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Global warming, ozone, etc...
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Subject: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 18 Jun 99 - 05:20 PM BSeed, I started this thread, so we don't mess with the Quinns lighthouse thing. So lets take it here, ok? The thing I was trying to get accross is the beekers that we had on board the ship, had their minds made up, before checking with the facts. (Making the data fit the theroy is not science as I know it...) What they were trying to prove is that one cause made the effect. Any other reasons were ignored. This isn't science, this is grant grabbing. These guys didn't want to hear about solar activity, or even natural climatic changes. No everything had to be caused by some American that wanted a cold beer, or drive to a movie house. The assumtion that if I can force something to happen in a lab, that is the ONLY way the effect will occure. In the ozone thing, they wouldn't even talk about where the ozone came from. (UV light on upper atm. causes O2 to break down.) This what I mean about cherry picking data. If you pick your data carefully enough you can come to real silly assumtions. Here is another example of cheery picked data. Spotted owls only live in a climax forest. Why? That's the only place they looked. The assumtion is that the owl can only live in the quiet peacefull forest. Full of all sorts of nice trees. OK, the owl likes that. However in Sornora (I think that's the town's name) there is an abonded K mart sign that they can't take down, why? It has a Sptted owls nest. (parking lot is peacefull?) There are at least four nests in the Woodland Park Zoo, in DOWNTOWN Seattle. The K mart sign and the zoo locations were ignored, because it didn't fit into the theory. Is this real science? I don't think so. Am I for real science? Should these things be studied? You bet! However I'm sick and tired of folks blowing smoke up my kilt, because they are low on grant money. (Ever been around beekers when the subject of grants come up? It's like being in a room full of 9 year olds.) Anyway, I get my opinions not from Rush, but from dealing with the princable people involved. I worked on mass spectrum analizers for about 10 years as a field service engineer. I cleaned the machine that did the Love Cannel. I had to work with some of these jokers on a day to day basis. This was way back when Rush was just another top 40 DJ, a wanna be. Ok, well nuf of that. -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: The Shambles Date: 18 Jun 99 - 05:28 PM Is it not the case that the Spotted Owl is seen to be an easily understood symbol, when in fact it is the whole climax forest and all the less attractive creatures it contains that is need of real protection? |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 18 Jun 99 - 05:37 PM Fine, if the idea is to save the forest, then say so. To lie to the public, because the facts wern't checked, makes me wonder about all the other "facts'. Remember what they were saying in the contra hearings, follow the money. Loggins is about shut down in the USA, so where is our lumber comming from? Who gains? Think about it a minuite or two....Scary isn't it? Big companies have started wars so they could sell their goods, (Krupp) or newspapers. Why not start something about owls or ozone? The question is, where is the money for the grants comming from, and who gains? I thought we learned this with Nixon...guess not. eh? -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 18 Jun 99 - 07:52 PM Fadac, my feeling about what you had said last night was that you were using this one technician as a straw man, representing all of that part of the scientific community concerned with the ozone layer: he couldn't answer your criticisms, so science had no answer. I find it difficult to believe that all the scientific brainpower involved here has ignored all inconvenient data, for the protection of their grant money (this particular linking of a human product with a potential environmental disaster was quite costly, I believe, for many potential grantmakers--wouldn't they have been giving grants to scientists willing to select evidence to prove fluoro-chloro-carbons benign?) --seed |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Margo Date: 18 Jun 99 - 08:56 PM I know what you're talking about, FADAC. I remember something about a study being done to determine the reasons for frogs in a certain area being deformed. The suspect was acid rain. The government funded the study. The outcome of the study was that acid rain had nothing to do with it. BUT the government ignored the study, still using the acid rain thing to promote environmental policies. Hmm........who benefits? Margarita |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: bob schwarer Date: 18 Jun 99 - 09:20 PM How about snail darters. They shut down dam building on a Tenn. river because it was the "only place" snail darters lived. When people really started looking around, they found they were up to their asses in snail darters. Bob S. |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 18 Jun 99 - 09:30 PM "LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! In this cage is the male alligator, our very most important animal. The male