How traditional should it be?

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

Cool!!!!!

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM

That banjiman!

Don't go near HIS club, I went there and told 'im straight. I said, I'm a modern post punk traditionalist mixing sampled sounds with whalesong. You owe it to the environment to give me a gig.

Wotta bastard!

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:07 AM

"Or is a song only really acceptable by the trad. lobby if no-one knows who composed it?"

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! I really, really, really don't want to start another definitions thread, but I think that it was Bert Lloyd who said that the fact that many songs in the British Tradition have no known authors is purely an accident of history. It's a 'red herring'. It's like believing that it can't be a sports car unless it's got a 'go-faster' stripe on the side.

The trouble with many 'modernisers', as far as I'm concerned, is that they don't really understand what traditional song is. They set up their own model - and then modernise that - and they always end up with something which sounds suspiciously like rock music ...

Finally,

"...the attitude that change is GOOD is always wrong, too."

Amen to that!

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:53 AM

"That smutty little term 'folk police' often raises its ugly head on such as these debates ; if there is such an animal I suggest they are well represented by those performers who say "we do what we do and that's that - now give us a booking or I'll put your name on Mudcat"."

As a club organiser no one has ever said that to me....... is it supposed to be some form of threat? Can't see that it would achieve anything? All club organosers have to turn people down.

Confused. North Yorkshire

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM

"While I don't agree with the club's philosophy, I find it refreshing that a venue exists where patrons can know in advance what they're paying for."
Agree absolutely - also with Greg Stephens.
While I find the club's definition of 'traditional' debatable, they have the right to put on whatever they choose - would that there were more of them about using ANY definition of folk music.
Some people, me included, believe that the song tradition ceased to be a living entity when the communities with such traditions opted for East Enders and became recipients of rather than participants in their culture. I don't believe that to be a reason for not including songs that have been made using folk forms - but in the end the decision has to rest with club organisers.
That smutty little term 'folk police' often raises its ugly head on such as these debates ; if there is such an animal I suggest they are well represented by those performers who say "we do what we do and that's that - now give us a booking or I'll put your name on Mudcat".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM

Not advisable with a name like Will Fly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM

Where did I say that? I thought I said quite the opposite.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:52 AM

I'll get me razor...

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:33 AM

Is Youtube traditional?

I can find no mention of Youtube in the 1954 definition.

Anybody who gets involved with that sort of thing has no place in the tradition. They should have their nobs cut off with a rusty razor, and not be given any bookings - anywhere.

Harsh, but fair when we have a tradition to defend.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:24 PM

The 1954 definition is the 1954 definition. But you all knew I'd say that.

Mysha, you confuse form or function with derivation and definition.

Don, this would not have something to do with a spat you had about your version of teh Cuddy Wren, somewhere near Rottingdean, would it?

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:38 PM

Faye, the attitude that change is GOOD is always wrong, too.
Change for its own sake is something I've subscribed to in the past, but I'm at the 'mature reflection' time-of-life.

Coincidentally, I was burning copies of some of my old LPs and came across 'Flannigans Ball,' by the stated songwriter, Brendan O'Dowda. Not as complete as, nor as good as (IMO) the presently popular 'Lannigans Ball.'
One case where change is good. It just isn't necessarily, always.

I'm glad you get plenty of gigs. Are you on Youtube yet?

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:25 PM

Go Cubs!!!

Art

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

Well I am new round here...

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

Hi Faye,

Uh oh...

Is it me or on that last post did you just re-open the bottomless, never-ending, sensational and-another-thing-tastic Mudcat...


Can.



Of.



Worms...

Run! Run for the hills! Whilst you still can...


(only joking. Ish...)

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM

Phew! Some strong views expressed here!

Let me re-iterate: I don't care about getting a gig at this club. If he chooses not to book me because he doesn't like my voice, guitar playing, choice of songs or the colour of my shoes that's absolutely fine by me- there are plenty of others who do. (Not bragging- just being honest- honestly!) So let's leave me out of the discussion!!!

