BS: WTF was he thinking?

Subject: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:16 AM

I still support him and I do not regret voting for Obama. I really believe he is the right person to be there right now, but what the feck was he thinking when he asked Pastor Warren to give the inaugural invocation? The man has equated a woman's right to choose to the Holocaust, LBGT with pedophilia and incest, and opposes stem cell research. Many, many of Obama's supporters SUPPORT those three very important issues. I know he's not perfect and he said he'd reach across the aisle, but he has basically invited this person into our homes. Coming on the heels of Prop8, esp. this is like a slap in the face to all who support LBGT rights, nevermind women's rights and health research that could save millions of people. I suppose if he had to mis-step, this will be seen as minor, but I do not like it and am disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:27 AM

Well, he's got the left and the middle, now he wants the religious right. Surprised? He's a politician. And a smart one, too. The number one issue in the US right now is the economy, and plenty of people with right-of-center social views are open to progressive ideas regarding economics, etc. And you may want to think twice before you demonize people who don't agree with you on some very contentious issues.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:40 AM

......and nothing but a politician...you know, like a used car salesman...sorry,.. the country bought a lemon!

Why does this surprise anyone???..Perhaps, 'More of the same'?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:09 AM

I'm glad that I'm not the person who has to live inside you. It would be taxing, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:45 AM

What Obama was thinking, I believe, was exactly what he's been talking about all during his campaign: reaching beyond our political divisiveness and inviting dialogue with those with whom we have strong disagreements.   Rick Warren is not the only religious leader invited to participate in the Inauguration ceremonies, and he won't be speaking on partisan political issues. He'll deliver the invocation, which will no doubt be worded in a pretty ecumenical fashion.

Obama has said he welcomes support from Evangelical Christians, and quite a few of them, especially the younger ones, are far less authoritarian and more progressive (or at least moderate) politically than even Rick Warren.   Obama does not want to cede the whole of "born-again" Christianity to the Right wing of the Republican Party.   

While he is quite reactionary on some issues, Rick Warren has diverged strikingly from other conservative Christian Republicans such as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and James Dobson.
He gives away 90% of his income and does not preach or buy into the meme that "God wants you to be successful, so being rich is a sign of God's favor."   His ministry emphasizes responsibility for helping those in need, both in our country and in other parts of the world. And he is trying to get the church to be proactive in fighting global warming.

More to the point (re his being part of Obama's inauguration), Rick Warren is probably seen by most Christian conservatives as the #1 religious leader in our country. His presence at Obama's inauguration -- which, BTW, is opposed by most of the far-right Christian leaders -- probably makes conservative Christians more open to wartching the inauguration and just maybe giving Obama a chance.      I'll bet a lot of them may hear Obama's inaugural address who would not have, had Obama had the invocation given by someone they perceive as "liberal."

Obama will not be able to bring about much of anything in the way of progressive change if he has 30 to 40% of the country fearing or hating him and what they expect his "agenda" to be.   I think the inclusion of Warren (a far better choice that that of Franklin Graham by Dubya) sends a strong message of unification.

But Thom Hartmann explains this view better than I can:
Thom Hartmann on Rick Warren as Obama inaugural invocation deliverer

I'd been thinking pretty much along these lines, in spite of hearing mostly bashing from liberals, the GLBT community, and many Democrats.   Then when I tuned in to Thom's radio show this morning, he put my perception of it into better words than I had come up with.   Give a listen, then tell me if you see this choice as a "WTF!!??.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:54 AM

Mr Morris and Guest are correct, the inclusiveness of Mr Obama's administration does not run to the most important field....POLITICS!

Where are the voices demanding a new way forward?
Capitalism on the verge of collapse and no "left wing" or socialist input?
"Government of all the talents" my arse! It's nothin' but the same old story.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:50 AM

I tried listening to that and it went on and on about a lot of other stuff.

I think it's very worrying - some (and I'm sceptical) reactionary alleged Christians may themselves be good people, but it seems to me that their leaders are pretty close to wholly evil. This one may be one of the less evil ones, but who sups with the devil should use a long spoon.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:03 AM

From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:54 AM

Mr Morris and Guest are correct, the inclusiveness of Mr Obama's administration does not run to the most important field....POLITICS!

