2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:26 AM

Most of the past winners I can remember off hand Lauren McColl; Jarlath Henderson; Kathryn Roberts; Uiscedwr; Tim Van Eyken; Last Orders; Bodega; Siobhan Miller and Jeanna Leslie were traditional.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 10:00 AM

I have no objection to entrants or even winners not being traditional. But the term 'folk', as we've understood it for the last half-century, has included new music written within a traditional framework. When Bob Dylan emerged, it was evident that his music was following in the footsteps of Woody Guthrie and others, and the whole 50s/60s American 'contemporary folk' genre stemmed recognisably from Old Time/Appalachian/Blues roots. Similarly, the output of British writers such as Ewan MaColl (SP?) was within traditional parameters. A lot of the stuff I'm hearing these days isn't. As I said in my first post, I have a pretty broad definition of Folk Music. But I'm not hearing much these days that lies within that definition.
Referring back to Folknacious' jibe; I was young (early 20s) when I first sang in the folk clubs. And here's a shocker for you: I was a singer/songwriter. I could, however, even then, tell the difference between 'contemporary folk' and 'other stuff that isn't folk'.
None of this has anything to do with age - mine or anybody else's.
John Kelliosaur.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 10:05 AM

One small note of minor correction to Diane - there are no heats as such, recorded entries to semi-final stage as I understand it.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 12:49 PM

well, now you've all had a moan here's a link to the piccies...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/galenadivaneleven/3095723864/

---

Please remember to use a consistent name when you post. Messages with the "from" space blank, risk being deleted. "Guest,guest" is not an acceptable poster name.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Cotswold Maid
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 01:58 PM

Just had a listen to Lavender Man on My Space. With a bit of scrubbing up, I suppose it could be called folk. But what I object to majorly, is the fake rubbish American accent. What's that about? You're English aren't you? Well start singing in your own accent then. Can't imagine anyone is going to bother seeing them at festivals this summer, too many other good acts young and old to see

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:16 PM

oh yes and I think the judges are confused about folk and "folk" which my twenty something daughters listen to, the likes of Laura Marling, Noah and the Whale, the Fleet Foxes etc, which seems to be twee indie music with acoustic guitars and some non-pop instruments. Well, it's not folk as we know it, and you can't fool all of the people all of the time, as they will vote with their feet. I guess the Henwoods will get a slot at Cambridge, but that's about it. I well remember a gig by the said Mr Moray at Ross on Wye just when Sweet England had got a folk award, and I think he decided that he didn't want to be in the folk backwaters. Half of the audience walked out, and it took him a long time to recover. Don't get me wrong, I love Low Culture, but lots of people never forgave him, and he was at the bottom of a quite bad bill in the Bedford at Sidmouth this summer. All in all, I don't believe the Henwoods have a future in folk, let's get back to traditional music, lyrics and accents, interpreted in a fresh way; Bellowhead seem to have succeeded very well doing this

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Someone who was there
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 07:06 PM

It was a great night and all the finalists were of a high calibre in there different ways. Tyde were energetic and tuneful. Lucy Ward sang a song of her own and then wowed the audience with a funny and spirited version of Mike Waterson's "Stich in Time". Maz O'Connor was haunting with her rendition of Cruel Mother. Emily Hoile and Alice Burn were technically superb and The Jaywalkers were interesting in their choice of songs but I agree with an earlier contributer (Folknascious)that the fake American accent let them down a tad. However I can't agree with the same contributer that Maz and Lucy "showed their immaturity", listen to Mike Harding tomorrow and I'm sure you'll be able to make up your own minds. As for Megan and Joe Henwood they performed their songs competently, it is always difficult judging the quality of original songs on first hearing however Megan is without a doubt a fine singer songwriter and she has an interesting voice.

At the interval judging by the talk over drinks the favourites seemed to be Maz O'Connor and Lucy Ward with Tyde also in the running.

However it seemed on the night that the award was given for contempory song writing, not performance and certainly not folk.

I think Jim Moray who presented the award said something along the lines of "dragging folk into the future" As we left some people expressed their surprise at the outcome, but as it had been a good night's entertainment, and free at that, most people left happy.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:55 AM

Its easy to see where Joh kelly's coming from.

