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2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened

GUEST,Working Radish 11 Dec 08 - 09:00 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Dec 08 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Working Radish 11 Dec 08 - 09:49 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Mr Oldbugger 11 Dec 08 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 11 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM
Folkiedave 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,TB 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Dec 08 - 12:16 PM
Folkiedave 11 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Dec 08 - 02:39 PM
The Borchester Echo 11 Dec 08 - 03:14 PM
Kampervan 11 Dec 08 - 05:03 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 08 - 05:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Dec 08 - 05:32 PM
matt milton 12 Dec 08 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 12 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM
matt milton 12 Dec 08 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 12 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM
Spleen Cringe 12 Dec 08 - 07:22 AM
GUEST 12 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM
Dave Hanson 13 Dec 08 - 05:12 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Dec 08 - 05:44 AM
Girl Friday 13 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Dec 08 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM
Girl Friday 13 Dec 08 - 08:13 AM
Folknacious 13 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM
Banjiman 13 Dec 08 - 10:30 AM
greg stephens 13 Dec 08 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Mr Oldbugger 13 Dec 08 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Dec 08 - 11:23 AM
Phil Edwards 13 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Girl Friday sans cookie 13 Dec 08 - 01:31 PM
melodeonboy 13 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM
greg stephens 13 Dec 08 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Dec 08 - 02:25 PM
Folknacious 13 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Dec 08 - 05:56 PM
greg stephens 13 Dec 08 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 13 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM
The Borchester Echo 13 Dec 08 - 09:35 PM
Marje 14 Dec 08 - 11:26 AM
greg stephens 14 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM
greg stephens 14 Dec 08 - 11:48 AM
Leadfingers 14 Dec 08 - 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:00 AM

For God's sake let us celebrate the enthusiasm of these young people and welcome them with open arms - we need them to carry the music forward when we are gone.

That's just the point. If that was what they were doing, I wouldn't have said a word against their getting the award.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:28 AM

Er - where did I say I didn't or wouldn't like the music in point?


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:49 AM

It was "Sounds very smoothiechops" that tipped me off. Didn't sound like an endorsement!


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM

I like all sorts of stuff. That doesn't mean I can't distinguish them.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:55 AM

anyone here who aint got an entrenched position or vested interest to defend
and just wants to hear some good new music and performers ?


seems to me, stale bland dull music, 'folk' or otherwise,
performed by young or old potentially talented artists,
on any instrument they care to employ
as a tool of creative musical communication..

is inescapably still stale bland dull music


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM

"And I'm sure Tom Bliss is sufficiently thick-skinned too not to mind if boring old farts don't turn up at his gigs."

Isn't it funny how the morally superior defenders of youth are not above rampant ageism when referring to older people?

For the record, I find the term, 'argumentative old git' more politically correct!


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:11 PM

It may be - but why on earth to you feel a need to say so?

Why not talk about what you like, and just let stuff you don't enjoy pass without comment?

Why not be positive and affirming, rather than negative and critical - about any kind of music?

Self censorship has nothing to do with free speech, its just good manners not to inflict your dislikes on others, and possibly insult or upset someone.

If you use pejorative terms about something as subjective as music, you only make yourself seem narrow-minded. Someone else, with different tastes, may have the polar opposite opinion - and all you are doing is antagonising him.

All you have to do is imagine that instead of chatting to some mates in the pub (who's opinions you're likely to share because they are your mates), you are being interviewed on Newsnight - with millions of strangers listening, and choose your terms accordingly.

Posting on the web is far close to the latter than the former, but so many fail to realise this.

I've been contributing to forums for abut five years now, and I challenge anyone to find any single comment I've ever made that's in the least bit derogatory about any artist. (I'm critical about other things, but that's different). There's lots of music I'm not keen on - but I survive very well without telling the world about it.

I will talk about music I like though - because that's the sunny side way, and I'm a sunny side kind of a guy.

It's never necessary to be nasty about any kind of art form.

If you don't like it, walk away.

And if it really isn't much good it will quietly fade away through lack of interest.

Tom


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

Let me offer some quotes:

Correct winner - terrible program.....

