What Makes a Folk Voice?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:28 PM

Guess I am bit of a cuckoo then.   I don't mind.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM

Bit of a drift I suppose, but - it never occurred to me that at least Charlie Musselwhite's and Mose Allison's singing accents were any different from their speaking accents. Don't know about the other Americans mentioned, since I've never heard them speak.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:12 PM

There's a difference, I believe, between singing a song as it was written -- if it uses regional words and accents -- and singing all songs in a "folk-voice". Whatever that may be according to fashion.
For example -- here in Australia I've heard the fashionable "folk-voice" change over the years. In the 60s it was an A. L. Lloyd voice. Now it's fake Irish.
I've often been asked why True-love sings with a "fake American voice". To which I say, "Because he's American". Strangly enough I've sometimes got the answer, "Well he's Australian now and he should sing like one!" By which they mean he should sound Irish with a few good old Aussie words thrown in.
Funny thing performing.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:14 PM

My experience is the opposite of Penny S's too, in that I believe I can sing in different "accents" or voices much more easily, and much better, than I can speak in them.

The topic of singing-in-an-accent seems to be much more controversial in the UK than in the US. It may have something to do with there being more different local and regional accents, and more clearly defined ones, over there than in the states, which is rapidly becoming a completely homogenized society.

But, there are so many good examples of British blues/rock singers who do a great job singing in American/African-American accents that are appropriate to their material.

A white singer, whether British or American or whatever, can sing in a "blues voice" that is both appropriate to the form and genuine for the person, and can do so without incorporating any of the falsity seen in unsympathetic "blackface-minstrel" performance. For example, consider Brits like Winwood, Clapton and Mayall, Americans like Butterfield, Musselwhite, Mose Allison, Greg Allman, etc., etc., etc.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Genie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:32 AM

Penny S, I seem to be just the other way around from you.   I find it a lot easier to 'do' accents when singing than when talking.
Of course, maybe that's mostly because when I sing I have a set 'script', as opposed to just speaking spontaneously with a consistent accent other than my own.   (I tend to naturally "pick up" accents of those around me whenever I spend any time in another country or region, without either trying to or realizing that it's happening.)

I hear some folks decrying the attempts of people who are not from their country/region to imitate their accents when doing their songs, because it's not "authentic."   I can sort of relate to that, I guess, in that when I hear a "bad" German or French accent, e.g., on TV or in a movie, I kind of cringe, chuckle, or groan.   But, being a Yank from, mostly, the US midwest and west coast (areas without easily identified strong regional accents), I must say it doesn't bother me in the least when singers from other parts of the world sing "American" songs and do a credible job of losing their own accents while doing so.   The Beatles, for instance, seldom sounded anywhere near as "Liverpudlian" when they sang as when they talked, and it gave their music a much wider appeal, I think. On some songs I don't think they even sounded especially "British."   I never thought of it as their "trying to imitate" someone else's accent, but I suppose in a way they were -- and it worked.
They are far from the only example.   

I think there are many singers who adapt their pronunciations and sound patterns to fit particular songs and do it well, even if the resulting "accents" are not fully believable (to someone from the region in question).

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:03 AM

It's a tricky thing finding the boundary between mocking and respecting. I used to read stories at school and do voices, and sometimes there were regional variations in characters which needed to be suggested, so I did. But I had an argument once with another member of staff who was adamant that I shouldn't read "Albert and the Lion", which I believe was performed by Stanley Holloway who was not from the north, in the way it was written. she was of the opinion that it shouldn't be read at all except by native speakers, as it just doesn't sound right in Received Pronounciation, or Dartford Estuarine. But we are supposed to expose children to poems from other cultures, eg those written in West Indian patois - how do we do that if we can't read it as written?

The issue of singing in an accent doesn't affect me, as stated above. Though I have performed carols in Dartford Estuarine, to show the children that they do sound better if they put in the "t"s instead of glo''al stops, and use "th", unvoiced or voiced, instead of "f" or "v". That's not so much an accent, though. I do stress that the Kentish people in Anglo Saxon times spoke with the latter version, so they aren't wrong in their speech, but that singing performance needs to match what the writer intended. Wouldn't want to knock their heritage.

Penny

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 06:59 PM

I can hear accents pretty well - usually to within about 30 miles in the UK (once lost a bet identifying an accent as a bit south of Oban when it was NE Ireland - about 40 miles from Oban!).

