Whittlesea Straw Bear

Subject: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Wheatman
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 05:55 PM

Dear Mr Fox
We have heard through the grape vine (it's a small town) that you intend raiding Whittlesea Straw Bear next year. Please consider this, your group is neither welcome nor invited to attend.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Old Roger
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 03:33 AM

What's all this about. I was planning to come to the Straw Bear day. I have always enjoyed it before.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: My guru always said
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:04 AM

Not sure if the first post is some sort of private message, but very surprised by the tone of it!! Perhaps this is not the right place for that & obviously casts a shadow here regarding this lovely traditional weekend!

I'll be at Straw Bear as always, a wonderful (but cold) weekend. Note to self - extra pair of socks....

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:32 AM

Wheatman,

Could I suggest that you contact Mr Fox directly, it is a bit unseemly to make such an approach in so public a manner, for this purpose I went onto Mr Fox website and found their contact email which I have attached below. PS I have no connection with either the Strawbear or Mr Fox
Cheers

Raggytash


[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Paddywack
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 11:07 AM

Raggytash You stick to organising train trips at Whitby, hope next years one comes off.
Whats the old saying about washing dirty linen in public. I always found the strawbear weekend absolotuly brilliant

Paddywack

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,wheatman
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:41 PM

Sorry Catters if the content of my message did not meet the protocol of your message board and has upset you. I sent it before discovering their web site address. They will be contacted directly now. It was a desperate measure in desperate times to try and avoid any situations in town on the day which will bring the straw bearers to criticism from the "officials". At the moment we are involved in delicate negotiations and we do not want the 30th straw bear to be the last in its present format. Any actions on the day which are not built into our program will be seen as a lack of responsibility on our behalf and will have repercussions on future events even if we have no prior knowledge or control of the performers or their performance.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM

All sounded very bad-tempered and ill-mannered. And ill-directed too - after all, merely typing Mr Fox into Google would have given their website and email address.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: treewind
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM

Send 'em off to wherever the Good Easter Molly Gang are going this January - they won't be at Straw Bear either.

There's a rumour flying around that Ouse Washes are planning to revive the Ramsey Straw Bear - apparently there used to be such a thing. The proper day for it the day after Plough Monday. Maybe that'll take some of the pressure off the getting-too-overcrowded Whittlesea event.

We'll be there with Pig Dyke Molly

Anahata

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 02:07 PM

Sorry to subvert the thread, though it appears an upopular one. Just wanted to say that I checked treewinds Pig Dyke Molly page posted above and thought it fascinating. A Carnival of Inversion and Ladies of Misrule..

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 04:00 PM

Pig Dyke Molly are a superb side,one of the best.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: treewind
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 04:17 PM

Pig Dyke are very proud of the fact that their other musician Tom Sennett is next year's straw bear. Mary and I, together with Chris the percussionist and Dave with his world famous sousaphone will be making sure the band is up to strength for Pig Dyke's dancing at Whittlesea.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 04:20 PM

I had a great chat with Dave when Pig Dyke were in Sheffield a couple of year's ago, super bloke.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:27 PM

According to Mr Fox's website, "A raid is when we do a show just for the hell of it - we'll pick an event where there's already an audience, and then go in with all drums blazing."

Sounds very arrogant and ill-mannered to me. I think Whittlesea are entitled to be upset about it, especially if it puts their own event at risk.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Fascinus
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:05 PM

I saw Fox once at Whittlesea and they were great. Very exciting and dramatic, and the crowd loved it. We all thought it added to the weekend.

I'm going to be there in January as a member of one of the invited teams, and I feel a bit deflated now. Seems like there'll always be the fun police :-(

Fascinus

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 07:34 PM

"your group is neither welcome nor invited to attend"

"Thanks but no thanks" might have been a rather better tone to adopt. In an email.

If the winter goes on the way it seems to have started I can't see myself braving the icy fens. Maybe now I won't mind that so much. It all sounds a bit sour - "we are involved in delicate negotiations...Any actions on the day which are not built into our program will be seen as a lack of responsibility..."