You reckon these people will be playing loads of festivals. theres John (proabably the finest most original singer of traditional msong in England) and he won't. or if he is, he'll be hustling for a two song spot in the club tents - which doesn't give him a chance to show that he can play more instruments than I know the names of.

And dragging folk into the 20th century !   that's bloody rich coming from the Corporation that won't play jack hudson - because he's neither folk or country. Won't play No Fixed Abode because they're not folk. Half the time, they won't even publicise their gigs and the clubs that book them.

The thing is you could choose to be a member of one of these farty little groups of musicians that Mike harding and Mick Peat dutifully cream their jeans over. But you have to be born with voice and talent like Jack Hudson or Una walsh of No fixed Abode.

Basically what sickens, is an oligarchy of mediocrity.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Jim Moray
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:39 AM

"I think Jim Moray who presented the award said something along the lines of "dragging folk into the future"

I said no such thing. It's one of my most hated phrases and I wouldn't inflict it on anyone.

I'm increasingly sickened by Mudcat which has turned from "highly opinionated but essentially fair" to downright nasty recently. You should be ashamed of yourselves - the broadcast of the finals hasn't even gone out yet, Megan and Joe haven't made an album or played any gigs yet and you're all willing to judge based only on hearsay and a myspace page containing a completely different set of songs in a different style. Say what you like about me, but please please stop kicking two very talented performers (one of whom is 15...) before they've had a chance to prove themselves.

Give them time to develop before you judge. It's only fair.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Jim Moray
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:43 AM

Also, I've just gone to listen to Jack Hudson and No Fixed Abode. Where can I hear John Kelly?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 05:56 AM

John will probably send you a cd if you contact him.

heres a website I roughed out for him. I'm no great shakes on webdesign as you can see. He deserves better:-

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/johnkellyharmoniumhero/index.html

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:10 AM

Give them time to develop before you judge. It's only fair.

Jim,

Thanks for commenting. I understand that you don't relish having your judgment second-guessed by a bunch of people who weren't there on the night. All the same, I don't see how an artist can be ready to be raved about but not ready to be criticised. In any case, I don't think anyone's said that Megan H. can't sing (they'd need their ears tested if they did). What people have said is that her material doesn't appear to be folk - and that's got nothing to do with how developed her career is.

As for John Kelly, no, he's not on MySpace - but if you haven't managed to see him in person or got hold of his excellent CD, you can hear a couple of songs here. If one of them doesn't knock your socks off, you must be barefoot.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:17 AM

Jim Moray: there have ben one or two vitriolic posts on this for sure, from the usual suspects. But don't say Mudcat is sickening because one or two excessively angry people write here. Mudcat is not an entity with a mind, it's a board you stick notices on. Most of the discussion on this thread is perfectly even tempered. Some people are saying some performers aren't folk performers. Fine, if that's their opinion. The word has many meanings to many people.I think Bach writes classical music. I don't think Hendrix plays clasical music. Those are not nasty or nice remarks. They are just my use of language. I happen to like Bach and Hendrix immensely.
Likewise people saying these young award winners are not folk is not a criticism.It's a classification.
I express no opinion, I haven't heard them yet. I look forward to it. Judging by people's favourable responses, I will enjoy them greatly. Whether they are folk, punk folk, psyche folk, acid folk, twisted folk, rap, hip hop, medieval plain song or George Formby covers..

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:24 AM

It's about the Young Folk Awards.

It ain't about John Kelly or Jack Hudson or the BBC and its policy on folk music.

Jack has been around a long time, plays mainly American music as far as I can tell - years since I have seen him. Not much on the web to judge him on recently as far as I can see.

John is an excellent singer - and I saw him recently - but to describe him as "probably the finest most original singer of traditional song in England" does put him on a very high pedestal and I am not sure that's exactly where he deserves to be. BUT you may be right.

You and I may differ on our opinions on the finest this that or other but that's an opinion on Mudcat.

In the end what will help artists more than anything else is whether promoters like musicians and singers and whether people who buy tickets for folk events will come and see them. Word soon gets about who sells tickets amongst people who buy tickets, and amongst promoters.

And no amount of mudcat opinions or folk awards will alter that.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:46 AM

>All the same, I don't see how an artist can be ready to be raved about but not ready to be criticised.

>If you don't want to be judged by your Myspace page, then what the hell is it there for?