I can do accents tolerably. One of my tricks is to fascinate my law students by reading Lord Denning's judgments in a Mummerset accent. But I would not dream of taking the piss out of people or a culture by trying to do their songs in their local accent.

I really think MacColl was (for once) right (OK, his politics were right, by which I mean left) as were the critics group in saying that we should sing our own traditions (maybe "race memories" - oops here comes the BNP, and no my name is not on their membership list).

If you want to take the song of another and put it into your own tradition - sing it in your voice and accent. Otherwise you are a cuckoo.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM

Re accents. I have an odd problem there. I can do spoken accents - not sure how well, but I do hear a voice as a mouth shape (back inside, that is) and can mimic it. There's a sort of brain bypass direct from sound to making my mouth the shape that will reproduce the voice. However, I cannot do sung accents. It just doesn't work.

Penny

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:10 PM

Hello Rosie. I'm Australian married to an American. If you ever find yourself in the south-eastern area of Aus. Come stay with us. We could have some fun. True-love was born and raised in Iowa and I'm from Melbourne Australia -- raised in a home where we sang 19th century songs -- often American ones.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:57 PM

Joybell, casting my eye over the thread here just now, I realised I'd failed to respond to your ever such nice words!

Yeah, here's raising a glass to singing songs we enjoy: for ourselves, and for likeminded others to enjoy too.

'What a rave' you say. Are you American, and do you get Raves there? A Trad Folk Rave, now there's a thought I'd be interested to spend all night in a Ford Sierra driving around trying to find some muddy farmers field in Essex at 3am for. Pure folk culture at it's rootsy best ;-)

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

The idea that anybody should sing using only one tone seems odd to me - you certainly don't speak in one tone; it changes with the circumstances. If you have a wide repertoire which covers different types of song you need a repertoire of tones.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:44 PM

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam - PM
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM

"RE nasal singing. Many folk singers have a nasal voice. In my opinion in every experience this has enhanced the songs."

Sorry, what I wrote was a bit one-sided. I think you have a point. B.F. Shelton had a nasal voice and I love his singing. Too bad so little was recorded.

I don't recall whether Azizi addressed nasality in her very interesting posting, but I believe a nasal sound is often used in some non-Western singing. There's not just one right way to sing.

On the other hand, people who don't grow up in an environment where people sing a lot and it's just considered a normal thing to do have certain problems. Learning to sing "properly" (taking this term with a grain of salt) does have a value and doesn't necessarily lead to Disneyfication (something I dislike, too). It's not much good having an "interesting" voice if one damages it so much that one can't sing anymore after the age of, say, 40.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

From: Pip Radish - PM
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:08 PM

"You see my problem! Being ignorant but prudent, I try not to sing songs 'in' anything other than the English I speak. Which rules out a lot of songs of Scottish origin, in particular - I did do Twa Corbies once, but I was hideously embarrassed by my own performance & never wanted to repeat the experience."


I can understand this, but from my point of view, learning about accents and regional dialects is one of the most interesting aspects of folksong. The problem is unsolvable, for you, for me, for everyone. It would be a shame if nobody sang the songs, though. I love George Formby, but my Midwestern American accent isn't really quite right for his songs.

A great voice makes up for a multitude of sins. If one really devotes the effort to it, I'm sure one can make a reasonable stab at singing a song in a dialect not one's own. It also depends on the audience; not every situation demands the utmost in authenticity.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM

Richard, you get little lift from being post number 100? I get the same charge when the digital clock hits 11:11.

RE nasal singing. Many folk singers have a nasal voice. In my opinion in every experience this has enhanced the songs.

Who wants the run of the mill disneyesque "perfectly" formed sound? Not me. I like character, and unusualness.

Yep. Could someone plese recommend me to the peculiar voice club? I understand you have to have a reference.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:20 PM

'"f) Is it possible to overcome it?"

Yes.'

Sorry, this wasn't very helpful. I think it's possible to overcome it with the help of a good singing teacher, preferably one who's sympathetic to the kind of music one wants to sing. There is a kind of music that is favored by singing teachers because it's good for the voice and good for developing the voice, namely Italian bel canto. My teacher also wanted me to sing simple German art songs and arrangements of folksongs from the 19th century.

There's a lot of vocal music that's beautiful, but puts a great deal of strain on a voice. If one doesn't have much of a voice in the first place, take it from me, it's not a good idea.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:15 PM

From: GUEST,John from Kemsing - PM
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

"Over years of hearing many different people singing, "folk songs" in particular sung by adolescents and men, I have heard so many who sing through the nose, not always giving the most pleasing result.
Is it:-
a) Something to do with our physical make up?"

