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another first - F#

GUEST,leeneia 17 Dec 08 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,giles earle 17 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM
Jack Campin 17 Dec 08 - 11:54 AM
Will Fly 17 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM
G-Force 17 Dec 08 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Dec 08 - 08:43 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 08 - 09:14 PM
Leadfingers 17 Dec 08 - 10:20 PM
PoppaGator 18 Dec 08 - 10:35 AM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Dec 08 - 10:39 AM
JohnB 18 Dec 08 - 10:48 AM
Mr Happy 18 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM
Piers Plowman 18 Dec 08 - 11:40 AM
Piers Plowman 18 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM
Murray MacLeod 18 Dec 08 - 11:45 AM
Murray MacLeod 18 Dec 08 - 11:51 AM
Piers Plowman 18 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM
Piers Plowman 18 Dec 08 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,arran 18 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM
Piers Plowman 19 Dec 08 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,leeneia 19 Dec 08 - 09:56 AM
Stonebridge 19 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM
Marje 20 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,leeneia 20 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM
Marje 21 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 08 - 04:23 PM
Tootler 21 Dec 08 - 05:08 PM
Tootler 21 Dec 08 - 05:15 PM
Murray MacLeod 21 Dec 08 - 06:48 PM
Piers Plowman 22 Dec 08 - 04:20 AM
Don Firth 22 Dec 08 - 04:04 PM
Stonebridge 22 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM
Don Firth 22 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM
JohnInKansas 22 Dec 08 - 05:02 PM
Don Firth 22 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM
Piers Plowman 23 Dec 08 - 03:42 AM
Piers Plowman 23 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM
JohnInKansas 23 Dec 08 - 04:59 AM
Nick 23 Dec 08 - 05:00 AM
Nick 23 Dec 08 - 06:04 AM
Piers Plowman 23 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM
Piers Plowman 23 Dec 08 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,leeneia 23 Dec 08 - 10:40 AM
Nick 23 Dec 08 - 10:52 AM
Murray MacLeod 23 Dec 08 - 05:52 PM
Nick 23 Dec 08 - 06:19 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM
Nick 23 Dec 08 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,leeneia 23 Dec 08 - 07:07 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 08 - 07:17 PM
Nick 23 Dec 08 - 08:23 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 08 - 08:39 PM
Nick 23 Dec 08 - 08:59 PM
Stonebridge 24 Dec 08 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,leeneia 24 Dec 08 - 11:30 AM
Don Firth 24 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM
Tootler 24 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM
Nick 24 Dec 08 - 07:49 PM
Nick 24 Dec 08 - 07:57 PM
Don Firth 24 Dec 08 - 10:38 PM
Tootler 25 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM
Piers Plowman 28 Dec 08 - 05:23 AM
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Subject: my first
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:09 AM

I have been arranging Christmas music to play with friends. (Our group is growing, and we need more parts.)

One good source for MIDI's is the CyberHymnal. I downloaded 'How Great My Joy,' which I happen to know as 'While By My Sheep.' This seems to be a very old song.

One problem with MIDI's made by organists is that organists seem to need to show everybody that they went to college. They can't just play a tune and include normal chords. No, they have to throw in walking alto parts or discordant notes to show how intellectual they are. Trouble is, notes which sound fine with a big church and a husky instrument sound awful in a small living room on a crisp instrument.

I spend a lot of time identifying and removing such notes.

(Another thing I do is put the song in a guitar-friendly key, such as D,G, Am or Em. In this case, I put the song in D. )

So when 'How great my joy' had A#'s in the bass, I thought they were extraneous notes. Then I spent time at the keyboard and realized that they were legitimate parts of an F# chord. In all my years of sharing music, I have never encountered an F# chord before. F#m, yes. But not F#.

So if you are looking for a new experience or want to amaze your friends, I suggest you download & transpose 'How great my joy' and play an F# chord.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,giles earle
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM

Perhaps if you thought of the chording in Gb major instead of F# you'd find it simpler? it's then just 'all the black notes' as flats when played on the piano and a very 'warm' sound results, much favoured by the likes of Roger Quilter.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM

I put quite a lot of things in F# on the guitar (using capos) as i fits my voice and the guitar tunings - but it does result in sme hostility from fiddlers and squeezers who seem to think I am doing it to spite them.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:54 AM

I think the usual reason for this is to get the best possible key for the largest possible number of voices. That's why organists learn to transpose anything into any key. Guitar-friendly keys are not always random-parishioner-friendly. A-flat major and E major are pretty common in old hymnbooks.

I hit that sort of thing all the time when accompanying people in singarounds. It's good practice to learn how to play in C-sharp on an alto flute or E-flat on a greatbass recorder. Sooner or later somebody is going to launch into "Summertime" in one or the other.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM

I was rehearsing some Christmas carols last Saturday, with some friends, in readiness for a pub concert on 23rd. Our accordion playing friend is a lovely man, and a good accordion player but - like organists - uses really dense chord textures which, frankly, muddied the music. Walking back to the car with a (very accomplished) soprano, she commented on how hard it was to sing with the accordion...


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: G-Force
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:10 PM

Nothing unusual about a chord of F# (major or seventh).

Try playing 'Nobody knows you when you're down and out' in D. The second chord will be F# (or F#7).


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:43 PM

Sure it's unusual. Just to check, I looked at 20 pages of songs in the Sing Out book. Not one F# there.

There isn't even one in the Hard Times & Blues section, although there are a couple of F#m's.

