Catters Scary Critical Claws...?

Subject: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

My boyfriend was recording me singing today, and I was listening back to it, to hear the the weaknesses (I always want to know where somethings gone wrong. Even if I bake a potato.), or hopefully for what could be improved, and worked on.

I could hear stuff i wasn't happy with. But I couldn't necessarily pin it down, or get to grips with what was wrong or how to remedy it.

I don't know if it would be plain stupid to offer up recordings on a:
"Amateur/Interested Singers, Seek Criticism" thread,
for the hopefully helpful *critical* opinions of experienced others.

This might sound all a bit indulgent on my part, but it's not.
I know my voice can sound 'nice'. But though I've had nice praise, I've come to realise that some (ie: much!) of the better praise I've had for it, very clearly isn't warranted. Friends can be too afraid to be truthfull and too keen to be kind.

And that's not what I'd want to get from here at all.

I wonder if it'd be worthwhile starting a thread for brave newbies like me, seeking helpful critical opinion from the community here?

I'll go for it, if any other peeps like me might be willing to give it a go too. And of course if the experienced peeps here, would be happy to offer their opinions?

Any thorticles..? :-/

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:44 PM

You need to trust implicitly the person making the comments/suggestions.

Not entirely recommended on Mudcat!!

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

Hmmm, sure, I get you.
But I do like to watch and listen and learn...
'Interesting' personalities included ;-)

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:55 PM

Quite a few members who are able to make home recordings and to post them publicly (especially in video form, on You Tube) routinely let us know when they've made something avasilable on the web.

No need to specifically ask for constructive criticism ~ it's implicit. People will respond with all kinds of comments, and it's up to you which to take seriously.

If you can go the YouTube route, viewiers are able to leave comments there on the YouTube page with your submission. This would potentially include a much wider assortment of folks than just the Mudcat community.

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Nick
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM

There's only one way to find out and that's to do it.

One of six things will happen

1 People will ignore it and you won't know whether it's good or bad apart from what you know already
2 People will comment truthfully and it will be positive for you
3 People will comment truthfully and it will be negative for you
4 People will comment and give you false hope
5 People will comment and dash your hopes
6 Other

As long as you are prepared for all these then what could go wrong?

I post things on Mudcat much like a lampost uses statisticians; for illumination rather than support.

My son posted a track on a forum recently and it has been met with NO response. It's not folk music, it's rocky metally stuff and it's excellent but not a soul has commented (Nuclear Fission - you may not like it but check out the solos at 3mins 30 and 4 mins 30 and I think most people would recognise a certain proficiency) - perhaps it's too good or too bad. My son and I KNOW it's ok so there is little danger :)

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:12 PM

Yep - go for youtube if you can, Rosie. If you like, and if you trust me, send a copy to me as an MP3 and I will give you an honest opinion. I am no music critic but I am honest if nothing else:-) PM me for my email addy if you want.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM

Rosie - try out YouTube. It's not perfect, by a long way, but comment (and even lack of comment) from perfect strangers can be interesting. You can always delete the weird or abusive comments, should you get any (which I doubt).

I once spent just a few minutes putting together what I still think is a very, very amateur video on playing simple blues licks in the key of A. I posted it on YouTube over a year ago and virtually forgot about it. In spite of my inceased proficiency in making music videos, that video still has had more hits (105,432 to date) than any other video I've posted there. I still think it's very average - but it did show me what some people on YouTube were looking out for, and that can be valuable. You can judge for yourself at: Blues Licks In A.

The fact that what I consider to be a very ordinary amateur video can get so much attention may not, of course, actually say very much for the critical faculty of YouTubers!

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM

funny 'cos I never thought of You-Tube, even tho I like to look at them.

My prob with average tubey thorticals is that they are not err highly 'informed' ones.

I'll do the tubey thing as you-all suggest. And indulge in a few photo-collages while I'm about it. Which should be nice for the amateur photo-lassy in me.

I'll definitely PM the nice people who've kindly suggested I PM them, and maybe I'll post onlist too - if I got the confidence to face the criticism.

Still, is there an online venue of sorts at the Mudcat for wannabees desiring decent feedback?

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Nick
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:59 PM

>>Still, is there an online venue of sorts at the Mudcat for wannabees desiring decent feedback?

No

I think there is a suggestion on the Mudcat Update from Max thread. Posting things TO Mudcat just costs in bandwidth so posting them on Myspace or YoutTube or Esnips or somehwere and linking to them is a kinder thing to the guy who pays the bills!

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

Okeydokey fair do. Tubey away it is then....
Cheers for replyin catpeeps, as ever.

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

I've found that when I want to work up a difficult song, I learn very quickly if I have a really good coach work with me one-on-one. We're working on "Gaudete" with our Gregorian chant choir (although it's not chant), and I'm the only bass. Our assistant director is a brilliant musician with an exacting ear, and I was amazed how quickly I learned my part when she worked with me on it, measure-by measure.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:24 PM

If one is unsure of one's voice and is seeking helpful criticism and suggestions, I'm not sure I would care to go as "public" as placing examples of it on YouTube or MySpace. For example, there is more than one folk singer (and this isn't limited to folk singers) who have gone public by putting out records before they are really ready, and later on, after their singing voices have become solid an reliable, the early (premature) record has come back to haunt them. A friend of mine refers to these as "blackmail records," and more than one well known singer as one or two of them floating around. YouTube and MySpace just make it that much easier to "go public" prematurely.

There are a few links on Mudcat that will take you to examples (shudder!).

Also, here on Mudcat, there are so many diverse views on what a good "folk voice" should sound like that it would be quite a chore to sift through and figure out whose comments are reliable and whose could lead you into vocal problems.

One source of criticism and suggestions that is usually pretty reliable is a church choir director. These folks have to have good musical backgrounds, and they're not as interested in finding operatic divas as they are in populating their choirs with good, reliable voices, and not wanting their choir members to turn blue and topple over from lack of breath control, or sing so far off pitch that they throw everyone else off.

So if you have such a person available to you, that would more than likely be a good place to start.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Ah! Joe beat me to it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:28 PM

Rosie, if you want to take the web posting route how about doing it with a personal blog rather than the very public sites such as YouTube? (not that you suggested YouTube in the first place).
I don't think that there's anything that can really compare with live one-on-one with a mentor whose opinion you respect though.

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Nick
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:44 AM

I use Esnips a lot to post things. You can then email or PM people and ask if they'd have a listen without making it public to the world. As I said before I'd happily listen and give you an opinion and I'm sure others would too.

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:40 AM

I hadn't heard of eSnips before - thanks for the heads-up, Nick. Just took their tour and it looks great. I support the suggestions above of MySpace, YouTube, and eSnips as showcase pages - you're bound to get as much critical feedback as you can handle! You'll probably make some new friends too.

Great idea about playing viol - go for it. It's an amazing instrument. (Where, approximately, are you based? Some areas are blessed with brilliant viol players.) Nice to see you at Mudcat, Rosie.

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

Thanks Nick, Esnips is a new one on me too.

Subject: RE: Catters Scary Critical Claws...?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 03:54 PM

It seems odd to me to put your trust in anybody whose ideas, tastes, definitions of folk music are a complete unknown to you.
The Critics Group worked on each others singing (among other things) for around ten years with considerable success.
The work was based on a more-or-less mutual agreement of what was meant by folk music, a knowledge of each others performances and a complete trust of their opinions and the motives for expressing them.
With the best will in the world this forum, or any of its type does not have any of these qualities.
Why go to strangers when I'm sure you can find friends to supply you with the assistance you require?
Jim Carroll