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Morris v Hakka?

George Papavgeris 22 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Nov 08 - 07:31 AM
Wyrd Sister 22 Nov 08 - 03:27 PM
VirginiaTam 22 Nov 08 - 03:41 PM
Little Robyn 22 Nov 08 - 03:50 PM
breezy 22 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM
Jack Campin 22 Nov 08 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Van 22 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM
Tangledwood 22 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM
Phil Edwards 22 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM
Sleepy Rosie 25 Nov 08 - 04:39 AM
Folkiedave 25 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM
Sugwash 25 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Nov 08 - 07:24 AM
Snuffy 25 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM
Paul Burke 25 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 25 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM
pavane 25 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM
Marje 25 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM
Sugwash 25 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,leeneia 25 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM
Ed Worrall 25 Nov 08 - 11:30 AM
GUEST 25 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM
Ref 25 Nov 08 - 06:48 PM
Santa 26 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM
mouldy 27 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM
pavane 27 Nov 08 - 06:37 AM
pavane 27 Nov 08 - 06:38 AM
Manitas_at_home 27 Nov 08 - 07:12 AM
Little Robyn 27 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,leeneia 27 Nov 08 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,buspassed 30 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM
Little Robyn 01 Dec 08 - 01:13 AM
trevek 01 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM
paula t 01 Dec 08 - 04:21 PM
trevek 02 Dec 08 - 03:16 AM
Manitas_at_home 02 Dec 08 - 05:40 AM
paula t 02 Dec 08 - 07:10 PM
Gurney 03 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM
GUEST,Seaking (at sea) 03 Dec 08 - 05:12 AM
Jack Campin 03 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM
Little Robyn 03 Dec 08 - 01:27 PM
paula t 03 Dec 08 - 07:50 PM
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Subject: Morris v Hakka?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:21 AM

What a brilliant idea! Morris with attitude


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:31 AM

Brilliant idea indeed, George. Trouble is our ever truthful and fun loving media would jut take the piss I suspect. I for one would love to see it and if I was involved in any morris teams, apart from Abram who only dance once a year, I would offer our services to the local rugby club at the drop of a hanky! (Hint, nuge, wink to any Morrismen out there:-) )

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 03:27 PM

Think the Wales team had the hakka beat this afternoon - they just stood, in a classic stage freeze, and refused to move off first. Took the All-Blacks until half-time to recover!


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 03:41 PM

Yeah I vaguely heard the report on Today BBC Radio 4 this morning. I was in a room away from the radio. Wondered what it was all about. Now I am even more confused.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 03:50 PM

The word is haka.
The idea came up about 10-15 years ago, I think as an advertisement in an English magazine.
The title was "All Blacks psyched out by English Haka".
The picture showed a morris side (6 dancers) in white, with hankies up in the air, left legs up and looking as if they're about to dash across to the other side. It might have been Saturday Night On from the way they're moving.
The words at the bottom say "Definitely a Dry Blackthorn Day."
I made an A3 photocopy and stuck it on card for display but its too big to scan.
Maybe someone can find the original.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: breezy
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

But

can the morris side play rugby ?.

anyway todays game was only a friendly boys

or

can, nay should, the England players learn to do a morris dance ?

At least the Greeks have Zorba's dance


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:05 PM

It's HAKA not hakka. Doubled consonants are impossible in Maori.

I have heard an explanation of the origin of the dance from somebody who ought to have known (a New Zealand anthropologist, I think). Seems that Maori warriors went into battle stark naked, and the dance was to give them all hard-ons at the thought of bashing their enemies' brains out. If anybody in the squad couldn't get it up they'd call the attack off.

The guys who want morris to be men-only haven't gone *nearly* far enough.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

Wyrd sister
Some years ago Scotland advanced towards the All Blacks and faced them arms folded across their chests for the duration of the haka and were criticised for unsportsmanlike behaviour. Fat lot of good it did them.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:39 PM

Dalek Morris might give the Kiwis something to think about.

