The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

Facebook trashed my list of 'send emails when things happen' option - they apparently lost everybody's - so they sent out emails...

Facebook lost my internal messages for a while - then they came back...

It seems they may have lost my login password now too ...

There are rumours that Facebook wants to start charging on a 'pay per use' basis. There even Facebook groups against this.


Why am I saying this here in this thread?


Why not?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 10:06 AM

Well it makes more sense than anything that WAV posts, so why not?
Obviously, you're having a bad "Face" day. Commiserations.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:55 PM

"WAV - please start writing poetry again. Please please please." (Stigweard)...alas, I retired from versification at the end of 2002, and began the process of self-publication, finding a way to sing some of the verses as "Chants from Walkabouts", then, just this year, working out/writing down the tunes, via mimicking my singing cum chanting on my beloved English flute...watch out for added intros next year!... ;-)>

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:30 PM

Ooh, the suspense is killing me! I just can't wait...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM

It's just like shooting fish in a barrel isn't it.
But he refuses to realise that he's been shot!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:16 PM

YOU are the fish Ralphie.

Ask yourself who this bothers. If it's you, and you keep doing the same unsuccessful things and whining about something you can't do anything about, if you try to indicate the pied piper is stupid because of all the rats following him around, who is the moron!?

Yeah, it bothers me too. I don't like to be reminded how willfully stupid some people can be... and then they try to blame someone else for their idiocy. 'But he MADE me do it!'

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:23 PM

Every time I open this thread, I am reminded of the kid in class while I was in high school. The bullies, and those so low in self esteem that they had to point out others faults to feel good about themselves, would have a field day picking on the poor kid. As I grew older, I realized that in a sad way, that kid was getting what he craved also. Attention. I see a lot of bullies in these WAV threads, a lot of folks making themselves feel better by attacking an easy subject, and one person who revels in it. It will all make a fascinating case study one day when the inevitable researcher decides to study the fascinating interplays on the Mudcat. But some of you won't be very happy with what they find.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

Mick,

You're a fool. You're not in anyway Irish btw.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:05 PM

Didn't Eddie Gregious write the Tiber Delta Blues?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

Didn't Eddie Gregious write the Tiber Delta Blues?

Yeah - known to aficionados as "The T.D. Blues". The Tiber Delta was, as you know, defined by the cities of Memphis, Athens and Cairo. You can read all about it in "De Bello Gallico" by the great Memphis bluesman Blind Rubber Sole.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:15 PM

Ah, you obviously know your history Mr Fly. I expect you're well aware that, being big admirers of bluesman Blind Rubber Sole, the Beatles dedicated an entire album to the great man. It's amazing how few younger people seem to know that - I don't know what they teach 'em in schools nowadays.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

Young people? Ignorance is bliss to them! One of the lesser known facts about Sole is that he was a keen bridge and whist player - used to use Braille cards (the Braille was on the front, of course, so other players couldn't read them) - hence the sobriquet "Rubber". His real name was Lemon, and he was actually born Lemon Sole. Historians tend to skate over this bit...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:49 PM

Huh. Tell that to the young people of today and they'd just look at you as if you were barmy. We're losing our culture y'know - I blame them Australians. We should never have invented world music.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 03:41 AM

No no, Smokey - I'm all for Good World Music. I love multifunctionalism - FROM NOW ON, of course.

But to return to the thread main topic - do you happen to know whether Eddie Gregious ever played a 12-string lyre? You know, like Leadbellious.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:32 AM

do you happen to know whether Eddie Gregious ever played a 12-string lyre?

Quite Interestingly, the Ancient Greeks had a lyre called a magadis which had doubled octave courses like a 12-string guitar and a consequence choral singing in octave harmonies was called magadising.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:44 AM

IB - good to see you with your Stephen Fry hat on!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:05 AM

"...never been, Ruth, but I've heard good things about the Sheffield carols."

I shouldn't bother, Wavey - you'd hate it. They sing in four-part harmony. And the singing has musical accompaniment, which plays more than top-line melody. And when people sing the carols in the pubs, it's definitely NOT in sweet, Sunday-best voices.

In other words, it's a living folk tradition which confounds all of your pronouncements on what English traditional music is and how it ought to be performed. And there's a wealth of historical evidence, including photographs and music manuscripts, to coinfirm that harmonies and accompaniment have always been integral to this tradition. As I know how this sort of thing upsets you, it's probably best if you stay at home.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:27 AM

Young people? Ignorance is bliss to them!

