The Recession and Folk Clubs.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 05:33 AM

You've got a point there, Tim. I have run across this when looking for gigs. There are a number of places managing to find bands and solo artists who are willing to play for silly money, and the worst of that is that some of those gigs are well attended.

I think it would never work in the folk scene because there seems to be a feeling that cheap acts are poor quality acts (possibly true). The reason it happens in pubs is the fact that the patrons don't know what the band is charging, and without the clue of an admission fee, it becomes a "suck it and see situation".

Certainly, I have never offered local acts a fee below the local going rate, nor booked an act without hearing what they do first. I view with suspicion anyone prepared to price cut to that extent.

Don T.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:07 PM

Seems that the cursed market forces are the stumbling block to a lot of clubs and venues.
Another is that there are so many people tallented enough to play a reasonable set down the pub(well I stand to be corrected by those who know).
The artiste is probably local,gets a crowd of his mates to turn up,maybe doesnt need to earn his living doing this and the audience is getting a free show.
I heard a local singer of the louder electrified type of music recently lamenting that idiots were playing in the local pubs for £40-£60.
I dunno if that is cheap or not,but luggin all the PA etc,petrol,and other stuff must mean you need to be local to do that.
I think he was talking 3 or 4 peice cover band type things.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:01 PM

Thank you Dick. I remember those many nights with considerable pleasure, as I do the bookings of many other fine, outstanding, performers.

As the organiser of a number of clubs, over the years, my SINGLE regret is the fact that market limits prevented my booking many others whose fees WERE beyond what I was able to manage.

DonT.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM

Yes,I played Don Ts clubs many times ,he always paid my fee,I always had a good night .
Don T,is a sound man .http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:31 PM

I appreciate Don's experience and I doubt there is anyone in this music who hasn't paid out in one way or another and like Don dleighted to have done so.

But I went to a gig a week last Friday with around 600 people at £15.00.

Hard core English music and in a student's union. It was Bellowhead of course. And damn good luck to them.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:22 PM

""One of them said that he'd be a rich man if he had a pound for every time he'd been told "We have to charge £x at the door because people round here won't pay any more than that".""


Perhaps I don't know much about running folk clubs, having only been a performer and organiser for 47 years, but has it ever occurred to those who pontificate about pricing from the lofty heights of their "business model" based on affluent suburban areas, that those who say their club will not survive high pricing might actually know what they are talking about FROM BITTER AND OFTEN SALUTORY EXPERIENCE?

In the whole of my time organising folk clubs I have always charged the maximum that the local market would bear, and over many years I have found out what that limit was by overstepping and having to supplement agreed fees from my own pocket, followed by a rapid reduction to a proper balance for the area and the venue.

Having said that, every guest I ever booked left the venue with the fee he/she asked for, or such lesser fee as he/she had been willing to negotiate. Never did I ask a prospective guest to accept a reduction, preferring to simply state "I am very sorry but we cannot afford your fee". Only those who volunteered a reduction were booked, and any who asked for a percentage deal got one, usually 100% of the door, with the club keeping the proceeds of the raffle.

My qualification to have an opinion on this?

47 years during which I have run purely singers clubs, singers clubs with periodic guests, and a purely concert club which ran every Saturday from June 1976 to August 1983, with a guest EVERY week.

Artists like Martin Carthy, Jake Thackray, Eddy Walker, Del Brimstone, and many , many more.

My "earnings" from this?.......Well I made a lot of friends, and can still call on some big names when I need to, but I estimate that I have paid out upwards of £10,000 of my own money in that time, and Goddam happy to do so. It's been a blast!

Don T.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:44 PM

We keep our door price to as low as we can Tim. We have ups and downs, but tend to break even or make a small profit.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: GUEST,howlinwolf
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM

If you are wonderin where your next bit of cash is gonna come from try uploading your music to
www.thelisteningzone.com , you will be amongst people like johnny winters and the like. Let us know at this forum, you never know, we might even buy a track or two. They give 70% of the sale to the artist!

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

ooops sorry.
I dunno what Villan pays,but we went to see Vin Garbut and Pete Coe,at his club, fairly recently.
Seemed to be a good turn out to me.
Could the middle ground for those performers less swamped with meeja hype, be as support to the mega stars?
I think there could be a lot of deffinitions re Clubs,customers,performers and their resaons and agenda for being at any venue at any given time.
Maybe you are not really comparing like with like,enough?
In most of the Grimsby music venues there are lots of wanna be's whoare not very deffinate what it is they wanna be if you venture to ask them.
Mostly they say they just love music ,performing etc.
and they all tend to flock together to see each other all the time too.
Maybe that is why they get bookings,built in audience potential?

