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Harder for the ladies to get gigs???

Nick 25 Nov 08 - 07:36 PM
Nick 25 Nov 08 - 07:32 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM
My guru always said 25 Nov 08 - 06:02 PM
nutty 25 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM
Anne Lister 25 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,The Goose 25 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM
Pistachio 25 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM
Phil Cooper 25 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 04:31 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM
Dulci 25 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM
Banjiman 25 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM
The Villan 25 Nov 08 - 02:52 PM
Becks 25 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM
Melissa 25 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM
Banjiman 25 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM
Marc Bernier 25 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 25 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM
Becks 25 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM
Marje 25 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM
greg stephens 25 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM
Faye Roche 25 Nov 08 - 09:35 AM
Banjiman 25 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Nick
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:36 PM

Always admired Richard's honesty and how wimpish Guests are


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Nick
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:32 PM

>>Tom Bliss - maybe I'd get more work if I dragged up?

Have you thought of shortening your name to 'Bliss'?

I reckon then you could be a female act, a band, or a solo male act

Or all three


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM

Richard - you've done it again ... "Marian Button - former NATS winner - book her now before it is too late "

You made a comment like that on a previous thread, and I raised with you then the fact that it was not a very gentlemanly thing to be doing. Marian is very much with us, and is not likely to be shuffling off this mortal coil in the near future. It's not a very flattering thing to hear that you're so long in the tooth that you're not going to be around much longer ... I know she wasn't happy about it last time!! Oh, and incidentally, what on earth are you rabbiting on about "persons of gender" ... do you mean of the female gender ? And what is that guff you're spoutiing about male/female conditioning?? I was brought up to do things to the best my ability, and to strive to be the best I could, as were most of the women I studied with and worked with... and some of them were incredibly hard nuts, and incredibly successful tax inspectors ... not an area where weak wilting wallflowers survived.

As to the idea of "wishing to present themselves as a star" ... amongst the singers or indeed musicians that I know, the stardom factor doesn't present itself as a major factor. What does is a driving need to stand up, sing the songs or play the music that they love, and share their music with others ... not the same thing by any means .. although the aspect of ego is bound to come into it. Something I didn't actually acknowledge until a few years ago.

And as for your last sentence ... well I'm speechless!! I really hope that this doesn't portray your own personal opinions, as it looks as though you're suggesting that ladies of the less than beautiful persuasion shouldn't be booked purely on the grounds of their looks alone. Strikes me that I won't stand a chance!! I started performing in public late in life ... and was warned by a fellow singer about 6 years ago that neither of us stood a chance in competition with sweet young things with pretty faces and cute behinds, and sweet breathy voices - looks from your comments as though that may be the case.
    Perhaps I should delete this, but I'll let it go this time. Please remember to use a consistent name when you post. I'll assume this time that you left your name out by mistake.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM

Dulci, WTF is wrong with long songs, or are you another "folksinger" who is actually opposed to folk music?

My late wife Jacqui Walker played (amateur - she was semipro with a number of bands) as a solo singer/guitarist for many years.

MGAS is well capable of an evening but too polite and self-effacing.

Marian Button is riveting - former NATS winner - book her now before it is too late (if you like folk music).

Who could ever forget the late Jo-Ann Kelly?

June Tabor is possibly the best solo singer on the circuit (very serious, but wholly amazing).

I think the point is this. There are actually fewer persons of gender as driven or driving as many men. Men are conditioned from babies to attempt, to strive, and if failing, not to cry but to fight again. That is at most part of the social conditioning of women. Therefore there are fewer women who will be prepared to "have a go", to submit to the process of potential rejection, and who wish to present themselves "as a star".

For this reason, of "have a go" participants there are fewer women (and those that there are are skewed to the placatory little girl presentation that so bedevils female folk stars at present) - so fewer are in the pool as semipros and potential pros.

And there is the purest sexism of it. If you were female and looked like the Phatt B'Stards or John Barden (sorry John) or El Greko (sorry George) would anyone put you on a stage?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM

And, oh my god, will I be in trouble with Mary & Anahata for spelling Mary's surname wrong. So before I get the rollocking

Mary Humphreys and Anahata http://www.treewind.co.uk/mha/


I'll get me Wales :-)


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

Aaaah

Moses and The Ref


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: My guru always said
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 06:02 PM

It is good to see the amazing lists appearing here, and great that there are so many good female performers on the circuit!

There could be an element of female performers not wanting to appear pushy in requesting gigs. Also they might not feel as able to 'tour' the folk circuit and prefer to stay closer to home in their 'comfort zone'. My thoughts anyway....

