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Lyr Req: Manchester Rambler (adapted from MacColl)
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Subject: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,charlotte Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:49 AM I've once heard this song revisted and adpated to a place in Ireland. All placenames have been changed for this new version. I would like to know if somebody have ever heard this kind of adaptation on this song? |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:52 AM No, I'm glad to say. I'm from Manchester and used to do most of my walking around the Dark Peak where a young Jimmy Miller composed the original, inspired by the mass trespass on Kinder. What a terrible thing to do to a folk classic! Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,charlotte Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:08 AM I think it's because she became a folk classic one that this song is sung in pub like a traditional one, and by this way adapted to other places. In Ireland it is a tradition to adapt maybe just for one night a traditional song. But, what is strange in doing that on this one is that the meaning is really modified… In the one I heard, it became more a praise of the place than a political saying. cheers |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:16 AM Makes it even more of a shame, Charlotte, because the political message is, to my mind, the most important bit of the song. 'No man has the right to own mountains any more than the deep ocean bed' To that extent I suppose it does not realy matter where you are singing about. But I would rather it let people know about the Mancunian experience:-) Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:18 AM Oh yea - and before I foget - The Irish have already pinched 'Dirty Old Town'. Ewan, Salford by birth, Scot by nature, must be turning in his grave! :D |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: johnadams Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:24 AM In the late 60s I was a keen caver and a member of the Orpheus Caving Club in Derbyshire. 'The Manchester Caver' was a regularly sung adaptation of the Rambler, probably sung every Saturday night in 'The Quiet Woman' pub in Earl Sterndale. Sample verse: Oh the day was just ending as I was descending A pot that they call Eldon Hole It's two hundred feet deep and half full of dead sheep And a few speliologists old I've been seven times to the bottom So I thought I'd do 'Nettle' instead For sooner than part from the caverns I love I think I would rather be dead. The sense of the song stays the same. J |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: The Borchester Echo Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:24 AM Hmmm. This smacks of Mr Miller's Shoals Of Herring becoming Shores Of Erin. John Tams updated the Manchester Rambler with a new chorus: Nothing changes, it all stays the same, They're selling the moorland for profit and gain. They've sold all the rivers, bought all the rain And you can't go up there, you're disturbing the game. Cod's roe, caviar, milk stout and champagne, Gold cards and dole cards but never the twain, That's the game, that's their game Nothing changes, it all stays the same. which really does keep to the spirit of the original and updates the important political message. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:50 AM And if you can ever find a copy of Flat Earth by Patterson,Jordan,Dipper. (which isn't easy!). You can hear our version of Mr Tams variation and make your own mind up!! |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Paul Burke Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:57 AM It seems like nearly all the best known Irish traditional songs were adopted in the last century and a half. That's not surprising really, though, as Ireland went from about 75% Irish speaking to 95% English speaking over that time, helped on the way by Phytophthora infestans, free- market economics and a liberal American immigration policy, and I'm sure we don't begrudge them a few songs to replace the sean-nos. What rather annoys me though about many of the Irish transhumances is the ready resort to cliche- you'll usually hear the Manchester rambler, even when they keep the Manchester references, starting "I'm a rambler, I'm a gambler"- singing without understanding, or even perhaps thinking. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:13 AM "Manchester Rambler", Can't see how it can possibly work in an Irish contest without extensive alteration. The song was written as part of the protest movement to open up the Peak District for walkers. While there is a desperate need for such a movement in Ireland (thanks to intransigence by the farmers), as far as I can judge, this hasn't developed much further than protest letters to the press. "It seems like nearly all the best known Irish traditional songs were adopted in the last century and a half." Would be very interested if you could expand on this Paul. In my experience it has always been extremely difficult to determine which songs were of Irish origin and which were English, there was such a wide exchange of repertoire via the navvies, various occupying troops, tattie howkers, returning emigrants. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Flash Company Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:56 AM Benny Rothman, the original Manchester Rambler lived quite near me, and remained a thorn in the side of authority until his death in 2002. One of his last protests was about the closure of the level crossing at Altrincham and its replacement by a footbridge, which added considerably to his walk into town. FC |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,Noreen Date: 02 Dec 08 - 08:26 AM >What rather annoys me though about many of the Irish transhumances is the ready resort to cliche- you'll usually hear the Manchester rambler, even when they keep the Manchester references, starting "I'm a rambler, I'm a gambler"- singing without understanding, or even perhaps thinking. Paul, the phrase "I`m a rambler I`m a gambler" comes from the song "The Moonshiner" which is better known in Ireland then the Manchester Rambler; I certainly knew it before I ever heard Ewan MacColl's song, and I have always assumed that's where Ewan got his phrase from. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Surreysinger Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:15 AM "if you can ever find a copy of Flat Earth by Patterson,Jordan,Dipper. (which isn't easy!)." By what I now realise was absolute pure luck,I actually managed to find one for sale on the internet a few months ago - I tried to find another one later, and to absolutely no avail. Without wishing to sound partisan, I have to say that PJD's version of John Tams' song is very well worth more than just one listen (the cheque's in the post, Ralphie!) I'll echo Diane's comments on the song. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM I think the point is, Noreen, is that the phrase is NOT used in the original words so Ewan did not actualy 'get the phrase' from anywhere! I'm a rambler, I'm a rambler from Manchester way... To sugegst he got that from 'The Moonshiner' is stretching it a bit - IMHO:-) Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,charlotte Date: 02 Dec 08 - 10:04 AM David, why do you reject the idea that some culture can communicate and draw one's inspiration mutually? |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Les in Chorlton Date: 02 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM Dave's right about the political context it's absolutely crucial. After the Mass Trespass came The Ramblers Association, The National Parks, The Pennine Way, The CROW Act and with a bit of luck a Path Round the Coast. I am not suggesting that none of these would have happened or that the song is crucial but they are all wrapped up with an attitude to wild places and the people who cared most and campaigned long and hard for it all. Earlier this year I sang the Manchester Rambler in a small town in east Cuba. Can you imagine.................... L in C |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,Working Radish Date: 02 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM the closure of the level crossing at Altrincham and its replacement by a footbridge I know the one you mean, I think (whenabouts was this?) I'm struggling with the footbridge, though - do the cars go over it or the trains? |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Dec 08 - 10:47 AM David, why do you reject the idea that some culture can communicate and draw one's inspiration mutually? Do I? That is one weird question. To be honest, I don't even understand it. Is it like 'Does my bum look big in this?'? :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,Working Radish Date: 02 Dec 08 - 11:15 AM More like "When did you stop hating the folk process?" |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Spleen Cringe Date: 02 Dec 08 - 12:54 PM Of course, if they're planning mass trespasses on privately owned land in Ireland in support of free common access ...and someone wants to amend the Manchester Rambler to reflect that campaign, I think it would be a mighty fine thing and I'm sure the ghost of Jimmy Miller would smile down kindly on the perps. If its just a case of altering it to make into a song about walking around places and this alteration loses the political message that is the heart of the song, that would be sad. This still matters to a lot of us city dwelling weekend hill-walkers. Were it not for the mass trespasses we probably wouldn't have the freedom to walk those Peak District hills we currently enjoy. Here's the plaque at the foot of Kinder Scout on the Hayfield side. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM Dirty Old Town is a different matter - it happens to have been Salford in McColl's mind when he made the song, but it might as well be any run down city. If people assume that it refers to the city they live in, or the city the singer comes from, that doesn't change its meaning significantly. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Dec 08 - 03:38 AM I don't really object to people using McColl's song for other purposes- as I've often said, every traditional singer has to recreate their songs to incorporate their own meanings, that's really what distinguishes "folk" from "art" music. And they rightly wouldn't care much if I did. What gets me is the apparent singing of songs as mere word lists- and my perception is that in the subgenre of Irish pub traditional songs, this is what often happens. Dirty Old Town is a bit worn out now, but back in the 30s it reflected the real experience of many, including my father. Then you hear it as an upbeat, country- style song, the words just being incidental- it's clear that it means nothing at all to the singer, and all the American-Irish delivery and bass backing represents to the audience is a bland acceptability that the original song doesn't possess. Turning the rambler into a gambler turns him from a fighter for justice to a more glamorous, less challenging, acceptable figure. Willy McBride becomes a weepy rather than a protest, and rusty shrapnel is indeed to good for that kind of delivery. The wild rover's penitence is lost in a boozy goodtime haze. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:18 AM Exactly, Paul. And don't get me going on the drunken, raucous delivery of 'Auld Land Syne' that most people will achieve in about 4 weeks. OK - Auld Robbie B was a bit of a lush himself but I think he must be spinning to see what us sassanachs have done to his sensitive song of times gone by! :-) Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:35 AM BTW Dave "To suggest he got that from 'The Moonshiner' is stretching it a bit - IMHO:-)" I've always suspected that this is where Ewan got Manchester Rambler from. At the time Peggy was putting together his songbook she approached us with around a dozen of his songs and asked us if we could suggest the origins (we came up with Tunnel Tigers = William Taylor, Shoals of Herring = Famous Flower of Serving Men - managed them all in the end). Manchester Rambler wasn't among them, but at the time of writing he was regularly using popular songs of the day for his tune sources, and Moonshiner would have fallen into that category. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Morris-ey Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM "And if you can ever find a copy of Flat Earth by Patterson,Jordan,Dipper. (which isn't easy!). You can hear our version of Mr Tams variation and make your own mind up!!" Coincidentally,I was listening to that just last night... |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:39 AM Slight thread drift here, but it's possible to take any song, really try to get into the meaning of the words, and change the feeling. PJD tried that with Rounding The Horn, better known as Amphitrite, and normally performed Shanty Stylee. Nothing wrong with that, but it's really a very wistful song when you examine the lyrics IMHO. Horses/Courses?? Just a thought. Regards Ralphie |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM Well, you do surprise me Jim! I am sure you are the person who knows such things so I will bow to your superior knowledge of Ewan and his works. I always thought the Moonshiner was more akin to the Wild Rover and on looking it up it seems one of those of 'vague origin' in itself. He still never mentioned Gambler in the original though and I will stick by my guns to say it should remain firmly a Mancunian classic:-) Pretty much like the Smiths or Simply Red. Well, maybe not... :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Musket Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:47 PM Thinking on, many years ago, a bloke used to get up in folk club near us and sing it as The Sheffield Rambler. Not trying to sound precious for an original here, but it was rather cringingly awkward to hear. I suppose the mass trespass idea was not interfered with, but excruciating all the same. If folk music is about recording cultures etc., then you can make an argument for a song being adapted. Elton John changing Candle in the Wind is an example of just that. Parody is another. I suppose that is different to, (and I heard this again the other week) words changing due to lack of hearing... The old music hall song Pomona is about The Pomona Palace at Albert Square, near the Pomona Docks at Salford. How many times have you heard people singing Lamona? Perhaps we shouldn't get too precious about it as nothing stops things being cracking songs. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Phil Edwards Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM He still never mentioned Gambler in the original though Yes, this is the important point - McColl's song may have been based on a song where 'rambler' rhymed with 'gambler', but there's nothing to suggest that the TMR character is a gambler - or anything else other than a guy who likes to go for rambles. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Noreen Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:00 PM Who ever said that there was anything to suggest that?? I never said anything to detract from the Manchester Rambler as a song and a great composition, nor against Ewan, so you can retract your prickles, Dave! I pointed out the similarity which I have always noted between two songs, the chorus of one beginning "I'm a rambler, I'm a gambler", the chorus of the other beginning "I'm a rambler, I'm a rambler"; both being in the same time signature and the words having identical meter for the first two lines. Since you agree you don't know the song to which I was referring, you might have looked into the suggestion before assuming any mention of an Irish connection was a criticism of Ewan? |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Noreen Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:33 PM Jim- I'm champion at keeping 'em rolling = Limerick Rake springs to mind too. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Paul Burke Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:40 AM How about posting it, Noreen, so we can see? |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Schantieman Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:17 AM The Rounding of the Horn aka The Gallant Frigate Amphitrite is not and never has been a shanty. It was possibly a forebitter or, perhaps more likely a shoreside song. It was collected in 1906 (ish - I can't find my copy of The Singing Book of English Penguins at the moment) in Southport from an old sailor, William Bolton. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: The Borchester Echo Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:32 AM Amphitrite isn't a shanty? No, of course not. It's about faked phone-ins on children's television, innit? (My book of penguins says it was collected in 1907 which is exactly when Biddy Baxter joined Blue Peter). |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:05 AM Ooooooh. Handbags at 10 paces eh? Noreen, If I need to retract my prickles, of which I beleive there was no evidence, you need to loosen your corsets a notch or two:-) What on earth brough that on? You said you had always assumed that Ewan got the phrase from the moonshiner. I said I couldn't see it myself. Jim brought some more evidence and I bowed to his personal knowledge of Ewan. End of story, so I thought! What song have I agreed that I do not know and what indicates that I thought there was any criticism of Ewan? Not that I would mind even if there was - I don't like the Manchester Rambler tune anyway! If you just want to pick a fight, fine, I think we are friends enough for that, but let me know why. Please:-) Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Noreen Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:42 AM Posting these Paul? They are both in the DT: Limerick Rake And I'm champion at keeping 'em rolling They are both sung to the same tune. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Noreen Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:46 AM Moonshiner at Celtic Lyrics.com manchester rambler in the DT Re-read what you wrote, Dave. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:41 AM Anything for you, Noreen:-) OK. Done that. What now? :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:01 AM For anyone who hasn't seen John singing this lovely song, on Youtube: The Manchester Rambler - John Tams and Barry Coope |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: The Borchester Echo Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:27 AM John Tams has not, however, recorded his reworking of The Manchester Rambler, for which he uses the tune The Farmer's Toast out of Marrowbones. For that you need to find WildGoose WGS 309 Flat Earth. (Wonder how much I can get for mine?) |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:38 AM A very nice version too - With nothing detracted from the message. Thanks for the link, Lizzie. DeG |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Micca Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:49 AM I have always had a problem with a particular verse of this song in which the central character immorally, brutally and callously, jilts his Fiancé at the altar, In my view completely morally bankrupting his professed "caring" persona! |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Dec 08 - 02:53 PM Dave Re- Moonshiner. At the time of writing MacColl was not intending to write deathless verse but rather to devise something that could be picked up quickly by anybody - that is why it became as popular as it did - it doesn't detract in any way, as far as I'm concerned from it being a classic; Mancunian or otherwise. It was something he did all the time in those days - how about: That lovely night, the night we met, There where whistling bombs in the air, No bankers dining at the Ritz And the refugees slept in Berkley Square I may be right, I may be wrong, But the newspapers say it's no lie, The rich folks children sailed away And left all the workers kids to die. Simple, to the point, and very, very obvious As he developed as a singer and writer his technique became more subtle but he never abandoned the technique of using another tune unaltered - as Noreen pointed out - Champion = Limerick Rake, Tunnel Tigers = William Taylor, Che Guevara = Banks of Sweet Primroses. One of his best songs IMO was The Joy of Living, a straight lift of a Sicilian traditional tune. I was re-wiring the lights in their home while he was writing the songs for a Festival of Fools and he used to drive us bloody mad wandering about the house whistling and humming under his breath until he had finally adapted a tune to fit what he had written, at which point he would sprint upstairs and record it. Peggy said that he used the 'Famous Flower' tune at least a dozen times for songs he'd written; I could only ever recognise one - Shoals of Herring. Regarding the original question - personally I find the Tams/Coope version far more offensive than any Irish version I have heard - talk about the bland leading the bland -a good, powerful campaigning song gelded as far as I'm concerned - but that's me!. Micca: "completely morally bankrupting" I trust you are joking, but I fear you aren't. I presume you have the same objection to songs about old men who can't get it up any more - ageist or what? And as for all those bloody whaling songs..... oh dear, where to draw the line (whoops - was that the complete works of Shakespeare flying out of the window?). Personally, I believe that all those god-awful hunting songs were the result of a secret policy carried out to lobotomise the rural population of England, but I would go down and fill my pint or have a pee while they are being sung rather than to prevent anybody from singing them. Taken to its logical conclusion, we'd all end up singing 'I had a little nut-tree' (that is, if it didn't offend us republicans). Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Phil Edwards Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:01 PM the central character immorally, brutally and callously, jilts his Fiancé at the altar I think he was doing her a favour. What girl wants a man who gets all his pleasure the hard moorland way? The alteration that bugs me, incidentally, is when people who (presumably) aren't familiar with the term 'wage slave' sing I may be a work-slave on Monday Or then again you may have a relatively easy job with good terms and conditions - you'd still be a wage-slave, chummy. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:48 PM "...nothing to suggest that the TMR character is a gambler" - well, taking part in a mass act of civil disobedience does involve taking a few risks in the hope of gaining something that matters to you. That's a kind of gambling. .............................. "you'd still be a wage-slave", and a work slave as well, even if the pay is good and the conditions decent. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Dec 08 - 07:22 AM Aren't lambs known to gambol about the fields? Maybe it's just the spelling. Ralphie - totally agree. Sing 'All for me grog' at half the speed and without the Drunkard's Chorale, as demonstrated by Martin Wyndham-Reid (on 'Sunlit Plains' I think?) and it becomes a lament from a weary man who knows he's not welcome any longer and must leave to seek new fortunes or die in the process. And it's not even about the sea. LTS |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,Working Radish Date: 08 Dec 08 - 08:48 AM taking part in a mass act of civil disobedience does involve taking a few risks in the hope of gaining something that matters to you. That's a kind of gambling. At the risk of taking this much too seriously, that's actually the wrong way round - gambling is a concentrated, artificial version of "taking a risk in the hope of gaining something". Trying to achieve any goal involves taking a risk in the hope of gain; gambling, on the other hand, just gives a pure hit of the risk/gain combination without the goal or the achievement. That's why it can be addictive, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Barbara Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:31 PM Does anyone have the words for John Tams' reworking of this song? I see the chorus posted above, and part of the verse is from MacColl's original. But I would love to have the rest. Blessings, BArbara |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Tattie Bogle Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:59 PM Sorry I don't Barbara, but I was just going to say that there's another re-working by Ed Miller, as the "Edinburgh Rambler" which features many Scottish locations. It otherwise sticks fairly closely to the original words, and in the CD sleeve notes, Ed says he also hates to see signs saying "provate property" and "no trepassing" on land that seems to be made for rambling. And the chorus is" I'm a rambler, I'ma rambler........." Nae gambling please! |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: JohnB Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:43 PM Well David el Gnomo "stuck by his guns" in a prior post. If the Keepers and Groundsmen and other paid thugs had stuck by their guns, the so called "trespassers" would have been Gambling for sure. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: Tattie Bogle Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM No law of trespass in Scotland! |
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Subject: RE: 'the manchester rambler' revisited From: GUEST,henryp Date: 08 Feb 09 - 07:56 AM Barbara, you requested the words John Tams sings. He sings three verses. I'm told you can hear him singing his version, with Barry Coope, on YouTube, so you can see if his words agree. Manchester Hiker's Song (AKA The Manchester Rambler) I've been over Snowdon, I've slept up on Crowden, I've camped by the Wain Stones as well, I've sunbathed on Kinder, been burnt to a cinder, And many more things I can tell. My rucksack has oft been my pillow, The heather has oft been my bed, And sooner than part from the mountains, I think I would rather be dead. Chorus There's pleasure in dragging thro' peat-bogs and bragging Of all the fine walks that you know; There's even a measure of some kind of pleasure In wading through ten feet of snow! I've stood on the edge of the Downfall And seen all the valleys outspread, And sooner than part from the mountains I think I would rather be dead. Chorus So I'll walk where I will over mountain and hill And I'll lie where the bracken is deep; I belong to the mountains, the clear running fountains Where the grey rocks rise rugged and steep. I have seen the white hare in the gullies And the curlew fly high overhead, And sooner than part from the mountains I think I would rather be dead. From The Topic Songbook published by the WMA. The water industry in England and Wales, including its moorland catchment areas, was privatised by Mrs Thatcher's government in 1989. |
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