What a dreadful program - no disrespect to the [...] young people involved, it was badly put together [.....] It was patronising to the extreme at times.......

what a waste of an hour, only about 20 minutes of bleeding fragments of the performances interspersed with comments.....

This programme is sheer crass! Where is the music? Just teenage personality profiles in the form of Facebook and MySpace. Was it really necessary to provide several references to one of the players' sexual orientation?...

"This year's final was a disgrace - a debacle that must be denied a repeat performance. [.....} would have been appalled at the desultory treatment dished out to both the musicians and the music itself"

Six hundred and Six ( 606) comments in the same vein at the last count.

Young Folk Award.......nope Young Classical Musician Award.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,TB
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

sorry that was to Mr Oldbugger.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:16 PM

As a matter of clarification, boring old fart is not a rampantly ageist term but one which applies to persons of any age who conform to a particular, entrenched disposition. They look and sound old but are not necessarily so in years.

Caps and fitting spring to mind.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM

For the record, I find the term, 'argumentative old git' more politically correct!

Curmudgeon fits well.

I belong to a Curmudgeon's Club. Dave Burland is our Honorary President.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:40 PM

'slop' was not aimed at the children.

I think it was BBC generally that I'm pissed off with. I've got one of those DAB radios next to my bed (that i won in a radio times competition).

I've got all BBC radio stations tuned into it. And by god do I have to search for something interesting - you know - engaging of the old grey mattter, yet entertaining.

I think I'll chuck it and get a cd player.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:39 PM

"As a matter of clarification, boring old fart is not a rampantly ageist term but one which applies to persons of any age who conform to a particular, entrenched disposition. They look and sound old but are not necessarily so in years."

What a wondeful debating technique you've got there, Diane. When the arguments not going your way, just change the definitions! That, and always claiming the moral high ground, are a winning combination! Have you got any more cunning ploys that I could learn from?

No, let me guess ... just relax and call any contemporary, moderately pleasant noise 'Folk' perhaps ... especially if youthful people make it?


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:14 PM

call any contemporary, moderately pleasant noise 'Folk'

Indeed, some might, in fact, far too many do.

Have you still not got it? This is entirely why I never use the word myself. It's terminally damaged and far too far beyond redemption.
If I mean English trad (with or without techno indie rave, bells, whistles, woodwind or brass), that's what I say. If it's North European with an African drummer and Latin American box player, that doesn't take too long to describe either.
But to lazily call it "f*lk" has half of those "out there" thinking it's Peter Paul & bleedin' Mary or else something naff out of Nashville and the other half thinking it's sodding Enya or the godawful Corrs.

Young people competing for the YFA are tomorrow's leading musicians, striving to express themselves magnificently as true musicians have done down the centuries, harnessing some of what's new and incorporating some of what's gone before. And so it goes on . . .


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Kampervan
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:03 PM

Well,Ms Easby has a forthright and uncompromising way of expressing herself that is sometimes diffcult to appreciate. But I find it difficult to disagree with what she says.

The concept of 'What is Folk' can't be put into a box and defined.
No type of music can. Musical genres do not exist in isolation and we must each make our own judgement as to what we include in our own personal definitions.

Others will be differ, but they are no more right or wrong than we are.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:28 PM

All very true but naked power cuts through the need for cerebration. Folk is what is these numbskulls at the Beeb say it is.

And at the moment they say its this very middle class - well I did say slop in regard to the BBc output and it fits the bill pretty well.

Its not music from our communities.

the problem is that the best songwriter, the best fiddler, the best guitarist in our community have not fitted in - not sufficient slop quotient. the best songwriter is dead. Never got a look in.

I reckon the other two will go the same way.