alligator? That's right, the male alligator. You see, each spring the female alligator swims upstream to a spot where she lays 100 eggs. Following her upstream is the male alligator, who eats ninety-nine of the eggs--so you see, if it weren't for the male alligator, our very most important animal, we'd be up to our asses in alligators. (one of the verses of "The Wild West Show," a song I learned from a young woman working at Timberline Lodge on Mt. Hood, Oregon). Which is quite a bit worse than being up to our asses in snail darters. --seed And Margarita, what did they determine was the cause of the mutant frogs, a decline in their family values? --seed |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: SeanM Date: 18 Jun 99 - 10:53 PM Actually, the mutant frog thing was a parasite, if I remember correctly. Personally, in these matters, I'd rather we erred on the side of caution. The unfortunate truth is that regardless of what 'side' of an issue you are on, some unscrupulous 'scientist' will be able to find the results that you are looking for... if you fund them. Remember the Phillip Morris studies that claimed nicotine wasn't addictive? Turns out a very small percentage of people are immune to nicotine addiction. Sample only out of that group, and *poof*! You just proved nicotine doesn't hook people! It does work both ways though. Best thing to do is to do the legwork yourself. Chances are that if you really look, you can find enough unbiased research to draw a REAL opinion from. M |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Einnor Date: 19 Jun 99 - 01:22 AM Can't keep shut up forever. I was a faller in coastal B.C. Can. for a long time. The clear cuts would make you sick only after you were able to breath once you got your breath back.70 miles of moonscape with mud slides fromm top to the bottom of moutains. All for that quick buck. Now with wide spread helicoptor logging the hard to get refuges aren't hard to get to now .Does anybody know what effect all that fuel pouring out the back end of that jet engine is doing to the environment or does the fact that the replacement forest that is replanted is only one age mean anything. |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Penny S. Date: 19 Jun 99 - 04:09 AM I'm with Sean M on the caution. There are definitely changes in a) global temperatures and b) the ozone layer. These can be plotted as contemporary with human caused changes in the composition of the atmosphere. They can also be plotted as contemporary with changes in solar weather, volcanic emissions and other natural events. There is an argument. However, if the temperature and ozone changes are due to natural causes, they should have a natural end. If to us, they will not. Or, if they are natural, but are modified by us, they will also not be naturally controlled. We will only find out which is true when it is too late to do anything about it if it is us. It will not do any harm to the environment if we do reduce emissions and the changes are natural. If we don't, and the changes are due to us, we definitely will. Some of us may fell that our lifestyle is damaged by emission controls, but all of us will find that if we get it wrong. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac@home Date: 19 Jun 99 - 07:41 PM Thanks Penny good insite. However, (not picking on you Penny. The air is cleaner, the days of heavy smog are down considably (sp?) from twenty years ago. The problem? The old gas would break down after a period of time. This new stuff dosn't. The result? Poison in the ground water! Now they are pointing fingers in all directions. Some say "We new this was bad, years ago". etc. every sort of BS you can think of. This happened because they had to "Do Something". So "Something" was done. However the proper reasearch wasn't done. Now we pay...again. BSeed, regarding freon. I worked as a field service engineer for many years. (Finigan was the company.) One thing that tipped me off on some of this was, I repaired a machine for a lab right here in California. (about 1979 or so.) The scintist then told me that there would be a big flap about freon and Floro carbons. The reason, His company didn't have the pantents on it. They wanted to sell THEIR refrigent. I laughed at the very idea. I'm not laughing any more. Don't think that because I bring this stuff up, that I'm not for science, or sound research. But when someone is jumping up and down screaming about something, check them out, even the car that they drive. I could tell you about a 3 million dollar thing that was shoved down our goverments neck, because they bought the inspector a new pickup truck, but nobody would belive me anyway. The fact is it's not a nice world out there, they don't teach you this stuff in HS. I had to learn the hard way. Oh well, 'bout the only thing you can do, is try and keep your eyes open. Don't believe every thing you read, or see on TV. -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Bert Date: 21 Jun 99 - 02:08 PM Hmmm.... there's always two or more sides to an argument. Fadac, you make a good point about the quality and objectives of research. However, very few of us are knowledgable enough to verify the claims of either side. Back in the Fifties, scientists were predicting the symptoms of global warming. The