>But don't say Mudcat is sickening because one or two excessively angry people write here. Mudcat is not an entity with a mind, it's a board you stick notices on.

>Most of the discussion on this thread is perfectly even tempered.

Pip & Greg & HH have beaten me to it. It's not Mudcat, it's the internet - being able to say anything you want to, publicly and immediately (sometimes too immediately). And folks all over the world can do this anonymously, any time they want to. This is a pretty new phenomenon in communication, and the dust is still settling (if it ever does, human nature being what it is). Don't blame the forum for the quirks of the medium. I hate to see one of the best non-mainstream music sites around dissed for factors that are common to all of them (at least those that allow any measure of freedom of speech).

It also always seems to involve selective reading - what about all the reasonable, mild-mannered posts? People have a right to like what they like, and to discuss their opinions freely without being scolded by Headmaster.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 06:56 AM

well the thing about Mudcat - unlike the BBC - it is democratic and its us that decide what the thread is about. And frankly its pussyfooting around and letting the warm glow of entirely unwarranted self satisfaction suffuse BBC's take on folk music that has got us in the merde in the first place.

For the information of the ill informed.

Jack Hudson is from the Derbyshire and has spent (god help him) his entire career within the English folk club movement. he draws his inspiration from American singer songwriters, but he mainly writes about his own rather strange life.

You may find him less than engaging, but he is prodigiously talented and more so than any thing any folk radio programme will be playing last week, this week or the week after.

Both Jack and Una Walsh (of No Fixed Abode) are possessed of voices that stop audiences in their tracks. The continued ignoring of both talents by the BBC is an act of sustained nastiness that has been allowed to go on too long. Nothing you could read on mudcat could hope to come near it in the nastiness stakes.

I am right about John Kelly.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM

Dave
          Sorry but you are so far wrong about Jack Hudson it must be embarrassing for you. Guess your opinion is based on seeing him 30 years ago…………. Even murderers receive a shorter sentence than Jack Hudson has been given. Jack WRITES great songs….yes WRITES songs, good enough for Jack to be asked by BBC Scotland to perform at Celtic connections (one of the most prestigious music festivals in the UK) last Feb….still I am sure you knew that Dave. Sadly unlike some Jack keeps a dignified silence about his achievements. The reason you see little of Jack and ourselves here on mudcat and in folk clubs is because we both work at taking our music to a new audience. Jack and ourselves are doing a gig on the 29th of this month not in a folk club but in an old mill. We have sold 70 tickets so far and expect to reach the venues capacity around 100 This is by word of mouth..and yes we guess half the audience will be from folk clubs but half will be just people who like good music.   …..but please don't tell anyone……………..we would not like to upset people who are clearly trying to keep folk music a pure breed.

Tony and Una

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:13 AM

Sorry we are the guest above

Tony and Una

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Jim Moray
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:15 AM

No, this isn't about having my judgment second guessed. It's about crushing young people before they have had a chance to do anything. All I'm asking is that you reserve judgment (good or bad) till you've heard the act in question, which most people on this thread emphatically haven't - how anyone could find fault in that is beyond me. Whether it is or isn't folk is another issue but, again, how can you make that call without having heard the music?

I understand that Mudcat isn't an entity but a messageboard, but there is a nasty hive mind that seems to have developed recently towards anyone who isn't part of the gang. Reading it back, I retract the wording of my earlier post, but not the sense of unease. I wasn't intending to offend anyone, but I don't like seeing performers who are still legally children cut down simply for doing something positive.

Congratulations to all the competitors and particularly Megan and Joe. I look forward to hearing lots more of the music they all make, whatever direction it takes.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:22 AM

'there is a nasty hive mind that seems to have developed recently towards anyone who isn't part of the gang.'

pretty rich - when you consider how exclusive of everyone outside of dull middle class Radio 4 conformity the BBC is!

Music for the ISA's crowd. Don't miss Moneybox!

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:34 AM

Jim Moray said:

"I look forward to hearing lots more of the music they all make, whatever direction it takes."

.....and that really is the only question. They are undoubtedly very talented, Megan has a stunning voice. BUT the only music we have access to from them really isn't all that "folky" . I wasn't lucky enough to be at the awards so I look forward to hearing something from them that represents more accurately their performance.