It's not an illogical chord, but it's not a usual chord, either.
======
Will, I agree with you about dense chords which muddy the music. I think the predilection for muddy sounds or pure sounds is inborn, and I was born with a desire for purer harmonies. Not that everything has to sound like 'Jingle Bells', mind you.

As a teenager I went to a Lutheran church where the organists played a Bach piece as a postlude every Sunday. (This is traditional.) All these pieces seemed to thunder to an end with a loud series of discordant blasts.

We kids thought that Mr. Bernstein was simply smashing keys at random to get it all over with. But no, Bach wrote them that way.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:14 PM

Sing Out and most other folk song collections are usually printed in keys for which the guitar chords are easy for most people to play. An F# is simple enough if you can manage bar chords: Full barred F up one fret. Or if you use the abbreviated F chord (top four strings), just move it up one fret. Abracadabra! F#! Other configurations several places on the fingerboard.

Just part of the family. . . .

Re: "discords" in Bach. This is called "dissonance" and it has been a standard part of music since the time of Monteverdi (the first person to write a dominant 7th chord into a composed piece of music). Dissonance requires resolution, so it creates tension; a feeling of "drop the other shoe!" So the final chord resolves the tension and everybody should be happy.

Simple demonstration of dissonance:   G7 to C. G7 contains a dissonant interval between the B and the F. When you play the C chord, the B moves up to C and the F moves down to E. Sigh of relief. Tension resolved.

Basic first year music theory.

Don Firth

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:20 PM

I KNOW that C E A D G is not a traditional Folk chord run , but it does appear with MONOTONOUS regularity in what I (Ex Clarinet and Sax Man ) call Standards - Five Foot Two , etc ! So you find C MAJ a bit low ? Dont capo , play it in D , and there you have it !
    D F# B E A .


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:35 AM

Isn't C E A D G the time-honored "Circle of Fifths"? That's old enough and common enough for me to consider it an element of "folk" music.

F# also has a place in the key of E. I play the Smokey Robinson classic "Shop Around" in E with four chords: E/E7 and A (alternating, for much of each verse), then an F# to B7 before resolving back to the E.

(The F# comes on the line "My momma told ME." The B7 accopanies "you better" and back to the tonic E for "shop around.")


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:39 AM

We may have wandered off track.

The F# chord in 'How great my joy' (when played in D) has nothing to do with muddiness or dissonance. It's simply an unusual sound in a very old piece. The tonality is archaic, and so the chord is not the usual.

Our gang enjoys the archaic and unusual.

D is a high key for this song. We play high to accommodate the flutes and to fit an enjoyable alto line under the melody.

Leadfingers, I'm glad you are enjoying the richness of the modern era, where people looked at the keyboard and decided to use all of those notes.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: JohnB
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:48 AM

We let our Accordion player give us the first line and opening chord/notes.
We then sing a cappella.
JohnB


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM

Have there been surveys or are there any statistics to show which key suits most voices?


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:40 AM

Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: PoppaGator - PM
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:35 AM

"Isn't C E A D G the time-honored "Circle of Fifths"? That's old enough and common enough for me to consider it an element of "folk" music."

No, the circle of fifths, starting from C would be C - G - D - A - E - B - F# - C# - G# - D# - A# - E# (enharmonically F) - B# (enharmonically C), etc.

C Em Am Dm G and C Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7 are perfectly plausible chord progressions, entirely contained in the key of C with no accidentals.

E - A - D - G is a fragment of the circle of fourths (the circle of fifths going around the other way), and one could play dominant seventh chords and resolve to the next chord, e.g., E7 - Am, D7 - Gmaj., or whatever.

"F# also has a place in the key of E. I play the Smokey Robinson classic "Shop Around" in E with four chords: E/E7 and A (alternating, for much of each verse), then an F# to B7 before resolving back to the E."

Yes, F# or F#7 is the dominant of B. This is quite a common device and it helps to break up the monotony of playing entirely diatonically.

'(The F# comes on the line "My momma told ME." The B7 accopanies "you better" and back to the tonic E for "shop around.")'

The dominant of the dominant (so common it has its own symbol, a D with an overlapping D below and to the right) is also used in "With My Little Stick of Blackpool Rock". Lots of other songs, too, but this is one I play frequently. I believe it also occurs in "It's A Long Way to Tipperary", but I'd have to play it to be absolutely sure. It is typical of songs of that era (whereby I believe George Formby, Jr. was quite a bit later).

F# major is the tonic of F# maj. (of course) and the fourth of C# maj. F#7 is the dominant (fifth) of B maj and B min. F# min.7 is the second of E maj., the third of D maj. and the sixth of A maj., which also means that the key of F# min. is the relative minor of A maj. F# half diminished, i.e., F# - A - C - E is the seventh of G maj. The relationship of these chords to the relative minors of the major keys mentioned can be worked out without much difficulty.

Diatonically speaking, leaving aside modes and harmonies built on other scales, and leaving out the names for the Gb chords, which are different names for the same ones when using tempered tuning, that's pretty much the whole scoop.

I tend to get bored with playing songs in "guitar-friendly" keys, so I try to play in all of the keys. If one plays jazz or popular music of the 1920s, '30s and '40s, one will run across chords built on all of the twelve notes of the chromatic scale.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM

Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman - PM
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:40 AM

'I believe it also occurs in "It's A Long Way to Tipperary",'

If I'm not mistaken, at the line "Good-bye, Leicester Square". I can't sight sing or write music without an instrument at hand, although I'm gradually sort of learning to sight sing.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:45 AM

it would all depend what the highest note in the song is, Mr Happy.

