Reels, dots and hornpipes

Subject: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:30 AM

Just wrestling with Hornpipes in Noteworthy Composer.

When I listen or play hornpipes eg. Harvest Home or Boys of Blue Hill I am aware of the jerky nature of hornpipes that gives them their characteristic swing but when checking written versions ie, notation, the dots that indicate the long - short feature are sometimes missing.

Which is correct dots or no dots?

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM

Depends on what the generated notation looks like. With poor quality typesetting it's more readable if you leave them out. (In which case you have to find some other way of telling your reader that the tune is in fact a hornpipe).

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Marje
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:46 AM

Also, if you write down a hornpipe in dotted-crochet-followed-by-quaver notation, and play it stricly as written, it will come out as too jerky - it will come out as 3 plus 1 quavers, which is not the effect you want. You really want triplets (2 plus 1) and there's no very tidy way of notating that in 4/4 time. You could put it into compound (6/8) time, but that would suggest that it should be played as a jig, with different tempo and stresses.

I think that's why hornpipes are often written undotted, and the dotting left to be added by the player(s) as required.

Marje

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM

dots are correct,however they are not generally played as strictly written,In Scotland and for English country dancing,they are in my experience played more dotted.,more swing.
in Ireland they tend to be played slightly less dotted.
for solo step dancing,they are more dotted,than for the faster hoppies[Dancing in sets],.
best advice is to listen to recordings of good ceilidh bands[in Ireland Scotland and England].
many of the younger players while they are great players,dont seem to have had much dancing experience,and are not good role models.
the Tulla ceilidh band,are a good band for danceabilty,likewise any recordings of the Kilfenora ceili band,or most of the ceil bands on the Comhaltas website

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:52 AM

marje,
for some dances Nottingham Swing, Belfast Duck,heavy dotting 2 and half to 1,is really nice to dance to,really swingy.
there is no correct or incorrect,its personal taste.
2 to 1 is good also,depends on the dance,the musician should be able to do both.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: pavane
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:00 PM

If you are using my program HARMONY, you could try the "REEL to HORNPIPE" converter, which puts in the dots automatically!

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:05 PM

My preference is leave the dots out. They generally do the same with the very uneven rhythm of Swedish polskas, and notate them as straight 3/4. It's up to the musician to put the hornpipiness into it, and the place for telling them how to do it is an instructional book, CD or video.

And don't forget that some players hornpipify reels.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:32 PM

yes Paul,but the problem with leaving them out is that some berks,then think they are played dead even.
I even had one say to me once, oh well thats how the music was written:undotted.
yes, and you are quite right some players play certain reels slightly dotted,but reels can be successfully danced to dotted or undotted,in my experience hornpipes cant be danced to well, undotted.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:33 PM

Some tunes are hybrids - can be played flat as reels or dotted (to a greater or lesser extent) as hornpipes. Some are definitely more comfortable as one or the other.

Leaving the dots out saves a lot of space when publishing.

Paws

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Gedpipes
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:35 PM

I hope you dont mean Paul is Berk Cpt Birdseye? ;-)

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:41 PM

So, leave all the dots out and add a rider that hornpipes are jerky - some more jerky than others?

Thanks

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:10 PM

Looking through tunebooks there does not seem to be total agreement as to whether to notate hornpipes dotted or undotted. However my observation is that the majority notate them undotted. That's my preference FWIW and that's how I notate them. For the reasons given above - that the degree of dotting varies between players.

As an interesting aside, at a session the other day, someone produced the dots for a jig (I can't remember the title) but it was claimed to be a Morris Dance tune. When they started playing it the tune was clearly "Roxburgh Castle" which I have heard played both as a hornpipe (dotted) and as a reel.