This is an important award.... I hope it sets the winners on the road to success......within the folk genre (and I ain't no traditionalist). It would be disappointing for those young people who are working within the genre (and encouraging others to do so) if the winners take off in a completely different direction.

I hope this is not seen as a vitriolic comment....... it is not meant to be.

Paul

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:42 AM

Paul - anything you say will be taken down and used as evidence of your vitriolic and abusive character.....

You never actually wanted your musicto be on a BBC folk programme, did you?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:52 AM

You don't have to be "lucky" to go to the YFA. Anybody can, I usually do (8/10 over the past decade) and you don't even have to buy a ticket. Failing that, you can hear samples of the finalists on 'tInternet beforehand then broadcast on the MH show afterwards.

Only after you have done all these (and preferably more, like seeing the acts at a gig) are you qualified, and entitled, to make a personal judgment. Unless, of course, you are possessed of a big mouth, a headful of prejudice and fond of mindless scribbling on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Jim Moray
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 07:58 AM

WLD, I have no connection with the BBC - I speak only for myself. If there is a secret handshake to be part of their crowd then nobody ever showed me. If you want to think of the BBC as an enemy then don't lump me in with them too.

"I look forward to hearing lots more of the music they all make, whatever direction it takes."

.....and that really is the only question

yep.

I think highlights from the final are broadcast tonight at 7pm for those that didn't get to be there. It was a great night from start to finish so I hope it translates well to radio.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:05 AM

"You don't have to be "lucky" to go to the YFA"

Just across town for you Diane....a 400 mile round trip for me, full time job, babysitters required.....need I go on. I would have to be lucky to get a "pass out" to be there.

Is the sample that you refer to still available? I will gladly take a listen.

"Unless, of course, you are possessed of a big mouth, a headful of prejudice and fond of mindless scribbling on Mudcat."

.......Thanks Diane, that's really helpful and has improved my day no end.

Paul

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:10 AM

'Unless, of course, you are possessed of a big mouth, a headful of prejudice and fond of mindless scribbling on Mudcat.'

talk about people in glass houses.....

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:35 AM

one thing that constantly surprises me about *young people these days* is how conservative they all sound. The truism used to be that people mellowed and grew more reactionary as they got older. We live in strange days, where it seems like The Kids gravitate to a middle-of-the-road easy listening default.

To be brutally honest, I think it is totally understandable why some people thing folk is a joke, when they are presented with acts like these flagged up as the best of a generation. If there were a BBC Young Grime MC of the Year award, or a Young Techno Act of the Year, or a Young Experimental Noise Act of the Year, you would hear a degree of attitude and imagination and flair that would put these acts to shame.

I know people always moan about these sort of award ceremonies. But, really, the music of the winners is genuinely awful. Michael Parkinson territory.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 08:46 AM

say what you want about Michael Parkinson - if you send him six quid a month til you're dead, you get a free biro.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

JIm Moray: I hope you aren't including me in your appraisal of the character of Mudcatters. I'm not in anybody's gang - I've actually been mauled on here a few times myself - and I'm not 'kicking' anybody. I have tried to express my opinions here fairly (go back and read them), and I repeat - yet again - I have nothing against the music in question, or its performance. I will try to hear the MH programme on iPlayer, as I won't really get the chance to hear it tonight.
I have said all this before, and am not being nasty to anybody.

Diane: You seem to think no-one has a right to express an opinion on anyone's music until they have listened to all of it at least six times, and have bought the CD, the T shirt, the tea towel, the signed poster and the colouring-in book. I want you to read this VERY CAREFULLY: I have listened to a lot of folk music, of all shades, over the last half-century, and have been playing it myself in public for forty years, during which time I have sung, played, and danced, solo and with groups, ceilidh bands and dance teams. I have done clubs, concerts, the odd festival, radio and TV, summer season work et bloody cetera. Without wishing to appear arrogant, I venture to suggest that, by now, I should have a pretty fair idea whether or not I am listening to folk music. My opinions stated above are NOT about whether or not these young people are any good, but about what style of music they are playing. Perhaps you would be so good as to take a moment to go back and read my comments again, this time with a view to thinking about what I have said, rather than pointing out with glee that I don't know the difference between The Young Folk AWARD and The Folk AWARDS.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 09:44 AM

And don't worry. You can be a complete scuffler. There are no health checks and no one will come round visiting and checking up on you. BBC personnel joyfully accepted.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM

me.. I blame Sixth Form / Further Education College
Performance Arts courses
for the dire mediocrity
of reasonably technically competant over stylised X Factor aspirational teen wannabes.