Ka mate! Ka mate! Ka ora! Ka ora!
Exterminate! Exterminate!


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM

I think there's room for both. In fact, I've written a poem on the subject:

There is Morris AND there is Haka;
Lennon is fine BUT so is Macca.
There are croissants AND there is toast
And, when England is playing host,
It is the visiting tourist's wish
To have some chips BUT ALSO some fish.
(This poem may seem bland and trite,
But at least it rhymes and it also very nearly scans, although not quite.)


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:39 AM

I only read a while back that Morris with sticks, is a dance remnant of a lost traditional native martial art. So seems kinda pertinant to place it in this kinda context where the opposition utilise a their own traditional war dance. Only in Rugby though, dread to think how a football crowd would recieve these guys.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

The idea came up about 10-15 years ago, I think as an advertisement in an English magazine.

The advert was for Blackthorn Cider and the morris team was Winster Morris from Derbyshire.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Sugwash
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM

But are we not told that morris dancing is an ancient fertility dance whilst the Hakka is a war dance. I suppose we could hope that by encouraging the fertility of the All Blacks that they'd lay with the lasses around Twickers, Cardiff etc. and improve the rugby gene pool of these islands and then, 20 years or so down the line, we may be in a position to give them a decent game.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:24 AM

Famous All Blacks score-line

"Llanelli 9 - Seland Newydd 3"


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

I know, 'cos I was there.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

Perhaps Hakka is a hybrid of Haka and haiku, a more reflective sort of declaration of war.

   A fiddle tunes up-
hold my tankard while I dance
   the Princess Royal.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

I have a Children's Encyclopaedia from 1909 which says that morris dancing is the remnant of an ancient rite in which our primitive forbears drove themselves into a frenzy prior to performing human sacrifice. Which might be a load of rubbish, but the NZ team isn't to know..


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: pavane
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM

Morris dancers used to carry swords, not sticks, before it was banned.

And we (in Dubai-Sharjah Morris) danced at the Sharjah Rugby 7's back around 1980 (The Golden Khanjar competition).


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Marje
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

The morris stick dances (both Cotswold and Border) have got to be a ritualised form of combat. OK, so maybe the sticks have phallic overtones as well, but the same could be said of various weapons such as sticks, coshes, guns etc. I think a stick dance would be a very suitable riposte to a Haka.

But maybe incorporating human sacrifice would be taking it a bit far.

Marje


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Sugwash
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

I don't know what they'd do to the All Blacks, but by God they frighten me!


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

Tip: turn down the volume before going to the Morris dance. It's loud! However, I don't think that they will ever make a serious impression doing a haka in pink lame. (pretend there is a little mark over the e in 'lame.'

Curious, I went to YouTube to see the New Zealand athletes' Haka. Good acting.

Some years ago, a friend went to New Zealand, and we gave her some money to buy us some traditional New Zealand music. She came back with a tape, and the last number on the tape is the ritualized process of stirring up anger for battle. It is rather frightening to hear a leader deliberating manipulating a group of calm men until they are very angry.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Ed Worrall
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:30 AM

Not sure how much evidence (if any) there is about Morris being either a remnant of a fertility rite or simulated combat? However, my clogs couldn't cope with the mud if I tried to pyche out the Kiwis on the pitch!


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

"However, my clogs couldn't cope with the mud . . . "

Your clogs would become clogged?


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Ref
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:48 PM

I've had the pleasure of acquaintance with some fellows who have refereed All Blacks games. They all agree that the tension on the field during the Haka is palpable. As one of them said, "They really MEAN it!"


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Santa
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM

Cue for Larry's Cloggies, methinks. A double-leg Arkwright would sort them out.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: mouldy
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM

Or the Lancre Morris Mens' Stick and Bucket dance, as performed in Terry Pratchett's "Lords and Ladies"?....

'One, two, back...and KILL!'
(Always reminds me of Tidy's Cloggies!)

Andrea

PS - What about the old Lancs custom of Clog Fighting - that got banned because people were getting some serious damage...