To be honest its all a bit of a dogs breakfast - this situation. And all this bollocks (sorry dianne - I really really respect you - but fuck me! have you got it wrong on this occasion) about these people are going to be the greatest musicians of their generation - you DO know what is involved in being a great musician/folk artist. it ain't decided by competitions like this.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:32 PM

Eugene Delacroix said it better than me:-

To be a poet at twenty is to be twenty, to still be a poet at forty is to be a poet.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:17 AM

"Why not talk about what you like, and just let stuff you don't enjoy pass without comment?...
Why not be positive and affirming, rather than negative and critical - about any kind of music? Self censorship has nothing to do with free speech, its just good manners not to inflict your dislikes on others, and possibly insult or upset someone....
If you use pejorative terms about something as subjective as music, you only make yourself seem narrow-minded. ....
It's never necessary to be nasty about any kind of art form"

Hope you don't mind the selective quoting here Tom. This is something I feel quite strongly about, and I was tempted to start a whole new thread, because it's about a lot more than these awards. Namely that I think it's totally wrong – and a failure of critical nerve that's very symptomatic of music writing today – that moral language like "nasty" and "pejorative" creeps into the business of assessing music. I note it's never the other way round: commentators are never described as "saintly" or "altruistic" for giving musicians good reviews. And I've never heard a musician vociferously complain about receiving a hyperbolically good review, that they considered overstepped the mark.

I mean, do you think magazines should never give bad reviews? (Because comments on message boards are much closer to online reviews on blogs than they are to pieces on Newsnight – they're opinion, not fact). Mags should just not review things that they think are bad? That would be rubbish. It would suck all the meaning out of a good review, for one thing.

And, if the goal was to spare a musician's feelings, well it would end up having the same effect anyway, cos it would be painfully evident why there was a deafening silence answering their every release. In fact, i would find that far more frustrating than a total drubbing. Believe it or not, there are people out there making music who couldn't give a toss whether a review is good or bad, whether someone likes it or doesn't, they just like being part of the fray...


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM

There is a big difference between a published review, written by a selected 'expert' reviewer, which has been vetted and set in context by an editor who feels a responsibility to his readership and to the music his publication supports, and some knuckle-jerk reaction posted on a website in a red mist.

I don't think i need to go any further, do I?

Tom


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:58 AM

I've read far more damning indictments of albums and performances in fRoots, Songlines, broadsheet inkies, Uncut, Mojo et al than anything I've read on this thread.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:12 AM

There is a big difference between a published review, written by a selected 'expert' reviewer, which has been vetted and set in context by an editor who feels a responsibility to his readership and to the music his publication supports, and some knuckle-jerk reaction posted on a website in a red mist.

I don't think i need to go any further, do I?

Tom


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:22 AM

I see where you're coming from, Tom. The downside is that I'd have to bite my lip eveytime someone mentioned Ray LaMontagne...


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

BBC Radio 2 has launched the 2009 Young Folk Award and is looking for people aged between 15 and 20, performing folk, roots and acoustic music from any culture, to join in the annual UK-wide competition.

It doesn't have to be "folk" as such anyway


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:12 AM

No but they really need to get rid of the spurious description ' folk ' and just celebrate young people making good music.

eric


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM

Absolutely. Yay Megan, go Joe, nice work you young people. Perhaps a bit Radio 2 for my tastes, but well, duh. If R2 stopped calling it folk - with the implication that the award-winner is a particularly excellent representative of the folk genre, age-deprived division - us old farts would get right out of R2's face.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:44 AM

It all comes back to this spurious 'ownership' of one dratted word.

The sub-title "folk, roots and acoustic music from any culture" says it all, but how many of us read that before we reacted?

If ONLY everyone could just take a deep breath and relinquish the word 'folk' to its (now) almost universally accepted meaning - none of this would have happened.

When the enemy is all over your trench, the best tactic is to retreat quickly, and dig in at the trench behind. Not stand on the parapet with a megaphone telling them to jolly-well go away.

The trench behind is called 'Traditional' - and the Grammy list alerts us to the fact that they're pouring into that now.

Cmon guys - how hard can it be?

Tom


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Girl Friday
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

I was not going to comment before listening to the programme, and have just done so. "folk, roots and acoustic music from any culture" appeared on the website and on the application form. However, I only remember performers of traditional folk music winning in the past.
I was at the semi-finals and, amongst the six that didn't get through were two piano playing, female songwriters, a bagpiper, and a blues guitarist/singer. If I were to predict the winner, it would have been Lucy Ward, Maz O'Connor, or Tide. Megan and Joe are a total departure and are probably more Radio 2 than Folk. If I were to pidgeonhole them it would have to be jazz.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 07:50 AM

Err - 'more Radio 2 than folk'? 'Radio 2' is surely an even wider category than 'folk' - it must mean anything played on Radio 2 - which for sure includes fork and even a little bit of trad (as well as lots of jazz etc).

