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Harder for the ladies to get gigs???

Banjiman 25 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM
Faye Roche 25 Nov 08 - 09:35 AM
greg stephens 25 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM
Marje 25 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM
Becks 25 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 25 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM
Marc Bernier 25 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM
Banjiman 25 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM
Melissa 25 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM
Becks 25 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 02:52 PM
Banjiman 25 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM
Dulci 25 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 04:31 PM
Phil Cooper 25 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM
Pistachio 25 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,The Goose 25 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 05:01 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM
Anne Lister 25 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM
nutty 25 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM
My guru always said 25 Nov 08 - 06:02 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM
Nick 25 Nov 08 - 07:32 PM
Nick 25 Nov 08 - 07:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Nov 08 - 08:21 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Nov 08 - 09:21 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Nov 08 - 09:26 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 08:47 AM
Banjiman 26 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM
muppitz 26 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 26 Nov 08 - 09:50 AM
The Sandman 26 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM
The Sandman 26 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM
greg stephens 26 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Nov 08 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Nicholas Waller 26 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Nicholas Waller 26 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM
Banjiman 26 Nov 08 - 12:31 PM
Dulci 26 Nov 08 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,TJ in San Diego 26 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM
BB 26 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM
Mrs Banjiman 26 Nov 08 - 03:14 PM
Banjiman 26 Nov 08 - 03:18 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 05:06 PM
Tim Leaning 26 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM
BB 26 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM
Banjiman 26 Nov 08 - 05:21 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM
Banjiman 26 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM
BusyBee Paul 26 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM
The Villan 26 Nov 08 - 06:14 PM
The Sandman 26 Nov 08 - 06:40 PM
Rockhen 26 Nov 08 - 07:54 PM
Genie 26 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM
Banjiman 27 Nov 08 - 04:06 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Nov 08 - 05:05 AM
greg stephens 27 Nov 08 - 05:14 AM
Mrs Scarecrow 27 Nov 08 - 05:33 AM
Anne Lister 27 Nov 08 - 11:56 AM
BB 27 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM
Banjiman 27 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM
Banjiman 27 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM
Tim Leaning 27 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM
Anne Lister 27 Nov 08 - 06:24 PM
meself 27 Nov 08 - 08:42 PM
Tim Leaning 28 Nov 08 - 12:15 AM
Anne Lister 28 Nov 08 - 02:42 AM
GUEST 28 Nov 08 - 11:39 AM
GUEST 28 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM
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Subject: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

I'm just in the process of finalising the line up and programme for The Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club 2009 Winter Warmer Weekend (Feb 20th-22nd) and noticed that I have overwhelmingly female acts lined up for the event. I was conciously organising a "Ladies Day" on the Saturday but have also now noticed that the blokes aren't at all well represented on the other days as well.

This led me to have a look at other UK folk club listings and I noticed a lot (a majority) of clubs seem to book a lot more male (some almost exclusively) than female acts...... I wondered why this is?

Are there more male acts out there?

Is this just a UK thing?

Do male acts work for less money?

Is there something more (maybe unconsciously) misogynistic going on?

.....or something else?

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Faye Roche
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:35 AM

Do fit guys get booked more often by female club and festival organisers?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

fRoots seem to feature a lot of pretty ladies on their front covers. That must get them bookings.But I would say Banjiman is right, if he is booking a lot of female acts he is probably the exception; the majority of working musicians are probably male. This seems to apply in most fields of music I would think.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Marje
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

I agree with Greg - I think there are probably fewer females aspiring to a solo career in folk music. The bloke-with-guitar or bloke-with-squeezebox performer is much more evident on the professional circuit, as well as in floor-spots etc, than the female soloist with or without instrument. Female singers who perform professionally tend to be part of a duo (the other half often being the bloke-with-guitar) or of a larger group which may well include men.

I'm not venturing an opinion as to why this is the case, I'm simply noting what I observe. This would go a long way to explaining why there are fewer female solos acts booked at clubs and festivals. Still, it's nice to see that Banjiman is doing his best to support the girls!

Marje


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Becks
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

Now I know why you asked how to spell 'misogynistic'.
That a very big word for a banjo player! Or is that Banjogynistic?

My comment is... if you are female you have to be or it certainly helps to be good looking to achieve anything where as men can be as they come. I know that isnt always the case and I am opening myself up for abuse. But I do think it makes a little bit of a difference in this shallow nation of mediaocracy.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM

I've had a few people tell me they ration the number of solo middle-aged men they book at their club or festival because there are so many of us. They'd much rather book a woman or both Toms (for the same fee, ideally :-) because then the event will stand out in the calendar. I've heard tell there are not enough female acts around (maybe I'd get more work if I dragged up? Now where did I put those limpets?)

