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Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster

Vic Smith 30 Nov 08 - 06:47 PM
Joe G 30 Nov 08 - 06:55 PM
Phil Edwards 30 Nov 08 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,Joe G 30 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM
Vic Smith 01 Dec 08 - 05:02 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 08 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,glueman 01 Dec 08 - 05:29 AM
Les in Chorlton 01 Dec 08 - 05:35 AM
greg stephens 01 Dec 08 - 06:14 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 08 - 07:36 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 07:46 AM
The Sandman 01 Dec 08 - 07:54 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 08 - 08:14 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 08 - 08:15 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 08 - 08:16 AM
Les in Chorlton 01 Dec 08 - 08:25 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM
The Borchester Echo 01 Dec 08 - 08:30 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 08:44 AM
Les in Chorlton 01 Dec 08 - 08:54 AM
The Borchester Echo 01 Dec 08 - 08:54 AM
The Borchester Echo 01 Dec 08 - 08:55 AM
Banjiman 01 Dec 08 - 08:59 AM
The Borchester Echo 01 Dec 08 - 09:12 AM
Vic Smith 01 Dec 08 - 09:57 AM
theleveller 01 Dec 08 - 10:29 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM
The Borchester Echo 01 Dec 08 - 11:38 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM
r.padgett 01 Dec 08 - 12:20 PM
Ruth Archer 01 Dec 08 - 12:32 PM
trevek 01 Dec 08 - 01:15 PM
The Vulgar Boatman 01 Dec 08 - 01:27 PM
greg stephens 01 Dec 08 - 01:42 PM
TheSnail 01 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM
Sleepy Rosie 01 Dec 08 - 02:50 PM
Tootler 01 Dec 08 - 05:35 PM
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Subject: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 06:47 PM

Really worrying stuff in today's Doncaster Free Press where an article has the headline

TOWN FOLK MUSICIAN RECORDS CD FOR BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY



It is vitally important that all folk music enthusiasts who would oppose the BNP to make their feelings known about this in the media nationally, but most particularly in the Doncaster area before an association is made in people's minds between folk song and racism.

Folk music in Germany has yet to fully recover from the damage that was done to it in the 1930s.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Joe G
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 06:55 PM

This is a very worrying development indeed. We have enough problems trying to promote folk music without it being hijacked in this way.

I am particularly worried as the festival I am helping to organise is in Queensbury which does have a BNP faction and I am worried some people may put 2 and 2 together and get 5. However this festival is nothing to do with the BNP as the guest list probably makes obvious!!!


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 07:00 PM

Today's Doncaster Free Press? The article is dated 23rd February 2006!

Incidentally, the "Dr Phil Edwards" quoted in the article - who is now the BNP's former press spokesman - is the pseudonym of a guy called Stuart Russell. I feel fairly strongly about this, as Phil Edwards is my name (and I have got a PhD, although I don't usually go by 'Dr'). I've complained about this several times to the Graun; the last couple of times they referred to him it was as "Phil Edwards aka Stuart Russell". Hopefully, now that he's fallen out with the BNP, he won't be getting so much rent-a-quote work.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM

Oh so it is!!

I suppose we are all getting jumpy?


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:02 AM

Pip Radish said:
Today's Doncaster Free Press? The article is dated 23rd February 2006!

Correct - sorry about that! I looked at the current date at the top of the web page rather than the published date.

Nevertheless, I am surprised that this did not draw a mighty reaction from the folk music community at the time - or did it and I missed it?


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:28 AM

What is totally insidious is that they are targeting children by leaving the CDs in locker room areas. Fortunately, it seems to have had little impact. My wife works in schools in the Wakefield and South Yorkshire areas and I'm sure no head teachers in schools she works in would allow this to happen. This is unmitigated fascism and needs to be stopped whenever it occurs. I doubt if many true folk lovers would go along with these tactics.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:29 AM

The whiter than white element have always attached themselves to folk music and folk clubs, mostly in a low key way, for as long as I can remember. While ever people persist in claiming a 'national identity' for a sound as a key element in folk music appreciation less savoury elments will find a voice.

There is no exclusive 'English' sound that hasn't taken on Welsh, Scots, Irish and continental flavours that stands up to scrutiny. Literature and film has abandoned national boundaries as a meaningful area of study for good reason, they don't tell you anything useful.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:35 AM

The BNP are truly evil that's for sure. But like most small parties they tend to be dominated by personalities who are more interested in power and position within that group. Hence the endless infighting and splits that are common to small parties of the right and sometimes the left.

The real enemy is the low level racism that is often common to almost all of us. If you doubt this go and read the Mail, Express and Sun.