Thus do tunes evolve.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:37 PM

Well well, I have been playing Roxburgh Castle twice through like a strathspey then twice as a reel. Much fun

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:48 PM

Dots are antiquated. Playing with "swing" is commonly annotated "straight" but the feel
can't be. I see hornpipes as being more 12/8 like jazz with not quite as much swing but
still there for dancing. The hornpipe should have a bounce to it unlike the reel which
is more even although the Irish player has a slight swing in playing them.

Dotted eighths and sixteenths were how they used to annotate ragtime and early jazz figures. This was discontinued because they intimated a jerky rhythm as used in classical music. "Swing" changed it all.

I am in favor of "straight" annotation without dots and indicating that the feel should be "Irish". This can only be gained by listening to the Tradition.

Frank

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:12 PM

Paul Burke said,"And don't forget that some players hornpipify reels."

In North America, many players seem to "reelify" hornpipes. Listen to a bluegrass band play Red Haired Boy.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM

Hornpipes are definitely not always played dotted. They aren't always played at the same speed either. They are just tunes that you use for dances, and there are lots of different types of dance that need different playing styles. Even then it's sometimes a matter of opinion which is the "best" way to play a tune for a particular dance...

Some hornpipes like the dotted style better than others. I'd never play Stoney Steps dotted, but by no stretch of the imagination is it a reel.

Hornpipes and rants are fairly interchangeable too, depending on how you play them. I often play Roxburgh Castle after Morpeth Rant, and I've heard Soldier's Joy and The Coleford Jig (no it's not a jig) played in slow dotted hornpipe style.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: treewind
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:22 PM

Sorry, that was me with temporary loss of cookie.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:37 PM

Stringsinger,I think the feel should be Scottish not Irish,and that the annotation should be marked .
oh yes, and most of the Irish reels are Scottish in origin.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:02 PM

Well its all clear then

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:36 PM

If you're playing solo, then do what you feel the tune needs. After all it's your interpretation of the tune.

Obviously different rules must apply if you're playing in a group.

Peter

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:56 PM

"I think the feel should be Scottish not Irish"

For hornpipes, the feel should be English :)

The problem is, the term "hornpipe" is fairly imprecise, and its meaning varies according to locality and period. In some areas they're played fairly smoothly, in others they're emphatically dotted. The term also encompasses tunes in 3/2 time, which are nothing like the modern idea of a hornpipe.

Compare the "Sailor's Hornpipe" with "Stoney Steps", the feel is completely different.

This isn't much help if you're trying to decide how to play a particular tune, all you can do is decide for yourself what sounds best, and if you're playing it for a dance, see what suits the dance best.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:32 PM

Howard Jones says "In some areas they're played fairly smoothly, in others they're emphatically dotted".

This may be true of some areas, I don't know, I think he should specify. I would think generally the truth has ben the opposite of this, historically. That any given player has tunes he or she plays in the more dotted fashion, and others in a more even way. For example, the average fiddler you'd meet in a pub in England nowadays if asked to play classic hornpipes like Soldiers Joy or the Sailors(the College) would play with the quavers of fairly even lenghth. If asked to play the Harvest Home or Fisher's, by contrast, they would be more likely to play dotted(or more strictly,not dotted as such but with the first quaver of the pair twice as long as the second, not three times).

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:16 AM

it depends what ytou are using them for.
my experience is this,solo step dancing slow ,dotted about 2 and a quarter, 2 and half to one .
nottingham swing 2 and a half to one.
fast irish hoppies[keel row seems ideal].2 to one.
most of the classic hornpipes for dances like stack of barley,have a stamp to them[one two three]often at the end of a phrase.
Scottish players[in my experience][[I used to play regularly for Burns nights and scottish societies]] tend to swing them a bit more,and I think thats great for dancing,they are very particular about their dottedness are the Scots, their strathspeys often have reversed dottedness,and are heavily dotted.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:18 AM

The thing is this, as some of you may have guessed - and been round the same problem:

A collection of us are planning to start a beginners tune session. Most of this collection have never played together before. Although we have some tunes in common they don't sound quite the same. I have much enjoyed and valued the Beginners Sessions at Whitby and Shrewsbury and was able to join in much more at Shrewsbury because they put the dots on the website.