Tom


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM

Becks, Are you saying there are more Pretty Female folksingers out there than "not so pretty ones"? Hmm, I'll probably get reprimanded for this, but I don't believe I had noticed that.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

Tom, if you promise to do a gig in drag, I'll book you again now for the earliest possible slot in the diary! Now that would get the punters in!

Becks, yes it is banjogynistic....and that sort of attitude will do you no good in the long run!

Seriously, I accept that there are probably less female acts out there (it would be interesting to ask why) but if you look at some club's listings you would think there weren't any....... any thoughts what is going on?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Melissa
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

I occasionally get a notion to jam with strangers and find that it's very hard for a solitary woman to get into the circles..it's not unusual for women to be involved in the circles (wives)

Of course, that's got nothing to do with gigs/clubs..just a gender difference thing I've noticed.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Becks
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

Sorry if I offended anyone, it was more in response to Greg's statement:
"fRoots seem to feature a lot of pretty ladies on their front covers. That must get them bookings."


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:52 PM

Flossie
Marie Little
Ruth Notman
Tina Taylor
Hissyfit
Edwina Hayes
Wild Wolds Women
Lucy & Rosie Coggle
Jane Kitchen
Aimee Robertson
Kate Abbott

Have all appeared at Faldingworth

Some that haven't, but go out solo are
Isla St Clair
Miranda Sykes
Kate Bramley

However there have been many excellent ladies who have appeared at Faldingworth and had a crutch to lean on by having a man generally playing an instrument as support, or maybe support vocals or even shared vocals.
Wendy Arrowsmith + Paul Arrowsmith
Gwenda & Terry Cater
Stitherum
Lucy Wright & Paul Young
No Fixed Abode
WinterWilson (dual female male duo)
Dave & Julie Evardson (dual female male duo)
Elizabeth Padgett & Martin Browne
Angela King & Dave Dickinson
Jane Kitchen & John Blanks

There are also excellent female singers who play in bands, who have been at Faldingworth.
Hannah James (Kerfuffle)
Rosie Short (Churchfitters)
Bethan Court (Harbour Lights)

On top of that, there are also some great females who are lynch pins for any band they play in.
Kate Rusby
Eliza Carthy
Norma Waterson
Rachel Unthank & The Winterset
plus plus

And above all, there are many fine female musicians
Iris Bishop
Mary Holland

I am bound to have forgot many, and if so apologies.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

Les, so why don't some clubs book many or in some cases any?

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

Paul
I guess it has a lot to do with how open minded you are to putting on a wide variety of people.

How did I forget Cara Dillon & Sam Lakeman, Kathyn Roberts & Seth Lakeman

Others that have appeared at Faldingworth (How could I forget these)
Mary Humphries & Anahata
Sarah Matthews & Doug Eunson
Anna & Daz Barker
Julie Ellison

Les


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM

Oh I forgot another at the club

Kate Witney


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Dulci
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM

In my experience as being a solo performer and now part of a duo finding gigs is difficult anyway. It seems to be a case of who you know and how hard you push. Although I agree there seems to be bias in mens favour .. mostly with guitars, beards and long songs. Sadly too many people judge and put your performance in a box.. your trad or contemporary or you should go to a session.. comments ???


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM

Oh bugger
I am going to get in trouble with the ladies

We have also had at Faldingworth or will be having

Blues Connection with the lovely Helen who has a great voice
Richard Langridge & Kathryn O'Connor
DaCapo with Helen/Rosie/Jackie
Jackie Tyson & Mike Wray
Nigel Creasey & Teri Clarke
A Trim Rig & A Doxy
Jiva
Paul Bellamy & Lynn Haynes
Fyrish


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:31 PM

and yet another

Karen & Colin Thompson.
Graham Moore & Gill Redmond


Why did you start this thread Paul, I can't stop thinking of all the lovely ladies who have graced Faldingworth GFB


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

I have a lot of woman performer friends, in the states. I have noticed that If they try as persistantly as some male performers pursuing gigs, they are looked on as pushy (or other less pleasant words) and are overlooked.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Pistachio
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

Good lists Les. Thanks for the mention (in no particular order)

I don't know if it's any harder for us to get gigs than blokes.
If someone likes us, asks us and we're able to travel on a particular date I'm sure we'd be delighted to escape 'im indoors to a location and appreciation of our efforts.
Hazel.x


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,The Goose
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM

We tried very hard to get women for our gigs, and only managed to get Jackie Oates in the Summer.