I'm pleased to see that most people seem to think, to a greater or lesser degree that there is room for individuality in one's performance. That does not devalue the purists (I don't use that word in a negative way), who are also entitled to their opinions.

What bugs me a bit though, is the attitude that ANY kind of change is ALWAYS wrong. Someone once heard "The Blacksmith", for example, and came up with a tune for it which is just as good as the original (imo anyway). I don't know when this was, but does it matter if it was 150 years ago, 50 years ago or last week? What about (wishful thinking coming up) if someone picks up on my tune for "The Outlandish Knight", starts singing it and people are still singing it in 100 years? Will it then become "traditional enough?" Surely some of Ewan McColl's or Cyril Tawney's songs are now traditional? Or is a song only really acceptable by the trad. lobby if no-one knows who composed it?

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:03 PM

You can always tell people have run out of arguments, when they start calling people Nazis. Unless the people are Nazis of course, which is unlikely in the case of a trad orientated folkie club organiser.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:57 AM

You have to decide if you are singing for your fellow singers or singing for the audience. Self-indulgence or the paying customer. Teaching or entertaining.


Well I do both. I do love digging and finding odd stuff. And really like getting people to join in. My problem is there is so much information. It gets a bit woolly what is trad, what is later version or cultural splinter.

Mudcat is the place to go I guess, but then, you get so many differeing views.

Urrgghh

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Mysha
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:29 AM

Hi,

Ooh, this is a biggie. (I had to go to work first, or I wouldn't have had the time to answer.)

Let's see:
On the "rules": I can't imagine anyone to tick off the rules like that; this must be a constructed example. If it's not constructed out of generalisation, I would expect it to be constructed by condensing a much longer conversation. Faye, did you maybe press the man for a more exact justification than just "It's not traditional enough!"? Maybe he came to a point where he had to put it down to these rules, where he wouldn't have done so otherwise.

On the heritage policy: If the club wanted only musicians that specialised in heritage music, the organiser probably would have approached this differently. But if it was just about heritage music, I'm not sure how the organiser got the impression that Faye and her friend would be unwilling to play that. Still, if people feel they ought to be respected for what they believe to be a good choice of music, then the club and the organiser ought to be respected for doing the same. Obviously, they don't all see it the same way, but that's humans.

There's a general issue here, regarding heritage music, that most have probably heard before: Though people can ask for heritage music, music that existed in that shape through the generations, we have very little to determine what music looked like before. Even now, recorded music is only a window on how music is played. So the most we can ask for is actually music as it has been played for the last few generations. And indeed, that's usually what people want when they ask for heritage music, as this basically will give them music that all concerned know in that form.

There's a curious duality in the way heritage influences tradition. Counter to what one would expect, in most cases heritage is the lesser part in tradition: Think of how few traditions we have that existed in that same form even fifty years ago. Indeed, if heritage is the major part, that's an usually an indication a tradition is dying: If there's no interest in it any more, people will no longer add to it, and all that's left is what was done by those who went before. I guess that's part of what in folk music makes some people scared of having stress on heritage music. But the folk tradition, like any other stream of style, is defined in part by its extremes. If you were to outlaw heritage music, you would be narrowing the mainstream of traditional music. Then there would be a new extreme some people would dislike. One could forbid that as well, etc., but there's probably no benefit to folk music to do any such thing; it just makes the stream of folk music narrower. Let people search their own grail in traditional music, whether they're musicians, historians, or organisers.

