neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM

Personally, not yet.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

Al, to add to the impressive list posted by Folkiedave, what about the work being done in our neck of the woods by Village Ventures and similar organisations?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:26 AM

A few years back jack hudson and I were at The Pokeyhole watching Derek Brimstone do his support gig to Alan taylor.

As usual they asked del to finish off the evening despite being lower on the bill - cos the crowd there loved him.

I suddenly said to jack - you know mate - I really don't envy Derek his audience - finding something to do with folkmusic that ordinary folk relate to. jack couldn't see it cos folk clubs are all he's ever done.

But England has mislaid its folk sensibility. Do other types of gigs and you would see it. A true folk music has its place in the broad highway of the nation's psyche. Not in silly little interstices.

switch on the radio in spain - you hear something that is unmistakeably Spanish. I don't feel that way about English music.
And I don't think all that many English people do. that's all I'm saying.

By all means - keep the aspidestra and the white cockade flying, but the changes you have elected to embrace have rejected the broad mass of English people.

The thought of doing my little song in a one or two of the open mikes round here (like I say BNP territory) frightens me - the thought of walking cross the carpark afterwards. When was the last time your songs felt like they had anything that edgy to say.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Musket
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:43 AM

Very interesting discussions here.

Folk music, as played over the years in UK folk clubs has been a broad church to say the least. However, one common theme is that of songs, both traditional and contemporary bemoaning the situation you find yourself in.


The hardship of your occupation, the haves versus the have nots, the environment, lamenting change, political satire. You name it, it's somewhere in a folk song. Many songs are there to engender change. Woody Guthrie had a note to himself carved into the top of the belly of his guitar where he could read it whilst playing "This machine kills fascists." I travelled Ireland for many years and some of the songs I thought as a lad in the UK clubs were quite benign were rather powerful political tools really.

It isn't surprising that an aspect of UK folk music ie., heritage, is being hijacked by people who cannot get their message across by legitimate argument. I cannot remember complaining when Red Wedge tours to get rid of the tories were all the rage, and as an ex miner, I recall sharing a stage with Dennis Skinner and Tony Benn singing "Daddy what did you do in the strike" during the strike, and only a few weeks after McColl released the words. the cheers and ovation of 1,000+ that night made me realise what a powerful political tool folk music can be.

Their hijacking is wrong and revisionist but not altogether surprising.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:02 PM

Fascism in the UK is a shadow of what it was in the 1970s. The sky is not falling (well, not because of anything the BNP's doing, anyway).

The "Celtic" label has been very effective at creating a whites-only genre. There are less black faces on the covers of "Celtic" recordings than any other musical genre. Not just jazz and blues: there are far more non-white performers on the opera stage. I suspect that most of the people who describe what they're doing as "Celtic" *want* it that way.

The same goes for singer-songwriter music in the US. In the UK we have a few exceptions - Joan Armatrading, Tanita Tikaram, Sheila Chandra, and perhaps we can call Benjamin Zephaniah an honorary folkie - but not many. In the US, *everybody* doing music in the tradition Dylan started is white. Not a great start if you're claiming to be anti-racist.

Traditional folk is not so compromised, and some people are doing a damn good job of making it unacceptable to fascists. In the US, Bruce Molsky has been insistent that the African component in old-time music is absolutely central to its vitality and power. In the UK, much of the material people sing and play today has come through the Gypsies, in very recent times (i.e through people who would have been murdered if the Nazis had won). Traveller tradition-bearers are still enormously influential in Scotland, and in England we have Eliza Carthy stating her Gypsy heritage up-front. As somebody else said in this thread, racists can listen to music from the minorities they despise, but Molsky and Carthy's attitude goes deeper - saying that American and English tradtion is Black and Gypsy at its core, there is no ethnically pure part of it the racists can keep for themselves.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

Ian Mather:
"I recall sharing a stage with Dennis Skinner and Tony Benn singing "Daddy what did you do in the strike" during the strike, and only a few weeks after McColl released the words. the cheers and ovation of 1,000+ that night made me realise what a powerful political tool folk music can be."

Aye indeed, and I wonder are there questions begging pertaining to this, regards the matter of recent legislation raised in the "All Folk Singers are Terrorists" thread.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:48 PM

"I suspect that most of the people who describe what they're doing as "Celtic" *want* it that way."

I suspect that you don't know what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

"My father got to drop bombs on them"

Unfortunately, the allies often bombed working class and, specically, 'red' neigborhoods, hoping to incite revolt against the Nazi authorities. Didnt' quite work out.