We tried for several when booking December to May, and noone could do the dates we had available.

We also find we have more men than women support artists, and that isn't for lack of trying.

We're not sexist honest!

www.thegooseisout.com


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:01 PM

No Problem Hazel :-)

Oh dear another one who I shouldn't have forgotten, but I did.

Abi Moore who will be support for Steve Tilston & Dave Bowie on December 20th 2008


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

Oh no another, who will be on May 16th 2009 at Faldingworth

That lovely voice of Judy Dinning who will be part of the band Realtime.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM

*subtle clearing of throat* I notice I seem to be below the visible horizon on this thread although I'm female and solo and a songwriter and was once half of a female duo.

Certainly at that point (in the eighties) we had the memorable line from a festival that we wouldn't be booked as "we've got girls on the bill already" despite the plethora of "boys" outnumbering the women by a considerable factor. We were also told at one club that we were the first female act they'd booked and if we hadn't been any good we would probably have been the last!

There are indeed fewer of us around on the folk circuit and it's a bit of a self-fulfilling wotsit because if we're not seen to be booked then others won't have the confidence to stand up and sing either. Role models and all that stuff.

Anne
ps give us a gig... you know you want to really ....!


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

aaaagh. Anne, sorry I mean't to mention you. So just to make up, here is Anne's website link

http://www.annelister.com/index.htm


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: nutty
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM

Janet Russell
Christine Kidd
Craig, Morgan Robson
Hilary Spencer
Bryony
Witches of Elswick
Ray Fisher
Sarah Grey
Lynne Heraud & Pat
Sylvia Needham
Flossie
Anna Shannon
June Tabor
Ellen Mitchell
Sandra Kerr
Nancy Kerr


to mention a few more. Perhaps the habit of having "Women's" concerts at festivals means that some women don't get the exposure they deserve.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: My guru always said
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:02 PM

It is good to see the amazing lists appearing here, and great that there are so many good female performers on the circuit!

There could be an element of female performers not wanting to appear pushy in requesting gigs. Also they might not feel as able to 'tour' the folk circuit and prefer to stay closer to home in their 'comfort zone'. My thoughts anyway....

As an unaccompanied female singer I feel that I couldn't 'carry' a full evening booking at the moment without the variety of an instrument or another voice, although I have sung the 'odd' evening at local clubs. Personally I'd prefer a half-evening or an extended spot, and that might make travelling any distance non-viable unless similar bookings were available in the same area. Still, a few years ago I wouldn't have felt capable of singing at festivals but I enjoy doing that now so there's hope yet *grin*


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

Aaaah

Moses and The Ref


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM

And, oh my god, will I be in trouble with Mary & Anahata for spelling Mary's surname wrong. So before I get the rollocking

Mary Humphreys and Anahata http://www.treewind.co.uk/mha/


I'll get me Wales :-)


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM

Dulci, WTF is wrong with long songs, or are you another "folksinger" who is actually opposed to folk music?

My late wife Jacqui Walker played (amateur - she was semipro with a number of bands) as a solo singer/guitarist for many years.

MGAS is well capable of an evening but too polite and self-effacing.

Marian Button is riveting - former NATS winner - book her now before it is too late (if you like folk music).

Who could ever forget the late Jo-Ann Kelly?

June Tabor is possibly the best solo singer on the circuit (very serious, but wholly amazing).

I think the point is this. There are actually fewer persons of gender as driven or driving as many men. Men are conditioned from babies to attempt, to strive, and if failing, not to cry but to fight again. That is at most part of the social conditioning of women. Therefore there are fewer women who will be prepared to "have a go", to submit to the process of potential rejection, and who wish to present themselves "as a star".

For this reason, of "have a go" participants there are fewer women (and those that there are are skewed to the placatory little girl presentation that so bedevils female folk stars at present) - so fewer are in the pool as semipros and potential pros.

And there is the purest sexism of it. If you were female and looked like the Phatt B'Stards or John Barden (sorry John) or El Greko (sorry George) would anyone put you on a stage?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM

Richard - you've done it again ... "Marian Button - former NATS winner - book her now before it is too late "

You made a comment like that on a previous thread, and I raised with you then the fact that it was not a very gentlemanly thing to be doing. Marian is very much with us, and is not likely to be shuffling off this mortal coil in the near future. It's not a very flattering thing to hear that you're so long in the tooth that you're not going to be around much longer ... I know she wasn't happy about it last time!! Oh, and incidentally, what on earth are you rabbiting on about "persons of gender" ... do you mean of the female gender ? And what is that guff you're spoutiing about male/female conditioning?? I was brought up to do things to the best my ability, and to strive to be the best I could, as were most of the women I studied with and worked with... and some of them were incredibly hard nuts, and incredibly successful tax inspectors ... not an area where weak wilting wallflowers survived.