Surely you mean "they are ignorant of Bliss". In which context, I notice that his wife Gertrude died only a little over a week ago, aged 104.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:30 AM

"alas, I retired from versification at the end of 2002"

Well, for what it's worth I think you should start again, you must have the urge. I would try avoiding poems on one or two of the more contentious topics, but otherwise get writing. How can you just stop?

I don't publish my poetry because it's crap, and is a means to an end for myself only. I have put some of my music up in the internet, but that's for my friends only.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

"It's just like shooting fish in a barrel isn't it.
But he refuses to realise that he's been shot!!" (Ralphie)...I've noticed your inclination for cheap shots, Ralphie; but, in light of current affairs, at least, don't you think you should self-censor such words?

Ruth, re: Sheffield carols - elsewhere, I've attended the singing of carols (trad and known author/s) with the full score played on a piano and have liked it, thanks (singing around the piano is, in itself, a stong tradion of ours); but as for unaccompanied E. trads over the centuries, and the recordings of source singers such as Joseph Taylor, I refer you to the "Chords in Folk?" thread. Also, next year I hope to do much more recording - E. trads U/A, hymns with "organ", carols BOTH WAYS, and everything with English flute intos. (Rather than write more verse, i.e., Stigweard - I've said what I wanted to say and, whatever the quality, have looked at most major issues.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM

WF - do you happen to know whether Eddie Gregious ever played a 12-string lyre? You know, like Leadbellious.

I believe he did Will, but not like Leadbellious (not to be confused with Leadbillious or Leadbellows), who invariably played bottleneck. You mentioned Gregious' habit of playing with his teeth - you may be interested to know that he actually wrote "Bite my Lyre" on the twelve-string. Scholars tend to overlook his non-blues compositions, but in fact he wrote a right load of ballads.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 02:28 PM

hymns with "organ", carols BOTH WAYS

Does anyone mind if I smirk?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 02:50 PM

"Ruth, re: Sheffield carols - elsewhere, I've attended the singing of carols (trad and known author/s) with the full score played on a piano and have liked it, thanks (singing around the piano is, in itself, a stong tradion of ours); but as for unaccompanied E. trads over the centuries, and the recordings of source singers such as Joseph Taylor,"

Can you name one traditional singer apart from Joseph Taylor whom you've heard? He's the only one you ever mention, and I suspect the answer to my question is "no". Your response, once again, leaves you waving your ignorance like a flag. The point that's been made to you ad infinitum is that harmony singing and accompaniment have been part of the English tradition for centuries. The Sheffield Carols aren't just about singing round a piano - that is a relatively recent development. They were sung to accompaniment by string groups like The Big Set and the music was sung in four part harmony. There has always been interplay between sacred and secular music - it was the same musicians playing it, for heaven's sake, and the same people singing it. So why would they sing in harmony in church, but only sing top-line melody at home or in the pub?

You constantly refer to the individual singers collected at the turn of the 20th century - well, the photographs and manuscripts from Sheffield demonstrate that the community tradition there definitely included harmony singing and instrumental accompaniment playing different parts, not just top-line melody. Your assumption that there is only one English tradition, and that it is unaccompanied and does not incorporate harmony, is simply wrong. To suport your ideas, you refer to singers collected individually in their homes and music taken out of its natural context, when the living traditions of England stand as a testament to the fact that your absolutist theories are complete rubbish.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:01 PM

Just out of interest, WAV, how do you justify saying that society suffers when people lose their culture while also saying that some people (immigrants and Travellers) should lose their culture? Surely, as Eliza said, either society suffers when people lose their culture or it doesn't.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:40 PM

Pip, with all due respect, you're wasting your time - he knows perfectly well that his ideas can't stand up to logical arguments, so he ignores them. He knows full well when he's in a corner, and his only defence is to ignore. He knows he's wrong.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 12:42 PM

what happened to walkabout part 3?

Stu

---

It was deleted, and Mick and I don't know why. We've left it deleted, pending a decision from Max about what to do about all the harassment and nastiness that has gone on in these threads.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:03 PM

Pip (and Smokey): I just answered you on the "Eng. Nat. Mus. Inst?" thread - the one that Eliza has posted on. And, for the record, IE, the total "Weekly Walkabout..." type threads is a couple more than 3 - the original was a "Walkaboutsverse" thread. And Stu - I don't know: the only thing I complained about was an impostor of my nickname, but the Mods may have decided that thread was also unreasonable.