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

Quote BWM
They must be very short songs, and not much between-songs patter either. 10 songs and talk would be more likely to take up an hour, in my experience
End of quote

Agreed there. I would generally expect about 15 to 18 songs in 2 x 45 minutes.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 12:05 PM

"10 songs and talk can take up 30 mins."
No COmment MR BWM
Five or six, with not much chattering is easily a half hour.
Though if daft enough to let me do that many it will seeeem much much longer for us all.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:01 PM

Too many posts to go through at one a m so if this has been said before...? The clubs that are going to suffer are those charging over £8.00 to see a guest. I'd set this lower if it weren't for the phenomenal attendance every time I've been to Dartford. Don't think they'll lose out, but other clubs with smaller audiences who charge higher admission will be most likely to suffer. I'm keep ing Friday Folk's down to £4.00/£5.00 on guest nights, and free on singers nights with a collection.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 12:02 PM

KFFC did very well at the Winter Warmer Weekend last weekend..... mix of singaround & booked acts. Kept prices low..... £20 for the weekend, which represented excellent value given the calibre of the acts we had on.

We are in North Yorks and had people from as far away as Brighton, Suffolk and London.

Paul

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 02:06 PM

Nearly all the venues we've been to this month have been packed out -these have all been singaround type nights.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM

A couple of months on from this thread being created... how are things now?

Over Christmas and during te cold spell many people were staying away - now things locally are almost back to pre recession levels of support. Indeed one of our local singaround nights had two really brilliant weeks in a row during February.

So who'se got some encouraging stories to add now we're into 'normal' 2009?

Ian Fyvie

PS Tempted to revisit some other themes from December in this thread - but I'm an optimist!

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: LesB
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:54 AM

Chas, no insult intended but I did say 'big artists', In particular I had in mind when Dick Gaughan played our club somebody kept count & he sang 7 songs in 2 45min sets. Also the comment was meant light heartedly.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Fidjit
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:36 AM

From: LesB - PM
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:05 PM

Chas if it's £10 per song I can see a few big name artists that would starve.
Cheers

Yes Les I'm starving.

Just did some sums on the back of an old envelope of what I lay out per year to keep me up to scratch.

Diverse membership fees to music associations £130
Guitar strings                               £160
Pr promotion (brochures, posters and flyer's) £132
Workshop attendance (to keep abreast)         £ 35
Telephone                                     £ 45
Transport (to suss out possible gig)          £ 45
                                              -----
                                              £547

At £100 a gig the first 5&1/2 are for free.
I actually ask for more than that.
As I now only do about one paid gig a month, well.
Sod the recession my fees are going up

Chas

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:43 PM

The 1930's Depression in America spawned many groups of jazz, swing and folk music
performers. The Left-Wing music of the 40's were a result of the development of folk music performers such as Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Leadbelly, the Weavers, Josh White Richard Dyer-Bennet and Big Bill Broonzy. It may be that the Recession will be a good thing for the arts. People will look judiciously for music that moves them rather than is sold to them
like gas-guzzling cars.

Recession and folk clubs? Could be good for the clubs.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Indrani Ananda
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:23 PM

Bad singers majoring on yet another thread?

Could be that (100% accurate Snail!) they are the standard scapegoat for other things seriously wrong with certain clubs, for example, a domineering clique at the helm.


Indrani

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 08:58 AM

I had a sudden moment of blinding clarity. My last word on this before I take the vow of partial silence and join IB's new cult: one person's crap floor singer is another person's godlike genius! The magic folk singer! All things to all people! Kumbaya, my brethen! Happy yule! All problems solved! Now and ever more!

Oh. Okay then...

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:21 AM

OK, Hamish, that's one incident in a club "which is usually great fun" which you occasionally get to and was considered so unusual as to be worth an apology from the organiser. Did the club close as a result?

What about the clubs you get to regularly? How commonplace is this experience?

Any more from anyone? I'll keep a list.

I must admit that the "A Knapsac on my back" incident strikes me as bizarre. You don't say whether it was sung well or badly. Will people believe that, in going on forty years in folk clubs, I have never known this to happen.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Hamish
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:38 AM

A certain club - which is usually great fun when I can occasionally get to it - which I went to recently was so off the pace that the organiser apologised to me afterwards. "Too many bad singers" was the observation. Does that constitute "significant numbers of poor floor singers", Snail?

Although I love the place, if it had been my first visit I doubt I'd be hurrying back.