I don't think so.

"b) Aping someone we heard?"

Often, yes, I believe it is.

"c) Believing it is traditional "folk voice"?"

Possibly.

"d) Nasal air passage constrictions?"

Possibly.

"e) What some early posters referred to as head voice?"

No. I believe "head voice" is the same as falsetto. At any rate, my singing teacher (in Germany) called it "Kopfstimme", which literally means "head voice" and that's the same as falsetto. It's singing above "the break", which is something I can feel but can't explain. I'm sure someone here can. She told me not to worry about it too much, because there is always or almost always some element of "head voice" when we sing. I don't remember exactly what she said. I needed to go above the break to sing high notes. I can just about hit a D, but Eb is already a bit high for me (I have a rubbish range).

Just last weekend I was listening to a radio program about Swedish choirs and a prominent choir director was talking about "breast voice" being unhealthy. This makes some sense to me.

"f) Is it possible to overcome it?"

Yes.

"g) Do you hear many examples in the U.S.?"

I think so. I think it's the same problem.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:15 AM

Pip,
Most songs (few exceptions where dialect words are part of the structure) adapt to most accents - I've found that out with stacks of Irish songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:00 PM

Oooh, 100.


And I get really pissed off with people who criticise singing as "nasal".

Go away and join your local opera society.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:08 PM

You see my problem! Being ignorant but prudent, I try not to sing songs 'in' anything other than the English I speak. Which rules out a lot of songs of Scottish origin, in particular - I did do Twa Corbies once, but I was hideously embarrassed by my own performance & never wanted to repeat the experience.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

Very belated response to Pip Radish on 17 November: why are you trying (or not) to sing Jenny's Complaint in Geordie? It's Cumbrian.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Joybell
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

Down and dirty can work for those of us with sweet voices. The contrast can be interesting. There were a few sweet-voiced singers among the old blues singers. There've always been some among the traditional singers too. Jean Ritchie for example. Country music has some. We've always been around even when we weren't fashionable. If I like a song there's nothing I won't try.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:54 PM

For me any voice that sounds good is a folk voice, a classical voice, a jazz voice, or any kind of voice. I don't differentiate between styles; either a singer does it for me or (s)he doesn't.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: jimslass
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:50 AM

Had in mind what I wanted to say then read Azizi's post which expanded upon it much more articulately and knowledgably than I could ever attempt.

However, 'does the team think' that it's not just the type of voice, but WHAT you're singing that counts. At our folk club we have two girls with very sweet, pure voices, and they kind of stick to a certain type of song - I can't imagine them doing something 'down and dirty' if you get me. They don't sing operatically, but it's a very smooth, pretty sound; when they join in with, oh, something like whiskey in the jar or last thing on my mind,etc etc, they sound as if they are singing out of their range, yet it isn't that they are ACTUALLY out of their range.
Sorry, as a non-singer, I don't have the vocabulary but I hope you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

Over years of hearing many different people singing, "folk songs" in particular sung by adolescents and men, I have heard so many who sing through the nose, not always giving the most pleasing result.
Is it:-
a) Something to do with our physical make up?
b) Aping someone we heard?
c) Believing it is traditional "folk voice"?
d) Nasal air passage constrictions?
e) What some early posters referred to as head voice?
f) Is it possible to overcome it?
g) Do you hear many examples in the U.S.?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

Dear Staines Norris, I think you've just roughed up my voice most nicely. Still coughing and wheezing in fact. Cheers for the best laff I've had for a good while. Though I think you may have your wires crossed regards the fox hunting thing. Us poor common folk prefer such fun traditional village pastimes as 'badger baiting', 'cock fighting', 'dog fighting' and of course the ever popular 'badger in the bag'.
E by gum!