And so, like quite a few other sessions we decided to make a tune book, put it on the net and print it off for the night.

I know Greg has councelled against this but we are a committee of mostly inexperienced tune players not experienced musicians with a great understanding of style, and we feel this will be the best bet.

And so to hornpipes and reels. Some books dot 'em and some don't. Some explain why, pretty much as above. The simplest thing seems to miss of the dots and write something on the bottom of the page.

Thanks to all

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: treewind
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:00 AM

Print them without the dots and let the musicians get used to playing them not quite as written. They'll be confused at first but at least they'll learn the principle that what's written on the page does not always precisely specify how if should be played.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:03 AM

no, print the dots and then explain[as Matt Crannitch does in his fiddle tutor] that they are open to interpretation

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 04:16 AM

Greg, to generalise wildly I believe that in the South of England hornpipes would generally be played more smoothly, and quite fast for stepdancing, whereas in the North they would often be played more dotted. But "dotted" often misrepresents how they are played, often it's just with more emphasis on the first beat, rather than giving it a significantly longer value (which may be what you were saying).

I've heard Fisher's played both ways. I don't have it to hand, but I think Barry Callaghan's "Hardcore English" gives two versions, one dotted and one not. But most of the hornpipes in that book are shown undotted.

The fact is that traditional music has subtleties of rhythm which are very difficult to reproduce in standard musical notation. The choice is either to notate it in great detail, which may be of academic interest but is almost unreadable for the purpose of playing the tune, or simply to regard the notation as a basic framework for the tune.

To understand how to play it, you really have to listen to a lot of music, ideally including traditional as well as modern players, to get the "feel" of it.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

I'm with the notate undotted and add a note about interpretation but I think it is a matter of personal choice and neither way is more correct, IMHO. If you are running a beginners tune session, then at the session itself, you can supplement your comments in the notation by playing the tunes through first and explaining how you interpret the notation.

One of the most memorable comments about written notation I heard came from a classical recorder player who was conducting a day workshop at a recorder society branch. She waved the score of the piece we were working on and said "This is not music. What you are playing is" The point she was making was that written notation is always open to interpretation. What she was trying to explain was how that particular piece was normally interpreted and on that particular occasion we were not getting it.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

I was confused by the American dance 'Homassassa Hornpipe', which is definitely danced to an undotted reel. But I suspect 'hornpipe' means something different over there.
Then of course there are those 'other' hornpipes; 3/2 are they? What step are you supposed to dance to them? Is this a case of same name for a different thing.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

I say publish undotted. Then it's up to the musician kicking the tune off. Writing them out dotted has the inevitable disadvantage that a clasically trained player will tend to play them as written, and that really doesn't work for a hornpipe.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:46 AM

The choice is either to notate it in great detail, which may be of academic interest but is almost unreadable for the purpose of playing the tune, or simply to regard the notation as a basic framework for the tune.

Not entirely novice-friendly, that. Put it this way, I've learnt Harvest Home undotted - and Soldier's Joy. (If I was meant to play 3/1 why didn't you write dotted-quaver-semiquaver? If I was meant to play 2/1 why didn't you write it in triplets?)

H'mph. I'll have to unlearn 'em now...

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM

I say publish undotted. Then it's up to the musician kicking the tune off. Writing them out dotted has the inevitable disadvantage that a clasically trained player will tend to play them as written, and that really doesn't work for a hornpipe.[quote greg stephens]
but then publish undotted and the classically trained player will play them even,and that doesnt work for a hornpipe either.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: JohnB
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:31 AM

I'm really glad this is all clear now. The question still remains though, are hornpipes REALLY Folk Music? :)

Speaking as not the greatest sight reader in the world, I totally agree with Anahata ....Print them without the dots ....They'll be confused at first but at least they'll learn the principle that what's written on the page does not always precisely specify how if should be played.....
I also agree with Cap'n Birdseye ....no, print the dots ...