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: pavane
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:37 AM

"Off With His Head" by Ngaio Marsh 1958

Synopsis from the web
On each Sword Wednesday, that nearest the winter solstice, the inhabitants of the two remote villages of High and Low Mardian gather for a dance. The climax of this is a sword dance in which the Five Sonse cut off the head of their father, the Fool in a sort of mime in which the blood is provided by a rabbit's head; the Fool then hides for a time, to reappear at the end, resurrected. The dancers this year - and, indeed, every recent year - are really a father and his five sons; and this year the father is really killed.

"...all in all, Off With His Head is one of Marsh's worst novels"


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: pavane
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:38 AM

And I think Ngaio is a Maori name...


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 07:12 AM

I remember an old copy of that with the Grenoside dancers on the cover.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

Yes, Ngaio Marsh was a kiwi and the ngaio is a native tree. But she spent much of her life in England.
The haka is a challenge rather than a dance, with suggestions of what they might do to them. I recommend Bashing the Bishop in reply - let the All Blacks be intimidated with castration threats!
P.S. I hate football!
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 04:59 PM

It might be a way of working up anger, it might be a way of scaring the enemy so that the fight never occurs and nobody has to die.

According to an anthropology course I took long ago, people tried to avoid actual battle in previous times, perhaps by scaring the enemy away with war cries, war paint and bagpipes or perhaps by having champions (think David and Goliath) fight on behalf of both sides.

Would that we could return to such eras!

I might even tolerate uillean pipes in such a noble cause.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM

Larry's Cloggies?

Bill Tidy's tha'knows! Double Flying Arkwright [legs akimbo- high hernia tariff]


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:13 AM

But anyway, it worked, didn't it?
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: trevek
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

Apparently the All-Blacks were offended by Wales 'not respecting the haka'. One of them said that the Welsh behaviour was 'like asking for a fight'.

Maybe I missed something, but what is a war-dance, then?


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: paula t
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 04:21 PM

I must admit I was disappointed by the England fans who sang "Sweet Chariot " all the way through the haka.I always enjoy the spectacle and feel an All Blacks game wouldn't be the same without it. Why is there this sudden hype about the way to respond to it? There's no need to respond. Many players on the opposing side find it quite inspiring too.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: trevek
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 03:16 AM

I think its to do with the importance the AB's put on it. Apparently as guests of another country, and at th national stadium they claim the right to do an intimidating war-dance before they play (after any other display by the opposition).

The hype isn't that sudden. It has been a debate for a few years, I believe.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:40 AM

Fair enough, but they shouldn't expect their opponents to be cowed or even impressed any more.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: paula t
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:10 PM

I wonder what would happen if the opposing team ran back into the changing rooms screaming? Sorry,but that ridiculous picture came into my head and I had to say it!


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM

Just for the record: The Samoan team also does a challenge, for exactly the same reasons.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: GUEST,Seaking (at sea)
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:12 AM

I was at Twickenham last Saturday and couldn't rid the image of the entire England team morris dancing to scare the All Blacks prior to kick-off, scary wouldn't come close to describing it!

Agree with comment above regarding singing of 'Swing low' during the Haka, I and others around me found it disrespectful, also spoiled it by drowning out the cries from the NZ players which is part of the ritual.   

Chris


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:35 AM

The haka used by the All Blacks is actually NOT a war dance in the original meaning of the genre. It's a poem by the resistance leader Te Rauparaha written when he was in hiding and looking forward to better times. It's quite a serious statement - comparable to "Jerusalem", say. It's been trivialized enough being used by a football team without being turned into a rhetorical football itself.


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:27 PM

There's everything you wanted to know about it and more on John Archer's site: NZ Folk

I wonder what would happen if the other teams were to treat it as a theatrical performance - big grins of enjoyment as the funny faces were pulled, then clap enthusiastically at the end????
On second thoughts, that might not be a good idea. The ghost of Te Rauparaha might appear.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Morris v Hakka?
From: paula t
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:50 PM

However people respond it sets the scene for a great occasion whenever the All Blacks play. I love it!


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