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Staines Norris
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM

Dear Mudcat,

I have no experience of singer-songwriting, so what follows is directed at singers of Traditional Song - would-be or otherwise. Smoking, as I'm sure we all agree, is essential - since the smoking ban the folk voice is going soft, so make sure you smoke plenty of strong, unfiltered, hand-rolled snout, especially first thing in the morning. Beer is essential too, to obliterate all sense of self-consciousness thus enabling the subjective self to melt into the objective whole in a communion which is essential to becoming a truly successful folk singer*. Similarly, I recommend taking up Fox Hunting - or whatever passes for Fox Hunting in this day and age - the celebratory chase and Tally-Ho! over hedges, ditches, brooks and bridges without the first hand experience of which no singer should ever attempt to sing a hunting song - in fact, as in literature, only sing about what you know. It is also pretty essential to become a Medium, as each time we sing a traditional song we are conducting a seance with the ancestors, so some sort of Shamanic training is very important - if not, an injection of Liquid Ecstasy into the soft pink flesh just above the front teeth should do the trick**. Whilst on the subject of drugs - a big NO FECKING WAY! to cocaine, but a very definite YES PLEASE, MR LAWRENCE! to speed; and if you must use heroin, then for God's sake chase rather than mainline - how many singarounds have I been to where some poor old bastard has OD'd during the chorus of Dido, Bendigo... thus ruining it for everyone? Three this year - two last year - four the year before - one the year before that; 1996 was a particularly bad year, thanks to Danny Boyle (Oh Danny Boyle, the pipes and bongs are calling...). Remember - you don't have to do drugs to be a Folk Singer, but as a short cut to the personal & cultural paranoia so essential to being a folky they're hard to beat.

Your pal,

Mr Staines Norris.

* By which I don't mean famous, as most famous folk singers aren't successful in the slightest - just as most successful folk singers aren't in the slightest bit famous.

** Which is, of course, E-by-gum.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Derby Ram
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:16 AM

Hmmmmm, If John Tams is a great narrator and storyteller_and_a very good singer...then in my book...that makes him a GREAT Singer!

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

Came here a bit late. Me too Sleepy Rosie. I'm 63 though. Been singing all my life. All sorts of songs -- whether they suit my voice or not. Funny effects at times. Tried a lot of things. My voice is one of those clear, pure ones. Not light though. I'm a throw-back to the musichalls. I never have fitted in with what has come to be the fashionable "folk-style" -- and that's the music I really love. Doesn't matter really. In my case a high singing voice does not mean a high speaking one. My speaking voice is quite low. I'm able to sing in that low range but it doesn't work for me.
I understand the problem of a voice like this getting in the way of the song. I dislike the use of "style" and the use of vocal tricks. When people compliment me on my voice, I'm gracious but a little disappointed. I know they've been distracted. I myself get distracted when I become conscious of trying to change my style. I don't want that. I want to sing songs because I love the songs. Have to keep singing the only way I always have. What a rave. Anyway I understand. Good luck. I'd love to meet you. Love to hear you sing and sing for you. Love to share a song or two.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM

From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

"You can turn vibrato off and on like a tap? Somebody teach me how.
Vibrato for me is uncontrollable trembling."

I'm no voice coach, so take any advice with a BIG grain of salt...

Remember that all the control of your voice involves muscles - tensioning the vocal chords, pushing air through them from your lungs (diaphragm and/or ribcage muscles), shaping your mouth & throat, etc. So what causes "uncontrolled trembling" in certain muscles? (I'm assuming this only happens when you're singing and is not due to a neurological condition).

Try this experiment: put your palms together in front of your chest then PRESS hard - as hard as you can. Do your arms start trembling? It's a normal reaction to muscles that are overly stressed but can't move.

OK, how do you apply this lesson to singing? If your voice quivers, it might be because some muscles are excessively tensed and working against each other. Try relaxing as much as possible - thinking about every muscle in your face, neck, throat, and chest (good posture is necessary so you can relax with your head balanced on your spine). Now, when relaxed, try to sing a note. Don't worry about tone, or which note, or projection - just get a constant sound. Do you still have the uncontrollable quivering? If so, can you feel what muscles are twitching? Can you focus your attention on them and "will" them to relax? If you don't have the quiver, try tightening up various muscles in your neck or chest one-at-a-time (or as close to that as you can manage) until you find the quiver again - then you'll know what part of your body you need to focus on relaxing to avoid the quiver during performance.

Once you have the issue identified, you can practice increasing volume, changing tone, singing on pitch, etc while keeping in mind how to prevent the quiver (it'll take practice to get your body out of its current habit patterns).

As for turning vibrator or tremelo "on & off", most people control vibrato with the throat muscles that control pitch from the vocal chords, but you can also use the back of the tongue or the overall mouth shape to change the tone somewhat. Tremelo (variation in volume, not pitch) is controlled mainly by the diaphragm.