I agree with Anahata about the interpretation, which is a commom problem I have with people who really read music. (If you have ever heard the music to the Parting Glass played straight you will understand)
I personally though understand and read the music better for Hornpipes if it is written dotted.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Paul Davenport
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM

I spent a lot of time looking at hornpipes for some rather complex reasons. The result was intended to be a diatribe which I wanted to use to assault the examination board who asserted that playing a 'simple folk tune' would only get a minimum mark. The outcome turned into a detailed analysis of the hornpipes in the Joshua Burnett Ms. 1840 (ish). As a result the paper was presented at the Fiddle Conference at SOAS in 2005.
Basically, the hornpipe is a much more complex proposition than merely 'dotted' or 'undotted' (although I expect you already knew that). It starts off in 3/2 then suddenly changes to 2/2 during the late Georgian period. It acquires dots much later and whoever noticed its self-destructive tendency to mutate into 12/8 is pretty much on the money. Its a real workhorse of a tune-type and deserves much more playing than it gets. How you play it is actually a product of your geographical and mental location - it defies description. Dave Shepherd called it the 'Quintessential English tune' and I think this is also spot on. Please feel free to visit my website and download a copy of the paper (.pdf)
http://www.hallamtrads.co.uk/research
cheers,
Paul

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:14 PM

Thanks Paul,

what am I doing in such company? My problem is as confronted by many above. I think we all recognise that the written music and the live performance and related but not the same.

If I adopt the dots policy and put a tune into Noteworthy Composer the outcome sounds quite like the jerky hornpipe I play. If I adopt the no dots policy but give the written advice - play it a bit jerky - it will probably get people thinking a bit more about the tune. Is that right?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:24 PM

no, make notes of the names of the tunes,then google to see if there are any versions to listen to. 2 to one is not perfectly right but its probably the easiest,to start with,and is better than playing them even,I reckon its about 2 and a quarter to one
listen ,listen.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:01 PM

"Not entirely novice-friendly, that"

If novices are hoping to learn to play folk music from notation, they're sadly mistaken. The only way to learn it is to listen.

The notation will give you the shape of the tune, but won't tell you how to play it properly. If it's written undotted and you play it exactly as written, it will be too smooth. If it's written dotted and you play it as written, it will be wrong the other way. It should be somewhere in between - to find out exactly where you have to listen to a lot of musicians. There's no right answer either, it depends on geographical origin, personal preference and the needs of the dancers.

Just because this music is simple doesn't mean it's easy to play.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:24 PM

It sounds a bit like which is the most important leg of a three legged chair.

I cannot pick up tunes by listening either to people or recordings and I cannot read music at any speed. But somewhere between the three - people, recordings and dots I can play quite a few tunes - about 80 at present.

In seeking to organise a beginners session I feel I need to offer the three legs of the chair.

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:22 PM

Paul's link, fixed

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:51 PM

What I meant about listening was not to do with picking up the tunes - the notation is fine for that - but about how to play them. You can get the basis of the tune from the notation, and its a perfectly good way to learn tunes. But that's all - it won't give you the subtleties which make a tune come alive, you can only learn those from listening to other musicians and how they interpret the bare tune.

It's absolutely fine to offer a beginners session a tunebook to get them started - in fact, it's probably essential. But whether you write the hornpipes dotted or not, neither will quite get across how they should be played. To move beyond the novice stage the musicians will need to do more than just learn the notes.

Best of luck with it.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

it won't give you the subtleties which make a tune come alive

Fair enough, but the difference between Harvest Home with and without dots is a bit more than a subtlety - one sounds like something you could dance to, the other sounds like a Mozart piano finger-stretcher. They're effectively two different tunes.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:42 AM

Well, Harvest will be in the tune book probably without dots and I suspect we will play it quite dotty. So bring your whistles and flute to the Beech Phil, the last Tuesday of the Month starting January 27th, and we will see where it takes us

Thanks to all

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Marje
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:15 PM

I don't think it matters greatly how you write hornpipes. Its simply easier and less messy to write them out undotted.