Why do you reject the 'acoustic' part of the definition? Does acoustic guitar and acoustic saxophone not qualify?


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM

"fork" - hello Uncle Sigmund. Didn't see you there.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Girl Friday
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 08:13 AM

Sorry Tom.. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. Trouble is with posting to threads is that you write your thoughts down and probably don't articulate them. I should have written more suited to Radio 2. When perusing the list of judges for the final, there seemed to be a lack of musicians on the panel, unlike the semis.Where did I say I rejected the accoustic part of the definition? Rarely have I heard amplified jazz. I was just giving my oppinion, and have no desire to get into a row about it.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM

Coming back to this "discussion" after a few days, having seen it referenced on two or three other boards with general disgust expressed, I'd like to congratulate Jim Moray for his extraordinarily brave posting some way back detailing just what effect this kind of thing can have on young performers starting out.

However, I was equally unimpressed by the condescending people who seem to delight in referring to 20 year olds as "children". The median age for this competition is the legal age of adulthood, and all of the competitors, as far as I can see, conducted themselves with a damn sight more adult poise than many of the obviously older correspondents here (not just in this thread). You should be ashamed of yourselves, especially in the light of Jim Moray's honesty.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 10:30 AM

I really don't see that much criticsm of the performers here.....just an exploration of whether they play folk music or not. I also see criticism of the title/ organisation of the competition (from all sides)and one or two posts expressing frustration that the same opportunities that the competition provides were/are not available to other (older) performers.

I think some people are looking for reasons to get indignant on behalf of the performers without really reading what those who are questionning the organisation of the competition (NOT THE PERFORMERS) are saying.

Paul


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 11:04 AM

Folknacious congratulates Jim Moray on his "extraordinarily brave posting" and "honesty". Now, as anyone around here knows, I am a great admirer of Jim Moray's music. But I am not sure what degree of courage is necessary to post the opinions he has here? Will he be arrested and imprisoned and have his fingernails piulled out by the folk police? And "honesty"????He expressed his fairly normal and unexceptionable opinions here. I imagine they actually are his opinions, so presumably he was being honest. Do we give him a medal or something?
Folknacious, there are places in the world where the expression of your opinions may make you suffer. I don't think this is one of them.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Mr Oldbugger
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 11:07 AM

"Coming back to this "discussion" after a few days, having seen it referenced on two or three other boards with general disgust expressed"

yes, there are some very smug supporters of this competition
attempting to 'demonise' this thread on other forums.

When I was the same age as these very proficient
and talented young performers
I would have certainly been highly suspicious
and wary of the 'support'
of such wet patronising older generation 'know-it-alls'

Its almost funny when viewed in context of the rather poor
but quite apropriate new sit com
currently running on BBC1

"Parents of the Band"

When I was the same age as these 'kids'
the last thing me and my mates in our Band wanted
was the 'patronage' of such namby pamby middle clas wankers.

What we truly respected was the honest advice and hard but constructive critcism
of authentic rough gnarly old rockers and roadies
we encountered in studios and at gigs.

god bless 'em if any are still alive now to suffer the stultifying sounds of 21'st century corporate MOR..


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 11:23 AM

Folknacious: Some of the contestants are legally children, and I used the word deliberately to remind people who were not making the necessary allowances (as did Jim).

Greg: Please read Jim's post again. It was commendable in the circumstances, and if you can't see why then I suspect you're fortunate in never having been on the receiving end.

Paul: There has been direct and unfair criticism of performers, some intentional some merely by association or lack of clear writing. The debate about qualification is itself unhelpful and was bound to deliver collateral damage. All of the contestants clearly fall within the stated criteria for the competition, and we're not making ourselves look clever by challenging that.

Tom


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM

All of the contestants clearly fall within the stated criteria for the competition

The trouble is, it's difficult to see who wouldn't. Arctic Monkeys, Nirvana, Oasis - they've all done "folk, traditional or acoustic music".