Source:
Mike Davies, Dead Cities (New Press: 2003)

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: NormanD
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM

The Steadfast Trust got mentioned earlier in this thread. A small piece in a newspaper today suggests that they've been using the BNP's email list. But just reading their homepage tells you all you need to know about this 'charity':

"The Steadfast Trust is the first and only registered charity which undertakes work specifically for the ethnic English community. It exists to promote the education, legal rights, welfare, and overall interests of the community within England. Our work is driven by the belief that the English, and in particular the young, would gain greater self-respect and self-confidence if they had a better appreciation and understanding of their unique culture and heritage."

You can pick out a few key words here: 'ethnic English', 'unique culture', 'heritage', and draw your own conclusion.

The BNP, like most other fascist organisations, panders to the lowest levels of social prejudice, and is opportunist in its interventions. Anti-paedophile campaigns? Anti-Gypsy sites? They're usually there. I've also known them involved in anti-health care cuts campaigns. Sniffing around the folk music scene is probably an easy option for them, latching on to the arguments of "We English should be proud of our heritage, as are the Scots and Welsh and Irish".

As our economic crisis worsens, and the serious shit starts after the current sticking plasters fall off, there are going to be a lot more poorer, dispossessed, working-class people feeling angry and let down by the political system. The BNP will, no doubt, start becoming more radical in their slogans (attacking the uselessness and lack of difference of the big parties) and even more anti-immigrant (though having to compete with the present government).

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:54 PM

Sorry, that was Mike Davis.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:04 PM

Jack Campin

I suspect that most of the people who describe what they're doing as "Celtic" *want* it that way.

That's exactly the sort of attitude that I think we need to avoid; because the far right have latched on to Celtic music then fans of Celtic music get labelled as right wingers.

This only plays into the hands of the fascists.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:20 PM

I, for one, am totally sick and tired of all this neurotic clap-trap about Fascism and English folk music. If you don't like it,why don't you do those of us who LOVE English folk -music for what it is,rather than what you foolishly suppose it MIGHT be,a very big favour,and go and live in Cairo,or Beirut,or Bosnia,or Somalia or some other place,have a good moan at THEM,and leave the rest of us to enjoy our musical heritage in peace ?? (Please !!).

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

Bubblyrat - not quite sure what point you're trying to make - something along the lines of "leave the poor little folk-loving fascists alone"?

Apologies if I have misconstrued you, but that's how you come across.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:50 PM

neurotic clap-trap about Fascism and English folk music

Well y'know, Josef Bloggsschmidt down at the Berlin Volksklubb thought along those blinkered lines (whatever they actually ARE).

He thought (if you can apply such a word to the muddled processes meandering though his head) that those nice blokes in leather trousers and black shirts were helping to keep his "Kultur" alive by ridding the streets of all those alien Slavs, Jews, Gypsies and Gays who wanted to "pollute" it.

So those anti-fascists should sod off to . . . Jewland? Slavland? Gypsyland? The Pink Republic?

People live in the space they are in (and absorb, contribute to and participate in the cultures around them) because that is where they are for historical reasons, both political and economic.

There are those out there (Richard Bridge named somewhere BNP councillor and occasional performer David Hannam as one of the most high-profile) whose aim, in conjunction with ridding our erstwhile green and pleasant land of everyone (EVERYONE?) who cannot prove "English ancestry back to . . . well when? the Norman Conquest?)

Of course our cultural heritage is under threat from these twisted, white-supremacist bastards. And perhaps more so from those so complacent that they cannot manage to see it.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:28 PM

There's this terrible thing though isn't there - the popularisers are despised in the folkscene.

I think your man there must be living on a different planet from me. Or maybe just a different part of the forest. Alright, there are always people who are happy to grouse about anything, and some people who get obsessive about particular specialities, but by and large the folkscene is quite extraordinarily open in a way that other musical genres are not. (I think you'd have a hard job playing a concertina in a hip-hop setting...or in a chamber music consorte.)

One thing that sets folkmusic apart from the rest is that innovation tends to be about adding rather than replacing. The old stuff continues alongside the new stuff.
..............................

And to get back to the thread - it's hardly surprising that the far right should recognise that there's something useful and powerful in English folk music, because it's true.

And the very fact that this music tends to get put down by the music industry and the media actually makes it more attractive for these people - especially since they can tie it in with accusations that the reason for that is because of hostility to it because it is English.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: trevek
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

"The "Celtic" label has been very effective at creating a whites-only genre. There are less black faces on the covers of "Celtic" recordings than any other musical genre. Not just jazz and blues: there are far more non-white performers on the opera stage. I suspect that most of the people who describe what they're doing as "Celtic" *want* it that way."