Shame their raw inate talent gets so sqashed and over-groomed.

But, like most here, I've not heard any of this new bunch yet..
so genuinely hope they are truly exceptions to the general rule.


Kerfuffle definitely are... so there is still some hope for the future !

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:22 AM

Whether it is or isn't folk is another issue

I think whether it is or isn't folk is the main issue that people here have been commenting on. I've been to the MySpace page linked above & listened to some of the music. What I heard there was tuneful, nicely arranged and well performed, with interesting lyrics and excellent vocals; if everything they do is up to that quality, Megan and Joe should go far.

But what I heard on that MySpace page wasn't folk. To put it another way, I don't know how you'd define folk so as to include that kind of music. I saw an interview with James Yorkston recently where he rejected the label of 'folk' for what he does; he said something like "I just write not-very-popular pop songs". And this is someone who cites Anne Briggs as an influence, has worked with the Watersons, and has recorded Edward, I Know My Love and High Germanie, among others. (And was supported by Jim Moray the last time I saw him, although now I come to think of it that was a while ago. I must get out more.)

Anyway - we (most of us) aren't questioning whether Megan and Joe are good enough to win an award; we're questioning whether they're folk enough to win (or even be entered for) a Folk Award.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

I `ad that Megan Henwood in my cab the other day.
I said, "I see you`ve got`em all riled up on that Mudcat about what is and what aint folk. Even that Jim Moray`s `aving a go, `e who was described by Mike `arding as the "most fantastic" performer `e `ad `eard for years"
She said, "`ave you seen my MySpace slot? What do you think?"
I said, "Yeah, I`ve seen it. I don`t go a bundle on the songs but you`ve got a luvly sofa!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:24 PM

Sorry but you are so far wrong about Jack Hudson it must be embarrassing for you. Guess your opinion is based on seeing him 30 years ago………….

Not as many as that I am happy to say. And I have no reason to be embarassed whatsoever. I often say that artists are not to my taste. I can include virtually any pop, house, garage, bashment etc etc in that. I don't ever remember saying they are no good.

I'd like to see Jack's gig list on his website - except the website seem to be carefully hidden. There is no gig list on his myspace page. Where he seems to be describing himself as a country singer more than anything else. How do I find out where he is playing?

Perhaps he wants to keep his music pure!!

As for yourselves, you are clearly getting lots of paid work and have a website and a myspace so I am sure I will be able to catch your performances as soon as someone in this area books you or as soon as you find a venue to promote yourself (and Jack perhaps).

In fact if you contact Mike Steele at the Burton St. Project Sheffield he will give you a free room and his P.A. All you have to do is provide the audience. Not a folk club but it has a bar and if you want real ale he will put it on once you have convinced him you have sold sufficient tickets to make it worth his while.

I have a radio show. That reflects my personal taste too. If you want to reflect your personal taste via a radio show - many areas have a community radio station nowadays and most are desperate for people prepared to put the time and effort into doing a weekly show.

But I am away for a couple of weeks in January and unless I find someone to cover it then they will play pre-recorded stuff.

I am happy to give you a two hour slot on January 9th and you can play what you like. I will show you how it is structured and I would like you to stick to that, but otherwise the airtime is all yours. Play your own record non-stop if you like.

That date happens to be free but there will be others coming up in
the year.

So there you are a new venue for nothing and a whole two hours of radio to yourself.

Now please don't accuse me of wanting to keep folk pure again.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:29 PM

Just skimming this very rapidly and no, I can't be arsed to reply to everyone personally. So generally, yes I do think people should have the courtesy to find out about an artist and listen to them before whingeing about how they're quite sure they won't like them and they're not"f*lk" (whatever the fuck THAT means nowadays) anyway.