Now I think of it, at the same club, three or four years ago... I'd cajoled a bunch of folks from the main bar to come and try it out. They arrived when a very dodgy rendition of "A Knapsac on my back" (fer goodness' sake) was going on. I can still remember them standing dumbstruck in the doorway. They didn't even wait for a second song. Bad timing, but four potential converts gone. Forever, probably.

It's hard (otherwise opinion wouldn't be so divided as this thread has shown) but to encourage the not-so-goods has to be balanced against driving away the not-so-sures.

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:00 PM

John Routledge

I note that you believe nothing anyone else says in this matter.

Sorry about the quick and flippant earlier post but I was just off to a band practice and then on to see the excellent Twagger Band at Seaford Folk Club.

What is there to believe or disbelieve? Nobody has produced any actual examples of the existence of significant numbers of poor floor singers. They just make sweeping generalised statements with no apparent basis in the real world. Either that or they take what other people have said on Mudcat as evidence.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Aeola
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:50 PM

TwickFolk;-- Good man, merry xmas!

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: evansakes
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:39 AM

John Routledge, well said. You took the words right out of my mouth in fact.

Aeoloa said "Maybe that's my problem, I don't go to watch the audience!"

I'm as transfixed as anyone when there's someone onstage exhibiting true artistry. In fact the building could be burning down and I doubt I'd notice. Sad to say, try as I may (and I do) I'm unable to fake it when confronted with abject mediocrity. At times like these (if I can stand to stay in the room) I observe the reactions of others around me. It's a failing I admit and I WILL try to be more enthusiastic and attentive if ever I happen to be in the vicinity of another dire floor spotter. Promise.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM

Correct John. I don't believe that the bloke who sings about the Norfolk reed cutter really exists.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:46 AM

Snail - your cause is not helped by describing as "sad cynics" those who who have genuine concerns about the standard of some habitual singers.

I note that you believe nothing anyone else says in this matter. Why should anyone believe you

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:32 AM

TwickFolk

I didn't think I was providing evidence on oath in a court of law here.

Well if your going to make sweeping statements about what's wrong with folk clubs I think you need a bit more to go on than what a few sad cynics say on Mudcat. Now you are asking me to use my experience to justify your claims. Sorry but I do go to other folk clubs and I don't see what you describe. Audience numbers are not always what we would like them to be but I see no evidence that this is due to the occasional poor floor singer. I think they are being used as a scapegoat.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Aeola
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:21 AM

Hmm1 Maybe that's my problem, I don't go to watch the audience!

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: evansakes
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:28 AM

I didn't think I was providing evidence on oath in a court of law here. You don't need empirical evidence that audiences are being aliienated. You can see it with your own eyes.

Go to a folk club other than your own once in a while, stand at the back and observe the audience's behaviour when the first dodgy performer cranks into gear. Listen politely while they tell you their life story before they begin to sing (yes...overlong introductions by floorspotters are almost as bad as mediocre performance in my book).

See how quickly many disappear to the bar/pop to the loo. I've done it myself many times (and seen plenty of others do the same). By all means gaze out of the window and admire all the lovely roses in your garden and applaud uproariouslly as the floorspotter finally leaves the stage. The regulars will of course join you in this exercise and dutifully keep coming back again for more of the same (especially if they're performers in their own right).

But it's not them you should be watching. Look out for the strangers who come for the first time, slip quietly out and never return.

THAT'S where the problem lies.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Betsy
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:21 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7790161.stm

This how diverse the crunch will become - hopefully it won't affect us simple folkies.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Aeola
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:28 PM

re- but in many other places audiences are clearly being alienated ..........................' I agree with The Snail! Where is all this evidence? I do visit a number of different clubs in the area and they are all doing ok. They do have ups and downs however but generally no problems. There does seem to be a lot of emphasis on clubs being true to the artist etc,. but, I'm sure you would agree that the customer is always right!!If your product is ok then you will sell it, provided the price is right. A paid performer must do his sums and decide what his minimum fee/rate should be and if work doesn't come his way then maybe he should take stock and look at his publicity plan. The recession will have different effects on all aspects of life, some good some not so good but at the end of day people will look for reasonable entertainment.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:16 PM

Well I am pleased that we have 71 attending Faldingworth live on Saturday (probably a very diificult night considering its the last Saturday before Xmas) to see Steve Tilston. Got 19 tickets left, but will be happy with 71 :-)
It hasn't hit yet at the backwoods of Faldingworth, Lincolnshire.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM

"and that is not easy from N. Yorks I agree. "

The A1 helps though..........and we've got trains and everything!

Sorry Dave, I hadn't realised we were at war!


"Having been in that position - I reckon with a club you generally only book the people you like" . I agree with that, it is always the starting point.


"But in many other places audiences are clearly being alienated by mediocre and amareurish performances....and that bothers me."