As I said - singing is an athletic activity that requires use of various muscle groups. One really big key to better results is to work on conditioning those muscles for strength and endurance, to use the muscles you need in an efficient manner, and to relax the parts of your body that are not being used so they don't interfere with the parts that are working. (Yeah, I know... that's a straight line for some snarky comments - fire away!)

Then again, I could be full of BS. Play around with some ideas & see if they work for you, and feel free to ignore my idiocy if it doesn't work.

Val

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM

A question you might want resolve here:   is it a true vibrato, or is it an uncontrolled wobbling? The latter usually means a lack of good breath support, or possibly a bit of uncertainty as to the precise pitch you're trying to sing.

A normal vibrato, which most of the time and in most styles of singing, is desirable and is something that most people don't even notice, either in their own voices or in others—unless, of course, someone makes a fetish of it, and then it can become an obsession.

Just for kicks, I have just spent a most interesting hour bouncing all over YouTube, listening to opera singers such as soprano Anna Netrebko (!! She ain't no "fat lady," she's gorgeous!!), baritones Dmitri Hvorostovsky and Bryn Terfel (couple of pretty handsome dudes), and folk singers Ewan MacColl, Mary Black, Jean Ritchie, Pete Seeger, and a whole bunch of others. And they all exhibited vibrato in their singing! Surprise, surprise!

The idea that folk singers don't use vibrato is simply not true. What may mask this to many peoples' ears is that in short notes, vibrato doesn't have time to establish itself. But if a singer—folk or opera—sings a long, sustained note, it is most definitely there. What may make it more noticeable in the voices of opera singers is that the music they sing tends to have many more long, sustained notes.

Go to YouTube and listen for yourself. You'll hear it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

From: Sleepy Rosie - PM
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM
"But I think from some of the helpful feedback I've gained from this thread in particular, to try to forcibly inhibit my vioce's natural tendancies, wouldn't gain me anything other than a sore throat or possibly worse."

I used to take singing lessons and during that time I had repeated bouts of tonsilitis, which was very debilitating. My teacher finally told me I should concentrate on playing the guitar, because my voice wasn't improving. My doctor prescribed speech therapy for me and the therapist, who was also a singing teacher, was willing to use singing exercises for the therapy, and I kept it up for a while paying for it myself, when the insurance no longer covered. Eventually, I stopped, and also stopped practicing singing.

Part of the problem was the kind of repertoire I wanted to sing, mostly German, American and British popular music of the 1920s through the 1940s. Sitting and playing the guitar is also not ideal for singing.

Some people can sing in strenuous ways and it doesn't seem to do them any harm. I can't. If I tried to sing like Jacques Brel, it would kill me.

The point of this, if it has a point, is that it's really a good idea to take care of one's voice, and if one abuses it, the consequences may be serious.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM

I almost think we could be more productive discussing phrasing, diction, storytelling, relaxing and having some fun with the material rather than vocal quality, per se. Most people I have heard who used altered voices for different material sound contrived and false anyway.

I know I'm not a Scot, nor an Irishman, but I have enjoyed doing many songs of those lands. I just try to deliver the essense of the song, have a little fun with it and not worry too much about sounding "authentic."

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Val, yeah, I kinda know what you mean and I do think there are possibly *some* singers that may use a forcible stylistic excess of vibrato as a lazy way of basically evading hitting, or sustaining the correct note. Local amateur operatic productions do spring to mind. Sorry to anyone who loves these...!

For me it's definitely harder to sustain a *long* clear note, without moving very naturally into a little vibrato. It's not something that happens automatically all the time, but I would have to work to consciously repress it. And I can think of ladies that I've heard where it sounds like just a natural thing all of the time.

But I think from some of the helpful feedback I've gained from this thread in particular, to try to forcibly inhibit my vioce's natural tendancies, wouldn't gain me anything other than a sore throat or possibly worse.

As I'm not a professional with a vocal coach. A bit of moderate self awareness guided by attempts at an objective critical ear, is the best I'm going to aspire to, for now.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

You can turn vibrato off and on like a tap? Somebody teach me how.
Vibrato for me is uncontrollable trembling. Maybe I have it wrong and what I am suffering is something else.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:58 AM

Re: Vibrato
I didn't used to think much about vibrato until I listened to a recording of my singing played a double speed. That made my vibrato VERY obvious & easier to analyze.