As to the idea of "wishing to present themselves as a star" ... amongst the singers or indeed musicians that I know, the stardom factor doesn't present itself as a major factor. What does is a driving need to stand up, sing the songs or play the music that they love, and share their music with others ... not the same thing by any means .. although the aspect of ego is bound to come into it. Something I didn't actually acknowledge until a few years ago.

And as for your last sentence ... well I'm speechless!! I really hope that this doesn't portray your own personal opinions, as it looks as though you're suggesting that ladies of the less than beautiful persuasion shouldn't be booked purely on the grounds of their looks alone. Strikes me that I won't stand a chance!! I started performing in public late in life ... and was warned by a fellow singer about 6 years ago that neither of us stood a chance in competition with sweet young things with pretty faces and cute behinds, and sweet breathy voices - looks from your comments as though that may be the case.
    Perhaps I should delete this, but I'll let it go this time. Please remember to use a consistent name when you post. I'll assume this time that you left your name out by mistake.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Nick
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:32 PM

>>Tom Bliss - maybe I'd get more work if I dragged up?

Have you thought of shortening your name to 'Bliss'?

I reckon then you could be a female act, a band, or a solo male act

Or all three


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Nick
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:36 PM

Always admired Richard's honesty and how wimpish Guests are


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 08:21 PM

'And as for your last sentence ... well I'm speechless!! I really hope that this doesn't portray your own personal opinions, as it looks as though you're suggesting that ladies of the less than beautiful persuasion shouldn't be booked purely on the grounds of their looks alone. Strikes me that I won't stand a chance!! I started performing in public late in life ... and was warned by a fellow singer about 6 years ago that neither of us stood a chance in competition with sweet young things with pretty faces and cute behinds, and sweet breathy voices - looks from your comments as though that may be the case.'

This woman has a point.

Book someone ugly for your club!

It is high time that really repulsive people were given a fair crack of the whip. As you are all aware, there is an EEC 'complete dog' mountain of folksingers - male and female. There are generous subsidies available, along with aftercare programmes for audiences who are sensitive and of a nervous disposition, and paper bags to put over the heads of more extreme cases.

These are people who are all alone with not even a place in your wildest fantasies - not even at Christmas. My phone number is on the website.

big al


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:21 PM

Guest - you manage almost completely to reverse my own actual views.

As I said, Marian is fantastic, but all of us over a certain age have to (or should) recognise that our voices start to reduce in a certain something (if they ever had it, and hers certainly has that something). Compare the current singing of the also incomparable Martin Carthy with that of even 10 years ago. If you think I do her less than justice, name me anyone else who consistently tells people they should book her for clubs and festivals. I even gave Miskinman my own copy of "Buttonbox" and then bought another. Happy to have done so.

And no, I was not suggesting that singers should be booked on appearance - but it is a factor where woman singers are more prejudiced against than men.

And no, I don't like the babyvoices.



Hell, what should I expect? If you are a tax inspector I certainly hope you read more accurately when doing that job.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:26 PM

PS. We are all mortal, and as we get older, day by day, our expected lifespan reduces. Look at the comparatively youthful Mumblin Len - nearly a goner so recently. Look at Pete Hicks - (Slats) - 67 and still shaped like a racing snake when he died. None of us with bus passes are what we used to be. Face it.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 08:47 AM

Have you booked em all Paul :-)


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

We have booked and are booking a fair few of them...... don't think we can quite afford June Tabor ......yet!

For the Winter Warmer we have: Sara Grey (with Kieron Mearns), Sarah McQuaid, Zoox, Edwina Hayes, Tongue Tied, Barbara Helen, With One Stone & Rudeigin (50% female) (+ plus a few blokes!)

We've had: Marie Little, Mary Humphreys (OK & Anahata), Wendy Arrowsmith, Katherine Davidson (& Dan Walsh), Kim Guy, Anna Shannon, Bonnie At Morn, ....and lots more (including some of those booked again for the Winter Warmer).

Remember we are only 1 year old!

What about the clubs who aren't booking a fair proportion of ladies...


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: muppitz
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

We seem to have a similar problem at our club, since March 2007 we've had one solo female (Flossie), one female duo (Ember) and two bands containing women (Isambarde and Anthony John Clarke with friends), the rest have been all male acts.
We're having a girl's night next guest night which is a culmination of the ladies we have as our guest night support acts, a duo and three soloists, the amusing part is that one of the soloists is me!!
We had another duo come to our last singers night but we seem to be a club that is short on female performers, I'm not sure I can come to a reason for why!!

muppitz
x


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

One of my daughter's (rock) bands once played at an afternoon and evening event at a local rock venue in Nottingham where every band was female-fronted - a "Frock and Roll" event.