I can sing a high D comfortably, an E flat if necessary, and an E natural with a strong following wind, so I choose my key accordingly.

I can run through any melody in my head and ascertain what the highest note will be, ergo, the choice of key is determined accordingly.

I don't see any other way of choosing a key ...


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:51 AM

there is nothing unusual about songs with a III major in them, like "It's a Long Way to Tipperary".

there are literally hundreds of songs utilising this "effect".

( "III major" is the very useful Nashville shorthand for the major chord based on the third note of the scale btw)


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM

I wrote:
"The dominant of the dominant (so common it has its own symbol, a D with an overlapping D below and to the right) is also used in "With My Little Stick of Blackpool Rock"."

Oops! The dominant of the dominant is II 7, not III 7! That would be D7 in the key of C, i.e., D7 - G7 - C.

III 7 is the dominant of the sixth, e.g., E7 - Am in the key of C.

One can stick a dominant in before playing one of the chords within a key. II 7 and III 7 are commonly used.   I'd have to think about the others.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:22 PM

Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Murray MacLeod - PM
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:51 AM

'there is nothing unusual about songs with a III major in them, like "It's a Long Way to Tipperary".'

Yes, I agree with you, except I think it uses II 7, as I just posted. Now I'm confused and will have to play the song to unconfuse myself.

'there are literally hundreds of songs utilising this "effect".'

I suppose you're probably right. I don't think "effect" is a bad term for it, either. I generally call things like this "idioms".

'( "III major" is the very useful Nashville shorthand for the major chord based on the third note of the scale btw)'

Yes, well, in country music they tend to use more triads while in jazz and music of the era I mentioned, they tend to use more seventh chords. And major sixths in Western swing. I agree it's often useful to refer to the interval rather than the specific note name.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,arran
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM

the Corries sang Flower of Scotland in F(sharp)


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:39 AM

I wrote:

"I'd have to think about the others."

Well, I have, and my conclusion is that they are all common, except for IV 7, but one could probably find this one, too.

I7 --- Resolves to IV or iv (C7 --> F maj/min)

II7 --- Resolves to V or v (D7 --> G maj/min)

III7 --- Resolves to vi or VI (E7 --> A min/maj)

IV7 --- Resolves to bvii or bVII (F7 --> Bb min/maj). This is the only one that resolves to a chord with a root outside of the key. Is therefore a quick and painless way of modulating a whole-step downwards. However, iv (e.g., Fm in the key of C) is quite common.

V7 --- The dominant of the key. Can't get more common than that.

VI7 --- Resolves to ii or II (A7 --> D min/maj)

VII7 --- Resolves to iii or III (B7 --> E min/maj)


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:56 AM

'Have there been surveys or are there any statistics to show which key suits most voices?'

I don't know if there have been, but in my experience, most published songs are too high.

I read in a book about language that the soprano voice is twice as common as the alto, but it sure isn't true in my neighborhood. In my little church, we have only one member who is comfortable when singing a high D. But if I take a hymn and drop it about a fourth, everybody sings with gusto. This often makes the lowest note the A below middle C, which is quite low. However, our soprano tells me this is not a problem for her.

I have two theories about this. One is that composers jack up the melody line in order to fit three other parts (alto, tenor and bass under it. They do this whether or not the general population can sing the song. Then nobody ever sings the parts.

The other theory is that midwestern Americans just grow up talking lower than other people. I don't know how to check this, but I think it would make a nice master's thesis for somebody. I agree with Murray that the highest note of the song is the most important factor.

I have just finished putting together notebooks of Christmas music for my friends. One section is called 'Carols in Low Keys,' and I have found that my friends and neighbors really like them low. Even people who think they cannot sing will join in.

(The version of 'How great my joy' which has the F# chord is too high for our singers. It's meant for instruments to play. That's because flutes like high notes. It also allows space to fit a nice alto line below it. By 'nice' I mean a line which doesn't growl along with D's and C'.s)


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Stonebridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM

Yes the highest note is important, but it also depends on the range of the melody. "The First Noel", for example, has a range of one octave. This is quite small for most hymns or carols. It is usually sung in D and the octave range of the melody gives notes between top and bottom D. These are comfortable for just about everyone.
The problem is that you have to get the range such that it doesn't go too high for the altos and bases, and not too low for the tenors and sopranos. This limits the workable range to not higher than about an E or F (for bases and altos) and not much lower than about B or A for tenors and sopranos. Very few people can sing a range of two octaves. Most are happy with about one and a half max.
This gives a good workable range for a melody between about the Bb below middle C and the E an octave and a bit above it. (The men will sing an octave lower of course).
The First Noel manages this brilliantly.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Marje
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM

You're right, Leeneia, a lot of published songs are too high for most voices. In church music, including carols, the tune is often pitched for sopranos or boy-trebles, with the other parts underneath. When the general congregation attempt to join in, they are (understandably) attempting to sing the tune, and that's why many of them find it too high. I reckon that puts a lot of people off singing - they find the range uncomfortable or impossible, and they think, "Well that proves it, I can't sing".

I'm not sure how "midwest American" voices fit into this, but I think it's true that taller people tend to have lower voices. This may be why the Italians, Irish and Welsh produce so many good tenors - they're not the tallest of races. In many countries, people are now taller than their parents and grandparents were, so the average pitch may well be somewhat lower than it used to be. Another factor is that the voice tends to drop a bit as you get older.