Not only am I right(AGAIN), but not given to the insane O-yawn-o mania rhetoric.


From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:09 AM

I'm glad that I'm not the person who has to live inside you. It would be taxing, to say the least.

Are you saying you're into hearing voices, of creatures in you??

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:39 AM

Letting the man give a speech is entirely consistent with Obama's commitment to wide-spectrum poltiics. And let me point out thatbeing a better politican is why we hired him. You guys are projecting your own internal catastrophes on the world and not reasoning the thing out. He's not appointing Warren to something; he's merely demonstrating that, unlike Bush's discordant and half-crazed gang, he is not excluding other points of view than his own. This shows him to be a bigger person than the half-assed reaction-driven partisan crowds who are so anxious tot hrow stones that they will throw them at imaginary people.

It is likely that as he breaks trail through the jungle of deceit and irresponsibility left behind in the national garden by Bush and company, he will disappoint some people some of the time. I don't see how it can be avoided.

But keep some perspective, here, and I think you will find he will do as good a job as any man alive could do in the position he is in.
GfS and Ake notwithstanding--neither of them have suggested any policies or programs that would make a difference, but have limited themselves to caterwauling their melancholy songs of disgruntled bad-mouthery ad nauseam, like a pair of wet and homeless alleycats in estrus in some dark trash-strewn alley of life.




A

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM

"If you've got a problem that's growing at
a rapid rate, then you need a solution
that will grow even more rapidly. For
instance, HIV/AIDS is growing at an
incredibly fast rate in the world. Yet
thank God, the Church is outgrowing
the disease,so more and more believers
can help minister to those with HIV/AIDS."
~ Rick Warren

Is this the "dangerous extremism" that people here are claiming this man represents?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:51 AM

For those who consider a religious component important, they may be pleased. I would prefer the religion to be excluded from the matters of state, so I won't listen to Warren. The process of making government is like that old sausage analogy--something you may not want to watch.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:55 AM

I am not demonising anyone. Some of you may be right, I suppose. I have been pleased with the pragmatic approach Obama has taken, but this one, again, in light of the recent passage of Prop8, really doesn't go down well, at all. He can reach across the aisle, surely, without excluding a strong base of his own supporters.

When someone has as much influence as Warren, it can be dangerous for those he opposes, imo. That influence is evident in this article.

Genie, I tried listening to that, but mostly heard commercials and a bunch of stuff about Bush. How many minutes in is it where he talks about this?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:58 AM

Warren's largest black-mark in the eyes of the left is that he was "one of the generals" in the mobilization to overturn the State of California's Constitutional right for people of the same sex to marry each other. In doing so, he pl,aced himself squarely in the anti-gay camp in the eyes of millions who interpret his position as rank discrimination and denial of core civil status.

From this point of view, choosing Warren was a poltiical error. On the other hand, there are probably more right-wing churchies in the United States than there are LGBT, so perhaps it was a political tradeoff, and a bit of the old sausage-manufacturing. Giving someone space to give a speech is not an endorsement ofhis other views.

A

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:03 PM

Quite like a bit of "extremism" myself, but this administration is not really inclusive......It's just window dressing..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:13 PM

"...but what the feck was he thinking when he asked Pastor Warren to give the inaugural invocation?"


                Any one of these buffoons is pretty much like the next. As long as your going to do something as stupid as stand around and stare at your shoes while somebody gives an inaugural invocation, what does it matter who gives it?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:39 PM

From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:09 AM

I'm glad that I'm not the person who has to live inside you. It would be taxing, to say the least.

Are you saying you're into hearing voices, of creatures in you?? GtS

Ah! It is as I feared: You don't listen to what you say. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:52 PM

Genie's comments regarding Warren are accurate. Richard's dark mutterings about the 'wholly evil' nature of evangelical leadership notwithstanding, there is broad diversity of opinion among self-described evangelicals on social, political and economic issues.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:01 PM

Rig:

Just you watch, mate. Watch Obama during Warren's speech. I will bet you ten dollars he does not perform as you have described. He may glance at his shoes, but that will not characterize what he does. He will be...are you ready for this?...PAYING ATTENTION.