On doing things outside the main stream: Of course it's OK to do so. If anyone wants to add something new or retrieve something old that isn't in the main stream of traditional music, that just means the folk tradition is alive. It's not messing; it's a kind of evolutionary process. Music historians at one point suggested an as yet unknown historical composer might have written all those great traditional tunes, but what really happens is that everyone in the tradition tinkers with it: Maybe just a word that has gone out of fashion, just a caesura, or equally shifting stuff around or rewriting it. And the versions fittest for survival in the tradition of that time survive, letting the tradition evolve to what fits its day. Those great tunes and songs exist and survive, not in spite of us changing them, because of us doing so. The problem with all this is, of course, that any specific change that is made may actually be worse; something that will eventually be left on the wayside of the road the tradition is travelling. Or it may be an improvement to some, but a destructon to others. So while everyone should feel free to add to the tradition, no-one should expect those changes to be accepted by all.

On the changes Faye and her friend made: Well, personally, I'm not a fan of adding instruments that the music wasn't written for. I feel that, generally, it subtracts from both the instrument and the music. That doesn't mean you can't play pan-pipes in the tradition of the British Isles, but to do it well would probably require developing a British Isles style of playing those pipes, as well as slight changes to the melodies to accommodate the instrument. But the change of the tune, the new lyrics and the new melody, I hope we'll hear more detail about those. Wouldn't it be a bit cruel to tell us about these improvements, yet not actually tell them what they are?

That's the short version of what I wanted to say, I guess. I hope it adds something to the discussion,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:28 AM

I just don't think it's fair to refer to the organizer as a "petty Hitler" or "musical bigot" or "twit". He probably has more traditional performers asking for gigs than he can realistically book. He has to pick and choose. He made a judgement call which he was entitled to make. He doesn't deserve to be insulted.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM

""While I don't agree with the club's philosophy, I find it refreshing that a venue exists where patrons can know in advance what they're paying for.""

Fair point, Dick, but only if the patrons share the blinkered view of the musical bigot concerned. I would be more inclined to believe that they simply accept what this twit deigns to give 'em.

The test would be their reaction to Faye's performance. If they applauded enthusiastically, rather than a short, polite, ripple, then the music was acceptable to them.

If they did not, I would be surprised if Faye were to ask for a booking.

All in all, it seems that everyone loses except the petty Hitler who runs it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:13 AM

"I just wondered what the attitude is towards "messing" with traditional music in this way- is it OK, is it OK if you state what you're doing and don't pass it off as the original thing, or is it completely beyond the pale."

There isn't an "okay" or "not okay". Do what you want. Some people will like it, some people won't. Just keep singing the songs.

I love traditional music sung absolutely traditionally, but one of my favourite tracks of the year is Jim Moray's grime version of Lucy Wan.

Personal taste, horses for courses, live and let live, etc. It's only when people who don't really understand traditional music are dismissive and disparaging about it, or when someone incessantly shoves their own musical taste down my throat, that I start to get shirty.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:53 AM

The fallacy that wrecks all discussions like this is the assumption that some people make roughly along these lines: if someone runs a club for traditional song singing, it means they disapprove of non-traditional songs.
Which is transparent nonsense, but it is endlessly repeated, as an attitude to be attacked, often in the most vicious way. Ewan McColl(see remark in previous post), for example, was perfectly relaxed about listening to, and performing, music from outside his own cultural experience.He recorded "John Henry", for example. What he actually did that gave rise to this myth was to be involved in the running of one club which tried out the exclusive policy of singing songs from peoples' own indigenous experience(however you decide the meaning of that is another question!).He never said that other clubs should be like that.
I've got shelves of CDs of trad songs. I've got shelves of Cds of singer/song writers.
I go to pubs that serve beer. I go to Moslem cafes that don't.Each type of establishment has its own style, and why not? Live and let live. surely?

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Musket
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:41 AM

Ewan McColl always used to say you should only sing what is indigenous to you.

A bit rich coming from a Salford lad who changed his name to something Scottish sounding and developing an accent he never really had. You could forgive him though, as if it wasn't for him, we would not have such incredible songs to learn and play...

Going back 30 years when I first started getting up at a club, I was given a polite welcome despite the (looking back) rather awful quality of what I did and made some real good friends. I was told that a nearby village had a club and perhaps I would go there as well?