When it comes to choosing a key, there can't be any one key that works best even for one singer, as it all depends on the range of a particular song. It's a matter (as others have said) of considering the range of the song, knowing the singer's comfortable range, and finding the key that brings these together.

Marje


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM

Thanks for the thoughts.

I agree that different songs will require different keys.

That's interesting about the voice getting lower as one gets older.

As for taller people having lower voices, maybe it's just that people who are bigger in every dimension have lower voices.

Let's have a concert sung by all the football players of America and see how low they sing.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Marje
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

I did wonder whether being big in the horizontal dimensions also contributed to lower voice-pitch, but then I thought of of Pavarotti...

Marje


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:23 PM

The general range of a person's voice depends on the size of their larynx and the length and thickness of their vocal folds, which has only a marginal relationship to their general stature. Joan Sutherland, for example, is a large woman (not chubby, but tall) and she is a coloratura soprano (highest female voice). Pavarotti, a lyric/dramatic tenor, was a man of considerable dimensions, both vertically and horizontally.

A friend of mine attended a concert some decades ago of the Don Cossack Choir. He remarked with some amusement and amazement that you sure couldn't predict what kind of voice a person had just by looking at them. In the DC choir, the five foot tall—and wide—round faced little fellow was a basso profundo and the seven foot monster with the fierce moustache and spade beard was a boy soprano. Bizarre!

I know my highest and lowest comfortable notes, and the high and low limits of my range (notes I can count on, even if I'd rather not sing that high or low), and when I learn a new song, I check the highest and lowest notes in it, then change keys if necessary to keep it as close as possible to my comfortable range.

The main thing with an accompanying instrument such as the guitar is to accompany the song in whatever key is best for your voice--not what's easiest to play on the guitar. Use a capo when necessary.

After all, the song is what matters. The accompaniment is just that. It accompanies the song.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:08 PM

You're right, Leeneia, a lot of published songs are too high for most voices. In church music, including carols, the tune is often pitched for sopranos or boy-trebles, with the other parts underneath.

This was what I was told when I when I went on a weekend course entitled "Singing for the tone deaf" The tutor was of the belief that this was the reason so many people think that they can't sing. He was brilliant and got me singing. He would accompany us on the piano and if the pitch was wrong could transpose into another key at the drop of a hat.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:15 PM

I know my highest and lowest comfortable notes, and the high and low limits of my range (notes I can count on, even if I'd rather not sing that high or low), and when I learn a new song, I check the highest and lowest notes in it, then change keys if necessary to keep it as close as possible to my comfortable range.

The main thing with an accompanying instrument such as the guitar is to accompany the song in whatever key is best for your voice--not what's easiest to play on the guitar. Use a capo when necessary.


You are right, Don, and that is fine if you are singing solo either self accompanied or accompanied by someone else on a guitar or other fully chromatic instrument.

On the other hand, if you are being accompanied by a diatonic instrument (not uncommon in Britain) or are singing with others with a different range to your own then some compromise on choice of key may well be necessary.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:48 PM

Getting back to F#, it has just occurred to me that the only song I sing in this key is Richard Thompson's "Keep Your Distance".

The way to play this is by using two Shubb capos, one all the way across the second fret, and the other used as a partial capo at the fourth fret, covering the top five strings.

Then you play as if in Drop D.

"Keep Your Distance" is a (very) unusual song inasmuch as the highest note is the VI.

It would be interesting, from a musicological point of view, to do a statistical survey on what the relative frequency of the highest note is in songs.

My guess is that the tonic (I) would be the top note about 75 % of the time, and the dominant (V) would be the top note about 20% of the time, leaving 5 % for the maverick, quirky songs which have one of the other scale notes as the top note.

Maybe this deserves a thread of its own ...


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:20 AM

So-called "classical" or "art" songs are often published in editions for low, medium or high voices. Books of pop songs, songs from musicals, cabaret songs, chansons, etc., are usually in keys without too many sharps and flats. I sometimes wonder why they're in one key or another. It's always a compromise and anyone who wants to specialize in accompanying singers will have to learn how to transpose at sight.

For example, I have a couple of books of songs composed by Friedrich Hollaender. I know that some of them were written for good female singers with high voices. Many of them go up to a high G --- not reachable for many singers and certainly not for me.

Quite a few songs by Noel Coward are published in Eb maj. In the introduction, he writes that this is his favorite key to play in. I don't know whether there's a connection.

Usually, songs will need to be transposed because of the high notes, but sometimes one will run across a song which goes too low for one's range. Some songs just have a range that's too large.

Another problem is songs that stay in the upper part of one's range for too long. John Dowland's songs are like this for me. I can reach a high D, but I can't stay up in that region for too long. While one can easily use a capo to transpose upwards, it doesn't work in the other direction,


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:04 PM

Although I don't play them much, I have a whole quiverful of penny whistles. Diatonic, one key only, but with a little legerdemain, one can sometimes get two keys out of them. My wife (plays piano and organ quite adeptly, but even equipped with a handle, they're pretty heavy to carry around) picked up a small lap harp, only to find that it was diatonic and much too limited for what she wants to do. Sharping levers, maybe?

Even the guitar, although a chromatic instrument (and like other chromatic instruments), has its limitations. It's most easily played in the keys of C, G, D, A, and E. And Am, Em, and to an extent, Dm. If you want to play in a major key, but use that key's relative minor chords as well, you run into the limitations of the minor keys. Moving from C to Am is no sweat, but from E to C#m (relatively the same change) ain't much fun. Instant bar chord (I can do bar chords okay, but in some cases I'd rather avoid them). So you can capo up.