Jack, I'm not sure that I agree with you. Jazz/Blues is a music based in Black culture, so of course there would be mor Black faces. Likewise, Classical and Opera are enjoyed by and taught to Black people th world over and so may be mor accessible from a cultural aspect. Are thre many Black Klezmer players? Many Black C/W players?

I don't think the term 'Celtic' creates a 'whites-only' genre. I think it is more a matter of cultural familiarity. Until recently there simply weren't huge numbers of Blacks in Ireland or even in Scotland (although Scotland has a large Indian/Asian community)so it is less likely to gain a huge following amongst them.

However, if you consider bands like Afro-Celt Sound System openly explore the links between different cultures and play with (non-white)musicians from different countries and cultures then I'd suggest the term "Celtic" is more a tag for a cultural starting point for making contact with others where you are not going to b accussed of appropriation of another culture. I don't think it is an exclusive genre, it is perhaps more that others have their own culturs to explore.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:56 PM

dunno trevek all those indian regiments played the bagpipes you know. And what of people like Gerry Lockran, who were Indian and Johnny Silvo who is black and one of the best English folk club pros ever......

surely no hard and fast rules...just cos you're West indian, theres no obligation to sing reggae and quite a lot of Irish people don't dance jigs.

I mean we do what we want to.... its called artistic freedom.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:35 PM

Its Oh So Easy for the mindless to be influenced by a little bit of clever rhetoric , but that is NO reason for the sensible majority to
leave ANYONE's tradition to the extremists . If you enjoy the music , sing it and play it , and To Hell with any one who wants to twist what you sing or play . An if you CAN write better Socialist Lyrics than Robb Johnson then write and sing them .
Its on a par with NOT flying the flag of St George , just becuase some idiot thinks it means something else .

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:44 PM

The worst thing in the world would be to abandon a music because it gets taken up by the nasties. The fact that the BNP may be sniffing around the music is all the more reason to play it, and play it better.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:17 AM

well maybe so.

But they never would have been sniffing round if ewan and pete seeger were still leading lights.

Those guys made it clear where the movement was politically. And to my mind that was no bad thing.

But where is the movement politically nowadays.

We've spent so long distancing ourselves (sneering at everything from Lonnie Donnegan,to the bay City Rollers, and Bros, and Roger Whittaker, and the Spinners and god knows who else) - no wonder the BNP thinks we regard ourselves as even more god's elect than they do. And they're applying for membership. We are renta-sneer!

the folk movement is full of snerchy sneerers. We have people who could sneer for europe at international level.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:36 AM

switch on the radio in spain - you hear something that is unmistakeably Spanish. I don't feel that way about English music.

Well Al I have spent a fair bit of time in Spain over the past ten years, and until recently I had a house there. When I switch the radio on in Spain all I can hear is ghastly Euro-pop.

Where were you listening?

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:11 AM

well I dunno it all sounded a bit Spanish to me. Even the ones they told me weren't Spanish.

I'm not sure that's a good thing, on calm recollection.

do you know - Rod Mayall - John's brother? Rod's a Chesterfield/Sheffield folkie nowadays, but at one point he had seven hit records in Spain.

I bumped into him one night doing an Irish theme pub in arse end of god knows where, somewhere in Derbyshire. Usual scene - no Irish people there. No one knew any of these songs they were all supposed to be joining in with.

I said Rod, why don't you jack this lot in, go back to Spain and do a gig performing your hits....?

he said, nah! they were all shite!

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:06 AM

well I dunno it all sounded a bit Spanish to me.

I find it's a characteristic of Spanish radio. :-)

Not come across Rod - but if he plays folk tell him to get in touch.

I do have a radio programme you know. No guarantees but it is local..........

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

By saying "we" that would imply you are including yourself in there, weelittledrummer. But I suspect you don't.

I don't recognise myself in there either, nor a lot of other people I know.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: GUEST,Trevek
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 01:03 PM

weelittledrummer,

Funnily enough, when I had my passing-out parade in the army we had a Gurkha pipe band!

I agree with what you say. It proves my point about it not being as exclusive as suggested.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Joe G
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:51 PM

Just a quick note to let those in the UK know that the moral maze at 8pm on radio 4 is discussing whether BNP members should be banned from certain occupations - will be interested to read anyone's reactions here - I have to be careful what I say as I work in a political environment myself so I will probably not be able to contribute much to the discussion but will be watching with interest.