And it's not quite fair to say that classical players will stick rigidly to what's written, and thus get it wrong. In, for example, Handel's Messiah, some parts are written as dotted but played and sung as double-dotted (even jerkier) which is probably close to what was meant at the time. The decision on the time-values for each performance is made by the conductor, and the musicians adapt according to his interpretation.

Marje

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Helen
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:41 PM

Thanks for this discussion, it makes me feel better about having been confused about hornpipes.

Len in Chorlton, can you play the tunes on a midi keyboard and see how the notation turns out in the software? That would be interesting, seeing how the software interprets it.


And thanks, too, for the new additions to the English technical language of music: hornpipiness, hornpipify, reelify, "play it quite dotty", etc

When I first started learning tunes I bought a book called "Begged, Borrowed or Stolen" which had hand transcribed session tunes which were wonderful for beginners or more advanced players.

I just Googled and found these ABC tunes, and the first few are from the book:

Ceolas ABC tunes: Begged, Borrowed or Stolen

and some more here:

Ceolas ABC tunes: Begged, Borrowed or Stolen

There are even more on the site.

I believe that Mudcatter Bob Bolton was somehow involved in the book's production.

From memory I think the notes were undotted for the tunes you are referring to. Word of mouth tradition was that you play them NOT as written, by listening to other musicians or recordings.

Helen

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:46 PM

Pip, the point I've been trying to make is that the dots don't convey the correct time value, if you treat them strictly as meaning 1 1/2 times the value of the preceding note. Writing them undotted is equally incorrect (but quicker to write).

The correct value lies somewhere in between, although what is "correct" by no means fixed. The only way to understand this is to listen to other musicians.

I'm not saying the notation has no value, just that it does not fully convey the feel of the music, whether dotted or not. To get the feel you have to listen. Once you get that feel for the music you can apply your own judgement on how much "dot" to give it. But the notation won't tell you.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:04 PM

no non no,a thousand times no,hornpipes should be written dotted.
jigs are not played exactly as written either.
hornpipes written dotted is closer to how they are played ,than to write them undotted.writing them dotted is the closest portrayal of how they are played,and lets face it there is regional variation in the dottedness.
the purpose of musiscal notation,is to be as accurate as possible ,writing them undotted is not closer than writing them dotted 3 to 1,is closer to 2 to 1[by 2],than writing 0 to 1 or undotted.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Helen
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 01:14 AM

No I was wrong about Begged, Borrowed AND (not "or") Stolen: there are dots on the music, i.e. the notes are "dottified" (another new word), for the hornpipes. It's a long, long time since I used the book, so it's not surprising that I forgot.

Helen

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:45 AM

writing them undotted is not closer than writing them dotted

Hear hear. Transcribing Harvest Home - to take an example close to my heart - you've got three choices:

1. Write it in 2-1 crotchet/quaver pairs (DUM-pa DUM-pa). This means that the triplets stop being triplets and the time signature goes to 12/8.

2. Write it in 3-1 dotted quaver/semi-quaver pairs (DUM... pa-DUM...pa). No change to the triplets or the time sig.

3. Write it in straight quavers (Dum dum, Dum dum).

As I understand it, both 1 and 2 sound something like what it's supposed to sound like. So why should we prefer option 3, which doesn't?

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:08 AM

If your dots program is up to it, can you put the dum note in bolder face, or ever-so-slightly-larger than the dee note?

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM

Pip Radish - the reason you don't need to dot the notes is because ALL of them are dotted. With reels, jigs or marches, you will often have some notes dotted and some straight, so you have to say which is which. The only variety you get in hornpipes is when you go into triplets.