one thing they were saying was that if pollution continues we would start to see unusual extremes of temperature. Pollution continued and we are seeing extremes of temperature, records being broken at both end of the scale on a regular basis. I don't know how unusual this is. They also said that dumping sewage in The River Thames was a problem. When I was a kid we went for a camping holiday on the Isle of Sheppey (in about 1949). We played on the beach, building sand castles, digging into the deep golden sand. I returned to the same beach in the early seventies to find black sewage sludge covered with about half an inch of dirty grey sand. There are some things you can find out without a scientific study. Trouble is people don't seem to be able to take a sensible course through this maze at times. Take DDT, it's indescriminate use caused serious environmental problems. Unfortunately, panic and ignorance won the day and instead of controlling the use one of the safest insecticides known, we banned it and now allow indiscriminate use of much more powerful poisons. With the use of DDT the WHO had reduced the incidence of malaria to about 1 million deaths a year. Since the banning of DDT, malaria is returning towards it's old level, which was two and a half million deaths a year. Another case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater is halon. It needs control, not a complete ban. Halon fire extinguishers should have been excluded from the ban. One tiny puff of halon can extinguish quite a large fire, and the pollution is minimal when compared with a house burning down. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 21 Jun 99 - 02:59 PM Bert, Good points all. BTW never NEVER use Halon on a desel engine. The engine will run on it, and produce phosphine gas. It's ok on gas (petrol) engines. Intresting point. How is the air quality in London, now, compaired to when everything ran on coal? Wasn't most of the infamous Londong fogs caused by coal smoke? I never argued against basic research. Also, in the UK during the time of Roam, didn't they raise grapes, and make wine in the UK? How big are the grape fields now? What changed? Was the change man made? Who knows for sure? I watched a program on the Discovery channel. They talked about climatic changes. About 100,000 years ago, the climate would have very radical changes over a 50 year period. ie, snow in Flordia, then palm trees in New York. Wierd things like that. So it is possable to have a very radical change in a very short time. Can people cause changes? Sure, I believe they can, how much is the question. 5%, 20%, 100%, 01.% Now it's a matter of finding the degree of change. BTW, I heard that the biggest cause of ozone distruction in the southern hemisphear was caused by cows in the cattle ranches of South America. Seems that they burp methane. This sounds far fetched to me, but I am sure that some persentage could be layed there. On the other hand, what has the effect been on world health, now that refergration is cheep and avaible? How many lives have been saved because of refergration? Story: A god offered to make life much easer. Travel would be simpified, one could travel any where any time. However the price was 50,000 lives a year. To be paid in blood. This was unaccaptable to man, and the god's offer was rejected. Then the automoblie was invented. Happy Monday, ;o) -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Bert Date: 21 Jun 99 - 04:07 PM Fadac, When they cleaned St Pauls Cathedral in the Sixties they said that it was the first time that it had ever been seen as clean as that. When it was built, the bottom part was black from the coal smoke before it was finished. The clean air act worked wonders. In the winter of '63 I was in one of the London 'Pea Soupers' and they said at the time that it would be the last one. I don't know how it's holding up now, haven't been there since 1980. I think that there is still a prize being offered for the first salmon to be caught in the Thames. It might happen soon, evidently one was caught in one of the other English rivers recently. May have been the Mersey, but I'm not sure my CRS is acting up. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Penny S. Date: 21 Jun 99 - 04:16 PM Fadac, you're absolutely right on the smog. It went with the coal. Now the air is clear, well, clearish, except on hot summer days when we get photochromic (?) smog: you know, that brownish haze which sits above petrol burning conurbations. (I've finally got a car with a catalytic converter, but I'm not sure if it helps.) As for grapes, they're on their way back, and the English wine is quite acceptable. They're being grown further and further north. The reason they went is probably the Little Ice Age, which was natural in onset, and natural in ending, and may have been associated with solar weather changes, the period called the Maunder Minimum, when there were no sun-spots. (Apparently, high sun-spot years are good vintages, so if you know the cycle, you don't need one of those wine-buffs lists of best years.) We are also on the edge of the cherry growing range: Kent now has fewer cherry gardens, but that is more to do with agricultural economies (the fruit has to be picked by hand from large straggly trees). My neighbouring shopping