I was full of trepidation as I was told they only liked traditional music and hitherto, I had written my own songs. Didn't do anything traditional. However, I borrowed an Ina Campbell song book, found an obscure song, learned it and set off.

Forgot how the words went just as I was starting. Thought b&@ger it, put the guitar down and did Monty Python's Horace Poem.

Went down a treat as I recall....

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM

Terry McDonald:
Will - you play in a ceilidh band and they don't feed you during the interval? I was in a folk dance band for 18 years and we tended to judge gigs on the quality of the (always provided)supper.

Oh yes - we invariably get fed. We just take it in turns to eat and play! We also tend to judge gigs on the quality of the turnout and the fee! What we often forget to do is go to the Offie (Off-license shop for beer, for US friends) beforehand to get the beer in! So many of our gigs are often in village halls with no alcohol license - it's a case of BYO.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:28 AM

I am not saying,where the club is,but I am sure,the reason is nothing to do with Faye,but is for another reason entirely.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:23 AM

Will - you play in a ceilidh band and they don't feed you during the interval? I was in a folk dance band for 18 years and we tended to judge gigs on the quality of the (always provided)supper.

On the main thread, I'm with those who wonder if the organiser, despite the quality of the performance, simply didn't take to it and had to think up an excuse for not offering a booking.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:14 AM

Greg - I think you're right, it obviously is just me! And I do need to get involved more. Though that in itself's been a source of frustration to me, for as I say, though I have friends who play broadly 'fusion' types of folk, I don't personally know anyone besides myself in my own age range, with any interest in learning more traditional stuff. Bar one lass, who I've kinda encouraged along with me and she was initially disinterested thinking 'traditional' meant formal and stuffy. I do know older friends who used to regularly attend Whitby and dance in Morris Sides and so-on. As said, I believe you are correct, it must simply be down to lack of sufficient involvement. No doubt that'll change in time. I genuinely hope so too, because I'd love to get to know more people that I could learn and sing and play with for fun!
I'll duck out of here now, and let the thread return to topic.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:53 AM

Just a quick footnote to my previous post, with apologies for taking up yet more space.

I didn't wish to imply that performers, by changing, adding to, etc., should not also have a role in preserving the tradition. At the dances where the music is provided by the ceildh band I play in, we play traditional tunes for traditional dances - albeit with a little bit of a groove... In the interval, while people are often eating, two of our players play traditional tunes on fiddle & guitar for 20 minutes or so, then the melodeon player lays down his melodeons, picks up his tenor and alto saxes and does jazz duets with me on guitar. Always goes down well.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: pavane
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:39 AM

"Farewell, Farewell" by Richard Thompson, sung by Sandy Denny, is an example of a modern song to trad tune, which might itself pass as trad.

(Not that I fully understand the meaning though.)

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:36 AM

In my experience, for what it's worth, when you're looking for bookings in folk clubs you might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince. There's every kind of club under the sun and, as I mentioned above, you simply have to find, by trial and error, the ones that like what you do. Look at what John Kelly (Harmonium Hero) is doing at the moment and take heart.

The folk club in question is in no position to dictate what's traditional and what isn't [Anahata]. I agree - but - they are in a position to dictate who they want, and would-be guests have to accept it. I would also agree with Anahata that you should stick to what you want to play and how you want to play it.

I recall my first experience of the folk clubs of the mid-60s which, at that stage, seemed to be subcutaneously morphing (and I do love a subcutaneous morph) from the original folk song and dance clubs to more eclectic places. I recall sitting through a 24-stanza of "Lord Randall" sung by an educated chappie in Leeds who pronounced it throughout as "Lawd Rwandall" - not quite an R and not quite a W - and thinking, "This ain't for me". Nothing wrong with Lord Randall, I hasten to add - and nothing wrong with the guy's singing. I was young, experimenting with guitar, naive, open to ideas - and I just wanted something different. Like many another I gravitated to the Cousins in Greek Street and lapped up the music of Davy Graham, Renbourne, Jansch, Al Stewart, John Martyn, Mike Chapman, Ian Anderson (Village Thing Ian - not J. Tull Ian), Mike Cooper, Alexis Korner, Duffy Power, Mox, the Pigsty Hill Light Orchestra - and on and on for ever.