And Ruth – I have learnt and made some changes via some threads/discussions, e.g. (in capitals):

"There are, of course, many ways of accompanying a song but, if we are to accompany traditionally-unaccompanied English folk-songs, we should surely keep it light; I, e.g., usually sing E. trad's U/A but, occasionally, key just the top-line melody – with the understanding that English folk-music, for centuries, has entertained people, with telling and/or dancing, via, MOSTLY, the repetition of tunes…more-sophisticated polyphony and chords being found, rather, in church and court - eventually, i.e." (from here).

"Can you name one traditional singer apart from Joseph Taylor whom you've heard? He's the only one you ever mention, and I suspect the answer to my question is "no"." (Ruth)...NOT "no" - rather than type them all out, chapter and verse, again, I mentioned Joseph Taylor, e.g., and referred you to the "Chords in Folk?" Mudcat thread; but if anyone wishes...

GOOD E. TRAD. SINGERS (some of you may remember the same title from a rival forum, where I, and others, mentioned quite a few, Ruth):

(NOT Bill Oddie, in my opinion!)...Joseph Taylor, Sam Larner...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Surreysinger
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM

And ??? Who else???

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

indeed: who else?

"more-sophisticated polyphony and chords being found, rather, in church and court"

Evidence, please?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

...Shirley Collins...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

On another thread, which (mistakenly) doesn't have a BS: tag, I asked WAV:

You've said that immigrants to England should assimilate to English culture. You've also said that society suffers when people lose their culture. How do you resolve this contradiction?

He replied:

It's better, Pip, if the the land, the culture, and the law of the land are linked: one of the reasons why I think immigration/emigration should be greatly reduced/regulated via the UN, the world over, from now on; and why I think those who have should make an effort to assimilate.

The argument rests on an unsupported assertion, which (for what it's worth) I don't agree with. It also doesn't answer the question. (If you believe that it's better if etc, then you'll certainly believe that immigrants should assimilate - but they'll still be people, and so presumably society would still be better off if they maintained their culture.)

I guess that WAV doesn't actually believe that society suffers when people lose their culture: what he means is that English society suffers when English people stop practising English culture. As for anyone who's unfortunate enough to be living in the 'wrong' country, he believes that they should lose their culture - and that the law should encourage them to do so. In short, he's advocating legally-entrenched discrimination against immigrants and the children of immigrants.

Does anyone (other than WAV) still think these views aren't racist?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:35 PM

This Shirley Collins?

Shirley Collins - Banjo, Guitar, Arranger, Vocals
Nic Jones - Fiddle, Violin, Vocals
John Kirkpatrick - Accordion
Maddy Prior - Vocals, Harmony Vocals
Richard Thompson - Guitar (Acoustic), Guitar, Guitar (Electric), Slide Guitar, Guitar (12 String Acoustic)
Lol Coxhill - Saxophone, Sax (Alto)
Ashley Hutchings - Bass, Percussion, Bass (Electric)
Simon Nicol - Guitar (Acoustic), Guitar, Guitar (Electric), Vocals
Tim Renwick - Guitar (Acoustic), Guitar, Guitar (Electric), Guitar (12 String Acoustic)
Roy Wood - Vocals
Francis Baines - Guitar, Hurdygurdy
Dave Bland - Dulcimer, Concertina, Conductor, Dulcimer (Hammer)
Gregg Butler - Serp, Serpent
Alan Cave - Bassoon
Dolly Collins - Piano, Vocals
Trevor Crozier - Jew's-Harp
Barry Dransfield - Fiddle, Violin, Vocals
Tony Hall - Melodion, Melodeon
Alan Lumsden - Sac
Dave Mattacks - Drums, Stick
Steve Migden - Horn, French Horn
Colin Ross - Pipe, Northumbrian Smallpipes
Lal Waterson - Vocals
Mike Waterson - Vocals
Ian Whiteman - Piano
Royston Wood - Vocals
Roger Powell - Drums






Tracks :
Claudy Banks performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 4:37
The Little Gypsy Girl performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:15

Banks of the Bann performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 3:38
Murder of Maria Marten performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 7:27
Van Dieman's Land performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 4:59
Just as the Tide Was A'Flowing performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:12
The White Hare performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:43
Hal-An-Tow performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 2:53
Poor Murdered Woman performed by Collins / Albion Country Band - 4:17

Just some track info...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:47 PM

That Roy Wood?