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

Every producer and promoter working within a specific genre has to decide where he or she will draw the line. There are no hard or fast rules - when you pay the piper you can call the tune.

Why some people view skill and talent as some kind of threat defeats me.

For me the key word in the competition title is 'Young.'

Embrace that, and just relax about the rest, and suddenly this is a very worthwhile.

Maybe we need more from the BBC - including, why not, a Young Tradition contest (plus of course much more from the 'adult' awards) but attacking this one for not being folk, or being too MOR, is unlikely to achieve that.

Tom


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Girl Friday sans cookie
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:31 PM

I am sure that this was originally "The Young Traditon Award" which is why previous winners have been more traditional performers. The brief has been widened to include a greater range of genres.Is the outcome therefore, that surprising?


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: melodeonboy
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM

Yes, Tom, a two-pronged approach, e.g. a Young Musicians' Award and a Young Tradition Award, would certainly make me (and, I suspect, many others) feel more comfortable.

I do, however, feel that grumbling and griping about the silly situation that pertains at present, rather than shutting our gobs and pretending we're happy with it, may make a few waves and would make desired change more, rather than less, likely.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 02:07 PM

TOm Bliss: you suggest I was attacking Jim Moray in some way. Please don't be silly.Read what I saidd. I agreed with his comment wholeheartedly.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 02:25 PM

Greg, you praised his music, but seemed to be devaluing the main point he made - about the pain that victims of cyber-bullying and web-hazing do suffer, while also dismissing the courage he showed in risking more of the same, in defence of others.

Melodeonboy: I'm entirely in favour of vociferous lobbying for improvement (and not just re awards) - why else is my neck on the block re the Grown-Up Gongs? I merely believe it's best tackled by starting with an understanding of the status quo then offering a reasoned argument for change, while avoiding insult and hurt.

Tom


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM

This is all very similar to the big fight being waged in another part of the web by the people who want folk to be banned from the BBC world music album awards because Jim Moray won this year. The principle appears to be to change the rules until you get the result you personally want. Why does this remind me of Zimbabwe?


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:56 PM

Tom: There are no hard or fast rules - when you pay the piper you can call the tune.

Me, a couple of days ago: we seem to be getting into a position where it's actually impossible to say that an entry to a folk award or an act on a festival stage isn't folk - because it's acceptance by a folk promoter that defines something as folk

OK, judges and organisers are always liable to make decisions that rile the faithful, whatever the genre is. The question I'm concerned about is whether the faithful have any right to push back, or whether they (in this case we) have some sort of duty to accept the judges' verdict and keep shtum.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 06:03 PM

"This is all very similar to the big fight being waged in another part of the web by the people who want folk to be banned from the BBC world music album awards" Sounds alarming. Who are these people exactly, and where are they fighting? And is it really like dying of cholera or police brutality in Zimbabwe? Somehow, I doubt it. Sounds like the usual argument over the meaning of folk, or possibly the meaning of woreld music.


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 06:25 PM

Pip said to Tom: "The question I'm concerned about is whether the faithful have any right to push back, or whether they (in this case we) have some sort of duty to accept the judges' verdict and keep shtum"

Tom said to Melodeonboy "I'm entirely in favour of vociferous lobbying for improvement (and not just re awards) - why else is my neck on the block re the Grown-Up Gongs? I merely believe it's best tackled by starting with an understanding of the status quo then offering a reasoned argument for change, while avoiding insult and hurt."

Will that do for you as well do you think Pip?


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 09:35 PM

I did not intend to return to the subject of Jim Moray's courageous post some miles above because I suspect he would now like to place the way he was treated on this forum behind him. I cannot, however, let Greg Stephens' feigned innocence pass, because he was among the baying pack half a dozen years ago castigating Mr Moray on the grounds, apparently, that some lazy subeditor had dubbed him "the new face of folk" because the words fit the headline space that was available. Not that this was by any means the worst that was said in that now notorious thread . . .

This was my own first posting on Mudcat (not, I regret to say, under my own name though I have long since reverted to it). That blinkered, baying pack still dislikes me (to say the least) for speaking out in support of Sweet England, a CD which was Jim Moray's finals project at Birmingham Conservatoire and set him on the road towards the acclaim and respect he now rightly has.