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: selby
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:44 AM

First of all I have nothing to do with Mr Fox I have sen them many times and enjoy them but having been involved in a event where they performed the scare the s**t out of the elf N safety brigade fire bangs and 6 foot foxes.I also have nothing to do with straw bear and have never seen it but I can understand (perhaps that a word to think about) Wheatmans problem he is probably fighting local officaldom with utter frustration and he hears this, local officals also hear things and he has to block it to protect the bigger event.
I once saw a risk assessment on a rapper side which the local council where trying to block in our terms a group of dancers enjoying themselves in their terms a very very dangerous occurance coming out at high risk a lot of effort was put in to ensure they performed. IMHO don't castigate Wheatman understand his problems andsupport him

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:51 AM

Well I will be at Straw Bear and am looking forward to it very much as I do every year. I'm sure there won't be any sour atmosphere because the organisers have stated their position on uninvited guerilla groups. I can fully understand Wheatman's situation. I know from involvement with other festivals and simlar events that keeping the local authorities and licencing people on side and on message is like walking on a tightrope and the whole event can be jeopardised by unexpected "stuff" happening.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:04 AM

Paddywack !! I was only trying to avoid a fracas !!

Train journey to Glaisdale should be OK for this year and possibly the sea trip to Staithes which was a great success. If the weather, tides, skipper are all agreeable we will do it again in August.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: treewind
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 06:10 AM

The Straw Bear organisers are not to blame for having a strict position on uninvited or un-cooperative groups. They are under a great deal of pressure from the local council (on the grounds of safety) that has resulted in changes in the way the day will be organised this time. I've just seen an email sent to all visiting dance teams detailing the changes - mainly that there will be only one main procession.

If Mr.Fox try hard enough, there even won't be a party for them to crash next year. I don't think that's what anyone wants.

I do see the irony though, that what started off as an event that's obviously part of the seasonal misrule tradition is now hampered by risk assessments, endless negotiations with the local authorities and the police and the need to conform to rules and guidelines.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:47 AM

I haven't seen them, but I'm sure that Mr Fox put on an excellent show. That doesn't justify them gatecrashing someone else's event.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:59 AM

What Howard says sounds about right. I don't know all the ins and outs of this issue and there's probably more than meets the eye. Nor do I know anything about Mr Fox. But as a principle, sides shouldn't turn up to perform unless invited. Padstow wouldn't like it. Bampton wouldn't like it. And as others have said, we have to beware of the Health and Safety police or else we will lose these events.

Tradsinger
(who intends going to Whittlesea - as a member of the public)

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:03 AM

I suspect that if they tried it at Padstow they'd end up in the harbour.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Chippinder
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:18 AM

Apart from anything else it's pure bad manners to gatecrash in this way. I'm sure it doesn't do Mr Fox's reputation amongst right-minded people any good at all!

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: treewind
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:19 AM

if they tried it at Padstow they'd end up in the harbour.
Right.... There's plenty of cold watery places around Whittlesea...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Mr Duck
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:08 AM

Mr Fox are overrated anyway! Once you look past the fire and the out of time drumming it's pretty pathetic. If they turn up I'd suggest a simple spray with a garden hose will dampen their show.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:39 AM

Would the same kind of restrictions apply to people wishing to play musical instruments or sing songs without written permission in advance from the organisers and the local council?

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:57 AM

To McGrath,
It's not the same. I would hope that anyone wanting to play or sing in a pub would first ask the landlord (or landlady) if that was OK. If the answer is no, then you can't do much about it. It's not usually a case of getting written permission. In the case of Whittlesea Straw Bear, you have local organisers, so it is polite to ask them if you want to perform. As made clear in the above posts, they have to tread a thin line to keep the event going. We may rant about the petty bureaucracy of the authorities, but that is the reality.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:07 PM

Since so much has been said about Fox, much of which I feel is unwarranted, may I claim a right of reply?