A

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:10 PM

"but have limited themselves to caterwauling their melancholy songs of disgruntled bad-mouthery ad nauseam, like a pair of wet and homeless alleycats in estrus in some dark trash-strewn alley of life."

Whoaah!!! What spectacular and devastating verbiage. Even Woody Allen would be reduced to a brief stunned silence by that, followed by some sarcastic but hopelessly inadequate attempt on his part at a clever comeback. Amos, you have done it again. You really should write for the New Yorker or some such prestigious periodical.

I, for one, am rather miffed that Obama has yet failed to appoint a single chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, baboon or monkey to participate in either his cabinet or his inauguration. He has shut out the primates of America (I use the expression "primate" in the colloquial sense...not the literal one...since human beings are themselves primates by literal definition...anyway, you know what I mean.) Oh sure, it would offend some people if he did that. Well, tough! You can't be president without offending someone unless you do absolutely nothing at all....and then even THAT will offend some people.

The real mystery here is whether Obama can EVER manage to do anything that will make the few people here who are dead set against him happy or some of those who adore him unhappy. Either way it's highly unlikely. It would require them altering a fixed mental habit and abandoning their faith. But.....anything is possible, right?

Is the world you see the real world? Or is it the world of your imagination?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:16 PM

I think you have envisioned Obama's reaction to the upcoming speech by Warren correctly, Amos. I've noticed that about Obama...he does pay close attention to people when they're talking, and that's a good sign.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:35 PM

"He may glance at his shoes, but that will not characterize what he does. He will be...are you ready for this?...PAYING ATTENTION."


                Why would anybody in his/her right mind pay attention to Rick Warren?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

He was thinking UNITY and (probably, "use a man's big rep to move it forward." He's gonna have to honey up to some weitd bedfellows, but he might not get slimy if he's smart about it.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM

Obama is facing the worst crisis since the great depression, and he can not afford to overlook any group that can help heal this awful load of crap that the Moron has piled on us.

I'm also wondering about him, but I'm willing to give him a chance. Now, Guest for sanity, if you have some evidence to back up what you are saying, let's hear it.Otherwise, what you are spouting is nothing more than an opinion; worth no more than anyone else's .

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM

People of goodwill pay full attention to whomever they are dealing with at the time, Rig.

(This is rare, however, because most people's love is extremely conditional...they reserve it only for those who meet their momentary approval or their fickle sense of need.)

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:03 PM

Whew ...... he's not even president yet and it's already starting.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:25 PM

I'd like to weigh in, but Genie has already said just about everything I've got. Almmost...

During the months and years after Katrina, I met hundreds of incredibly selfless and highly-energized volunteers who traveled at their own expense to perform hard labor rebuilding the homes of devastated families. Almost every single such person was affiliated with some kind of church, and while a few were mainstream-Protestant or Catholic, the vast majority were more-or-less fundamentalist/evangelical types.

I have a different set of ideas about a number of social-justice issues than most such folks ~ and really different ideas about warfare ~ but I recognize that they are commited to following their consciences at last as seriously as I am, whatever our differences.

It should NOT be assumed that the churches of the United States will always be persuaded to make common cause with right-wing politicians promoting economic and social inequality. Such alignments can change, and in fact MUST change, and soon. For such a seismic social shift to occur, of course, will demand a virtual bombardment of psychological shock and awe. I think Obama is moving in a very interesting and potentially very positive direction.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:45 PM

"...most people's love is extremely conditional...they reserve it only for those who meet their momentary approval or their fickle sense of need.)"


                When it comes to religion, it seems to me like they reserve it only for those who meet their monitary approval...

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:10 PM

"I, for one, am rather miffed that Obama has yet failed to appoint a single chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, baboon or monkey to participate in either his cabinet or his inauguration."

The problem, Little Hawk, is that Bush used them all up. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:25 PM

I have never believed that issues like abortion, homosexual marriage, etc, should be "political", we all have personal views on issues like these which have really nothing to do with politics.