Cheers

Les


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:14 AM

Those who have sought to broaden the definitions of folk to include their favourite singer-songwriters are now seeing the logical results of their attitudes. Any song-writers can call themselves "folk singers". In my book, neither fascist songwriters in Doncaster nor liberal songwriters in Hampstead are writing folksongs. But this is, of course, a very old argument!


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM

ANYONE can call themselves a folk singer, Greg.

ANYONE can call themselves a traditional singer too.

Don't start blaming the singer songwriters for this. Rather, look to a certain element within the English folk world who, for way too long, have kept themselves isolated and separate from the 'real' world, choosing to stay inside Merry Ol' England, where songs must still be sung in the 'right' accents, from the 'traditional' pool only.

Look to those who have done all in their power to keep those who they deem 'do not belong' from 'getting in under the radar' as Ian Anderson said, when talking about Seth and Show of Hands...

If you put imaginary 'radar' around *your* world, to keep those whom you consider *do not belong*, well, you are behaving in a very similar way to the very racists themselves.

When Steve Knightley can be called wrong, for 'singing in the wrong accent' (???)...then how would *they* judge someone with an Afro Caribbean accent singing the 'original' Country Life?

I mean, come on, let's get real here.

Bastards write songs. You can't stop that, but to decide that this is the fault of 'singer songwriters' en masse, or those who champion them, is ludicrous.

The English folk world should be filled with people of all colours, all religions, all accents, but it's not, is it. And part of the reason is that the 'English' do not even accept other 'English' inside this small, pedantic, narrow-minded world.

Sheesh!!

I even wrote about The Imagined Village on here a while back, and on the BBC as well, because they are the way forward in folk...but it was removed from both places.

Why? Because the small minded so and so's who dominate this musical genre, or who think they do, cared more about making a point to me, than letting words stand about The Imagined Village, where people could read about that band, watch their videos, see their Myspace page...and many people who may have read those posts may never have heard of The Imagined Village before.

But no, *their* way is the *only* way...

You cannot have a folk world which has an 'America, No Thanks' campagin running through it...without it attracting those with some very dodgy ideas..

So, if you want to 'blame' anyone for this, then damn well blame those who for so long have been wanting to 'keep the music' pure.

Bring in Paddyrasta! Bring in The Imagined Village! Re-form Edward II...bring in The Smirkins and the Afro-Celts, and stop keeping this music 'pure'......because that way lies hell....

There is nothing wrong with remembering, being proud of the songs, but they are NOT the be all and end all of the folk world, be it 'folk' or 'traditional'..





Some English New Traditional Music!

The Smirkins -
http://www.myspace.com/thesmirkins

The Imagined Village:
http://www.myspace.com/theimaginedvillage
http://www.myspace.com/theimaginedvillage


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:36 AM

"Re-form Edward II"

They have! Can't wait to see them.

Quite agree with what you're saying here, Lizzie. Contemporary folk song writers (which is, of course, what they are) are bringing an up-to-date perspective to the issues that have always been represented in folk music and also a modern interpretation to events that took place in the past. For example, of course, Reg Meuross's "...and Jeusu Wept", which is a song and an issue you have rightly championed.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

Sorry, the phone rang...and I posted the above before I was really ready to.

Here are the links:

The Smirkins

The Imagined Village

And bring on George Papavgeris too. Put ALL of these acts on our MAIN stages at Folk Festivals, stop putting them in small tents, or small rooms out on the edges of town. For goodness sake, let people KNOW, let people HEAR them, SEE them, and take them to their hearts. They are ALL talented musicians from the English Folk World.

Then bring in our amazing Singer Songwriters too, get them performing with our 'traditional' musicians, as Reg Meuross and Martin Carthy did this year at Sidmouth. They were brilliant together, and Reg is writing folk songs of the future...

Get over this prejudice of 'singer songwriters', get over this prejudice of 'the right accent'...

Just let the music evolve naturally, like the world population is doing right at this very moment.

The BNP won't ever stop it, they don't have a hope in hell.

But you have to ensure that 'your world' becomes OUR world, ONE world, because if you don't then you'll get these bastards pouring into 'your world'


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:46 AM

>>>>"Re-form Edward II"

They have! Can't wait to see them.<<<<

WHOOOPEEEEEEEEEE!!!

Thanks for letting me know, Leveller.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:54 AM

I remember a singer,who later went on to do gigs on the folk club circuit,who was a member of the national front,this was back in the 1970/1980s.
he was from the Medway towns area.
Its nothing new.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:14 AM

Here you go, Lizzie.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:15 AM

Ooops, blue clicky didn't work. Try this.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:16 AM

Nor did that! Sod it, just search on myspace.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:25 AM

I have often felt that a daily Mailish right wing lurks within the folk community and I have posted before that I feel song is left and dance is right, but only as a rough generalisation with much crossover.