I'm not name-checking to be clever, here - just trying to demonstrate that one of the functions of people breaking into the game, into the "tradition", is to invigorate, to synthesise, to change, to add. I was playing in a jazz band in a pub in Peacehaven one evening in the early 80s. Bob Copper was in the audience. I asked him, not too curiously, I hope, whether he was enjoying the evening. He told me he loved jazz, and that the favourite modern song of his Dad - Jim - was "Brother Can You Spare A Dime". Now I WOULD have liked to have heard Jim Copper sing that...

So at the risk of being boring, to recap: Do your own thing, Faye & Friend - stick at it - bring your own sounds and style with you.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: treewind
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:43 AM

I think this thread is mistitled.
The folk club in question is in no position to dictate what's traditional and what isn't (and evidently isn't competent to make that judgement anyway), and there's no point in making an effort to comply with their mysterious code. Not even if you are desperate for a booking at that club. I'd guess that "not trad enough", or "too trad" or any other excuse the club organiser makes really means either "not good enough" (I'm not suggesting this applies to Faye + friend) or much more likely "not famous enough". No point in arguing about it, just look for gigs elsewhere - they will happen! "de gustibus non disputandum"¹

As for your choice of material and style, do what works best for you and what you believe in. In the end that's what will work best because it will generate energy and enthusiasm that you can communicate to an audience. I've seen someone trying for a gig at a club, singing material that he evidently wasn't comfortable with because it was what he thought it was in keeping with the club's booking policy. It didn't work; sticking to what he knew best might actually have worked better.

Anahata

¹"there's no accounting for taste"

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:37 AM

If what you're asking is whether we agree with the 'not trad enough' criticism, then:

i) Apart from our strictly trad. stuff, we do a song which consist of original words to a trad. tune.

ii) We do another trad. song that we sing to a tune that normally belongs to another song, and

iii) We sing some trad. lyrics to a tune of our own composition.

ii and iii were good enough for Nic Jones, to name but one, so I wouldn't worry about those for a second. Original lyrics to a trad tune essentially makes a new song, so I guess you might want to drop that one the next time you're trying to impress an ultra-traditionalist. But I find it hard to imagine many FCs objecting - the ones I know certainly don't suffer from excessive traditionalism.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: pavane
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:36 AM

Oh yes, bagpipes are also very traditional

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: pavane
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM

Quote "What is wrong with running a strictly traditional club?"
The problem is "Who decides what is traditional?"

1. Most of our songs "as collected" are not. They are often imperfect recollections of printed songs, often with known composers.

2. Most of our instruments are not.
You have to remove all free-reed instruments (Accordion, harmonica, concertina), invented since 1830. Guitar is not traditional either, at least in British folk singing. Maybe harp, whistle and fiddle would be acceptable.

3. Harmony is not traditional either, with a few exceptions.

4. As note above, most of the singers of "traditional" material have altered or replaced tunes.

Doesn't leave much, does it?

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:17 AM

It sounds to me, like Dick and others on this thread, that the organiser was doing a "fob off" line ...after all, if his words are taken at face value that would mean virtually no one could get a gig at his club. Martin Carthy and Nic Jones have both sung trad words to a tune of their own composition or a tune belonging to another song, for example, and although there may be some performers of trad material who have never done this there aren't many of them around.

There are all kinds of "fob off" lines around. Sometimes, as performers, we've compared notes, and almost anything will disqualify you for a gig with some clubs. Being female, being male, being a songwriter, not being a songwriter, being funny, not being funny ... the list is almost endless. Shrug your shoulders and move on!