mall was built in a chalk pit (visible from space), which wiped out a good many of the gardens which supplied smoggy London. Fortunately, one remains nearby, and I make regular trips through the season, as the varieties vary. (So far, Early Rivers - dark red and juicy, Mertons Glory - white, big as small plums, and now Merchant - also dark red and sweet/sharp) (Afraid I don't eat imports from warmer climes - the supermarkets don't support our own growers.) Silly methane story - there was a vicar whose digestive system produced the gas - and when he went to blow out the altar candles........!!!!! Penny |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Peter T. Date: 21 Jun 99 - 04:45 PM Sonny Rollins, the great saxophonist, has a new CD called "Global Warming" yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jun 99 - 04:50 PM Fadac, you say that logging is "about shut down in the USA." I was wondering if you have data to back up that statement. In the forested areas I visit regularly in the Sierra and Oregon, I haven't noted a significant reduction. It does seem that there isn't as much logging of old growth (virgin) timber as there used to be, thank God. The second-growth stuff is being logged, though. There's more selective cutting than there used to be, and less clear-cutting. It's great fun to watch helicopter logging in the Sierra. Those skycranes carry out huge bundles of timber. From a distance, you can't see any evidence of logging. Oh, I suppose the exhaust from the helicopters has some effect on the health of the remaining trees, but I can't imagine it's that significant. Sure seems to me that it must be better than clear-cutting. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 21 Jun 99 - 05:50 PM Joe, Your right. I'm being quite selective. Privatly owned land is still being logged. I was raised in Port Angeles Washington. This is (was) a big logging area. My friend from HS was the son of Priest Logging. The biggest logging outfit in the area. (Also invented many safty items for logging, automatic choker, porta tower, ect.) When I last talked to Howard, they had given up logging and he was now appraising houses for a living. Priest logging proabably had 100-300 men working for them at there peak. (guess on amount but they were a very big oufit.) Now their gone. I plan on going back up that way this Sept. on a motorcycle trip. So I will be looking to see whats going on up there. I agree, what little old growth forest left, should be left alone, parts of the Olympic Pennusla have been logged three times. -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 21 Jun 99 - 05:57 PM Penny, Bert, Thanks for the info! Penny I think you hit a very intresting nail on the head. Things do change from time to time on their own. Remember reading about the year without summer? The very same year that Krackatola blew up. Guess old mother nature has a tendincy to do what she darn well pleases. In spite of man. (Or to spite man, if you ever had storm damage. ;o) -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Penny S. Date: 21 Jun 99 - 06:31 PM October 16th 1987, We had storm damage. 17 trees down around a third acre garden. And I had to get to Chatham for an exam. With a tree in front of the garage door. I also had an emergent cold and had been up most of the night. Woke up with the noise, looked out of the window, saw trees bending over at impossible angles, thought, "Oh, it's a hurricane, better shut the windows." Sometime later I remembered my sister's what to do in a cyclone sheet, and that I should have opened them, but it was past by then. I also saw the pulses of discharge from the power cables, and turned off my power, and went round the neighbours to check they were OK. With the guttering falling. Funny how you forget a hard-hat when you need it. Then I decided to sleep (!) downsstairs, out of range of the chimney. So, I set off down the road, climbing though the trees, and picked up a lift from a fellow student. We made it to find three others. One had biked from the Weald, having had to leave his home by carrying the bike through the woods as his drive was blocked. One had hired a taxi from Thanet. They all wanted to sit the exam then! I didn't. And we weren't allowed to as there was no heat or light. Thank goodness. That was some damage. But very rare here, of course. Only the second in 200 years, I think. And then there was another only a short time later. This sort of weather is getting more common. El Nino is getting more common. And there does seem to be a synchronicity with human produced CO2. I really don't want to risk the consequences if it is down to us. I think we should err on the side of caution. The smog, after all, was down to us entirely, and is, here and in LA. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 21 Jun 99 - 06:40 PM Penny, Wow, big wind! I live on a boat here in the SF bay, I have seen 75 kt. winds in the harbor.
The LA (California.) is a lousy place for a city. They recorded smog there (from tree rings?) for over 400 years. I guess natural fires and the natural inverson layer would cause some of it. However it is quite cleaned up, I understand the smog days are way way down from what they once were. Now the additve in the gas, that makes for clear air is posioning the ground water.
-Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Penny S. Date: 21 Jun 99 - 07:07 PM Houses near me had the gable ends sucked out. Didn't know about the smoke evidence in tree rings, which is interesting. There is a chap here in Kent, who runs zoos, which he funds from casinos, who is reportedly of the opinion that there are too many people everywhere. He is reported to feel that we should be culled, but until then, he will use us to support his gorillas. It's not just the numbers, though, is it, but also that we now form our social groups over a much greater area than in earlier societies. I travel a lot further on a weekly base than my ancestors. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 22 Jun 99 - 11:21 AM Penny, Yup, we people love to cluster up. I fly a light plane here in the San Francisco area. You fly over the city and it's just people, cars everywhere. Then in only a few minuites, (like 10 miles) nothing. Not a road, house, or anything. There is a patch of small mountians between the San Jose/San Francisco bay, and the centeral vally. (Where all the big farms are) This is a distance of only about 30-50 miles. When you fly over that, you think your over Montana. You see the radio towers on the tallest hills, dirt roads going from place to place, and a few farms houses. I think the farm houses are from the old Spanish days of 150 years ago. I shudder at the thought of having to put a plane down in there. You could be there for a week before anybody found you. (That's why I carry a survial kit.) A couple of years ago, the Civil Air Patrol was looking for a downed light plane. What they found was a WWII B-17! (The also found the lost Cessena.) They had to go by horesback to get to the old bomber. The crew was still aboard. However someone had stolen the engins, guns, personnel effects of the crew. The airplane was reported missing in 1942. This was inbetween Reno and Sacremnto, less than 50 air miles. Hmmm, why did I just enter all that? duh? Well to show the clustering effect I guess. I know the bay area is getting worse and worse for traffic and all. I hope to move out of here in five years. This hamster is ready to find a nice small town. Like Eurika, or perhaps some other small coastal town. I'm just not a big city boy. :o) -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Jun 99 - 02:04 PM Penny, it sounds as if you are near Maidstone. Come to Hazlitt folk one Monday! |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 22 Jun 99 - 02:29 PM Fadac, does it still qualify as a "light" plane when you're in it? --seed BTW, this is Sonja's week for Quinn's, so I guess I'll be there (third week in a row). and another BTW: in all of your recent posts you talk about playing accordion. Are you giving up on the concertina? |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 22 Jun 99 - 02:57 PM Bseed, I am volume enhanced, but the deffination of a light plane is one under 12,500lbs gross wt. So my Cessena with me and even YOU in it, still qualifies as a light plane. However you might bump your head.
No, I'm not giving up on the concertina. I practice at least three times a week with it. I don't have real big play list for it, but I try and keep it going.
I'm just not that good...yet. I feel like I'm right on the edge of "grocking" music. But then the carrot moves away another step, then I lunge for it. The accordion is a wonderfull key, to my music education. It's really helping me understand the structure of music.
-Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Penny S. Date: 22 Jun 99 - 06:14 PM Richard, Fadac might think I am near Maidstone. And Monday is staff meeting night. But I'll bear it in mind. Fadac, Kent is not like the Bay area. the reason we have had difficulty building the Channel Tunnel rail link is because, without being clustered, people are everywhere: all the villages are within easy walking distance of the next ones in any direction. (Well, easy if you're used to it.) A friend who came from your area was a bit puzzled by our inability to find food to live off the land in the countryside (not impossible, but a sensibly balanced meal at any given time would be a problem), when the answer is that we don't need to. In the south, you are never far enough away from a meal to need to start living off fat. Kent is small farm country - especially as farms were inherited by gavelkind, which divided them among all the sons. And among the rural lives are the commuters who travel into London to work. We have very fuzzy edges to our cities. That's probably why I have to travel so far to be with people I like. And here I am getting another invitation to do it more! Even so, people can get lost. War archaeology groups still find lost fighters, sometimes with crew. I find it a bit sick to see displays of the parachutes which could have saved them. And I knew a farrier whose farmer father, from a village in the North Downs, got frostbite while he was stuck in snow one winter, and no-one knew where he was. (That was before it got so much warmer!) Penny |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac Date: 22 Jun 99 - 06:43 PM Penny, I got to stay in the midlands (around Manchester) for six weeks. I was working for a scintifice analisis company. I enjoyed my time there. It was a bit confusing for this big yank, but I was able to figgure most things out. I liked it enough, that I'd like to come back and have a real visit. Like to see Concertinas at Witney. Things are a bit weird here in the US, in that on the East Coast, poping over to Europe, is a no brainer. $99.00 flights (I guess.) and off they go. Here on the left coast, Europe is a big deal. Hawaii is a non brainer. Although, if I came, I'd probably settle some place like the Isle of Sky, or