Alas the promoter blotted his copybook, no doubt over-concentrating on the "female fronted" bit by putting out flyers under the headline "Boobies".

It nearly became a matter for m'learned friends, since that was a trade libel...


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 09:50 AM

I've always thought that the folk scene shows a far greater involvement of women compared to many other genres (name ten famous female rock drummers, anyone?)

I imagine though there are a lot of reasons why there are fewer female performers, ranging from out-and-out sexism (such as the "we've got girls on the bill already" Anne mentioned above) to more subtle- but no less real- pressures (this makes for an enlightening read.)

For what it's worth, the most active female musicians I know personally are either quite young (with no family or serious work commitments), much older (children flown the nest, more leisure time), or have chosen between a music career or starting a family.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

thanks for telling me this,Iwill put off my sex change, then.
http:// www dickmiles.com


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

http://www.dickmiles.com


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM

The front-person of the Boat Band(for twenty years) has ben Kate Barfield. For a long period(when the band was doing most gigs) the two front people were Kate Barfield and Allison Parkes. The men in the band were humble accompanists only. As am I to this day.
So if any organisers reading this feel that your club/festival is having difficulty keeping up to its quota of female performers, perhaps you will give us some consideration?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 11:47 AM

I'd love to see some of the female performers we have had on in the mainstream limelight. The Saggy Bottom Girls would certainly give Atomic Kitten a run for their money - and prove that you don't need to be anorexic vacuous teenage song stranglers to have the 'X-factor':-)

Seriously though - I think there are more male performers 'doing the rounds'. Why I don't really know but perhaps it is because the ladies have more sense:-D

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

I do the website for The Topic in Bradford, the soi-disant longest-running weekly pub-based English-style folk club in the world (est. 1956, and this Xmas Day will be the first dark club night in 5 years) and there were quite a lot of women performing in 2008, more than usual (anyone wanting to analyse this can look back over all the gigs for all the years pretty much to 1970 on the site).

Not all of these were headliners. Some - Tuppenny Ceilidh Band, Pillowfish, Danyluk and Card - are male-female duos. Some acts - like YLEM, Celtish, Bandersnatch & Dark Horse - are bands with more males than females. But there were several solo women and also "duos" - such as those with Debra Cowan, Emily Smith and Kirsty McGee - where I think it fair to say the woman is the driving force and/or lead attraction.

Plus there were three all-woman acts - Ember is two, Bryony three and Soundsphere four women (and all were headlining).

Here's the whole list for 2008:

Dark Horse
David Moss and Masha Kaestner
Katriona & Jamie Roberts
Emily Smith with Jamie McClennan
Jackie Oates
Pillowfish
YLEM
Ceri Rhys Matthews and Christine Cooper
Debra Cowan and Pete Smith
Peter & Barbara Snape
Danyluk and Card
Chris and Siobhan Nelson
Fil Campbell
Ember
The Tuppenny Ceilidh Band
Pamela Ward and Paul Cherrington
Kate Bramley
Soundsphere
Ruth Notman
Paul Wrigley & Sue Burgess
Bandersnatch
Kirsty McGee and Mat Martin
Bryony
Celtish
Fiona Katie Roberts

My brother John booked the acts for 2008. Next year booking is being done by Rahel Guzelian, and so far she has booked:

Marie Little
FYRISH
Acoustica
Janet Russell
Landermason
Gina Le Faux
Flossie Malavialle
Wendy Arrowsmith


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM

Even more women on the scene.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM

I do the website for The Topic in Bradford, the soi-disant longest-running weekly pub-based

Actually, anyone checking the site will realise that at the moment The Topic is currently in the Bradford Irish Club and not a pub. But for most of its history it was in a pub... check out our history page for details...


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 12:31 PM

Interesting that the clubs with a good proportion of female acts are posting on here....what about those that don't? They are out there....I've checked. Anyone from any of these clubs brave enough to defend their position?