(On reflection, probably not. I'll get my robes.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: s&r
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:55 PM

Just out of interest Shirley Collins received her MBE the same year that WAV started to take an interest in folk music...How about that!

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 08:11 PM

Pip (and Smokey): I just answered you on the "Eng. Nat. Mus. Inst?" thread - the one that Eliza has posted on.

Er.. no you didn't, WaV - you replied but you didn't answer. That's what you do when you can't answer isn't it? I left you some more questions to not answer though, just in case you feel like digging your hole a bit deeper.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:29 AM

I would have thought Shirley Collins's approach to traditional song to be about as un-WAV-like as we could wish; Stu points out the line-up of No Roses (Gregg Butler and Lol Coxhill? Actually it was Ron Baxter who pointed Gregg's involvement only the other night; needs must I give it a spin over elevenses) but any of her other albums tell a similar story of accompaniment on a near-orchestral scale, and even when the instrumentation is at its minimum (such as the delicious Snapshots) we find sister Dolly providing definitive & complex polyphonic accompaniment on her Flute Organ drawing on all eras & idioms of English Music and an understanding of traditional song that remains, in my opinion, unsurpassed.

You have actually heard Shirley Collins, haven't you, WAV? If not, there's any amount on YouTube. Here's Glenlogy to be going on with:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybew5DU5OIM

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:04 AM

Lord knows what David will make of "Folk Roots New Routes"! That Davy Graham - playing Indian ragas behind our own Shirley? Cor - not good for humanity...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:19 AM

I was actually asking about the source singers on whom you have based your assertions regarding the way English music has been played and sung for centuries. So far, we have Sam Larner and Joseph Taylor. I assume you are not including Shirley Collins as a source singer. Any others?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:57 AM

Sam Larner

Just watching the old Sam Larner & Harry Cox documentary the other week with Ross; I have it in my keeping on a VHS cassette with a rare pile of Peter Bellamy interview & performance footage. One of my favourite of the old East Anglian singers was Bob Roberts who accompanied himself on the melodeon, chords and all. There's an article about him Here and I remember seeing some concert footage of him (at Sidmouth?) on the BBC years ago - the sort of thing one hopes might turn up on YouTube one day...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:03 AM

It's no good telling WAV these things, his mind is already made up, don't confuse him with truths and facts. [ when I say ' made up ' I really mean CLOSED ]

He reminds me of Margaret Thatcher, if a million people said white and she said black, everyone else was wrong.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:24 PM

"Can you name one traditional singer apart from Joseph Taylor whom you've heard?" (Ruth 02.12.008)..."I was actually asking about the source singers on whom you have based your assertions regarding the way English music has been played and sung for centuries." (Ruth 04.12.2008)...may I simplify it for you then, Ruth, and say that most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard.

Subject: RE: The Weakly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard.

What a stupendous effort you've made WaV - it's a wonder your brain hasn't exploded with the pressure. No wonder you're so knowledgeable on the subject.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:23 PM

'most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard.' WAV; you were asked to NAME the source singers you have heard; names please!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

"most or, perhaps, all of what the BBC has broadcasted the last few years on source singers I've heard."

So, pretty much nothing at all. As mandotim says, I asked you for names. If this is the way music was played and sung for centuries on WHICH SPECIFIC source singers are you basing your evidence?

By the way, tyhe term should be "has broadcast", not "has broadcasted". Do keep up, old bean.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

Aw give him a break - it's hard graft, is switching a wireless on. Technical qualifications are required.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:24 PM

"By the way, tyhe term should be "has broadcast", not "has broadcasted". Do keep up, old bean."

By the way, the spelling should "the" not "tyhe". Do keep up, old know-all.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:36 PM

"By the way, tyhe term should be "has broadcast", not "has broadcasted". Do keep up, old bean."

By the way, the spelling should "the" not "tyhe". Do keep up, old know-all.

Presumably you mean to say "the spelling should be "the" not "tyhe." Perhaps we should all keep up... :-)

PS: One beneficial effect of all this is that I make damn sure I check my posts with the "Preview" box checked first!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:38 PM

(muffled titter)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:41 PM

Geez..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 02:42 PM

Bugger - that'll teach me to take on the Mudcat Mafia.