some other friendly, foggy, wet, damp place. When I was in Germany, they told this story of the local man that found a 500lb bomb in the woods. He thought it would make a dandy ashtray in his house. So he put it in his garage next to his new Mercedies (sp?) lit the cutting tourch. He won't need an ashtray where he went. A sponge and a spoon maybe, but not an ashtray. We used to watch a series here called UXB. Oh, when I was there, they were digging in a house, and found a bomb in the basement. It had been there for all these years, and nobody knew it was there. I guess they still find ordnece from WWI from time to time. (yech, touchy stuff, that.) On distances. I have found that many folks from that part of the world, really don't grasp the size of the USA. I used to tell people that driving from San Francisco, to New York, was like driving from London to Moscow. I lied. London to Moscow, is like driving from San Francisco to Chicago. You are still a 1000 miles short of New York. Maybe more like from London, to Bagdad. (Use a string and a globe.) I wonder the the normal driving comute is there? Here it is not unusual to drive for two hours each way, to and from work. That equates to from 50-75 miles. With traffic. I'm lucky, I only drive for about 20 min. Even on the east coast, the hams talk about working all these states and wonder why we can't do that here. The north east of the USA has states that we would call counties here. Lots of contrasts. For example, when you think of California, you might think of Los Angeles. However we have some counties that have a lower population density than Montana. I remember when I was in the UK, I rode with this gentlman we were going to go check out some bagpipes (for me.). The trip was about 15 miles. Well, I did buy the gas, but we had to check the oil, test the tires, double check the map, and clean the sparkplugs befor heading out on this journy. I just couldn't tell the poor guy, that I drove farther than that, to do my laundry. Guess that's why we Americans love our big cars. We spend way too much time in them. Oh, we loose a few skiers here every winter. And a few swimers in the summer. -Fadac |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Penny S Date: 22 Jun 99 - 06:56 PM Guess you met an obsessive! Most of us aren't like that! Not even my father. Commuting times are about the same range here, though not always distances - traffic density has an effect. There are certainly people who travel the same sort of distances daily as you quote, though. Some have longer journeys still. Penny
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Dave Swan Date: 22 Jun 99 - 06:59 PM Bert, I must rise to the soapbox for a moment. Your statement about Halon is true. It does extinguish fire effectively, however, it is nothing you want to be around when it does. Halon works by excluding oxygen from the atmosphere, so it works best in an enclosed space. Humans and Halon are a pretty bad mix.If the O2 exclusion doesn't get you, the combination of Halon and the CO2 in your lungs forming a weak acid will get you later on. It is also important to remember that if the fuel you have extinguished is still hot, as soon as O2 re-enters the atmosphere re-ignition is a real possibility. Halon is clean, therefore a good choice in computer facilities where there is often a deadman switch which disables the Halon system until all personnel have cleared the room. I haven't yet met the property which was worth the life of my crew or the people I'm paid to protect. If anyone reading this has Halon for home use please strongly consider replacing it with dry chemical powder, a much safer choice. Climbing down off the soapbox now, a Mudcatter who is also a firefighter, Dave. |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Penny S. Date: 22 Jun 99 - 07:06 PM Fadac, forgot to add, when people move house round here, it's a good idea to find a local bomb map, and make sure the property isn't near a gap in a chain of known explosions. Or, indeed, near a known explosion. There used to be advice to look at the roof structure to see if there were re-tiled patches, but that clue is usually invisible now. We had several controlled explosions when they were building the approach road to the Dartford Bridge (Not anything as good as yours!), but I think they may still be one short on that. UXB's in London penetrated the clay below the soil to some depth, and went in slantwise, so can be hard to find. Children still find old anti-personnel bombs at times. I grew up with "bomb-sites" a common feature of the local landscape, and it was a long time before they were all re-developed. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: Fadac @ home Date: 22 Jun 99 - 11:11 PM Dave, I heard that a Desel engine will run on Halon, and generate phosphine gas. (brrrr) I'd like to use CO2 on the boat. Dry Chem, will get the fire out, but if it plugs the pumps, you might just sink. Sinking will put the fire out too. |
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Subject: RE: Global warming, ozone, etc... From: harpgirl Date: 22 Jun 99 - 11:49 PM ...I imagine that at first the world will be like it was in the movie "The Fire Next Time." Eventually it will be like "WaterWorld." If we don't colonize the Alpha Centuri planets before this, I won't mind reincarnating as a gilgirl...water pleases me... but I shudder at the beginning of Hurricane season because I think these mounting hurricanes are the portenders of our fate...of course there is always the "butterfly effect", which could be a giant volcanic ash cloud or a meteorite smashing into earth...harp (please comfort me when the hurricanes heat up in a few weeks everyone!) |
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