As an unaccompanied female singer I feel that I couldn't 'carry' a full evening booking at the moment without the variety of an instrument or another voice, although I have sung the 'odd' evening at local clubs. Personally I'd prefer a half-evening or an extended spot, and that might make travelling any distance non-viable unless similar bookings were available in the same area. Still, a few years ago I wouldn't have felt capable of singing at festivals but I enjoy doing that now so there's hope yet *grin*


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: nutty
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM

Janet Russell
Christine Kidd
Craig, Morgan Robson
Hilary Spencer
Bryony
Witches of Elswick
Ray Fisher
Sarah Grey
Lynne Heraud & Pat
Sylvia Needham
Flossie
Anna Shannon
June Tabor
Ellen Mitchell
Sandra Kerr
Nancy Kerr


to mention a few more. Perhaps the habit of having "Women's" concerts at festivals means that some women don't get the exposure they deserve.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

aaaagh. Anne, sorry I mean't to mention you. So just to make up, here is Anne's website link

http://www.annelister.com/index.htm


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM

*subtle clearing of throat* I notice I seem to be below the visible horizon on this thread although I'm female and solo and a songwriter and was once half of a female duo.

Certainly at that point (in the eighties) we had the memorable line from a festival that we wouldn't be booked as "we've got girls on the bill already" despite the plethora of "boys" outnumbering the women by a considerable factor. We were also told at one club that we were the first female act they'd booked and if we hadn't been any good we would probably have been the last!

There are indeed fewer of us around on the folk circuit and it's a bit of a self-fulfilling wotsit because if we're not seen to be booked then others won't have the confidence to stand up and sing either. Role models and all that stuff.

Anne
ps give us a gig... you know you want to really ....!


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

Oh no another, who will be on May 16th 2009 at Faldingworth

That lovely voice of Judy Dinning who will be part of the band Realtime.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:01 PM

No Problem Hazel :-)

Oh dear another one who I shouldn't have forgotten, but I did.

Abi Moore who will be support for Steve Tilston & Dave Bowie on December 20th 2008


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,The Goose
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM

We tried very hard to get women for our gigs, and only managed to get Jackie Oates in the Summer.

We tried for several when booking December to May, and noone could do the dates we had available.

We also find we have more men than women support artists, and that isn't for lack of trying.

We're not sexist honest!

www.thegooseisout.com


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Pistachio
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

Good lists Les. Thanks for the mention (in no particular order)

I don't know if it's any harder for us to get gigs than blokes.
If someone likes us, asks us and we're able to travel on a particular date I'm sure we'd be delighted to escape 'im indoors to a location and appreciation of our efforts.
Hazel.x


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

I have a lot of woman performer friends, in the states. I have noticed that If they try as persistantly as some male performers pursuing gigs, they are looked on as pushy (or other less pleasant words) and are overlooked.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:31 PM

and yet another

Karen & Colin Thompson.
Graham Moore & Gill Redmond


Why did you start this thread Paul, I can't stop thinking of all the lovely ladies who have graced Faldingworth GFB


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:06 PM

Oh bugger
I am going to get in trouble with the ladies

We have also had at Faldingworth or will be having

Blues Connection with the lovely Helen who has a great voice
Richard Langridge & Kathryn O'Connor
DaCapo with Helen/Rosie/Jackie
Jackie Tyson & Mike Wray
Nigel Creasey & Teri Clarke
A Trim Rig & A Doxy
Jiva
Paul Bellamy & Lynn Haynes
Fyrish


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Dulci
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM

In my experience as being a solo performer and now part of a duo finding gigs is difficult anyway. It seems to be a case of who you know and how hard you push. Although I agree there seems to be bias in mens favour .. mostly with guitars, beards and long songs. Sadly too many people judge and put your performance in a box.. your trad or contemporary or you should go to a session.. comments ???


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM

Oh I forgot another at the club

Kate Witney


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

Paul
I guess it has a lot to do with how open minded you are to putting on a wide variety of people.

How did I forget Cara Dillon & Sam Lakeman, Kathyn Roberts & Seth Lakeman

Others that have appeared at Faldingworth (How could I forget these)
Mary Humphries & Anahata
Sarah Matthews & Doug Eunson
Anna & Daz Barker
Julie Ellison

Les


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

Les, so why don't some clubs book many or in some cases any?