Somebody or other that I've never heard of thinks that being around on the fringes somewhere for x years gives him the right to slag off anybody he feels like. No, it doesn't. Speaking for myself, I never talk about anything or anyone without having first acquired considerable knowledge. No, I don't write professionally any more (nor have I, either, anything to do with the BBC nowadays). So I scribble down answers to queries on fora. For the edification of those who actually want to know. Not for the baying mob of last century, narrow-minded, hey nonnies in tie-dyes to whom professionalism is anathema and experimentation and innovation words that they cannot spell but sneer at anyway.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

and no, I can't be arsed to reply to everyone personally

This is quite understandable. However, maybe next time you could address your comments to statements that have actually been made, rather than shouting at the baying mob of last century, narrow-minded, hey nonnies in tie-dyes in your head? I think it'd be more productive.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:55 PM

. . . and to whoever it was that whinged that the YFA final is just across town for me, no it isn't. A couple of years ago it was at The Sage in Gateshead. So what? If you actually have an interest in who, among the under-20s, is up-and-coming, you GO. Wherever it is.

These performers have worked extremely hard to get where they are. They deserve support. (only in my not so humbe opinion, obviously).

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 01:14 PM

OK Dave we would love to take you up on your offer re the radio show. I suggest we take this off this site so please contact us by email which you can get from our websites as we do not know how to do the private massage thing here on mudcat.

Re venues in Sheffield here is the list of paid performances we have done this year in and around the Sheffield area, The Boardwalk (supporting the acoustic angels) Three marry lads (Cutthorpe) Chesterfield folk club, The Moon (now closed down)The Sanctuary cocktail bar (next to the cathedral)The Cross Scythes hotel Tottley, The Rising sun and the Riverside Cafe.

As well as the above we have been found Loitering for the love of music at Fagins, The Red House and the Sheffield folk festival survivor's session. (Yes we have performed at the festival and MCfat knows us well) So we are well covered for venues in Sheffield.

Thanks

Tony and Una

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:12 PM

One more comment.

Diane:

generally, yes I do think people should have the courtesy to find out about an artist and listen to them before whingeing about how they're quite sure they won't like them and they're not"f*lk" (whatever the fuck THAT means nowadays) anyway.

Jim M:

It's about crushing young people before they have had a chance to do anything. All I'm asking is that you reserve judgment (good or bad) till you've heard the act in question

Quick roundup of comments so far.

Richard Bridge: "Sounds very smoothiechops and not very folk"

Banjiman: "Even with my pretty wide interpretation of what is folk...I'm not sure that the songs on MySpace fit ? ... Lovely voice though."

Harmonium Hero: "THIS IS NOT FOLK MUSIC. Not by any definition I am aware of. ... I'm not criticising the music - It's very pleasant, and well performed - but it shouldn't qualify for a folk award."

Me: "Very nice, very competent, good easy listening. Megan H has a fine voice, which probably sounds even better with less going on behind it. But, if it's possible to say "this isn't folk", then I'm with John - this isn't folk."

Richard was posting without having heard the music, and yes, he was saying that he thought that he wouldn't like them and that they weren't folk. But what Paul, John and I have said is

a) we've listened to the music
b) it's very nice
c) it's not folk

We're not rushing to judgment without listening to the music, and we're not 'crushing' anyone. The music's well written, well performed and generally very nice; the people playing it deserve to go far.

But it's not folk.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

Pip:

Cotswold Maid: "But what I object to majorly, is the fake rubbish American accent. What's that about? You're English aren't you? Well start singing in your own accent then. Can't imagine anyone is going to bother seeing them at festivals this summer, too many other good acts young and old to see "

"I guess the Henwoods will get a slot at Cambridge, but that's about it."

wld: "Basically what sickens, is an oligarchy of mediocrity."

"To be brutally honest, I think it is totally understandable why some people thing folk is a joke, when they are presented with acts like these flagged up as the best of a generation. "

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Martin Snodin
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:26 PM

I was at the awards on Friday and absolutely loved the winning duo. As a promoter, I programme folk/roots across a pretty wide range spectrum (Carthy/Swarbrick, Dougie MacLean, Tams/Coope, Fox/Luckley, Tom McConville, The Winterset, etc - all have appeared for me in the last few months). I enjoyed all the acts last Friday - all very good quality. But for me, Megan & Joe Henwood were worthy winners - I would have voted for them. Taken a listen on the Mike Harding show tonight (or 'Listen Again') - it should dispel any notion that what Megan has on her outdated website is representative.