Common knowledge to some guitarists, but you can also use a capo to transpose down:    easily done. To play in Bb, just capo on the 2nd fret and play as if in A. Or the 3rd fret and play as if in G.

I'll leave you to work out the rest of them.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Stonebridge
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM

"To play in Bb, just capo on the 2nd fret and play as if in A. Or the 3rd fret and play as if in G."

I think you will agree, Don, that it should have been 1st fret and play as if in A.

On this subject, it is a technique I often use when playing with another guitarist on a song. If in D, for example, one of us will play in normal D and the other will capo on the 2nd fret and play as if in C. This means the 2 guitars are not playing exactly the same notes in the chords and gives a much fuller and more interesting sound.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM

Right! Goofed. Thanks for catching that, Stonebridge!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:02 PM

I'm really surprised at all the babble about F# being something new.

While many creative and useful things have been claimed for the archaic "C" and the much more artisticly developed C# gave immense creative expression to many performers, the new F# just can't be denied its place.

As you can plainly see, F Sharp is a big deal, or was a few months ago.

There's probably something newer and better by now.

John


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

Well, yeah. . . .

John, does that have something to do with Moore's Law, which says that your capo moves up two frets on the fingerboard every eighteen songs, but this is counteracted by Gates' Law, which says that your strings go slack by a proportional amount?

Don F#irth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:42 AM

Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:04 PM

"Although I don't play them much, I have a whole quiverful of penny whistles. Diatonic, one key only, but with a little legerdemain, one can sometimes get two keys out of them."

I've only got one, so far, but more are on my shopping list. Some of the accidentals are easy to play, but the ones with the half-holes can be a bit iffy. When I first tried it, I thought "this doesn't work", but the next time it seemed to work pretty well.

I've started accumulating recorders, which are truly chromatic, although I'm not entirely convinced that all of the notes are in tune.    More expensive recorders would certainly be better.

"My wife (plays piano and organ quite adeptly, but even equipped with a handle, they're pretty heavy to carry around) picked up a small lap harp, only to find that it was diatonic and much too limited for what she wants to do. Sharping levers, maybe?"

There are chromatic autoharps and zithers. How about a dulcimer? It seems to me that an accordeon, with or without a piano-like keyboard, would be a good choice, too.

"Instant bar chord (I can do bar chords okay, but in some cases I'd rather avoid them). So you can capo up."

I use barre chords a lot, and have specifically practiced playing in many keys. The problem for me is the lack of low notes on the guitar and the consequent limitations of possible voicings for certain chords. I now play more "open" voicings, partly for the sake of variety, but also because of pain in my hands. By "open" I mean movable voicings without open strings, but with four or fewer notes.

I don't use a capo that often. I most often use one for flat keys where I want to play bar chords on the first fret a lot, which can be tiring for the left hand without a capo.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:47 AM

Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:04 PM

"Common knowledge to some guitarists, but you can also use a capo to transpose down:    easily done. To play in Bb, just capo on the 2nd fret and play as if in A. Or the 3rd fret and play as if in G."

What I meant was, transposing while retaining the voicings. This is important with Renaissance lute songs, which have polyphonic accompaniments. It woudld, of course, be easy to transpose the harmonies alone, but the notes won't be on the same strings. They also tend to use lots of open strings. A possible solution would be to tune the whole guitar down, but a better one for me would be to find someone with a good voice and accompany him or her.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:59 AM

although I'm not entirely convinced that all of the notes are in tune.    More expensive recorders would certainly be better.

It may not be "a given" that more expensive ones would be more precisely "in tune."

One well known and highly respected flute maker (of fairly expensive flutes) has the complaint on his website, that "all the Xb flutes are flat on the K." (I don't recall which flute key, or which note, but the point should be clear.)

While it would seem obvious to me that "someone" should tune one of the @$#!% things and thereafter make them like the one that's in tune, there apparently is "some rule" that prohibits doing this. It's quite possibly something to do with a "tradition" of which I'm not fully informed(?).

With the fipple flutes, there is significant acoustic linking between the "tube pitch" and the "mouth pitch," so it is possible to slightly "bend" the pitch of an errant note by "chin wiggles" of appropriate kind. I find some p'whistle notes much more amenable to this treatment than others, but can't say whether a competent whistler might be able to learn to do it easily (and automatically on a known instrument) wherever needed.

I would expect a similar response for a recorder; but I haven't messed with one in several decades.

John


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:00 AM

Murray - "My guess is that the tonic (I) would be the top note about 75 % of the time, and the dominant (V) would be the top note about 20% of the time, leaving 5 % for the maverick, quirky songs which have one of the other scale notes as the top note."

I tried it with the first ten songs that I sing or play that came to mind and the results are diametrically opposite to your hypothesis!
Try these with what I make the highest note in the song:

Waltzing for Dreamers - V
Please Call Me Baby (Tom Waits) - III
San Diego Serenade - VI
Four Strong Winds - IV
Summer Before the War - II
Rosemarys Sister - VI
Vincent Black Lightning - IV (perhaps bent slightly sharp even!!)
Wild Mountain Thyme - VI
Here There and Everywhere - II
Sisters of Mercy - IV

Not a tonic in sight.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:04 AM

Interesting thread. But a few things I see differently.