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Dulci
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 12:55 PM

overall I feel that in general women in some clubs are treated in much the same way as they are in society. I know others may shoot me down in flames.. it has been my experience that men seem to self promote and problem solve more regarding gigs. This site appears to reinforce this view. In medicine women have to be twice as good to obtain consultant status even in a female specialism as midwifery. Hence my belief that the same applies to solo women performers !!
Marge you make a valid point.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

Nothing is new under the sun, so they say. When I first began singing, in California in the 1950's, there were far fewer female than male performers in the coffee house and cafe scene. It may be that males have a greater need for recognition and applause, I can't say. I have known a number of very talented ladies who achieved some measure of success, but it seemed to be harder for them to get noticed. I remember a lot of crowds seemed made up of couples and single women, with fewer single men. Maybe male singers simply found a more ready audience. In the end, all you can do is level the playing field. Your audiences will tell you what they want.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: BB
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM

Of the ten full guest nights we put on this year, of the nineteen guest performers, six were women. Next year it works out to sixteen guest performers of whom eight are women. But we really don't look at it terms of gender, but in terms of quality and variety.

Certainly there are less solo female than male performers, so perhaps women do find it harder to tour alone. I certainly wouldn't want to do so. Of all our booked artists, only one woman is a soloist, and she's travelling with her partner.

So, in answer to the title of the thread, I don't think it's harder for women to get gigs, but there do seem to be less around that would suit our club for a full guest night - or that we can afford to pay (as in the Eliza Carthys of this world)!

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:14 PM

Barbara says "there do seem to be less around that would suit our club for a full guest night"

Given the extensive list of female performers that the likes of The Villain came up with, I'm interested to know what it is that the female performers seem to lack that makes them unsuitable for a full guest night?

I would echo several comments posted on this thread, e.g. Dulci says "it has been my experience that men seem to self promote and problem solve more regarding gigs". This would echo the widely held view that men typically apply for a job even if they can only fulfil 60% of the criteria, whereas women will be reluctant to apply until they can fulfil around 90%.

Therefore, if Capt Birdseye can do it, then so can I!
My Website!!!!!


So...come on girls...we are just as good as (and some considerably better!) than the male acts that dominate the folk club circuit. (I'll sit back now having lit the blue touch paper with that last comment!!! Tee hee!)


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 03:18 PM

.....obviously I'd just like to distance myself from the comments made by my wife!

She's such a stirrer!

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM

Sounds like you have been banjoed Paul LOL :-)


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM

Don't you mean "plucked"?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:06 PM

No LOL


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

If female performers do find it harder to get gigs
Its shame on us time.
But then maybe its just
Traditional.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: BB
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM

Wendy, I didn't say ALL female performers. If that was so, we wouldn't have booked as many as we have. I was referring to SOLO performers (the vast majority that Les came up with were parts of duos or bands), and that there aren't as many around that would suit our particular club as there happen to be males, although, I repeat, we don't really look at it in terms of gender - it's just the way things have gone so far, and it may be that we just haven't come across some of them, or that they haven't approached us. Could be all sorts of reasons, but please don't get on your high horse about it!

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:21 PM

Well said Barbara!

Like I said, she's such a stirrer......








Guess I'll be in spare room tonight!


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

You can always take your banjo in bed with you Paul :-)


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

I would imagine that it must be quite daunting for a female to go and perform on her own at a club that may be all men. Unless of course the female is pretty outward going.
The other problem is who puts a female up, if it is required. It needs to be either a safe house that the organiser trusts implicitally or B&B
I still think it is pretty difficult for a female to go anywhere on her own, without blokes thinking that she is fair game.
I don't think men on there own have the same problems.

Maybe I am wrong in what I think above, but I think its very important for club organisers to make sure that the female performer is as much as possible in a safe and freindly environment at all times.

OK now I suppose I will get flack from all the women who say they can look after them selves and don't need blokes being a gentleman.

Les gets his tin hat on and bullet proof vest and waits for the flack


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

Thanks Les.......

Barbara,

All joking aside, I think there is an important point here..... there are plenty of solo female acts around, what are they failing to do which means you don't end up booking them? Is it that they don't contact you (I guess this is the "driven" bit that Richard Bridge refers to) or is it a style thing (not trad enough/ too traddy etc)?

There does seem to be a bit of an issue here which is worth some exploration.

Thanks

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM

Les,

Do you reckon I can look after myself?!

Deirdre with ack-ack gun


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:14 PM

Deirdre
Whatever I say, I will be in trouble :-)

However in your case, you can more than look after yourself.