Paul


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: The Villan
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:52 PM

Flossie
Marie Little
Ruth Notman
Tina Taylor
Hissyfit
Edwina Hayes
Wild Wolds Women
Lucy & Rosie Coggle
Jane Kitchen
Aimee Robertson
Kate Abbott

Have all appeared at Faldingworth

Some that haven't, but go out solo are
Isla St Clair
Miranda Sykes
Kate Bramley

However there have been many excellent ladies who have appeared at Faldingworth and had a crutch to lean on by having a man generally playing an instrument as support, or maybe support vocals or even shared vocals.
Wendy Arrowsmith + Paul Arrowsmith
Gwenda & Terry Cater
Stitherum
Lucy Wright & Paul Young
No Fixed Abode
WinterWilson (dual female male duo)
Dave & Julie Evardson (dual female male duo)
Elizabeth Padgett & Martin Browne
Angela King & Dave Dickinson
Jane Kitchen & John Blanks

There are also excellent female singers who play in bands, who have been at Faldingworth.
Hannah James (Kerfuffle)
Rosie Short (Churchfitters)
Bethan Court (Harbour Lights)

On top of that, there are also some great females who are lynch pins for any band they play in.
Kate Rusby
Eliza Carthy
Norma Waterson
Rachel Unthank & The Winterset
plus plus

And above all, there are many fine female musicians
Iris Bishop
Mary Holland

I am bound to have forgot many, and if so apologies.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Becks
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

Sorry if I offended anyone, it was more in response to Greg's statement:
"fRoots seem to feature a lot of pretty ladies on their front covers. That must get them bookings."


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Melissa
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

I occasionally get a notion to jam with strangers and find that it's very hard for a solitary woman to get into the circles..it's not unusual for women to be involved in the circles (wives)

Of course, that's got nothing to do with gigs/clubs..just a gender difference thing I've noticed.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

Tom, if you promise to do a gig in drag, I'll book you again now for the earliest possible slot in the diary! Now that would get the punters in!

Becks, yes it is banjogynistic....and that sort of attitude will do you no good in the long run!

Seriously, I accept that there are probably less female acts out there (it would be interesting to ask why) but if you look at some club's listings you would think there weren't any....... any thoughts what is going on?


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM

Becks, Are you saying there are more Pretty Female folksingers out there than "not so pretty ones"? Hmm, I'll probably get reprimanded for this, but I don't believe I had noticed that.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:41 PM

I've had a few people tell me they ration the number of solo middle-aged men they book at their club or festival because there are so many of us. They'd much rather book a woman or both Toms (for the same fee, ideally :-) because then the event will stand out in the calendar. I've heard tell there are not enough female acts around (maybe I'd get more work if I dragged up? Now where did I put those limpets?)

Tom


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Becks
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

Now I know why you asked how to spell 'misogynistic'.
That a very big word for a banjo player! Or is that Banjogynistic?

My comment is... if you are female you have to be or it certainly helps to be good looking to achieve anything where as men can be as they come. I know that isnt always the case and I am opening myself up for abuse. But I do think it makes a little bit of a difference in this shallow nation of mediaocracy.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Marje
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

I agree with Greg - I think there are probably fewer females aspiring to a solo career in folk music. The bloke-with-guitar or bloke-with-squeezebox performer is much more evident on the professional circuit, as well as in floor-spots etc, than the female soloist with or without instrument. Female singers who perform professionally tend to be part of a duo (the other half often being the bloke-with-guitar) or of a larger group which may well include men.

I'm not venturing an opinion as to why this is the case, I'm simply noting what I observe. This would go a long way to explaining why there are fewer female solos acts booked at clubs and festivals. Still, it's nice to see that Banjiman is doing his best to support the girls!

Marje


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

fRoots seem to feature a lot of pretty ladies on their front covers. That must get them bookings.But I would say Banjiman is right, if he is booking a lot of female acts he is probably the exception; the majority of working musicians are probably male. This seems to apply in most fields of music I would think.


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Subject: RE: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Faye Roche
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:35 AM

Do fit guys get booked more often by female club and festival organisers?


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Subject: Harder for the ladies to get gigs???
From: Banjiman
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

I'm just in the process of finalising the line up and programme for The Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club 2009 Winter Warmer Weekend (Feb 20th-22nd) and noticed that I have overwhelmingly female acts lined up for the event. I was conciously organising a "Ladies Day" on the Saturday but have also now noticed that the blokes aren't at all well represented on the other days as well.

This led me to have a look at other UK folk club listings and I noticed a lot (a majority) of clubs seem to book a lot more male (some almost exclusively) than female acts...... I wondered why this is?

Are there more male acts out there?

Is this just a UK thing?

Do male acts work for less money?

Is there something more (maybe unconsciously) misogynistic going on?

.....or something else?

Paul


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