I come across a lot of F#s in songs - anything where the progression goes I III in D or I VI II V in A has an F# in it. The first is a pretty common blues thing (some versions of Cocaine Blues and Nobody Knows has already been mentioned) and would also occur in any song where it's used on the way to the relative minor (Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen) I III vi. American Song by Paul Simon which is straight out of Bach has the III chord in it a lot (or III7). The I VI II V is in oodles of things from Alices Restaurant to Ain't Nobodys Business if I Do)
Don is spot on when he says that the keys chosen for the songs (eg C G) decide which other chords you'll see - an E chord in a song in C would seem much more 'normal' than an F# chord just due to its familiarity (and ease of playing for many).

"I don't know if there have been, but in my experience, most published songs are too high. "

I have two thoughts on this - one on church music, one on popular music.
Most carols DO just about fit with the range of men's voices - though some do push it to the edges of its range; usually the point when you hear someone drop an octave to keep the tune! If the most common voice for a man is a baritone range (F2 - E4; the E above middle C) then there are few carols where the highest note normally printed in hymn books are outside of that range; Hark the Herald Angels traditionally has an E4 as it's top note if I remember back over the years (I think it actually is printed E3 but men will sing an octave under). A man's tenor voice is usually quoted as C3 to A4 (or C5) which makes it easily within range.
On popular song I reckon it reflects the sort of voice that catches the ear and I would guess that a lot of the voices that sing pop music tend towards the tenor range (don't mention Frank Sinatra or Bing Crosby I know they aren't tenors). As tunes are often published in the original key that the song was made a "hit" in they tend to be pitched at the high end of things. Elton John, Freddie Mercury, Sting are a few huge selling artists who come to mind.

"I have found that my friends and neighbors really like them low. Even people who think they cannot sing will join in."
I was late to take up singing (50+) and felt very self-conscious singing at the upper end of my voice because it sounded 'funny' to me and not like my usual voice. I would guess that others are similarly affected and do not wish to draw attention to themselves. The reality is usually that it sounds stranger to yourself until you get used to it than it probably does to others. (As an aside, the strange noise I used to find odd in churches when I occasionally went to them was the exaggerated slow vibrato effect - approaching yodelling and not unlike how a sheep would sing if it had the chance - which seemed to sometimes come from old ladies)

"Very few people can sing a range of two octaves. Most are happy with about one and a half max."
"Another factor is that the voice tends to drop a bit as you get older."
I don't think that I'd agree with either of those. I reckon pretty much anyone can sing two octaves. Most songs don't have a range anything like that.
I'm not a great singer but I enjoy it now having shied away from it for the first 50+ years of my life. As I have started to explore it and see what it can do (I'm only really just beginning) I realise it is a hugely more flexible instrument than I ever knew. It's range continues to expand and though I don't know how to use some of that range (yet) and some of it sounds odd I enjoy experimenting with it. My wife and I recently started having a singing lesson now and again and our teacher is very much in that vein of exploring the wonderful range of sound that you can produce (she is a great expressive singer herself).

When I started singing I would reckon that the range of my voice would go from about a low D (D2) to about C4 and the C felt a struggle so I would sing under that. I would never do it in public but I can sing up to a C5 now but without any consistency - G4 is comfortable now and I would sing it in a song, A4 is reachable. I only found the last few notes getting frustrated that I couldn't sing All Right Now in it's original key and then trying to sing Mrs Jones and Me by Counting Crows and the odd Crowded House song. But I'd pitch them both quite a bit down if I did them to be comfortable.

The tricky bit is getting a consistent sound across the different part of my voice but I'm working on that. And it will help when I start breathing :)!!

Not trying to be a smart ass here but with some practice one can radically improve ones voice. I tend to think it's more the inner fears that one has about the sound of ones own voice that is the limiting thing rather than the voice itself which is much more capable than many people think. At least in my case it does more than I thought it did when it was just sitting there unused in its box. (Sorry it's a terrible pun that just tempted me)


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM

I wrote:
"although I'm not entirely convinced that all of the notes are in tune.    More expensive recorders would certainly be better."

Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: JohnInKansas - PM
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:59 AM

'It may not be "a given" that more expensive ones would be more precisely "in tune."'

Thank you for the information. I've bought a couple of plastic recorders made by Aulos, an alto (treble) and a soprano (descant). I've ordered a sopranino, but it hasn't arrived yet. I think they are a good deal for the price. The tenor and bass recorders from Aulos are significantly more expensive.

Wooden recorders made by the companies Mollenhauer and Moeck are easily available here (Germany), as are, I suppose, Yamahas.

I've been enjoying playing them and after a couple of weeks, I nearly have the fingerings memorized. My goal is to be able to play by ear and improvise on them. I plan on practicing a lot over the next few (work-free) days.

I just picked up a sopranino (also made by Aulos), that I had ordered about a week ago. I tried it out in the music store, but I haven't got it home yet to really try playing it.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:13 AM

"I just picked up a sopranino (also made by Aulos), that I had ordered about a week ago. I tried it out in the music store, but I haven't got it home yet to really try playing it."

No, I'm not crazy; I just wrote Part II of that posting several hours after Part II.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:40 AM

About recorders: having your fingers are on the right holes doesn't guarantee that the note you will play is in tune. Slight changes in your breath, in the shape of your mouth, and the distance of your thumb from the thumb hole can change the pitch.

Such things apply to many instruments, not just to recorders.

Fortunately, there is a simple answer to this. I quote:

"Ninety percent of intonation is attention."

It is amazing what your body (fingers, mouth, breath) and your hearing can accomplish by listening to the rest of the group. Just tell your left brain (the part that thinks it has to be the boss all the time)to butt out and let the other parts of your body do it. Then listen to the group, listen to yourself and ask, 'Does this sound right?' Fix it if it doesn't.