I do have to agree with Jim that to be overly-critical of budding musicians of this age range must be very hurtful for them. They aren't 'marketing their wares' yet - they just entered a folk awards contest. Proud mums and dads in attendance, I just hope they don't read this whole dispiriting thread.

Martin

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

Martin Snodin, Jim Moray: exactly, well said. The way this topic has gone disgusts me, the intolerant, rush-to-judgement UK folk scene at its very worst. Guilty until proved innocent, the mob damning with at most faint praise and weasel words.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

Ruth - that's two comments from GUESTs and one from a member (Matt M); I'll exclude WLD, as his comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. The tone of those three comments was fairly critical, but I don't think they're representative of the thread. I stand by what I said earlier - we (most of us) aren't questioning whether Megan and Joe are good enough to win an award; we're questioning whether they're folk enough to win (or even be entered for) a Folk Award. That question hasn't really been addressed, as far as I can see; there seems to be a lot of resistance to asking it at all.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Cotwold Maid
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM

OK well we've heard it now, so now am I allowed to say, not folk, dull, repetitive, unworthy winners, set against talented musicians and singers? Some sort of joke?

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:11 PM

No the judges have missed the point.

They are entitled to run the competition how they like.

And I am sure the winners are all very worthy.

However many of us find ourselves excluded from BBC folk circles because folk is defined in a very narrow manner indeed when it suits them.

For myself it truly doesn't matter. For people who have devoted their lives and far superior talents to the world of folk music - quite simply it stinks to high heaven.

That's all.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:17 PM

As suggested here, it should all dissolve into an EBC, SBC, and WBC folk awards but, for what it's worth, I liked the 2 unaccompanied singers - as just heard on MH.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:23 PM

Pip (and you know that you and I agree on many things), I can only say how the thread looked as it's developed. I see where you're coming from, as I was one of the ones arguing during Bunnygate that it wasn't about the quality of the song, but the fact that the category was inappropriate. But these are kids, for goodness' sake.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 03:30 PM

"But these are kids, for goodness' sake."

so why not forget about categorising them
into harsh cruely divisive music genre based
talent shows..

and just bring back


"Junior Showtime" !!!???

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Doffing Mistress
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

I've just looked back on the BBC's original documentation for the YFAs and found this:

"We are looking for the best group, duo or soloist performing folk,
traditional or acoustic music or song with roots in any culture".

So maybe the answer to the conundrum "Is it folk?" is irrelevant.

Having just heard the show it is hard to argue with the judges decision. I was there on the night and somewhat seduced by the performance and personalities of some of the other contestants. I would not have put Megan and Joe at the top. However on radio they sounded worthy winners. Obviously the judges have a much better ear than I have. Maybe there's another discussion to be had; is folk about the songs or the performance, or both.

Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 04:33 PM

I've kept out of this spleen-fest, but am now moved to add my tuppence worth.

It's not the "old giffers who are undoubtedly talented and have something to offer but, when the chips are down, are still old giffers" award.

It's also not the "young traditionalists who are so steeped in the 1954 definition they have it tattooed across their arses" award.

It's not the "cutting edge radio station showcasing edgy, experimental post-folk explorations" award.

And finally it's not the paranoia, paranoia, everybody's out to get me and the bastards at the BBC are whispering derogatory shit at me through the walls again" award.

It's an award for kids doing folk or acoustic material live, handed out by a largely mainstream, MOR radio station. The winners ain't my cup of tea by a long chalk (more of this later), but they tick all the right boxes for the award, do what they do well and are undoubtedly talented, engaging and perfect for that R2 crossover market.

If Ray Davies and Elvis Costello (brilliant artists both) can play Cambridge Folk Festival, people can happily offer us Cliff Richard and Buddy Holly songs at my local folk club and Fleet Foxes (fantastic band!) can be feted as folk's great new hope, Megan and Joe can win this award.

The fact that I would like to see the award won by a motley bunch of deranged teenage fuckwits wreaking havoc with hurdy gurdies, bagpipes, jazzastic drumming and a shitload of reverb, feedback, fuzz, sustain and general mayhem is probably neither here or there, as no such beast deigned to enter, more's the pity. If you are out there, however, PM me. I will put your album out.