I think their is a genuine problem of trying to work with traditional music from other ethnic experiences. This is not an argument against but a recognition that it is not easy to make it work. I love E2, Whapweasel, Imagined Village, Afro-Celts and Paddyrasta.

One issue about Singer-songwrites is that many cease to have any real connection with traditional songs and when they use the word folk for what they do it makes the word meaningless.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM

Here *you* go! :0)

Edward II

Thank you. x

Ooh, they have a new CD out soon 'Wicked Men'...

Now *that's* a cool title ;0)


And now, I'm 'dashing away with the smoothing iron' with some wicked men, which is, of course, the ONLY way to iron....

Mmmmmmmm   :0)

GREAT to hear them, now I have to go over to Myspace and get them on board..


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:30 AM

Sigh.

It's a matter of definition, nothing else.
A newly composed song is not a folk song. Yet. It might, eventually, become one if it is rooted in a tradition.
A "traditional" song is, per se, one without known author.
A "traditional" singer is an entity now very thin on the ground, only to be found as source singers or song carriers in this day and age really within the traveller or gypsy communities.
A "revival" singer is a singer of folk songs.

Any sort of song may be good or bad.
Quite simple, really.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:44 AM

Double sigh...

The first ever man/woman who made up a song, sang it, passed it on to his/her mates, was the first EVER singer songwriter!

Those songs, by the original singer songwriters are now being sung by traditionalists, who, for some extraordinary reason, refuse to understand this very simple fact.

There is no difference between listening to say, a song by Eddie Reid, called 'Woman', than listening to 'My love is like a red red rose' as sung by Eddie Reader. Both are beautiful words of love for someone special.

Love songs are love songs, it matters not when they were written, or who by, or if the author of those songs is even known. What matters is that someone was touched enough by love to sit down and write their words.

It makes no difference if you're Seth Lakeman singing about soldiers, lifeboatmen, or miners, or if you're Sam Larner singing about fishermen, or Reg Meuross singing his new traditional song about poachers.

With all due respect, people can stick their 'definitions' wherever they so choose.

Definitions belong with 'You weren't born here, centuries ago, so therefore, you're not a 'traditional' English person. You may get to be, when you and your 'sort' have lived here long enough, but *only* if we choose to include you within our definition.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:54 AM

Fair enough Lizzie:

With all due respect, people can stick their 'definitions' wherever they so choose.

Definitions are simply that.

For all sorts of reasons we have a collection of songs and tunes that have been passed to us.

Sorry I am loosing the will here

LES


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:54 AM


There is no difference between . . . a song by Eddie Reid, called 'Woman', than listening to 'My love is like a red red rose' . . .


What they have in common is that neither is traditional.
What the fuck is a "traditionalist"?
WTF is a "traditional English person"?


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:55 AM

My will is also lost.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:59 AM

...... abit of perspective please. I doubt the rise of the far right filth is the fault of either singer/ songwriters or those whose play/ sing traditional music.

What a silly argument, why the infighting when something so much more important is at stake?

Paul


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 09:12 AM

The argument arises from the wholly muddled utterance that:

ANYONE can call themselves a folk singer.
ANYONE can call themselves a traditional singer too


The issue is what to do to prevent the far right infiltrating and hijacking trad music for disgusting political purposes.

The is no perceivable connection, unless the originator of the former cares not a jot about achieving the latter.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 09:57 AM

Diane,
You should have left it at -

It's a matter of definition, nothing else.
A newly composed song is not a folk song. Yet. It might, eventually, become one if it is rooted in a tradition.
A "traditional" song is, per se, one without known author.
A "traditional" singer is an entity now very thin on the ground, only to be found as source singers or song carriers in this day and age really within the traveller or gypsy communities.
A "revival" singer is a singer of folk songs.

Any sort of song may be good or bad.
Quite simple, really.

That was fine. It really is as simple as you state there and unless one changes the meanings of words in the English language, it will always be as simple as that.
Don't get into an argument with her. You must know from experience that it is pointless. It also serves to divert attention away from the real evil that this thread warns about.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 10:29 AM

One of the great things about NOT living under a repressionist fascist regime as advocated by the BNP is that we can hold differing opinions and not worry about the Thought Police knocking on the door and taking us off to Room 101.

Let's unite to keep that!


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

"What they have in common is that neither is traditional."

Well, maybe not by your definition...

"What the fuck is a "traditionalist"?"



WTF is a "traditional English person"?"


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM

Oh bums...WHY does my computer keep doing that????