The YFA has been going for ten years now and on more occasions than not, the declared "winner" wasn't the majority choice among interval bar pundits. Some of you are calling for a return to the Young Tradition Award of the Jim Lloyd days but this seems to me to be far too narrow for the fantastically wide spectrum of music young people are engaged in today. Furthermore (and besides) it fails to fit the R2 remit in which the Award as it is today must operate, because it is where we are now.

This year's YFA winners put in the best performance on the night. There might have been some there who disagreed but I wasn't aware of them. When Jim Moray didn't win (and when Bella Hardy, Jackie Oates and Dave Delarre didn't either), vast swathes of people were mystified. It's my belief (and not just mine) that Smoothops have got it just a little bit more right this time, just as they seem to have done with the grown-up Folk Awards nominations.

I'm just back from listening to Dave Swarbrick play and I'm wondering what the "but is it folk?" brigade would have thought of the bewildering variety of music this great musician produced. I watched him move up and down his violin fingerboard as rapidly as a classical guitarist spans the frets, producing a bewildering stream of material from the 17th century to now. Are you going to tell him he's "not f*lk"?


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Marje
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 11:26 AM

I've just got round to listening to the finalists, and to reading to the end of this thread.

I listened with an open mind, but my reaction to the winning duo was a bewildered, "Why are they in this competition? That's not folk."

This is no slur on their abilities as song-writers or performers - all the finalists were of a very high standard - but it seems to me that the choice of a winner was unfair on the other entrants, who, by and large, presented material which had some links with tradition and their roots. The winning song was not a folk performance in the sense that most people in the UK understand the term (and the list quoted by Tom Bliss above relates to the US folk scene). It had little to do with the "roots" (to quote another word from the competition title) of the performers. Only the third word, "acoustic" could be applied to it, and this (see other thread somewhere) is the vaguest term of the lot. Many other singer-songwriters who perform songs of this kind wouldn't have considered entering for a "folk, roots and acoustic" award, as two of the three terms are irrelevant to this type of music.

I was disappointed when the BBC, some years back, changed the title from "Young Tradition" to "Young Folk" - I guessed that before long, the traditional aspects of "folk" would become marginalised, and our roots forgotten.

Yes, ideally we'd like to see two awards, say "Young Tradition" as well as "Young Singer-Songwriter" or "Young Acoustic Performer". Until this happens (and I think hell may well freeze over before it does)I'll be saddened if the likes of Jackie Oates and Maz O'Connor don't get the recognition they deserve because the BBC and the judges don't appear to value folk and traditional music.

Marje


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM

Diane Easeby: the last thing I would claim to be is consistent; along with Walt Whitman my head contains multitudes. But I should be very very surprised if I was ever in a baying pack attacking Jim Moray, even six years ago. AS far as I can recall, I have always found young Jim refreshing, innovative, and even on occasion downright enjoyable.However, who knows what I said six years ago: well, Ms Easeby evidently so. So, Diane, find the quote of me castigating poor Jim and I'll happily buy you a pint. Got to be proper castigating, mind, not just saying "this CD isn't quite as good as the last one" or"I've heard better recordings of Early One Morning".


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 11:48 AM

Actually, I couldn't wait for Ms Easeby to look it up. Here is what I actually said(in 2003):
"Jim Moray is a musician. He makes music. Like it, or dont like it. Dont lets confuse the publicity with the guy himself. There's no point in trying to tell us that what he's doing is a bad thing; and even less point in trying to tell people how stupid or out of touch they are if they dont like it.
   Each age has people who use folk material and dress it up in contemporary clothes. We've seen the Percy Graingers and Vaughan Williams shoving it into a classical orchestral concer, Martin carthy as 60's guitar hero, Fairport Convention as soft rock, Spinners as MOR entertainment. Jim Moray is having a play about with computers, as are many other people.Fair play to them. The music's out there to play with. Enjoy yourselves. Time will sort the wheat from the chaff."

That is not, repeat not, castigating Jim Moray. That is supporting him against attacks from others. Got that, Diane??


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Subject: RE: 2008 R2 Young Folk Award - What Happened
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 11:52 AM

200


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