I was starting a note with vibrato, then that tapered into a more pure tone as the note was sustained. I realized I was not "hitting" the note correctly right at first, and used vibrato like a hunting dog to eventually sniff out the true pitch.

After realizing that, I made a point of practicing hitting the correct pitch right off, and only bringing in vibrato when I want to on sustained notes rather than using it as a crutch for sloppy singing.

Maybe I'm the only person thus afflicted, but I thought I'd share.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:23 AM

Not judging RB or JC.

I understood what was said and what it meant. It is just tone was getting a bit hot between you. The interchange is not contributing positively to the thread.

That is all.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:48 AM

Sigh.

I am suggesting - indeed agreeing - that the desire to sing suffices. One does the best with what on has got. What one has got is the "folk voice" and some are better than others. That is "on-thread".

On the other thread Jim expressly says that the desire to sing is not enough.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:14 AM

I like that.... Woggle. That is beautiful bit of personal folk memory. Lucky you.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:12 AM

*Smile* This talk of vibrato and whether it's natural or learned or whatnot, just refreshed a memory.
My Birkenhead Nan used to call that vibrato like tremor her "Woggle"!
I think I'll store that little bit of highly technical terminology away in my brainbox, for fuddling people who may dissaprove of vibrato in future... ;-D

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:00 AM

BTW...

The argument which has escalated to personal level is annoying.

Please stop it or take it to PM. Those who want to learn and share knowledge and experience will thank you for not exposing us to it.

Sorry Rosie... your thread, I know, but it needed to be said.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:50 AM

Snort! Evidently Don Firth and I were coming from antipodal points at the same time. We posted within seconds of each other.

So I have to just live with that trembly sound in my voice, which as Don correctly states varies from day to day and song to song.

Sigh. So be it then. Grumble grumble.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM

This may be tangential to the original question, but if people are discussing what types of folk voices are pleasing to them, it seems to me that that discussion should at least mention the factor of cultural preferences.

For instance, it seems to me that smokey, deep voices and dirty sounds are much more preferred to pure voices and clean sounds in the traditional and contemporary African Disapora cultures of African Americans and Afro-Caribbean people. Maybe this applies to some traditional and some contemporary African cultures and other traditional & contemporary African diaspora cultures. But since I don't know these cultures that well, I didn't include them.

What I mean by the phrase "dirty sound" is the inclusion of laughing, moaning, clapping, stomping, whistles and other sounds
as well as the "rasps, yelps, growls, and other colorful voice modifications" that are mentioned in this quote from
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569475/singing.html

"Among the world's many singing styles, cultural choices are observable in the variations in tone, color, physical tension, and acoustical intensity. Cultural differences also exist in preferences for high- or low-pitched ranges, solo or choral singing, extensive or sparse melodic ornamentation, and the use or avoidance of rasps, yelps, growls, and other colorful voice modifications".

That article continues by indicating that:
The rich variety of vocal styles found in the U.S. includes the trained, resonant, well-projected tone of operatic singers; the relaxed, intimate sound of popular crooners; the tensely sung, high, ornamented melodic style of Appalachian folk singers; the relaxed, subtly ornamented, rubato singing of black folk musicians, sometimes augmented with rough, guttural effects; and the tense, electronically distorted sound of much rock singing. Where ancient Mediterranean and Asian civilizations once flourished, singing tends to be high-pitched, tense, and ornamented, and solo singing predominates; within this broad geographical area, however, sounds vary from the moderate-range, highly ornamented style of Indian classical singing to the thin, extremely high, well-projected tone found in Chinese opera. In sub-Saharan Africa, where an abundance of choral music is found, low voices for women and high, penetrating voices for men are favored. Many agricultural regions in central Europe also have strong choral traditions, characterized by a straightforward, open vocal tone".

-snip-

To share an example of how my cultural preferences {or should I say cultural expectations} cause me to prefer certain voice pitches over others, as an African American, I find some Nigerian singing {for instance, the women singing on the Olatunji "Drums of Passion" recordings, and recordings of Ethiopian singing that I have heard, to name two widely separated African cultures, to be too high pitched for my liking. I think this may be because of the Middle Eastern influence on these culture's vocal music...