A fascinating thread so far.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:01 PM

Just an opinion from across the pond:

I've been learning and singing songs since the early 1950s. When I first started, I knew very little about the songs, and although I had a general sense of whether a particular song came from England, Scotland, the Ozarks, or somewhere else, that made no difference to me. Did the song appeal to me? If so, I learned it and sang it. It wasn't until later that I began delving into the origins and backgrounds of the songs, and that became a fascinating study itself, giving me insight into the songs and improving my singing of them.

With hundreds of songs from all over the English-speaking world (and a few from the European continent) committed to memory, whether or not a song appeals to me—for whatever reason—is still my criterion for whether or not I want to learn it and sing it. National origin just doesn't figure into it.

And the same holds for most of the people I know. At a local song fest or concert, one might hear a local singer sing a song from the California gold rush, followed by an Irish drinking song, followed by a Southern Appalachian love song, followed by a sea chantey, followed by a Scottish border ballad. And that's not just me. That's Bob Nelson (Deckman), Miken, Stewart, and whole bunches of others.

Standard practice in my neck of the woods.

If anyone were to tell any of us that we shouldn't sing certain songs, or we should sing only songs from our own cultures, this person would be either laughed at or, if they got snarky about it, would be smote hip and thigh and tossed out a window.

Apparently in some of the British folk clubs (judging from what I have read on several threads here), some people try to set up rules for who is allowed to sing which kind of songs. I can see why this may have come about in the first place, and it quite probably did aid in getting people to dig for regional songs that might have lain fallow otherwise. Well, far be it from me to try to tell anyone, especially in another country, how they should go about it, however, it strikes me that hard-and-fast rules of this sort not only put a straitjacket the singers (not to mention the listeners), but it tends to play into the hands of more thin-lipped nationalists and monoculturists.

If an American such as myself gets up the nose of a humorless superpatriot by singing songs like "The Braes of Yarrow" or "The Water is Wide," well, I'm more that happy to do so!

Frustrate the nationalists! Sing songs from lots of different cultures.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:59 PM

I wonder if Don Firth followed Joe's advice above and listened to the nasty little white supremacist fascist ranting away on The Moral Maze. You think it's as simple as singing songs from different cultures and then they'll go away? Let me translate it into a US context. The KKK come along and start hijacking fine American tunes to promote their filthy, racist cause. You sing them Kum Ba Yah or We Shall Overcome or some such. They say "ok" and go off and be nicely multicultural. I don't think so.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

Is the wireless programme available on listen again or soemthing? I was watching Star Trek...

BTW, if the BNP want to join my club, I will reject them. They are not gentlemen.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:18 PM

I'm curious to know what the Morris side Ruth Archer mentioned did on discovering they had BNP activists as members.

If anybody wants a copy of that list, send me a PM with your email address. It's about 3 meg. PDF or HTML.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:35 PM

'By saying "we" that would imply you are including yourself in there, weelittledrummer. But I suspect you don't.'

oh yes I'm a recidivist sneerer. one of the snottiest sneerers who ever got snerchy about another performer. people who know me, say cut it out Al! You're getting snerchy again.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM

Ah no, WLD is a circular sneerer. He sneers at us sneering at him, sneering at us (etc)

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 04:56 PM

Jack, I had heard a rumour a while ago that the couple in question were BNP members - the list simply confirmed the rumour.

So the answer is that the side may well have been aware of their political affiliations for some time - and as far as I know, haven't done anything at all.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

The programme is at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fl5w5/Moral_Maze_26112008/
Most bizarre; a fascist going head to head with Melanie Philips. The adage about bald men fighting over a comb springs to mind.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

Fair point, Diane. Busy now. I will watch it when I get a few minutes later in the day.

My point is that I will not be intimidated in my musical tastes--or anything else--by someone else's political aberrations. And I don't see why anybody else should allow themselves to be either.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Joe G
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM

And that was their 'Legal Adviser' Diane!!!

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:23 AM

Scary anecdote, third-hand but I can probably check it: at a singing session in East Anglia, a bloke does a song and is told "you're a Traveller, aren't you, and that was a Traveller song? - this session is for real English songs".

Looks like some fascists have got one step ahead of me, with the comment I made about British folk music being permeated with Gypsy influences. They want to *do something about it*.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:46 AM

""Just a quick note to let those in the UK know that the moral maze at 8pm on radio 4 is discussing whether BNP members should be banned from certain occupations - will be interested to read anyone's reactions here - I have to be careful what I say as I work in a political environment myself so I will probably not be able to contribute much to the discussion but will be watching with interest.""

As soon as someone starts talking about banning people of one political persuasion or other, from anything, it starts alarm bells ringing for me.

I loathe the likes of Griffin and his slimy cohorts, but I can't support the idea that repressive measures are justified on that basis.