One day I got fed up with our perpetually flat flute players. I told them we'd play a song again, and this time they 'should listen to Patty.' Patty being our guitarist. They had never done that before. There was a real improvement. It wasn't amazing; they didn't turn into James Galways before our eyes, but there still was a noticeable improvement in their playing.

Two other things about recorders: 1. on some notes, esp high ones, the fingering that the maker specifies may not be the best one. Check out the options from a fingering chart and experiment.

2. On all recorders, the note that takes just the index finger is very, very touchy, with a strong tendency to go sharp. On a soprano this is a D. Watch the distance of your thumb from the hole. Add a finger, starting at the bottom of the recorder until it's not shrieky.

I try to avoid high D's on sopranos.

It is certainly not true that a recorder (or a whistle) is merely a diatonic instrument.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:52 AM

leeneia
This might entertain you too - The Music Lesson - it's the first chapter of a book which I haven't read!


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:52 PM

interesting post Nick.

the one about the top notes , I mean.

which doesn't of course, mean that you other posts aren't interesting as well. (they always are).

I am surprised, I must admit, and will endeavour to a bit of random sampling myself to see if there is any basis whatsoever to my hypothesis.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:19 PM

Murray you're too kind. I was listening to Bringing It All Back Home tonight and Love Minus Zero is VI, as is Maggies Farm. She Belongs to Me is III.

But then I found Mr Tambourine Man and found a TONIC!


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM

Random check of a couple of song books shows that the tonic note is the highest note of songs fairly often, but frequently it's the second or third degree of the scale. Also quite often, the starting note and the song's lowest note is the root of the V chord (dominant), which then jumps up to the tonic note. I also found a fair number of songs in which the lowest note is the seventh degree of the scale (half-step below the tonic).

It all appears to be pretty random to me. I don't know if this sort of statistical analysis is very useful. You pretty well have to take it song by song.

Don Firth

P. S. Sometime way back in the late 1950s, there was a series of television shows by Leonard Bernstein explaining music to kids (also watched by a lot of adults, because Bernstein explained things very clearly and entertainingly). I especially recall one program where he went through an amazing number of pieces, classical, popular, folk, you name it, that started with the first four notes of the song "How Dry I Am." Low 5 up to the tonic, then 2 and 3. Same four pitches, and when you start altering the rhythm a smidgeon, it covers a huge amount of music.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:55 PM

Of course it's not useful, Don, it was born of idle curiosity and the age old scientific method of testing a hypothesis. *sigh* Lighten up I'm relaxing on holiday and it passed a pleasant five minutes running through a few songs for little reason apart from interest.

The Pachabel rant by Rob Paravonian which I'm sure you'll have seen is much in the same vein pointing out similarities in a lighthearted way.

When I started to play and learn some session tunes when I took up the mandolin I came across all sorts of tunes where time so alters things.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:07 PM

It seems to me that highest note depends on where we started. Not all songs start on the tonic, of course. I think the composer gets started,then composes a tune which goes about an octave - often an octave plus one note. Then they wind up on the tonic.

The excludes pentatonic tunes, naturally.

There is a Catholic song book called Breaking Bread which has tunes from any eras in it, from Gregorian to yesterday. I've just glanced about about 30 songs in it, and each one ended on the tonic.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:17 PM

Be of good cheer there, Nick. I am sufficiently light.

But there may very well be others inhabiting this thread, barefoot pilgrims, who take what some folk here say as Holy Writ. Setting the record straight, just in case.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 08:23 PM

leeneia
My idle curiosity was about the highest note rather than the last note. Given the urge for resolution in western music I'd guess that a very high percentage of tunes end on the tonic.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 08:39 PM

At least within the "Western tradition" (European music and the various genres within it and around it), it's pretty rare when a piece of music doesn't end on the tonic, both note and chord. "Resolution. Finished. Home."

Songs that don't end on the tonic tend to sound unfinished. And that can be significant. Case in point:   I Know Where I'm Going ends on the dominant with the words ". . . but the dear knows who I'll marry." Indefinite. Kind of up in the air, reflecting the sentiment of the words.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 08:59 PM

Goodness me, memories. I learnt I Know Where I'm Going in Kildonan on the Island of Arran nearly 40 years ago from a very attractive young lady called Caroline Ash whose parents ran the hotel there and whose brother used to use the adjacent barn to record music- I wonder whatever happened to her? Nostalgia eh? I sang it a few weeks ago for the first time in years.

Both Sides the Tweed by Dick Gaughan is another which is also enjoyably indefinite. From memory it's written in Am but ends on D. A friend play with likes to throw that switch of chords into a few things we do - like Star of the County Down in Em where he'll fling in the odd A at the end of a verse for a bit of a change.

Universal Soldier is another which ends on an Am chord if played in G if my memory serves me


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Stonebridge
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 11:22 AM

Cohen's "Hey That's No Way to say Goodbye" starts and ends on a chord of E major, but the song itself is ostensibly in A. (A, F#m, D, E...)

PS. These are the chords in the original songbook but of course this song has been sung in many other keys over the years. It ends on the repeated dominant chord.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 11:30 AM

Yeah, like I said, 'I think the composer gets started, then composes a tune which goes about an octave - often an octave plus one note.'