"What they have in common is that neither is traditional."

Well, maybe not by your definition...



"What the fuck is a "traditionalist"?"

It's one of those people who think that they and they alone know what tradition *should* be about, how songs *should* be sung, *who* should be allowed to sing them..etc..etc..etc..

"WTF is a "traditional English person"?"

One who is 'rooted in the 'tradition' of England, in the same way you choose to see these songs, I guess.

From Les:

"For all sorts of reasons we have a collection of songs and tunes that have been passed to us."

AND...for all sorts of reasons, we continue to have an ever growing collection of songs and tunes being passed on to us, this time by people that we know, and that is the only difference.

Without our singer songwriters, this world would be a very sad place, and you'd not have your 'traditional' songs in the first place, be they sung by gypsies or the girl next door.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 11:38 AM

THE definition of "traditional" is that there is no known author.
The two songs quoted are composed.

There is another racist pest on this forum who is incapable of ever answering a question directly put, but behaves like a multi-coloured (though not multicultural) talking bird. This is, possibly, a defining characteristic. I used to have this bother with Martin Webster, former NF supremo . . .


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM

"THE definition of "traditional" is that there is no known author.
The two songs quoted are composed."

Doh...really? :0)

Well, you keep to 'your' world, and I'll keep to mine then. The BNP won't like my world though, in fact..they've told me so when I've booted them off Albion Heart Myspace, many a time, with a sound "Take *that*, you bastards!"

My world isn't constricted, like yours is, nor is it excluding or narrow-minded. It's a mixture of everything, all colours, all music.


Absolute New English Musical HEAVEN!
YES!


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:20 PM

I have never heard of him!

Stop beating yourselves up and ignore him ~ totally

some thread drift here I feel
unlikely to do much in Donnie ~ I certainly hope

Ray


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:32 PM

Wise words from Vic, Diane. It's only the same old crap and there's no point arguing. Ignore, ignore, ignore.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: trevek
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:15 PM

Edward II's "Wicked men" is New?????? I've had that album for about 8-10 years (albeit on cassette).


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:27 PM

Please, if we are going to hurl our dummies across the playpen, can we get our definitions right? Tradition(al) has to do with the handing on of cultural information; songs with no known author are anonymous. There, that didn't hurt a bit, did it?


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:42 PM

While the dangers of fascism can not be ignored, aren't we in danger of over-inflating the significance of a few BNP typers taking an interest in folk music? I have always felt (without getting too religious about it) that listening to, and paricipating in the making of folk music is quite a redeeming thing. Might it not actually be quite a good thing if a few right wingers learn Pleasnat and Delightful and discover the pleasure of harmony singing. And if folk clubs were a bit more multi-cultural(I wish), maybe people might get turned on to music that is a bit unfamiliar to them; and possibly even to the singers thereof?
That bloke on the Royle Family is a good example of a folkie who got redeemed.Things can change.
I doubt if singing folk songs is going to improve a died in the wool hardcore Nazi, but I doubt if it would do one much harm, either.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

greg stephens

While the dangers of fascism can not be ignored, aren't we in danger of over-inflating the significance of a few BNP typers taking an interest in folk music?

Well, at the moment, they seem to be more interested in the definition of traditional.

The danger I am more concerned about is the risk of traditional music getting a public image of nationalism and jingoism of racism. For instance this in The Observer a year ago http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/dec/09/foodanddrink.restaurants

I doubt if folk songs are going to drive the BNP from the land but lets at least do our best to keep them out of the folk scene.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM

Yes, Captain, there was such a person, and I know exactly who you mean, and where he sometimes drinks.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:50 PM

I suspect the adoption of folk music by the BNP, has very little if indeed anything at all to do with the genuine art/craft itself, and everything to do with the fascist idealogy that it can be utilised as a propaganda tool in order to promote.
That's cynical abuse, not enjoyment. It's a sham.
And no offence, but a bloke off of a telly programme, is just a bloke off a telly programme.
I nearly pee'd myself reading one of the comments on that BNP site: some young guy saying he was gonna get rid of all his hip-hop/rap/drum & bass, and listen only to English folk music from now on! Praise the Lord!
He'd been musically converted and saved from popular black music, by a fascist organisations promotion of traditional English folk music...
I find something rather pathetic, sinister and tragic in that.


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Subject: RE: Fascists & Folk Song in Doncaster
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:35 PM

I nearly pee'd myself reading one of the comments on that BNP site: some young guy saying he was gonna get rid of all his hip-hop/rap/drum & bass, and listen only to English folk music from now on! Praise the Lord!

Sounds a bit like one originator of excessively long threads on Mudcat - who shall, of course, remain nameless!


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