Once you start down that road in a "free" society, it becomes a little less free, and how far do you allow it to go, before you suddenly wake up to find that the last opposition to the ruling party has been vanished, and you are living in a dictatorship?

I don't have any answers as to what one can reasonably do, but I rather think that the answer is in a concerted effort to ignore, and exclude, in the hopes that without publicity they will wither and die.

Don T.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM

with respect Don, I think a rather more forceful stating of our position is needed.

if they get a foothold, they'll start chucking their weight about.

I didn't like it when people told me my cigarette smoke was unpleasant to them, but it spelt out the situation to me. Something similar is needed here.

As in the case of cigarette smoke - for the ultimate good of all.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 07:36 AM

Carefull ... t's all too easy to wander into paradox territory here. Consider the following imaginary conversation.

Mr Right-On: "I believe we should tolerate everything … except intolerance, of course."

Ms Sceptical:   "So, you are intolerant of intolerance? "

Mr Right-On: "Absolutely!"

Ms Sceptical: "Then does it not follow logically that you cannot tolerate yourself?"

"Mr Right-On: "Er ... next question please."

Rather than demanding that everyone we disagree with must be silenced, I suggest that we repeat the remark made by an 18th century French philosopher to a bitter enemy: "I detest what you say Sir, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."   (Though with the reservation that freedom of speech does not permit us to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre – unless there really is a fire.)

Wassail!

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: trevek
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM

I always found it puzzling how those who screamed about the right to freedom of speech were also the ones who were shouting for the BNP to be banned.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:21 AM

I think the difficulty for a liberal society, is where specific groups use and abuse social rights and freedoms, in order to *actively* undermine the rights and freedoms of others.

There's nothing wrong in a liberal society and it's laws, reserving the right to be intolerant of intolerance IMO. It's about the only pragmatic response available to such abuse of our rights and freedoms. But there's never going to be a fully satisfactory way to work out the conflict of interests, that doesn't involve either some degree of abuse or hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:41 AM

Trevek - its cos of the lineage of BNP.

nobody made us a present of freedom of speech - my Dad and a lot of other Dads had to get in tanks, aircraft and footslog all the way to germany and win freedom of speech - from those who would take it off us.

In the 1950's and 60's it was Colin Jordan and they still called themselves fascists.

In the 70's - it Martin Webster and the National Front.

No we've got this lot.

Always in the background are a scary looking heavy mob - God forbid that they ever get to be making the rules for us.

They've got to be resisted. Someone said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. This is the lot that we've got to watch and be vigilant about.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

"This is just the trouble with liberals - they don't want fascists organising, but they don't want fascists getting their heads kicked in either. There's no pleasing some people."

(Guest–Heart of this nation, above)

But the problem remains, Mr/Ms Guest –Heart of this nation: exactly who gets to decide who is a "Fascist", and who is a "Liberal"?

Are you telling us that everyone who disagrees with you deserves to have their head kicked in?   Are you also saying that you have the right to do the kicking, because you know who's who and we don't?

Wassail!

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 09:55 AM

"As soon as someone starts talking about banning people of one political persuasion or other, from anything, it starts alarm bells ringing for me."

Much as I detest what the BNP stand for, me too. The dilemma I have is: should members of avowedly racist organisations be allowed the freedom to police black people, teach black kids, look after elderly and infirm black people and so on? Can we trust them to do the job fairly, to the best of their ability and to give their black clients/pupils/patients etc the same quality of service and care they would give their white counterparts? This isn't a theoretical debating point but a real life dilemma that's being acted out around the country right now. Not sure what the answer is though. It may be about capability managing those in that position.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

to be honest, I don't really want my white child being taught by someone who belongs to a racist organisation, either.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

Nor me, Ruth, nor me.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:10 AM

Can we trust socialists to work in banks or manage factories, the religious to teach science, nihilists to practice medicine?

I don't know but you have to hope that if they enter these professions they will have some sort of personal integrity in dealing with individuals regardless of their political attitudes to groups. Their performance will be monitored and they can be removed from their jobs if necessary.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:12 AM

Nor do I want people like David Hannam who is high up in a racist organisation hijacking the genre to:

(a) raise BNP funds at his barbecues and
(b) sing lyrics which extol how nice the English countryside would be if only immigrants weren't blotting the landscape.

Subject: RE: neo-fascist-folk, please illuminate.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 10:41 AM

The problem, Manitas, is that a number of organisations have been investigated and found to be institutionally racist. This includes certain police forces and some areas of the the armed services. I believe that the rules against BNP membership for people in these jobs was introduced precisely because some proved that they were NOT capable of leaving their politics at home.