I also think that it is probably a good thing that Mr Obama has put together an administration with diverse personal views.....but... but is Bobert the only Obamaite who is concerned about the political make up of the administration?

Have your brains just stopped working?
This was to be a new beginning, old style politics were to be swept away....CHANGE>>>>CHANGE>>>>>CHANGE. Then where are the progressives?Kuninich,Nader and a few more that I probably have never heard of.
Why are they not contributing to the agenda of change? They are the only ones who can bring it about...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:41 PM

Poppagator, I agree with you.

Akenaton - yes, the progressives are getting stiffed (so far), but I never believed Obama was any kind of far-leftist. His more specific statements have generally been more towards the center.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM

"Subject: RE: Popular Views: the Obama Administration
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:24 PM

ANother "elevated" viewpoint on the inaugural speech shtick."

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:25 PM

sorry, the clicky did not carry along...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98458935

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:28 PM

So, Don, are you saying that 8 years of the Bush administration has given chimps a bad name?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:45 PM

I'm afeared so, Little Hawk, They are present in any administration but in the most recent one they came out of the closet with a vengeance. I would imagine there was tremendous hooting and thumping of chests, not to allude to grooming, going on whenever a group of them were alone.

We just can't take a chance again.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:50 PM

Poppagator, I agree with you as far things needing to change in that area and I hope you are right about it being a possibility. Thanks for your take on it.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:26 PM

Oh, so, Ebbie? NOW who's flinging poop?!? I find it disconcerting and unjust that a quasi-chimp in office for 8 years should ruin things for REAL chimps to show their stuff. It's an outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:49 PM

LH - Maybe you could make a case for Bonobos. I suspect they're a little smarter than Bush, and a case could be made that it would be an up-grade to include a few of them in the cabinet.

Subject: BS: Are You Nuts, Barack???
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:19 PM

Hey, I don't undertand this one one bit... Obama has asked homophoblic fundamentalist preacher, Rick Warren, to do a prayer at the swearing in ceremonies...

What the Hell is this about???

B~

---

Messages from duplicate thread transferred in.

Subject: RE: BS: Are You Nuts, Barack???
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

That we all fall short of the Glory of God?

Maybe he just liked his book -

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:39 PM

Sorry, I was late to open this thread but...

...Hey, I understand that Obama wants to be inclusive but I don't see him reaching out to the KKK...

I could appreciate if Obama were to meet privately with Warren but, geeze, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this homophopic fundamentalist being involved in the inaguration...

Really bugs me but then again I live in Falwell country...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:08 PM

Wow, Falwell country, that must be pretty challenging. But what does all of this have to do with the KKK?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 09:18 PM

Well, if Obama can reach out to a homophobic fundalmentalist Christain Right preacher than the KKK can't be far behind...

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:44 PM

well ... the KKK did indorsed Obama for president back in the election campaign ... as Imperial Wizard, Ronald Edwards stated that, "anything is better than Hillary Clinton."

jeeeezuz .... WTF is going on???


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:47 PM

... well that was the sick joke going on back in thoise days ... but, what the hell ... I guess Obama can pick who he chooses to swear him in ... it could be worse.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:57 PM

I didn't know the KKK endorsed Obama. I agree with #6--WTF is going on?

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 01:22 AM

The invocatin is not the swearing in.

A

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 01:36 AM

yeah ... the invocation is like a blessing upon the the new regime or government. That makes it even more like.. WTF is he thinking.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Genie
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 02:31 AM

The invocation is also not a "speech" really. At least it's not supposed to be. And I really don't expect Warren to bite the hand that invited him by turning it into any sort of partisan or sectarian diatribe.

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: Cllr
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:56 AM

amazing thread, just a thought from a uk observer,

Does this mean the republicans were very very wrong about him trying to seek a way forward by working on a partly consensual basis, wow they are going to be upset, and it looks like the democrats are going to be upset for exactly the same reason!!
Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: WTF was he thinking?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 05:17 AM

Boiled or fried Amos?