And with regard to cultural auditory preferences in singing voices, read this excerpt of an article on a "Chinese Opera Experience":

"Did you see the file Farewell to My Concubine and wonder about the "squeaky" voice produced by that beautiful female character who was actually a man? Answering in the affirmative, this writer, a classically trained musician, was curious to learn why a style which appears to violate the principles of "correct" singing in Western music is considered aesthetically desirable in the Orient. Attending a three-hour performance by the China Peking Opera Theater raised more questions than it answered, since no program notes were available in English"...

http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/culture/0895_cu2.html

-snip-

The article never answered the writer's inital question...a question, like my comments, which may not have much to do with the core question of this thread, but might be of interest to some here anyway.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:54 PM

What makes a folk voice? A finger so long that when shuvved in the ear it blocks the nose and firmly closes the eye lids!

ok i'm off

Sal

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

Before I went to a folk club, I'd been singing in school choirs, so may have picked up the voice projection and breathing from that...

Kitty

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM

singing the song naturally with my own voice/accent, in accordance with what I've got it writ on the page (or cobbled from other singers versions), while simultaniously heeding the specific peculiarities of dialect (rather than 'accent' as such)

Yes, it's a tough one. When I've sung Jenny's Complaint I've sung it in more or less standard English, because if I attempted the dialect it's written in I'd sound ridiculous. But the last verse begins

What can I dee? I naught can dee
But pine and whinge about him

...and then rhymes 'dee' with 'me', so I can't switch it to 'do'. Now, if I sang "What can I dee?" in my own accent it would sound stupid - as if I'd suddenly decided 'do' was pronounced 'dee' off my own bat. But if I suddenly dropped into my half-formed idea of what a Geordie accent should sound like -

THINKS: Why aye Newkie broon howay the lads
SINGS: What can I dee
THINKS:bonnie lad...

it would sound even worse. So I just try and make the 'dee' sound Geordie-ish and lean a bit on the vowels either side -
What can ah dee? Ah naught can dee
- and beat it back to the safety of my own accent as quickly as I can.

In next week's folk accent masterclass: Ee Bah Gum Is It Me Or Is It Getting A Bit Chilly?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

Richard,
You are not only shouting - you are becoming inarticulate - can you please explain that last sentence so I can respond.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

Regards vibrato, interesting... Both my very ancient Irish Great Granny and my Birkenhead Nanna (both now dead) would sing with the most full-throttled, yet butterfly-winged vibrato. Both were extremely ordinary untrained women who simply sang a lot. In fact I think I inherited my own love of singing from Birkenhead Nan. Of course, like most poor people of their generations, they probably visited a few 'picture houses' during their younger years and unwittingly gained some 'aspirational' vocal artiices!?

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM

I forgot to ask as there are apparent professionals in da house. How does one lose vibrato? Especially if it was just picked up by listening to and imitating family members who were classically trained.

Sorry Rosie - don't mean to step on your thread, but seems the best place to ask without opening another thread of worms.

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:46 PM

There seems to be a great deal of misconception about vibrato. It is not a unique and essential characteristic of the operatic voice, and classical voice teachers do not teach someone to sing with vibrato. It generally just happens.

Although some singing voices are very "straight," the vast majority of voices have at least a touch of vibrato. And it often happens that one day a singer may sing with quite a bit of vibrato, and the following day, not so much. It's an unconscious thing and seems to depend more on one's physical state at the time that anything else. This holds true for opera singers as well. There's almost always some vibrato there, but it seems to vary in width and intensity form day to day.

In fact, there are a number of well-known folk singers, including some traditional or "source" singers, whose voices have a fairly wide and fast vibrato. It seems most peculiar to me that so many folkies can hear it in classical voices and find it objectionable, but fail to hear it in the voices of singers they like.

One should neither try or try not to sing with vibrato. To do either one or the other introduces undue and unhealthy tension into one's vocal mechanism. Just leave it alone.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What Makes a Folk Voice?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:40 PM

This is a minor aside in relation to a comment above regarding possible forced and conscious affectation of 'accent'.

With the (very few!) Scottish ballads I've learned so far, I've spent some time considering this question. For I neither wish to artificially fake an accent, *or* completely ignore the dialect within which the song is very naturally buried, and from which its words and meaning are forged.

So with those I've learned, I've looked at different (Anglo/Scots) versions, and tried for a middle way. That is singing the song naturally with my own voice/accent, in accordance with what I've got it writ on the page (or cobbled from other singers versions), while simultaniously heeding the specific peculiarities of dialect (rather than 'accent' as such).

Of course, whatever I do or don't do, to a Scottish person it'll always sound like an English person singing a Scottish song. But IMO that's OK, 'cos very simply, that's the honest fact of the matter!