(Where "Morris" appears below I have used the word as a generic term and it is intended to cover Cotswold, Border, Molly North West, Longsword, Rapper, Mumming etc. etc.)

1) I shall be attending Straw Bear on the 10 January. That is where I celebrate my birthday.

2) Maybe we are not quite so brash and bold as we like to make out. When a Fox Raid is conducted, someone within the host organisation is always "in the know". The group draws its membership from throughout England — from Kent to Newcastle, from Wales to the East Coast. As we are masked and hooded can Wheatman tell with any certainty who each individual member is?

3) On previous visits to Whittlesey Straw Bear we have performed on private property and have not claimed to be a part of the event. Appropriate permissions have been obtained from the owner of the land as they would be by a "Morris" team. We have not overdanced the outdoor activities of the day and have waited till it's dusk and the invited teams have finished. We have no wish to detract and distract from the excellent procession and displays.

4) Unlike the majority of Morris and related teams, prior to a gig Mr. Fox in person conducts a site visit and then completes a lengthy Risk Assessment which is sent to all interested bodies (Police, Fire and Rescue, Health and Safety…) We have never yet been refused permission to perform by any of these bodies.

5) I feel it is very important for the future of the "Morris" to maintain some form of misrule, riot and mayhem in this, the 21 century, at a time when public events are becoming so sanitised, and Wii and Guitar Hero are starting to rule music, song and dance. We (Fox) don't dance the Morris and have never claimed to. However, Cotswold. Morris was never intended to be the polite middle-class activity it has become. Nor was Border or Molly or the Plough Monday activities or Straw Bear. With a few notable exceptions, many "Morris" teams are, in the present day, unable to draw a crowd — the punters walk away. They walk towards Fox and often stay past the conclusion of a Show. Fox was created fifteen years ago in the spirit of controversy, anarchy and freedom of speech, or in this case, dance. I am glad we have managed to do what we set out to do and appear to be doing it so well! (By the way, I'm not saying we're great dancers or drummers; I'm saying we're great at doing what we set out to do).

6) We don't dance looking for the critical approval of other dance teams — we perform to entertain the public, And, we rarely appear at Folk events these days — though not through lack of invitations!

7) Members of Mr. Fox don't get so drunk that they piss in the street or throw up in the gutter which I watched with horror at Straw Bear 2007. If they did (and in full kit to boot) they would be "dismissed without reference". So Wheatman, look to what you ARE organising, not to what you AREN'T.

To conclude — as a dancer, singer, musician, folklorist and festival organiser of some fifty years standing, I DO understand Wheatman's problem with Fox. But he is making this perceived problem far greater than it actually is. Despite popular rumour, I can be a reasonable and understanding Vulpine. However, having been so publicly attacked (and on a forum I rarely access, at that) I feel the urge to respond!

Yours in person,

CJ Fox.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: treewind
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

Thanks for setting the record straight Mr.Fox. It's easy to get the wrong impression and as you might expect from the last paragraph of my previous posting (no, not the one about the cold water) I like the sound of what you do and why you do it.

Kevin: I hope it's clear now that the issue that the authorities have is with crowds in the streets, not the sessions in the pubs. The procession blocks traffic on the road and the audience obstructs pedestrians on the pavement. 30 dance teams have been invited to Straw Bear and that, together with the many visitors that come for the day, is a lot of people in a place that's no more than a big village.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 05:18 PM

I'm just thinking of the last time I went to the Fleadh Ceoil in Clonmel a few years back - sessions in the corner of every pub into the small hours, outdoor sessions of musicians on pretty well every street corner, surging crowds in the main streets, a fellow out in the middle of them with a big log and a hammer so people could compete to drive nails into it...

That's real health and safety.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

Focs (what a remarkable coincidence) is based on the Catalan for "fires" e.g "tens foc" means do you have a light for my cigarette.

In Manresa they have a "Correfoc" literally "running fire" with thousands in the streets and hundreds of thousands of fireworks being let off, mostly it seems at once. All the fireworks let off would probably be illegal in the UK, at least without supervision they would be.