There are a lot of different ways to start a song to not many ways to end it.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

I had a full dose of music theory at the University of Washington School of Music and at the Cornish School of the Arts, so I have a fair collection of textbooks in my bookcase. About a year ago, a friend of mine gave me a copy of This is Your Brain on Music. Excellent! Most interesting and revealing. I recommend it very highly.

Along with this, some sort of basic book on music theory, such as Music Theory for Dummies should give a good idea as to what generally happens and why.

Here is a chart for the standard voice categories:    CLICKY.   Most people, with vocal training or not, generally fall into one of these categories (I, for example, am a bass, and the notes indicated for "bass" are, indeed, pretty much the limits of my range). Not everyone's voice fits these categories exactly, so your mileage may vary.

One of the advantages of knowing my range (highest and lowest comfortable notes) is that I can look at a song in a song book, check the highest and lowest notes, then figure out how far I'm going to have to shift it (usually down), then do the "musical math" to determing what key (or keys) I can sing it in.

I'm amazed at the number of singers, often experienced singers, who don't really have a clue as to what their highest and lowest notes are.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

I just checked the dots I have for Both Sides the Tweed and it is most definitely in Dm, though it is a modal Dm rather than a "classical" Dm

However, the last two bars contain the notes G E C |D which would suggest to me a chord sequence of Am7 to Dm. If you were following the harmonic rules in theory books such as those published by the Associated Board then you would make the C into a C# which would give you a chord sequence of A7 to Dm or you could even follow Renaissance (and to some extent Baroque) practice of making the final chord a major chord as well even though the mode suggests a minor chord.

So possibly it is the two minor chords that makes the final cadence feel as if it is not quite resolved as our ears have got used to a dominant seventh to tonic final cadence.

On way round this, I have seen suggested is to harmonise the final cadence with a VII to Im sequence, in this case C to Dm

Just some thoughts based on bits and pieces I've picked up over the years.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 07:49 PM

I sing it in Am. I first heard Dick Gaughan sing it with Emmylou Harris on Transatlantic Sessions and they did it in Am there - Both Sides The Tweed

On Dick Gaughan's site he has the dots and chords and there it is indeed in Dm - Both Sides the Tweed

But whichever you look at it - either from your ears or the chord structure from the bloke who wrote it - he chooses to go to D when he's in Am and chooses G in the last verse when he published it in Dm.

As with any tune how you choose to harmonise it is up to you.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Nick
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 07:57 PM

Don

My useable range of D2 to G4 is a bit of a bugger then. Am I a bassbaritenor or a baribasstenortone?


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 10:38 PM

Wow, Nick! That's pretty substantial. I can growl down to a D2 and on a very foggy day, a bit lower, but a G4 is well beyond my range.

So what are you? Pretty hard to pin down. Your range is very much that of an operatic bass, bass-baritone or baritone, although a few operatic parts call for a baritone to be able to hit an Ab above the G4 (Tonio the clown in the Prologue of I Pagliacci—final note of the aria). Whether you are a bass, bass-baritone, or baritone would depend on voice quality—how deep or light your voice sounds, and that would take a voice teacher to diagnose.

Doubtful that you are a tenor with that range. I'm not sure where they got the tenor range on the chart I linked to (I hadn't really looked at it closely), but most operatic tenors are required to have a two-octave range from the C below middle C to the C above. Choral tenors a bit less, but for an operatic tenor, that high C is considered to be "the money note." When Placido Domingo first started singing, they had him classified as a light baritone, but he had the high notes, so he opted to be a tenor, which has worked pretty well for him.

I never did get a solid diagnosis as to whether I'm a bass or a bass-baritone, but there's very little difference. I sing the bass range, but I'm not quite as "rumbly" as most basses.

So range isn't the whole story.

I really envy you your high notes!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM

Interesting. I had noticed that G chord in the final bar of Both Sides the Tweed which seems a little odd to me as the melody ends squarely on the tonic.

I copied the dots from Dick's website but did not copy the chords as I do not play guitar and I normally sing unaccompanied.

For that reason I do not really know what key I sing it in but it could well be Dm as the tune then sits squarely in my vocal range which is a straight baritone being A2 to E4. In fact one tone less than either of the two versions of baritone on the site Don linked to, though when I am well warmed up I can reach G2 but have not successfully gone above E4 - at least to my knowledge.


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Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 05:23 AM

Subject: RE: another first - F#
From: GUEST,leeneia - PM
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 10:40 AM

'[...] Fortunately, there is a simple answer to this. I quote:

"Ninety percent of intonation is attention."'

Thank you for your informative posting, leeneia. This confirms something I had noticed myself: When I know what sound I'm trying to make, it usually sounds right.

"Two other things about recorders: 1. on some notes, esp high ones, the fingering that the maker specifies may not be the best one. Check out the options from a fingering chart and experiment."

The Aulos recorders all came with a chart of fingerings, but with only a couple alternative ones. On the reverse, there's a chart with trills, which often use alternative fingerings (as I'm sure you know). I have a book with another chart with the alternative fingerings. I know can sightread fairly well without looking at the chart too often, but I haven't made a start on learning the alternative fingerings or the trills yet. I've mostly been practicing songs that I know from songbooks and not from the music I bought that's specifically for recorder.

"It is certainly not true that a recorder (or a whistle) is merely a diatonic instrument."

A recorder certainly not, but I think it would be an advantage to have in more variants, in order to have easier fingerings for more keys. My penny-whistle only has six holes (and no thumb hole), and some of the "accidentals" are difficult to finger and don't sound as good as other notes, so I would like to get more for the different keys.


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Mudcat time: 21 August 2:15 AM EDT

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