Les


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 06:40 PM

I agree you are much better musically than me,so is BB,
you are both much better looking and brainier,your punctuation is better,your spelling is better and so is your grammar.
I try not to apply for any jobs at all.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Rockhen
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:54 PM

Re Villan's comment "I would imagine that it must be quite daunting for a female to go and perform on her own at a club that may be all men." I find it daunting to even visit a club that may be all men, IF I don't know how safe it is re car parking etc. Maybe solo blokes feel the same, I am not sure, but I suspect it would be less of a consideration when deciding whether to go somewhere. Faldingworth Live is one club that I know for a fact makes you feel safe, and welcome, so credit to Villan and those others involved in running things there.
At the wide variety of music events that I attend, sometimes alone and sometimes with others, I find that there are generally far fewer women there, either playing, or listening. I have often been the only woman in the room. Come on ladies, redress the balance a little, get out there...I am sad to say that many of my female friends, who play music, do not seem to go out very often,to music, or other events, even those who have grown up families. Their partners, however, do. I am not criticising, just saying that is my personal observation of many of my friends!


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Genie
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM

One thing I've heard fairly often (over the past few decades), both from people who book music acts and just in casual conversation is that "people generally tend to prefer male voices to female voices (other things being equal)."   Perhaps that reflects a general preference for lower-pitched voices, perhaps men tend to have more powerful voices. DK. But I've heard that opinion expressed a number of times.

It's also been mentioned that live audiences and video audiences tend to accept male musicians as entertainers no matter what they look like but often expect the females to be younger, slimmer, and/or prettier.   

Even in the assisted living and retirement communities where I often do music, more male entertainers than females are hired, and activity directors are often quite up-front about saying "Our residents [who are about 80% female, on average] prefer male voices."

With senior populations, the preference for lower voices may partly be attributable to age-related hearing loss as well as to how hearing aids may distort sounds. It's probably also partly that when you have a lot of widows together an adult male presence is valued whether he can sing/play or not. *g*

But I wonder whether men or women are generally more inclined to be audiences for live music.   And is there any tendency for one sex or the other to prefer watching/listening to a performer of the opposite sex vs. one of their own?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 04:06 AM

Captain Birdseye said:

"I agree you are much better musically than me,so is BB,
you are both much better looking and brainier,your punctuation is better,your spelling is better and so is your grammar.
I try not to apply for any jobs at all. "

....and I've got no idea what he is on about! The only bit I would agree with is better looking! LOL.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:05 AM

In the harsh competitive world of selling fish fingers flashy folk personas counts for very little. You need a beard and a concertina.

I'm sure when it comes to a packet of twenty covered in golden breadcrumbs I'd go with the Captain every time.   

Kate Rusby is nothing in the world of codballs.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:14 AM

We do a totally acoustic gig in our local pub once a month, and encourage anybody to stand up and sing a song if they want. It's not at all a folky occasion(though we play traditional folk), it's just a sing song in the bar. But I would say(apropos of my comments earlier about the Boat Band having Kate Barfield up front)that it was noticable there were more women in the music part of the bar than men(though more men lurking rouind the corner listening). And, by a factor of three to one, more women actually got up and sang solo songs when we went round the room after half time.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 05:33 AM

I think pushiness is how gigs are got and most women (myself   included) dont like to seem pushy. I also think looks are an issue for women where they are not for men and age may well be as well.
As a female performer, both on my own and as part of a dua I am often conscious that there seem to be far fewer women around. I am also aware that there are a number of women out there sitting in audiences singing along with perfectly lovely voices,(I for one do particulary love to hear other women sing), but they hate the very idea of getting up in front of an audience to sing. I dont know why this is but it seems to be far more prevelant amongst women whereas men who quite frankly do not sing very well do not seem to let that stop them.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Anne Lister
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:56 AM

Speaking only for myself - I've never been intimidated by a sea of male faces, nor have I ever worried unduly about my personal safety on the folk circuit. I don't think I'm particularly naive or brave - I'm just happy that this is, after all, the 21st century and most of the cavemen have stopped going to folk clubs (if they ever went). However there is a question of willingness to travel away from home, and many more men take that as a matter of course for work than women (partly, at least, because of family factors). I admit I'm less happy to be away for a number of nights in a row now that I'm happily married and miss my husband when we're apart. That's without considering the cat, who pines.

I think the issue of pushiness is rather more important, and I know I have a lower "profile" than I might have because I'm useless at contacting organisers and asking for gigs. It doesn't take much of a slight hint of rejection and I stop. I'm not sure it's a straightforward male/female thing, because I know there are heaps of sensitive men out there (I'm married to one!) but I also know women are more readily labelled as pushy than men, possibly because it's such an unusual behaviour.

I don't think it's a question of attractiveness or age, any more than it is with male performers in this particular genre. It'd be different altogether if I was remotely contemplating the X Factor or something similar, or expecting a career in the wider pop world. Not many of us who have been working professionally over the years would count as cute (or hunky, for the men) and I do like to think (misguidedly, possibly) that people are attending folk clubs for the quality of the music rather than the eye candy.