These are fireworks.......

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Bill t' bodger
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

It is a strange coincidence also that quite a few of the members of Mr Fox have attended the Correfoc, and will do so again when possible.

I hope the matter is now put to rest and this thread can concentrate on what is happening at the Straw Bear because I would rather hear what is happening and who is there than who you don't want.

ps whatever happened to good old misrule, or is that just the Governments place (mind you they are good at it!)

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: My guru always said
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 04:24 AM

Thanks to Mr Fox & Wheatman for making things clear from both viewpoints!

Things 'going on' at Straw Bear normally include a very crowded Sing on the Saturday night at the Boat hosted by Derek & Mary. I'd be surprised if this wasn't happening again this year *grin* Anyone know of any Sings on the Friday?

*Note to self* don't drink too much on the Friday.....

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,a fox
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 07:15 AM

While we all understand the threat to these sorts of events from the ever-increasingly draconian health and safety rules, can we keep in mind that if nobody attempts to resist this trend, we can expect it to continue to climb until we are not allowed to dance at all, lest we twist our ankles. Fox raids are more pre-planned and better organised than any other public performance I've taken part in. But the appearance of misrule is key to their partial purpose of maintaining a sense of excitement and unexpectedness in the event raided. As Mr. Fox pointed out, someone in a management position has always given permission, but the fact that the audience doesn't expect us is, in my opinion, a great boost to the sense of wonder and excitement they experience when we arrive.

Oh, and Mr. Duck: are we proposing to ban all teams who occasionally lose the drumming or stepping? I think you'll find numbers dropping rather precipitously...

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,ploughboy
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:26 AM

I am all for keeping up tradition but fireworks at strawbear ain't. Surely there must be events that would love fox and co to attend especially free. I have full sympathy with wheatman don't gatecrash anyones event it take too long to get the authorities on your side, this can be blown in 10 minutes.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: treewind
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 01:42 PM

Well, if we're to believe what our vulpine visitors are saying, the Straw Bear organisers know they are coming and have agreed to this. I hope that's the case...

Springing a carefully staged surprise on your audience can be far more effective if the event organisers have secretly agreed and planned for it. Just turning up without warning could meet with unexpected problems and go off like a damp squib.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST, Lilith61
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM

ploughboy et al...

Oh dear - the Foxy fireworks issue again!

Just for the sake of accuracy and, so events who DO want a Fox raid or to actually pay them to perform are not put off forever, they DON'T use fireworks. What they appear to set off are wired stage effects that emphasise set points in their performance. I mean - would you dance within six feet of or jump over a live or active outdoor firework? These effects put out quite a flash but no bangs or sparks and they are set off by remote control.

They (Fox) appear to have a great regard for their own safety and that of the audience while appearing wild and dangerous.

Believe it or not, some people do enjoy watching them. I travelled from the midlands to Rye Bonfire Night in Sussex last year just because I had been told Fox were there. Pity they aren't at Whittlesey - it's much nearer home!

Lilith60

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST, Lilith60
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

treewind...

Re the para 2 of your last posting. Do you think that is really the case? If so, sod the in-laws - I'm of to Whittleaey on the 10th!

Anyone know if there are any B&B's that still have vacancies?

Lilith60

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,ploughboy
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 03:30 AM

Treewind, read wheatmans opener it don't look as if he has secretly invited them to me. more like if they turn up they may get a rocket up their own arse

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: treewind
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 04:05 AM

Sure. I raised the question with an open mind...

