but WHAT you're singing that counts. At our folk club we have two girls with very sweet, pure voices, and they kind of stick to a certain type of song - I can't imagine them doing something 'down and dirty' if you get me. They don't sing operatically, but it's a very smooth, pretty sound; when they join in with, oh, something like whiskey in the jar or last thing on my mind,etc etc, they sound as if they are singing out of their range, yet it isn't that they are ACTUALLY out of their range.
Sorry, as a non-singer, I don't have the vocabulary but I hope you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:54 PM

For me any voice that sounds good is a folk voice, a classical voice, a jazz voice, or any kind of voice. I don't differentiate between styles; either a singer does it for me or (s)he doesn't.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Joybell
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Down and dirty can work for those of us with sweet voices. The contrast can be interesting. There were a few sweet-voiced singers among the old blues singers. There've always been some among the traditional singers too. Jean Ritchie for example. Country music has some. We've always been around even when we weren't fashionable. If I like a song there's nothing I won't try.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

Very belated response to Pip Radish on 17 November: why are you trying (or not) to sing Jenny's Complaint in Geordie? It's Cumbrian.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:08 PM

You see my problem! Being ignorant but prudent, I try not to sing songs 'in' anything other than the English I speak. Which rules out a lot of songs of Scottish origin, in particular - I did do Twa Corbies once, but I was hideously embarrassed by my own performance & never wanted to repeat the experience.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:00 PM

Oooh, 100.


And I get really pissed off with people who criticise singing as "nasal".

Go away and join your local opera society.