Anne

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:14 AM

Another post lost in space.

Tam, you aren't 'wrong' to sing obscure variants, but the blank looks that most of the audience have should tell you that they are wondering why they can't join in, that they came here to be entertained or to sing along. They probably won't leave thinking "That was an interesting variant!" although some of the other singers might just do that. You have to decide if you are singing for your fellow singers or singing for the audience. Self-indulgence or the paying customer. Teaching or entertaining.

This is just my opinion. 40 years in the forming. But I started out thinking as you do.

Unusual, little-known songs are different to obscure variants. IMO.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:44 AM

"is it OK, is it OK if you state what you're doing and don't pass it off as the original thing, or is it completely beyond the pale."

Every singer will have a slightly different interpretation of these songs; every musician will arrange them differently. Even

Maryrrf, the "fuck 'em" was I think a perfectly valid response to the dreary and ahistorical bullshit approach to folksong that appears to have been adopted by this club. One, we can't possibly kow how thesesongs sounded when they were first written and two Fred Jordan doesn't sound like Nic Jones doesn't sound like Mawkin Causley. The interpretation and presentation of traditional music is not and can never be static. Those who would seek to impose stasis are not doing the music any favours.

A few people may like that misplacedly rigid approach - bully for them. Their loss.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:58 AM

Damnit! Did not mean to spell you name wrong Sue. Gonna start a BS thread on what the hell is going on with my typing.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:55 AM

See I am hopeless. Can't even spell it properly. Thanks Suegorgeious.

altering traditional songs, as well as the singing of obscure variants, to a general audience, is self-indulgence

Really? I thought I was doing good, seeking out little known versions of trad stuff and learning and performing. Thought this is not the same old same old.

Everything I do is wrong.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:37 AM

The organiser didn't want to present your stuff. Fair enough, in my opinion. He presents what he wants, and your repertoire didn't meet his stylistic preference. OK, he puts the money out, and quite possibly makes a loss in the running of his club.
I've been on both sides of this dilemma, and (as a singer) worked up a repertoire to fit the occasion, which is easy enough for a trad club, because you don't have to worry about accompaniments.

I've also come to the opinion that altering traditional songs, as well as the singing of obscure variants, to a general audience, is self-indulgence, and I wouldn't do it. Nowadays. Have done, of course. Maybe a lot of people go through it.

I wish you every success. If you go back to the club, ask if he considers the guitar a 'traditional' instrument.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Derby Ram
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:29 PM

Surely, it's not a matter of the validity (or otherwise)of having a strictly traditional music policy - it's more to do with whether the individual concerned fully understands what it actually is and what it's grey area parameters might be. He should understand that there is no clean cut line of definition. Traditional music is not a song or a tune or an interpretational style - it's more a manner of existence and mode of transport - I mean it's more to do with how it got there and what allows it to continue to thrive, develop and progress naturally - that's the oral and 'by ear' bit - and perhaps its simplicity of form. Over sophistication itself can be a 'quick kill' factor for a potential piece of traditional music - making it less accessible to the vast majority of people who might be inspired to have a go at singing or playing it.

Any piece of material that lives among the people by unwitting election and can be performed and passed on without the aid of falsified media promotion campaigning (ie; endless manufactured boy bands, Maria Carey 'sound-alikes' and 'victims' of 'Fame Academy etc;)stands a good chance of qualifying in my book.

On the 'refusal to offer a booking' issue - he had his reasons - even if he wasn't completely sure what they were in tangible terms - Faye, I think understands this and will likely not continue to bash her sword on a rock - go gal - you're music and philosophy appears fine to me.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:49 PM

Folks, bear with me, please. I think I'll indulge myself and mix a few metaphors!

-------------------------------------------------------------

Here in the middle of the USA, there is one festival that presents traditional music. The University Of Chicago Folk Festival happens every February. It began in 1961 --- and it continues on...