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Phil (Ouse Washes)
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 05:01 AM

It's funny this muddy stuff, do you have to use an alias? I presume Wheatman is Brian without whom none of this would ever have happened. Ouse Washes are not planning an alternative Straw Bear in Ramsey, however. Nicky Stockman and I have, as our day jobs, the wonderful task of teaching molly and associated Plough Monday traditions across Cambridgeshire primary schools. For the past term we have been working in schools in Ramsey, Whittlesey, Benwick and other local villages and towns. As part of our work we have found out a lot about Plough Monday traditions in the area and have even met people who went plough witching in the Ramsey area when they were children. There are also fantastic accounts of these activities written by Sybil Marshall, who grew up in Ramsey Heights. Plough Monday in Ramsey had four elements; the ploughboys going round with the plough and getting up to mischief, the children going plough witching in the early evening, the molly dancers visiting houses and pubs and someone dressed up as a Straw Bear. Interestingly the Bear was dresssed in oat straw, so perhaps Wheatman ought to be Oatman. The Bear was not seen on the Tuesday, as in Whittlesey. As part of our project, which is called Cambridgeshire Roots, pupils from Alderman Jacobs school in Whittlesey will be dancing in their home town on the Saturday and we will be reviving Plough Monday celebrations in Ramsey on Jan 12th. Over 400 pupils will follow the plough through the town from the primary school to the green in front of the old Abbey gates. There will be over 220 dancers, and when they perform together it will probabaly be the most people who have ever danced molly together, ever. And, yes, someone will be dressed as a Straw Bear. Ouse Washes will accompany the kids and dance with them. If you're interested in coming, or taking part, go to the website Nicky runs, www.ploughmonday.co.uk for more details.
Phil

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,Wheatman
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 05:56 AM

Thank you Plough Boy and Anahata you are absolutely spot on. I would not have posted the original message if Mr Fox had been invited to 2009 Straw Bear. Where was the spontaneity in that? With regard to fireworks, if a maroon is not a firework then what is? but there again I am not a certificated pyrotechnic as, we are assured, Mr Fox, is. The history is as follows. The Strawbearers received an enquiry from the Roman Catholic Church about a request from Mr Fox to utilise their car park (private estate owner) for a public performance at Straw Bear 2009. They were unhappy about the previous use of their premises and some of the members of the church had complained to the Strawbearers about damage to the surface of the car park caused by heat and paint. It was only at the time of complaint that the estate owners realised that Mr Fox were not an invited performance group. The strawbeares try to take heed and respond to all such complaints from the local populace. Therefore the organisers have to accept a share of responsibility for the actions of others during the festival even if those actions fall outside the official program of events. To use the words of the Licensing Officer the Straw Bear Festival is the catalyst of all things that happen over the week end whether we like it or not.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,AND!
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 08:50 AM

There's absolutely no element of personal grudge here at all.

No, sir.

Not even a little.

This is all entirely rational.

Honest.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: GUEST,disillusioned
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 11:36 AM

This thread highlights why morris dancing is dying. Although my team is attending Whittlesea, I won't be with them. Petty politics within teams, between teams and now with festival organisers is killing folk dancing. Everyone involved with folk should support each other. There must have been a better way for Whittlesea to have had constructive dialogue with Fox. I guess it must be time for me to give up dancing altogether. Another nail in the morris coffin.

Subject: RE: Whittlesea Straw Bear
From: Widmerpool
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM

It strikes me that, if I wanted a group to be petulant and rebellious (and if I wanted them to be looking for ways to make my life more awkward) I'd start off by ordering them around, without giving reasons and in matters where I had no authority. If, on the other hand, I wanted them to be cooperative, I'd start off by contacting them in private, explaining my dilemma, and asking them to help me. If I followed my demands with reasons only after I was challenged, it would look like post-hoc justification.

As the person who has been responsible for contacting Fr. Slack on behalf of Mr. Fox. I can say with some authority that we have never represented ourselves as being part of Straw Bear; that, on the three occasions when he has been happy to host us, we have always cleaned up after ourselves; that he has never told us of any problems; and that the reason he can't accommodate us this year is that he has another event that night and needs his car park. Also that the local residents who let us use their storage shed for our equipment were never under the impression that we had any connection with Straw Bear.

Anyway, enough of this - it's all becoming rather undignified and you won't hear any more from us on the subject. If anyone wants to continue the discussion you know our email address.