I agree with this staement wholeheartedly.......in the early days I put someone on out of sentiment (in my heart of hearts knowing they weren't good enough) and had complaints from quite a lot of the audience.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:03 PM

Thanks, TwickFolk but having spent a lot of time being told our policy is crass and that we are guilty of promoting crap standards and dumbing down, I'm a bit sensitve to these things.

Going back a bit -

Obviously a magic potion exists for improving weak performers on a big stage to the point where their contributions become listenable to the majority of the audience...have you ever thought about marketing it and selling it to other clubs?

There's nothing magic about it. It just involves treating people with respect and giving them encouragement. As you said "The strange thing is that over a period of time the good ones get better (as they observe people who are even better still).. So will the not so good if you put them in an environment where people obviously care about the quality of what they do rather than saying "Go away, you're rubbish."

Judging by the comments on that thread from disgruntled visitors to various clubs, you might even find you're onto a winner....

Yes, I think we are.

From other discussions elsewhere on Mudcat...

from all the usual suspects including several of the "I haven't been to a folk club for years because I know they're rubbish" brigade. Like Greg, I have my doubts about the authenticity of Faye Roche.

But in many other places audiences are clearly being alienated by mediocre and amareurish performances....and that bothers me.

Really? What real world evidence do you have for that? I wouldn't recommend basing your policy on what you read in Mudcat.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: evansakes
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:29 PM

I didn't mean to offend and sorry if you took my light-hearted remark as an insult..

For the record I care passionately about this music, many of the artists that perform it and also the venues where it's played. I despair when venues put on great artists and few people turn up.

I'm as interested as anyone why this is and trying to be constructive in working on solutions.

From other discussions elsewhere on Mudcat it seems clear that one of the main reasons why a lot of people are put off from going to see folk music in 'clubs' is because of the poor standard of floor singing on guest nights. At Twickenham we've put quite a bit of thought into trying to devise ways that people who come for the first time will want to come back again and again and maybe bring others too. One thing quickly became clear....you have to assert some quality control somewhere along the line. Your particular club may be one of those where quality control is not needed. If that's the case, bravo. But in many other places audiences are clearly being alienated by mediocre and amareurish performances....and that bothers me. That's all.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:19 PM

when I come to the uk,to play, Ibook my rail tickets in advance by credit card,that way Ican travel cheaper.
In my experience the best floor singers are the ones who will be happy to pay out good money to see the top professionals perform in folk clubs. The average/dodgy floor singers are the ones who go missing on guest nights.[quote twick folk]
spot on,my friend,and if every professional did one floor spot a month,the whole standard of floor singing would soon pick up.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM

Oh bother.

This was being a useful thread.

Bye!

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:45 PM

I haven't insulted your club, Twickfolk. Please have the courtesy not to insult The Lewes Arms Folk Club (soon to be some selection from The Lewes Saturday Elephant and Castle Folk Music and Song Club).

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:35 PM

In peace....

seem more outward looking and prepared to trust their own judgement on who to book..... rather than just the tried and tested.

I am not sure of the difference.

Having been in that position - I reckon with a club you generally only book the people you like. What is necessary and I think this is where some people fall down is as an organiser you really do need to get around the festivals, sessions, and other clubs, and that is not easy from N. Yorks I agree.

You also need to talk to loads of people - and that makes a huge difference - find someone whose opinion you can trust and go along with them when it comes to people of whom you have only heard a demo. Ask an artist who send a demo where they can be seen and make an effort to get there.

When you book an artist, quiz them, see who they have seen recently and who they think is up and coming. They are generally very accurate within their own field. Ask them to be honest. Keep their opinions confidential at all times.

As an artist - do the opposite of all these!!







When you get to the bigger festivals there is a case for widening your own taste to that of what you think the audience might like. I did it once and spent the next four months sweating I had got it right.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: evansakes
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:30 PM

Snail said "Since we wouldn't dream of telling anyone they weren't good enough to do a floor spot on a guest night we don't see this. In fact, I've noticed that on a guest night the weaker performers really seem to rise to the occasion and can astonish you"

I was confused for a minute....thought I was on the "Why folk club's are dying" thread.

Obviously a magic potion exists for improving weak performers on a big stage to the point where their contributions become listenable to the majority of the audience...have you ever thought about marketing it and selling it to other clubs? Judging by the comments on that thread from disgruntled visitors to various clubs, you might even find you're onto a winner....

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:09 PM

Hi Betsy - yes the fuel price was the final nail which made me make my decision.