Other than that one glorious example, I cannot think of another festival or coffeehouse or bar or house concert that is even 50% trad. There is no radio show in the Midwest that features traditional music either.

Granted, I have been out of the loop for over a decade, but no list of venues that I see, and I do see a few, would by any stretch be classified as an example of a traditional operation. I feel that's sad on several levels, but mainly, to me, it is disheartening to see so many being mis-educated. They know not what they do---and that is promulgated and perpetuated as gospel until everyone, thinking they are correct----nay, BELIEVING that they are correct--- everyone loses their houses, banks collapse, GM fails and we are caught in a chaotic downward dumbed-down spiral of depressed and ignorant people.

And it all could be avoided if we stay with the basics, perform with talent and use common sense. Indeed, you cannot sing taditional ballds and not continuously learn great lessons from history. And as we all know, history repeats...(It just costs twice as much, at least, every time around!)

Again, only by using and performing the traditional basics of the game, then, and only then, alas, will the Cubs ever win the World Series.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:18 PM

Some interesting thoughts expressed in this thread. I'll just add a few comments. I was dismayed at the attitude of "fuck 'em" and "he's an idiot" etc. directed at the folk club organizer. What is wrong with running a strictly traditional club? There are clubs/venues who book strictly singer/songwriters, strictly jazz, etc. There are also eclectic clubs/venues and that is fine too. If his club specializes in traditional English (or related) folk music and the members enjoy and support it, how does that make him an idiot? It would be entirely possible that he liked what he heard, but didn't feel that it fit well within the definition of what he and the other club members want to support. I run a traditional concert series (not a folk club). I want to maintain a venue that encourages and supports traditional performers, because I just don't think there are enough places around that do (I'm in the USA).   I've had very talented people ask for bookings, saying that, while they weren't really traditional, they could put together a set of traditional material. I don't book them. I usually refer them to another concert venue in the area that mostly books singer/songwriters. I give preference to performers who concentrate on the traditional.   That said, if somebody does a mostly traditional set but throws in a couple of original songs that are in the traditional style, that's fine with me. As for "messing" with traditional music - nothing wrong with that, but different people may or may not like your arrangements or changes.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:43 PM

Capt'n B may have the inside track on this-- as it seems odd that a booker would decline to book you because there were a couple of things things in your repertoire that he didn't like.

It is generally possible to leave that material that is not appropriate to a venue off the set list--We never, for instance, played "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" at a wedding, and, at least to my knowledge, were never barred from a wedding job because we could play it-

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:25 PM

PPS - The organiser actually said that he liked us, which is what seemed strange- a bit like a vegetarian following a policy of condemning the meat trade while admitting that he likes sausage rolls.

Of course, he's quite at liberty NOT to like us- we are well received wherever we go and we have a realistic idea of how good we are, but you can't expect to appeal to everyone. But the fact that he was complimentary was what made it seem a bit strange.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM

PS- If you think you know the club, fine, but I'm not saying where it is!

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:17 PM

Thanks for all your views.

I wasn't just enquiring from the point of view of looking for a gig- we get other offers elsewhere so I'm not bothered about one place that doesn't like us.

I just wondered what the attitude is towards "messing" with traditional music in this way- is it OK, is it OK if you state what you're doing and don't pass it off as the original thing, or is it completely beyond the pale.

Obviously different people have different views, and they're entitled to them. I'm not taking a stand here, just interested in opinions.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

Greg - Yes, good point - it's good there are a few places like that to balance the opposite, thanks.

Virginia - sorry, but it's Siul a ruin...

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Betsy
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:13 PM

There's a few megalomaniac Organisers out there - understand that - your "face" won't fit every situation. Move on and don't let this minor knock unduly affect you.

Subject: RE: How traditional should it be?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:05 PM

From Faye's original message, it seemed like her band could have tailored their act to the club's spec if they'd wanted to. Two or three out-of-line items shouldn't have meant they couldn't do a full-length act.

Did they think of offering?