As to the tone of the voice ...ah, it all comes down to taste, doesn't it? But on my mailing list of people who want to hear about what I'm up to, and on my list of "angels" for the new album I have pretty much equal numbers of men and women, so it can't be a simple divide there.

If anyone is interested in setting up an agency to "sell" women like me to the clubs please let me know!   I'm just thinking that at WOMEX, where I was recently, all the solo female acts I came across were being marketed by men, and all the solo male acts I came across were also being marketed by men.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: BB
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

Don't really know, Paul. To some extent, it might be about presentation, it might be about voice quality (we have one staunch member of the club who can't bear high women's voices - and Tom nor I are keen on them either), but it may be, as I've already said, that we just haven't come across many or that they haven't got in touch. It is not a deliberate policy in any way.

I agree that women touting for gigs can be perceived as somewhat pushy - and I don't subscribe to that view, in case anyone's about to jump on it - in the same way that women are perceived as 'arrogant', and men as 'assertive'. Infuriating, isn't it girls?

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

Barbara, strange thing taste isn't it?

I can't think of a man I would put into my top 10 singers...... this doesn't stop me booking them for other reasons though (great musicians, great songs, great "entertainers" etc, etc). I'm trying hard to resist the pushy ones though!!

Just wouldn't be any fun if we were all the same though.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM

Tabster says: "I'm useless at contacting organisers and asking for gigs. It doesn't take much of a slight hint of rejection and I stop. I'm not sure it's a straightforward male/female thing,"

It may not be a straight forward male/ female thing but as a club organiser it's overwhelmingly the men who you have to be really (completely and utterly) straight with if you don't want to book them just now.....and who sometimes don't seem to quite believe the club will survive without them! I've never had this attitude from a female act.

By the way, I'm in no way anti-men (I am one, obviously) or male acts. Just observing human behaviour.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

Re females being less pushy....
Ha!
They are just not so obvious and go about getting exactly their own way just as much as any man.
I wonder if any sociologists have comments on this and the difference between the classes in this respect.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Anne Lister
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 06:24 PM

Tim - and in terms of getting gigs this manifests as ....what, exactly? Not much good fluttering my lashes or turning on the tears in a phone conversation or email exchange! But what else were you thinking, in this precise context?

Anne


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: meself
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 08:42 PM

"Not much good fluttering my lashes or turning on the tears in a phone conversation or email exchange!"

Come on - we've all seen those cutesy, big-eyed, winking, smiley-faces ...!


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 12:15 AM

Anne...... I mean that females tend to have different ways of aproaching problems and if the playing field be a level one they are just as capable of getting whatever it is they have set as the target they wish to achieve.
Vive la difference(imagine a grave at this point)
Re gigs I dunno what the usual method is for either sex.
I would however be disgusted if the reason you may be rejected is because you are a woman.
When you mention being sensititve did you mean to the other persons reaction,or protective of your own feeling regarding rejection?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Anne Lister
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 02:42 AM

Sensitive both ways .. picking up on nuances, possibly (and quite possibly getting it wrong) and aware of my own feelings about rejection.

I don't know how often the rejection is based on gender or how often it might be a rejection of my music, although in my experience it's more likely to be because the person doing the rejecting is unfamiliar with my music (that probably sounds more conceited than I intended ...but it comes back to me not having done a good enough job at self-promotion).   What I do know is that club organisers and festival organisers generally feel they need to justify their rejections to performers and the reasons for these rejections are many and various. So I'm never totally convinced that it's a simple question of my being female (apart from the anecdote told above). But I have been told "our audiences don't listen to solo female singers" or words to that effect, which is a new one to me as (apart from some difficult adolescents) I have never had a problem engaging with an audience and getting them to listen.

So overall I don't know if it is really harder for women to get gigs but I do think it's probably harder for a solo woman to do a lot of work in the folk clubs because of many factors. Sexist reactions among the men is not top of my list of factors. Family commitments, reluctance to drive long distances on a regular basis and the very nature of having to keep the sales pitch going are probably far more significant issues.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:39 AM

There does seem to be a lot of being "nice" or very sickly networking involved in my very limited experience.
I understand re family and work commitments,and even if I reached a high enough standard to play for pay,I would find it difficult to find the time.
The lonely walk through the strange dark car park is crappy for me and I am 6 foot three and outhouseish,so I understand it must be a bit more daunting for a lone woman.
Have you considered getting someone a bit more pushy and thick skinned to be your agent for bookings?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM

Sorry I logged in but me cookie dotn like me just now ,hence the guest Anon above.
Tim Leaning


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