Now, ironically things are better re fuel (and actually my own audiences have been the best ever this autumn too - though not as reliable as I need) and if it does turn out that clubs gain because they are cheaper than other types of entertainment through the recession that'll be wonderful.

I did think about rescinding my decision, but these things don't change the ratio of performers to gigs, or the average fee. I need 100+ club gigs a year to survive. That means playing half the mid-range clubs in the land every year (can't do the big ones as they won't have me, and the small ones don't have anyone), or all of them biennially. I've survived so far with on kind of Ponzi scam, but I've run out of first times. I'm fortunate that most clubs do seem to want me back, but very few want me that often because there are so many excellent acts around.

The recession may deliver swings and roundabouts which may hasten or delay the long term trend, but it wont change the final outcome. Only a concerted (concert-ed?) and unified effort can do that.

Tom


.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:36 AM

My feeling is that big festivals will feel the pinch, particularly the ones with aspirations eg fast, aggressive growth. Small festivals will spring-up and probably more of them that recently, but they will not all survive, much as before.

Folk Clubs may verywell see stasis or growth. Nearby and cheap (relatively) should get those that are reigning-in their spending. But I fear there will be a shift to the London effect.
As they sit there saying "entertain me".

Sessions and singers clubs - it rather depends on "the pub" surviving (as we know it).

But hey - if I really knew I would not be telling you - I would be betting on the cert.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Betsy
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:25 AM

This thread is mostly about Pricing and performers.The recession is starting but is nowhere near being in full swing.Let's raise this discussion at Easter and see if we're coming from the same angle.
It's a conundrum, but it will get very messy a month after Christmas - when the credit cards need paying and the job losses start to mount. The equation keeps changing - a few months ago Tom Bliss and others were (quite rightly) on another thread bemoaning the price of car fuel for performer and audience . THAT element has suddenly taken a change for the better and long may it last, but,it forms part of the aforementioned equation. Sorry to be so gloomy but "There may be troubles ahead , but while there's music etc etc......."

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:20 AM

"10 songs and talk can take up 30 mins."

They must be very short songs, and not much between-songs patter either. 10 songs and talk would be more likely to take up an hour, in my experience, which halves the hourly rate you'd be paying the artiste. Not a good deal.

Villan's right, it's a three-way deal - organiser/promoter, artiste and audience - all want a fair slice of the cake and the trick's in finding the best compromise to mutually benefit all three sides. It's taken several years of trial and error at Faldingworth (and experience gained during its earlier incarnations in Market Rasen and Walesby, I'd guess), but it's evolved into a Great Deal for all concerned - everyone's a happy bunny.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:30 AM

TwickFolk

The strange thing is that over a period of time the good ones get better (as they observe people who are even better still). The bad ones who's pride and ego have ben bruised and therefore gone missing on guest nights tend to get worse.

As I said....funny that isn't it.

Ah, that explains it. Since we wouldn't dream of telling anyone they weren't good enough to do a floor spot on a guest night we don't see this. In fact, I've noticed that on a guest night the weaker performers really seem to rise to the occasion and can astonish you.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:56 AM

Folkiedave,

Yes, I probably should have said that I agree with your other points.

However I wanted to make the point that our experience is that the Scottish clubs (on the whole) seem more outward looking and prepared to trust their own judgement on who to book..... rather than just the tried and tested.

This may well also be supporting the development of talent in Scotland...... i.e. giving newer acts somewhere to hone their talent.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:38 AM

I reckon around 40+.

They range from concert clubs to sing arounds and everything in between. They range from seven nights per week to once a month. They range from posh hotels to the most unreconstructed scottish pub I have ever been in.

But I suspect you missed the main point of what I said. It comes after there.

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:11 AM

"Look at the bands and talent coming out of Scotland. There aren't many folk clubs in Scotland "

Dave, intersting that you don't think there are many folk clubs in Scotland........ we seem to be finding plenty. ....and they seem more likely to book relative newcomers (I'm talking about my other half of course!) and the fees they are prepared to offer are also better. I don't know yet if they are better attended.

Maybe this also contributes to the depth of talent coming out of Scotland?

Paul

Subject: RE: The Recession and Folk Clubs.
From: evansakes
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:44 AM

The Snail....

Yes, they don't go....UNLESS of course they're given the opportunity to play/sing (which at our place they're not likely to).

My point was that in general the floor singers who exhibit the greatest talent will attend REGARDLESS of whether they get that opportunity. The difference is that these folks tend not to have chips on their shoulders nor deluded views of their own abilities.

The strange thing is that over a period of time the good ones get better (as they observe people who are even better still). The bad ones who's pride and ego have ben bruised and therefore gone missing on guest nights tend to get worse.

As I said....funny that isn't it.